Re: Request for Admin Action (Was: Re: Fascist Censorship spreadinglike Cancer)
From: Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Request for Admin Action (Was: Re: Fascist Censorship spreadinglike Cancer) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 07:57:17 -0500 On Sat, Mar 13, 2004 at 02:18:34AM -0500, Jon Gabriel wrote: Nick and Juilia, I formally request that The Fool be given a warning or some sort of reprimand for this obscenity-laced post as well as his repeated attacks over the last 6 weeks or more against John D. Giorgis. I would like to further request that the list be completely informed of what action you do or do not take regarding this. Nick and Julia, I think you should ignore Jon. He seems to think he has a right to control other people on this list, but you should not help him to achieve such control. I'm sorry, but I don't have your blase attitude when it comes to being abused by other people. I do not feel that the almighty word and The Fool's right to spew venom are more valuable than opening my mailbox to his consistent, unwarranted attacks of listmembers and cursing. I can't speak for the rest of the list, but I suspect I'm not the only one here who feels that way. We should expect that other members of our community be treated with respect. In my opinion, if we don't, this list won't ever grow and thrive and that would be a shame. If you do as Jon directs you to, then I formally request that Jon be given a warning for personally attacking Fool and trying to censor people on the list, Go for it. I'm quite interested to see whether Nick and Julia believe that by trying to keep a certain standard of civility alive I am actually harming the list. and if you do that then I also formally request an investigation into whether Jon Gabriel is his real name, and if we are going to start formally enforcing guidelines as strict rules, isn't there a guideline about not posting under aliases? :-D Oh, it's most definitely my name. Many list members already know this: Gabriel is my middle and not my last name. I have used it both professionally and privately as an online presence for many years. It's also now the name I'm using with my newly-minted S-Corp. I both answer to Jon Gabriel and have it printed as an alternate name on my passport. The exact phrase on the passport (I checked) is ALSO KNOWN AS: JON GABRIEL. Sorry, if you're going to look for a violation of the guiidelines you'll have to dig a little deeper. Both the US federal gov't and NY state gov't recognize this as a valid name for me. I don't use this name as a shield from which to launch attacks, either. A determined person could definitely track me down if they wanted to. I know exactly how they could, too. But this is an extra, justified defense for my family's safety. Last year an ex-brineller posted people's work and home addresses, phone numbers and email addresses on his site AND I recall that he threatened to do the same to me so that I could (among other things,) rot in hell and he could make my life a misery. The only thing that prevented him from doing so was his lack of knowledge of my last name. I have absolutely NO regrets for trying to keep myself and my family free from the apparently quite valid threat of real life attacks. By the way, that page was only taken down recently. It remained online for months. Anyway, feel free to dig for other guideline violations. I'm quite sure I've made them over the years. If you or anyone else has a problem with something I've done, go right ahead and let Julia and Nick know. I will face the consequences of my actions. That's part of what 'iaamoac' means to me. For The Fool: Since you seem to have forgotten it, I'm reposting the relevant parts of the Etiquette Guideline you're violating below. violating? One can violate a guideline? I guess we'll have to see. Jon _ One-click access to Hotmail from any Web page download MSN Toolbar now! http://clk.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200413ave/direct/01/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Request for Admin Action (Was: Re: Fascist Censorship spreadinglike Cancer)
On Sat, Mar 13, 2004 at 09:21:39AM -0500, Jon Gabriel wrote: I'm sorry, but I don't have your blase attitude when it comes to being abused by other people. If you're sorry, then stop your attempts to force your opinions on others. If you're not sorry about your intolerant attempts to abuse someone, then why write it? I do not feel that the almighty word and The Fool's right to spew venom are more valuable than opening my mailbox to his consistent, unwarranted attacks of listmembers and cursing. Aww, pooor Jonn. Can't figure out how to use the delete key and gets his itsy bitsy brainy-wainy all worked up about it. Aww. I can't speak for the rest of the list, but I suspect I'm not the only one here who feels that way. I suspect I'm not the only one who feels you are being a self-righteous, control-freak jerk. I also suspect there are people who think that all ___'s should be silenced, for hundreds of different _'s. So what? I don't use this name as a shield from which to launch attacks, either. Actually, that is exactly what you are doing. Attacking someone else and trying to force your opinions on him. And if you aren't hiding behind an alias (which you admit you use for defense), then why not launch your attack and sign the last name that you were born with? -- Erik Reuter http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Request for Admin Action (Was: Re: Fascist Censorship spreadinglike Cancer)
I do not Believe 'profanity' exists. And other people do. Why are your beliefs so much more important than anyone elses? What gives you the right to be discourteous and offensive on the list? Do you believe in the concept of IAAMOAC or are you just parroting Brin's philosophical musings to fit your own agenda? You have repeatedly shown you are ONLY interested in your OWN agenda, and have no real desire to participate here. You only reinforced that with your recent childishness. How old are you REALLY Fool? I may not be the most intelligent or prolific poster on this list; for that I bow to others. But at least I keep an open mind and TRY to subsume my own bias in the interest of considering all perspectives. And I try to structure arguments. You, so far, have shown no interest in this. Damon. = Damon Agretto [EMAIL PROTECTED] Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum. http://www.geocities.com/garrand.geo/index.html Now Building: __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam http://mail.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Request for Admin Action (Was: Re: Fascist Censorship spreadinglike Cancer)
He should have the right. Whether I think he should exercise it as often as he does is another matter. But he should have the right. Unfortunately, this is a PRIVATE list, and whether the Fool has the right to do or not is entirely up to the listowners. But two can play this game: We'll concede (for now, for argument's sake) that the Fool has a right to be onboxious, offensive, and flagrantly violate list rules. What, then, gives him the right to be immune to the consequences to his actions? A! I am so offended by that word. What gives you the right to use that word and get me all worked up? What is wrong with you? Why can't you show some respect? Unfortunately respect has to be earned in many cases. Damon. = Damon Agretto [EMAIL PROTECTED] Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum. http://www.geocities.com/garrand.geo/index.html Now Building: __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam http://mail.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Request for Admin Action (Was: Re: Fascist Censorship spreadinglike Cancer)
On Sat, Mar 13, 2004 at 10:46:48AM -0800, Damon Agretto wrote: But two can play this game: We'll concede (for now, for argument's sake) that the Fool has a right to be onboxious, offensive, and flagrantly violate list rules. I'm not aware of any list rules to be flagrantly violated. Unfortunately respect has to be earned in many cases. I'm not sure about the unfortunately, but otherwise I agree, yes, it does. -- Erik Reuter http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Request for Admin Action (Was: Re: Fascist Censorship spreadinglike Cancer)
From: Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Request for Admin Action (Was: Re: Fascist Censorship spreadinglike Cancer) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2004 07:57:17 -0500 Nick and Julia, I think you should ignore Jon. He seems to think he has a right to control other people on this list, but you should not help him to achieve such control. If you do as Jon directs you to, then I formally request that Jon be given a warning for personally attacking Fool and trying to censor people on the list, and if you do that then I also formally request an investigation into whether Jon Gabriel is his real name, and if we are going to start formally enforcing guidelines as strict rules, isn't there a guideline about not posting under aliases? He has a right to be offended by some words which he finds offensive, does he not? And it just so happens that certain words, deemed profanity, are frowned upon here. It doesn't matter that someone doesn't recognize the idea of profanity. That's simply a clever way to stymie people who do. As for Jon calling on Nick and/or Julia to actually DO something, well it's to be applauded. Why? Not because I'm offended by the use of profanity. I'm not. But I do find it offensive that someone would hide behind some half-ass excuse to use profanity, when we collectively agree not to. Play by the rules eh? Either that or get outta my sandbox...I'm sure people understand the allusion. One more thing Erik. How do you justify calling on Nick and Julia to ignore Jon? Being admins, aren't they the logical choice for him to make the request to? I don't think that Jon was going to ask my dog Rocky to do something about the current situation... -Travis _ MSN Premium helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-capage=byoa/premxAPID=1994DI=1034SU=http://hotmail.com/encaHL=Market_MSNIS_Taglines ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Request for Admin Action (Was: Re: Fascist Censorship spreadinglike Cancer)
On Sat, Mar 13, 2004 at 03:38:29PM -0330, Travis Edmunds wrote: And it just so happens that certain words, deemed profanity, are frowned upon here. It just so happens that they are not frowned upon here, also. It just so happens that they are strongly supported here, also. we collectively agree not to. No, WE do not. One more thing Erik. How do you justify calling on Nick and Julia to ignore Jon? Being admins, aren't they the logical choice for him to make the request to? Nope, they are not censors. They are ADMINISTRATORS. They keep the email flowing. In Nick's case, he also owns some of the equipment. But that doesn't obligate him to be a list censor. -- Erik Reuter http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Request for Admin Action (Was: Re: Fascist Censorship spreadinglike Cancer)
I'm not aware of any list rules to be flagrantly violated. Erik, go to the bottom of this message (and EVERY Bin-L message). Click on that link. Look under About Brin-L. Click on Ettiquete Guidelines. Go to the bottom where it says We further agree that: 3rd Clause. Also take not of the last clause. You too Fool. Damon. = Damon Agretto [EMAIL PROTECTED] Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum. http://www.geocities.com/garrand.geo/index.html Now Building: __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam http://mail.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Request for Admin Action (Was: Re: Fascist Censorship spreadinglike Cancer)
On Sat, Mar 13, 2004 at 11:22:56AM -0800, Damon Agretto wrote: Erik wrote: I'm not aware of any list rules to be flagrantly violated. Erik, go to the bottom of this message (and EVERY Bin-L message). Click on that link. Look under About Brin-L. Click on Ettiquete Guidelines. Go to the bottom where it says We further agree that: 3rd Clause. Also take not of the last clause. You too Fool. Damon, read what you wrote, they are guidelines, not rules. One does not flagrantly violate guidelines. I certainly never agreed to any hard and fast rules, and I certainly do not agree to never do anything that is mentioned in the guidelines. I only agree to something if it is specifically written down as a contract that I sign or type my name to. When I signed up for brin-l, I agreed to no such contract. -- Erik Reuter http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Request for Admin Action (Was: Re: Fascist Censorship spreadinglike Cancer)
Damon, read what you wrote, they are guidelines, not rules. One does not flagrantly violate guidelines. I certainly never agreed to any hard and fast rules, and I certainly do not agree to never do anything that is mentioned in the guidelines. I only agree to something if it is specifically written down as a contract that I sign or type my name to. When I signed up for brin-l, I agreed to no such contract. Actually, you did. It clearly states that WE AGREE. Also reread the last clause. The listowners have the right to enforce these guidelines. Damon. = Damon Agretto [EMAIL PROTECTED] Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum. http://www.geocities.com/garrand.geo/index.html Now Building: __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam http://mail.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Request for Admin Action (Was: Re: Fascist Censorship spreadinglike Cancer)
On Sat, Mar 13, 2004 at 11:36:29AM -0800, Damon Agretto wrote: Actually, you did. It clearly states that WE AGREE. Actually, I did NOT. -- Erik Reuter http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Request for Admin Action (Was: Re: Fascist Censorship spreadinglike Cancer)
Actually, you did. It clearly states that WE AGREE. Actually, I did NOT. Actually you did, Erik. Are you not using the service as of now? Have you in the past used the service? To what extent have you used the service? By using the service, you implicitly agree to obey the guidelines. If you have a cell phone, use it often, but never signed a contract, does this make you not liable for the bills or usage? Unfortunately the law says otherwise. Why should this be different, and more to the point, Why Erik do you feel special that you should be immune to the guidelines everyone else is held to? Damon. = Damon Agretto [EMAIL PROTECTED] Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum. http://www.geocities.com/garrand.geo/index.html Now Building: __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam http://mail.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Request for Admin Action (Was: Re: Fascist Censorship spreadinglike Cancer)
On Sat, Mar 13, 2004 at 11:51:42AM -0800, Damon Agretto wrote: Actually you did, Erik. Are you not using the service as of now? Have you in the past used the service? To what extent have you used the service? Okay, then pay up, Damon. http://erikreuter.net/damon.html -- Erik Reuter http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Request for Admin Action (Was: Re: Fascist Censorship spreadinglike Cancer)
Okay, then pay up, Damon. http://erikreuter.net/damon.html Erik you must have some issues. Such an agreement is not valid as YOU do not own Brin-L. If you can provide such ownership, make proof available to the list. Damon. = Damon Agretto [EMAIL PROTECTED] Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum. http://www.geocities.com/garrand.geo/index.html Now Building: __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam http://mail.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Request for Admin Action (Was: Re: Fascist Censorship spreadinglike Cancer)
On Sat, Mar 13, 2004, Damon Agretto wrote: Actually, you did. So now you want to control not only what I can write, but you also want to decide what I agreed to? What's next, do you want to take over where Saddam Hussein left off? Sheesh, and he says I have issues. Erik you must have some issues. Such an agreement is not valid Well, duh! YOU do not own Brin-L. If you can provide such ownership, make proof available to the list. That is irrelevant on whether or not you or I agreed to a contract. One does not legally enter a contract by sending an email. One enters into a contract by signing one's name to a contract that is clearly worded as such. Which I did not do. In fact, when that list was first written, I specifically objected to it. And I'm on record as doing so. Only a doofus would claim that I agreed to it. And such a doofus would certainly lose in court. -- Erik Reuter http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Request for Admin Action (Was: Re: Fascist Censorship spreadinglike Cancer)
That is irrelevant on whether or not you or I agreed to a contract. One does not legally enter a contract by sending an email. One enters into a contract by signing one's name to a contract that is clearly worded as such. Which I did not do. In fact, when that list was first written, I specifically objected to it. And I'm on record as doing so. Only a doofus would claim that I agreed to it. And such a doofus would certainly lose in court. Erik, it is NOT irrelevant. The contract is not agreed to by sending e-mail; the contract is agreed to by USAGE. You are using Brin-L resources, which have been provided for free. You do not need to sign anything to agree to a contract. Signing a document is only one form of entering into a contract. There are many others. Damon. = Damon Agretto [EMAIL PROTECTED] Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum. http://www.geocities.com/garrand.geo/index.html Now Building: __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - More reliable, more storage, less spam http://mail.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Request for Admin Action (Was: Re: Fascist Censorship spreadinglike Cancer)
On Sat, Mar 13, 2004 at 01:30:33PM -0800, Damon Agretto wrote: You do not need to sign anything to agree to a contract. For something like this, I do. And I did not agree. -- Erik Reuter http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Request for Admin Action (Was: Re: Fascist Censorship spreadinglike Cancer)
From: Jon Gabriel [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: The Fool [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Profanity is not welcome. I do not Believe 'profanity' exists. Your anonymity does not give you the right to spam this list with uncivilized behavior. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
