Re: [Bibdesk-users] text editor integration
On 7 Oct 2007, at 11:56 PM, Adam R. Maxwell wrote: The topic of word processor integration comes up periodically, and I'd also like to see more integration with word processor-type programs. However, if wishes were horses, then beggars would ride ;). I explored Mellel integration at one point, but I personally can't justify a license for Mellel to work on it, or the time it would require. If anyone is interested, I can share the Mellel SDK and some correspondence with its developers, and you can have your own subversion branch to play with. Join the developers list and we'll help you get started; that's how I learned Objective-C and Cocoa. Note also that Pages's XML format is documented, so in theory you could scan a pages document and insert citations at the appropriate places. Tom Counsell's ruby script does this, for instance. Maybe someone (not me!) could be persuaded to work on this via a grant? Anyone interested in pursuing that? I'd guesstimate 120 hours full time for someone familiar with Cocoa in general, maybe 80 for someone familiar with BibDesk itself; those figures are strongly dependent on the desired feature set. For my organization, that might translate to $12-18K at the low end, so students are probably a better bet for this. regards, Adam Just curious (as I'm not intending to work on this either). But what exactly would be needed to be done for integration with Mellel? I personally think that most of the required hard work (i.e. everything that requires detailed knowledge of Mellel's proprietary file format) would be the responsibility of Mellel, not a reference manager. Also as they already support different citation managers, and it's stupid to let each one redo that job. While the Mellel developers kbnow thier format, so with their existing code that job would be infinitely easier. From that POV, I would say BibDesk already has almost all that is needed. Christiaan - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now http://get.splunk.com/ ___ Bibdesk-users mailing list Bibdesk-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bibdesk-users
Re: [Bibdesk-users] text editor integration
On 18.10.2007, at 15:14, Christiaan Hofman wrote: On 7 Oct 2007, at 11:56 PM, Adam R. Maxwell wrote: Adam Just curious (as I'm not intending to work on this either). But what exactly would be needed to be done for integration with Mellel? I personally think that most of the required hard work (i.e. everything that requires detailed knowledge of Mellel's proprietary file format) would be the responsibility of Mellel, not a reference manager. Also as they already support different citation managers, and it's stupid to let each one redo that job. While the Mellel developers kbnow thier format, so with their existing code that job would be infinitely easier. From that POV, I would say BibDesk already has almost all that is needed. I can't answer those questions, but I just want to say what I probably already said earlier: If someone is interested in doing this and money is the problem, I'm more than willing to help in setting up a donation page and see that we get some money together. I'd really love to see two of my favorite (and most used) apps working together. simon -- Simon Spiegel Steinhaldenstr. 50 8002 Zürich Telephon: ++41 44 451 5334 Mobophon: ++41 76 459 60 39 http://www.simifilm.ch Was soll aus mir mal werden, wenn ich mal nicht mehr bin? Robert Gernhardt - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now http://get.splunk.com/ ___ Bibdesk-users mailing list Bibdesk-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bibdesk-users
Re: [Bibdesk-users] text editor integration
On Oct 18, 2007, at 06:14, Christiaan Hofman wrote: Just curious (as I'm not intending to work on this either). But what exactly would be needed to be done for integration with Mellel? I personally think that most of the required hard work (i.e. everything that requires detailed knowledge of Mellel's proprietary file format) would be the responsibility of Mellel, not a reference manager. Also as they already support different citation managers, and it's stupid to let each one redo that job. While the Mellel developers kbnow thier format, so with their existing code that job would be infinitely easier. From that POV, I would say BibDesk already has almost all that is needed. From their response to me (below) and my vague recollection, I gather that BibDesk is responsible for accepting a list of temp citations (correspond loosely to cite keys), then producing a formatted bibliography as RTF that is passed back via Apple Events. If they used a DO API, I'd have done this for fun...but the Apple Event stuff is hairy. I guess my most basic question is this: what information would Mellel provide to BibDesk, and what does it expect in return? The usual workflow is this: a. The user inserts citations by going to the bibliography application, finding the citations and then dragging them or pressing a button (depending on the bibliography application). The inserted citations are called temp citations and are usually formatted for the convenience of the bibliography database (containing a unique ID, full details etc) b. When the user wants to produce the final manuscript, he presses the scan button and the following happens (communication is done via Apple Events) 1. Mellel scans the document and collects the temp citations (unformatted citations) 2. Mellel passes these to the bibliography application 3. The bibliography application formats the citations and generates the bibliography and passes them back to Mellel 4. Mellel integrates the new citations+bibliography in the document. - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now http://get.splunk.com/ ___ Bibdesk-users mailing list Bibdesk-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bibdesk-users
Re: [Bibdesk-users] text editor integration
Just as a Mellel-Bookends user, I know that the workflow below is correct (although I know nothing about the Apple Events portion). The reference manager produces the formatted text, so the ability to produce a wide variety of citation formats is essential. --or an easy-to-use method for the user to customize same. If anyone is curious, I can provide screenshots of the Bookends format-editing interface. --Ingrid On 10/18/07 8:28 AM, Adam R. Maxwell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Oct 18, 2007, at 06:14, Christiaan Hofman wrote: Just curious (as I'm not intending to work on this either). But what exactly would be needed to be done for integration with Mellel? I personally think that most of the required hard work (i.e. everything that requires detailed knowledge of Mellel's proprietary file format) would be the responsibility of Mellel, not a reference manager. Also as they already support different citation managers, and it's stupid to let each one redo that job. While the Mellel developers kbnow thier format, so with their existing code that job would be infinitely easier. From that POV, I would say BibDesk already has almost all that is needed. From their response to me (below) and my vague recollection, I gather that BibDesk is responsible for accepting a list of temp citations (correspond loosely to cite keys), then producing a formatted bibliography as RTF that is passed back via Apple Events. If they used a DO API, I'd have done this for fun...but the Apple Event stuff is hairy. I guess my most basic question is this: what information would Mellel provide to BibDesk, and what does it expect in return? The usual workflow is this: a. The user inserts citations by going to the bibliography application, finding the citations and then dragging them or pressing a button (depending on the bibliography application). The inserted citations are called temp citations and are usually formatted for the convenience of the bibliography database (containing a unique ID, full details etc) b. When the user wants to produce the final manuscript, he presses the scan button and the following happens (communication is done via Apple Events) 1. Mellel scans the document and collects the temp citations (unformatted citations) 2. Mellel passes these to the bibliography application 3. The bibliography application formats the citations and generates the bibliography and passes them back to Mellel 4. Mellel integrates the new citations+bibliography in the document. - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now http://get.splunk.com/ ___ Bibdesk-users mailing list Bibdesk-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bibdesk-users - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now http://get.splunk.com/ ___ Bibdesk-users mailing list Bibdesk-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bibdesk-users
Re: [Bibdesk-users] text editor integration
Have you tried the latest nightlies? It contains an editor to create custom citation templates. Christiaan On 18 Oct 2007, at 7:28 PM, Ingrid Giffin wrote: Just as a Mellel-Bookends user, I know that the workflow below is correct (although I know nothing about the Apple Events portion). The reference manager produces the formatted text, so the ability to produce a wide variety of citation formats is essential. --or an easy-to-use method for the user to customize same. If anyone is curious, I can provide screenshots of the Bookends format-editing interface. --Ingrid On 10/18/07 8:28 AM, Adam R. Maxwell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Oct 18, 2007, at 06:14, Christiaan Hofman wrote: Just curious (as I'm not intending to work on this either). But what exactly would be needed to be done for integration with Mellel? I personally think that most of the required hard work (i.e. everything that requires detailed knowledge of Mellel's proprietary file format) would be the responsibility of Mellel, not a reference manager. Also as they already support different citation managers, and it's stupid to let each one redo that job. While the Mellel developers kbnow thier format, so with their existing code that job would be infinitely easier. From that POV, I would say BibDesk already has almost all that is needed. From their response to me (below) and my vague recollection, I gather that BibDesk is responsible for accepting a list of temp citations (correspond loosely to cite keys), then producing a formatted bibliography as RTF that is passed back via Apple Events. If they used a DO API, I'd have done this for fun...but the Apple Event stuff is hairy. I guess my most basic question is this: what information would Mellel provide to BibDesk, and what does it expect in return? The usual workflow is this: a. The user inserts citations by going to the bibliography application, finding the citations and then dragging them or pressing a button (depending on the bibliography application). The inserted citations are called temp citations and are usually formatted for the convenience of the bibliography database (containing a unique ID, full details etc) b. When the user wants to produce the final manuscript, he presses the scan button and the following happens (communication is done via Apple Events) 1. Mellel scans the document and collects the temp citations (unformatted citations) 2. Mellel passes these to the bibliography application 3. The bibliography application formats the citations and generates the bibliography and passes them back to Mellel 4. Mellel integrates the new citations+bibliography in the document. - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now http://get.splunk.com/ ___ Bibdesk-users mailing list Bibdesk-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bibdesk-users -- --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now http://get.splunk.com/ ___ Bibdesk-users mailing list Bibdesk-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bibdesk-users - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now http://get.splunk.com/ ___ Bibdesk-users mailing list Bibdesk-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bibdesk-users
Re: [Bibdesk-users] text editor integration
On 10 Oct 2007, at 8:54 PM, Simon Spiegel wrote: On 10.10.2007, at 20:47, Simon Spiegel wrote: That's correct (are there only 15?). It uses the factory settings for the fields. When it is included in BibDesk it would automatically use your changes in the pref though. But you can always add arbitrary fields to the available set using the little + button. Great, missed the + button. Have to look into this tomorrow. Probably I missed something again, or do I see this correctly that there are no conditions? simon I've included it in BibDesk, so you can see the latest developments in tomorrows nightly. There is some support for conditional tags, but only for adding a text prefix or suffix depending on a field being non-empty and arbitrary text for empty/non-empty fields. Christiaan - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now http://get.splunk.com/ ___ Bibdesk-users mailing list Bibdesk-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bibdesk-users
Re: [Bibdesk-users] text editor integration
On 2007-October-10 , at 15:32 , Christiaan Hofman wrote: On 8 Oct 2007, at 2:36 PM, jiho wrote: On 2007-October-08 , at 13:20 , Christiaan Hofman wrote: On 8 Oct 2007, at 12:57 PM, jiho wrote: On 2007-October-08 , at 11:38 , Christiaan Hofman wrote: On 8 Oct 2007, at 9:16 AM, jiho wrote: On 2007-October-08 , at 08:38 , Simon Spiegel wrote: [...] I've created a little template composer app along these lines. It can be downloaded from the Wiki. Please try it out and say what you think. We might at some point include it in BibDesk. That's great... and fast! I cannot fully test it now but I'll try tonight or this week end. Thanks! JiHO --- http://jo.irisson.free.fr/ - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now http://get.splunk.com/ ___ Bibdesk-users mailing list Bibdesk-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bibdesk-users
Re: [Bibdesk-users] text editor integration
On 10 Oct 2007, at 3:41 PM, Simon Spiegel wrote: On 10.10.2007, at 15:32, Christiaan Hofman wrote: I've created a little template composer app along these lines. It can be downloaded from the Wiki. Please try it out and say what you think. We might at some point include it in BibDesk. From a first look it seems nice, but I cannot really test it since I'm at work. Just one general question: Do I understand this correctly that the composer is currently limited to the available 15 fields? The great thing about bibtex (and also the templates) is that you can add any kind of fields you want. Would some kind of generic field where the user can edit the field name be possible? Integration into BibDesk seems like a very good idea. simon That's correct (are there only 15?). It uses the factory settings for the fields. When it is included in BibDesk it would automatically use your changes in the pref though. But you can always add arbitrary fields to the available set using the little + button. Christiaan - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now http://get.splunk.com/ ___ Bibdesk-users mailing list Bibdesk-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bibdesk-users
Re: [Bibdesk-users] text editor integration
On 10.10.2007, at 20:47, Simon Spiegel wrote: That's correct (are there only 15?). It uses the factory settings for the fields. When it is included in BibDesk it would automatically use your changes in the pref though. But you can always add arbitrary fields to the available set using the little + button. Great, missed the + button. Have to look into this tomorrow. Probably I missed something again, or do I see this correctly that there are no conditions? simon -- Simon Spiegel Steinhaldenstr. 50 8002 Zürich Telephon: ++41 44 451 5334 Mobophon: ++41 76 459 60 39 http://www.simifilm.ch Was soll aus mir mal werden, wenn ich mal nicht mehr bin? Robert Gernhardt - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now http://get.splunk.com/ ___ Bibdesk-users mailing list Bibdesk-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bibdesk-users
Re: [Bibdesk-users] text editor integration
On 10 Oct 2007, at 8:54 PM, Simon Spiegel wrote: On 10.10.2007, at 20:47, Simon Spiegel wrote: That's correct (are there only 15?). It uses the factory settings for the fields. When it is included in BibDesk it would automatically use your changes in the pref though. But you can always add arbitrary fields to the available set using the little + button. Great, missed the + button. Have to look into this tomorrow. Probably I missed something again, or do I see this correctly that there are no conditions? simon That's right, condition and collection tags are not supported (apart from the publications collection and the pubType conditions). A UI supporting those would be more complicated to use than just editing the raw template in TextEdit, AFAICS. Christiaan - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now http://get.splunk.com/ ___ Bibdesk-users mailing list Bibdesk-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bibdesk-users
Re: [Bibdesk-users] text editor integration
Christiaan I have tested the UI and find it very practical. You have been incredibly reactive! This makes this list a very pleasant place, the discussions are lively and one can actually see the progress made almost in real time. So thanks to all. My only concern is: how do you add quotes with the UI? Do you have to do it as when editing templates by hand, or is there a modifier for this? I believe it could be useful to have a modifier to handle quotes. Its three parameters would be the type of quote (single, double, German, French), the punctuation to go with it (comma or period), and where to put it (inside or outside quotes). Simon I tested biblatex on your advice, it is really good. I hope TextMate will support parencite syntax coloring soon. On 10/10/2007, Christiaan Hofman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10 Oct 2007, at 8:54 PM, Simon Spiegel wrote: On 10.10.2007, at 20:47, Simon Spiegel wrote: That's correct (are there only 15?). It uses the factory settings for the fields. When it is included in BibDesk it would automatically use your changes in the pref though. But you can always add arbitrary fields to the available set using the little + button. Great, missed the + button. Have to look into this tomorrow. Probably I missed something again, or do I see this correctly that there are no conditions? simon That's right, condition and collection tags are not supported (apart from the publications collection and the pubType conditions). A UI supporting those would be more complicated to use than just editing the raw template in TextEdit, AFAICS. Christiaan - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now http://get.splunk.com/ ___ Bibdesk-users mailing list Bibdesk-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bibdesk-users - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now http://get.splunk.com/ ___ Bibdesk-users mailing list Bibdesk-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bibdesk-users
Re: [Bibdesk-users] text editor integration
You can type any text in the (item) template. You just cannot make it conditional on whether the field is set, as is the case with the modifiers (like Appending). For that you need to hand-edit the template using condition tags afterwards. Christiaan On 11 Oct 2007, at 12:21 AM, François Briatte wrote: Christiaan I have tested the UI and find it very practical. You have been incredibly reactive! This makes this list a very pleasant place, the discussions are lively and one can actually see the progress made almost in real time. So thanks to all. My only concern is: how do you add quotes with the UI? Do you have to do it as when editing templates by hand, or is there a modifier for this? I believe it could be useful to have a modifier to handle quotes. Its three parameters would be the type of quote (single, double, German, French), the punctuation to go with it (comma or period), and where to put it (inside or outside quotes). Simon I tested biblatex on your advice, it is really good. I hope TextMate will support parencite syntax coloring soon. On 10/10/2007, Christiaan Hofman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10 Oct 2007, at 8:54 PM, Simon Spiegel wrote: On 10.10.2007, at 20:47, Simon Spiegel wrote: That's correct (are there only 15?). It uses the factory settings for the fields. When it is included in BibDesk it would automatically use your changes in the pref though. But you can always add arbitrary fields to the available set using the little + button. Great, missed the + button. Have to look into this tomorrow. Probably I missed something again, or do I see this correctly that there are no conditions? simon That's right, condition and collection tags are not supported (apart from the publications collection and the pubType conditions). A UI supporting those would be more complicated to use than just editing the raw template in TextEdit, AFAICS. Christiaan - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now http://get.splunk.com/ ___ Bibdesk-users mailing list Bibdesk-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bibdesk-users -- --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now http://get.splunk.com/ ___ Bibdesk-users mailing list Bibdesk-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bibdesk-users - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now http://get.splunk.com/ ___ Bibdesk-users mailing list Bibdesk-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bibdesk-users
Re: [Bibdesk-users] text editor integration
On 2007-October-08 , at 11:38 , Christiaan Hofman wrote: On 8 Oct 2007, at 9:16 AM, jiho wrote: On 2007-October-08 , at 08:38 , Simon Spiegel wrote: Just out of curiosity, what would help the non-LaTeX users the most? People have mentioned integration with word processors. What would it look like? Basic RTF scanning wouldn't be too hard. A UI for templates would be nice, too. An UI would certainly be a good idea. I don't think that many users would use BibDesk with its current template system even if it had RTF scanning. Toom many users would be scared by it. I'd use it, but I'm certainly not the average user. I also think that the template system needs improvement to deal with more complex styles. For example more options how to deal with multiple authors/editors or with stuff like 'ibid.'. I doubt whether the template mechanism needs to be more complex, it is already quite complex and capable. See also below. For example, it is quite capable to do something like the standard bibtex styles (the Wiki has templates for abbrv.bst and plain.bst). I also think a GUI to build bibliography styles would be very welcome. I suggested this in back in 2005: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php? msg_id=9787bb9212cc90ffa59662781198cb8a%40gmail.com [NB: sorry the links to the images are broken, I lost them] and it was considered too big to be in the scope of BibDesk at that time. The context seems to be the same today: people want tighter integration between bibdesk and their word processors and, to do that, a way to scan the document for citations as well as to format the references list is needed. If such a UI is build, I would love it to output rtf templates as well as something more LaTeX related (since apparently most current users of BD use LaTeX). At the time of my first post, I thought about writing .bst files, with BibTeX code, but the fact that it is a new language, and a not very user-friendly one, adds some complexity. Now, if this UI could output files suitable for biblatex, which is much easier to use than bibtex, it would be great. I personally have trouble imagining a workable UI to build templates. The template syntax is quite complex, and the only UIs I can think of would either be able to handle only simple templates, or they would be more bothersome to work with than the raw template itself. I don't know how the other managers (like Bookends and Sente) work with their template UI, but I guess they only use a much simplified syntax (in our terms, the equivalent of only value tags). I don't know the RTF template mechanism well but I was thinking at a UI like this (very quick draft): http://jo.irisson.free.fr/dropbox/bd_styles_ui.png - On the left, a list of publication types, taken from BibDesk - On the right: . a list of fields, which changes according to the pub type, with mandatory bibtex fields in red. The list of fields is also taken from bibdesk (custom fields appear here) . an Inline citations and a References list fields in which tokens can be drag and dropped to select what will be printed in each case. Plus, one can also write in these sections (but I cannot find how to do this in interface builder). Therefore one can write: [Author], [Year]. [Title], In: [Journal] etc. . an option view, with options depending on each token (here some possible options are shown for the [Author] token, which is probably the most complex to print). . a preview of what the output will look like I think such a UI would be quite straightforward to use and could be interfaced to many template mechanisms (BD own templates, biblatex, bibtex etc.) The cumbersome part with such a UI would be to do the templating for all publication types. There are two solutions I can think of: - never start from scratch: BD provides two of three templates to start from, e.g. an author-year one, a numbered one etc. maybe from the three or four classic bibtex styles - define one reference type as a master (as shown here). The modifications done on this master propagates the all other pub types and then one only modifies them. I think a better road for users for whom building a template is too complicated is to provide an (extensive) library of standard citation and bibliography styles. That could be done mostly by users I think. While this could be an efficient solution, I don't think it will be viable if there is not an easy way to produce the templates. I have experience in doing it for latex bibliography styles: http://jo.irisson.free.fr/bstdatabase/ and most styles were collected by me from publishers web pages (actually the large majority comes from elsevier which gives one template for all their journals: 2000 journals in the database). I received approximately 30 submissions of new styles in two years, 10 of which being brand new, the rest of them being
Re: [Bibdesk-users] text editor integration
On 8 Oct 2007, at 12:57 PM, jiho wrote: On 2007-October-08 , at 11:38 , Christiaan Hofman wrote: On 8 Oct 2007, at 9:16 AM, jiho wrote: On 2007-October-08 , at 08:38 , Simon Spiegel wrote: Just out of curiosity, what would help the non-LaTeX users the most? People have mentioned integration with word processors. What would it look like? Basic RTF scanning wouldn't be too hard. A UI for templates would be nice, too. An UI would certainly be a good idea. I don't think that many users would use BibDesk with its current template system even if it had RTF scanning. Toom many users would be scared by it. I'd use it, but I'm certainly not the average user. I also think that the template system needs improvement to deal with more complex styles. For example more options how to deal with multiple authors/editors or with stuff like 'ibid.'. I doubt whether the template mechanism needs to be more complex, it is already quite complex and capable. See also below. For example, it is quite capable to do something like the standard bibtex styles (the Wiki has templates for abbrv.bst and plain.bst). I also think a GUI to build bibliography styles would be very welcome. I suggested this in back in 2005: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/message.php? msg_id=9787bb9212cc90ffa59662781198cb8a%40gmail.com [NB: sorry the links to the images are broken, I lost them] and it was considered too big to be in the scope of BibDesk at that time. The context seems to be the same today: people want tighter integration between bibdesk and their word processors and, to do that, a way to scan the document for citations as well as to format the references list is needed. If such a UI is build, I would love it to output rtf templates as well as something more LaTeX related (since apparently most current users of BD use LaTeX). At the time of my first post, I thought about writing .bst files, with BibTeX code, but the fact that it is a new language, and a not very user-friendly one, adds some complexity. Now, if this UI could output files suitable for biblatex, which is much easier to use than bibtex, it would be great. I personally have trouble imagining a workable UI to build templates. The template syntax is quite complex, and the only UIs I can think of would either be able to handle only simple templates, or they would be more bothersome to work with than the raw template itself. I don't know how the other managers (like Bookends and Sente) work with their template UI, but I guess they only use a much simplified syntax (in our terms, the equivalent of only value tags). I don't know the RTF template mechanism well but I was thinking at a UI like this (very quick draft): http://jo.irisson.free.fr/dropbox/bd_styles_ui.png - On the left, a list of publication types, taken from BibDesk - On the right: . a list of fields, which changes according to the pub type, with mandatory bibtex fields in red. The list of fields is also taken from bibdesk (custom fields appear here) . an Inline citations and a References list fields in which tokens can be drag and dropped to select what will be printed in each case. Plus, one can also write in these sections (but I cannot find how to do this in interface builder). Therefore one can write: [Author], [Year]. [Title], In: [Journal] etc. . an option view, with options depending on each token (here some possible options are shown for the [Author] token, which is probably the most complex to print). . a preview of what the output will look like I think such a UI would be quite straightforward to use and could be interfaced to many template mechanisms (BD own templates, biblatex, bibtex etc.) The cumbersome part with such a UI would be to do the templating for all publication types. There are two solutions I can think of: - never start from scratch: BD provides two of three templates to start from, e.g. an author-year one, a numbered one etc. maybe from the three or four classic bibtex styles - define one reference type as a master (as shown here). The modifications done on this master propagates the all other pub types and then one only modifies them. I think a better road for users for whom building a template is too complicated is to provide an (extensive) library of standard citation and bibliography styles. That could be done mostly by users I think. While this could be an efficient solution, I don't think it will be viable if there is not an easy way to produce the templates. I have experience in doing it for latex bibliography styles: http://jo.irisson.free.fr/bstdatabase/ and most styles were collected by me from publishers web pages (actually the large majority comes from elsevier which gives one template for all their journals: 2000 journals in the database). I received approximately 30 submissions of new styles in two years, 10 of which being brand
[Bibdesk-users] text editor integration
as an end user I hope someone would make an effort in developing some sort of text editor integration different from LyX, in order to see automatic reference generation. I understand there are some scripts I already tried, but they are quite buggy and time-consuming. It may be my fault if I am not so acquainted with LyX, but perhaps the mac community would like something more family-feeling. In a descending order I'd prefer Pages Mellel Openoffice aqua word (.doc format) kword Thanks a lot Daniele Pontillo Chief, Echo Lab, Cardiology, Belcolle Hospital Strada Sanmartinese, Viterbo, Italy 01100 Work: +39 0761 339424 Mobile: +39 3383734157 Home: +39 0761 834051 http://www.danpont.it - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now http://get.splunk.com/ ___ Bibdesk-users mailing list Bibdesk-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bibdesk-users
Re: [Bibdesk-users] text editor integration
I second that. At this point I export my project references to Bookends because of the smooth integration with Mellel. It would be a big improvement to be able to skip that step (which often creates its own problems). --Ingrid On 10/7/07 2:50 PM, Daniele Pontillo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: as an end user I hope someone would make an effort in developing some sort of text editor integration different from LyX, in order to see automatic reference generation. I understand there are some scripts I already tried, but they are quite buggy and time-consuming. It may be my fault if I am not so acquainted with LyX, but perhaps the mac community would like something more family-feeling. In a descending order I'd prefer Pages Mellel Openoffice aqua word (.doc format) kword Thanks a lot Daniele Pontillo Chief, Echo Lab, Cardiology, Belcolle Hospital Strada Sanmartinese, Viterbo, Italy 01100 Work: +39 0761 339424 Mobile: +39 3383734157 Home: +39 0761 834051 http://www.danpont.it - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now http://get.splunk.com/ ___ Bibdesk-users mailing list Bibdesk-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bibdesk-users - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now http://get.splunk.com/ ___ Bibdesk-users mailing list Bibdesk-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bibdesk-users
Re: [Bibdesk-users] text editor integration
On 07.10.2007, at 23:25, Niels Kobschätzki wrote: On Oct 7, 2007, at 11:13 PM, Ingrid Giffin wrote: I second that. At this point I export my project references to Bookends because of the smooth integration with Mellel. It would be a big improvement to be able to skip that step (which often creates its own problems). --Ingrid On 10/7/07 2:50 PM, Daniele Pontillo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: as an end user I hope someone would make an effort in developing some sort of text editor integration different from LyX, in order to see automatic reference generation. I understand there are some scripts I already tried, but they are quite buggy and time-consuming. It may be my fault if I am not so acquainted with LyX, but perhaps the mac community would like something more family-feeling. In a descending order I'd prefer Pages Mellel Openoffice aqua word (.doc format) kword Thanks a lot I'm not one of the developers but you both know that Bibdesk is a software for generating Bibtex-files which are used in LaTeX- documents. I guess the developers can't do a lot for integrating Bibtex into the word processors (none of the mentioned programs classify as a text editor but are word processors and LyX is a LaTeX- editor which tries to give LaTeX a WYSIWG-feeling). You should ask the producers of the mentioned programs, if they can't do anything for integrating bib-files better. At least integration of BibDesk and Mellel has already been discussed some time ago. In principle, it wouldn't be so difficult to implement since BibDesk has a template based export system. Interaction with Mellel's XML-based file format would certainly be doable with this. Mellel's developers have also signalled interest and Adam Maxwell has looked into this (see http://forum.redlers.com/viewtopic.php? t=997postdays=0postorder=aschighlight=bibdeskstart=0 ), but nothing has been done so far. I think mainly, because none of the BibDesk developers uses Mellel. I agree though, that interaction between Mellel and BibDesk would be cool. As for interaction with Pages: Pages offers no bibliographic support whatsoever, so doing something useful with BibDesk would be quite difficult. simon -- Simon Spiegel Steinhaldenstr. 50 8002 Zürich Telephon: ++41 44 451 5334 Mobophon: ++41 76 459 60 39 http://www.simifilm.ch Was soll aus mir mal werden, wenn ich mal nicht mehr bin? Robert Gernhardt - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now http://get.splunk.com/ ___ Bibdesk-users mailing list Bibdesk-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bibdesk-users
Re: [Bibdesk-users] text editor integration
The topic of word processor integration comes up periodically, and I'd also like to see more integration with word processor-type programs. However, if wishes were horses, then beggars would ride ;). I explored Mellel integration at one point, but I personally can't justify a license for Mellel to work on it, or the time it would require. If anyone is interested, I can share the Mellel SDK and some correspondence with its developers, and you can have your own subversion branch to play with. Join the developers list and we'll help you get started; that's how I learned Objective-C and Cocoa. Note also that Pages's XML format is documented, so in theory you could scan a pages document and insert citations at the appropriate places. Tom Counsell's ruby script does this, for instance. Maybe someone (not me!) could be persuaded to work on this via a grant? Anyone interested in pursuing that? I'd guesstimate 120 hours full time for someone familiar with Cocoa in general, maybe 80 for someone familiar with BibDesk itself; those figures are strongly dependent on the desired feature set. For my organization, that might translate to $12-18K at the low end, so students are probably a better bet for this. regards, Adam - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now http://get.splunk.com/ ___ Bibdesk-users mailing list Bibdesk-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bibdesk-users
Re: [Bibdesk-users] text editor integration
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Il giorno 07/ott/07, alle ore 23:56, Adam R. Maxwell ha scritto: The topic of word processor integration comes up periodically, and I'd also like to see more integration with word processor-type programs. However, if wishes were horses, then beggars would ride ;). I explored Mellel integration at one point, but I personally can't justify a license for Mellel to work on it, or the time it would require. If anyone is interested, I can share the Mellel SDK and some correspondence with its developers, and you can have your own subversion branch to play with. Join the developers list and we'll help you get started; that's how I learned Objective-C and Cocoa. Note also that Pages's XML format is documented, so in theory you could scan a pages document and insert citations at the appropriate places. Tom Counsell's ruby script does this, for instance. Maybe someone (not me!) could be persuaded to work on this via a grant? Anyone interested in pursuing that? I'd guesstimate 120 hours full time for someone familiar with Cocoa in general, maybe 80 for someone familiar with BibDesk itself; those figures are strongly dependent on the desired feature set. For my organization, that might translate to $12-18K at the low end, so students are probably a better bet for this. great! I'll give up being a cardiologist and get into computer biz. I.e. my honorarium for an office visit is $150 (30 min), still cheaper than your fares... Sorry for the OT. regards, Adam -- --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now http://get.splunk.com/ ___ Bibdesk-users mailing list Bibdesk-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bibdesk-users Daniele Pontillo Chief, Echo Lab, Cardiology, Belcolle Hospital Strada Sanmartinese, Viterbo, Italy 01100 Work: +39 0761 339424 Mobile: +39 3383734157 Home: +39 0761 834051 http://www.danpont.it -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (Darwin) iD8DBQFHCVftxfmSf9JGn5oRAr1EAJ4/OX2pf4BUSdHY00TlKasX/iVPzACdGkli Iaa/NE7znMESmudoUk3GAXQ= =QR2T -END PGP SIGNATURE- - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now http://get.splunk.com/ ___ Bibdesk-users mailing list Bibdesk-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bibdesk-users
Re: [Bibdesk-users] text editor integration
On Oct 7, 2007, at 15:04, Daniele Pontillo wrote: great! I'll give up being a cardiologist and get into computer biz. I.e. my honorarium for an office visit is $150 (30 min), still cheaper than your fares... Sorry for the OT. My point is that it might be a good student project, if someone has an appropriate grant (I'm serious about that...I know there are college students and faculty on this list). Feature requests are free, but implementing them is not...and we haven't had any new developers come on board since 2004, as far as I recall. -- adam - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now http://get.splunk.com/ ___ Bibdesk-users mailing list Bibdesk-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bibdesk-users
Re: [Bibdesk-users] text editor integration
Although working on integration between an open-source project like BibDesk and a closed-source, for-pay product such as Mellel seems problematic as a student project. The question is, what open-source word processor is a good option? Not much comes to mind. LyX as a LaTeX front-end is still too much for most people, and the current crop (Abiword, OpenOffice) of free alternatives doesn't look good. The future of OpenOffice as an environment with serious, built-in citation support looks promising, though: http://bibliographic.openoffice.org/ Of course, we're still at least a year out from OOO 3.0 and probably more time after that for the (now-alpha) Cocoa port, unless you want to work with NeoOffice instead. If we ever get a Computer Science undergrad major at my institution, I'll be recruiting. -AHM On Oct 7, 2007, at 3:26 PM, Adam R. Maxwell wrote: On Oct 7, 2007, at 15:04, Daniele Pontillo wrote: great! I'll give up being a cardiologist and get into computer biz. I.e. my honorarium for an office visit is $150 (30 min), still cheaper than your fares... Sorry for the OT. My point is that it might be a good student project, if someone has an appropriate grant (I'm serious about that...I know there are college students and faculty on this list). Feature requests are free, but implementing them is not...and we haven't had any new developers come on board since 2004, as far as I recall. -- adam -- --- This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now http://get.splunk.com/ ___ Bibdesk-users mailing list Bibdesk-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bibdesk-users - This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc. Still grepping through log files to find problems? Stop. Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser. Download your FREE copy of Splunk now http://get.splunk.com/ ___ Bibdesk-users mailing list Bibdesk-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bibdesk-users
