Re: [Callers] Circle & pass through as the last move of a dance

[Maia McCormick]

I agree that the caller trying to teach too much verbally gets pointless
very quickly. There are definitely pointers that callers can give that will
help dancers a bunch, but they should be given quickly and succinctly,
and/or shown through demonstration ("try the allemande the angry,
competitive way! Now try a noodle-arm allemande. Okay, now try it a way
that feels better to both of you.") It's distressingly easy for a caller to
make him/herself tune-out-able.

Along the lines of what Jonathan said, I'd be wary of even bringing up
"beats" to dancers at all. A lot of dancers aren't necessarily even
familiar with that terminology, or at least don't think of dancing in terms
of beats/phrase length, so to make a passing mention to the number of beats
something takes may be MORE confusing than not mentioning it all. Instead,
I would go with something like "the circle left is faster than you think!"
or "make sure you pass through in time to balance your next neighbor!" (and
then be really precise with calling the balance so it lines up directly
with the big beat--dancers on the whole tend to FEEL the beat 10x better
than they intellectually understand it).


On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 6:09 PM, Greg McKenzie  wrote:

> Donna wrote:
>
> > Personally I prefer that the "regular dancers" do not verbally "teach"
> the
> > new dancers.
> >
>
> I agree wholeheartedly and would not suggest that the regulars speak at all
> during a walk-through.
>
> The only exception to that might be when a caller is doing such a poor job
> that confusion is spreading wildly through the hall.  Sometimes it is
> necessary to clarify something when the caller makes a serious error and
> does not realize it.  Otherwise some dancers may think that the confusion
> is *their *fault.  That would be bad.
>
> The vast majority of the teaching that takes place in the dance hall is
> non-verbal.  As the only person in the hall with a microphone it is very
> important that the caller realize that fact.  Talking on mike is often much
> more disruptive than talking in the dance line.
>
> - Greg McKenzie
> West Coast, USA
> ___
> Callers mailing list
> call...@sharedweight.net
> http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
>

Re: [Callers] Circle & pass through as the last move of a dance

[Greg McKenzie]

Donna wrote:

> Personally I prefer that the "regular dancers" do not verbally "teach" the
> new dancers.
>

I agree wholeheartedly and would not suggest that the regulars speak at all
during a walk-through.

The only exception to that might be when a caller is doing such a poor job
that confusion is spreading wildly through the hall.  Sometimes it is
necessary to clarify something when the caller makes a serious error and
does not realize it.  Otherwise some dancers may think that the confusion
is *their *fault.  That would be bad.

The vast majority of the teaching that takes place in the dance hall is
non-verbal.  As the only person in the hall with a microphone it is very
important that the caller realize that fact.  Talking on mike is often much
more disruptive than talking in the dance line.

- Greg McKenzie
West Coast, USA

Re: [Callers] Circle & pass through as the last move of a dance

[Greg McKenzie]

Dave wrote:

> Logistically, I think Greg's approach is difficult to make work.  There's
> always a new move happening after the pass through, so in effect, you'll be
> calling four beats of "pass through, something something," usually "balance
> here" or whatnot.  Because there's no break between the instruction "pass
> through" and the instruction that follows it, I don't think dancers
> generally realize from that phrasing that the pass through is intended to
> occur after exactly six beats of the circle.
>

You are absolutely correct Dave!  Structuring calls precisely is often very
difficult and I sometimes simply drop a dance because the prompts become
too jumbled when actually given at the correct beat.  I posted to this
thread because I was, coincidentally, working on a dance called Kiss the
Bride by Jeffery Spero.

Kiss the Bride is particularly difficult because it uses the circle 3/4,
pass through transition at the end and the last call I need to fit in is
"dosido" which takes two beats.  Because it is where the progression takes
place I also want to say "With the NEXT" to make that clear as well.  On my
current dance card I "solved" the problem by giving the "Pass Through" call
early.  That is unacceptable to me and I was trying to come up with a good
way to make it work using calls that are precisely in time with the
phrasing.

My current card reads:

B2:  _ _ _ _ [Hands Four and] Circle RIGHT!
   _ [Three Places], Pass Through, with the NEXT Dosido

To fix the timing I'm considering something like:

B2:  _ _ _ _ [Hands Four and] Circle RIGHT!
   _ _ [Three Places], Pass Through, NEXT Dosido

...But that's a lot of words to cram in at the very end of the dance
phrase.  If the dance started with "Balance and swing" for example, I could
fit in the word "Balance" which only takes one beat.

I'm thinking of just dropping the dance from my repertoire.

Thanks for reading.

Greg McKenzie
West Coast, USA

Re: [Callers] Circle & pass through as the last move of a dance

[Jonathan Sivier]

On 2/11/2014 4:11 PM, Dave Casserly wrote:

I find experienced dancers often take longer than 6 beats to circle three
places.  Regardless of whether callers should be teaching to beginners
during a walkthrough, it can help experienced dancers to hear exactly how
many counts a move should take in a particular dance.  It's something a lot
of ECD callers do, but you don't see it much in contra.


   This may be a specific instance of something I have noticed from 
time to time.  I will be talking to a person who would undoubtedly 
describe themselves as an experienced dancer, one who has been doing 
contra dance for many years.  I will say something in passing about the 
length, in beats, of a given figure or about the 64 beat length of a 
contra dance and they will look surprised, because it has never occurred 
to them that figures have a specific length, or that all contra dances 
are the same length, or that the music and dance go together.  This 
sometimes surprises me as well, in the case of people I know for certain 
have been present many times when these sort of things were mentioned by 
the caller.  So it may be that callers are telling the dancers the 
number of beats they have for a given figure, I know that I do this 
fairly often, but the dancers fail to absorb the information for one 
reason or another.


Jonathan
-
Jonathan Sivier
Caller of Contra, English and Early American Dances
jsivier AT illinois DOT edu
Dance Page: http://www.sivier.me/dance_leader.html
-
Q: How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?
A: It depends on what dance you call!

Re: [Callers] Circle & pass through as the last move of a dance

[Donna Hunt]

Personally I prefer that the "regular dancers" do not verbally "teach" the new 
dancers.  Contrary to what you've described I find that 


what I have learned to say succinctly and clearly during my years of calling 


will take a "regular dancer" 2 or 3x the amount of time to say and by that time 
the new dancer is late for the next move 


AND has learned not to listen to the caller.   





Please consider that some "regular dancers" who are dancing with beginners are 
trying to impress them with their knowledge rather than assisting 


the new dancers to learn quickly and correctly.





I agree that taking "a second to mention" (as John suggested) tricky timing or 
the execution of a move "Ladies Chain: Ladies give right hands pull by 


give your left to the gent for  a courtesy turn" takes no more time to explain 
than it takes the dancers to walk it through.  


Of course this much detail is for the first and possibly second Ladies Chain of 
the evening and NOT every time.


I prefer that the "regulars" teach by example and "show" by action as I explain 
with words.





I do not endorse "A caller who jabbers constantly" (as you wrote)... but to 
"drip-feed good ideas" (as John suggested)


throughout the evening, taking a few seconds here and a few seconds, I believe, 
will help create a more cohesive dance experience 


for all on the floor.


 

Donna Hunt

 

 

-Original Message-
From: Greg McKenzie 
To: Caller's discussion list 
Sent: Tue, Feb 11, 2014 4:56 pm
Subject: Re: [Callers] Circle & pass through as the last move of a dance


John wrote:

Read also mentioned "avoidance of teaching".
>
> But we ARE teachers.  You may CALL it a walk-through, but what you are
> actually doing is TEACHING the dance.  And if the dance will work better if
> you point out some key items then go head and point them out, i.e. teach!
>

I know that many of us love teaching.  In fact it seems to be one reason
many take up calling in the first place.  But teaching from the mike at an
open, public contra dance can be very counterproductive...particularly with
regard to your efforts to integrate first-timers into the fun.

You love to teach.  But so do most of the regular dancers.  A big part of
the fun of partnering with newcomers is being able to guide them through
the dance and share your passion for this wonderful dance form.  While the
caller is teaching verbally it is almost impossible for the regulars to
enjoy their own "teaching" role.  If you really want the regulars to
partner with first-timers one of the key "tricks" is to make sure the
regulars will have time to take the lead and "teach" their partner during
the walk through.

This is what makes partnering with regulars fun,  And that is why I try to
keep my prompts to an absolute minimum during the walk-through.

A caller who jabbers constantly during the walk-through can transform the
joy of a collaborative learning experience into a dreadful chore as the
regulars are required to stand by silently while the caller *explains *a
move that they could *show *their partner in less time than it would take
the caller to say the *name *of the move.

And later the caller will complain that it is so hard to get the regulars
to partner with first-timers.

Instead of "explaining" that a circle takes only "6 counts" I would gently
suggest that callers consider simply giving the prompt "pass through" so
that it ends precisely two counts before the end of the phrase.

That way you can "say it all" with only two words and the dancers get to
keep moving in time with the live music.  Make it fun!

Just a thought.

Greg McKenzie
West Coast, USA
___
Callers mailing list
call...@sharedweight.net
http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers

 

Re: [Callers] Circle & pass through as the last move of a dance

[Dave Casserly]

Logistically, I think Greg's approach is difficult to make work.  There's
always a new move happening after the pass through, so in effect, you'll be
calling four beats of "pass through, something something," usually "balance
here" or whatnot.  Because there's no break between the instruction "pass
through" and the instruction that follows it, I don't think dancers
generally realize from that phrasing that the pass through is intended to
occur after exactly six beats of the circle.

I find experienced dancers often take longer than 6 beats to circle three
places.  Regardless of whether callers should be teaching to beginners
during a walkthrough, it can help experienced dancers to hear exactly how
many counts a move should take in a particular dance.  It's something a lot
of ECD callers do, but you don't see it much in contra.

-Dave


On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 4:56 PM, Greg McKenzie  wrote:
>
> Instead of "explaining" that a circle takes only "6 counts" I would gently
> suggest that callers consider simply giving the prompt "pass through" so
> that it ends precisely two counts before the end of the phrase.
>
> That way you can "say it all" with only two words and the dancers get to
> keep moving in time with the live music.  Make it fun!
>
> Just a thought.
>
> Greg McKenzie
> West Coast, USA
> ___
> Callers mailing list
> call...@sharedweight.net
> http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
>



-- 
David Casserly
(cell) 781 258-2761

Re: [Callers] Circle & pass through as the last move of a dance

[Greg McKenzie]

John wrote:

Read also mentioned "avoidance of teaching".
>
> But we ARE teachers.  You may CALL it a walk-through, but what you are
> actually doing is TEACHING the dance.  And if the dance will work better if
> you point out some key items then go head and point them out, i.e. teach!
>

I know that many of us love teaching.  In fact it seems to be one reason
many take up calling in the first place.  But teaching from the mike at an
open, public contra dance can be very counterproductive...particularly with
regard to your efforts to integrate first-timers into the fun.

You love to teach.  But so do most of the regular dancers.  A big part of
the fun of partnering with newcomers is being able to guide them through
the dance and share your passion for this wonderful dance form.  While the
caller is teaching verbally it is almost impossible for the regulars to
enjoy their own "teaching" role.  If you really want the regulars to
partner with first-timers one of the key "tricks" is to make sure the
regulars will have time to take the lead and "teach" their partner during
the walk through.

This is what makes partnering with regulars fun,  And that is why I try to
keep my prompts to an absolute minimum during the walk-through.

A caller who jabbers constantly during the walk-through can transform the
joy of a collaborative learning experience into a dreadful chore as the
regulars are required to stand by silently while the caller *explains *a
move that they could *show *their partner in less time than it would take
the caller to say the *name *of the move.

And later the caller will complain that it is so hard to get the regulars
to partner with first-timers.

Instead of "explaining" that a circle takes only "6 counts" I would gently
suggest that callers consider simply giving the prompt "pass through" so
that it ends precisely two counts before the end of the phrase.

That way you can "say it all" with only two words and the dancers get to
keep moving in time with the live music.  Make it fun!

Just a thought.

Greg McKenzie
West Coast, USA

Re: [Callers] Circle & pass through as the last move of a dance

[James Saxe]

our last go-round on "Circle Left 3/4 (6 beats); pass through (2)"
was in June of last year.  You can find the messages (including
my own brilliant insights on the subject) in the archive starting
at

http://www.sharedweight.net/pipermail/callers/2013-June/date.html#6252

(There are earlier messages with the subject line "Circle left 3/4"
remarking on the frequent occurrence of that figure and requesting or
supplying dances that don't include it.  The discussion about timing
starts at the point I've indicated above, with a message by Read Weaver
dated Thu Jun 6 08:47:53 EDT 2013.)

--Jim

Re: [Callers] Circle & pass through as the last move of a dance

[John Sweeney]

Actually: " Circle 3/4 & pass through as ANY move of a dance" I think.

Yes, lots of excellent callers stress that circle 3/4 is six beats. I wish
more callers would do it.

Read also mentioned "avoidance of teaching".

But we ARE teachers.  You may CALL it a walk-through, but what you are
actually doing is TEACHING the dance.  And if the dance will work better if
you point out some key items then go head and point them out, i.e. teach!

In fact there are LOTS of moves that are really 6+2:
Down the Hall in Lines of Four (6) Turn Alone (2).
Swing (6) open out (with a twirl maybe) for the next move (2)
Star/Circle Left (6) turn to prepare to go back the other way (2)

These are all things that cause dancers to be late because they do an eight
beat move and then spend the first part of the next phrase preparing for the
next move. I suspect it might help a lot if we mentioned the 6/2 concept
more when calling/teaching!

Other examples that would benefit from a few key phrases from the caller
(these are all from recent dances attended by hundreds of "experienced"
dancers):

Down the Hall in Lines of Four (4) California Twirl (4) - it's amazing how
many dancers think they can do California Twirl in one beat and end up
making lines crash - callers could just mention that California Twirl takes
longer than Turn Alone so start around beat 5.  (E.g Balance the Ring (4)
California Twirl (4))

Men Allemande Left 1 & 1/2 - please, please, please tell them that it is
dancing and not arm-wrestling - that if their arm moves closer to their body
then they LOSE! :-)  It is so frustrating having to fight (which I won't do
any more after two shoulder operations) or accept that you aren't going to
get around easily and that you aren't going to be able to spin out because
it is too late and your arm has been forced into an awkward position.

Swings where your partner hangs, grips, clamps, leans or otherwise prevents
a wonderful experience - I wish callers would mention more (even to the most
"experienced" dancers) that it is a loving embrace, a gentle counterbalance
and relaxing will make the experience so much better.

It only takes a second to mention these and similar elements during a
walk-through. If we all drip-feed good ideas then some of the dancers will
try them out and enjoy them.

Yes, we should teach! :-)

Happy dancing,
John

John Sweeney, Dancer, England j...@modernjive.com 01233 625 362
http://www.contrafusion.co.uk for Dancing in Kent

Re: [Callers] Calling weddings and private parties

[Donna Hunt]

 Depending on the event I will often have dancers keep the same partner during 
La Bastringue.  I often use that as a first dance and call it from the floor 
while dancing.  I find the original swing too long and will call it with a Do 
si Do and swing for ONS.  Doing it that way I teach the dancers an additional 
move and prevent them from ending the swing early and they can actually stay 
with the phrasing of the music.  

 

Donna Hunt

 

 

-Original Message-
From: Robert Livingston 
To: Caller's discussion list 
Sent: Tue, Feb 11, 2014 1:23 am
Subject: Re: [Callers] Calling weddings and private parties


Call it either way!  

As with any circle really.

Bob Livingston





 From: Aahz Maruch 
To: call...@sharedweight.net 
Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 12:37 AM
Subject: Re: [Callers] Calling weddings and private parties
 

On Mon, Feb 10, 2014, Bill Olson wrote:
>
> [...] There are some easy circle dances too (La Bastringue where you
> stay with your partner the whole time)..

Um, what?!  The La Bastringue I know (both IFD and contra) is a mixer (SF
area in case it's a regional thing).
-- 
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6http://rule6.info/
  <*>   <*>   <*>
Help a hearing-impaired person: http://rule6.info/hearing.html
___
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Re: [Callers] Circle & pass through as the last move of a dance

[John W Gintell]

There are several other factors that effect this move. Sometime it is what 
happened before the circle causes the circle to start late because some people 
aren't there on time.

And if you are in the circle and the fourth person isn't quite there do those 
who are there trust that they'll catch up and thus start the circle on time or 
do you wait until they are there thus not even giving you 6 counts for the 
circle.

It is also surprising to discover how many people (and I don't mean only 
beginners) don't actually understand the 8-beat phrase - and depending on what 
the band is doing there may not be quite enough reinforcement. For people with 
no musical education - and there are lot more of them these days because school 
budgeting problems - phrases and beats are a foreign concept. And they are not 
going to absorb much through much popular music and butchered Star Spangled 
Banners sung at sports events.


> Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 17:42:21 -0500
> From: Read Weaver 
> To: Caller's discussion list 
> Subject: [Callers] Circle & pass through as the last move of a dance
> Message-ID: <8bce1a2d-60eb-4067-957d-5e19b2826...@igc.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> 
> In the last few years, I find myself dancing a lot more dances that end with
> Circle left 3 places and pass through
> 
> What I find is that about 3/4 of the dancers take 8 counts to do the circle 3 
> places, then a brief but indeterminate amount of time to do the pass through, 
> and then arrive late to the next couple & next figure. (The other 1/4 take 6 
> counts to circle, 2 to pass through, and are then on the music's phrasing for 
> the next figure.)
> 
> It seems to me likely that this is frustrating to almost everyone. The "eight 
> and late" dancers think "what a stupid dance, I can't get where I'm supposed 
> to be in time," and the "6 + 2" dancers think "why are 3/4 of the people not 
> here when I get here?"
> 
> I haven't done a careful study, but I did just go to an experienced dance, 
> and my impression is that the 3/4 - 1/4 ratio doesn't change with level of 
> experience (though the experienced dancers, whatever their timing is, do it 
> with more confidence). And I don't think there's anything all that surprising 
> about that: we hardly do anything in contras to a count of 6 or 2. (If I've 
> noticed any pattern, it's that contra dancers who also do English are more 
> likely to dance it 6+2.) I do it 6+2, since it's the only way I can see to 
> both dance to the phrasing and not be late to the next figure.
> 
> It seems like a caller could point it out which might help some (though 
> dancers' experience that everything is in a count of 8 or 4 is pretty 
> ingrained), but the avoidance of teaching seems to prevent that--I don't 
> recall any caller ever saying anything about it.
> 
> Have others noticed it as an issue? (And am I right that it's a relatively 
> recent issue?) Thoughts on what to do about it, if anything?
> 
> --Read Weaver
> Jamaica Plain, MA
> http://lcfd.org
> 

Re: [Callers] Calling weddings and private parties

[Child, Jeremy]

Sorry for the late reply - I had problems sending to the list.

I agree absolutely with your comments - and especially that you need simple 
proper dances.

I do a lot of weddings and have devised a few(!) rules / tricks to make them go 
well:

*   Never call a contra, and rarely a proper longways - they find the "1s 
work their way down, 2s work their way up" too complicated.
*   Start with a dance that allows you to test their ability, not just to 
dance but to listen to the caller and do what they're told!  A good mixer will 
do for this - Lucky 7 or Scatter Promenade
*   Keep the moves simple, and don't introduce too many new ones at once.  
I rarely do Ladies Chains, for example.
*   Start with simple dances and progress from there - so a grand chain 
starts as a special move but later becomes just something they do.
*   Don't feel the need to include too many clever moves - you can get a 
lot out of stars and circles!
*   Have a collection of 20 or so simple dances at your disposal
*   Be ready for not many people on the dance floor - plenty of three and 
four couple dances, just in case.
*   Equally have some "space saving" dances, in case everyone wants to get 
up.
*   Use dances that can take variable numbers of couples.  At a wedding, if 
7 couples get up to dance you need to get all 7 dancing.
*   Don't be afraid to write your own simple dances (about half of mine I 
wrote myself).
*   Have a supply of "sexless" dances - where you don't have to call "men" 
or "women".  This is especially important if you have a number of children.
*   On the subject of children, if you have very young ones avoid dances 
which change partner, or allow them to keep their partner while everyone else 
changes.
*   Use dances that are easy to recover from when they go wrong - and tell 
them how ("if you don't have anyone to swing come and stand in the middle")
*   Use dances where one person / couple going wrong doesn't mess it up for 
everyone else
*   Use dances with leeway in them - one set will always end up well behind 
and need recovery time
*   Once you get going in a dance, Be prepared to call it "unphrased" if 
they're just not getting through it in time - and warn the band beforehand if 
you can!
*   Calling from the floor with a radio mike helps a lot, as you have:
*   The ability to correct a particular person / set having 
difficulties during the walkthrough
*   The ability to correct a person / set during the actual dance
*   Much better engagement with the audience than standing on the 
stage

Regards

Jeremy
www.barndancecaller.net

Re: [Callers] Calling weddings and private parties

[Bill Olson]

Some times I call La Bastringue as a mixer at a wedding, but, especially if 
there are kids who might not want to "be away" from Mom or dad, I just call it 
as a keeper, i.e. swing is with partner each time, not neighbor.. 
 
b



 
> Date: Mon, 10 Feb 2014 21:37:19 -0800
> From: a...@pobox.com
> To: call...@sharedweight.net
> Subject: Re: [Callers] Calling weddings and private parties
> 
> On Mon, Feb 10, 2014, Bill Olson wrote:
> >
> > [...] There are some easy circle dances too (La Bastringue where you
> > stay with your partner the whole time)..
> 
> Um, what?!  The La Bastringue I know (both IFD and contra) is a mixer (SF
> area in case it's a regional thing).
> -- 
> Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6http://rule6.info/
>   <*>   <*>   <*>
> Help a hearing-impaired person: http://rule6.info/hearing.html
> ___
> Callers mailing list
> call...@sharedweight.net
> http://www.sharedweight.net/mailman/listinfo/callers
  

Re: [Callers] Calling weddings and private parties

[Aahz Maruch]

On Mon, Feb 10, 2014, Bill Olson wrote:
>
> [...] There are some easy circle dances too (La Bastringue where you
> stay with your partner the whole time)..

Um, what?!  The La Bastringue I know (both IFD and contra) is a mixer (SF
area in case it's a regional thing).
-- 
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6http://rule6.info/
  <*>   <*>   <*>
Help a hearing-impaired person: http://rule6.info/hearing.html