Re: [BVARC] Solar effect

2024-01-05 Thread David Holden via BVARC 
Space weather is a complicated subject. Solar flares emit both photons and protons. The photons are part of the electromagnetic radiation which reaches earth at the speed of light. The protons ejected with or by the flare are mass at very high speeds and can reach earth in as little as 30 minutes. Flares are often accompanied by CME’s which, as the name suggests, are mass ejections and reaches earth typically in a day or two. Solar storms are the high speed protons. CME’s also disrupt radio. There is enough information on space weather online to make almost anyone’s eyes glaze over if you want more. - David WJ9O On Jan 5, 2024, at 11:15 AM, Mike Knerr via BVARC  wrote:I understood that a coronal mass ejection released protons, not photons. These also bring high electromagnetic fields with them.I understood the electromagnetic fields are causing the problems. Just a thought. Mike Knerr KI5UBL 73On Fri, Jan 5, 2024, 10:03 AM Stephen Flowers via BVARC  wrote:Richard,Good morning and Good question.  The way I understand it, solar flares emit a large amount of photons at various frequencies.  If these photons are sufficiently energetic, then they will pass a large portion of the ionosphere and impact what we refer to as the D layer.  Note that the D layer is a daytime ionospheric layer that according to some models in the literature is made up of NO+, NO+(H2O)n, H+(H2O)n, CO3−, and O3− These species readily combine with free electrons that increase in numbers due to the flares.  This in turn results in “less refraction" of E waves that we as amateurs need to bounce our signals off of to communicate.  In a nutshell, D layer constituents don’t refract as much and this is interpreted as “D layer absorption”.  If you look at this URL you can playback a movie of the latest D layer absorption measurements.  During a solar storm you’ll see the bar graph in the right hand corner increases across multiple frequencies.Note that in a solar flare event the lower frequencies are preferentially impacted.Of course other layers in the ionosphere are also affected by solar flares in ˜8 minutes of emission and CMEs hit us w/a delayed impact of ˜1 day or so; however, you may be on to something when you say that the lower frequencies suffer a bigger impact.  In that case, you may be right in that the higher frequencies, 20m and higher, may be the way to go for Ham radio ops during solar storms.Thank you for bringing up this topic!73,Stephen (W2WF)On Jan 5, 2024, at 9:03 AM, David Holden via BVARC  wrote:A strong solar storm can cause a complete blackout of HF communication including the higher frequency bands. I was in a QSO a year or so ago and it just dropped as a solar storm hit. The noise floor dropped to zero as not even noise could propagate through the highly energized atmosphere. Lesser solar storms can increase noise particularly on the lower bands so 80 might be unusable while 20 might just be noisy. David WJ9O On Jan 4, 2024, at 10:25 PM, Richard Bonica via BVARC  wrote:To all,Tell me if I am wrong on this. During these solar storms, it is my understanding to use the higher frequency rather than lower? If so, is 20 and 40m bands a good choice?Thank you in advanceRichardKG5YCU Brazos Valley Amateur Radio ClubBVARC mailing listBVARC@bvarc.orghttp://mail.bvarc.org/mailman/listinfo/bvarc_bvarc.orgPublicly available archives are available here: https://www.mail-archive.com/bvarc@bvarc.org/Brazos Valley Amateur Radio ClubBVARC mailing listBVARC@bvarc.orghttp://mail.bvarc.org/mailman/listinfo/bvarc_bvarc.orgPublicly available archives are available here: https://www.mail-archive.com/bvarc@bvarc.org/ 
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Re: [BVARC] Solar effect

2024-01-05 Thread Stephen Flowers via BVARC 
Hey Mike,
Good afternoon.  You are correct.  CMEs are composed of massive particles, e.g. 
protons, electrons, etc.  Solar flares are photons.  Since photons travel at c 
they get here in ˜8.2 minutes, regardless of frequency.  Matter particles 
travel sub-light and so, depending on their mass, ejection energy, & angle to 
the earth (curved trajectory) take ˜20 to ˜48 hours or so to get here. 

Also correct regarding charged particles bringing E fields with them.  The 
CME particles create B fields due to their motion  since they have a net 
electrical charge. (Del x B ˜ J + Edot).  What’s interesting is that that the 
orientation of the B fields in the particles couple well or not so well to our 
ionosphere and depending on that create strong or weak auroras.

BTW, this info is new and changing since it’s an area of research.  Every new 
probe sent to the sun deepens our understanding of the phenomena going on in 
the sun & how it affects us.  Or even better, comes up with new solar physics.

Interesting topic.

73,
Stephen (W2WF)


> On Jan 5, 2024, at 11:44 AM, Gary Sitton via BVARC  wrote:
> 
> Mike, you're right. It's protons or hydrogen ions in the large mass ejections.
> There are some photons both ionizing (x-rays and gamma rays) and visible,
> but mostly hydrogen ions.
> 
> Gary K5AMH
> 
> On 1/5/2024 11:15 AM, Mike Knerr via BVARC wrote:
>> I understood that a coronal mass ejection released protons, not photons. 
>> These also bring high electromagnetic fields with them.
>> I understood the electromagnetic fields are causing the problems. 
>> Just a thought. 
>> Mike Knerr KI5UBL 
>> 73
>> 
>> On Fri, Jan 5, 2024, 10:03 AM Stephen Flowers via BVARC > > wrote:
>>> Richard,
>>> Good morning and Good question.  The way I understand it, solar flares emit 
>>> a large amount of photons at various frequencies.  If these photons are 
>>> sufficiently energetic, then they will pass a large portion of the 
>>> ionosphere and impact what we refer to as the D layer.  Note that the D 
>>> layer is a daytime ionospheric layer that according to some models in the 
>>> literature is made up of NO+, NO+(H2O)n, H+(H2O)n, CO3−, and O3− 
>>> 
>>> These species readily combine with free electrons that increase in numbers 
>>> due to the flares.  This in turn results in “less refraction" of E waves 
>>> that we as amateurs need to bounce our signals off of to communicate.  In a 
>>> nutshell, D layer constituents don’t refract as much and this is 
>>> interpreted as “D layer absorption”.  If you look at this 
>>>  
>>> URL you can playback a movie of the latest D layer absorption measurements. 
>>>  During a solar storm you’ll see the bar graph in the right hand corner 
>>> increases across multiple frequencies.
>>> 
>>> Note that in a solar flare event the lower frequencies are preferentially 
>>> impacted.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Of course other layers in the ionosphere are also affected by solar flares 
>>> in ˜8 minutes of emission and CMEs hit us w/a delayed impact of ˜1 day or 
>>> so; however, you may be on to something when you say that the lower 
>>> frequencies suffer a bigger impact.  In that case, you may be right in that 
>>> the higher frequencies, 20m and higher, may be the way to go for Ham radio 
>>> ops during solar storms.
>>> 
>>> Thank you for bringing up this topic!
>>> 
>>> 73,
>>> Stephen (W2WF)
>>> 
>>> 
 On Jan 5, 2024, at 9:03 AM, David Holden via BVARC >>> > wrote:
 
 A strong solar storm can cause a complete blackout of HF communication 
 including the higher frequency bands. I was in a QSO a year or so ago and 
 it just dropped as a solar storm hit. The noise floor dropped to zero as 
 not even noise could propagate through the highly energized atmosphere. 
 
 Lesser solar storms can increase noise particularly on the lower bands so 
 80 might be unusable while 20 might just be noisy. 
 
 David WJ9O 
 
 
> On Jan 4, 2024, at 10:25 PM, Richard Bonica via BVARC  > wrote:
> 
> 
> To all,
> Tell me if I am wrong on this. During these solar storms, it is my 
> understanding to use the higher frequency rather than lower? If so, is 20 
> and 40m bands a good choice?
> Thank you in advance
> Richard
> KG5YCU 
> 
> Brazos Valley Amateur Radio Club
> 
> BVARC mailing list
> BVARC@bvarc.org 
> http://mail.bvarc.org/mailman/listinfo/bvarc_bvarc.org
> Publicly available archives are available here: 
> https://www.mail-archive.com/bvarc@bvarc.org/
 
 
 
 Brazos Valley Amateur Radio Club
 
 BVARC mailing list
 BVARC@bvarc.org

Re: [BVARC] Solar effect

2024-01-05 Thread Gary Sitton via BVARC 
Mike, you're right. It's protons or hydrogen ions in the large mass 
ejections.

There are some photons both ionizing (x-rays and gamma rays) and visible,
but mostly hydrogen ions.

Gary K5AMH

On 1/5/2024 11:15 AM, Mike Knerr via BVARC wrote:
I understood that a coronal mass ejection released protons, not 
photons. These also bring high electromagnetic fields with them.

I understood the electromagnetic fields are causing the problems.
Just a thought.
Mike Knerr KI5UBL
73

On Fri, Jan 5, 2024, 10:03 AM Stephen Flowers via BVARC 
 wrote:


Richard,
Good morning and Good question.  The way I understand it, solar
flares emit a large amount of photons at various frequencies.  If
these photons are sufficiently energetic, then they will pass a
large portion of the ionosphere and impact what we refer to as the
D layer.  Note that the D layer is a daytime ionospheric layer
that according to some models in the literature is made up of NO^+
, NO^+ (H_2 O)_n , H^+ (H_2 O)_n , CO_3 ^− , and O_3 ^−

These species readily combine with free electrons that increase in
numbers due to the flares.  This in turn results in “less
refraction" of E waves that we as amateurs need to bounce our
signals off of to communicate.  In a nutshell, D layer
constituents don’t refract as much and this is interpreted as “D
layer absorption”.  If you look at this
 
URL
you can playback a movie of the latest D layer absorption
measurements.  During a solar storm you’ll see the bar graph in
the right hand corner increases across multiple frequencies.

Note that in a solar flare event the lower frequencies are
*/preferentially/* impacted.

Screenshot 2024-01-05 at 9.48.35 AM.png

Of course other layers in the ionosphere are also affected by
solar flares in ˜8 minutes of emission and CMEs hit us w/a delayed
impact of ˜1 day or so; however, you may be on to something when
you say that the lower frequencies suffer a bigger impact.  In
that case, you may be right in that the higher frequencies, 20m
and higher, may be the way to go for Ham radio ops during solar
storms.

Thank you for bringing up this topic!

73,
Stephen (W2WF)



On Jan 5, 2024, at 9:03 AM, David Holden via BVARC
 wrote:

A strong solar storm can cause a complete blackout of HF
communication including the higher frequency bands. I was in a
QSO a year or so ago and it just dropped as a solar storm hit.
The noise floor dropped to zero as not even noise could propagate
through the highly energized atmosphere.

Lesser solar storms can increase noise particularly on the lower
bands so 80 might be unusable while 20 might just be noisy.

David WJ9O



On Jan 4, 2024, at 10:25 PM, Richard Bonica via BVARC
 wrote:


To all,
Tell me if I am wrong on this. During these solar storms, it is
my understanding to use the higher frequency rather than lower?
If so, is 20 and 40m bands a good choice?
Thank you in advance
Richard
KG5YCU

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--
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gasit...@comcast.net
SDR/DSP Consultant,
"Have FFTs, Will Travel."
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Re: [BVARC] Solar effect

2024-01-05 Thread David Holden via BVARC 
A strong solar storm can cause a complete blackout of HF communication 
including the higher frequency bands. I was in a QSO a year or so ago and it 
just dropped as a solar storm hit. The noise floor dropped to zero as not even 
noise could propagate through the highly energized atmosphere. 

Lesser solar storms can increase noise particularly on the lower bands so 80 
might be unusable while 20 might just be noisy. 

David WJ9O 


> On Jan 4, 2024, at 10:25 PM, Richard Bonica via BVARC  wrote:
> 
> 
> To all,
> Tell me if I am wrong on this. During these solar storms, it is my 
> understanding to use the higher frequency rather than lower? If so, is 20 and 
> 40m bands a good choice?
> Thank you in advance
> Richard
> KG5YCU 
> 
> Brazos Valley Amateur Radio Club
> 
> BVARC mailing list
> BVARC@bvarc.org
> http://mail.bvarc.org/mailman/listinfo/bvarc_bvarc.org
> Publicly available archives are available here: 
> https://www.mail-archive.com/bvarc@bvarc.org/



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