Re: [Blackbelly] Underdeveloped twin, please help
I fed my babies for 3 months. I should have weaned them sooner maybe but when they started to eat on their own I had to substitute warm water for a couple of weeks just to ease them off. Aloha a hui hou kaua! (Goodbye until we meet again) Barbara Heavens POB 1869, Kea`au, Hawaii 96749 (808) 968-0814 ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] Underdeveloped twin, please help
PS: I hope folks are using Lamb replacer and not Goat Replacer. All the goat people around here use cow's milk for the goats and seems to work fine after a couple of weeks. We all want the goat milk for cheese/soap making and we like tame goats (especially if they arent' de-horned). We have a new association here for Sheep and Goats since they are quite popular to control our constant supply of weeds. PSS: You put the guava juice in the front end, not the back end. Just wanted to make sure that was clear. Aloha a hui hou kaua! (Goodbye until we meet again) Barbara Heavens POB 1869, Kea`au, Hawaii 96749 (808) 968-0814 ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] Underdeveloped twin, please help
I have had a couple of goat kids over the years that were small and not as lively as their siblings but seemed okay until about three weeks, when they went downhill rapidly. Since this is about the time the rumen should be developing, I theorized that there was a rumen problem which is why they were okay as long as they were only drinking milk. I nursed them along, but they never did well and died within a couple weeks. The autopsy revealed a malformed rumen and a lot of backed-up, undigested milk. I don't know if this is what your lamb has, or if lambs can have this problem, too, but my vet didn't think it was hereditary, only congenital. Bonnie - Original Message - From: Michael Smith mwsmotorspo...@gmail.com To: blackbelly@lists.blackbellysheep.info Sent: Saturday, February 28, 2009 10:17 PM Subject: [Blackbelly] Underdeveloped twin, please help Had a ewe with one of her twins half the weight of the other. At 2 weeks, he's 4.5lbs and she is 8lbs. His name is Bam Bam. here he is on his birthday, you can see the size difference: http://picasaweb.google.com/mwsmotorsports/February_LambS213091011AM#5302876349358364882 Noticed after a few days, he was always listless, hunched, not frolicking, and I started to bottle-feed him some pasteurized goat's milk from the store, to supplement what he was getting from his mom. His mom would feed both sibs, but Bam Bam seemed never to be getting more energy. After supplementing her feeding, he seemed to rally a bit, At this point, it was time for us to separate the lambs, since we were planning to bottle-feed them from here on out, anyway. He again became more listless and no prancing around. He has never been a bottle-puncher and always acts like he is full. trying to be patient with him, you're lucky to get 1oz in in 10 minutes. The other 8-10 lb lambs, of course, can kill 10oz in a feeding. His temp was about 100.3 in the middle of the day. Being new to sheep, I took him in to the local livestock vet who is also a sheep breeder. He suggested tubing him, and taught me how, and we got 4oz in him the first time. I was very encouraged. But, each time thereafter, I'd get a bit in, and then when adjusting the tube a bit, the syringe/funnel (no plunger in syringe) would fill back up with 20cc of milk or so, with a rancid smell. In the mornings, even in an enclosure with a heat lamp, his temp could be as low as 95.5. Usually 97.5 or so. Two days of trying to tube always resulted in the rancid milk and in one case, vomiting. Took him in this morning and the doc tried to tube him himself. Same result, he said the reticulum was holding the milk till it was going bad, which is why he gets no nutrients. He credited the smell with the milk being spoiled and mixed with mucous. I thought it was bile but he said sheep don't have bile in their reticulum. His diagnosis: the little ram is not fully passing the milk on thru his digestive tract. He has some feces and urine, but not enough. His prescription: Today has been sub-Q dextrose only 4x a day, and one vit-B shot (1/2 cc) per day. Try to get any remaining milk thru his system. Tomorrow will be: electrolytes via tube, and vit-B. Towards the end of the day, if I can mix in a bit of milk, to add to the tube, I will try. The point is to try to get his temp up and get him digesting. My question: is he just mal-formed and doomed, or has anyone seen a case where he could be less developed than his sister and be nursed along until his digestive tract catches on? Michael. Perino Ranch Blackbellies. ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.11.4/1976 - Release Date: 02/27/09 13:27:00 ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] Underdeveloped twin, please help
Hi Michael, The lamb may be doomed but I have saved some in the past like this. I believe you are working on the wrong end of the lamb. Take a syringe (no needle) with warm water and insert it in the anus and fill the lamb up until water starts coming out when you pull the syringe out (enema). After the water has cleared out do it again. The lamb will likely pass some very hard feces that has him plugged up. Just keep doing the warm water treatment until you feel you are not getting any more results. Remember you are dealing with a baby so be easy with the syringe water pressure! Once the very hard feces is out you are back to trying/hoping the lamb will eat. If he starts eating well you will probably save him. Good Luck, Mark Wintermute Had a ewe with one of her twins half the weight of the other. At 2 weeks, he's 4.5lbs and she is 8lbs. His name is Bam Bam. here he is on his birthday, you can see the size difference: http://picasaweb.google.com/mwsmotorsports/February_LambS213091011AM#5302876 349358364882 Noticed after a few days, he was always listless, hunched, not frolicking, and I started to bottle-feed him some pasteurized goat's milk from the store, to supplement what he was getting from his mom. His mom would feed both sibs, but Bam Bam seemed never to be getting more energy. After supplementing her feeding, he seemed to rally a bit, At this point, it was time for us to separate the lambs, since we were planning to bottle-feed them from here on out, anyway. He again became more listless and no prancing around. He has never been a bottle-puncher and always acts like he is full. trying to be patient with him, you're lucky to get 1oz in in 10 minutes. The other 8-10 lb lambs, of course, can kill 10oz in a feeding. His temp was about 100.3 in the middle of the day. Being new to sheep, I took him in to the local livestock vet who is also a sheep breeder. He suggested tubing him, and taught me how, and we got 4oz in him the first time. I was very encouraged. But, each time thereafter, I'd get a bit in, and then when adjusting the tube a bit, the syringe/funnel (no plunger in syringe) would fill back up with 20cc of milk or so, with a rancid smell. In the mornings, even in an enclosure with a heat lamp, his temp could be as low as 95.5. Usually 97.5 or so. Two days of trying to tube always resulted in the rancid milk and in one case, vomiting. Took him in this morning and the doc tried to tube him himself. Same result, he said the reticulum was holding the milk till it was going bad, which is why he gets no nutrients. He credited the smell with the milk being spoiled and mixed with mucous. I thought it was bile but he said sheep don't have bile in their reticulum. His diagnosis: the little ram is not fully passing the milk on thru his digestive tract. He has some feces and urine, but not enough. His prescription: Today has been sub-Q dextrose only 4x a day, and one vit-B shot (1/2 cc) per day. Try to get any remaining milk thru his system. Tomorrow will be: electrolytes via tube, and vit-B. Towards the end of the day, if I can mix in a bit of milk, to add to the tube, I will try. The point is to try to get his temp up and get him digesting. My question: is he just mal-formed and doomed, or has anyone seen a case where he could be less developed than his sister and be nursed along until his digestive tract catches on? Michael. Perino Ranch Blackbellies. ___ ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] Underdeveloped twin, please help
Mark: You jogged my memory. An enema is probably just what the little one needs. From looking at the pictures that lamb looks like it is fine, just small. Also, I might add when bottle feeding if you will gently massage the little one's belly and guts it helps the motility of the guts. This is a necessity with dogs and cats, and helps with ruminants. Not a lot, but contact and rubbing really helps. Mama usually will sock on them a lot to ge their guts working. I would not give up on it yet. Just make sure not to let it aspirate any liquid or you will be dealing with pneumonia.. I would add a little of the guava juice, but being careful not to put too much sugars into the back end and make the clostridium baacteria flare up... I have slept with my bottle babies on my chest just to give them a live warm body to be close to. Cecil in OKla The Wintermutes wrote: Hi Michael, The lamb may be doomed but I have saved some in the past like this. I believe you are working on the wrong end of the lamb. Take a syringe (no needle) with warm water and insert it in the anus and fill the lamb up until water starts coming out when you pull the syringe out (enema). After the water has cleared out do it again. The lamb will likely pass some very hard feces that has him plugged up. Just keep doing the warm water treatment until you feel you are not getting any more results. Remember you are dealing with a baby so be easy with the syringe water pressure! Once the very hard feces is out you are back to trying/hoping the lamb will eat. If he starts eating well you will probably save him. Good Luck, Mark Wintermute Had a ewe with one of her twins half the weight of the other. At 2 weeks, he's 4.5lbs and she is 8lbs. His name is Bam Bam. here he is on his birthday, you can see the size difference: http://picasaweb.google.com/mwsmotorsports/February_LambS213091011AM#5302876 349358364882 Noticed after a few days, he was always listless, hunched, not frolicking, and I started to bottle-feed him some pasteurized goat's milk from the store, to supplement what he was getting from his mom. His mom would feed both sibs, but Bam Bam seemed never to be getting more energy. After supplementing her feeding, he seemed to rally a bit, At this point, it was time for us to separate the lambs, since we were planning to bottle-feed them from here on out, anyway. He again became more listless and no prancing around. He has never been a bottle-puncher and always acts like he is full. trying to be patient with him, you're lucky to get 1oz in in 10 minutes. The other 8-10 lb lambs, of course, can kill 10oz in a feeding. His temp was about 100.3 in the middle of the day. Being new to sheep, I took him in to the local livestock vet who is also a sheep breeder. He suggested tubing him, and taught me how, and we got 4oz in him the first time. I was very encouraged. But, each time thereafter, I'd get a bit in, and then when adjusting the tube a bit, the syringe/funnel (no plunger in syringe) would fill back up with 20cc of milk or so, with a rancid smell. In the mornings, even in an enclosure with a heat lamp, his temp could be as low as 95.5. Usually 97.5 or so. Two days of trying to tube always resulted in the rancid milk and in one case, vomiting. Took him in this morning and the doc tried to tube him himself. Same result, he said the reticulum was holding the milk till it was going bad, which is why he gets no nutrients. He credited the smell with the milk being spoiled and mixed with mucous. I thought it was bile but he said sheep don't have bile in their reticulum. His diagnosis: the little ram is not fully passing the milk on thru his digestive tract. He has some feces and urine, but not enough. His prescription: Today has been sub-Q dextrose only 4x a day, and one vit-B shot (1/2 cc) per day. Try to get any remaining milk thru his system. Tomorrow will be: electrolytes via tube, and vit-B. Towards the end of the day, if I can mix in a bit of milk, to add to the tube, I will try. The point is to try to get his temp up and get him digesting. My question: is he just mal-formed and doomed, or has anyone seen a case where he could be less developed than his sister and be nursed along until his digestive tract catches on? Michael. Perino Ranch Blackbellies. ___ ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] Underdeveloped twin, please help
I had a twin born early. As I noted before we lost the other lamb and the momma but as I have never dealt with an early baby I would like to also have a question answered. She, Blessing, is slowly starting to eat more and more of her bottle but when as a preemie should we offer her hay, feed, etc. Not sure and the weather has gone crazy here in OK so we are not taking her out much. oj in ok Oneta and The Gang www.johnsonquarterhorses.com Don't tell GOD what to do, just report for duty! --- On Sun, 3/1/09, Cecil Bearden crbear...@copper.net wrote: From: Cecil Bearden crbear...@copper.net Subject: Re: [Blackbelly] Underdeveloped twin, please help To: blackbelly@lists.blackbellysheep.info Date: Sunday, March 1, 2009, 7:40 PM Mark: You jogged my memory. An enema is probably just what the little one needs. From looking at the pictures that lamb looks like it is fine, just small. Also, I might add when bottle feeding if you will gently massage the little one's belly and guts it helps the motility of the guts. This is a necessity with dogs and cats, and helps with ruminants. Not a lot, but contact and rubbing really helps. Mama usually will sock on them a lot to ge their guts working. I would not give up on it yet. Just make sure not to let it aspirate any liquid or you will be dealing with pneumonia.. I would add a little of the guava juice, but being careful not to put too much sugars into the back end and make the clostridium baacteria flare up... I have slept with my bottle babies on my chest just to give them a live warm body to be close to. Cecil in OKla The Wintermutes wrote: Hi Michael, The lamb may be doomed but I have saved some in the past like this. I believe you are working on the wrong end of the lamb. Take a syringe (no needle) with warm water and insert it in the anus and fill the lamb up until water starts coming out when you pull the syringe out (enema). After the water has cleared out do it again. The lamb will likely pass some very hard feces that has him plugged up. Just keep doing the warm water treatment until you feel you are not getting any more results. Remember you are dealing with a baby so be easy with the syringe water pressure! Once the very hard feces is out you are back to trying/hoping the lamb will eat. If he starts eating well you will probably save him. Good Luck, Mark Wintermute Had a ewe with one of her twins half the weight of the other. At 2 weeks, he's 4.5lbs and she is 8lbs. His name is Bam Bam. here he is on his birthday, you can see the size difference: http://picasaweb.google.com/mwsmotorsports/February_LambS213091011AM#5302876 349358364882 Noticed after a few days, he was always listless, hunched, not frolicking, and I started to bottle-feed him some pasteurized goat's milk from the store, to supplement what he was getting from his mom. His mom would feed both sibs, but Bam Bam seemed never to be getting more energy. After supplementing her feeding, he seemed to rally a bit, At this point, it was time for us to separate the lambs, since we were planning to bottle-feed them from here on out, anyway. He again became more listless and no prancing around. He has never been a bottle-puncher and always acts like he is full. trying to be patient with him, you're lucky to get 1oz in in 10 minutes. The other 8-10 lb lambs, of course, can kill 10oz in a feeding. His temp was about 100.3 in the middle of the day. Being new to sheep, I took him in to the local livestock vet who is also a sheep breeder. He suggested tubing him, and taught me how, and we got 4oz in him the first time. I was very encouraged. But, each time thereafter, I'd get a bit in, and then when adjusting the tube a bit, the syringe/funnel (no plunger in syringe) would fill back up with 20cc of milk or so, with a rancid smell. In the mornings, even in an enclosure with a heat lamp, his temp could be as low as 95.5. Usually 97.5 or so. Two days of trying to tube always resulted in the rancid milk and in one case, vomiting. Took him in this morning and the doc tried to tube him himself. Same result, he said the reticulum was holding the milk till it was going bad, which is why he gets no nutrients. He credited the smell with the milk being spoiled and mixed with mucous. I thought it was bile but he said sheep don't have bile in their reticulum. His diagnosis: the little ram is not fully passing the milk on thru his digestive tract. He has some feces and urine, but not enough. His prescription: Today has been sub-Q dextrose only 4x a day, and one vit-B shot (1/2 cc) per day. Try to get any remaining milk thru his system. Tomorrow will be: electrolytes via tube, and vit-B. Towards the end of the day, if I can mix in a bit of milk, to add to the tube, I will try
Re: [Blackbelly] Underdeveloped twin, please help
I would make available small amounts of hay for her to nibble on. You may have to put it in her mouth. When she starts to pass pellet forms, she should be trying to eat hay or grass.. With no mama to imprint on, she will be late in eating grass. Grass really tastes bad too!!! Cecil in OKla o johnson wrote: I had a twin born early. As I noted before we lost the other lamb and the momma but as I have never dealt with an early baby I would like to also have a question answered. She, Blessing, is slowly starting to eat more and more of her bottle but when as a preemie should we offer her hay, feed, etc. Not sure and the weather has gone crazy here in OK so we are not taking her out much. oj in ok Oneta and The Gang www.johnsonquarterhorses.com Don't tell GOD what to do, just report for duty! --- On Sun, 3/1/09, Cecil Bearden crbear...@copper.net wrote: From: Cecil Bearden crbear...@copper.net Subject: Re: [Blackbelly] Underdeveloped twin, please help To: blackbelly@lists.blackbellysheep.info Date: Sunday, March 1, 2009, 7:40 PM Mark: You jogged my memory. An enema is probably just what the little one needs. From looking at the pictures that lamb looks like it is fine, just small. Also, I might add when bottle feeding if you will gently massage the little one's belly and guts it helps the motility of the guts. This is a necessity with dogs and cats, and helps with ruminants. Not a lot, but contact and rubbing really helps. Mama usually will sock on them a lot to ge their guts working. I would not give up on it yet. Just make sure not to let it aspirate any liquid or you will be dealing with pneumonia.. I would add a little of the guava juice, but being careful not to put too much sugars into the back end and make the clostridium baacteria flare up... I have slept with my bottle babies on my chest just to give them a live warm body to be close to. Cecil in OKla The Wintermutes wrote: Hi Michael, The lamb may be doomed but I have saved some in the past like this. I believe you are working on the wrong end of the lamb. Take a syringe (no needle) with warm water and insert it in the anus and fill the lamb up until water starts coming out when you pull the syringe out (enema). After the water has cleared out do it again. The lamb will likely pass some very hard feces that has him plugged up. Just keep doing the warm water treatment until you feel you are not getting any more results. Remember you are dealing with a baby so be easy with the syringe water pressure! Once the very hard feces is out you are back to trying/hoping the lamb will eat. If he starts eating well you will probably save him. Good Luck, Mark Wintermute Had a ewe with one of her twins half the weight of the other. At 2 weeks, he's 4.5lbs and she is 8lbs. His name is Bam Bam. here he is on his birthday, you can see the size difference: http://picasaweb.google.com/mwsmotorsports/February_LambS213091011AM#5302876 349358364882 Noticed after a few days, he was always listless, hunched, not frolicking, and I started to bottle-feed him some pasteurized goat's milk from the store, to supplement what he was getting from his mom. His mom would feed both sibs, but Bam Bam seemed never to be getting more energy. After supplementing her feeding, he seemed to rally a bit, At this point, it was time for us to separate the lambs, since we were planning to bottle-feed them from here on out, anyway. He again became more listless and no prancing around. He has never been a bottle-puncher and always acts like he is full. trying to be patient with him, you're lucky to get 1oz in in 10 minutes. The other 8-10 lb lambs, of course, can kill 10oz in a feeding. His temp was about 100.3 in the middle of the day. Being new to sheep, I took him in to the local livestock vet who is also a sheep breeder. He suggested tubing him, and taught me how, and we got 4oz in him the first time. I was very encouraged. But, each time thereafter, I'd get a bit in, and then when adjusting the tube a bit, the syringe/funnel (no plunger in syringe) would fill back up with 20cc of milk or so, with a rancid smell. In the mornings, even in an enclosure with a heat lamp, his temp could be as low as 95.5. Usually 97.5 or so. Two days of trying to tube always resulted in the rancid milk and in one case, vomiting. Took him in this morning and the doc tried to tube him himself. Same result, he said the reticulum was holding the milk till it was going bad, which is why he gets no nutrients. He credited the smell with the milk being spoiled and mixed with mucous. I thought it was bile but he said sheep don't have bile in their reticulum. His diagnosis: the little ram is not fully passing the milk on thru his digestive tract. He has some feces and urine, but not enough. His prescription: Today has been sub-Q dextrose only 4x a day, and one vit-B shot (1/2 cc) per day
Re: [Blackbelly] Underdeveloped twin, please help
I always use hay in a box or crate for the bedding of the bottle babies. Their rumen really doesn't get developed enough to do much until they are 30 days old or so. But the baby will nibble and consume small amounts of hay, pellets, grain, grass and such which stimulates the rumen to develop. So the more a lamb consumes the sooner he is ready physically to be weaned. For right now milk replacer and protection from the cold and pneumonia is most important. My rule of thumb for weaning is the lamb needs to weigh at least 25 pounds and be readily consuming hay/grass/grain and be beyond 30 days old (the older the better). My opinion, Mark I had a twin born early. As I noted before we lost the other lamb and the momma but as I have never dealt with an early baby I would like to also have a question answered. She, Blessing, is slowly starting to eat more and more of her bottle but when as a preemie should we offer her hay, feed, etc. Not sure and the weather has gone crazy here in OK so we are not taking her out much. oj in ok Oneta and The Gang ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
[Blackbelly] Underdeveloped twin, please help
Had a ewe with one of her twins half the weight of the other. At 2 weeks, he's 4.5lbs and she is 8lbs. His name is Bam Bam. here he is on his birthday, you can see the size difference: http://picasaweb.google.com/mwsmotorsports/February_LambS213091011AM#5302876349358364882 Noticed after a few days, he was always listless, hunched, not frolicking, and I started to bottle-feed him some pasteurized goat's milk from the store, to supplement what he was getting from his mom. His mom would feed both sibs, but Bam Bam seemed never to be getting more energy. After supplementing her feeding, he seemed to rally a bit, At this point, it was time for us to separate the lambs, since we were planning to bottle-feed them from here on out, anyway. He again became more listless and no prancing around. He has never been a bottle-puncher and always acts like he is full. trying to be patient with him, you're lucky to get 1oz in in 10 minutes. The other 8-10 lb lambs, of course, can kill 10oz in a feeding. His temp was about 100.3 in the middle of the day. Being new to sheep, I took him in to the local livestock vet who is also a sheep breeder. He suggested tubing him, and taught me how, and we got 4oz in him the first time. I was very encouraged. But, each time thereafter, I'd get a bit in, and then when adjusting the tube a bit, the syringe/funnel (no plunger in syringe) would fill back up with 20cc of milk or so, with a rancid smell. In the mornings, even in an enclosure with a heat lamp, his temp could be as low as 95.5. Usually 97.5 or so. Two days of trying to tube always resulted in the rancid milk and in one case, vomiting. Took him in this morning and the doc tried to tube him himself. Same result, he said the reticulum was holding the milk till it was going bad, which is why he gets no nutrients. He credited the smell with the milk being spoiled and mixed with mucous. I thought it was bile but he said sheep don't have bile in their reticulum. His diagnosis: the little ram is not fully passing the milk on thru his digestive tract. He has some feces and urine, but not enough. His prescription: Today has been sub-Q dextrose only 4x a day, and one vit-B shot (1/2 cc) per day. Try to get any remaining milk thru his system. Tomorrow will be: electrolytes via tube, and vit-B. Towards the end of the day, if I can mix in a bit of milk, to add to the tube, I will try. The point is to try to get his temp up and get him digesting. My question: is he just mal-formed and doomed, or has anyone seen a case where he could be less developed than his sister and be nursed along until his digestive tract catches on? Michael. Perino Ranch Blackbellies. ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] Underdeveloped twin, please help
Oh it's all too sad. I can only repeat myself to go get some Guava juice and feed it to the lamb. Aloha a hui hou kaua! (Goodbye until we meet again) Barbara Heavens POB 1869, Kea`au, Hawaii 96749 (808) 968-0814 ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] Underdeveloped twin, please help
At 07:17 PM 2/28/2009, Michael Smith wrote: He suggested tubing him, and taught me how, and we got 4oz in him the first time. I was very encouraged. But, each time thereafter, I'd get a bit in, and then when adjusting the tube a bit, the syringe/funnel (no plunger in syringe) would fill back up with 20cc of milk or so, with a rancid smell. I hate to say it, but probably the most merciful thing you can do is put him down. I've never successfully nursed a lamb or kid out of something like this. Even if they've lingered for a couple months, they have always died eventually... they just never do well. Julian ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
