Re: [blink-dev] Re: Intent to Ship: Deprecate and remove Theora support.

2023-10-25 Thread Dale Curtis 
On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 2:32 AM Philip Jägenstedt 
wrote:

> LGTM3 with sentimental feelings.
>
> Back in 2010 (https://dev.opera.com/blog/re-introducing-video/) I was
> cheering for Theora and shipped support in Presto. We now have other open
> and RF video codecs which have been deployed on a much larger scale, and
> I'd like to think that Theora and the Xiph folks helped make the case for
> why we needed those codecs. Thank you Theora!
>

+1, Theora definitely helped light the path to where we are today with
https://aomedia.org/. Thanks to all the early folks involved who got us
here.


>
> On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 10:37 AM Yoav Weiss 
> wrote:
>
>> LGTM2
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 24, 2023 at 7:05 PM Dale Curtis 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> WMF has long switched away from Theora (to VP9) per prior discussions
>>> with them and seconded by this comment:
>>> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T329258#9275042
>>>
>>> Switching to H264+MP4 is not necessary to avoid this deprecation.
>>> VP9+MP4, VP9/VP8+WEBM, or even VP8+OGG are all more viable open codec
>>> options.
>>>
>>> - dale
>>>
>>> On Mon, Oct 23, 2023 at 8:41 PM Yuhong Bao 
>>> wrote:
>>>

 I am asking the WMF to add MP4:
 https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T329258
 On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 8:53:14 AM UTC-7 Dale Curtis wrote:

> Contact emailsdalec...@chromium.org
>
> ExplainerNone
>
> Specificationhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theora
>
> Summary
>
> Chrome will deprecate and remove support for the Theora video codec in
> desktop Chrome due to emerging security risks. Theora's low (and now often
> incorrect) usage no longer justifies support for most users. Notes: - Zero
> day attacks against media codecs have spiked. - Usage has fallen below
> measurable levels in UKM. - The sites we manually inspected before levels
> dropped off were incorrectly preferring Theora over more modern codecs 
> like
> VP9. - It's never been supported by Safari or Chrome on Android. - An
> ogv.js polyfill exists for the sites that still need Theora support. - We
> are not removing support for ogg containers. Our plan is to begin
> escalating experiments turning down Theora support in M120. During this
> time users can reactivate Theora support via
> chrome://flags/#theora-video-codec if needed. The tentative timeline for
> this is (assuming everything goes smoothly): - ~Oct 23, 2023: begin 50/50
> canary dev experiments. - ~Nov 1-6, 2023: begin 50/50 beta experiments. -
> ~Dec 6, 2023: begin 1% stable experiments. - ~Jan 8, 2024: begin 50% 
> stable
> experiments. - ~Jan 16th, 2024: launch at 100%. - ~Feb 2024: remove code
> and chrome://flag in M123. - ~Mar 2024: Chrome 123 will roll to stable.
>
>
> Blink componentInternals>Media>Codecs
> 
>
> Search tagstheora , vp3
> , video
> 
>
> TAG reviewNone
>
> TAG review statusNot applicable
>
> Risks
>
>
> Interoperability and Compatibility
>
> Sites which only provide a Theora video source will no longer have
> video playback. These sites would already be broken in Chrome for Android
> or Safari.
>
>
> *Gecko*: Under consideration Private discussions. I asked if they'd
> like an RFP for this, but haven't yet heard back.
>
> *WebKit*: Shipped/Shipping (https://caniuse.com/ogv) Safari never
> shipped support for Theora.
>
> *Web developers*: Mixed signals Most developers are not likely to
> have an opinion, some may lament the loss of one of the first open codecs
> on the web.
>
> *Other signals*:
>
> Security
>
> Security positive change -- removes support for a complicated binary
> parsing and decoding mechanism.
>
>
> WebView application risks
>
> Does this intent deprecate or change behavior of existing APIs, such
> that it has potentially high risk for Android WebView-based applications?
>
> None, never supported on Android or WebView.
>
>
> Debuggability
>
> Can be debugged through media dev tools or chrome://media-internals.
>
>
> Will this feature be supported on all six Blink platforms (Windows,
> Mac, Linux, Chrome OS, Android, and Android WebView)?Yes
>
> Not currently supported on Chrome for Android.
>
>
> Is this feature fully tested by web-platform-tests
> 
> ?Yes
>
> As part of pre-work, I've switched all tests using Theora (of which
> there were hundreds) over to using VP8/VP9 where appropriate.
>
>
> Flag name on

Re: [blink-dev] Re: Intent to Ship: Deprecate and remove Theora support.

2023-10-25 Thread Philip Jägenstedt 
LGTM3 with sentimental feelings.

Back in 2010 (https://dev.opera.com/blog/re-introducing-video/) I was
cheering for Theora and shipped support in Presto. We now have other open
and RF video codecs which have been deployed on a much larger scale, and
I'd like to think that Theora and the Xiph folks helped make the case for
why we needed those codecs. Thank you Theora!

On Wed, Oct 25, 2023 at 10:37 AM Yoav Weiss  wrote:

> LGTM2
>
> On Tue, Oct 24, 2023 at 7:05 PM Dale Curtis 
> wrote:
>
>> WMF has long switched away from Theora (to VP9) per prior discussions
>> with them and seconded by this comment:
>> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T329258#9275042
>>
>> Switching to H264+MP4 is not necessary to avoid this deprecation.
>> VP9+MP4, VP9/VP8+WEBM, or even VP8+OGG are all more viable open codec
>> options.
>>
>> - dale
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 23, 2023 at 8:41 PM Yuhong Bao 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I am asking the WMF to add MP4:
>>> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T329258
>>> On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 8:53:14 AM UTC-7 Dale Curtis wrote:
>>>
 Contact emailsdalec...@chromium.org

 ExplainerNone

 Specificationhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theora

 Summary

 Chrome will deprecate and remove support for the Theora video codec in
 desktop Chrome due to emerging security risks. Theora's low (and now often
 incorrect) usage no longer justifies support for most users. Notes: - Zero
 day attacks against media codecs have spiked. - Usage has fallen below
 measurable levels in UKM. - The sites we manually inspected before levels
 dropped off were incorrectly preferring Theora over more modern codecs like
 VP9. - It's never been supported by Safari or Chrome on Android. - An
 ogv.js polyfill exists for the sites that still need Theora support. - We
 are not removing support for ogg containers. Our plan is to begin
 escalating experiments turning down Theora support in M120. During this
 time users can reactivate Theora support via
 chrome://flags/#theora-video-codec if needed. The tentative timeline for
 this is (assuming everything goes smoothly): - ~Oct 23, 2023: begin 50/50
 canary dev experiments. - ~Nov 1-6, 2023: begin 50/50 beta experiments. -
 ~Dec 6, 2023: begin 1% stable experiments. - ~Jan 8, 2024: begin 50% stable
 experiments. - ~Jan 16th, 2024: launch at 100%. - ~Feb 2024: remove code
 and chrome://flag in M123. - ~Mar 2024: Chrome 123 will roll to stable.


 Blink componentInternals>Media>Codecs
 

 Search tagstheora , vp3
 , video
 

 TAG reviewNone

 TAG review statusNot applicable

 Risks


 Interoperability and Compatibility

 Sites which only provide a Theora video source will no longer have
 video playback. These sites would already be broken in Chrome for Android
 or Safari.


 *Gecko*: Under consideration Private discussions. I asked if they'd
 like an RFP for this, but haven't yet heard back.

 *WebKit*: Shipped/Shipping (https://caniuse.com/ogv) Safari never
 shipped support for Theora.

 *Web developers*: Mixed signals Most developers are not likely to have
 an opinion, some may lament the loss of one of the first open codecs on the
 web.

 *Other signals*:

 Security

 Security positive change -- removes support for a complicated binary
 parsing and decoding mechanism.


 WebView application risks

 Does this intent deprecate or change behavior of existing APIs, such
 that it has potentially high risk for Android WebView-based applications?

 None, never supported on Android or WebView.


 Debuggability

 Can be debugged through media dev tools or chrome://media-internals.


 Will this feature be supported on all six Blink platforms (Windows,
 Mac, Linux, Chrome OS, Android, and Android WebView)?Yes

 Not currently supported on Chrome for Android.


 Is this feature fully tested by web-platform-tests
 
 ?Yes

 As part of pre-work, I've switched all tests using Theora (of which
 there were hundreds) over to using VP8/VP9 where appropriate.


 Flag name on chrome://flagsTheoraVideoCodec

 Finch feature nameTheoraVideoCodec

 Requires code in //chrome?False

 Tracking bug
 https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=1489034

 Estimated milestones
 DevTrial on desktop 120

 Anticipated spec changes

 Open questions about a feature may be a source of

Re: [blink-dev] Re: Intent to Ship: Deprecate and remove Theora support.

2023-10-25 Thread Yoav Weiss 
LGTM2

On Tue, Oct 24, 2023 at 7:05 PM Dale Curtis  wrote:

> WMF has long switched away from Theora (to VP9) per prior discussions with
> them and seconded by this comment:
> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T329258#9275042
>
> Switching to H264+MP4 is not necessary to avoid this deprecation. VP9+MP4,
> VP9/VP8+WEBM, or even VP8+OGG are all more viable open codec options.
>
> - dale
>
> On Mon, Oct 23, 2023 at 8:41 PM Yuhong Bao 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> I am asking the WMF to add MP4:
>> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T329258
>> On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 8:53:14 AM UTC-7 Dale Curtis wrote:
>>
>>> Contact emailsdalec...@chromium.org
>>>
>>> ExplainerNone
>>>
>>> Specificationhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theora
>>>
>>> Summary
>>>
>>> Chrome will deprecate and remove support for the Theora video codec in
>>> desktop Chrome due to emerging security risks. Theora's low (and now often
>>> incorrect) usage no longer justifies support for most users. Notes: - Zero
>>> day attacks against media codecs have spiked. - Usage has fallen below
>>> measurable levels in UKM. - The sites we manually inspected before levels
>>> dropped off were incorrectly preferring Theora over more modern codecs like
>>> VP9. - It's never been supported by Safari or Chrome on Android. - An
>>> ogv.js polyfill exists for the sites that still need Theora support. - We
>>> are not removing support for ogg containers. Our plan is to begin
>>> escalating experiments turning down Theora support in M120. During this
>>> time users can reactivate Theora support via
>>> chrome://flags/#theora-video-codec if needed. The tentative timeline for
>>> this is (assuming everything goes smoothly): - ~Oct 23, 2023: begin 50/50
>>> canary dev experiments. - ~Nov 1-6, 2023: begin 50/50 beta experiments. -
>>> ~Dec 6, 2023: begin 1% stable experiments. - ~Jan 8, 2024: begin 50% stable
>>> experiments. - ~Jan 16th, 2024: launch at 100%. - ~Feb 2024: remove code
>>> and chrome://flag in M123. - ~Mar 2024: Chrome 123 will roll to stable.
>>>
>>>
>>> Blink componentInternals>Media>Codecs
>>> 
>>>
>>> Search tagstheora , vp3
>>> , video
>>> 
>>>
>>> TAG reviewNone
>>>
>>> TAG review statusNot applicable
>>>
>>> Risks
>>>
>>>
>>> Interoperability and Compatibility
>>>
>>> Sites which only provide a Theora video source will no longer have video
>>> playback. These sites would already be broken in Chrome for Android or
>>> Safari.
>>>
>>>
>>> *Gecko*: Under consideration Private discussions. I asked if they'd
>>> like an RFP for this, but haven't yet heard back.
>>>
>>> *WebKit*: Shipped/Shipping (https://caniuse.com/ogv) Safari never
>>> shipped support for Theora.
>>>
>>> *Web developers*: Mixed signals Most developers are not likely to have
>>> an opinion, some may lament the loss of one of the first open codecs on the
>>> web.
>>>
>>> *Other signals*:
>>>
>>> Security
>>>
>>> Security positive change -- removes support for a complicated binary
>>> parsing and decoding mechanism.
>>>
>>>
>>> WebView application risks
>>>
>>> Does this intent deprecate or change behavior of existing APIs, such
>>> that it has potentially high risk for Android WebView-based applications?
>>>
>>> None, never supported on Android or WebView.
>>>
>>>
>>> Debuggability
>>>
>>> Can be debugged through media dev tools or chrome://media-internals.
>>>
>>>
>>> Will this feature be supported on all six Blink platforms (Windows, Mac,
>>> Linux, Chrome OS, Android, and Android WebView)?Yes
>>>
>>> Not currently supported on Chrome for Android.
>>>
>>>
>>> Is this feature fully tested by web-platform-tests
>>> 
>>> ?Yes
>>>
>>> As part of pre-work, I've switched all tests using Theora (of which
>>> there were hundreds) over to using VP8/VP9 where appropriate.
>>>
>>>
>>> Flag name on chrome://flagsTheoraVideoCodec
>>>
>>> Finch feature nameTheoraVideoCodec
>>>
>>> Requires code in //chrome?False
>>>
>>> Tracking bug
>>> https://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=1489034
>>>
>>> Estimated milestones
>>> DevTrial on desktop 120
>>>
>>> Anticipated spec changes
>>>
>>> Open questions about a feature may be a source of future web compat or
>>> interop issues. Please list open issues (e.g. links to known github issues
>>> in the project for the feature specification) whose resolution may
>>> introduce web compat/interop risk (e.g., changing to naming or structure of
>>> the API in a non-backward-compatible way).
>>> None
>>>
>>> Link to entry on the Chrome Platform Status
>>> https://chromestatus.com/feature/5158654475239424
>>>
>>> This intent message was generated by Chrome Platform Status
>>> .
>>>
>> --
> You received this message because you

[blink-dev] Re: Intent to Ship: Deprecate and remove Theora support.

2023-10-24 Thread Dale Curtis 
WMF has long switched away from Theora (to VP9) per prior discussions with
them and seconded by this comment:
https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T329258#9275042

Switching to H264+MP4 is not necessary to avoid this deprecation. VP9+MP4,
VP9/VP8+WEBM, or even VP8+OGG are all more viable open codec options.

- dale

On Mon, Oct 23, 2023 at 8:41 PM Yuhong Bao  wrote:

>
> I am asking the WMF to add MP4:
> https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T329258
> On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 8:53:14 AM UTC-7 Dale Curtis wrote:
>
>> Contact emailsdalec...@chromium.org
>>
>> ExplainerNone
>>
>> Specificationhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theora
>>
>> Summary
>>
>> Chrome will deprecate and remove support for the Theora video codec in
>> desktop Chrome due to emerging security risks. Theora's low (and now often
>> incorrect) usage no longer justifies support for most users. Notes: - Zero
>> day attacks against media codecs have spiked. - Usage has fallen below
>> measurable levels in UKM. - The sites we manually inspected before levels
>> dropped off were incorrectly preferring Theora over more modern codecs like
>> VP9. - It's never been supported by Safari or Chrome on Android. - An
>> ogv.js polyfill exists for the sites that still need Theora support. - We
>> are not removing support for ogg containers. Our plan is to begin
>> escalating experiments turning down Theora support in M120. During this
>> time users can reactivate Theora support via
>> chrome://flags/#theora-video-codec if needed. The tentative timeline for
>> this is (assuming everything goes smoothly): - ~Oct 23, 2023: begin 50/50
>> canary dev experiments. - ~Nov 1-6, 2023: begin 50/50 beta experiments. -
>> ~Dec 6, 2023: begin 1% stable experiments. - ~Jan 8, 2024: begin 50% stable
>> experiments. - ~Jan 16th, 2024: launch at 100%. - ~Feb 2024: remove code
>> and chrome://flag in M123. - ~Mar 2024: Chrome 123 will roll to stable.
>>
>>
>> Blink componentInternals>Media>Codecs
>> 
>>
>> Search tagstheora , vp3
>> , video
>> 
>>
>> TAG reviewNone
>>
>> TAG review statusNot applicable
>>
>> Risks
>>
>>
>> Interoperability and Compatibility
>>
>> Sites which only provide a Theora video source will no longer have video
>> playback. These sites would already be broken in Chrome for Android or
>> Safari.
>>
>>
>> *Gecko*: Under consideration Private discussions. I asked if they'd like
>> an RFP for this, but haven't yet heard back.
>>
>> *WebKit*: Shipped/Shipping (https://caniuse.com/ogv) Safari never
>> shipped support for Theora.
>>
>> *Web developers*: Mixed signals Most developers are not likely to have
>> an opinion, some may lament the loss of one of the first open codecs on the
>> web.
>>
>> *Other signals*:
>>
>> Security
>>
>> Security positive change -- removes support for a complicated binary
>> parsing and decoding mechanism.
>>
>>
>> WebView application risks
>>
>> Does this intent deprecate or change behavior of existing APIs, such that
>> it has potentially high risk for Android WebView-based applications?
>>
>> None, never supported on Android or WebView.
>>
>>
>> Debuggability
>>
>> Can be debugged through media dev tools or chrome://media-internals.
>>
>>
>> Will this feature be supported on all six Blink platforms (Windows, Mac,
>> Linux, Chrome OS, Android, and Android WebView)?Yes
>>
>> Not currently supported on Chrome for Android.
>>
>>
>> Is this feature fully tested by web-platform-tests
>> 
>> ?Yes
>>
>> As part of pre-work, I've switched all tests using Theora (of which there
>> were hundreds) over to using VP8/VP9 where appropriate.
>>
>>
>> Flag name on chrome://flagsTheoraVideoCodec
>>
>> Finch feature nameTheoraVideoCodec
>>
>> Requires code in //chrome?False
>>
>> Tracking bughttps://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=1489034
>>
>> Estimated milestones
>> DevTrial on desktop 120
>>
>> Anticipated spec changes
>>
>> Open questions about a feature may be a source of future web compat or
>> interop issues. Please list open issues (e.g. links to known github issues
>> in the project for the feature specification) whose resolution may
>> introduce web compat/interop risk (e.g., changing to naming or structure of
>> the API in a non-backward-compatible way).
>> None
>>
>> Link to entry on the Chrome Platform Status
>> https://chromestatus.com/feature/5158654475239424
>>
>> This intent message was generated by Chrome Platform Status
>> .
>>
>

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Re: [blink-dev] Re: Intent to Ship: Deprecate and remove Theora support.

2023-10-24 Thread Mike Taylor 

LGTM1 to deprecate and remove. RIP Theora, we hardly knew ye.

On 10/24/23 1:01 PM, Dale Curtis wrote:
On Tue, Oct 24, 2023 at 4:49 AM Mike Taylor  
wrote:


On 10/23/23 1:13 PM, Dale Curtis wrote:


On Mon, Oct 23, 2023 at 10:02 AM Mike Taylor
 wrote:

On 10/23/23 11:54 AM, Dale Curtis wrote:


Hmm, not sure why the description got reflowed, here's the
formatted version:

Chrome will deprecate and remove support for the Theora
video codec in desktop Chrome due to emerging security
risks. Theora's low (and now often incorrect) usage no
longer justifies support for most users.

Notes:
- Zero day attacks against media codecs have spiked.
- Usage has fallen below measurable levels in UKM.
- The sites we manually inspected before levels dropped off
were incorrectly preferring Theora over more modern codecs
like VP9.

Meaning, once Theora support is gone, video playback
continues to work for all sites you inspected because media
source selection found something else playable?


Correct, if Theora support was missing users would have a higher
quality experience due to a more modern codec being selected.


- It's never been supported by Safari or Chrome on Android.
- An ogv.js polyfill exists for the sites that still need
Theora support.
- We are not removing support for ogg containers.

Our plan is to begin escalating experiments turning down
Theora support in M120. During this time users can
reactivate Theora support via
chrome://flags/#theora-video-codec if needed.

The tentative timeline for this is (assuming everything goes
smoothly):
- ~Oct 23, 2023: begin 50/50 canary dev experiments.
- ~Nov 1-6, 2023: begin 50/50 beta experiments.
- ~Dec 6, 2023: begin 1% stable experiments.

Even though UKM appears to be exceedingly low, if you're not
100% confident this will be a no-op, you might consider
beginning the stable experiment after the new year (and many
production freezes).


I did consider this and ran this plan by Finch team ahead of
time, however given the low usage, long dev/beta experiments,
that these sites would already be broken on Android/Safari, and
that we'd still have time to turn down the 1% stable experiment
before Finch freeze, leaving at 1% until after holiday freezes
should be safe.


OK, that sounds reasonable. Can you also request the rest of the
review bits in the chromestatus entry?

Done, thanks I thought that was automatic these days.



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Re: [blink-dev] Re: Intent to Ship: Deprecate and remove Theora support.

2023-10-24 Thread Dale Curtis 
On Tue, Oct 24, 2023 at 4:49 AM Mike Taylor  wrote:

> On 10/23/23 1:13 PM, Dale Curtis wrote:
>
> On Mon, Oct 23, 2023 at 10:02 AM Mike Taylor 
> wrote:
>
>> On 10/23/23 11:54 AM, Dale Curtis wrote:
>>
>> Hmm, not sure why the description got reflowed, here's the formatted
>> version:
>>
>> Chrome will deprecate and remove support for the Theora video codec in
>> desktop Chrome due to emerging security risks. Theora's low (and now often
>> incorrect) usage no longer justifies support for most users.
>>
>> Notes:
>> - Zero day attacks against media codecs have spiked.
>> - Usage has fallen below measurable levels in UKM.
>> - The sites we manually inspected before levels dropped off were
>> incorrectly preferring Theora over more modern codecs like VP9.
>>
>> Meaning, once Theora support is gone, video playback continues to work
>> for all sites you inspected because media source selection found something
>> else playable?
>>
>
> Correct, if Theora support was missing users would have a higher quality
> experience due to a more modern codec being selected.
>
>
>> - It's never been supported by Safari or Chrome on Android.
>> - An ogv.js polyfill exists for the sites that still need Theora support.
>> - We are not removing support for ogg containers.
>>
>> Our plan is to begin escalating experiments turning down Theora support
>> in M120. During this time users can reactivate Theora support via
>> chrome://flags/#theora-video-codec if needed.
>>
>> The tentative timeline for this is (assuming everything goes smoothly):
>> - ~Oct 23, 2023: begin 50/50 canary dev experiments.
>> - ~Nov 1-6, 2023: begin 50/50 beta experiments.
>> - ~Dec 6, 2023: begin 1% stable experiments.
>>
>> Even though UKM appears to be exceedingly low, if you're not 100%
>> confident this will be a no-op, you might consider beginning the stable
>> experiment after the new year (and many production freezes).
>>
>
> I did consider this and ran this plan by Finch team ahead of time, however
> given the low usage, long dev/beta experiments, that these sites would
> already be broken on Android/Safari, and that we'd still have time to turn
> down the 1% stable experiment before Finch freeze, leaving at 1% until
> after holiday freezes should be safe.
>
> OK, that sounds reasonable. Can you also request the rest of the review
> bits in the chromestatus entry?
>
Done, thanks I thought that was automatic these days.

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Re: [blink-dev] Re: Intent to Ship: Deprecate and remove Theora support.

2023-10-24 Thread Mike Taylor 

On 10/23/23 1:13 PM, Dale Curtis wrote:

On Mon, Oct 23, 2023 at 10:02 AM Mike Taylor  
wrote:


On 10/23/23 11:54 AM, Dale Curtis wrote:


Hmm, not sure why the description got reflowed, here's the
formatted version:

Chrome will deprecate and remove support for the Theora video
codec in desktop Chrome due to emerging security risks. Theora's
low (and now often incorrect) usage no longer justifies support
for most users.

Notes:
- Zero day attacks against media codecs have spiked.
- Usage has fallen below measurable levels in UKM.
- The sites we manually inspected before levels dropped off were
incorrectly preferring Theora over more modern codecs like VP9.

Meaning, once Theora support is gone, video playback continues to
work for all sites you inspected because media source selection
found something else playable?


Correct, if Theora support was missing users would have a higher 
quality experience due to a more modern codec being selected.



- It's never been supported by Safari or Chrome on Android.
- An ogv.js polyfill exists for the sites that still need Theora
support.
- We are not removing support for ogg containers.

Our plan is to begin escalating experiments turning down Theora
support in M120. During this time users can reactivate Theora
support via chrome://flags/#theora-video-codec if needed.

The tentative timeline for this is (assuming everything goes
smoothly):
- ~Oct 23, 2023: begin 50/50 canary dev experiments.
- ~Nov 1-6, 2023: begin 50/50 beta experiments.
- ~Dec 6, 2023: begin 1% stable experiments.

Even though UKM appears to be exceedingly low, if you're not 100%
confident this will be a no-op, you might consider beginning the
stable experiment after the new year (and many production freezes).


I did consider this and ran this plan by Finch team ahead of time, 
however given the low usage, long dev/beta experiments, that these 
sites would already be broken on Android/Safari, and that we'd still 
have time to turn down the 1% stable experiment before Finch freeze, 
leaving at 1% until after holiday freezes should be safe.


OK, that sounds reasonable. Can you also request the rest of the review 
bits in the chromestatus entry?


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[blink-dev] Re: Intent to Ship: Deprecate and remove Theora support.

2023-10-23 Thread Yuhong Bao 

I am asking the WMF to add MP4:
https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T329258
On Monday, October 23, 2023 at 8:53:14 AM UTC-7 Dale Curtis wrote:

> Contact emailsdalec...@chromium.org
>
> ExplainerNone
>
> Specificationhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theora
>
> Summary
>
> Chrome will deprecate and remove support for the Theora video codec in 
> desktop Chrome due to emerging security risks. Theora's low (and now often 
> incorrect) usage no longer justifies support for most users. Notes: - Zero 
> day attacks against media codecs have spiked. - Usage has fallen below 
> measurable levels in UKM. - The sites we manually inspected before levels 
> dropped off were incorrectly preferring Theora over more modern codecs like 
> VP9. - It's never been supported by Safari or Chrome on Android. - An 
> ogv.js polyfill exists for the sites that still need Theora support. - We 
> are not removing support for ogg containers. Our plan is to begin 
> escalating experiments turning down Theora support in M120. During this 
> time users can reactivate Theora support via 
> chrome://flags/#theora-video-codec if needed. The tentative timeline for 
> this is (assuming everything goes smoothly): - ~Oct 23, 2023: begin 50/50 
> canary dev experiments. - ~Nov 1-6, 2023: begin 50/50 beta experiments. - 
> ~Dec 6, 2023: begin 1% stable experiments. - ~Jan 8, 2024: begin 50% stable 
> experiments. - ~Jan 16th, 2024: launch at 100%. - ~Feb 2024: remove code 
> and chrome://flag in M123. - ~Mar 2024: Chrome 123 will roll to stable.
>
>
> Blink componentInternals>Media>Codecs 
> 
>
> Search tagstheora , vp3 
> , video 
> 
>
> TAG reviewNone
>
> TAG review statusNot applicable
>
> Risks
>
>
> Interoperability and Compatibility
>
> Sites which only provide a Theora video source will no longer have video 
> playback. These sites would already be broken in Chrome for Android or 
> Safari.
>
>
> *Gecko*: Under consideration Private discussions. I asked if they'd like 
> an RFP for this, but haven't yet heard back.
>
> *WebKit*: Shipped/Shipping (https://caniuse.com/ogv) Safari never shipped 
> support for Theora.
>
> *Web developers*: Mixed signals Most developers are not likely to have an 
> opinion, some may lament the loss of one of the first open codecs on the 
> web.
>
> *Other signals*:
>
> Security
>
> Security positive change -- removes support for a complicated binary 
> parsing and decoding mechanism.
>
>
> WebView application risks
>
> Does this intent deprecate or change behavior of existing APIs, such that 
> it has potentially high risk for Android WebView-based applications?
>
> None, never supported on Android or WebView.
>
>
> Debuggability
>
> Can be debugged through media dev tools or chrome://media-internals.
>
>
> Will this feature be supported on all six Blink platforms (Windows, Mac, 
> Linux, Chrome OS, Android, and Android WebView)?Yes
>
> Not currently supported on Chrome for Android.
>
>
> Is this feature fully tested by web-platform-tests 
> 
> ?Yes
>
> As part of pre-work, I've switched all tests using Theora (of which there 
> were hundreds) over to using VP8/VP9 where appropriate.
>
>
> Flag name on chrome://flagsTheoraVideoCodec
>
> Finch feature nameTheoraVideoCodec
>
> Requires code in //chrome?False
>
> Tracking bughttps://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=1489034
>
> Estimated milestones
> DevTrial on desktop 120
>
> Anticipated spec changes
>
> Open questions about a feature may be a source of future web compat or 
> interop issues. Please list open issues (e.g. links to known github issues 
> in the project for the feature specification) whose resolution may 
> introduce web compat/interop risk (e.g., changing to naming or structure of 
> the API in a non-backward-compatible way).
> None
>
> Link to entry on the Chrome Platform Status
> https://chromestatus.com/feature/5158654475239424
>
> This intent message was generated by Chrome Platform Status 
> .
>

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Re: [blink-dev] Re: Intent to Ship: Deprecate and remove Theora support.

2023-10-23 Thread Dale Curtis 
On Mon, Oct 23, 2023 at 10:02 AM Mike Taylor  wrote:

> On 10/23/23 11:54 AM, Dale Curtis wrote:
>
> Hmm, not sure why the description got reflowed, here's the formatted
> version:
>
> Chrome will deprecate and remove support for the Theora video codec in
> desktop Chrome due to emerging security risks. Theora's low (and now often
> incorrect) usage no longer justifies support for most users.
>
> Notes:
> - Zero day attacks against media codecs have spiked.
> - Usage has fallen below measurable levels in UKM.
> - The sites we manually inspected before levels dropped off were
> incorrectly preferring Theora over more modern codecs like VP9.
>
> Meaning, once Theora support is gone, video playback continues to work for
> all sites you inspected because media source selection found something else
> playable?
>

Correct, if Theora support was missing users would have a higher quality
experience due to a more modern codec being selected.


> - It's never been supported by Safari or Chrome on Android.
> - An ogv.js polyfill exists for the sites that still need Theora support.
> - We are not removing support for ogg containers.
>
> Our plan is to begin escalating experiments turning down Theora support in
> M120. During this time users can reactivate Theora support via
> chrome://flags/#theora-video-codec if needed.
>
> The tentative timeline for this is (assuming everything goes smoothly):
> - ~Oct 23, 2023: begin 50/50 canary dev experiments.
> - ~Nov 1-6, 2023: begin 50/50 beta experiments.
> - ~Dec 6, 2023: begin 1% stable experiments.
>
> Even though UKM appears to be exceedingly low, if you're not 100%
> confident this will be a no-op, you might consider beginning the stable
> experiment after the new year (and many production freezes).
>

I did consider this and ran this plan by Finch team ahead of time, however
given the low usage, long dev/beta experiments, that these sites would
already be broken on Android/Safari, and that we'd still have time to turn
down the 1% stable experiment before Finch freeze, leaving at 1% until
after holiday freezes should be safe.


> - ~Jan 8, 2024: begin 50% stable experiments.
> - ~Jan 16th, 2024: launch at 100%.
> - ~Feb 2024: remove code and chrome://flag in M123.
> - ~Mar 2024: Chrome 123 will roll to stable.
>
> - dale
>
> On Mon, Oct 23, 2023 at 8:52 AM Dale Curtis 
> wrote:
>
>> Contact emails dalecur...@chromium.org
>>
>> Explainer None
>>
>> Specification https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theora
>>
>> Summary
>>
>> Chrome will deprecate and remove support for the Theora video codec in
>> desktop Chrome due to emerging security risks. Theora's low (and now often
>> incorrect) usage no longer justifies support for most users. Notes: - Zero
>> day attacks against media codecs have spiked. - Usage has fallen below
>> measurable levels in UKM. - The sites we manually inspected before levels
>> dropped off were incorrectly preferring Theora over more modern codecs like
>> VP9. - It's never been supported by Safari or Chrome on Android. - An
>> ogv.js polyfill exists for the sites that still need Theora support. - We
>> are not removing support for ogg containers. Our plan is to begin
>> escalating experiments turning down Theora support in M120. During this
>> time users can reactivate Theora support via
>> chrome://flags/#theora-video-codec if needed. The tentative timeline for
>> this is (assuming everything goes smoothly): - ~Oct 23, 2023: begin 50/50
>> canary dev experiments. - ~Nov 1-6, 2023: begin 50/50 beta experiments. -
>> ~Dec 6, 2023: begin 1% stable experiments. - ~Jan 8, 2024: begin 50% stable
>> experiments. - ~Jan 16th, 2024: launch at 100%. - ~Feb 2024: remove code
>> and chrome://flag in M123. - ~Mar 2024: Chrome 123 will roll to stable.
>>
>>
>> Blink component Internals>Media>Codecs
>> 
>>
>> Search tags theora , vp3
>> , video
>> 
>>
>> TAG review None
>>
>> TAG review status Not applicable
>>
>> Risks
>>
>>
>> Interoperability and Compatibility
>>
>> Sites which only provide a Theora video source will no longer have video
>> playback. These sites would already be broken in Chrome for Android or
>> Safari.
>>
>>
>> *Gecko*: Under consideration Private discussions. I asked if they'd like
>> an RFP for this, but haven't yet heard back.
>>
>> *WebKit*: Shipped/Shipping (https://caniuse.com/ogv) Safari never
>> shipped support for Theora.
>>
>> *Web developers*: Mixed signals Most developers are not likely to have
>> an opinion, some may lament the loss of one of the first open codecs on the
>> web.
>>
>> *Other signals*:
>>
>> Security
>>
>> Security positive change -- removes support for a complicated binary
>> parsing and decoding mechanism.
>>
>>
>> WebView application risks
>>
>> Does this intent deprecate or change behavior of

Re: [blink-dev] Re: Intent to Ship: Deprecate and remove Theora support.

2023-10-23 Thread Mike Taylor 

On 10/23/23 11:54 AM, Dale Curtis wrote:

Hmm, not sure why the description got reflowed, here's the formatted 
version:


Chrome will deprecate and remove support for the Theora video codec in 
desktop Chrome due to emerging security risks. Theora's low (and now 
often incorrect) usage no longer justifies support for most users.


Notes:
- Zero day attacks against media codecs have spiked.
- Usage has fallen below measurable levels in UKM.
- The sites we manually inspected before levels dropped off were 
incorrectly preferring Theora over more modern codecs like VP9.
Meaning, once Theora support is gone, video playback continues to work 
for all sites you inspected because media source selection found 
something else playable?

- It's never been supported by Safari or Chrome on Android.
- An ogv.js polyfill exists for the sites that still need Theora support.
- We are not removing support for ogg containers.

Our plan is to begin escalating experiments turning down Theora 
support in M120. During this time users can reactivate Theora support 
via chrome://flags/#theora-video-codec if needed.


The tentative timeline for this is (assuming everything goes smoothly):
- ~Oct 23, 2023: begin 50/50 canary dev experiments.
- ~Nov 1-6, 2023: begin 50/50 beta experiments.
- ~Dec 6, 2023: begin 1% stable experiments.
Even though UKM appears to be exceedingly low, if you're not 100% 
confident this will be a no-op, you might consider beginning the stable 
experiment after the new year (and many production freezes).

- ~Jan 8, 2024: begin 50% stable experiments.
- ~Jan 16th, 2024: launch at 100%.
- ~Feb 2024: remove code and chrome://flag in M123.
- ~Mar 2024: Chrome 123 will roll to stable.

- dale

On Mon, Oct 23, 2023 at 8:52 AM Dale Curtis  
wrote:



Contact emails

dalecur...@chromium.org


Explainer

None


Specification

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theora


Summary

Chrome will deprecate and remove support for the Theora video
codec in desktop Chrome due to emerging security risks. Theora's
low (and now often incorrect) usage no longer justifies support
for most users. Notes: - Zero day attacks against media codecs
have spiked. - Usage has fallen below measurable levels in UKM. -
The sites we manually inspected before levels dropped off were
incorrectly preferring Theora over more modern codecs like VP9. -
It's never been supported by Safari or Chrome on Android. - An
ogv.js polyfill exists for the sites that still need Theora
support. - We are not removing support for ogg containers. Our
plan is to begin escalating experiments turning down Theora
support in M120. During this time users can reactivate Theora
support via chrome://flags/#theora-video-codec if needed. The
tentative timeline for this is (assuming everything goes
smoothly): - ~Oct 23, 2023: begin 50/50 canary dev experiments. -
~Nov 1-6, 2023: begin 50/50 beta experiments. - ~Dec 6, 2023:
begin 1% stable experiments. - ~Jan 8, 2024: begin 50% stable
experiments. - ~Jan 16th, 2024: launch at 100%. - ~Feb 2024:
remove code and chrome://flag in M123. - ~Mar 2024: Chrome 123
will roll to stable.



Blink component

Internals>Media>Codecs




Search tags

theora , vp3
, video



TAG review

None


TAG review status

Not applicable


Risks



Interoperability and Compatibility

Sites which only provide a Theora video source will no longer have
video playback. These sites would already be broken in Chrome for
Android or Safari.



/Gecko/: Under consideration Private discussions. I asked if
they'd like an RFP for this, but haven't yet heard back.

/WebKit/: Shipped/Shipping (https://caniuse.com/ogv) Safari never
shipped support for Theora.

/Web developers/: Mixed signals Most developers are not likely to
have an opinion, some may lament the loss of one of the first open
codecs on the web.

/Other signals/:


Security

Security positive change -- removes support for a complicated
binary parsing and decoding mechanism.



WebView application risks

Does this intent deprecate or change behavior of existing APIs,
such that it has potentially high risk for Android WebView-based
applications?

None, never supported on Android or WebView.



Debuggability

Can be debugged through media dev tools or chrome://media-internals.



Will this feature be supported on all six Blink platforms
(Windows, Mac, Linux, Chrome OS, Android, and Android
WebView)?

Yes

[blink-dev] Re: Intent to Ship: Deprecate and remove Theora support.

2023-10-23 Thread Dale Curtis 
On Mon, Oct 23, 2023 at 8:54 AM Dale Curtis  wrote:

> Hmm, not sure why the description got reflowed, here's the formatted
> version:
>
> Chrome will deprecate and remove support for the Theora video codec in
> desktop Chrome due to emerging security risks. Theora's low (and now often
> incorrect) usage no longer justifies support for most users.
>
> Notes:
> - Zero day attacks against media codecs have spiked.
> - Usage has fallen below measurable levels in UKM.
> - The sites we manually inspected before levels dropped off were
> incorrectly preferring Theora over more modern codecs like VP9.
> - It's never been supported by Safari or Chrome on Android.
> - An ogv.js polyfill exists for the sites that still need Theora support.
> - We are not removing support for ogg containers.
>
> Our plan is to begin escalating experiments turning down Theora support in
> M120. During this time users can reactivate Theora support via
> chrome://flags/#theora-video-codec if needed.
>
> The tentative timeline for this is (assuming everything goes smoothly):
> - ~Oct 23, 2023: begin 50/50 canary dev experiments.
> - ~Nov 1-6, 2023: begin 50/50 beta experiments.
> - ~Dec 6, 2023: begin 1% stable experiments.
> - ~Jan 8, 2024: begin 50% stable experiments.
> - ~Jan 16th, 2024: launch at 100%.
> - ~Feb 2024: remove code and chrome://flag in M123.
> - ~Mar 2024: Chrome 123 will roll to stable.
>
> - dale
>
> On Mon, Oct 23, 2023 at 8:52 AM Dale Curtis 
> wrote:
>
>> Contact emailsdalecur...@chromium.org
>>
>> ExplainerNone
>>
>> Specificationhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theora
>>
>> Summary
>>
>> Chrome will deprecate and remove support for the Theora video codec in
>> desktop Chrome due to emerging security risks. Theora's low (and now often
>> incorrect) usage no longer justifies support for most users. Notes: - Zero
>> day attacks against media codecs have spiked. - Usage has fallen below
>> measurable levels in UKM. - The sites we manually inspected before levels
>> dropped off were incorrectly preferring Theora over more modern codecs like
>> VP9. - It's never been supported by Safari or Chrome on Android. - An
>> ogv.js polyfill exists for the sites that still need Theora support. - We
>> are not removing support for ogg containers. Our plan is to begin
>> escalating experiments turning down Theora support in M120. During this
>> time users can reactivate Theora support via
>> chrome://flags/#theora-video-codec if needed. The tentative timeline for
>> this is (assuming everything goes smoothly): - ~Oct 23, 2023: begin 50/50
>> canary dev experiments. - ~Nov 1-6, 2023: begin 50/50 beta experiments. -
>> ~Dec 6, 2023: begin 1% stable experiments. - ~Jan 8, 2024: begin 50% stable
>> experiments. - ~Jan 16th, 2024: launch at 100%. - ~Feb 2024: remove code
>> and chrome://flag in M123. - ~Mar 2024: Chrome 123 will roll to stable.
>>
>>
>> Blink componentInternals>Media>Codecs
>> 
>>
>> Search tagstheora , vp3
>> , video
>> 
>>
>> TAG reviewNone
>>
>> TAG review statusNot applicable
>>
>> Risks
>>
>>
>> Interoperability and Compatibility
>>
>> Sites which only provide a Theora video source will no longer have video
>> playback. These sites would already be broken in Chrome for Android or
>> Safari.
>>
>>
>> *Gecko*: Under consideration Private discussions. I asked if they'd like
>> an RFP for this, but haven't yet heard back.
>>
>
This is now tracked by:
https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1860492


>
>> *WebKit*: Shipped/Shipping (https://caniuse.com/ogv) Safari never
>> shipped support for Theora.
>>
>> *Web developers*: Mixed signals Most developers are not likely to have
>> an opinion, some may lament the loss of one of the first open codecs on the
>> web.
>>
>> *Other signals*:
>>
>> Security
>>
>> Security positive change -- removes support for a complicated binary
>> parsing and decoding mechanism.
>>
>>
>> WebView application risks
>>
>> Does this intent deprecate or change behavior of existing APIs, such that
>> it has potentially high risk for Android WebView-based applications?
>>
>> None, never supported on Android or WebView.
>>
>>
>> Debuggability
>>
>> Can be debugged through media dev tools or chrome://media-internals.
>>
>>
>> Will this feature be supported on all six Blink platforms (Windows, Mac,
>> Linux, Chrome OS, Android, and Android WebView)?Yes
>>
>> Not currently supported on Chrome for Android.
>>
>>
>> Is this feature fully tested by web-platform-tests
>> 
>> ?Yes
>>
>> As part of pre-work, I've switched all tests using Theora (of which there
>> were hundreds) over to using VP8/VP9 where appropriate.
>>
>>
>> Flag name on chrome://flagsTheoraVideoCodec
>>
>> Finch feature

[blink-dev] Re: Intent to Ship: Deprecate and remove Theora support.

2023-10-23 Thread Dale Curtis 
Hmm, not sure why the description got reflowed, here's the formatted
version:

Chrome will deprecate and remove support for the Theora video codec in
desktop Chrome due to emerging security risks. Theora's low (and now often
incorrect) usage no longer justifies support for most users.

Notes:
- Zero day attacks against media codecs have spiked.
- Usage has fallen below measurable levels in UKM.
- The sites we manually inspected before levels dropped off were
incorrectly preferring Theora over more modern codecs like VP9.
- It's never been supported by Safari or Chrome on Android.
- An ogv.js polyfill exists for the sites that still need Theora support.
- We are not removing support for ogg containers.

Our plan is to begin escalating experiments turning down Theora support in
M120. During this time users can reactivate Theora support via
chrome://flags/#theora-video-codec if needed.

The tentative timeline for this is (assuming everything goes smoothly):
- ~Oct 23, 2023: begin 50/50 canary dev experiments.
- ~Nov 1-6, 2023: begin 50/50 beta experiments.
- ~Dec 6, 2023: begin 1% stable experiments.
- ~Jan 8, 2024: begin 50% stable experiments.
- ~Jan 16th, 2024: launch at 100%.
- ~Feb 2024: remove code and chrome://flag in M123.
- ~Mar 2024: Chrome 123 will roll to stable.

- dale

On Mon, Oct 23, 2023 at 8:52 AM Dale Curtis  wrote:

> Contact emailsdalecur...@chromium.org
>
> ExplainerNone
>
> Specificationhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theora
>
> Summary
>
> Chrome will deprecate and remove support for the Theora video codec in
> desktop Chrome due to emerging security risks. Theora's low (and now often
> incorrect) usage no longer justifies support for most users. Notes: - Zero
> day attacks against media codecs have spiked. - Usage has fallen below
> measurable levels in UKM. - The sites we manually inspected before levels
> dropped off were incorrectly preferring Theora over more modern codecs like
> VP9. - It's never been supported by Safari or Chrome on Android. - An
> ogv.js polyfill exists for the sites that still need Theora support. - We
> are not removing support for ogg containers. Our plan is to begin
> escalating experiments turning down Theora support in M120. During this
> time users can reactivate Theora support via
> chrome://flags/#theora-video-codec if needed. The tentative timeline for
> this is (assuming everything goes smoothly): - ~Oct 23, 2023: begin 50/50
> canary dev experiments. - ~Nov 1-6, 2023: begin 50/50 beta experiments. -
> ~Dec 6, 2023: begin 1% stable experiments. - ~Jan 8, 2024: begin 50% stable
> experiments. - ~Jan 16th, 2024: launch at 100%. - ~Feb 2024: remove code
> and chrome://flag in M123. - ~Mar 2024: Chrome 123 will roll to stable.
>
>
> Blink componentInternals>Media>Codecs
> 
>
> Search tagstheora , vp3
> , video
> 
>
> TAG reviewNone
>
> TAG review statusNot applicable
>
> Risks
>
>
> Interoperability and Compatibility
>
> Sites which only provide a Theora video source will no longer have video
> playback. These sites would already be broken in Chrome for Android or
> Safari.
>
>
> *Gecko*: Under consideration Private discussions. I asked if they'd like
> an RFP for this, but haven't yet heard back.
>
> *WebKit*: Shipped/Shipping (https://caniuse.com/ogv) Safari never shipped
> support for Theora.
>
> *Web developers*: Mixed signals Most developers are not likely to have an
> opinion, some may lament the loss of one of the first open codecs on the
> web.
>
> *Other signals*:
>
> Security
>
> Security positive change -- removes support for a complicated binary
> parsing and decoding mechanism.
>
>
> WebView application risks
>
> Does this intent deprecate or change behavior of existing APIs, such that
> it has potentially high risk for Android WebView-based applications?
>
> None, never supported on Android or WebView.
>
>
> Debuggability
>
> Can be debugged through media dev tools or chrome://media-internals.
>
>
> Will this feature be supported on all six Blink platforms (Windows, Mac,
> Linux, Chrome OS, Android, and Android WebView)?Yes
>
> Not currently supported on Chrome for Android.
>
>
> Is this feature fully tested by web-platform-tests
> 
> ?Yes
>
> As part of pre-work, I've switched all tests using Theora (of which there
> were hundreds) over to using VP8/VP9 where appropriate.
>
>
> Flag name on chrome://flagsTheoraVideoCodec
>
> Finch feature nameTheoraVideoCodec
>
> Requires code in //chrome?False
>
> Tracking bughttps://bugs.chromium.org/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=1489034
>
> Estimated milestones
> DevTrial on desktop 120
>
> Anticipated spec changes
>
> Open questions about a feature may be a source of future web compat or
>