Re: [Catalyst] ActiveRecord for Perl
On 5/22/07 8:07 PM, Matt S Trout wrote: I discussed merging the projects with jcs a while back but he didn't see the point of the ResultSet chaining system, which I consider DBIC's key killer feature I just didn't think a merge made sense since the two projects have different philosophies and very different APIs. It's not that I don't understand result sets (RDBO will likely get them some day, in fact), they just weren't as important to me. I had a few specific things I wanted to do with RDBO and I did them first. It was a pragmatic approach. In the meantime, RDBO is a brilliantly well-written system and if you're with jcs in not seeing the point of the (functional-ish/set-arithmetic-ish resultset concept) and not wanting to be able to subclass to override at any level of the process, it's a very useful option. IME, it's not a matter of not seeing the point of a resultset approach, but rather a preference for a particular API type. That is, it's a matter of taste rather than one of ignorance. I usually tell people to examine both and choose whichever best suits their project - the experienced developers seem -usually- to end up going for DBIx::Class by default, Rose::DB::Object when they need speed over features but that's my personal experience from discussion with a few hundred perl developers, not a statement of intent/recommendation. Rose::DB::Object Although performance may attract people to RDBO initially, I think the people who decide to stick with it do so for other reasons: they like the API, it has some particular feature they want, etc. I've never taken a survey, but that's my impression based on RDBO mailing list traffic and so on. I can tell you that I'd personally keep using RDBO even if it was the slowest ORM, but perhaps that's not too surprising ;) -John ___ List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org Listinfo: http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] ActiveRecord for Perl
On Wed, May 23, 2007 at 11:05:44AM -0400, John Siracusa wrote: In the meantime, RDBO is a brilliantly well-written system and if you're with jcs in not seeing the point of the (functional-ish/set-arithmetic-ish resultset concept) and not wanting to be able to subclass to override at any level of the process, it's a very useful option. IME, it's not a matter of not seeing the point of a resultset approach, but rather a preference for a particular API type. That is, it's a matter of taste rather than one of ignorance. Hmm. I think that's a semantic mismatch, that's basically what I meant. That you don't see the point for your purposes doesn't mean that you don't understand why others do for theirs. I still personally believe resultset chaining to be a lisp-vs-blub-ism, and find that the majority of people who try it find it addictive, but that could purely be a matter of my sample self-selecting. I usually tell people to examine both and choose whichever best suits their project - the experienced developers seem -usually- to end up going for DBIx::Class by default, Rose::DB::Object when they need speed over features but that's my personal experience from discussion with a few hundred perl developers, not a statement of intent/recommendation. Rose::DB::Object Although performance may attract people to RDBO initially, I think the people who decide to stick with it do so for other reasons: they like the API, it has some particular feature they want, etc. I've never taken a survey, but that's my impression based on RDBO mailing list traffic and so on. I can tell you that I'd personally keep using RDBO even if it was the slowest ORM, but perhaps that's not too surprising ;) I tend to think in terms of conceptual mapping rather than in terms of API details, and I think I could fairly easily implement the DBIC API atop RDBO and vice versa (modulo the odd missing feature on either side), so I beg to disagree with your they're too different assertion. At the point at which I originally discussed it with you I'd have been happy to write a DBIC layer over RDBO if I'd been permitted to patch a resultset concept into the latter, but I got the impression you didn't want it at all; I'm glad to hear that you're planning to eventually add it to RDBO but at this stage we're a little late in the game for a merge to be viable. Never mind, maybe we can collaborate on a perl6 ORM when there's a production implementation of the language for us to code to :) -- Matt S Trout Need help with your Catalyst or DBIx::Class project? Technical DirectorWant a managed development or deployment platform? Shadowcat Systems Ltd. Contact mst (at) shadowcatsystems.co.uk for a quote http://chainsawblues.vox.com/ http://www.shadowcatsystems.co.uk/ ___ List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org Listinfo: http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] ActiveRecord for Perl
On 5/23/07 12:47 PM, Matt S Trout wrote: I tend to think in terms of conceptual mapping rather than in terms of API details, and I think I could fairly easily implement the DBIC API atop RDBO and vice versa (modulo the odd missing feature on either side) Sure, but what would the result look like? I think it's wise to concentrate on a single API. Just look at CDBICompat for an example of how hard it is to maintain two APIs, even when one is preexisting. It's also a headache for users: which is the real or native API? Never mind, maybe we can collaborate on a perl6 ORM when there's a production implementation of the language for us to code to :) Yes, I've always considered this all prototype work for Perl 6...although then we have to allow for the first two throw-away ORMs for Perl 6 as we all learn how the heck to use the language in the best way. It never ends... ;) -John ___ List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org Listinfo: http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] ActiveRecord for Perl
Christopher H. Laco [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 05/23/2007 12:49:20 PM: John Siracusa wrote: [snip] Yes, I've always considered this all prototype work for Perl 6...although then we have to allow for the first two throw-away ORMs for Perl 6as we all Let the CDBI port take care of that. :-P Funny, I consider it two throw away ORMs too. =) ___ List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org Listinfo: http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] ActiveRecord for Perl
I'm considering trying to port Ruby's ActiveRecord to Perl as a lightweight ORM option (with some small changes maybe, like composite PKs). If anyone's interested, toss me a message privately and we'll coordinate. What I found missing in DBIx::Class is AR method find_by_sql(sql). We use catalystdbix for months (kind of data-warehouse project), but rewriting complex, read-only SQL statements to dbix/perl notation is for me a waste of time (when editing updating tables with ORM is so fast to code and intuitive). However is it worth to build just-another-orm for perl when DBIx::Class is not so far to be really good one? -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.hurra-communications.com/ $ o m et e a m . d e v e l o p e r Hurra Communications, Krakow/Stuttgart/London/Paris/Madrid ___ List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org Listinfo: http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] ActiveRecord for Perl
Adam Bartosik wrote: I'm considering trying to port Ruby's ActiveRecord to Perl as a lightweight ORM option (with some small changes maybe, like composite PKs). If anyone's interested, toss me a message privately and we'll coordinate. What I found missing in DBIx::Class is AR method find_by_sql(sql). We use catalystdbix for months (kind of data-warehouse project), but rewriting complex, read-only SQL statements to dbix/perl notation is for me a waste of time (when editing updating tables with ORM is so fast to code and intuitive). However is it worth to build just-another-orm for perl when DBIx::Class is not so far to be really good one? Maybe not. Or maybe we could write a wrapper to give more of an AR interface. I'm currently trying to decide on Catalyst or Rails for a new project. I like the flexibility of Catalyst (and love Perl), but I'm attracted to a lot of the design decisions in Rails (I like the fact, for example, that ActiveRecord::Validations supports data validation in the model, just like we were discussing in a previous thread). So part of me would like to see a more Rails-like layer on top of Catalyst. Maurice ___ List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org Listinfo: http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
RE: [Catalyst] ActiveRecord for Perl
I'm considering trying to port Ruby's ActiveRecord to Perl as a lightweight ORM option (with some small changes maybe, like composite PKs). If anyone's interested, toss me a message privately and we'll coordinate. Why not simply colaborate to extend DBIx? -- Eduard Giménez CAPSiDE Systems Engineer [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org Listinfo: http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] ActiveRecord for Perl
I'm currently trying to decide on Catalyst or Rails for a new project. I like the flexibility of Catalyst (and love Perl), but I'm attracted to a lot of the design decisions in Rails (I like the fact, for example, that ActiveRecord::Validations supports data validation in the model, just like we were discussing in a previous thread). Months ago I gave a try for ROR. What is good compared to Catalyst? - documentation. It is easy to start, good doc, there are many books, tutos about it. Catalyst doc is... nothing interesting, sometimes inconsistent, sometimes broken links. Even less popular frameworks in Python like Pylons have better doc, are easier to start with. Because of flexibility, Catalyst could be very difficult at start (many chooses) - various web-related libs are better, up to date in Ror, eg. prototype My problems with ROR: - composite keys not out of the box - quoting names (I didn't find any workaround, maybe 2h of googling and trying to fix it is too less?) - much fighting to use for existing DB Sometimes you need to use something from CPAN and gems are not so solution-full. I think when you start a new agile project, ROR can be very helpful - especially when you need some rules (for project team), some design constraints, it is simple - do it our way. There is no such religious approach with Catalyst, you can do what you want typically the way you want. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.hurra-communications.com/ $ o m et e a m . d e v e l o p e r Hurra Communications, Krakow/Stuttgart/London/Paris/Madrid ___ List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org Listinfo: http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] ActiveRecord for Perl
On Tue, May 22, 2007 at 09:33:37AM +0200, Adam Bartosik wrote: I'm considering trying to port Ruby's ActiveRecord to Perl as a lightweight ORM option (with some small changes maybe, like composite PKs). If anyone's interested, toss me a message privately and we'll coordinate. What I found missing in DBIx::Class is AR method find_by_sql(sql). We use catalystdbix for months (kind of data-warehouse project), but rewriting complex, read-only SQL statements to dbix/perl notation is for me a waste of time (when editing updating tables with ORM is so fast to code and intuitive). What would that achieve that passing literal SQL chunks for SELECT, FROM, WHERE etc. wouldn't? -- Matt S Trout Need help with your Catalyst or DBIx::Class project? Technical DirectorWant a managed development or deployment platform? Shadowcat Systems Ltd. Contact mst (at) shadowcatsystems.co.uk for a quote http://chainsawblues.vox.com/ http://www.shadowcatsystems.co.uk/ ___ List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org Listinfo: http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] ActiveRecord for Perl
On 5/22/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: one thing i really like about AR is the association proxies, where relationships themselves are objects you can call methods (ie, find) on class User ActiveRecord::Base has_many :items end class Item ActiveRecord::Base belongs_to :user end items = user.items item = user.items.find(params[:id]) new_item = user.items.create!(params[:item]) you can get close to that with RDBO's $user-find_items() (and maybe DBIC has something similarish) but the ruby way here feels so much better! ruby way? That's exactly how DBIC works. -- Eden Cardim Instituto Baiano de Biotecnologia Núcleo de Biologia Computacional e Gestão de Informações Biotecnológicas Laboratório de Bioinformática ___ List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org Listinfo: http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] ActiveRecord for Perl
On 5/22/07, Adam Bartosik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I doubt there's anything worth porting in ActiveRecord that one of the many Perl options (DBIx::Class, Rose::DB::Object, Class::DBI, Tangram, Alzabo) doesn't provide. - Perrin one thing i really like about AR is the association proxies, where relationships themselves are objects you can call methods (ie, find) on class User ActiveRecord::Base has_many :items end class Item ActiveRecord::Base belongs_to :user end items = user.items item = user.items.find(params[:id]) new_item = user.items.create!(params[:item]) you can get close to that with RDBO's $user-find_items() (and maybe DBIC has something similarish) but the ruby way here feels so much better! ___ List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org Listinfo: http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
RE: [Catalyst] ActiveRecord for Perl
-Original Message- From: mla [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2007 4:25 AM To: The elegant MVC web framework So part of me would like to see a more Rails-like layer on top of Catalyst. Sounds like you really want to write a Rails-like layer for Catalyst! Disclaimer: This message is for the named person's use only. It may contain confidential, proprietary or legally privileged information. The above information has been prepared for information purposes only. The above does not constitute an offer, recommendation or solicitation to buy or sell, nor is it an official confirmation of terms. While the information herein has been obtained from sources believed to be reliable, Landesbank Baden-Württemberg makes no representation that it is accurate or complete and it should not be relied upon as such. Neither Landesbank Baden-Württemberg nor any employee herein guarantees the information contained in this message. No confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost by any mistransmission. If you receive this message in error, please immediately delete it and all copies of it from your system, destroy any hard copies of it and notify the sender. You are not entitled to, directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute,print, or copy any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient.Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the sender specifies and with authority, states them to be the views of Landesbank Baden-Wurttemberg. ___ List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org Listinfo: http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] ActiveRecord for Perl
On Tue, May 22, 2007 at 06:53:00AM -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On 5/22/07, Adam Bartosik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I doubt there's anything worth porting in ActiveRecord that one of the
many Perl options (DBIx::Class, Rose::DB::Object, Class::DBI, Tangram,
Alzabo) doesn't provide.
- Perrin
one thing i really like about AR is the association proxies, where
relationships themselves are objects you can call methods (ie, find) on
DBIC relationships return resultset objects in scalar context:
class User ActiveRecord::Base
has_many :items
__PACKAGE__-has_many('items', 'MyApp::DB::Item');
end
class Item ActiveRecord::Base
belongs_to :user
__PACKAGE__-belongs_to('user', 'MyApp::DB::User');
end
items = user.items
my @items = $user-items;
or
my $items_rs = $user-items;
item = user.items.find(params[:id])
my $item = $user-items-find($item_id);
new_item = user.items.create!(params[:item])
my $new_item = $user-items-create(\%item_info);
you can get close to that with RDBO's $user-find_items() (and maybe DBIC
has something similarish) but the ruby way here feels so much better!
How?
--
Matt S Trout Need help with your Catalyst or DBIx::Class project?
Technical DirectorWant a managed development or deployment platform?
Shadowcat Systems Ltd. Contact mst (at) shadowcatsystems.co.uk for a quote
http://chainsawblues.vox.com/ http://www.shadowcatsystems.co.uk/
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Re: [Catalyst] ActiveRecord for Perl
What would that achieve that passing literal SQL chunks for SELECT, FROM,
WHERE etc. wouldn't?
Readability. Complex SQL statements are more clear to understand than
complex dbix statements when you are not an author of DBIX ;)
I can also test it with simple copypaste to sql console to see how it
works, how it is planned / optimized.
I know it is ORM and database abstraction, I'm theoretically independent
from my DB vendor and so on, but it doesn't change the fact it is more
complicated, more noise, more strange -opt { qw[col1 col2] } than
pure SQL statement.
And when all this Catalyst/Dbix stuff is so flexible - why I should
fight with such approach?
--
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$ o m et e a m . d e v e l o p e r
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Re: [Catalyst] ActiveRecord for Perl
On Tue, May 22, 2007 at 05:36:18PM +0200, Adam Bartosik wrote:
What would that achieve that passing literal SQL chunks for SELECT, FROM,
WHERE etc. wouldn't?
Readability. Complex SQL statements are more clear to understand than
complex dbix statements when you are not an author of DBIX ;)
I can also test it with simple copypaste to sql console to see how it
works, how it is planned / optimized.
I know it is ORM and database abstraction, I'm theoretically independent
from my DB vendor and so on, but it doesn't change the fact it is more
complicated, more noise, more strange -opt { qw[col1 col2] } than
pure SQL statement.
And when all this Catalyst/Dbix stuff is so flexible - why I should
fight with such approach?
Ok, I can see all of those arguments.
So here's the one big remaining question - why haven't you worked out what
syntax you'd like to see for this feature and started a thread on the
dbix-class list to discuss it? :)
--
Matt S Trout Need help with your Catalyst or DBIx::Class project?
Technical DirectorWant a managed development or deployment platform?
Shadowcat Systems Ltd. Contact mst (at) shadowcatsystems.co.uk for a quote
http://chainsawblues.vox.com/ http://www.shadowcatsystems.co.uk/
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Re: [Catalyst] ActiveRecord for Perl
I agree with you, using DBIx for simple stuff is fine, but after a while raw
SQL is sometimes nice to have.
I cant figure out how to return the data in object form, but this will at
least give you some data:
__PACKAGE__-load_components(qw/
ResultSetManager
PK::Auto
Core
/);
sub get_data : ResultSet {
my ($self) = @_;
my $dbh = $self-result_source-schema-storage-dbh;
## use the handle, return data
}
http://search.cpan.org/~JROBINSON/DBIx-Class-0.07005/lib/DBIx/Class/Manual/Cookbook.pod#Predefined_searches_without_writing_a_ResultSet_class
But this is not so useful if you cant return it in object form. (Want to be
able to call functions/associations on that object). CDBI does it with
sth_to_objects, and there is a CDBI compatibility layer, but I cant seem to
get it working correctly.
John
On 5/22/07, Adam Bartosik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
What would that achieve that passing literal SQL chunks for SELECT,
FROM,
WHERE etc. wouldn't?
Readability. Complex SQL statements are more clear to understand than
complex dbix statements when you are not an author of DBIX ;)
I can also test it with simple copypaste to sql console to see how it
works, how it is planned / optimized.
I know it is ORM and database abstraction, I'm theoretically independent
from my DB vendor and so on, but it doesn't change the fact it is more
complicated, more noise, more strange -opt { qw[col1 col2] } than
pure SQL statement.
And when all this Catalyst/Dbix stuff is so flexible - why I should
fight with such approach?
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.hurra-communications.com/
$ o m et e a m . d e v e l o p e r
Hurra Communications, Krakow/Stuttgart/London/Paris/Madrid
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Re: [Catalyst] ActiveRecord for Perl
So here's the one big remaining question - why haven't you worked out what syntax you'd like to see for this feature and started a thread on the dbix-class list to discuss it? :) Good point. To be honest - I need to dig deeply into dbix structure to propose something in the dbix way. The main feature I would like to get from dbix as a wrapper for SQL statement is pagination. Ok, see you on dbix list ;) -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.hurra-communications.com/ $ o m et e a m . d e v e l o p e r Hurra Communications, Krakow/Stuttgart/London/Paris/Madrid ___ List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org Listinfo: http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] ActiveRecord for Perl
On Tue, May 22, 2007 at 11:52:22AM -0400, John Goulah wrote: I agree with you, using DBIx for simple stuff is fine, but after a while raw SQL is sometimes nice to have. Personally I find it worthwhile to reformulate queries in DBIC form - I find complex queries are usually there for reporting purposes and being able to filter, page etc. reports using the usual DBIC syntax is worth the effort of doing the conversion. But that may just be me :) - and what I'd really love to see is somebody use one of the SQL parser modules on CPAN to allow a standalone query to be backtracked into a resultset so you can get the best of both these approaches; however nobody's stepped up to do it and there are things I consider more of a priority for my own development time. But this is not so useful if you cant return it in object form. (Want to be able to call functions/associations on that object). CDBI does it with sth_to_objects, and there is a CDBI compatibility layer, but I cant seem to get it working correctly. I've actually replied on the dbix-class list showing you how to do this in pure DBIC - the CDBICompat layer should only ever be used for its intended purpose, there are too many hacks in it to make the 'compatibility' part work. -- Matt S Trout Need help with your Catalyst or DBIx::Class project? Technical DirectorWant a managed development or deployment platform? Shadowcat Systems Ltd. Contact mst (at) shadowcatsystems.co.uk for a quote http://chainsawblues.vox.com/ http://www.shadowcatsystems.co.uk/ ___ List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org Listinfo: http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] ActiveRecord for Perl
On Tue, May 22, 2007 at 01:14:31PM -0300, Eden Cardim wrote: On 5/22/07, Adam Bartosik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Good point. To be honest - I need to dig deeply into dbix structure to propose something in the dbix way. The main feature I would like to get from dbix as a wrapper for SQL statement is pagination. DBIC::RS has paging, just use the 'rows' and 'page' attrs. That's where we start to run into trouble - DBIC can provide all this stuff but it needs the metadata, which means it needs the query in DBIC form. Anyway, we'll discuss on't appropriate list :) -- Matt S Trout Need help with your Catalyst or DBIx::Class project? Technical DirectorWant a managed development or deployment platform? Shadowcat Systems Ltd. Contact mst (at) shadowcatsystems.co.uk for a quote http://chainsawblues.vox.com/ http://www.shadowcatsystems.co.uk/ ___ List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org Listinfo: http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] ActiveRecord for Perl
On May 22, 2007, at 7:58 AM, Matt S Trout wrote: item = user.items.find(params[:id]) my $item = $user-items-find($item_id); new_item = user.items.create!(params[:item]) my $new_item = $user-items-create(\%item_info); that's great; i thought i had recalled something similar, but couldn't find it again in my quick skim of DBIx::Class::Manual::* you can get close to that with RDBO's $user-find_items() (and maybe DBIC has something similarish) but the ruby way here feels so much better! How? personal satisfaction. ___ List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org Listinfo: http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] ActiveRecord for Perl
On Tue, May 22, 2007 at 09:29:25AM -0700, Michael Reece wrote: On May 22, 2007, at 7:58 AM, Matt S Trout wrote: item = user.items.find(params[:id]) my $item = $user-items-find($item_id); new_item = user.items.create!(params[:item]) my $new_item = $user-items-create(\%item_info); that's great; i thought i had recalled something similar, but couldn't find it again in my quick skim of DBIx::Class::Manual::* you can get close to that with RDBO's $user-find_items() (and maybe DBIC has something similarish) but the ruby way here feels so much better! How? personal satisfaction. Right, but the DBIC code involved is almost identical. Given that you now know that, would you be willing to consider contributing any features you consider missing in DBIx::Class rather than writing another implementation of essentially the same API? (DBIC is intentionally not opinionated to let people do things their way with it - there are more than enough perl ORM projects already and I wanted to provide something people could subclass/extend rather than have to re-invent again :) -- Matt S Trout Need help with your Catalyst or DBIx::Class project? Technical DirectorWant a managed development or deployment platform? Shadowcat Systems Ltd. Contact mst (at) shadowcatsystems.co.uk for a quote http://chainsawblues.vox.com/ http://www.shadowcatsystems.co.uk/ ___ List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org Listinfo: http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] ActiveRecord for Perl
John Napiorkowski wrote: --- Eduard Giménez [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm considering trying to port Ruby's ActiveRecord to Perl as a lightweight ORM option (with some small changes maybe, like composite PKs). If anyone's interested, toss me a message privately and we'll coordinate. Why not simply colaborate to extend DBIx? Just as a followup to that, you should really try to write a list of everything you think is missing from DBIx and discuss it over on the project mailing list. The framework is designed around a component architecture so it's straightforward to add or alter features. I find it unlikely you will be able to match it's features without more than a year of consistent effort. Okay, thanks. I will do that. I'm mainly looking to strip features, not match them. Some of the validation stuff that AR does for you could be handled by some hacking on DBIC::Validation although to be honest good design would preclude wanted to put all your validation in the physical model class. Agreed. Maurice ___ List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org Listinfo: http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] ActiveRecord for Perl
Perrin Harkins wrote: On 5/22/07, Adam Bartosik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What I found missing in DBIx::Class is AR method find_by_sql(sql). Did you ask about it on the mailing list? Nearly all of the Perl ORMs have support for direct SQL. I don't know DBIx::Class, but search_literal sounds like what you want. I doubt there's anything worth porting in ActiveRecord that one of the many Perl options (DBIx::Class, Rose::DB::Object, Class::DBI, Tangram, Alzabo) doesn't provide. If I may ask, Perrin, what do you use? Maurice ___ List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org Listinfo: http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] ActiveRecord for Perl
mla wrote: Christopher H. Laco wrote: mla wrote: Perrin Harkins wrote: On 5/22/07, Adam Bartosik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What I found missing in DBIx::Class is AR method find_by_sql(sql). Did you ask about it on the mailing list? Nearly all of the Perl ORMs have support for direct SQL. I don't know DBIx::Class, but search_literal sounds like what you want. I doubt there's anything worth porting in ActiveRecord that one of the many Perl options (DBIx::Class, Rose::DB::Object, Class::DBI, Tangram, Alzabo) doesn't provide. If I may ask, Perrin, what do you use? Maurice I'm one of those odd birds that's used CDBI, DBIC and RDBO. I've converted from CDBI to DBIC and also written an RDBO layer for a project. /CDBI smart ass comments deleted/ :-) They all have their quirks. DBIC does a great job of getting out of your way. If there's an option, chances are you can set it at the class and/or object instance level, allowing fair amounts of evil to be accomplished. :-) RDBO tickles my fancy if I'm really into triggers at the various stages of data usage. What I really really missed from DBIC when writing RDBO was deploy(). The ability to just kick out a db schema into a DB from a DBIC schema totally rocks. Thanks for sharing your experiences. Other than the the deploy() stuff, any other criticisms of RDBO? Now that I'm looking at it again, I'm liking the design very much. I found this thread that compared some of the differences (might be outdated now): http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/catalyst/users/3095 What would cause you to *not* use RDBO on a new project? Maurice Just for giggles, you can compare the two sets of glue: http://search.cpan.org/src/CLACO/Handel-Storage-RDBO-0.01_02/lib/Handel/Storage/RDBO.pm http://search.cpan.org/src/CLACO/Handel-0.99_18/lib/Handel/Storage/DBIC.pm Same API...different ORMS. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org Listinfo: http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] ActiveRecord for Perl
mla wrote: Christopher H. Laco wrote: mla wrote: Perrin Harkins wrote: On 5/22/07, Adam Bartosik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What I found missing in DBIx::Class is AR method find_by_sql(sql). Did you ask about it on the mailing list? Nearly all of the Perl ORMs have support for direct SQL. I don't know DBIx::Class, but search_literal sounds like what you want. I doubt there's anything worth porting in ActiveRecord that one of the many Perl options (DBIx::Class, Rose::DB::Object, Class::DBI, Tangram, Alzabo) doesn't provide. If I may ask, Perrin, what do you use? Maurice I'm one of those odd birds that's used CDBI, DBIC and RDBO. I've converted from CDBI to DBIC and also written an RDBO layer for a project. /CDBI smart ass comments deleted/ :-) They all have their quirks. DBIC does a great job of getting out of your way. If there's an option, chances are you can set it at the class and/or object instance level, allowing fair amounts of evil to be accomplished. :-) RDBO tickles my fancy if I'm really into triggers at the various stages of data usage. What I really really missed from DBIC when writing RDBO was deploy(). The ability to just kick out a db schema into a DB from a DBIC schema totally rocks. Thanks for sharing your experiences. Other than the the deploy() stuff, any other criticisms of RDBO? Now that I'm looking at it again, I'm liking the design very much. I found this thread that compared some of the differences (might be outdated now): http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/catalyst/users/3095 What would cause you to *not* use RDBO on a new project? Maurice Well, to be fair to RDBO, I'm just not as familiar with it as I am with DBIC. When I was doing the storage layer for RDBO, what I missed (aside from deploy) was the *_related methods and the fact that resultsets are chainable. DBIC appears to take the approach that given object A, I can always get to related object B through object A accessors, helpers, *_related etc. RDBO seemed to tale take the opposite approach. Instead of working from one object to another, you went through *Manager classes when odd things are called for. Managers...ResultSets There's been a lot of traffic on RDBO lately polishing helper methods for relations and other such stuff Really, they're both great ORMS. I just prefer DBIC. Some prefer RDBO. Both are powerful. Just don't use CDBI. :-P (Sorry, couldn't resist). Repeat after me: Thou Shalt Never Create A CDBI Storage Layer For Handel. :-) -=Chris signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org Listinfo: http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] ActiveRecord for Perl
On 5/22/07, mla [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If I may ask, Perrin, what do you use? I have a large system that was started back when Class::DBI was a hot new thing. It still uses CDBI and hasn't really had a good reason to change, since we use a lot of custom SQL and that's pretty easy to do with CDBI (and performs well). For new projects, I'm trying Rose::DB::Object. I had good success using the query builder from RDBO on its own for one project. A lot of the database work I do doesn't go through any ORM because it involves complex reporting. There are some good features in the other ones too. Tangram is a pretty amazing accomplishment. DBIx::Class abstracts some things that the others don't, making it more flexible. RDBO seems to suit me best at the moment though. - Perrin ___ List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org Listinfo: http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] ActiveRecord for Perl
On Tue, May 22, 2007 at 12:03:43PM -0700, mla wrote: Okay, thanks. I will do that. I'm mainly looking to strip features, not match them. DBIx::Class' component architecture makes it easy to do that too. It's pretty much an ORM construction kit that just happens to provide a default recipe :) -- Matt S Trout Need help with your Catalyst or DBIx::Class project? Technical DirectorWant a managed development or deployment platform? Shadowcat Systems Ltd. Contact mst (at) shadowcatsystems.co.uk for a quote http://chainsawblues.vox.com/ http://www.shadowcatsystems.co.uk/ ___ List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org Listinfo: http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] ActiveRecord for Perl
Christopher H. Laco wrote on 5/22/07 2:47 PM: Well, to be fair to RDBO, I'm just not as familiar with it as I am with DBIC. When I was doing the storage layer for RDBO, what I missed (aside from deploy) was the *_related methods and the fact that resultsets are chainable. DBIC appears to take the approach that given object A, I can always get to related object B through object A accessors, helpers, *_related etc. RDBO seemed to tale take the opposite approach. Instead of working from one object to another, you went through *Manager classes when odd things are called for. Actually, RDBO works like you describe DBIC. The *Manager classes are for groups of objects. For one object to another, you use the fk and relationship Metadata definitions (1-1, 1-m, m-m, etc). $objectB = $objectA-objectB; -- Peter Karman . http://peknet.com/ . [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org Listinfo: http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
Re: [Catalyst] ActiveRecord for Perl
On Tue, May 22, 2007 at 03:46:16PM -0500, Peter Karman wrote: Christopher H. Laco wrote on 5/22/07 2:47 PM: Well, to be fair to RDBO, I'm just not as familiar with it as I am with DBIC. When I was doing the storage layer for RDBO, what I missed (aside from deploy) was the *_related methods and the fact that resultsets are chainable. DBIC appears to take the approach that given object A, I can always get to related object B through object A accessors, helpers, *_related etc. RDBO seemed to tale take the opposite approach. Instead of working from one object to another, you went through *Manager classes when odd things are called for. Actually, RDBO works like you describe DBIC. The *Manager classes are for groups of objects. For one object to another, you use the fk and relationship Metadata definitions (1-1, 1-m, m-m, etc). $objectB = $objectA-objectB; So far as I can see, the basic difference is - DBIx::Class aims for fast enough and extremely extensible/flexible Rose::DB::Object aim for extremely fast and extensible/flexible enough I discussed merging the projects with jcs a while back but he didn't see the point of the ResultSet chaining system, which I consider DBIC's key killer feature - until you've used it you don't realise it's something every other ORM is missing (see Paul Graham's lisp vs. blub articles). Personally, I see this as a great shame - for want of jcs understanding the use of one feature, the chance to have a single project was lost. In the meantime, RDBO is a brilliantly well-written system and if you're with jcs in not seeing the point of the (functional-ish/set-arithmetic-ish resultset concept) and not wanting to be able to subclass to override at any level of the process, it's a very useful option. I usually tell people to examine both and choose whichever best suits their project - the experienced developers seem -usually- to end up going for DBIx::Class by default, Rose::DB::Object when they need speed over features but that's my personal experience from discussion with a few hundred perl developers, not a statement of intent/recommendation. Rose::DB::Object -- Matt S Trout Need help with your Catalyst or DBIx::Class project? Technical DirectorWant a managed development or deployment platform? Shadowcat Systems Ltd. Contact mst (at) shadowcatsystems.co.uk for a quote http://chainsawblues.vox.com/ http://www.shadowcatsystems.co.uk/ ___ List: Catalyst@lists.rawmode.org Listinfo: http://lists.rawmode.org/mailman/listinfo/catalyst Searchable archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/catalyst@lists.rawmode.org/ Dev site: http://dev.catalyst.perl.org/
