RE: Uplift (was RE: Is Anyone Else Offended By This?)
--- Jim Sharkey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip OTOH, you never know. A little Kiqui, some butter, a bit of lemon, a dash of white wine and some shitake mushrooms sauteed over medium heat might hit the spot...I love saffron, but it's *mighty* expensive, so I'll have to pass on the rice on my budget. Think I'll pass on Kiqui legs, but I wonder about barbequed Tandu... :) Aside: Have you tried any 'world food marts' or other import stores? I get my curry powder and candied ginger from an Indian store, where it is at least half the price of conventional ones, and a friend who has used saffron says it's more like 1/3rd of regular $. (Only problem is that they are frequently in hard-to-find or far-away-from-centrally-located places.) M...Mushrooms Maru __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Is Anyone Else Offended By This?
Jean-Louis Couturier wrote: I haven't read Bujold and have no idea what uterine replicators are. I was thinking of an artificial womb. Hospitals already have incubators and as time passes, premature babies have a better and better chances at life. The development that a fetus needs to have attained to have a chance at life outside of its mother's womb is also diminishing. a good chunk snipped; refer to Jean-Louis's original post for more details Is this clearer? This is clear, at least to me, and about what Bujold envisions. This would solve the problem of the pregnancy threatening the life of the mother, and would take away *that* particular moral dilemma. Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Is Anyone Else Offended By This?
On 16 Jan 2003 at 9:58, Julia Thompson wrote: Jean-Louis Couturier wrote: I haven't read Bujold and have no idea what uterine replicators are. I was thinking of an artificial womb. Hospitals already have incubators and as time passes, premature babies have a better and better chances at life. The development that a fetus needs to have attained to have a chance at life outside of its mother's womb is also diminishing. a good chunk snipped; refer to Jean-Louis's original post for more details Is this clearer? This is clear, at least to me, and about what Bujold envisions. This would solve the problem of the pregnancy threatening the life of the mother, and would take away *that* particular moral dilemma. Fine. Now explain to the kid why the Mother doesn't know them, doesn't WANT to know them and didn't even bear them *shrugs* Adoption and knowing who ones parents are can be a minefield in terms of morals as well. Andy Dawn Falcon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Is Anyone Else Offended By This?
-Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: John D. Giorgis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Verzonden: woensdag 15 januari 2003 3:03 Aan: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Onderwerp: RE: Is Anyone Else Offended By This? At 02:09 PM 1/14/2003 -0500 Damon wrote: I am shocked to see that you apparently believe that women would get an abortion simply because they can get it for free. Really John, making such a decision is a hell of a lot harder than that. ATTRIBUTION ERROR: I wrote that, not Damon. I think that it is a basic truism that when a service becomes cheaper, people demand more of it. That is correct when a person's *first* concern is money (such as with a two-for-one deal on, say, food). However, I doubt any woman will get an abortion simply because she can get it for free. But feel free to provide evidence to the contrary... Sorry to disappoint you, John, but capitalist theory does not ALWAYS apply. The decision to buy two hamburgers for the price of one is wildly different from deciding to have an abortion. Indeed, if provoding the abortions for free isn't providing the service to those who would not otherwise ordinarily procure the abortion service, then why else would he offer it for free? According to dr. Tiller's own news release, he hopes to draw attention to the increasing pressure being placed on abortion from pro-life legislation. Besides, how do you know for a fact that the women who will make use of his free service would otherwise not have an abortion? I agree. I had a friend who needed to get an abortion. Correction. She wanted to get an abortion. Damon provided no details about this. So, unless he either provided you with the details off-list or if you know his friend personally, you cannot possibly know if she only *wanted* it or actually *needed* it (like for medical reasons). Making such assumptions is not exactly beneficial to your credibility, John. Please refrain from making them if you want to be taken seriously. Thank you. Jeroen Painful Memories van Baardwijk LEGAL NOTICE: By replying to this message, you understand and accept that your replies (both on-list and off-list) may be published on-line and in any other form, and that I cannot and shall not be held responsible for any negative consequences (monetary and otherwise) this may have for you. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Is Anyone Else Offended By This?
John said: I think that it is a basic truism that when a service becomes cheaper, people demand more of it. There are markets in which this is only weakly true. For example, the launch vehicle market is quite inelastic - price reductions don't lead to an increase in overall demand, because anybody who can afford the satellite can afford a launch at current prices too. (This is why I think space industrialisation plans that rely on radically cheaper launches are a bad idea.) I would imagine that the economics of abortion are similar. Indeed, if provoding the abortions for free isn't providing the service to those who would not otherwise ordinarily procure the abortion service, then why else would he offer it for free? So that people use his services rather than those of another doctor offering abortions. So that he raises awareness of his business. So that he will in future get a bigger slice of the pie, which is economically worthwhile for him whether or not the pie is growing. Rich GCU Invisible Hand ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Uplift (was RE: Is Anyone Else Offended By This?)
Jim Sharkey wrote: I love saffron, but it's *mighty* expensive, so I'll have to pass on the rice on my budget. Try and buy Turkish saffron. It isn't all the quality but it is still good and a lot cheaper then the real deal. Sonja ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Is Anyone Else Offended By This?
Excluding the 1/3 or so of conceptions that are `aborted by God' God aborts 1/3 of all conceptions Doesn't He realize that each one is a human life!?!? He's going to go to HELL for this!! Brad DeLong ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Uplift (was RE: Is Anyone Else Offended By This?)
-Original Message- From: Jim Sharkey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 05:42 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Uplift (was RE: Is Anyone Else Offended By This?) Miller, Jeffrey wrote: You win. Let's talk about uplift :) Dan, I wanted to take a digital moment and apologize for a short and snippy answer to what I should've assumed was an honest question. I read into it when I shouldn't have. Sorry 'bout that. Okay. I personally think that Earthclan should grant the Kiqui to their Kanten allies for Uplift. Opinions? :) I think that everyone is overlooking chickens for Uplift. They can see UV - that's gotta be useful. -j- ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Is Anyone Else Offended By This?
At 10:34 AM 1/15/03 +, Richard Baker wrote: John said: I think that it is a basic truism that when a service becomes cheaper, people demand more of it. There are markets in which this is only weakly true. For example, the launch vehicle market is quite inelastic - price reductions don't lead to an increase in overall demand, because anybody who can afford the satellite can afford a launch at current prices too. All those list members who have $20,000,000 US of their very own (not venture capital, etc.) available to spend, raise your hands . . . All those list members who, by their next vacation could come up with $20,000 for a week-long cruise which, instead of stopping at a few tourist trap islands in the Caribbean, consisted of a loop around the back side of the Moon and a return to Earth¹, by the same sign . . . Granted, No bucks, no Buck Rogers, is true. But so is: You've got to have a dream If you don't have a dream How you gonna make a dream come true? _ ¹Full refund to whoever pushes Kathie Lee Gifford out the airlock the second she starts singing If they could see me now . . . --Ronn! :) I always knew that I would see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed that I would see the last. --Dr. Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Uplift (was RE: Is Anyone Else Offended By This?)
Jeffrey Miller wrote: I think that everyone is overlooking chickens for Uplift. They can see UV - that's gotta be useful. Hamsters. They have very dexterous (if somewhat small) hands, the *love* exploring (my wife and I can put our hamster in her hamster ball and she'll run around the house for hours), and they are quite smart and strong, as evidenced by their ability to escape from any cage. Ours escaped twice in the first two weeks we had her, from two different kinds of cage. She's in a fish tank now, and we've had to put some heavy books on top of the cover screen (while leaving enough space for adequate ventilation), and we've *still* caught her almost halfway out. Also, their cheek pouches (typically used to store and transport food), along with their escape-artist talents, make them perfectly suited to espionage... Hamsters should definitely be candidates for Uplift. :-) Reggie Bautista Hamster-Friend Maru _ The new MSN 8 is here: Try it free* for 2 months http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Uplift (was RE: Is Anyone Else Offended By This?)
Hamsters. They have very dexterous (if somewhat small) hands, the *love* exploring (my wife and I can put our hamster in her hamster ball and she'll run around the house for hours), and they are quite smart and strong, as evidenced by their ability to escape from any cage. Ours escaped twice in the first two weeks we had her, from two different kinds of cage. She's in a fish tank now, and we've had to put some heavy books on top of the cover screen (while leaving enough space for adequate ventilation), and we've *still* caught her almost halfway out. Also, their cheek pouches (typically used to store and transport food), along with their escape-artist talents, make them perfectly suited to espionage... Hamsters should definitely be candidates for Uplift. :-) Hamptaro! The Terragen Confederation's cutest, most leathaly sweet, Secret Agent No. No! NO! No Hampster Uplift, no way. Its just t inhumane. Today another high-level Soro Military Officer died of mysterious sugar poisoning in the Calafia theatre. Terragen tricks suspected. No sapient should have to die of Hampster induced sacharine poisoning. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Is Anyone Else Offended By This?
John D. Giorgis wrote: At 02:09 PM 1/14/2003 -0500 Damon wrote: I agree. I had a friend who needed to get an abortion. Correction. She wanted to get an abortion. There are alternatives. Unless you know the circumstances, YOU DON'T KNOW THAT. I have a friend who, at one point, had a medical condition such that a pregnancy would have been life-threatening. She was taking every precaution she reasonably could, but had all those precautions failed (e.g., pill failing AND being raped!), the only real course of action would have been to abort. Given the choice between not aborting, having her die, and having the baby die (because it probably would have hit the fatal point before the baby could survive outside the womb, even with all modern technology), or just losing the baby and grieving over it, I don't think any reasonable person would have tried to argue her out of the abortion. Thankfully, that situation never materialized, she has since recovered, and in fact is now a mother. But anyone saying that there ALWAYS is a choice that doesn't involve 2 deaths instead of just 1 doesn't know what they're talking about, and unless they are familiar with a specific situation, should not comment on that particular situation. Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Uplift (was RE: Is Anyone Else Offended By This?)
Reggie Bautista wrote: Hamsters. They have very dexterous (if somewhat small) hands, the *love* exploring (my wife and I can put our hamster in her hamster ball and she'll run around the house for hours), and they are quite smart and strong, as evidenced by their ability to escape from any cage. Ours escaped twice in the first two weeks we had her, from two different kinds of cage. She's in a fish tank now, and we've had to put some heavy books on top of the cover screen (while leaving enough space for adequate ventilation), and we've *still* caught her almost halfway out. I hope those aren't books you want to keep. I lost a nice book about the animals of North America, after I used it to keep a hamster in his cage, and he tried to chew his way out. :-) __ Steve Sloan . Huntsville, Alabama = [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brin-L list pages .. http://www.brin-l.org Chmeee's 3D Objects http://www.sloan3d.com/chmeee 3D and Drawing Galleries .. http://www.sloansteady.com Software Science Fiction, Science, and Computer Links Science fiction scans . http://www.sloan3d.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Uplift (was RE: Is Anyone Else Offended By This?)
I hope those aren't books you want to keep. I lost a nice book about the animals of North America, after I used it to keep a hamster in his cage, and he tried to chew his way out. :-) Haha, my roommate my freshman year in college found 2 hamsters on the road and brought them back to the dorm. We kept them in a drawer for a few months until the end of the semester. Every morning they would climb up the back of the drawers and I'd squish one getting dressed in the morning...they survived. At the end of the semester the drawer stank of hamster musk and there was a 1in hole chewed through the back... Damon. Damon Agretto [EMAIL PROTECTED] Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum. http://www.geocities.com/garrand.geo/index.html Now Building: Revell's Tiger Ausf. H ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Uplift (was RE: Is Anyone Else Offended By This?)
I wrote: Hamsters. They have very dexterous (if somewhat small) hands, the *love* exploring (my wife and I can put our hamster in her hamster ball and she'll run around the house for hours), and they are quite smart and strong, as evidenced by their ability to escape from any cage. Ours escaped twice in the first two weeks we had her, from two different kinds of cage. She's in a fish tank now, and we've had to put some heavy books on top of the cover screen (while leaving enough space for adequate ventilation), and we've *still* caught her almost halfway out. Steve Sloan replied: I hope those aren't books you want to keep. I lost a nice book about the animals of North America, after I used it to keep a hamster in his cage, and he tried to chew his way out. :-) They are two very old dictionaries. We have newer editions of each of them, and check the old ones daily for signs that Ginger* has been able to eat her way into them. So far, she hasn't gotten through the mesh cage top. But thanks for checking :-) Reggie Bautista *Her full name is Gingerbread Cinnamon Muad'Dib Bautista, muad'dib of course being as adapted kangaroo mouse from Dune. Since hamsters originated in the Syrian desert, the name seemed to fit. _ MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Is Anyone Else Offended By This?
In a message dated 1/14/2003 3:37:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Just as FYI..the *Jewish* view... I thought the Jewish view was that life does not begin until the child graduates from med school (rim shot) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Uplift (was RE: Is Anyone Else Offended By This?)
Sonja van Baardwijk-Holten wrote: Jim Sharkey wrote: I love saffron, but it's *mighty* expensive, so I'll have to pass on the rice on my budget. Try and buy Turkish saffron. It isn't all the quality but it is still good and a lot cheaper then the real deal. Thanks for the tip, Sonja. I'll keep an eye out for it. Jim ___ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Is Anyone Else Offended By This?
Alberto Monteiro wrote: JDG wrote: Subject: Late Term Kansas Abortionist to Perform Free Abortions Source: Lawrence Journal World January 13, 2003 Late Term Kansas Abortionist to Perform Free Abortions No, I don't feel offended at all. If abortion is legal, why not do a mass-abortion? Maybe they should show balls, and prove their point by making a huge barbecue with the aborted fetuses! That would be in poor taste. Now, making a huge barbecue with the doctor's balls, that might be a different story Julia just kidding, OK? ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Is Anyone Else Offended By This?
Trolling again, are we? : ) Wichita, KS -- George Tiller, the infamous Kansas late-term abortionist, will do free abortions on poor women Saturday to mark 30 years since the Roe v. Wade Supreme Court decision that legalized abortion. ... I think that the above really hits home the ludicrousness of the abortion situation - and to encourage women to have abortions by offering discounts or free for a limited time offers, just totally grosses me out. JDG John-- It is extremely insensitive to suggest that offering abortions for no monetary cost promotes them. The emotional and practical issues involved in choosing between abortion and birth are so much more important that they dwarf the actual cost. UNLESS, that is, one is too poor to afford an abortion in the first place. I think that most people do not have an absolute moral stance on abortion in practice, and view all abortions as bad with late abortions much worse. Wouldn't it make more sense to have abortions free, so that those which were performed could be done sooner, rather than prolonging the process while poor women secure financing? ---David ROU Blood sacrifice of an unborn child is sacred to the Goddess, and should never be done lightly. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Is Anyone Else Offended By This?
-Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: J.D. Giorgis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Verzonden: Geen Aan: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Onderwerp: Is Anyone Else Offended By This? Late Term Kansas Abortionist to Perform Free Abortions Wichita, KS -- George Tiller, the infamous Kansas late-term abortionist, will do free abortions on poor women Saturday to mark 30 years since the Roe v. Wade Supreme Court decision that legalized abortion. Tiller said in a news release that he hoped the free abortions would draw attention to the increasing pressure being placed on abortion from pro-life legislation. ** I can just see the signs now: 1 Day Only, 100% off abortion sale. Or Bring a Friend Day, Buy One Abortion, Get the Second One Free! John, abortion qualifies as one of the most traumatic events a person can go through in life. Your comment is extremely insensitive and offensive. I think that the above really hits home the ludicrousness of the abortion situation The only ludicrous thing about the abortion situation is that a bunch of right-wing religious fanatics want to dictate to women what they can and cannot do with and to their own bodies. and to encourage women to have abortions by offering discounts or free for a limited time offers, just totally grosses me out. He is not encouraging women to have abortions, he is helping those who may have a perfectly valid reason for having an abortion but are unable to pay for it. IMO, George Tiller deserves a medal for his action. I am shocked to see that you apparently believe that women would get an abortion simply because they can get it for free. Really John, making such a decision is a hell of a lot harder than that. Jeroen You don't know what you're talking about van Baardwijk LEGAL NOTICE: By replying to this message, you understand and accept that your replies (both on-list and off-list) may be published on-line and in any other form, and that I cannot and shall not be held responsible for any negative consequences (monetary and otherwise) this may have for you. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Is Anyone Else Offended By This?
I am shocked to see that you apparently believe that women would get an abortion simply because they can get it for free. Really John, making such a decision is a hell of a lot harder than that. I agree. I had a friend who needed to get an abortion. It certainly opened up my perspective on the subject, and what a woman goes through when making that decision. Damon. Damon Agretto [EMAIL PROTECTED] Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum. http://www.geocities.com/garrand.geo/index.html Now Building: Italeri's Merkava ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Is Anyone Else Offended By This?
At 13:18 2003-01-14 -0600, Dan wrote: - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 10:25 AM Subject: RE: Is Anyone Else Offended By This? The only ludicrous thing about the abortion situation is that a bunch of right-wing religious fanatics want to dictate to women what they can and cannot do with and to their own bodies. No, its that these religious fanatics want to limit what parents are allowed to do to their children. Dan M. And this is why the debate is going nowhere : sides don't even agree on what they're arguing about. It seems to me that there can be no solution to this dilemma until we can garantee that no woman has to live 9 months of pregnancy against her will, while on the other hand preserving the unborn's life. I'd like to see the pro-life and pro-choice activists pour their efforts and money into medical research to make this possible rather than on lobbying and making rules which will inevitably be unacceptable for many. I'd like to see abortion clinics become adoption centers. Jean-Louis ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Is Anyone Else Offended By This?
JDG wrote: Subject: Late Term Kansas Abortionist to Perform Free Abortions Source: Lawrence Journal World January 13, 2003 Late Term Kansas Abortionist to Perform Free Abortions No, I don't feel offended at all. If abortion is legal, why not do a mass-abortion? Maybe they should show balls, and prove their point by making a huge barbecue with the aborted fetuses! Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Is Anyone Else Offended By This?
- Original Message - From: Jean-Louis Couturier [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 1:43 PM Subject: Re: Is Anyone Else Offended By This? Dan M. And this is why the debate is going nowhere : sides don't even agree on what they're arguing about. This particular point I think can be resolved factually. A fetus/embreyo is not the same organism as the mother. It is within the mother, it is not the mother. It seems to me that there can be no solution to this dilemma until we can garantee that no woman has to live 9 months of pregnancy against her will, while on the other hand preserving the unborn's life. There is no easy solution, certainly. We do have a unique problem in that the alternative to terminating a life is not simply walking away from a bar arugement, etc. There is also the phenomenal male/female assymetry here: a man can simply deny the responsibility for a child conceived in a casual relationship, the woman has a lot of consequences to deal with. So, I can appreciate the position of folks who do not think that abortions should be illegal. I'll also agree that many folks in the pro-life camp give the strong impression that they are more worried about punishing sex outside of marriage than anything else. However, I do get very frustrated when the issue is depicted in terms of a woman's right to control her own body or reproductive rights. Historically, killings and abuses been couched in terms of individual rights. By denying the reality of what happens, one can sanitize it. Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Is Anyone Else Offended By This?
On 14 Jan 2003 at 14:36, Dan Minette wrote: Dan M. And this is why the debate is going nowhere : sides don't even agree on what they're arguing about. This particular point I think can be resolved factually. A fetus/embreyo is not the same organism as the mother. It is within the mother, it is not the mother. Just as FYI..the *Jewish* view... It states in the bible that if a woman bearing child is injured by someone, and the unborn fetus/embreyo aborts then a monetary fee must be paid to the woman. If the woman dies, then it's murder. *fans the flames which will follow* Andy Dawn Falcon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Is Anyone Else Offended By This?
-Original Message- From: Andrew Crystall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 12:37 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Is Anyone Else Offended By This? On 14 Jan 2003 at 14:36, Dan Minette wrote: Dan M. And this is why the debate is going nowhere : sides don't even agree on what they're arguing about. This particular point I think can be resolved factually. A fetus/embreyo is not the same organism as the mother. It is within the mother, it is not the mother. Just as FYI..the *Jewish* view... It states in the bible that if a woman bearing child is injured by someone, and the unborn fetus/embreyo aborts then a monetary fee must be paid to the woman. If the woman dies, then it's murder. *fans the flames which will follow* No flames. I think you point out (correctly) that much of this is a religious debate clothed as secular morality. -j- ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Is Anyone Else Offended By This?
- Original Message - From: Miller, Jeffrey [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 3:39 PM Subject: RE: Is Anyone Else Offended By This? No flames. I think you point out (correctly) that much of this is a religious debate clothed as secular morality. What is secular morality in your view? Do human rights exist, or just political rights? Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Is Anyone Else Offended By This?
-Original Message- From: Dan Minette [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 02:21 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Is Anyone Else Offended By This? - Original Message - From: Miller, Jeffrey [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 3:39 PM Subject: RE: Is Anyone Else Offended By This? No flames. I think you point out (correctly) that much of this is a religious debate clothed as secular morality. What is secular morality in your view? Do human rights exist, or just political rights? Hmm.. well, I don't think I can answer that, Dan. You win. Let's talk about uplift :) -j- ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Is Anyone Else Offended By This?
At 08:00 PM 1/14/2003 +, you wrote: JDG wrote: Subject: Late Term Kansas Abortionist to Perform Free Abortions Source: Lawrence Journal World January 13, 2003 Late Term Kansas Abortionist to Perform Free Abortions No, I don't feel offended at all. If abortion is legal, why not do a mass-abortion? Maybe they should show balls, and prove their point by making a huge barbecue with the aborted fetuses! Alberto Monteiro Heck the real tragedy is that the good doctor didn't announce this free day four months ago when the couples could have had some, err, premature celebrations. Kevin T. Evil is as evil does ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Is Anyone Else Offended By This?
From: Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Miller, Jeffrey [EMAIL PROTECTED] No flames. I think you point out (correctly) that much of this is a religious debate clothed as secular morality. What is secular morality in your view? Do human rights exist, or just political rights? Only constitutional rights. It is therefor of no surprise that right wing religious fanatics do everything they can to attack, limit, remove those rights. http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/2437/fundies.htm It wasn't so long ago that genocide and human sacrifices was 'the will of god'. Judges 11:30-40: We have: Murder/human (Virgin) sacrifice, ancestor appeasement, and this is the will of god. There is no moral foundation whatsoever in religion / bibles / talmuds / korans / Bo M*m*n's or any other myth. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Is Anyone Else Offended By This?
- Original Message - From: The Fool [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 4:56 PM Subject: Re: Is Anyone Else Offended By This? From: Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Miller, Jeffrey [EMAIL PROTECTED] No flames. I think you point out (correctly) that much of this is a religious debate clothed as secular morality. What is secular morality in your view? Do human rights exist, or just political rights? Only constitutional rights. It is therefor of no surprise that right wing religious fanatics do everything they can to attack, limit, remove those rights. So, I take it that you feel that the Declaration of Independance is a deeply flawed document? Or, that before 1865, blacks had no human rights? Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Is Anyone Else Offended By This?
From: Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: The Fool [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Miller, Jeffrey [EMAIL PROTECTED] No flames. I think you point out (correctly) that much of this is a religious debate clothed as secular morality. What is secular morality in your view? Do human rights exist, or just political rights? Only constitutional rights. It is therefor of no surprise that right wing religious fanatics do everything they can to attack, limit, remove those rights. So, I take it that you feel that the Declaration of Independance is a deeply flawed document? Or, that before 1865, blacks had no human rights? Both rights based on religious 'morality' and political 'morality' are flawed. Which one is closer to science? Religious trvth Never changes. political truth evolves. (Evolution does not necessarily mean improvement). a. DoI: Flawed. Never fixed. b. CoUS: Flawed, but somewhat fixed. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Is Anyone Else Offended By This?
Jean-Louis Couturier wrote: It seems to me that there can be no solution to this dilemma until we can garantee that no woman has to live 9 months of pregnancy against her will, while on the other hand preserving the unborn's life. I'd like to see the pro-life and pro-choice activists pour their efforts and money into medical research to make this possible rather than on lobbying and making rules which will inevitably be unacceptable for many. I'd like to see abortion clinics become adoption centers. You've expressed exactly how I feel about this particular topic as well. I'd like to see alot more effort go into education and the like, rather than this pointless debate that has raged for thrity years or more and shows no signs of abating any time soon. Jim ___ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Uplift (was RE: Is Anyone Else Offended By This?)
Miller, Jeffrey wrote: You win. Let's talk about uplift :) Okay. I personally think that Earthclan should grant the Kiqui to their Kanten allies for Uplift. Opinions? :) Jim ___ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Is Anyone Else Offended By This?
A few years ago, I look into the reported statistics of abortion. The reported statistics are not very accurate, but are interesting. Excluding the 1/3 or so of conceptions that are `aborted by God' (i.e., are still births, often not noticed by the mothers, and to say that God is omnipotient is to assume a specific religious belief), the lowest proportion of conceptions, legal and illegal, that were aborted by humans in a nearly mono-religious culture in Europe were in Spain. The lowest proportion of conceptions, legal and illegal, that were aborted by human in a multi-religious culture in Europe were in the Netherlands. An elderly friend of mine, a demographer (who may not like my characterizing her has `elderly', but who is post-menopausal) told me that the reason that Britain has a higher rate of abortion than the Dutch is that British parents are less likely to talk to their children about sex. So young men and women engender more unintended conceptions in Britain than their Dutch counterparts. I don't know about the US except for two features: it is a multi-religious culture, not a mono-religious culture; and, it appears that about half the drop in crime rates in the past decade or so are due to the legal abortions, starting in the 1970s, of future criminals, who never committed crimes because they did not become old enough to become active criminals. Furthermore, bear in mind that `murder' is culturally defined. In the US, for example, killing in a war is not defined as murder, although the US Army (as reported by S. L. A. Marshall) says that at least 2/3rd of US soldiers in WWII `were pacifists when being shot at by the enemy'. He and others in the US Army interpreted these men as believing that shooting to kill an enemy, rather than shooting towards him, was a act of murder. The US Army had the M-16 designed for such pacifist soldiers: as an inaccurate weapon (for the ordinary soldier), but able to send many bullets in the direction of the enemy. (I was told that during the Vietnam War, the US found it took 100,000 bullets shot towards its enemy to kill just one of them.) In the past, many cultures supported the killing of babies who had been born. The killing was sometimes direct, but often indirect. Rather than kill them directly, the action was to abandon the babies, like Moses. Sometimes the babies were put into a boat made of reeds. At other times, the babies were placed on the steps of a church, as in France. The point is that most abandoned babies would die, but a few would live. This indirect form of murder helped soften the blow to a mother who could not support the baby. Incidentally, there is a science fiction story (whose name, author, etc., I cannot remember) of a culture in which mothers had the right to kill their children up to age 12 (if I remember correctly; whatever the age, it was high). In practice, real cultures, not science fiction cultures, have limited infanticide to babies who not only could not fight back but who were so young that they could not express an understanding of what was happening to them. Legitimate killing, whether in war, or of babies, or of fetuses, is culturally defined. If you are against legal abortion and live in a multi-religious culture, then you are favoring (in practice, possibly not in theory) more abortion over all than if your favor legal abortion. Put another way, the Catholic Pope, who is against legal abortion, probably reduces the total number of human-caused abortions in a mono-cultural country, such as Spain; but he increases the total number of humanpcaused abortions in a multi-cultural country, and also increases the amount of crime a generation later. Put another way, in the US, which is a multi-religious society, if you dislike abortion, humanly caused or otherwise, then you favor both good sex education in school and legal abortion. Either that or you believe in human perfectabilty: you believe that enough poor contemporary teenage girls in the US really will abstain from sex. The belief in human perfectabilty is said by some to be a liberal Democrat failure. I see some US conservatives and some Republicans as having the same belief. Certainly, the Communists thought that humans were perfectable. My opinion is that humans are not perfectable. I take the old, Latin proverb to heart: `Errara humanum est'; it is human to make mistakes. Hence, I think we need a law (which in the US, the Supreme Court has provided) that makes it possible for humans to be human. -- Robert J. Chassell Rattlesnake Enterprises http://www.rattlesnake.com GnuPG Key ID: 004B4AC8 http://www.teak.cc [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Relgion Re: Is Anyone Else Offended By This?
At 04:56 PM 1/14/2003 -0600 The Fool wrote: It wasn't so long ago that genocide and human sacrifices was 'the will of god'. Judges 11:30-40: We have: Murder/human (Virgin) sacrifice, ancestor appeasement, and this is the will of god. Ummm the book of Judges is about 5,000 years old. Is this really not so long ago, by your definition? There is no moral foundation whatsoever in religion / bibles / talmuds / korans / Bo M*m*n's or any other myth. Hmmm.. so the statement Love one another as you love yourself has no moral foundation? JDG ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] People everywhere want to say what they think; choose who will govern them; worship as they please; educate their children -- male and female; own property; and enjoy the benefits of their labor. These values of freedom are right and true for every person, in every society -- and the duty of protecting these values against their enemies is the common calling of freedom-loving people across the globe and across the ages. -US National Security Policy, 2002 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Uplift (was RE: Is Anyone Else Offended By This?)
Jim Sharkey wrote: Okay. I personally think that Earthclan should grant the Kiqui to their Kanten allies for Uplift. Opinions? :) Jim If we're gonna grant favours (and a client race is a pretty big favour), we need to be doing it with more powerful allies. Someone who is going to make a big difference in our galactic standing (survival)... Besides, aren't Kanten going to be a bit slow and cumbersome to deal with active little critters like Kiqui? Cheers Russell C. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Is Anyone Else Offended By This?
At 10:19 AM 1/14/2003 -0500 David Hobby wrote: Trolling again, are we? : ) Ahem. Uhhh. no.Is Doug trolling everytime he posts a criticism of George Bush? I was simply seeing if one of the numerous pro-choice denizens of this List, who frequently claim that abortion is a deeply intense and personal decision, would then be offended by an abortion businessman getting some cheap publicity by offering deep discounts on his abortion services. Shouldn't he instead always provide this deeply intense and personal service on a pay what you can basis to the poor? Wichita, KS -- George Tiller, the infamous Kansas late-term abortionist, will do free abortions on poor women Saturday to mark 30 years since the Roe v. Wade Supreme Court decision that legalized abortion. I think that most people do not have an absolute moral stance on abortion in practice, and view all abortions as bad with late abortions much worse. Wouldn't it make more sense to have abortions free, so that those which were performed could be done sooner, rather than prolonging the process while poor women secure financing? Sorry, to me that sounds like promoting late-term abortion as an alternative to an epidimic of infanticide (ala the practice of the Spartans exposing unwanted babies.) After all, since women will commit infanticide anyways, why not legalize it and regulate it, such that the killing can take places as cleanly, quickly, and safely as possible? JDG ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] People everywhere want to say what they think; choose who will govern them; worship as they please; educate their children -- male and female; own property; and enjoy the benefits of their labor. These values of freedom are right and true for every person, in every society -- and the duty of protecting these values against their enemies is the common calling of freedom-loving people across the globe and across the ages. -US National Security Policy, 2002 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Is Anyone Else Offended By This?
At 02:09 PM 1/14/2003 -0500 Damon wrote: I am shocked to see that you apparently believe that women would get an abortion simply because they can get it for free. Really John, making such a decision is a hell of a lot harder than that. I think that it is a basic truism that when a service becomes cheaper, people demand more of it. Indeed, if provoding the abortions for free isn't providing the service to those who would not otherwise ordinarily procure the abortion service, then why else would he offer it for free? I agree. I had a friend who needed to get an abortion. Correction. She wanted to get an abortion. There are alternatives. JDG ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] People everywhere want to say what they think; choose who will govern them; worship as they please; educate their children -- male and female; own property; and enjoy the benefits of their labor. These values of freedom are right and true for every person, in every society -- and the duty of protecting these values against their enemies is the common calling of freedom-loving people across the globe and across the ages. -US National Security Policy, 2002 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Is Anyone Else Offended By This?
Robert J. Chassell wrote: A few years ago, I look into the reported statistics of abortion. The reported statistics are not very accurate, but are interesting. Do you know what the stats are like where pregnancy is illegal? I imagine it is virtually impossible to compile statistics on abortions in countries where some pregnancies persecuted (such as China and Moslem countries). Cheers Russell C. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Is Anyone Else Offended By This?
At 02:43 PM 1/14/2003 -0500 Jean-Louis Couturier wrote: It seems to me that there can be no solution to this dilemma until we can garantee that no woman has to live 9 months of pregnancy against her will, while on the other hand preserving the unborn's life. I'd like to see the pro-life and pro-choice activists pour their efforts and money into medical research to make this possible rather than on lobbying and making rules which will inevitably be unacceptable for many. I interpreted this to be talking about developing technology like Lois Bujold's uterine replicators (Vorkosigan series of SF), but several others seem to have interpreted it differently. Is that what you meant, Jean-Louis? -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Is Anyone Else Offended By This?
John D. Giorgis wrote: Damon wrote: I am shocked to see that you apparently believe that women would get an abortion simply because they can get it for free. I think that it is a basic truism that when a service becomes cheaper, people demand more of it. Indeed, if provoding the abortions for free isn't providing the service to those who would not otherwise ordinarily procure the abortion service, then why else would he offer it for free? Now that's comedy. No one is going to get an abortion just because it's free. It's not like it's a two-for-one on Chicken McNuggets. People that want an abortion will find a way to get the money. Every time. Jim ___ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Uplift (was RE: Is Anyone Else Offended By This?)
Russell Chapman wrote Jim Sharkey wrote Okay. I personally think that Earthclan should grant the Kiqui to their Kanten allies for Uplift. Opinions? :) If we're gonna grant favours (and a client race is a pretty big favour), we need to be doing it with more powerful allies. Someone who is going to make a big difference in our galactic standing (survival)... Besides, aren't Kanten going to be a bit slow and cumbersome to deal with active little critters like Kiqui? The Kanten clan is pretty strong as moderates go. And Earth owes them more than one favor by now, I'm sure. I don't see any of the powerful clans getting bought off, as the Terrans have already managed to buy off the one that would be amenable to it. (At least among the ones we've been introduced to) Jim ___ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Is Anyone Else Offended By This?
On 14 Jan 2003 at 22:06, Jim Sharkey wrote: John D. Giorgis wrote: Damon wrote: I am shocked to see that you apparently believe that women would get an abortion simply because they can get it for free. I think that it is a basic truism that when a service becomes cheaper, people demand more of it. Indeed, if provoding the abortions for free isn't providing the service to those who would not otherwise ordinarily procure the abortion service, then why else would he offer it for free? Now that's comedy. No one is going to get an abortion just because it's free. It's not like it's a two-for-one on Chicken McNuggets. People that want an abortion will find a way to get the money. Every time. And a lot of the time, if it's not legal they have it done in a backstreet clinic, and often pick up nasties or stuffer the problems of a botched operation. The evidence IS there. That's why despite a personal bias against abortion, I don't support banning it. Andy Dawn Falcon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Is Anyone Else Offended By This?
On 15 Jan 2003 at 1:50, Robert J. Chassell wrote: In the past, many cultures supported the killing of babies who had been born. The killing was sometimes direct, but often indirect. Rather than kill them directly, the action was to abandon the babies, like Moses. Sometimes the babies were put into a boat made of reeds. At other times, the babies were placed on the steps of a church, as in France. The point is that most abandoned babies would die, but a few would live. This indirect form of murder helped soften the blow to a mother who could not support the baby. The Jewish custom on diasabled babies centuries ago was to set them aside. Also, the rise of christianity among the Romans was partly because of the prohibition on killing infants. True, part of it was because the army converted en-mass (the early christians adopted the Rites of Mythras as their Mass, and the Army were overwhelmingly Mythras worshipers..) but a lot was the matrons who could then say my god forbids it to murdering excess children. Andy Dawn Falcon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Uplift (was RE: Is Anyone Else Offended By This?)
I would think that would depend on whether or not the Kiqui go well with saffron flavored rice and Episiarch gravy... They're not recognized sapients, after all, so they might just be good eatin'. I better go eat dinner before I start contemplating what a Kiqui Dessert would taste like. Jon Iron Chef Sakai is now making a delicious-looking Kiqui in Orange Sauce Maru -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Jim Sharkey Sent: Tuesday, January 14, 2003 8:42 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Uplift (was RE: Is Anyone Else Offended By This?) Miller, Jeffrey wrote: You win. Let's talk about uplift :) Okay. I personally think that Earthclan should grant the Kiqui to their Kanten allies for Uplift. Opinions? :) Jim ___ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Uplift (was RE: Is Anyone Else Offended By This?)
Jon Gabriel wrote I would think that would depend on whether or not the Kiqui go well with saffron flavored rice and Episiarch gravy... They're not recognized sapients, after all, so they might just be good eatin'. I bet they can pass whatever tests are necessary for pre-sentience. They have a social order and a language, that ought to qualify them, I'd think. OTOH, you never know. A little Kiqui, some butter, a bit of lemon, a dash of white wine and some shitake mushrooms sauteed over medium heat might hit the spot...I love saffron, but it's *mighty* expensive, so I'll have to pass on the rice on my budget. Jim ___ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Uplift (was RE: Is Anyone Else Offended By This?)
On Tuesday 2003-01-14 21:31, Jim Sharkey wrote: Jon Gabriel wrote I would think that would depend on whether or not the Kiqui go well with saffron flavored rice and Episiarch gravy... They're not recognized sapients, after all, so they might just be good eatin'. I bet they can pass whatever tests are necessary for pre-sentience. They have a social order and a language, that ought to qualify them, I'd think. OTOH, you never know. A little Kiqui, some butter, a bit of lemon, a dash of white wine and some shitake mushrooms sauteed over medium heat might hit the spot...I love saffron, but it's *mighty* expensive, so I'll have to pass on the rice on my budget. Jim Hmm. It might be like eating fugu. When I eat Kiqui much of the elation comes from not knowing if the Chef got rid of enough heavy metals and poisons--the other half comes from the poisons and heavy metals. A Paha ab-Soro food critic. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
