Re: The Doom That Came To N'Warlins - II Meets Gas Prices
From: Dave Land [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Sep 1, 2005, at 12:24 PM, Gautam Mukunda wrote: --- Dave Land [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: When threads collide... It occurred to me that the answer to the original question in the Gas Prices thread was looting, just being engaged in by corporations, and not individuals. I think that whatever punishment is meted out to individuals caught looting stores ought to be brought to bear upon corporations who engage in looting in the form of hyper-inflated gas prices. Because obeying the law and maintaining property rights is the same thing as stealing things at gun point. And clearly it's a good idea to make sure that there is no incentive whatsoever for corporations to prevent shortages and create stockpiles. It's always reassuring to know that no matter how brutally bad the mistakes we made in the past were (see price controls on gasoline in the 1970s)...there are people who want to do it all over again. Hmm. I don't recall saying that. I recall saying ... well, there it is, just above your paragraph: that if corporations engage in looting in the form of hyper-inflationary gas prices, they should be punished as thieves. I suspect that you have a strong filter through which you hear virtually everything I say, and it is not an especially good one. Dave Since when is fairness the same as centralized control? Land Dave, libertarians believe it's OK and GOOD when the Haves and the rich trample the the Have-Nots and the Poor. Basic Libertarianism 101. - How noble libertarianism, in its majestic equality, that both rich and poor are equally prohibited from peeing in the privately owned streets (without paying), sleeping under the privately owned bridges (without paying), and coercing bread from its rightful owners! --Anatole France Other than telling us how to live, think, marry, pray, vote, invest, educate our children and, now, die, I think the Republicans have done a fine job of getting government out of our personal lives. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: The Doom That Came To N'Warlins - II Meets Gas Prices
On Sep 2, 2005, at 12:36 PM, The Fool wrote: Dave Since when is fairness the same as centralized control? Land Dave, libertarians believe it's OK and GOOD when the Haves and the rich trample the the Have-Nots and the Poor. Basic Libertarianism 101. And one of the reasons I have always identified myself as a Liberal and never as a Libertarian. Libertarianism reduces to animalism too easily for my tastes. That and the whole gun thing -- every Libertarian I know, no matter how otherwise earth-motherly, seems to be also have a certain streak of gun-nuttiness. Dave ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: The Doom That Came To N'Warlins - II Meets Gas Prices
From: Dave Land [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Sep 2, 2005, at 12:36 PM, The Fool wrote: Dave Since when is fairness the same as centralized control? Land Dave, libertarians believe it's OK and GOOD when the Haves and the rich trample the the Have-Nots and the Poor. Basic Libertarianism 101. And one of the reasons I have always identified myself as a Liberal and never as a Libertarian. Libertarianism reduces to animalism too easily for my tastes. That and the whole gun thing -- every Libertarian I know, no matter how otherwise earth-motherly, seems to be also have a certain streak of gun-nuttiness. Libertarianism is anarchism in a might-makes-property-rights dress. New Orleans is the perfect Libertarian utopia right now. So ask yourself: Why aren't Libertarians Flocking to New Orleans, Or Afganistan? Sounds like they would fit in fine with the looters. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: The Doom That Came To N'Warlins - II Meets Gas Prices
On 9/2/05, The Fool [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Libertarianism is anarchism in a might-makes-property-rights dress. New Orleans is the perfect Libertarian utopia right now. So ask yourself: Why aren't Libertarians Flocking to New Orleans, Or Afganistan? Sounds like they would fit in fine with the looters. Hyperbolic, perhaps, but right on. Nick -- Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] Messages: 408-904-7198 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: The Doom That Came To N'Warlins - II Meets Gas Prices
Dave Land wrote: On Sep 2, 2005, at 12:36 PM, The Fool wrote: Dave Since when is fairness the same as centralized control? Land Dave, libertarians believe it's OK and GOOD when the Haves and the rich trample the the Have-Nots and the Poor. Basic Libertarianism 101. And one of the reasons I have always identified myself as a Liberal and never as a Libertarian. Libertarianism reduces to animalism too easily for my tastes. That and the whole gun thing -- every Libertarian I know, no matter how otherwise earth-motherly, seems to be also have a certain streak of gun-nuttiness. Well, they'd fit right in in our neighborhood. Dan was looked at very strangely at a meeting where it came up that he was the only one that didn't own a gun, but would use a sword to protect his home family. :) (And they've gotta be well into the house before we really use that sword.) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: The Doom That Came To N'Warlins - II Meets Gas Prices
On Sep 2, 2005, at 2:00 PM, Dave Land wrote: That and the whole gun thing -- every Libertarian I know, no matter how otherwise earth-motherly, seems to be also have a certain streak of gun-nuttiness. You're half right. It's not just guns. -- Warren Ockrassa, Publisher/Editor, nightwares Books http://books.nightwares.com/ Current work in progress The Seven-Year Mirror http://www.nightwares.com/books/ockrassa/Flat_Out.pdf ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: The Doom That Came To N'Warlins - II Meets Gas Prices
At 05:10 PM Friday 9/2/2005, Julia Thompson wrote: Dan was looked at very strangely at a meeting where it came up that he was the only one that didn't own a gun, but would use a sword to protect his home family. :) (And they've gotta be well into the house before we really use that sword.) 'Cuz a twenty-foot-long sword is awkward to swing, hanging in a scabbard on your belt makes you walk funny . . . -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
The Doom That Came To N'Warlins - II Meets Gas Prices
When threads collide... It occurred to me that the answer to the original question in the Gas Prices thread was looting, just being engaged in by corporations, and not individuals. I think that whatever punishment is meted out to individuals caught looting stores ought to be brought to bear upon corporations who engage in looting in the form of hyper-inflated gas prices. Dave ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: The Doom That Came To N'Warlins - II Meets Gas Prices
Dave Land wrote: When threads collide... It occurred to me that the answer to the original question in the Gas Prices thread was looting, just being engaged in by corporations, and not individuals. I think that whatever punishment is meted out to individuals caught looting stores ought to be brought to bear upon corporations who engage in looting in the form of hyper-inflated gas prices. If the gas companies post profits this quarter, there is going to be an awful lot of grumbling, and I'm hoping some legal action, as well. (They've posted great profits the past 2 quarters, is my understanding.) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: The Doom That Came To N'Warlins - II Meets Gas Prices
--- Dave Land [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: When threads collide... It occurred to me that the answer to the original question in the Gas Prices thread was looting, just being engaged in by corporations, and not individuals. I think that whatever punishment is meted out to individuals caught looting stores ought to be brought to bear upon corporations who engage in looting in the form of hyper-inflated gas prices. Dave Because obeying the law and maintaining property rights is the same thing as stealing things at gun point. And clearly it's a good idea to make sure that there is no incentive whatsoever for corporations to prevent shortages and create stockpiles. It's always reassuring to know that no matter how brutally bad the mistakes we made in the past were (see price controls on gasoline in the 1970s)...there are people who want to do it all over again. Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] Freedom is not free http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: The Doom That Came To N'Warlins - II Meets Gas Prices
On Sep 1, 2005, at 12:24 PM, Gautam Mukunda wrote: --- Dave Land [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: When threads collide... It occurred to me that the answer to the original question in the Gas Prices thread was looting, just being engaged in by corporations, and not individuals. I think that whatever punishment is meted out to individuals caught looting stores ought to be brought to bear upon corporations who engage in looting in the form of hyper-inflated gas prices. Because obeying the law and maintaining property rights is the same thing as stealing things at gun point. And clearly it's a good idea to make sure that there is no incentive whatsoever for corporations to prevent shortages and create stockpiles. It's always reassuring to know that no matter how brutally bad the mistakes we made in the past were (see price controls on gasoline in the 1970s)...there are people who want to do it all over again. Hmm. I don't recall saying that. I recall saying ... well, there it is, just above your paragraph: that if corporations engage in looting in the form of hyper-inflationary gas prices, they should be punished as thieves. I suspect that you have a strong filter through which you hear virtually everything I say, and it is not an especially good one. Dave Since when is fairness the same as centralized control? Land ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: The Doom That Came To N'Warlins - II Meets Gas Prices
--- Dave Land [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sep 1, 2005, at 12:24 PM, Gautam Mukunda wrote: --- Dave Land [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: When threads collide... It occurred to me that the answer to the original question in the Gas Prices thread was looting, just being engaged in by corporations, and not individuals. I think that whatever punishment is meted out to individuals caught looting stores ought to be brought to bear upon corporations who engage in looting in the form of hyper-inflated gas prices. Because obeying the law and maintaining property rights is the same thing as stealing things at gun point. And clearly it's a good idea to make sure that there is no incentive whatsoever for corporations to prevent shortages and create stockpiles. It's always reassuring to know that no matter how brutally bad the mistakes we made in the past were (see price controls on gasoline in the 1970s)...there are people who want to do it all over again. Sorry Dave - that came out a lot more acerbic than I meant it to be. Hmm. I don't recall saying that. I recall saying ... well, there it is, just above your paragraph: that if corporations engage in looting in the form of hyper-inflationary gas prices, they should be punished as thieves. But this isn't looting. The gasoline is _their property_. They paid for it fair and square. In doing so they took a risk - the price of gasoline could also have dropped suddenly. In this case, they will be rewarded for that risk, but it doesn't have to happen that way,and somehow I don't think you'd be calling for them to be bailed out if it went the other way. They can sell it (or not sell it) for whatever price they choose. They have competitors who are also trying to sell things - and presumably they will use lower prices as their primary marketing tool, as this is, after all, the one they already use. You cannot, by definition, loot what you already own. Dave Since when is fairness the same as centralized control? Land Well, when you get to define fairness, it does appear to be the same thing as centralized control, yes. In this case you want whatever punishment is brought to bear upon the looters - that is, people who are stealing - to be brought upon companies who are obeying the law. How is that _different_ from centralized control, exactly? Fairness, it seems to me, involves asking people to obey the law. There is no part of that in imposing price controls on a highly competitive market. Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] Freedom is not free http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: The Doom That Came To N'Warlins - II Meets Gas Prices
- Original Message - From: Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Thursday, September 01, 2005 2:24 PM Subject: Re: The Doom That Came To N'Warlins - II Meets Gas Prices --- Dave Land [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: When threads collide... It occurred to me that the answer to the original question in the Gas Prices thread was looting, just being engaged in by corporations, and not individuals. I think that whatever punishment is meted out to individuals caught looting stores ought to be brought to bear upon corporations who engage in looting in the form of hyper-inflated gas prices. Dave Because obeying the law and maintaining property rights is the same thing as stealing things at gun point. But, there are laws against hyperinflation of prices after disasters. Heck, they exist is Houston, where zoning is considered part of the planned Communist takeover. :-) After Alicia, a much smaller hurricane, people were charged with price gauging for charging as much as 5x to 10x the previous going rate for tree clearing, etc. People who charged higher prices that were consistant with the reasonable and customary overtime rates (say 1.5x to 2x) were not subject to prosecution. And clearly it's a good idea to make sure that there is no incentive whatsoever for corporations to prevent shortages and create stockpiles. It's always reassuring to know that no matter how brutally bad the mistakes we made in the past were (see price controls on gasoline in the 1970s)...there are people who want to do it all over again. But, I think we can discern between guarding against price gauging and trying to wrestle the market into an unnatural position with wage and price controls. Let me give an example. The spot price for wholesale gasoline went up about $0.40 to roughly $2.25/gal. That's just market forces at work, and government intervention to control the price would be counterproductive. If someone is selling retail gas for a $5.50, it has little or nothing to do with the wholesale price rise. It has a lot to do with preying on the fears of people. The price gauging laws that we have in place address the latter, not the former. So, if someone is breaking those laws, they are not just lawfully executing their property rights. Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: The Doom That Came To N'Warlins - II Meets Gas Prices
On 9/1/05, Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: centralized control, exactly? Fairness, it seems to me, involves asking people to obey the law. There is no part of that in imposing price controls on a highly competitive market. What kind of society would we have if Is it legal? were the final test of fairness or any other form of morality? There is all sorts of behavior that is legal but unfair or immoral, if only because law is imperfect. As for pricing, certainly our understanding of economics, the dismal science, is imperfect... so how could the law possibly reflect fairness? Why would we ever need to change our laws or create new ones? Conversely, there are illegal acts that are fair and moral. Surely you can agree with these ideas? Neither the law nor the marketplace is going to be my final arbiter of fairness. Nick -- Nick Arnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] Messages: 408-904-7198 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
