Re: [blackbelly] scrapie testing
See, all my African sheep are resistant. And that's enough for me to know.To follow a Government enforced scrapie program, something very different. Wait and see.Johnes disease, which is spreading in Mexico in large and Caribbean breeds not able to cope with, much more important to look at. Can't see why BB then the market for blackbelly sheep will skyrocket..., as they are unable to produce even 1/4 of a good wool sheep in flock does. The parasite resistance story about BB and St Croix, I have had them here in large numbers ask the guys in Texas, running a 1000 head of ewe, which breed are parasite resistant. For to make money, with breeds available, BB would never work.With Texel hybrids you make just 3 times the money, as they are able to handle the parasiste much better. I still have 10 year old Texel hybrid ewes, giving birth in November, and now an other set of twins. BBout of 600 head, may a 5 survived , the day we went out of drenching.With out medicamentation it is absolute impossible to run a larger herd of BB On no list you see such amount of problems as on the BB list, that should open our eyes and ask us, where to invest into the breed regards Helmut - Original Message - From: Carol J. Elkins [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: blackbelly@lists.blackbellysheep.info Sent: Friday, May 26, 2006 2:42 PM Subject: Re: [blackbelly] scrapie testing There are a lot of reasons that blackbelly owners might want to test their sheep for scrapie susceptibility. I agree, Helmut, that when it was just a question of complying with the government, I wasn't very enthused about the testing. Why should I spend money testing for something that our sheep don't get? However, my interest perked up when I started reading that blackbelly sheep might have a very unique genetic resistance to scrapie. In basic marketing terms, if we have something that no one else has, and everyone wants it (especially if the government is telling them they have to), then it would be to our advantage to figure out why we have that something and then figure out a way to capitalize on selling it to the have-nots. Part of learning whether or not blackbelly sheep have a unique genetic scrapie resistance involves learning the genetic makeup of our sheep, and that requires that we test them. The more of us that test our animals, the more data we have. And if that data indicates a uniqueness in our genetics, then we will have an easier time getting one of the researchers interested. If, through research, we learn that our sheep have a magic bullet in their genetics, then the market for blackbelly sheep will skyrocket. That's my logic, anyway! Carol At 01:31 PM 5/26/2006 -0700, you wrote: Did anyone of you ever observe in BB scrapie ? Our province has never had any scrapie, but you should see how much money the Govenment is willing to put in, hundredthousands of dollars.For what, something nobody realy knows about ? And than have a look how much is done, to keep a breed as BB in good conditon. But the real problem maker is not the Govenment, it is the Farmer who accepts what ever the Government tells him to do. Before I have to do Scrapie testing in my sheep, sheep which never have had any Scrapie, seems better for me to give sheep farming up.Let others do and look about the succes they gone have. That's the way I see it ___ This message is from the blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.7.2/349 - Release Date: 26/05/2006 ___ This message is from the blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [blackbelly] scrapie testing/Johnes Long
I got sort of heckled off the Shedders list for bringing up mineral imbalances as causes for certain health problems. I got scoffed at because I might be reading Pat Coleby's books on natural animal care. Well, I do read Pat Coleby and she was the one who alerted me to the lack of copper in the diet as a cause for lack of resistance to a lot of diseases, including Johne's and parasites. My flock was suffering from a lot of low grade health issues. Some of those issues got pretty serious. The vets just kept saying worm 'em. Treat 'em for cocci. I dunno. These are lousy sheep. They're always dying. THREE vets couldn't make my sheep well. With a lot of trepidation, I mixed up Coleby's mineral lick which is blue with copper sulfate, but which has other minerals that buffer the copper. The sheep broke out in a war over the mix. When each in turn had gotten a tiny amount they pretty well ignored it, though they would go to it occasionally, dab their tongues in it, then go away. At this point, I went through a lot of agony, thinking I had poisoned my flock. But instead, I saw an abrupt end to virtually ALL the problems I was having. One lamb I was calling Rat Boy because he was so scruffy, is growing up into a gorgeous wether. And the really wierd thing is looking at fecal samples under the microscope. At a time when the ewes should be shedding eggs like crazy, there is hardly one. But what I have seen, is a nematode-like thing with one end blown out. Several of them. Maybe they get parasites, but their boosted immune system kills them??? Copper boosts the immune system and Coleby cites instances where farmers have bought Johne's bulls, put them on copper sufficient pastures and never had another symptom. It's all anecdotal, certainly not scientific. But we are CONSTANTLY being told not to give copper to the sheep without regard for what's actually in their feed. I analyzed all our feed and found out that the hay (including alfalfa pellets) is all sub-par for sheep in copper. But the BIG problem is that there is too much molybdenum. The ratio should be 6-10 parts copper to 1 part moly, and we were typically getting 2 parts copper to 1 part moly, when the copper wasn't adequate to begin with. In one alfalfa pellet sample we got 2X the TOXIC level of iron. There is too much potassium, which ties up the magnesium, which is probably why grass tetany is such a problem. It's not a lack of magnesium, which is adequate, it's way too much potassium. On all the hay samples the iron was way too high. But interestingly, our new crop of hay is off land that has not been chemically farmed in many years. A lot of the values are still off, but the iron content of the forage is 1/4 of the chemically farmed hay, just .04 above the upper limit for sheep. The hay came from a field about a mile away from the high-iron field that has been chemically farmed. Good for my sheep, bad for the hay field - All the nutrition from that field left that field and came to mine, where it will be run through the sheep and horses, and then enhanced, as compost, will go to nourish MY pasture, MY sheep all over again. That field will never be replenished and will eventually give out because all the nutrients are being transported off of it, never to return. I think that all this sudden susceptibility of animals to immune deficiency diseases like Johne's is a direct result of the degraded soils and the garbage the animals get fed in the feed lots. Ground chicken feathers? From chickens raised in factories? We're all blaming the animals and ourselves for selecting for one trait while disregarding another. When are we going to start looking at the soil??? Even humans are falling to new diseases every day. You can't go a day reading the newspaper without some new disease being reported. Does it have something to do with growing up at McDonald's, eating cardboard pizza and TV dinners? Tomatoes that ship rather than nourish? You can get three times the hay off a field that's been chemically fertilized, but that means its stripping three times the available minerals out of the ground at the same time - minerals that aren't being replaced by triple-16. You've got lignin and cellulose and artificially created protein - and all the heavy metals and crap that came with the fertilizer. The vital natural elements that create health are going, going, gone. I think our blackbellies have a HEAP of resistance to all sorts of stuff. But they are a product of the earth and the grass, just like we are. ALL our health starts right under our feet. We ARE responsible for bringing robust animals into the world. But all the genetic health on the planet, rolled into one animal, is a waste if the animal doesn't have one basic element to survive. Interestingly, it takes LESS selenium to kill a sheep than it does copper. The requirement for selenium is less than 2
Re: [blackbelly] scrapie testing
Very good information, thank you. But: They seem to do better on forage that the woolies do not fare well on. Working with a few thousand hair sheep in different breeds, and on side a 300 wool sheep in different breeds, no way that the average hair sheep even would come close to the production of the woolies. What has to do with the small number of hair sheep which are on the market, genetically too close. How do you like to compete against a Ile de France, where a Government did invest many Millions of Dollars to improve, against a St Croix, where no money has been invested ? St Croix on our ranch do not survive under normal management more than a 5 months, or I have to use medicamentation.But steady I read article of farmers with small and well protected flocks, how parasite resistant those sheep are.And that is not true once the flock is crowed and under stress. And about hot climate?Mexico imported large numbers of Ile de Franc, and they do in hot climate extreme well. And Mexico imported more than a 100 000 hair sheep, of very resistant type. I see Mexico producing lamb for US in large scale very soon.High quality wool/hair hybrid lambs. The Mexicans invest in meat production, and that's where we don't look at enough. About ...Big Brother but there are some things we just cannot try to get under the radar with.. most of the large Texas sheep breeders wrote me, that they have been forced in the scrapie program. I have seen one thing in my live, where ever the public did adapt too much to the government orders, country in short time in dept. See Germany , as example, always head down and they do what the Government is telling them.No money in the country. Switzerland? One the Government did artificial bring the price for butter up, the Swiss did not eat butter for a year.After that the Government gave up and butter was even cheaper than before. Strong democratie works with commonsense and does not accept money vaste. Regards Helmut - Original Message - From: Terry Wereb [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: blackbelly@lists.blackbellysheep.info Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 8:48 AM Subject: Re: [blackbelly] scrapie testing Whoa! Are we not trying to breed out the influence of other breeds in the BB? The AB, by accidental design, is a mixed breed, with many of the physical characteristics of the original BB. There are SOME AB breeders wanting to breed for more than just trophy horns-- overall structure, carcass quality and genetic health being their goal. And that is how a pure breed gets established-- careful genetic manipulation by controlled breeding. I know that is the purpose, supposedly, of everyone that joins the BB consortium. I sit and watch other sheep forums, as well, in order to learn more about sheep in general-- and I see the same types of issues, in perhaps the same numbers, on them, with the woollies and other hair sheep. The purpose of a hair sheep is NOT to produce wool-- it is to produce meat--on the forums where several breeds are covered, it is unanimous that hair sheep cost less to raise to maturity/slaughter. They seem to do better on forage that the woolies do not fare well on. And of course, being from warmer climes, the hair sheep are readily adapted to our warmer areas-- and in the colder ones, they do grow a protective winter coat-- here in the US, a lot of wool goes to waste. What is sold is sold to a small market of hand spinners and knitters. the market is very tight-- so much so, that I have noticed the prices on the alpaca products dropping like lead bricks! Even the so called premium fibers are not demanding a decent price. We have to test/be in a program if we want to be able to particiapte in anyimprted semen program-- so we grit our teeth, and particiapate-- not willingly, but we do. And yes, Johnes is a much more serious thing to be worrying about-- but we do need to be able to rake advantage of any fresh genetics we can get further down the road. Of course, we can help keep resisteance in our flocks by minimizing the chemical interventions we make. We can cull poor lambing ewes, por mothers, etc. Unfortuneately, the genetics game is an expensive one--I priced the cost of the basic equipment to start the genetic screening process, and I do not believe any of us in the BB, or even the AB, have 10 Thousand USD, to spend on just part of the process!! (That does not include the fees to license the use of the equipment) And, to top it off, the equipment I found was not even geared towards sheep--probably making the cost even higher for such a specialty testing program. many of us here do not like Uncle Sam playing Big Brother but there are some things we just cannot try to get under the radar with.. So we test, and we comply, bust just ebough to stay legal... Terry W --- hlang [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: See, all my African sheep are resistant. And that's enough for me to know.To
Re: [blackbelly] scrapie testing/Johnes Long
Don't like to border too much with my writing. But for years, and Carol remembers that, I tell one thing: Blackbellies need much more copper, up to three times more than wool sheep. For example, with a copper level where a BB just drives well, a Texel would die in a time of three weeks. Now, if you select BB or AB with out sufficient copper , than you select just to the opposite . You create over the years a sheep which is much similar to average breed.The african or caribean type of sheep need a lot of copper and zinc to developpe parasite resistance. So the selection should be, as much copper as possible, to see which lines are able to handle that. And once you have the lines back , the gentics which can handle lots of copper, than you have as well the parasite resistance.Wool sheep do not need the copper for parasite resistance, as long as they have baltic blood. Last year we decided to feed the same feed to cattle ( 60 heads) as to our sheep. You know what happened to us? Plenty of lambs, the ewes are rebreed shortly after birth and lambs are coming and grow well. Cattle? Only one calf survied, they could not handle the spoiled silage. 15 years of harsh selection in sheep made the sheep way harder and healthier than my cattle. Why? Because in the first years, our cattle have been much better in regarding health than our sheep.So I did not cull so hard.. regards Helmut - Original Message - From: Barb Lee [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: blackbelly@lists.blackbellysheep.info Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 9:04 AM Subject: Re: [blackbelly] scrapie testing/Johnes Long I got sort of heckled off the Shedders list for bringing up mineral imbalances as causes for certain health problems. I got scoffed at because I might be reading Pat Coleby's books on natural animal care. Well, I do read Pat Coleby and she was the one who alerted me to the lack of copper in the diet as a cause for lack of resistance to a lot of diseases, including Johne's and parasites. My flock was suffering from a lot of low grade health issues. Some of those issues got pretty serious. The vets just kept saying worm 'em. Treat 'em for cocci. I dunno. These are lousy sheep. They're always dying. THREE vets couldn't make my sheep well. With a lot of trepidation, I mixed up Coleby's mineral lick which is blue with copper sulfate, but which has other minerals that buffer the copper. The sheep broke out in a war over the mix. When each in turn had gotten a tiny amount they pretty well ignored it, though they would go to it occasionally, dab their tongues in it, then go away. At this point, I went through a lot of agony, thinking I had poisoned my flock. But instead, I saw an abrupt end to virtually ALL the problems I was having. One lamb I was calling Rat Boy because he was so scruffy, is growing up into a gorgeous wether. And the really wierd thing is looking at fecal samples under the microscope. At a time when the ewes should be shedding eggs like crazy, there is hardly one. But what I have seen, is a nematode-like thing with one end blown out. Several of them. Maybe they get parasites, but their boosted immune system kills them??? Copper boosts the immune system and Coleby cites instances where farmers have bought Johne's bulls, put them on copper sufficient pastures and never had another symptom. It's all anecdotal, certainly not scientific. But we are CONSTANTLY being told not to give copper to the sheep without regard for what's actually in their feed. I analyzed all our feed and found out that the hay (including alfalfa pellets) is all sub-par for sheep in copper. But the BIG problem is that there is too much molybdenum. The ratio should be 6-10 parts copper to 1 part moly, and we were typically getting 2 parts copper to 1 part moly, when the copper wasn't adequate to begin with. In one alfalfa pellet sample we got 2X the TOXIC level of iron. There is too much potassium, which ties up the magnesium, which is probably why grass tetany is such a problem. It's not a lack of magnesium, which is adequate, it's way too much potassium. On all the hay samples the iron was way too high. But interestingly, our new crop of hay is off land that has not been chemically farmed in many years. A lot of the values are still off, but the iron content of the forage is 1/4 of the chemically farmed hay, just .04 above the upper limit for sheep. The hay came from a field about a mile away from the high-iron field that has been chemically farmed. Good for my sheep, bad for the hay field - All the nutrition from that field left that field and came to mine, where it will be run through the sheep and horses, and then enhanced, as compost, will go to nourish MY pasture, MY sheep all over again. That field will never be replenished and will eventually give out because all the nutrients are being transported off of it, never to return. I think that all this
Re: [blackbelly] scrapie testing
Well, why would you want to raise any sheep that are crowded and under stress? There really is no reason to raise sheep that way. Stephanie On May 27, 2006, at 12:21 PM, hlang wrote: I read article of farmers with small and well protected flocks, how parasite resistant those sheep are.And that is not true once the flock is crowed and under stress. ___ This message is from the blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [blackbelly] thistle
Some of my sheep eat thistles. If they will eat it, it should be OK... Cecil in Okla - Original Message - From: Nancy Richardson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: blackbelly@lists.blackbellysheep.info Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 4:31 PM Subject: [blackbelly] thistle We have a field with allot of thistle in it. How do we get rid of it short of a shovel and hoe? without hurting the sheep. Is there a spray etc that can be put on it? Thanks for any ideas. Nancy ___ This message is from the blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info ___ This message is from the blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [blackbelly] scrapie testing/Johnes Long
Barb-- you need to join the Living off the alnd list you have it down pat!!! Soil health IS super important to OUR health-- The is an environmental re=term-- called primary production which refers to the amount of energy produced directly from the sunlight interaction with plants. If the plants ar not healthy, that production DROPS Yo uhave the right idea, we can only help our sheep enjoy their natural reistance by doing what we can to make sure they have what they need to implement that resistance. Good, solid soapbox terry W ___ This message is from the blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [blackbelly] thistle
Nancy, can you mow it to keep it from going to seed? Thistle is an indicator of several soil conditions, depending on what type of thistle you have. Generally speaking it indicates a low to very low level of calcium, high potassium, low humus, and a few other variables. If you can get your soil in balance, generally the specific weed problem will take care of itself. Regards, Barb Lee - Original Message - From: Nancy Richardson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: blackbelly@lists.blackbellysheep.info Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 2:31 PM Subject: [blackbelly] thistle We have a field with allot of thistle in it. How do we get rid of it short of a shovel and hoe? without hurting the sheep. Is there a spray etc that can be put on it? Thanks for any ideas. Nancy ___ This message is from the blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info ___ This message is from the blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
[blackbelly] Making Soap
Last week, when we butchered our first lamb, I stupidly threw out all that snow white visceral fat with the innards. However when cutting and packaging, I got a brain and saved what was left. Rendered, it ended up being 3 pounds of pure tallow - three pounds of grain, grass, hay and a year's worth of TLC... Did some surfing, found instructions and recipes, bought a couple cans of lye and a hand blender and with a couple pounds of added beef suet (rendered of course), blundered my way through my first batch of soap! What a hoot! It was fun! I ended up with a neat little Amazon book-shipping box of green soap, which has been sliced into bars and is curing for a week in the box. After that I get to take it out and let it continue to cure for another month or so. After that? All my horsie friends are going to get a bar of home made saddle soap for Christmas! :o) It's supposed to be fabulous for skin because it retains all the glycerin that is taken out in commercial soap. I'm sure I'll be expanding the soapmaking operation! Hubby's honeybees will almost surely be adding ingredients! It was fun and certainly added value to a generous critter. If you're crafty and raise your critters to eat, you might try this very valuable way of wasting not. Barb ___ This message is from the blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [blackbelly] scrapie testing
Why do you think that the Barbados sheep are so fragile, as we see on this list week by week? Because the selection is very difficult if raised in small number. Once the animal is raised in large number, only the best survive. That's why the African sheep, always in contact with wildlife, are extremely resistant and able to survive in difficult terrain. Only those imports which came out of large flocks, herds over a 3000 heads, did survive here in our climate. If you like to get fragile sheep, take them from an quarantine station, university or an island, where they have not been in contact with any disease or not managed in large number, with out pressure on selection. regards Helmut - Original Message - From: Stephanie Parrish [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: blackbelly@lists.blackbellysheep.info Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 1:55 PM Subject: Re: [blackbelly] scrapie testing Well, why would you want to raise any sheep that are crowded and under stress? There really is no reason to raise sheep that way. Stephanie On May 27, 2006, at 12:21 PM, hlang wrote: I read article of farmers with small and well protected flocks, how parasite resistant those sheep are.And that is not true once the flock is crowed and under stress. ___ This message is from the blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.7.2/349 - Release Date: 26/05/2006 ___ This message is from the blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [blackbelly] scrapie testing
While what you say about only the best surviving difficult environments has merit, I believe there are better ways to select for resistant sheep than overcrowding them. Such as culling the ones that need deworming or frequent medical assistance. I don't know the genetics of all the sheep we hear about on this list, nor do I know all that much about the American Blackbelly or Barbado. But I believe that the Barbados Blackbelly, which is closer to the original African animal than the American Blackbelly, is hardy and much more parasite resistant than most wooled sheep. I see no reason why good pasture management and multispecies rotational grazing without either overcrowding or medical intervention would select for fragility among BB sheep. In fact, the multiple species aspect may well simulate contact with wildlife as happens in Africa. Cheers, Stephanie On May 27, 2006, at 11:10 PM, hlang wrote: Why do you think that the Barbados sheep are so fragile, as we see on this list week by week? Because the selection is very difficult if raised in small number. Once the animal is raised in large number, only the best survive. That's why the African sheep, always in contact with wildlife, are extremely resistant and able to survive in difficult terrain. Only those imports which came out of large flocks, herds over a 3000 heads, did survive here in our climate. If you like to get fragile sheep, take them from an quarantine station, university or an island, where they have not been in contact with any disease or not managed in large number, with out pressure on selection. regards Helmut - Original Message - From: Stephanie Parrish [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: blackbelly@lists.blackbellysheep.info Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 1:55 PM Subject: Re: [blackbelly] scrapie testing Well, why would you want to raise any sheep that are crowded and under stress? There really is no reason to raise sheep that way. Stephanie On May 27, 2006, at 12:21 PM, hlang wrote: I read article of farmers with small and well protected flocks, how parasite resistant those sheep are.And that is not true once the flock is crowed and under stress. ___ This message is from the blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.7.2/349 - Release Date: 26/05/2006 ___ This message is from the blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info ___ This message is from the blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [blackbelly] thistle
Be aware, using vinegar ismjust like using anyother herbicide-- if the day is not dry, warm, and sunny, you are wasting the effort-- you kinda have to follow the directions of a the commercial herbicides-- this from an arborist who [refers to use natural mathods Terry --- Paul Renee Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We have very rocky terrain so thistles love certain areas of our property. In the past, Paul has sprayed with Roundup, but I wouldn't let him spray the areas the animals graze. Of course, now the places he sprayed years ago looks greatand the animal grazing areas have thistles! Yes, my sheep and goats won't touch them! So last week a neighbor mentioned using vinegar so I thought I'd try it. I filled up a spray bottle and began squirting those little buggers. It was a little hard on my back (VBG) but few days later, the leaves are turning brown! Now, I know they have strong roots so only time will tell as to whether or not this will work to kill the plantsor just kill the leaves that got the vinegar. I also sprayed a clump of clover and grass to see how they react, because if this really works, I'd like to spray the whole area, not just each individual plant! I'll keep you posted. -Renee - Original Message - From: Nancy Richardson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: blackbelly@lists.blackbellysheep.info Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 2:31 PM Subject: [blackbelly] thistle We have a field with allot of thistle in it. How do we get rid of it short of a shovel and hoe? without hurting the sheep. Is there a spray etc that can be put on it? Thanks for any ideas. Nancy _ On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement ___ This message is from the blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info ___ This message is from the blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [blackbelly] thistle
Thanks for the insight, Terry! I agree that building up the soil makes much better since. We've been bringing in horse manure and doing some other things to try to create a better soil. It will take some time, but I'm not giving up. I did wonder when the rains came, if all was for not! -Renee From: Terry Wereb [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: blackbelly@lists.blackbellysheep.info To: blackbelly@lists.blackbellysheep.info Subject: Re: [blackbelly] thistle Date: Sat, 27 May 2006 20:50:49 -0700 (PDT) Be aware, using vinegar ismjust like using anyother herbicide-- if the day is not dry, warm, and sunny, you are wasting the effort-- you kinda have to follow the directions of a the commercial herbicides-- this from an arborist who [refers to use natural mathods _ On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement ___ This message is from the blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
