Re: Sonar GNU/Linux merges with Vinux
#+OPTIONS: latex:t toc:nil H:3 *message I still say that arch is the best for accessibility, as we get all the current stuff, and the AUR, Arch user repository, is absolutely wonderful, even having programs like OcrDesktop, which I’ve not found any distros like Fedora. I think, though, that there should be maybe two distros for the blind: one for absolute newbies, and another for more experienced users who want to get up and going, but still have the power to progress in learning. Sonar filled that second goal well: It had accessibility, desktops built-in, and ran on n Arch derivative. The reason it failed is because the distro under it, Manjaro, fell into disarray, bringing Sonar down with it. That’s just my $0.02￠, and I’ll be happy to stay with arch Linux, Emacs, Emacspeak, and Voxin for my usage because my gosh, that’s what works for me. Sure, if Emacspeak’s eSpeak support becomes better, I’ll definitely go with it, as it has more languages and is being updated, but besides all that, Debian is too outdated, Fedora doesn’t have the packages I want, Sonar is dead, so yeah. Arch is my /only/ real option, and it took plenty of time getting it to work. If I didn’t have the kind folken on the IRC network, I would still be running Fedora, or even just trudging down a road full of Windows emptiness. -- Sent from Discordia using Gnus for Emacs. Email: r.d.t.pra...@gmail.com Long days and pleasant nights! Tony Baechler writes: > Sorry for the late reply, but see comments below. > > On 3/16/2017 3:36 PM, Joel Roth wrote: >> Eric Oyen wrote: >> >>> ...we, as a community, don't have an actual unified distro >>> to call our own. Sure, Vinux is a decent distro, but it's >>> lacking a lot of useful features outside of accessibility. > > OK, but why do we, as a community, need a special distro? Yes, it's > free software, so there is certainly nothing stopping you as long as > you realize it's your pet distro along with the about 300 others on > distrowatch.com. I would much rather have a popular, mainstream distro > which includes great accessibility like Debian and derivatives. > >> >> I'm not sure how things are at present, but in the past, >> Debian has shown some commitment to supporting >> accessibility[1], including at the installer level[2]. > > Yes, Debian still supports accessibility. Every alpha release of D-I > has accessibility features and fixes. > >> >> This is not the same as a special-purpose distribution, and >> I think the pages were written some time ago. Still I would >> think that some effort would be worthwhile, and would >> benefit all Debian derivatives, which could include >> a accessbility-centric distribution. >> >> 1. https://wiki.debian.org/accessibility >> 2. https://wiki.debian.org/accessibility#Debian_installer_accessibility > > These pages should be fairly current and are often updated by Debian > developers like Samuel Thibault. > > ___ > Blinux-list mailing list > Blinux-list@redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Re: Accessible Login With Orca
-- Sent from Discordia using Gnus for Emacs. Email: r.d.t.pra...@gmail.com Long days and pleasant nights! ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Re: Accessible Login With Orca
I just set my user to auto-login. I know, not a direct answer, but it's what I did and it worked. Starting from the console, then, would be your best bet for security. -- Sent from Discordia using Gnus for Emacs. Email: r.d.t.pra...@gmail.com Long days and pleasant nights! seth hurst writes: ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Reading braille books in Linux console
Hi all. I have a braille display, and want to read downloaded BRF files in Linux, on my computer. Since Orca doesn't have word wrap support, and BRLTTY is my only other option, do any of you know how I can read my books in the console? ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Re: Sonar GNU/Linux merges with Vinux
My biggest problem with Fedora is the lack of packages. Coming from Arch, and the AUR, I'm used to having *all* of the Audacious plugins, including crystalizer and such, but Fedora only came with a few of them. Also, for packages like Emacspeak, you have to build the dependencies, DND builddep, for Emacspeak to even install, which I don't understand why. builddep wasn't needed on other packages, but it is with Emacspeak. Also, Boxing does not work with Fedora, and eSpeak-ng is... broken or only pulls down espeak or something. So, as I've said in IRC, I really recommend either Debian or Arch to work with. Arch, already having Fenrir, OcrDesktop, Emacspeak-git, Boxing support, all that, would be a fine place to start. I know, Fedora is that middle ground between cutting-edge and yearly update cycles, but really, it all depends on how much work we, the community, want to do. Getting Boxing working may even be impossible on Fedora, I don't know, but that would put any Emacspeak user off right then, or any user who is impatient for eSpeak to gain a *lot* more privity and a more natural way of speaking, *not* a natural voice. But, there are always other distros we can base ourselves off of, Fedora isn't the only alternative. I just think Arch would be a far better way to go, it's definitely be easier to start. I know Orca is developed on Fedora, and that might add a perceived wow factor, or a closeness with the developer, but again, Arch has the orca-git aur package, and their is, as some one said earlier, only one developer working on Orca. The first big problem with Fedora is Braille. Brltty comes with the use of the API commented, so that new users will have to know how to work with config files, and how to uncomment things, just to get Braille with Orca. As a Braille display user myself, it was pretty disheartening. Then, when I did get Braille working, I found that reading with it wasn't so fun after all. If I didn't press a key for a while, a key on the keyboard of the laptop that is, the screen would lock, and my reading material would be replaced by the lock screen. So now, I have my books and such on the display for reading in the word processor. A more serious issue with the Braille display is copying things to it. The Various Ultra has internal storage. When I want to copy something directly to it, it says that it cannot. But there's a side-effect, everything on the storage media is deleted for some reason. So, I'll have to just use a flash drive as an intermediary between them. Yes, Linux has that effect on people after a while, you learn to just accept the flaws and deal with it, as you had to with Windows, because there's so little support, so little time, so little care. Especially with Braille, those who don't use it don't seem to care much, and those who use it can't do much to change things. At least, I can't, as I don't know a programming language. Now for the most serious problem, Orca, for me, doesn't talk at the log in screen. It may just be from me uninstalling and reinstalling Orca and eSpeak so many times, and I may install another distro because of all this Discord, all these problems, but for now, I have to listen for the little pops of Pulse audio/alsa doing their thing to know when to press enter, type my password, press enter again. But I didn't wipe Windows from my machine just to run back to it, I will soldier on through this bleak landscape, because I see so much potential if we manage to do all this. Linux has the ability to grow, to get better, by our direct actions, not just emailing accessibil...@apple.com and hoping that, besides the automated response, something will happen. I am, though, a rather sindical person. I don't expect Orca to have amazing Braille support, with formatting information shown by way of Liblouis, Audacious plugins being all there, Boxing working or Emacspeak folks waking up to the possibility that if they focused a little on helping with eSpeak, it may progress more than just bandaging bad pronunciación a. I'm not saying this or that project isn't getting anywhere, sure it is, but we need more help than what we have, a sighted Orca developer who knows not much about Braille, and a community of devs who probably don't even know we're considering their distro to be a base for ours. But, I'll sit back and wait and see what comes of all this, helping out where I can with documentation or user support, all that. I'm training to be an ATI, assistive technology instructor, so if y'all want what I can offer, as I've said in IRC where sometimes my voice is drown out by noise, then I'm here. On March 16, 2017 6:37:05 PM Joel Roth wrote: Eric Oyen wrote: ...we, as a community, don't have an actual unified distro to call our own. Sure, Vinux is a decent distro, but it's lacking a lot of useful features outside of accessibility. I, myself, use Ubuntu primarily because of the larger software rep
Re: spammer on list
Thanks, Kyle. Perhaps you should add:: Sent from my arm to your random sent from signatures. :) On 11/13/2016 8:37 AM, Kyle wrote: Thunderbird does show headers. Press control+u from inside of the message and you will see the entire source of the message, including all headers, completely accessible to Orca. Sent from a song of the heart ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Re: spammer on list
Thanks for this. I'm glad a GUI client has such power too. On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 3:28 AM Henry Yen wrote: > It works on any platform, including linux. > > In the "View" menu dropdown, change "Headers-Normal" to "Headers-All". > > Alternatively, in the "View" menu dropdown, select "Message Source" > (usually > there is a shortcut, CTRL-U, that also will do that). The entire message, > including all headers, will come up in a new window. > > On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 04:49:23AM +, Devin Prater wrote: > > Oh wow, how do I do it on Windows? Thanks a lot for this. I love seeing > > that kind of information. > > On Sat, Nov 12, 2016 at 10:46 PM The Wolf > wrote: > > > thunderbird can display headers how ever am not sure how to do this on > > > linux but it does work in windows > > > > > > On 11/12/2016 9:44 PM, Amanda Lacy wrote: > > > > someone needs to send her an attachment. > > > > > > > > On 11/12/16, Devin Prater wrote: > > > >> Yep, it's just a signature. The way to really see what a user is > from is > > > >> through the headers, although I've only found one mail client that > can > > > do > > > >> that, I think it was Mutt or edbrowse, can't remember, but it was > only > > > one > > > >> that I've found. I sure wish Thunderbird did that. > > -- > Henry Yen Aegis Information Systems, > Inc. > Senior Systems Programmer Hicksville, New York > > ___ > Blinux-list mailing list > Blinux-list@redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Re: spammer on list
Oh wow, how do I do it on Windows? Thanks a lot for this. I love seeing that kind of information. On Sat, Nov 12, 2016 at 10:46 PM The Wolf wrote: > thunderbird can display headers how ever am not sure how to do this on > linux but it does work in windows > > thanks > > Hank > > > > On 11/12/2016 9:44 PM, Amanda Lacy wrote: > > someone needs to send her an attachment. > > > > On 11/12/16, Devin Prater wrote: > >> Yep, it's just a signature. The way to really see what a user is from is > >> through the headers, although I've only found one mail client that can > do > >> that, I think it was Mutt or edbrowse, can't remember, but it was only > one > >> that I've found. I sure wish Thunderbird did that. > >> > >> On Sat, Nov 12, 2016 at 9:55 PM Kyle wrote: > >> > >>> Watch this. The iPhone signature means nothing at all, as anyone can > say > >>> it. And if you don't think that an iPhone can be part of a botnet, > >>> that's about the only thing it *can* do. > >>> Sent from my iPhone > >>> > >>> ___ > >>> Blinux-list mailing list > >>> Blinux-list@redhat.com > >>> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > >>> > > ___ > > Blinux-list mailing list > > Blinux-list@redhat.com > > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > > ___ > Blinux-list mailing list > Blinux-list@redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Re: spammer on list
Yep, it's just a signature. The way to really see what a user is from is through the headers, although I've only found one mail client that can do that, I think it was Mutt or edbrowse, can't remember, but it was only one that I've found. I sure wish Thunderbird did that. On Sat, Nov 12, 2016 at 9:55 PM Kyle wrote: > Watch this. The iPhone signature means nothing at all, as anyone can say > it. And if you don't think that an iPhone can be part of a botnet, > that's about the only thing it *can* do. > Sent from my iPhone > > ___ > Blinux-list mailing list > Blinux-list@redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Re: Orca & tbird issues
I use Thunderbird most of the time, but use Gmail online when I want to have simple access with emails groups into threads. Devin Pratersent from Gmail. On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 7:14 PM, Tim Chase wrote: > On November 9, 2016, Jeffery Mewtamer wrote: > > Personally, I've never seen the point of e-mail clients and have > > always used a web browser to check my e-mail. > > I think the big advantage is off-line usage. If you are connected > all the time and have dual-mode access for redundancy (say, a home > internet/wifi connection, and a 4G aircard), and don't roam much, > then a web-based mail client solves a lot of problems. But when > internet access is spotty or unreliable, it's nice to have full > access to your email offline. Fortunately, there are lots of > options, both within the GUI with varying degrees of accessibility > (Thunderbird, Kmail, Claws Mail, and Evolution come to mind) and > within the terminal (mutt and alpine being the dominant players, but > "alot" and mailx/heirloom mailx also come to mind as well as several > available within emacs). > > -tim > > > ___ > Blinux-list mailing list > Blinux-list@redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Re: Fwd: Re: A new tts on Linux
as far as I know, Speechd-el hasn't been updated in years. I've used Speechd-el, and it reminds me more of Narrator as compared to NVDA, being Emacspeak. Sure it might could be made to act more like Emacspeak, but users generally don't want to spend that much time adding sound icons, setting them to trigger on certain events, all that. On 11/4/2016 7:35 AM, Fernando Botelho wrote: Thanks very much for this suggestion Raphaë. Best regards, Fernando On 11/04/2016 07:38 AM, Raphaël POITEVIN wrote: Dear Fernando, Message transféré Sujet : Re: A new tts on Linux Date : Thu, 3 Nov 2016 14:38:04 -0200 De : Fernando Botelho Répondre à : fernando.bote...@f123.org, Linux for blind general discussion Organisation : F123 Pour : Linux for blind general discussion Would your team have the skills to develop a speech server for Emacspeak to use Speech-Dispatcher and eSpeak? I don't know any thing about EmacSpeak. I'm asrtonished that plugin doesn't have already any connection with speech-dispatcher. But, if you don't have any reason to use absolutely Emacspeak, why don't use speechd-el which is more recent and still maintained? https://devel.freebsoft.org/speechd-el Alternatively, would your team be able to create a BASH script that automates the installation and configuration of Emacspeak and eSpeak inside an Arch Linux machine? I don't use Arch, but I can see it exists a package for speechd-el: https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/emacs-speechd-el-git/ Regards, Raphaël ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Re: Internationalizing Screen readers.
Emacspeak controls the synth a lot more aggressively, which in this case is a very good thing. There was some talk a while back about having speech dispatcher handle unicode stuff, but so far only Emacspeak has pushed ahead in this regard, tapping into Emac's list of Unicode characters and their meaning. Since that's open source, I see no reason why all that info couldn't be pulled from Emacs and put into eSpeak or Speech Dispatcher, depending on if people think the synth should do all the work, leaving out all others in the process, or if the speech server should do the work, which would include all synths it supports and would reduce the work load to one system, instead of lots of smaller ones. That's just my idea though. I support all operating systems, and the people that make them better for all people. On 11/3/2016 10:49 PM, Jackie McBride wrote: Jeffery, you don't tell us what synthesizer you're using w/Orca, but the truth is it's the tts engine that really handles the language aspects, as opposed to the screenreader itself. ESpeak, Flite, etc, all have I18N capabilities, I believe, & these are all being used w/Orca. I'm not familiar w/sbl, but here again, if it will work w/a different synthesizer than what you're currently using, give that a try & see if things are better. On 11/3/16, Devin Prater wrote: Emacs, with Emacspeak, can handle most, if not all, Unicode characters, even emoji! On 11/3/2016 9:24 PM, Jeffery Mewtamer wrote: English is the only language I'm fluent in, and among the languages I know more than a few words of, many of those words have been imported into English anyways, but I still come across enough non-Latin text for short comings in internationalization to be annoying. In graphical mode on my desktop, I use Orca(do there even exist graphical screen readers for Linux other than Orca), and it handles non-English Latin text well enough, but for some non-Latin character sets(such as Greek, Hebrew, and Arabic), it can only read character-by-character instead of string characters into words, and for others(such as Chinese and Japanese), it can only identify the character set and then repeat the word "letter" for each character in the string, and then there are some characters Orca can't identify at all and just reads the Unicode code point in Hexadecimal. This can be particularly annoying when reading wiki pages that are heavy on foreign terms that are displayed both in their source language and Romanized. My text-mode screen reader, SBL, has even bigger issues, reading pretty much all non-ASCII characters as "thorn", and can't even handle things such as accented Latin characters or the curly versions of the single and double quotes. If anyone knows anything I could try to improve these, it would be greatly appreciated. If it matters, I'm running a system customized from Knoppix 7.7.1, which is based on Debian. ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Re: Internationalizing Screen readers.
Emacs, with Emacspeak, can handle most, if not all, Unicode characters, even emoji! On 11/3/2016 9:24 PM, Jeffery Mewtamer wrote: English is the only language I'm fluent in, and among the languages I know more than a few words of, many of those words have been imported into English anyways, but I still come across enough non-Latin text for short comings in internationalization to be annoying. In graphical mode on my desktop, I use Orca(do there even exist graphical screen readers for Linux other than Orca), and it handles non-English Latin text well enough, but for some non-Latin character sets(such as Greek, Hebrew, and Arabic), it can only read character-by-character instead of string characters into words, and for others(such as Chinese and Japanese), it can only identify the character set and then repeat the word "letter" for each character in the string, and then there are some characters Orca can't identify at all and just reads the Unicode code point in Hexadecimal. This can be particularly annoying when reading wiki pages that are heavy on foreign terms that are displayed both in their source language and Romanized. My text-mode screen reader, SBL, has even bigger issues, reading pretty much all non-ASCII characters as "thorn", and can't even handle things such as accented Latin characters or the curly versions of the single and double quotes. If anyone knows anything I could try to improve these, it would be greatly appreciated. If it matters, I'm running a system customized from Knoppix 7.7.1, which is based on Debian. ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Re: A new tts on Linux
It sounds a lot like MBROLA. Good, but it's been done before. On 11/3/2016 3:13 PM, MENGUAL Jean-Philippe wrote: Hi, Here are English samples: Rosalind : https://owncloud.hypra.fr/index.php/s/y3F1fkxSzl6bxm9/download Tom : https://owncloud.hypra.fr/index.php/s/lVG0hmXQyJOvGlh9/download They have no settings here, it's "raw". Orca can suit voices according to typical parameters in Preferences, and Kalinux.ini enables to set prosody. To have new languages, let's see 1st how the community sees this product. Given that the tts itself isn't free software, doing this would include to collaborate with university. Possible, but anyway (even if it becomes free software in some years)it has a cost (about 6 euros per language). The technique used is not trivial: recording human voices on some significant text/sounds, then processing to create appropriate algorithms. It's a big work with skills in linguistic and signal processing, but if we have success with Kali, we'll be able to pay for additional languages indeed. Regards, Le 03/11/2016 à 16:51, Anders Holmberg a écrit : Hi! What languages are included? How can we help to bring other languages to that tts? /A On 3 Nov 2016, at 11:32, Alex ARNAUD wrote: Dear M. Peveto, The voices Tom and Rosalind are English voices. Best regards. -- Alex ARNAUD Visual-Impairment Project Manager Hypra - "Humanizing technology" Le 03/11/2016 à 02:49, Mark Peveto a écrit : Does this have english voices? Mark Peveto Registered Linux user number 600552 Everything happens after coffee! On Thu, 3 Nov 2016, MENGUAL Jean-Philippe wrote: Hi, We are proud announcing release of Kali for GNU/Linux. It includes: - three French speaking voices: Patrick, Michel and Guillemette; - two French speaking voices: Tom and Rosalind. Kali is slight, understandable and fast, nearly natura-speaking. You can set usual parameters, and also prosody. With Orca, you can decide to affect a voice according to what you're reading: link, uppercase word, regular word. I tried and felt as if I had a new screen reader! You can test a 45-minutes demonstration release on-demand. If you want to install it forever, xou can buy it for 85 euros. It is the balance between quality, wise cost, for a product manufactured by people who are casy to be contacted for any improvement, although the program is not free. Of course, Hypra provides the product with suitable speech-dispatcher module, which is being shipped upstream as a free program. Any feedback or test request is welcome. Here's samples: Regards -- Jean-Philippe MENGUAL HYPRA, progressons ensemble Tél.: 01 84 73 06 61 Mail: cont...@hypra.fr Site Web: http://hypra.fr ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Re: Emacspeak and eSpeak
For now, eSpeak cannot use the voice-lock features of Emacspeak. That's my main problem with it's maintenance now, and that I can't change the voice to the En-us language. Devin Pratersent from Gmail. On Wed, Oct 5, 2016 at 4:06 PM, Fernando Botelho wrote: > Thanks Chris for these details. This is very helpful. > > Fernando > > > ___ > Blinux-list mailing list > Blinux-list@redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Re: Emacspeak and eSpeak
Espeak support is "unmaintained", so it could break with any new release of eSpeak that may come along. There is an Eflite server, if you can get it working, that links flite with Emacspeak. Sent from my iPhone On Oct 4, 2016, at 8:07 PM, Sam Hartman wrote: >> "Fernando" == Fernando Botelho writes: > >Fernando> Does anybody think using eSpeak instead of Festival is a >Fernando> bad idea? > > The emacspeak espeak support is depressingly fiddly to get working, but > it is well worth doing. > > ___ > Blinux-list mailing list > Blinux-list@redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Re: How did people here learn GUIs
Well, now that bash is everywhere, perhaps we'll see a console comeback, at least for the blind. I could see great email clients and web browsers come out of this. But then again, it may just be a sort of forgotten thing, on the fringes of knowledge, like the windows command-line is for most users. Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 24, 2016, at 5:22 PM, Christopher Chaltain wrote: > > Well, I need to still look into this more myself, so I don't have all the > answers yet like those of you who have explored this more already, but I'm > not sure why this has to be a half baked solution. Also, even though > developers have been dealing with cross platform development for a while > doesn't mean it can't be improved or that this won't open up some more > opportunities for developers to quickly make some applications available on > multiple platforms. I'm also thinking of the cloud where developers might > want to manage multiple operating systems, like Windows and Ubuntu running in > clouds such as Azure or AWS. Providing the ability to quickly build a > framework based on tools common to both Windows and Ubuntu seems like it > would be a good idea in this situation. > > For me, I like seeing new innovative things being done and offered. Let > things like this be made available and see if any bright developers or users > out there want to take advantage of it. If it doesn't work then it doesn't > harm me at all, but if it does then who knows what I'll now have access to. > I'm just glad there are people out there trying new things and not just > listening to the nay sayers who are happy with what they have and think > everyone else should be as well. > >> On 24/07/16 12:27, Kyle wrote: >> I'm not exactly sure why developers would want this either. Windows >> developers already had Visual Studio, which they apparently love, and >> GNU/Linux developers will continue using GNU/Linux, where all the >> development software anyone could dream of is free and open source. >> Developers, more even than regular users, want a complete solution, not >> some half-baked attempt at GNU in a Microsoft environment. They will >> either go for 100% Microsoft in the Windows + Visual Studio, or they >> will develop for GNU/Linux. Cross-platform developers will continue >> doing what they have always done, which means running multiple OS's and >> building for each one individually. I guess maybe people building >> Rockbox who have used GNU/Linux to build it for years will possibly be >> able to fully build it in a Windows environment without Cygwin, but >> what's the point, especially when they've already been using GNU/Linux >> for years to do that? >> Sent from a sign o' the times >> >> ___ >> Blinux-list mailing list >> Blinux-list@redhat.com >> https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list > > -- > Christopher (CJ) > chaltain at Gmail > > ___ > Blinux-list mailing list > Blinux-list@redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Re: How did people here learn GUIs
Yep. No matter how many "enovations" narrator or any other Windows screen reader makes, Linux is swiftly becoming where I go to get things done. My only problem now is that I didn't bring my laptop with me, because it's almost broken anyways, and that Vmware doesn't wanna work on the Mac os Sierra beta. Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 23, 2016, at 4:06 PM, Kyle wrote: > > So some Ubuntu packages will work in Windows now. And in August, from what I > understand, Windows users will be able to run Unity as well. Why on GOd's > green earth is this news? Ubuntu has been available for years, with Bash, > apt-get, Unity and so much more. Is this an admission by Microsoft that > GNU/Linux is the superior operating system, or is it a pure and simple > violation of the GPL? Maybe it's some sort of reverse ploy to woo GNU/Linux > users, or maybe Unix/Linux sysadmins to Windows land, making them subject to > as many viruses and security holes as Windows users have had to deal with for > years. "Look here! We'll give you what you really want! All the same shells > and programs you're used to using, and all the poor attempts at security you > can expect from Windows to go along with it, all for a nominal subscription > fee!" In any case, If I want Ubuntu, I'll use Ubuntu. I certainly won't be > switching away from it to some half-baked try at Ubuntu within the half-baked > Window! s environment. > Sent from my moonbeam levels > > ___ > Blinux-list mailing list > Blinux-list@redhat.com > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list ___ Blinux-list mailing list Blinux-list@redhat.com https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list
Re: How did people here learn GUIs
I, being 22 already, was taught the Windows GUI early on, in around middle school. Everyone used Windows XP back then, and no one used anything else. So it was a shock when I got a laptop and it ran Vista. Everyone used Window-eyes then too, so you can see how secluded I was from even other screen readers. At the school for the blind I attended, back then it was Window-eyes and Zoomtext, and a few high schoolers with fancy braille notes that could be carried everywhere and could talk, without even needing to be plugged into a computer. I learned typing from a teacher that was good at the old tech, but wasn’t prepared for the exponential leaps forward in software and UI design. She taught us to use the basics of Microsoft word, tab around the system, and to let the half-sighted users do the Microsoft Access designer stuff. Later on, I learned a little of the Jaws cursor stuff, but the Windows screen readers have you operate them, more or less, than operating the system itself, and reporting the output. macOS does just about the same thing, with voiceover functions for things like drag and drop, viewing open applications, Windows, and things like that. I’ve recently learned to use Linux, Arch to be exact, with BRLTTY, Speakup in pure console if needed, and Emacspeak, even though the eSpeak driver is severely outdated so that aural-highlighting and such don’t work. I’ve even managed to sign up to the SDF network, so we’ll see where that goes, although the games seem to be just ASCII art. Funny how people seem to need pictures, even in text interfaces. Sent from my Mac. Devin Prater r.d.t.pra...@gmail.com > On Jul 17, 2016, at 5:38 AM, Sam Hartman wrote: > > > > John's comment about learning GUIs and not initially being good with > them was interesting to me. I thought back to my initial experience > with GUI environments, and realized that if it weren't for some really > great work, I would have found GUIs really hard to approach. > > I'm curious, especially among those who do find GUIs easy to use, how > you learned to use them? > > What resources did you use? Are there any that are still available? > > For me, I think the following factors contributed: > > * Reading the Turbo Pascal 5.5 and 6.0 documentation on their text-based > GUI environment. > > * Reading the Desqview developer documentation on Window layout. > > * Reading the discussion of GUI design in the Borland C++ support for > Windows 3.1. > > Some of the above dealt with text-mode GUIs, but all provided good > fundamentals in dialogue boxes, how to do layout, and that sort of > thing. > The documentation was in text for the most part rather than being filled > with too many pictures. The documentation was focused for people > writing GUIs so it had a lot of explanation. > That kind of gave me a good grounding in what to expect. > > But the real breakthrough happened when I had to use a Mac in the early > 1990's--probably around System 7. > There was a screen reader made by the same folks who made After Dark > (the screen saver)--Berkeley Systems? Anyway, it came with a tape and a > few braille sample screen layouts. It went through Mac UI > design--talking about what Apple recommended, what it looked like to a > sighted person, and then walked you through all the elements of the > braille layouts they included. > > There product was both great and horrible. It was great in that it gave > you access to the GUI at a level very similar to a sighted person. You > really did have to drag things around with the (virutal--keyboard > controlled) mouse for most operations. It was slow, but you really got > a feel for what was going on. Also, because it was so close to the > actual GUI, asking for help was easy. > > Then around 1995, I ended up having to use JAWS for Windows. Its > documentation and explanation of Windows UI was sufficient already being > familiar with the Mac to be able to follow what was going on. However, > without that earlier work I doubt I would have been able to follow a > GUI. > > Modern screen readers are both easier and more frustrating. In > particular, web browsers and office programs hide a lot of the GUI from > the blind user. (This is more true on Linux and Mac that Windows) > In particular, I can't really tell in a web browser whether some element > is to the left or right of another element or above or below. I can > tell whether one element is logically before or after another. In an > office program, I lost access to the ruler sometime in the 1990's, and > haven't regained all the things I could do with that since. > > I used to be able to do relatively competent layout of > documents--tables, figures, graphs, the like. I'd n
