Re: [board-discuss] How is TDC compelled to keep the user first?
Hi Brett! On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 2:05 PM Brett Cornwall wrote: > > Other Free Software projects have had for-profit entities created > underneath the stewardship of a non-profit; Mozilla Corporation and > Canonical are two living examples. Sacrifices to user empowerment are often > made at Mozilla Corporation (e.g. Pocket integration, advertising > partnerships to silently install code on browsers, etc. - The list grows > longer by the month as new scandals appear). Canonical has made similar > sacrifices (e.g. Ubuntu One proprietary service integration, > cease-and-desists towards fixubuntu.com). > > > 1. How would TDF intend to protect users against the inevitable > temptations to prioritize money/brand over users/computing ethics? "We can > always pull the plug" is not a compelling argument as that's only used for > the direst of circumstances, not the slow poisoning of the well that > Mozilla have experienced. > This is overstating TDC's vision, so the comparisons are massively unhelpful. It is being created to put the LibreOffice package TDF makes into the Windows and Mac appstores on TDF's behalf, and collect a small payment for the convenience. It will make clear the origin of the software as far as it is allowed to by those stores. It will spend the money paying developers in the community (both larger and smaller) to improve LibreOffice, through the usual TDF ESC processes. So no significant mission is leaving TDF. This is all in the CIC36 community support statement, which is this hadn't blown up now for some reason I was planning to post next week once the steering group agreed it. Your concerns relate to a company creating a product and operating independently of the community, which is not what's proposed here. > > 2. How will TDF assure communities that the creation of a for-profit > entity to manage branding that the above examples will not occur? > TDC is not managing TDF's branding. It just has a narrow, well-bounded license to act on TDF's behalf in app stores. Full stop. > > 3. What assurances does TDF offer that assuage fears that the lifeblood of > LibreOffice will pivot from one of community involvement to one of company > culture (with community involvement as a PR spin)? > Because we're not creating that sort of corporate vehicle. Cheers, Simon (proposed CEO for TDC and former TDF director)
Re: [board-discuss] How is TDC compelled to keep the user first?
On 28.02.20 15:04, Brett Cornwall wrote: Other Free Software projects have had for-profit entities created underneath the stewardship of a non-profit; Mozilla Corporation and Canonical are two living examples. Sacrifices to user empowerment are off-topic, but: how is Canonical related to any non-profit? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canonical_Ltd doesn't mention anything. 3. What assurances does TDF offer that assuage fears that the lifeblood of LibreOffice will pivot from one of community involvement to one of company culture (with community involvement as a PR spin)? what exactly do you mean? the majority of bugfixes and new features already come from developers employed by companies such as Red Hat, Collabora, CIB, and this has been the case for most of the existence of the project. of course most if not all of the developers employed by these companies consider themselves members of the LO community, and why shouldn't they? -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: board-discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/board-discuss/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [board-discuss] How is TDC compelled to keep the user first?
Hi Brett, First thank you for your questions; cogent, lucid, well articulated & challenging :-) On 28/02/2020 14:04, Brett Cornwall wrote: > Other Free Software projects have had for-profit entities created > underneath the stewardship of a non-profit; Mozilla Corporation and > Canonical are two living examples. Perhaps in both these cases - the difference is exclusive ownership of the TM here, and they totally dominate their ecosystems & communities whether intentionally or not. I guess Mozilla looks to me structurally not unlike TDF plus TDF's captive business entity. Similarly the intention with TDC is not to build a Mozilla style monolith that hires developers - but to contract that out in order to grow the number of independent companies & individuals contributing to development. That can help to build the ecosystem. Over time - new companies and individuals will want to diversify their revenue sources and evangelize LibreOffice to new customers, and niches. We saw this historically with Nokia's investment into Maemo - a flourishing of many companies and interest and investment. > Canonical has made similar > sacrifices (e.g. Ubuntu One proprietary service integration, > cease-and-desists towards fixubuntu.com). I know nothing of the specifics here. TDC will emphatically not own the LibreOffice brand: TDF will. TDC will have a limited, unilaterally terminate-able license and limited exclusivity to use it in app-stores. So in the case of a (critical?) website - TDF could give them a license to use the brand in a suitable way as now; why not. > 1. How would TDF intend to protect users against the inevitable > temptations to prioritize money/brand over users/computing ethics? "We > can always pull the plug" is not a compelling argument as that's only > used for the direst of circumstances, not the slow poisoning of the well > that Mozilla have experienced. I would imagine that the TDF members can elect boards that would put pressure on TDC to stop doing that ultimately up to and including the option of pulling the plug by choosing to revoke TDC's TM license unilaterally. > 2. How will TDF assure communities that the creation of a for-profit > entity to manage branding that the above examples will not occur? Hmm; I don't see TDC as managing branding, I would expect TDF to do that. I would expect TDC to follow the branding coming out of the marketing / UX teams in the community - that TDF are involved with. > 3. What assurances does TDF offer that assuage fears that the lifeblood > of LibreOffice will pivot from one of community involvement to one of > company culture (with community involvement as a PR spin)? So - I think this is an excellent question for any corporate or non-profit's involvement in FLOSS. It is the same question whenever TDF hires a staff member to do something the community can also do - and there really is no easy answer. TDF staff (typically) have a heavy focus on not per-se doing the job, but growing and enabling the community around doing that job. Beyond that, having many diverse entities and individuals contributing is surely a good thing; certainly rather than a monolithic organization which both Mozilla & Ubuntu are. My 2 cents anyway, ATB, Michael. -- michael.me...@collabora.com <><, GM Collabora Productivity Hangout: mejme...@gmail.com, Skype: mmeeks (M) +44 7795 666 147 - timezone usually UK / Europe -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: board-discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/board-discuss/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
[board-discuss] How is TDC compelled to keep the user first?
Other Free Software projects have had for-profit entities created underneath the stewardship of a non-profit; Mozilla Corporation and Canonical are two living examples. Sacrifices to user empowerment are often made at Mozilla Corporation (e.g. Pocket integration, advertising partnerships to silently install code on browsers, etc. - The list grows longer by the month as new scandals appear). Canonical has made similar sacrifices (e.g. Ubuntu One proprietary service integration, cease-and-desists towards fixubuntu.com). 1. How would TDF intend to protect users against the inevitable temptations to prioritize money/brand over users/computing ethics? "We can always pull the plug" is not a compelling argument as that's only used for the direst of circumstances, not the slow poisoning of the well that Mozilla have experienced. 2. How will TDF assure communities that the creation of a for-profit entity to manage branding that the above examples will not occur? 3. What assurances does TDF offer that assuage fears that the lifeblood of LibreOffice will pivot from one of community involvement to one of company culture (with community involvement as a PR spin)? Thank you for your time. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
[board-discuss] Re: Trademark policy
No, I was referring to the trademark licenses TDF extends to uses that are not allowed under that policy (such as branding by companies or usage on goods). In those cases, TDF offers a commercial-style trademark license. To discuss it further I suggest we move to the Members list as it's another legal matter. S. On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 1:04 PM Dennis Roczek wrote: > Hi Board, > > Hi Simon, > > > you just were telling us in the public part of the board meeting that > the TDF can remove the trade mark of the TDC with a prenotification of > 30 days. > > Is the trade mark policy basically the one published in the wiki? [0] Or > is it another one (and is this the published somewhere else)? > > > > Best regards, > > Dennis > > > [0] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/TDF/Policies/Trademark_Policy > > -- *Simon Phipps*, * Deputy Board Director, *The Document Foundation *Desk:* +44 238 098 7027 *Mobile/Signal:* +44 774 776 2816 *Official address*: Kurfürstendamm 188, 10707 Berlin, DE Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts Legal details: http://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint
Re: [board-discuss] Trademark policy
Hi Dennis, On 28/02/2020 13:04, Dennis Roczek wrote: > you just were telling us in the public part of the board meeting that > the TDF can remove the trade mark of the TDC with a prenotification of > 30 days. That is the plan. > Is the trade mark policy basically the one published in the wiki? [0] Or > is it another one (and is this the published somewhere else)? We currently have several TM licenses for all sorts of entities across the ecosystem - anyone in our community using the LibreOffice brand on a product, service etc. should be assumed to have one. You can't eg. print a T-shirt or a mug with our branding on it without one. Those are all very similar in substance - and are IIRC all unilaterally revocable with ~zero notice by TDF. If the BoD doesn't like what you do - then they can decide to just pull the plug by a simple majority. I would expect a similar, but bespoke agreement for TDC to give time to wind up TDC & give staff notice. That gives huge influence over anyone who signs one of those and does business with the LibreOffice brand. I know - I used to ship product under one, and it turned every minor suggestion of a BoD member into a nightmare feature-request I had to deliver on or risk termination of my business =) so - have been on both sides here; and it's not at all pleasant being at the whim of 10 people with very different visions. > [0] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/TDF/Policies/Trademark_Policy This is the general policy, primarily focused at avoiding some of the mistakes & problems Mozilla experienced with Firefox, built on the OpenOffice experience and soon. Hence the bit at the end: "If you have questions about using TDF marks, or if you think you should be able to use TDF marks for any purpose not allowed by this policy and would like permission for that use, or for more information concerning our label program, please contact TDF by emailing le...@documentfoundation.org (non-public)." ATB, Michael. -- michael.me...@collabora.com <><, GM Collabora Productivity Hangout: mejme...@gmail.com, Skype: mmeeks (M) +44 7795 666 147 - timezone usually UK / Europe -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: board-discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/board-discuss/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
[board-discuss] Representation statement
I, Cor Nouws, elected member of the Board of Directors of The Document Foundation, hereby and until further notice, nominate the following deputies to represent me during board calls and meetings, in the order set forth below: 1. Nicolas Christener 2. Paolo Vecchi Cheers, Cor -- Cor Nouws, member Board of Directors The Document Foundation, Kurfürstendamm 188, 10707 Berlin Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts Legal details: http://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint GPD key ID: 0xB13480A6 - 591A 30A7 36A0 CE3C 3D28 A038 E49D 7365 B134 80A6 mobile : +31 (0)6 25 20 7001 skype : cornouws blog: cor4office-nl.blogspot.com jabber : cor4off...@jabber.org -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: board-discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/board-discuss/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
[board-discuss] Trademark policy
Hi Board, Hi Simon, you just were telling us in the public part of the board meeting that the TDF can remove the trade mark of the TDC with a prenotification of 30 days. Is the trade mark policy basically the one published in the wiki? [0] Or is it another one (and is this the published somewhere else)? Best regards, Dennis [0] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/TDF/Policies/Trademark_Policy -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: board-discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/board-discuss/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [board-discuss] The Document Collective ownership
It would be better to conduct this discussion on the Members list. S. On Fri, Feb 28, 2020 at 12:57 PM Ilmari Lauhakangas < ilmari.lauhakan...@libreoffice.org> wrote: > In the public board call today it was said that the proposed commercial > entity The Document Collective should not be owned by TDF because of > litigation risk. The risk is thought to form due to the anticipated > significant amount of funds moved through TDC (which will lead TDC to > enter into various contracts). > > I am not convinced that this is reason enough to establish TDC outside > TDF. How did the board arrive at this conclusion? By consulting with > lawyers? > > TDF members should understand that in practice nothing is stopping TDF > from owning a commercial entity either in Germany or outside of Germany. > > Furthermore, TDF already has a business entity which handles the > production costs and income from sales of promotional products (t-shirts > etc.). This existing entity could be used to pilot the ideas behind the > TDC proposal. > > Ilmari > > -- > To unsubscribe e-mail to: board-discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org > Problems? > https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ > Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > List archive: > https://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/board-discuss/ > Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy > > -- *Simon Phipps* http://webmink.com *Office:* +1 (415) 683-7660 *or* +44 (238) 098 7027 *Signal/Mobile*: +44 774 776 2816
[board-discuss] The Document Collective ownership
In the public board call today it was said that the proposed commercial entity The Document Collective should not be owned by TDF because of litigation risk. The risk is thought to form due to the anticipated significant amount of funds moved through TDC (which will lead TDC to enter into various contracts). I am not convinced that this is reason enough to establish TDC outside TDF. How did the board arrive at this conclusion? By consulting with lawyers? TDF members should understand that in practice nothing is stopping TDF from owning a commercial entity either in Germany or outside of Germany. Furthermore, TDF already has a business entity which handles the production costs and income from sales of promotional products (t-shirts etc.). This existing entity could be used to pilot the ideas behind the TDC proposal. Ilmari -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: board-discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/board-discuss/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
