Re: [blackbelly] A Hard Pill to Swallow
If I may, I would like to share an opinion concerning AB vs BB. The breeders who raise BB have a sheep who is of purebred lines, culled for their health and have been for years not only here in the states, but also from where they originated. When we talk about AB and BB really we are talking color in the AB, not a purebred, not years and years of study and culling, etc. Except for color the AB is far removed from what the original BB was/is. To think AB should be parasite resistant like its cousin the BB is not logical. There are so many breeds mixed in with the AB, including woolies, that to expect the AB to have the same resistantence to anything the BB is resistent to is I believe wrong thinking. I do believe this resistance to parasites can be obtained with selective breeding/culling/and adding original BB breeding into the flock. I love my AB, but I accept them for what they are, a color breed who look like the BB. I don't expect them to be like the BB in any respect except for their gorgeous coloring. It would be hard to breed a parasite restant flock if there is nothing parasite resistant in the flock to work with. These are just my thoughts and observations over the past years of me observing my flock and listening to all of you. I just do not believe that we who breed AB can expect the same out of our flocks as the BB breeders do from their flocks. Can it be accomplished, yes, but not without adding into the flocks parasite resistant sheep. Sue Smith From: Barb Lee [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: blackbelly@lists.blackbellysheep.info To: blackbelly@lists.blackbellysheep.info,Rob Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [blackbelly] A Hard Pill to Swallow Date: Thu, 3 Aug 2006 18:47:50 -0700 I am going to tell this story, because I am hoping it will benefit someone, perhaps get them thinking. The gears in my head are clashing and breaking right now. I am really conflicted. Ever since sheep set foot on my virgin property about 2-1/2 years ago - the first sheep in 25 years, I have had the occasional animal felled by scouring/wasting. Just out of the blue. No sign of illness at first, but then a slow decline with no recovery, even with treatment, except for one who continues to poop something between dog manure and green pancake batter, but manages to maintain a good weight. By most standards, I would say I run a pretty clean, tight little farm. Lots of rotational grazing. Low stocking density. I do fecal tests routinely. Clean environment and with a parasite program that has included chemical worming, Basic H worming and cocci prevention. I know, I know, bad bad bad. These animals are parasite resistant. Yeah, uh huh. Tell me another one. I have tested soils, forages, all feeds and tried to get their immune systems up with nutrition. Anyway, the most recent animal to start scouring was in a dry lot with 4 other ewes, weaning lambs. I tried cocci treatment. The condition got worse. I had wormed with Ivomec less than two months before. It was warm and dry. They were eating dry grass hay out of a manger, not off the ground. She was young and in good flesh. I had had enough with all this chemical crap. Enough of guessing what was going on. We slaughtered the animal, sent the carcass to the butcher and sent the guts to the vet. He took samples of everything - EVERYTHING and sent them to Oregon State University. The best news I got back today is that once and for all, Johne's disease is ruled out. The other good news is that it is NOT the super cocci eimeria that is running rampant in Oregon right now, that kills its host and is immune to all drugs. You know what is killing my sheep? Parasites! Bloody parasites!!! She had lesions on her intestinal wall from cocci. There were cocci eggs and strongyle eggs in her gut enough to cause clinical disease. So what is the protocol? Oh yeah, professional fecals, what? Monthly? And industrial strength CHEMICALS. Of course! More, and heavier doses! YOU guys - YOU tell me what you would do when your fine, healthy so called parasite resistant animals are s***ting themselves to death, and you've hit them with every class of chemical and they don't respond. You work yourself stupid to provide the right kind of environment. And what happens? Whoops, there goes another one. I'll tell you what I'm going to do. Every single stinkin' one of these animals that poops a green streak is going to be on the hook. I've become an unwitting slave to a chemical machine, a butt-wiper to a bunch of weak sheep, and I will not put another one on the ground that can't live in sheep paradise here without falling over dead. I don't know whether to be thrilled to know what is going on, or whether to throw in the towel and say this is the stupidest thing I've ever gotten myself into. I tell you what I AM going to do. The next one to start is going to be isolated and I am literally going to cram it with copper. It
Re: [blackbelly] A Hard Pill to Swallow
Hi Barb, I don't have any real good answers for the parasite problem. All I can say is you are not alone! I am finding that some sheep are resistant and some are not. It doesn't really follow any pattern. I have had a few cases where a family line was obviously not resistant (lost each and every one of them)! But most cases it appears to be a hit or miss on parasite resistance. One of my oldest ewes is resistant. She has had multiple numbers of boys that were slaughtered for meat. The boys have not been around long enough to accurately assess. She has only had four girls for me. Out of the four girls 2 were resistant and 2 were not. The ewes that were not resistant just could not be saved no matter what I did! One of the ewes that died produced a daughter that appears to be extremely resistant. I also have had several twins where one was resistant and the other not. I am sure there is a genetic pattern involved in resistance or lack of it. All I can say is to try to use the best parasite resistant ram you can get. Realize that a parasite resistant flock is a long term goal. If you are to fast with survival of the fittest you may not have a flock left. I am in total awe of flocks of sheep that are drug free found in hot wet locations! Arid locations can make many sheep appear resistant. Resistant flocks of St. Croix and Gulf Coast Native sheep found in Louisiana, Florida, and Arkansas are enviable. I am sure that our Blackbelly can survive in these locations without drugs if given enough time and selection. One last note on my Barbados Blackbelly sheep. I have noticed my Barbados Blackbelly sheep really like to browse (reach up to feed on leaves). Browsing allows the sheep to feed on parasite free food sources. My other sheep (various wool X hair genetics) like tree leaves as well but do not walk vertical on their hind legs to get to them! I wonder if some of the resistance I observe is behavioral more than genetic? Good Luck, Mark -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Barb Lee Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 8:48 PM To: blackbelly@lists.blackbellysheep.info; Rob Johnson Subject: [blackbelly] A Hard Pill to Swallow I am going to tell this story, because I am hoping it will benefit someone, perhaps get them thinking. The gears in my head are clashing and breaking right now. I am really conflicted. Barb Lee - raising $100 a pound lamb because of all the testing and bloody chemicals. ___ This message is from the blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info ___ This message is from the blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [blackbelly] A Hard Pill to Swallow
Oh, MY! Barb-- many of the older vets will say to let Nature run it's course-- as you so bluntly stated as what you are going to do in your last paragraph.Ni know a farmer-- that is ho9w he handles his vermin catching cats--- no vet sees them-- EVER!!! Just watch the critters close-- so you can hopefully see if one is recovering-- if one recovers from an extremely bad bout-- his/her resistance to whatever is bugging it will be a lot higher... Terry W __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ This message is from the blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [blackbelly] A Hard Pill to Swallow
Oh Barb! My heart goes out to you! I don't have any answers myself so I will be watching the replies to your post with interest. I had some isolated problems myself years ago with goats, a little different symptoms though. Every time I thought I knew what was going on, I was proven wrong. I didn't have the funds at the time to test, but I sure would have liked to. I think you're ahead of the game though to know what it isn't but still frustrating to not know what it is. I've been told that sometimes you just get an animal that doesn't have the immune system to carry it through, and that's why you cull. Don't give up! You have some beautiful animals! And your farming practices go beyond many that I have seen. Don't let a few keep you from your passion! As far as wormers, I would think that if the rest of your animals are doing well, then just separate and cull. Renee Harrison, ID snip I don't know whether to be thrilled to know what is going on, or whether to throw in the towel and say this is the stupidest thing I've ever gotten myself into. Barb Lee - raising $100 a pound lamb because of all the testing and bloody chemicals. ___ This message is from the blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info _ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee® Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ___ This message is from the blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
[blackbelly] Browsers/Grazers
Mark, your observation about browsers is astute, but I would apply a slightly different logic. Some of the goat websites I've read are so hysterical about cocci that they demand breeders remove all kids from their mothers immediately they are born, and rear them artificially. It's widely accepted that the leaves of deep-rooted trees and shrubs are mineral goldmines. The roots go into the subsoil, much deeper than most forbs and grasses (particularly poorly managed ones), and bring the minerals up from below, storing them in their leaves, which fall in autumn and enrich the topsoil. Working on the assumption that Nature has equipped the sheep with everything she needs to be a successful sheep, we could observe that many of our blackbelly sheep are voracious foragers. My sheep are as handy on their hind legs as any goat, and are always grabbing desperately for any fir, pine or apple leaves they can reach. If you observe the eating habits of the sheep, they are either telling us that leaves are simply tasty, or leaves are essential to their diet owing to the tremendous mineral content. Look at Chris' model - his sheep really ARE in heaven, a complete smorgasbord from which to select their own nutrition. A flock that thrives without intervention. To me, that says that Chris' farm is vastly more in balance than mine, where the sheep are primarily grazing on a limited assortment of grasses, grown in deficient soil. These are just my thoughts - I was deeply unsettled after discussing my lab results with the vet last night. I was ready to throw in the towel, but my husband gently and compassionately intervened. He helped steer me back into the middle of the channel without running aground as I frequently do. We kick back in bed in the morning with our cuppa, and the sheep train, a group of five individuals that we keep in the house yard, file into view - we could set our clock by them - rummaging around for something green to eat. We watch them, our two beautiful rams, a lamb and a pair of ewes soon to give birth, and that deep-rooted respect and admiration well up, and I know I am not ready to give up, even though I can feel pretty defeated sometimes. Not yet though. I read recently that hazelnut leaves are loaded with minerals, so I just harvested a bunch for the sheep, out of a brushy paddock that is not quite ready for sheep yet. It leads a person in a whole 'nother direction - the dangers of monoculture in agriculture. I think I may start looking at that pasture and figuring out how to make it more productive for browsers. That could be a huge challenge. But maybe that is where this is all headed. I've been looking at ONLY the grass. I haven't been seeing the whole picture. The sheep are like a barometer of habitat health. I think I have been missing a large part of the picture. That can happen sometimes! Barb L. ___ This message is from the blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [blackbelly] A Hard Pill to Swallow
Chris, I noticed your email address has the word bulls in it. Which makes me wonder, do you run sheep and cattle on the same pasture? Could there be some parasite resistance conferred by multi-species grazing going on here as well? Stephanie On Aug 4, 2006, at 12:13 PM, William Buchanan wrote: After reading this and other replies I must admit I feel sort of lucky. I live in hot, wet, muggy Alabama where most people with Dorpers and goats must worm every 3 weeks and even then they are fighting a losing battle according to my vet. Compared to you Barb, my methods are pretty reckless(careless, lazy). I have never tested anything(sheep, forgage, soil) and only wormed once in eight years. I only wormed them then because I had been raising them for four years and hadn't wormed yet, so I just felt like I should. But, I took my vets advice after that one worming and never wormed again. He told me I would probably lose some along the way, but the ones that survived should be resistant. He appears to have been right. The following year I lost several lambs between 4 and 8 months old. The next year I lost a couple of yearling ewes and several more lambs. Last year I only lost a few lambs and this year zero(out of 49 lambs). During this time I never lost any of my older adults. I am figuring it is a combination of genetics and environment. I have 22 acres which is half woods and half pasture. I usually winter over about 40 adults and after lambing I sell most lambs and keep a few. So, my place is definitely not overcrowded but there are enough to keep the place completely groomed which is ultimately why I got them in the first place. They get an EXTREME variety of saplings, weeds, cedars, vines, and different grasses(I think I have a small patch of every kind of grass there is...). My sheep always have access to a trace mineral block(w/copper)and I also have a plastic barrel of Purina Sheep Mineral hanging in the woods. I let them worry about how much of it to consume. I also throw some dog food over the fence when the mood strikes me. In the winter I provide them with hay and a small amount of corn. They appear to be adequately nourished and happy. Some ewes have triplets, most have twins. Chris B. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Barb Lee Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 8:48 PM To: blackbelly@lists.blackbellysheep.info; Rob Johnson Subject: [blackbelly] A Hard Pill to Swallow I am going to tell this story, because I am hoping it will benefit someone, perhaps get them thinking. The gears in my head are clashing and breaking right now. I am really conflicted. Ever since sheep set foot on my virgin property about 2-1/2 years ago - the first sheep in 25 years, I have had the occasional animal felled by scouring/wasting. Just out of the blue. No sign of illness at first, but then a slow decline with no recovery, even with treatment, except for one who continues to poop something between dog manure and green pancake batter, but manages to maintain a good weight. By most standards, I would say I run a pretty clean, tight little farm. Lots of rotational grazing. Low stocking density. I do fecal tests routinely. Clean environment and with a parasite program that has included chemical worming, Basic H worming and cocci prevention. I know, I know, bad bad bad. These animals are parasite resistant. Yeah, uh huh. Tell me another one. I have tested soils, forages, all feeds and tried to get their immune systems up with nutrition. Anyway, the most recent animal to start scouring was in a dry lot with 4 other ewes, weaning lambs. I tried cocci treatment. The condition got worse. I had wormed with Ivomec less than two months before. It was warm and dry. They were eating dry grass hay out of a manger, not off the ground. She was young and in good flesh. I had had enough with all this chemical crap. Enough of guessing what was going on. We slaughtered the animal, sent the carcass to the butcher and sent the guts to the vet. He took samples of everything - EVERYTHING and sent them to Oregon State University. The best news I got back today is that once and for all, Johne's disease is ruled out. The other good news is that it is NOT the super cocci eimeria that is running rampant in Oregon right now, that kills its host and is immune to all drugs. You know what is killing my sheep? Parasites! Bloody parasites!!! She had lesions on her intestinal wall from cocci. There were cocci eggs and strongyle eggs in her gut enough to cause clinical disease. So what is the protocol? Oh yeah, professional fecals, what? Monthly? And industrial strength CHEMICALS. Of course! More, and heavier doses! YOU guys - YOU tell me what you would do when your fine, healthy so called parasite resistant animals are s***ting
