[cayugabirds-l] Cinnamon Hybrid WAS still there.

[M Miller]

Spent 20-30 minutes watching the hybrid Blue-winged/Cinnamon Teal at LaRues 
Lagoon (Montezuma) when a tug boat went smoking & chugging up the canal and 
spooked all the ducks & geese on LaRues. Most of them seemed to land in the 
main pool, but unable to relocate the hybrid teal. Hoping it will return 
tomorrow. Still a wide variety of ducks, but numbers down from couple weeks 
ago. 1 Yellowlegs (Greater?) and a few Dowitchers on Eaton Marsh, all seen 
about 3 PM Friday.


Mark Miller






Sent from Windows Mail
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Re: [cayugabirds-l] guns at Stewart Park

[Kevin Koss]

If one goes to the City of Ithaca code site (ecode 360) and searches "guns" or 
"hunting", you will find information on the ban on the discharge of a gun in 
the city and also of the ban on hunting in the city. The word "firearms" will 
direct to Article ll which defines the restriction in Stewart Park. Also if a 
search for Stewart Park is attempted you will find no listing in the index. 
Based upon the searches of guns and hunting they may have well believed they 
were in their rights and not in violation of any restrictions. 

> On Nov 13, 2015, at 4:42 PM, bob mcguire  wrote:
> 
> “Rights”, yes, Dave. 
> 
> But along with rights go responsibilities. And one of those is to know the 
> law as it applies to you. The City, of course, needs to make clear the Code 
> as it applies to Stewart Park (signage). But that doesn’t excuse ignoring the 
> law - especially where firearms are concerned.
> 
> Bob McGuire
>> On Nov 13, 2015, at 4:30 PM, David Diaz  wrote:
>> 
>> My guess is that these hunters thought they were conducting themselves in a 
>> manner consistent with NYSDEC regs, meaning that they have the right to 
>> waterfowl hunt on Cayuga Lake as long they don't fire in the direction of a 
>> dwelling that's less than 500' away (among other things).
>> 
>> They also may have been relying on the law that makes it illegal to harass 
>> anyone that's hunting according to regulations.  They may have also been 
>> unaware of the local ordinance that prohibits even the carrying of a firearm 
>> within Stewart Park. Generally you can access public waters via public 
>> access in NYS however municipalities may have more strict laws in 
>> place...something a hunter is supposed to research and abide by.  
>> 
>> If they had accessed the lake somewhere else they would have legally been 
>> able to hunt waterfowl just offshore from Stewart Park.  I'm pretty sure 
>> about that but could be missing something.
>> 
>> I wasn't there but I can see how the confusion could happen especially if 
>> hunters are given incorrect info by local law enforcement. It's also 
>> possible they knew the local ordinance but ignored it.  Can't know for sure. 
>>  Conflicts are sure to arise on occasion between hunters and other users.  
>> All have rights.
>> 
>> David Diaz
>> Trumansburg, NY
>> 
>> On Nov 12, 2015, at 11:06 PM, Dave Nutter  wrote:
>> 
>>> This afternoon I was enjoying Stewart Park - the Cayuga Waterfront Trail, 
>>> the Fuertes Sanctuary (swan pond), the birds on the lake - as I often do. 
>>> As I walked clockwise around the pond and came out from the Fuertes 
>>> Sanctuary path near the lakeshore and toward the park road, I came face to 
>>> face with 3 guys carrying guns and dragging a small boat. I took a couple 
>>> photos on my phone (I've been practicing lately, but they weren't very 
>>> good) and I told them they weren't allowed to have guns in Stewart Park. 
>>> They said lots of law enforcement agencies had been called on them before, 
>>> which sort of contradicts what they also said about me being the only one 
>>> who has given them a problem, and they were told it was okay if the guns 
>>> weren't loaded. I said the ban was in the City Code, and maybe those police 
>>> hadn't read that part. They were skeptical. They said they'd seen guys walk 
>>> right out and shoot waterfowl from Stewart Park. I said I would've tried to 
>>> stop those guys, too. They didn't want to leave, but seemed to think that 
>>> having police, who had agreed with them before, resolve the issue would get 
>>> me out of their hair. So I called 911 and explained the situation. The guys 
>>> in camo agreed to wait for the cops, although meanwhile they did put their 
>>> guns back in their pick-up trucks. That was nice, since kids were arriving 
>>> next to them for rowing practice at the Cascadilla Boathouse, although I 
>>> think the kids were unaware of what was going on. Also I was pretty 
>>> uncomfortable confronting people with guns while waiting for police (also 
>>> with guns) to tell me I was wrong. The guys asked me if I had been waiting 
>>> for them. I said, no, I was just here a lot. A short while later IPD showed 
>>> up in the form of a friendly woman who was smaller than the smallest of the 
>>> 3 guys, and a lot smaller than the largest, who was considerably bigger 
>>> than me. She seemed inclined to let them proceed, then took my ID info, and 
>>> said I could leave. I didn't say that I had been enjoying the park and 
>>> intended to continue. Instead I said I'd like to stay for the outcome, that 
>>> I thought guns were banned in Stewart Park by the City Code, and if that's 
>>> the case I'd like to see it enforced. She said she had to look it up, then 
>>> took the guys' IDs, and got back in her cruiser to consult her computer 
>>> monitor. Another IPD officer, a man, pulled up, got out, and stood by her 
>>> window, not talking to me or the gun guys. After awhile she came out, gave 
>>> the guys back their 

[cayugabirds-l] MONTEZUMA WINTER RAPTOR SURVEY

[David Marsh]

The 2015/2016 Montezuma Winter Raptor Survey season will begin November 18th. 
Surveys have been conducted annually at Montezuma since 2010, and will be 
conducted weekly on Wednesdays, one half hour before sunset to one half hour 
after sunset. Surveyors follow an established protocol. We need veteran 
surveyors who are able to identify raptors who frequent our area. If you are an 
inexperienced surveyor, or even new to birding, you are welcome to attend and 
you will be assigned to accompany a veteran surveyor. The more eyes we have at 
each site the greater our chance of spotting raptors. Our work generates 
important data for use by the Montezuma National Wildlife Refuge and Department 
of Environmental Conservation in managing habitat. Accurate data collection is 
our number one priority. Our work is important, and I assure you that it will 
be appreciated. 

Approximately 20 sites at the Greater Montezuma Wetland Complex are surveyed. 
Species of particular interest are the Short-eared Owl (SEOW), which is 
endangered in N.Y. State, and the Northern Harrier (NOHA), which is threatened. 
All raptors are counted and their specific activity recorded.The surveys also 
provide an opportunity to sharpen ID skills, enjoy watching raptors conduct 
their deadly serious efforts in search of food under difficult climate 
conditions, and, experience the solitude of Montezuma in the winter. You will 
visit parts of Montezuma that are normally closed to the public, and learn more 
about what attracts raptors to the complex in the winter season. We meet at the 
Refuge Office at the times listed below where you will receive a briefing, 
obtain assignments, and pick up materials for the survey. Surveyors will return 
to the office after completion of the survey to turn in data and exchange 
information about experiences.

The meeting times for November and December are:

Wednesday, Nov. 18, meet at 3:25 pm 
Wednesday, Nov. 25, meet at 3:20 pm
Wednesday, Dec. 2, meet at 3:20 pm
Wednesday, Dec. 9, meet at 3:20 pm
Wednesday, Dec. 16, meet at 3:20 pm
Wednesday, Dec. 23, meet at 3:20 pm
Wednesday, Dec. 30, meet at 3:25 pm

The survey season runs through March. The survey dates and times for January, 
February, and March will be announced in mid-December. Surveyors must sign up 
to attend a survey no later than the evening before the survey date. If you are 
interested, please e-mail me, David Marsh,  at dsm...@frontiernet.net , put 
“Raptor Survey” in the subject line, and I will add you to the surveyor list. 
You will then receive weekly summary reports of the survey results. 

David S. Marsh
Canandaigua, New York
dsm...@frontiernet.net
585-396-2170
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Re: [cayugabirds-l] guns at Stewart Park

[bob mcguire]

“Rights”, yes, Dave. 

But along with rights go responsibilities. And one of those is to know the law 
as it applies to you. The City, of course, needs to make clear the Code as it 
applies to Stewart Park (signage). But that doesn’t excuse ignoring the law - 
especially where firearms are concerned.

Bob McGuire
On Nov 13, 2015, at 4:30 PM, David Diaz  wrote:

> My guess is that these hunters thought they were conducting themselves in a 
> manner consistent with NYSDEC regs, meaning that they have the right to 
> waterfowl hunt on Cayuga Lake as long they don't fire in the direction of a 
> dwelling that's less than 500' away (among other things).
> 
> They also may have been relying on the law that makes it illegal to harass 
> anyone that's hunting according to regulations.  They may have also been 
> unaware of the local ordinance that prohibits even the carrying of a firearm 
> within Stewart Park. Generally you can access public waters via public access 
> in NYS however municipalities may have more strict laws in place...something 
> a hunter is supposed to research and abide by.  
> 
> If they had accessed the lake somewhere else they would have legally been 
> able to hunt waterfowl just offshore from Stewart Park.  I'm pretty sure 
> about that but could be missing something.
> 
> I wasn't there but I can see how the confusion could happen especially if 
> hunters are given incorrect info by local law enforcement. It's also possible 
> they knew the local ordinance but ignored it.  Can't know for sure.  
> Conflicts are sure to arise on occasion between hunters and other users.  All 
> have rights.
> 
> David Diaz
> Trumansburg, NY
> 
> On Nov 12, 2015, at 11:06 PM, Dave Nutter  wrote:
> 
>> This afternoon I was enjoying Stewart Park - the Cayuga Waterfront Trail, 
>> the Fuertes Sanctuary (swan pond), the birds on the lake - as I often do. As 
>> I walked clockwise around the pond and came out from the Fuertes Sanctuary 
>> path near the lakeshore and toward the park road, I came face to face with 3 
>> guys carrying guns and dragging a small boat. I took a couple photos on my 
>> phone (I've been practicing lately, but they weren't very good) and I told 
>> them they weren't allowed to have guns in Stewart Park. They said lots of 
>> law enforcement agencies had been called on them before, which sort of 
>> contradicts what they also said about me being the only one who has given 
>> them a problem, and they were told it was okay if the guns weren't loaded. I 
>> said the ban was in the City Code, and maybe those police hadn't read that 
>> part. They were skeptical. They said they'd seen guys walk right out and 
>> shoot waterfowl from Stewart Park. I said I would've tried to stop those 
>> guys, too. They didn't want to leave, but seemed to think that having 
>> police, who had agreed with them before, resolve the issue would get me out 
>> of their hair. So I called 911 and explained the situation. The guys in camo 
>> agreed to wait for the cops, although meanwhile they did put their guns back 
>> in their pick-up trucks. That was nice, since kids were arriving next to 
>> them for rowing practice at the Cascadilla Boathouse, although I think the 
>> kids were unaware of what was going on. Also I was pretty uncomfortable 
>> confronting people with guns while waiting for police (also with guns) to 
>> tell me I was wrong. The guys asked me if I had been waiting for them. I 
>> said, no, I was just here a lot. A short while later IPD showed up in the 
>> form of a friendly woman who was smaller than the smallest of the 3 guys, 
>> and a lot smaller than the largest, who was considerably bigger than me. She 
>> seemed inclined to let them proceed, then took my ID info, and said I could 
>> leave. I didn't say that I had been enjoying the park and intended to 
>> continue. Instead I said I'd like to stay for the outcome, that I thought 
>> guns were banned in Stewart Park by the City Code, and if that's the case 
>> I'd like to see it enforced. She said she had to look it up, then took the 
>> guys' IDs, and got back in her cruiser to consult her computer monitor. 
>> Another IPD officer, a man, pulled up, got out, and stood by her window, not 
>> talking to me or the gun guys. After awhile she came out, gave the guys back 
>> their IDs and told them they had to go. I didn't hear their whole 
>> conversation but she gestured toward the boat ramp at Treman and they nodded 
>> and said they wouldn't park here anymore, although I bet they'll set up 
>> within conversational distance of the path around Fuertes. She then came 
>> over to me and repeatd their story of being told before that what they were 
>> doing was okay. I think that was my opportunity to insist they be ticketed, 
>> but I didn't. I thanked the officer for looking up the law, but she credited 
>> the other officer. After the cops drove off, the leader of the guys, the big 
>> one, said I had won today, but if this happened again

Re: [cayugabirds-l] guns at Stewart Park

[David Diaz]

My guess is that these hunters thought they were conducting themselves in a 
manner consistent with NYSDEC regs, meaning that they have the right to 
waterfowl hunt on Cayuga Lake as long they don't fire in the direction of a 
dwelling that's less than 500' away (among other things).

They also may have been relying on the law that makes it illegal to harass 
anyone that's hunting according to regulations.  They may have also been 
unaware of the local ordinance that prohibits even the carrying of a firearm 
within Stewart Park. Generally you can access public waters via public access 
in NYS however municipalities may have more strict laws in place...something a 
hunter is supposed to research and abide by.

If they had accessed the lake somewhere else they would have legally been able 
to hunt waterfowl just offshore from Stewart Park.  I'm pretty sure about that 
but could be missing something.

I wasn't there but I can see how the confusion could happen especially if 
hunters are given incorrect info by local law enforcement. It's also possible 
they knew the local ordinance but ignored it.  Can't know for sure.  Conflicts 
are sure to arise on occasion between hunters and other users.  All have rights.

David Diaz
Trumansburg, NY

On Nov 12, 2015, at 11:06 PM, Dave Nutter 
mailto:nutter.d...@mac.com>> wrote:

This afternoon I was enjoying Stewart Park - the Cayuga Waterfront Trail, the 
Fuertes Sanctuary (swan pond), the birds on the lake - as I often do. As I 
walked clockwise around the pond and came out from the Fuertes Sanctuary path 
near the lakeshore and toward the park road, I came face to face with 3 guys 
carrying guns and dragging a small boat. I took a couple photos on my phone 
(I've been practicing lately, but they weren't very good) and I told them they 
weren't allowed to have guns in Stewart Park. They said lots of law enforcement 
agencies had been called on them before, which sort of contradicts what they 
also said about me being the only one who has given them a problem, and they 
were told it was okay if the guns weren't loaded. I said the ban was in the 
City Code, and maybe those police hadn't read that part. They were skeptical. 
They said they'd seen guys walk right out and shoot waterfowl from Stewart 
Park. I said I would've tried to stop those guys, too. They didn't want to 
leave, but seemed to think that having police, who had agreed with them before, 
resolve the issue would get me out of their hair. So I called 911 and explained 
the situation. The guys in camo agreed to wait for the cops, although meanwhile 
they did put their guns back in their pick-up trucks. That was nice, since kids 
were arriving next to them for rowing practice at the Cascadilla Boathouse, 
although I think the kids were unaware of what was going on. Also I was pretty 
uncomfortable confronting people with guns while waiting for police (also with 
guns) to tell me I was wrong. The guys asked me if I had been waiting for them. 
I said, no, I was just here a lot. A short while later IPD showed up in the 
form of a friendly woman who was smaller than the smallest of the 3 guys, and a 
lot smaller than the largest, who was considerably bigger than me. She seemed 
inclined to let them proceed, then took my ID info, and said I could leave. I 
didn't say that I had been enjoying the park and intended to continue. Instead 
I said I'd like to stay for the outcome, that I thought guns were banned in 
Stewart Park by the City Code, and if that's the case I'd like to see it 
enforced. She said she had to look it up, then took the guys' IDs, and got back 
in her cruiser to consult her computer monitor. Another IPD officer, a man, 
pulled up, got out, and stood by her window, not talking to me or the gun guys. 
After awhile she came out, gave the guys back their IDs and told them they had 
to go. I didn't hear their whole conversation but she gestured toward the boat 
ramp at Treman and they nodded and said they wouldn't park here anymore, 
although I bet they'll set up within conversational distance of the path around 
Fuertes. She then came over to me and repeatd their story of being told before 
that what they were doing was okay. I think that was my opportunity to insist 
they be ticketed, but I didn't. I thanked the officer for looking up the law, 
but she credited the other officer. After the cops drove off, the leader of the 
guys, the big one, said I had won today, but if this happened again they'd call 
the cops on me for harassing them. I asked, if what happens? No answer to that.

So it has been established, at least among six people, that you are not allowed 
to bring your gun into Stewart Park, not even if you plan to shoot the ducks 
and geese. I wish I had also asked the officers to look up the boundaries of 
Stewart Park in the City Code, because Stewart Park extends north to the City 
Limit, which is a considerable distance out in the lake.

A lot of Buffleheads went about their business.

If

Re:[cayugabirds-l] Franklin's Gull on Cayuga Lake

[Jay McGowan]

At 2:29 perhaps the same FRANKLIN'S GULL flew north past Myers with two
Bonaparte's. It continued out of sight.

Jay
On Nov 13, 2015 2:24 PM, "Jay McGowan"  wrote:

> Earlier this afternoon Luke Seitz had an immature FRANKLIN'S GULL heading
> south from Taughannock State Park. Checks of Stewart and Myers in the last
> hour have proven fruitless, although I had an interesting bird far to the
> north from Stewart, but it stayed too distant to be sure of anything. This
> is part of an incredible incursion of Franklin's Gulls in the northeast
> happening today, with multiple reports from Lake Ontario and dozens on the
> coast. All gull flocks, whethet on the lake or in farm fields, should be
> checked over the next few days.
>
> Jay
>

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[cayugabirds-l] Franklin's Gull on Cayuga Lake

[Jay McGowan]

Earlier this afternoon Luke Seitz had an immature FRANKLIN'S GULL heading
south from Taughannock State Park. Checks of Stewart and Myers in the last
hour have proven fruitless, although I had an interesting bird far to the
north from Stewart, but it stayed too distant to be sure of anything. This
is part of an incredible incursion of Franklin's Gulls in the northeast
happening today, with multiple reports from Lake Ontario and dozens on the
coast. All gull flocks, whethet on the lake or in farm fields, should be
checked over the next few days.

Jay

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Re: [cayugabirds-l] Guns in the park

[Jim Borden]

Amen Gary. You said what I tried to say in a clearer manner

Jim

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 13, 2015, at 10:03 AM, Gary Kohlenberg  wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
>  
> Just a reminder, as a few seem to forget each year, of some key points:
>  
> Hunting is LEGAL.
>  
> Guns are LEGAL.
>  
> Harassing legal hunting activity is a CRIME.
>  
> Birding, hunting and other wholesome outdoor activities are NOT mutually 
> exclusive.
>  
> And one personal observation. The sight of a gun or a hunter will NOT damage 
> the delicate psyche of young adults.
>  
> Enjoy the outdoors everyone,
>  
> Gary
>  
> From: bounce-119892233-3493...@list.cornell.edu 
> [mailto:bounce-119892233-3493...@list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Rod Davis
> Sent: Friday, November 13, 2015 9:02 AM
> To: CAYUGABIRDS-L 
> Subject: [cayugabirds-l] Guns in the park
> Mr. Borden is correct. 
> The post by Mr. Nutter was not appropriate for this forum.
> The political tone was especially revolting.
> Posting the license numbers is so far over the top that I am disgusted.
> 
> I shall send a formal complaint to the list administrator. (I suppose I 
> should include the license plate number of Mr. Nutter with it.)
> Rod Davis
> 
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> Cayugabirds-L List Info:
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Re: [cayugabirds-l] guns at Stewart Park

[Geo Kloppel]

Hi Gary,

That's correct. The state has long reserved to itself the sole authority to 
regulate hunting. In the case of waterfowl hunting at Stewart Park, the state 
authority trumps any interpretation of the city ordinance that would ban 
hunting on or in the state-owned waters of the lake, even those waters that are 
described as comprising part of the park. 

However, the present incident involved hunters bringing firearms into Stewart 
Park in trucks, parking there, and carrying the firearms through the city-owned 
grounds of the park. With respect to that activity, the city ordinance does not 
appear to conflict with any state hunting regulations, so the city may well be 
within its rights to prohibit firearms on dry land there. And that would seem 
to be just what the IPD finally told the three hunters: go around and launch 
from Treman Marine Park, to avoid running afoul of the enforceable part of the 
city ordinance.

-Geo 

On Nov 13, 2015, at 1:16 PM, Gary Kohlenberg  wrote:

> When this issue was discussed last year Alicia Plotkin had apparently done 
> research on court rulings applicable to this. Begging her indulgence I copied 
> the response to Geo below in 2014.
>  
> In 2005 the Ithaca City Court ruled that only the State of New York can 
> regulations activities in or on Cayuga Lake because the State has retained  
> its rights to regulate the lake.  The court cited a Court of Appeals case 
> that ruled on jurisdiction over activity in Canandaigua Lake.  (The Court of 
> Appeals is the highest court in NYS.)  So the courts already have looked at 
> the question of jurisdiction over the lake and ruled against the application 
> of an ordinance enacted by municipalities or authorities to anything 
> happening in or on Cayuga Lake.  The City Court ruling was in the context of 
> an off leash dog swimming in the south end of the lake, and the court threw 
> out the case against the dog owner, saying the leash law didn't apply in 
> Cayuga Lake because the State has no leash law.  The same logic would apply 
> to the City's firearm ordinance if someone tried to ticket or arrest a hunter 
> working in or on the lake.
>  
> Alicia
>  
>  
>  
> On 1/8/2015 8:13 AM, Geo Kloppel wrote:
> > I guess the courts have the final say on the validity of Ithaca's 
> > ordinance. Concern about the cost and risks associated with jurisdictional 
> > disputes may be explanation enough for the lack of enforcement heretofore. 
> > But if the city begins to enforce its "No Hunting" ordinance, then DEC will 
> > have to decide whether to accept the situation or challenge it.
> > 
> > I wonder if there's a patch for this conflict available under ECL 11-0321, 
> > which authorizes DEC to set up "Restricted Areas" for a variety of 
> > purposes, including protection of public health and safety. Kayaked 
> > disrupting the hunt could pose a public safety concern...
> > 
> > -Geo
>  
>  
> From: bounce-119893064-3493...@list.cornell.edu 
> [mailto:bounce-119893064-3493...@list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of bob mcguire
> Sent: Friday, November 13, 2015 11:41 AM
> To: dave nutter 
> Cc: CAYUGABIRDS-L ; rmann...@twcny.rr.com
> Subject: Re: [cayugabirds-l] guns at Stewart Park
>  
> Thanks, Dave, for staying with this. The City code is clear:
>  
> No person shall carry, transport or possess any firearm of any nature in the 
> park, but this section shall not apply to duly constituted peace officers. 
> Limited use of archery equipment, supervised as part of a program provided by 
> the Ithaca Youth Bureau, shall be exempt from this provision.
>  
>  
> Chapter 336 (Parks and Recreation), Section II (Stewart Park)
>  
> Bob McGuire
> On Nov 12, 2015, at 11:05 PM, Dave Nutter  wrote:
> 
> 
> This afternoon I was enjoying Stewart Park - the Cayuga Waterfront Trail, the 
> Fuertes Sanctuary (swan pond), the birds on the lake - as I often do. As I 
> walked clockwise around the pond and came out from the Fuertes Sanctuary path 
> near the lakeshore and toward the park road, I came face to face with 3 guys 
> carrying guns and dragging a small boat. I took a couple photos on my phone 
> (I've been practicing lately, but they weren't very good) and I told them 
> they weren't allowed to have guns in Stewart Park. They said lots of law 
> enforcement agencies had been called on them before, which sort of 
> contradicts what they also said about me being the only one who has given 
> them a problem, and they were told it was okay if the guns weren't loaded. I 
> said the ban was in the City Code, and maybe those police hadn't read that 
> part. They were skeptical. They said they'd seen guys walk right out and 
> shoot waterfowl from Stewart Park. I said I would've tried to stop those 
> guys, too. They didn't want to leave, but seemed to think that having police, 
> who had agreed with them before, resolve the issue would get me out of their 
> hair. So I called 911 and explained the situation. The guys in camo agreed to 
> wait for 

Re: [cayugabirds-l] guns at Stewart Park

[Peter]

Dave wrote:
"After the cops drove off, the leader of the guys, the big one, said I 
had won today, but if this happened again they'd call the cops on me for 
harassing them.

I asked, if what happens?"

Great come-back Dave. I guess they don't understand that if they obey 
the law...there shouldn't be a "next time".

Much quicker than I would have been.

Pete Saracino

On 11/13/2015 11:41 AM, bob mcguire wrote:
After the cops drove off, the leader of the guys, the big one, said I 
had won today, but if this happened again they'd call the cops on me 
for harassing them. I asked, if what happens? No answer to that. 



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RE: [cayugabirds-l] guns at Stewart Park

[Gary Kohlenberg]

When this issue was discussed last year Alicia Plotkin had apparently done 
research on court rulings applicable to this. Begging her indulgence I copied 
the response to Geo below in 2014.



In 2005 the Ithaca City Court ruled that only the State of New York can 
regulations activities in or on Cayuga Lake because the State has retained  its 
rights to regulate the lake.  The court cited a Court of Appeals case that 
ruled on jurisdiction over activity in Canandaigua Lake.  (The Court of Appeals 
is the highest court in NYS.)  So the courts already have looked at the 
question of jurisdiction over the lake and ruled against the application of an 
ordinance enacted by municipalities or authorities to anything happening in or 
on Cayuga Lake.  The City Court ruling was in the context of an off leash dog 
swimming in the south end of the lake, and the court threw out the case against 
the dog owner, saying the leash law didn't apply in Cayuga Lake because the 
State has no leash law.  The same logic would apply to the City's firearm 
ordinance if someone tried to ticket or arrest a hunter working in or on the 
lake.



Alicia







On 1/8/2015 8:13 AM, Geo Kloppel wrote:

> I guess the courts have the final say on the validity of Ithaca's ordinance. 
> Concern about the cost and risks associated with jurisdictional disputes may 
> be explanation enough for the lack of enforcement heretofore. But if the city 
> begins to enforce its "No Hunting" ordinance, then DEC will have to decide 
> whether to accept the situation or challenge it.

>

> I wonder if there's a patch for this conflict available under ECL 11-0321, 
> which authorizes DEC to set up "Restricted Areas" for a variety of purposes, 
> including protection of public health and safety. Kayaked disrupting the hunt 
> could pose a public safety concern...

>

> -Geo


From: bounce-119893064-3493...@list.cornell.edu 
[mailto:bounce-119893064-3493...@list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of bob mcguire
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2015 11:41 AM
To: dave nutter 
Cc: CAYUGABIRDS-L ; rmann...@twcny.rr.com
Subject: Re: [cayugabirds-l] guns at Stewart Park

Thanks, Dave, for staying with this. The City code is clear:

No person shall carry, transport or possess any firearm of any nature in the 
park, but this section shall not apply to duly constituted peace officers. 
Limited use of archery equipment, supervised as part of a program provided by 
the Ithaca Youth Bureau, shall be exempt from this provision.


Chapter 336 (Parks and Recreation), Section II (Stewart Park)

Bob McGuire
On Nov 12, 2015, at 11:05 PM, Dave Nutter 
mailto:nutter.d...@mac.com>> wrote:


This afternoon I was enjoying Stewart Park - the Cayuga Waterfront Trail, the 
Fuertes Sanctuary (swan pond), the birds on the lake - as I often do. As I 
walked clockwise around the pond and came out from the Fuertes Sanctuary path 
near the lakeshore and toward the park road, I came face to face with 3 guys 
carrying guns and dragging a small boat. I took a couple photos on my phone 
(I've been practicing lately, but they weren't very good) and I told them they 
weren't allowed to have guns in Stewart Park. They said lots of law enforcement 
agencies had been called on them before, which sort of contradicts what they 
also said about me being the only one who has given them a problem, and they 
were told it was okay if the guns weren't loaded. I said the ban was in the 
City Code, and maybe those police hadn't read that part. They were skeptical. 
They said they'd seen guys walk right out and shoot waterfowl from Stewart 
Park. I said I would've tried to stop those guys, too. They didn't want to 
leave, but seemed to think that having police, who had agreed with them before, 
resolve the issue would get me out of their hair. So I called 911 and explained 
the situation. The guys in camo agreed to wait for the cops, although meanwhile 
they did put their guns back in their pick-up trucks. That was nice, since kids 
were arriving next to them for rowing practice at the Cascadilla Boathouse, 
although I think the kids were unaware of what was going on. Also I was pretty 
uncomfortable confronting people with guns while waiting for police (also with 
guns) to tell me I was wrong. The guys asked me if I had been waiting for them. 
I said, no, I was just here a lot. A short while later IPD showed up in the 
form of a friendly woman who was smaller than the smallest of the 3 guys, and a 
lot smaller than the largest, who was considerably bigger than me. She seemed 
inclined to let them proceed, then took my ID info, and said I could leave. I 
didn't say that I had been enjoying the park and intended to continue. Instead 
I said I'd like to stay for the outcome, that I thought guns were banned in 
Stewart Park by the City Code, and if that's the case I'd like to see it 
enforced. She said she had to look it up, then took the guys' IDs, and got back 
in her cruiser to consult her computer monitor. Another IPD officer

Re: [cayugabirds-l] guns at Stewart Park

[bob mcguire]

Thanks, Dave, for staying with this. The City code is clear:

No person shall carry, transport or possess any firearm of any nature in the 
park, but this section shall not apply to duly constituted peace officers. 
Limited use of archery equipment, supervised as part of a program provided by 
the Ithaca Youth Bureau, shall be exempt from this provision.


Chapter 336 (Parks and Recreation), Section II (Stewart Park)

Bob McGuire
On Nov 12, 2015, at 11:05 PM, Dave Nutter  wrote:

> This afternoon I was enjoying Stewart Park - the Cayuga Waterfront Trail, the 
> Fuertes Sanctuary (swan pond), the birds on the lake - as I often do. As I 
> walked clockwise around the pond and came out from the Fuertes Sanctuary path 
> near the lakeshore and toward the park road, I came face to face with 3 guys 
> carrying guns and dragging a small boat. I took a couple photos on my phone 
> (I've been practicing lately, but they weren't very good) and I told them 
> they weren't allowed to have guns in Stewart Park. They said lots of law 
> enforcement agencies had been called on them before, which sort of 
> contradicts what they also said about me being the only one who has given 
> them a problem, and they were told it was okay if the guns weren't loaded. I 
> said the ban was in the City Code, and maybe those police hadn't read that 
> part. They were skeptical. They said they'd seen guys walk right out and 
> shoot waterfowl from Stewart Park. I said I would've tried to stop those 
> guys, too. They didn't want to leave, but seemed to think that having police, 
> who had agreed with them before, resolve the issue would get me out of their 
> hair. So I called 911 and explained the situation. The guys in camo agreed to 
> wait for the cops, although meanwhile they did put their guns back in their 
> pick-up trucks. That was nice, since kids were arriving next to them for 
> rowing practice at the Cascadilla Boathouse, although I think the kids were 
> unaware of what was going on. Also I was pretty uncomfortable confronting 
> people with guns while waiting for police (also with guns) to tell me I was 
> wrong. The guys asked me if I had been waiting for them. I said, no, I was 
> just here a lot. A short while later IPD showed up in the form of a friendly 
> woman who was smaller than the smallest of the 3 guys, and a lot smaller than 
> the largest, who was considerably bigger than me. She seemed inclined to let 
> them proceed, then took my ID info, and said I could leave. I didn't say that 
> I had been enjoying the park and intended to continue. Instead I said I'd 
> like to stay for the outcome, that I thought guns were banned in Stewart Park 
> by the City Code, and if that's the case I'd like to see it enforced. She 
> said she had to look it up, then took the guys' IDs, and got back in her 
> cruiser to consult her computer monitor. Another IPD officer, a man, pulled 
> up, got out, and stood by her window, not talking to me or the gun guys. 
> After awhile she came out, gave the guys back their IDs and told them they 
> had to go. I didn't hear their whole conversation but she gestured toward the 
> boat ramp at Treman and they nodded and said they wouldn't park here anymore, 
> although I bet they'll set up within conversational distance of the path 
> around Fuertes. She then came over to me and repeatd their story of being 
> told before that what they were doing was okay. I think that was my 
> opportunity to insist they be ticketed, but I didn't. I thanked the officer 
> for looking up the law, but she credited the other officer. After the cops 
> drove off, the leader of the guys, the big one, said I had won today, but if 
> this happened again they'd call the cops on me for harassing them. I asked, 
> if what happens? No answer to that. 
> 
> So it has been established, at least among six people, that you are not 
> allowed to bring your gun into Stewart Park, not even if you plan to shoot 
> the ducks and geese. I wish I had also asked the officers to look up the 
> boundaries of Stewart Park in the City Code, because Stewart Park extends 
> north to the City Limit, which is a considerable distance out in the lake.
> 
> A lot of Buffleheads went about their business.  
> 
> If you see a maroon Ford pickup 71642 KA or a dark gray Silverado pickup GTL 
> 7095 parked in Stewart Park while there are gunners in camo standing in the 
> water nearby, perhaps with a small boat for their stuff, you can ask IPD to 
> talk to them about whterh they brought their guns through the park after 
> being told not to. 
> --Dave Nutter
> 
> --
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Re: [cayugabirds-l] guns at Stewart Park

[Geo Kloppel]

If it's true that the issue has already been resolved (last year, as Ken 
suggests), perhaps the city should take a cue from other regional entities (the 
State Parks, the Finger Lakes Land Trust, the Finger Lakes Trail Conference, 
the Arnot Teaching Forest, etc.), and just post the rule (whatever it may be) 
at the park for all to see. 

Geo Kloppel

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Re: [cayugabirds-l] guns at Stewart Park

[Elaina M. McCartney]

Here is a non-political early-morning photograph taken from the densely 
populated southwest shore of Cayuga Lake 24 October 2015 showing rowers heading 
out from the inlet in a northwest direction past my house for their usual 
morning practice.  The occupants in the boat to the right had set up elaborate 
decoys and camouflage in the dark in front of my house, with the shooting 
direction assumed to be across what would be the path of the rowers (shooting 
pointed away from the neighborhood houses and Treman Park of course).  The 
rowers froze when they saw the hunters, and subsequently the hunters packed up 
their decoys and departed when they saw the rowers.  Visibility was poor, but 
the rowers’ bow light can be seen.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/emccartney/22451966336/



From: "Christopher T. Tessaglia-Hymes" 
mailto:c...@cornell.edu>>
Reply-To: "Christopher T. Tessaglia-Hymes" 
mailto:c...@cornell.edu>>
Date: Fri, 13 Nov 2015 13:46:34 +
To: CAYUGABIRDS-L 
mailto:cayugabird...@list.cornell.edu>>
Cc: Dave Nutter mailto:nutter.d...@mac.com>>, Laura 
Stenzler mailto:l...@cornell.edu>>
Subject: Re: [cayugabirds-l] guns at Stewart Park

Dave, thanks for sharing your encounter with the List, because this potentially 
affects anyone who intends to go birding at Stewart Park or in the nearby 
areas, if this kind of activity is seasonally permitted from such a widely and 
publicly used space.

Does the Cayuga Bird Club have an official position on this and other past 
similar situations at the South shore of Cayuga Lake? As Laura suggested, 
perhaps a letter (from the Cayuga Bird Club) to the City of Ithaca 
representative(s) whose area(s) includes the disputed region, a letter to the 
Mayor, and a discussion placed on the agenda during one of the City 
Administration public meetings, would help clarify the City’s stance on this 
issue and possibly put forth an opportunity for official change in the future?

I believe that we, as birders, are not all blatantly opposed to hunting, but I 
do think there’s a time and place for that sport – Stewart Park, and the South 
end of Cayuga Lake in general, does not seem like the right place at any time.

Sincerely,
Chris T-H


On Nov 13, 2015, at 7:54 AM, Laura Stenzler 
mailto:l...@cornell.edu>> wrote:


Dave,

It is great that you followed through on all of this! It sounds like an 
intimidating situation, but you did not back down.   I think it would be 
worthwhile to share your experience with your city representative and the 
Major. I just read in the Ithaca Journal this morning that all Ithaca police 
officers are now wearing and using body cameras (as of Nov. 3) which must be 
turned on when they respond to a call.  So there is a good official record of 
what occurred (we hope).

   Good for you!

Laura


Laura Stenzler
l...@cornell.edu



From:bounce-119891413-8866...@list.cornell.edu
 
mailto:bounce-119891413-8866...@list.cornell.edu>>
 on behalf of Dave Nutter mailto:nutter.d...@mac.com>>
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 11:05 PM
To: CAYUGABIRDS-L
Cc: rmann...@twcny.rr.com
Subject: [cayugabirds-l] guns at Stewart Park

This afternoon I was enjoying Stewart Park - the Cayuga Waterfront Trail, the 
Fuertes Sanctuary (swan pond), the birds on the lake - as I often do. As I 
walked clockwise around the pond and came out from the Fuertes Sanctuary path 
near the lakeshore and toward the park road, I came face to face with 3 guys 
carrying guns and dragging a small boat. I took a couple photos on my phone 
(I've been practicing lately, but they weren't very good) and I told them they 
weren't allowed to have guns in Stewart Park. They said lots of law enforcement 
agencies had been called on them before, which sort of contradicts what they 
also said about me being the only one who has given them a problem, and they 
were told it was okay if the guns weren't loaded. I said the ban was in the 
City Code, and maybe those police hadn't read that part. They were skeptical. 
They said they'd seen guys walk right out and shoot waterfowl from Stewart 
Park. I said I would've tried to stop those guys, too. They didn't want to 
leave, but seemed to think that having police, who had agreed with them before, 
resolve the issue would get me out of their hair. So I called 911 and explained 
the situation. The guys in camo agreed to wait for the cops, although meanwhile 
they did put their guns back in their pick-up trucks. That was nice, since kids 
were arriving next to them for rowing practice at the Cascadilla Boathouse, 
although I think the kids were unaware of what was going on. Also I was pretty 
uncomfortable confronting people with guns while waiting for police (also with 
guns) to tell me I was wrong. The guys asked me if I had been waiting for them. 
I said, no, I was just here a lot. A short while later IPD showed up in the 
f

Re: [cayugabirds-l] guns at Stewart Park

[Carl Steckler]

Yet another good reason to buy a Duck Stamp. That way you can show your 
support for conservation and that you are not against their activity per 
say, just the location. I am willing to bet that if you showed that you 
too had a duck stamp and explained your concern that this is a city park 
things would have been a lot more pleasant and might have made an 
impression that we birders are not just a bunch of anti-hunting 
treehuggers . IMHO

Carl Steckler

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[cayugabirds-l] Turkey Vultures

[Meena Madhav Haribal]

Hi all,
Turkey vultures in this stiff west wind are enjoying themselves I think. They 
are flying across the wind at 90 deg and falling a free fall and then arrest 
themselves  and again dribble down in the wind and back.  So it is such fun to 
watch their behavior over computer screen.

As for the serious discussion that is happening, I support Ken's email about 
resolving the issues and I also appreciate what Dave did. I am for all things 
alive!

Also this forum is to discuss about the live birds and anything that is related 
to live birds in the Cayuga lake basin (with an occasional foray to outside 
CLB), so if hunters on this list serve don't like the majority of this listerve 
members' thoughts then perhaps they should consider joining the more 
appropriate lists that covers their interest, so they don't have to read topics 
they don't like or if they want to continue on the list then they should just 
delete those emails.

Cheers
Meena

Dr. Meena Haribal
409, Boyce Thompson Institute (BTI)
Ithaca NY 14853 USA
Email: m...@cornell.edu


http://haribal.org/
http://meenaharibal.blogspot.com/
Ithaca area moths: http://tinyurl.com/kn6q2p4
Dragonfly book sample pages: http://www.haribal.org/140817samplebook.pdf



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RE: [cayugabirds-l] Guns in the park

[Gary Kohlenberg]

Hi all,

Just a reminder, as a few seem to forget each year, of some key points:

Hunting is LEGAL.

Guns are LEGAL.

Harassing legal hunting activity is a CRIME.

Birding, hunting and other wholesome outdoor activities are NOT mutually 
exclusive.

And one personal observation. The sight of a gun or a hunter will NOT damage 
the delicate psyche of young adults.

Enjoy the outdoors everyone,

Gary

From: bounce-119892233-3493...@list.cornell.edu 
[mailto:bounce-119892233-3493...@list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Rod Davis
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2015 9:02 AM
To: CAYUGABIRDS-L 
Subject: [cayugabirds-l] Guns in the park

Mr. Borden is correct.
The post by Mr. Nutter was not appropriate for this forum.
The political tone was especially revolting.
Posting the license numbers is so far over the top that I am disgusted.

I shall send a formal complaint to the list administrator. (I suppose I should 
include the license plate number of Mr. Nutter with it.)
Rod Davis
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Re: [cayugabirds-l] Guns in the park

[Linda Orkin]

I stand in support of Dave Nutter's account of illegal carrying of guns in a 
park where birders and other non-consumptive users congregate. It is important 
to alert people to a potentially dangerous situation. 

I can see this thread is quickly going to degenerate into pro versus con but I 
still feel compelled to support this

Linda Orkin
Ithaca, NY

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 13, 2015, at 9:01 AM, Rod Davis  wrote:
> 
> Mr. Borden is correct. 
> The post by Mr. Nutter was not appropriate for this forum.
> The political tone was especially revolting.
> Posting the license numbers is so far over the top that I am disgusted.
> 
> I shall send a formal complaint to the list administrator. (I suppose I 
> should include the license plate number of Mr. Nutter with it.)
> Rod Davis
> 
> --
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Re: [cayugabirds-l] guns at Stewart Park

[Kenneth V. Rosenberg]

Hi all,

Before this annual listserv discussion escalates once again, I would like to 
point out the whole issue of hunting within the Ithaca city limits was 
discussed with the Mayor and city government last winter and, from what I 
heard, resolved. John Dennis — Ithaca resident and birder — led the effort to 
look into what laws were on the books and how they could be enforced. If John 
is on this List, perhaps he could explain the outcome — otherwise I am copying 
him with this information in hopes of a response. Clearly, there has not been 
clear communication to Ithaca police officers, to the hunter, or to the general 
public about any of this.

In my opinion, though, the last thing we want to see is an escalation of the 
kind of conflict that occurred in Stewart Park, and the perception of a birder 
vs. hunter mentality, which would be highly detrimental to our shared goal of 
wildlife and habitat conservation in the region. I would like to see some sort 
of public forum, hosted by the city, that would foster an open discussion among 
the birding and hunting, and wildlife management communities to reach a better 
mutual understanding of all the issues. I have offered to participate (not help 
organize) such a forum.

KEN


Kenneth V. Rosenberg
Conservation Science Program
Cornell Lab of Ornithology
Office: 607-254-2412
cell: 607-342-4594
k...@cornell.edu

On Nov 13, 2015, at 8:46 AM, Christopher T. Tessaglia-Hymes 
mailto:c...@cornell.edu>> wrote:

Dave, thanks for sharing your encounter with the List, because this potentially 
affects anyone who intends to go birding at Stewart Park or in the nearby 
areas, if this kind of activity is seasonally permitted from such a widely and 
publicly used space.

Does the Cayuga Bird Club have an official position on this and other past 
similar situations at the South shore of Cayuga Lake? As Laura suggested, 
perhaps a letter (from the Cayuga Bird Club) to the City of Ithaca 
representative(s) whose area(s) includes the disputed region, a letter to the 
Mayor, and a discussion placed on the agenda during one of the City 
Administration public meetings, would help clarify the City’s stance on this 
issue and possibly put forth an opportunity for official change in the future?

I believe that we, as birders, are not all blatantly opposed to hunting, but I 
do think there’s a time and place for that sport – Stewart Park, and the South 
end of Cayuga Lake in general, does not seem like the right place at any time.

Sincerely,
Chris T-H


On Nov 13, 2015, at 7:54 AM, Laura Stenzler 
mailto:l...@cornell.edu>> wrote:

Dave,
It is great that you followed through on all of this! It sounds like an 
intimidating situation, but you did not back down.   I think it would be 
worthwhile to share your experience with your city representative and the 
Major. I just read in the Ithaca Journal this morning that all Ithaca police 
officers are now wearing and using body cameras (as of Nov. 3) which must be 
turned on when they respond to a call.  So there is a good official record of 
what occurred (we hope).
   Good for you!
Laura

Laura Stenzler
l...@cornell.edu



From: 
bounce-119891413-8866...@list.cornell.edu
 
mailto:bounce-119891413-8866...@list.cornell.edu>>
 on behalf of Dave Nutter mailto:nutter.d...@mac.com>>
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 11:05 PM
To: CAYUGABIRDS-L
Cc: rmann...@twcny.rr.com
Subject: [cayugabirds-l] guns at Stewart Park

This afternoon I was enjoying Stewart Park - the Cayuga Waterfront Trail, the 
Fuertes Sanctuary (swan pond), the birds on the lake - as I often do. As I 
walked clockwise around the pond and came out from the Fuertes Sanctuary path 
near the lakeshore and toward the park road, I came face to face with 3 guys 
carrying guns and dragging a small boat. I took a couple photos on my phone 
(I've been practicing lately, but they weren't very good) and I told them they 
weren't allowed to have guns in Stewart Park. They said lots of law enforcement 
agencies had been called on them before, which sort of contradicts what they 
also said about me being the only one who has given them a problem, and they 
were told it was okay if the guns weren't loaded. I said the ban was in the 
City Code, and maybe those police hadn't read that part. They were skeptical. 
They said they'd seen guys walk right out and shoot waterfowl from Stewart 
Park. I said I would've tried to stop those guys, too. They didn't want to 
leave, but seemed to think that having police, who had agreed with them before, 
resolve the issue would get me out of their hair. So I called 911 and explained 
the situation. The guys in camo agreed to wait for the cops, although meanwhile 
they did put their guns back in their pick-up trucks. That was nice, since kids 
were arriving next to them for rowing practice at the Cas

Re: [cayugabirds-l] guns at Stewart Park

[Deirdre Anderson]

Although I am no longer an Ithaca resident, it warms my heart to see that
as always, Dave is looking out for his fellow birders and the citizens of
Ithaca by standing up to those men. Keep up the good work Dave and please
keep posting your birding adventures! They make me feel like I am back
birding alongside with you and enjoying the birds!

Deirdre Anderson

PS. For all those who have voiced their dislike of Dave's post, why don't
you pick up your binoculars, go birding and for goodness' sakes, relax!

On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 11:05 PM, Dave Nutter  wrote:

> This afternoon I was enjoying Stewart Park - the Cayuga Waterfront Trail,
> the Fuertes Sanctuary (swan pond), the birds on the lake - as I often do.
> As I walked clockwise around the pond and came out from the Fuertes
> Sanctuary path near the lakeshore and toward the park road, I came face to
> face with 3 guys carrying guns and dragging a small boat. I took a couple
> photos on my phone (I've been practicing lately, but they weren't very
> good) and I told them they weren't allowed to have guns in Stewart Park.
> They said lots of law enforcement agencies had been called on them before,
> which sort of contradicts what they also said about me being the only one
> who has given them a problem, and they were told it was okay if the guns
> weren't loaded. I said the ban was in the City Code, and maybe those police
> hadn't read that part. They were skeptical. They said they'd seen guys walk
> right out and shoot waterfowl from Stewart Park. I said I would've tried to
> stop those guys, too. They didn't want to leave, but seemed to think that
> having police, who had agreed with them before, resolve the issue would get
> me out of their hair. So I called 911 and explained the situation. The guys
> in camo agreed to wait for the cops, although meanwhile they did put their
> guns back in their pick-up trucks. That was nice, since kids were arriving
> next to them for rowing practice at the Cascadilla Boathouse, although I
> think the kids were unaware of what was going on. Also I was pretty
> uncomfortable confronting people with guns while waiting for police (also
> with guns) to tell me I was wrong. The guys asked me if I had been waiting
> for them. I said, no, I was just here a lot. A short while later IPD showed
> up in the form of a friendly woman who was smaller than the smallest of the
> 3 guys, and a lot smaller than the largest, who was considerably bigger
> than me. She seemed inclined to let them proceed, then took my ID info, and
> said I could leave. I didn't say that I had been enjoying the park and
> intended to continue. Instead I said I'd like to stay for the outcome, that
> I thought guns were banned in Stewart Park by the City Code, and if that's
> the case I'd like to see it enforced. She said she had to look it up, then
> took the guys' IDs, and got back in her cruiser to consult her computer
> monitor. Another IPD officer, a man, pulled up, got out, and stood by her
> window, not talking to me or the gun guys. After awhile she came out, gave
> the guys back their IDs and told them they had to go. I didn't hear their
> whole conversation but she gestured toward the boat ramp at Treman and they
> nodded and said they wouldn't park here anymore, although I bet they'll set
> up within conversational distance of the path around Fuertes. She then came
> over to me and repeatd their story of being told before that what they were
> doing was okay. I think that was my opportunity to insist they be ticketed,
> but I didn't. I thanked the officer for looking up the law, but she
> credited the other officer. After the cops drove off, the leader of the
> guys, the big one, said I had won today, but if this happened again they'd
> call the cops on me for harassing them. I asked, if what happens? No answer
> to that.
>
> So it has been established, at least among six people, that you are not
> allowed to bring your gun into Stewart Park, not even if you plan to shoot
> the ducks and geese. I wish I had also asked the officers to look up the
> boundaries of Stewart Park in the City Code, because Stewart Park extends
> north to the City Limit, which is a considerable distance out in the lake.
>
> A lot of Buffleheads went about their business.
>
> If you see a maroon Ford pickup 71642 KA or a dark gray Silverado pickup
> GTL 7095 parked in Stewart Park while there are gunners in camo standing in
> the water nearby, perhaps with a small boat for their stuff, you can ask
> IPD to talk to them about whterh they brought their guns through the park
> after being told not to.
>
> --Dave Nutter
>
>
> --
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> 
> *Archives:*
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> 

[cayugabirds-l] Guns in the park

[Rod Davis]

Mr. Borden is correct.
The post by Mr. Nutter was not appropriate for this forum.
The political tone was especially revolting.
Posting the license numbers is so far over the top that I am disgusted.

I shall send a formal complaint to the list administrator. (I suppose I
should include the license plate number of Mr. Nutter with it.)
Rod Davis

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Re: [cayugabirds-l] guns at Stewart Park

[Christopher T. Tessaglia-Hymes]

Dave, thanks for sharing your encounter with the List, because this potentially 
affects anyone who intends to go birding at Stewart Park or in the nearby 
areas, if this kind of activity is seasonally permitted from such a widely and 
publicly used space.

Does the Cayuga Bird Club have an official position on this and other past 
similar situations at the South shore of Cayuga Lake? As Laura suggested, 
perhaps a letter (from the Cayuga Bird Club) to the City of Ithaca 
representative(s) whose area(s) includes the disputed region, a letter to the 
Mayor, and a discussion placed on the agenda during one of the City 
Administration public meetings, would help clarify the City’s stance on this 
issue and possibly put forth an opportunity for official change in the future?

I believe that we, as birders, are not all blatantly opposed to hunting, but I 
do think there’s a time and place for that sport – Stewart Park, and the South 
end of Cayuga Lake in general, does not seem like the right place at any time.

Sincerely,
Chris T-H


On Nov 13, 2015, at 7:54 AM, Laura Stenzler 
mailto:l...@cornell.edu>> wrote:


Dave,

It is great that you followed through on all of this! It sounds like an 
intimidating situation, but you did not back down.   I think it would be 
worthwhile to share your experience with your city representative and the 
Major. I just read in the Ithaca Journal this morning that all Ithaca police 
officers are now wearing and using body cameras (as of Nov. 3) which must be 
turned on when they respond to a call.  So there is a good official record of 
what occurred (we hope).

   Good for you!

Laura


Laura Stenzler
l...@cornell.edu



From: 
bounce-119891413-8866...@list.cornell.edu
 
mailto:bounce-119891413-8866...@list.cornell.edu>>
 on behalf of Dave Nutter mailto:nutter.d...@mac.com>>
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 11:05 PM
To: CAYUGABIRDS-L
Cc: rmann...@twcny.rr.com
Subject: [cayugabirds-l] guns at Stewart Park

This afternoon I was enjoying Stewart Park - the Cayuga Waterfront Trail, the 
Fuertes Sanctuary (swan pond), the birds on the lake - as I often do. As I 
walked clockwise around the pond and came out from the Fuertes Sanctuary path 
near the lakeshore and toward the park road, I came face to face with 3 guys 
carrying guns and dragging a small boat. I took a couple photos on my phone 
(I've been practicing lately, but they weren't very good) and I told them they 
weren't allowed to have guns in Stewart Park. They said lots of law enforcement 
agencies had been called on them before, which sort of contradicts what they 
also said about me being the only one who has given them a problem, and they 
were told it was okay if the guns weren't loaded. I said the ban was in the 
City Code, and maybe those police hadn't read that part. They were skeptical. 
They said they'd seen guys walk right out and shoot waterfowl from Stewart 
Park. I said I would've tried to stop those guys, too. They didn't want to 
leave, but seemed to think that having police, who had agreed with them before, 
resolve the issue would get me out of their hair. So I called 911 and explained 
the situation. The guys in camo agreed to wait for the cops, although meanwhile 
they did put their guns back in their pick-up trucks. That was nice, since kids 
were arriving next to them for rowing practice at the Cascadilla Boathouse, 
although I think the kids were unaware of what was going on. Also I was pretty 
uncomfortable confronting people with guns while waiting for police (also with 
guns) to tell me I was wrong. The guys asked me if I had been waiting for them. 
I said, no, I was just here a lot. A short while later IPD showed up in the 
form of a friendly woman who was smaller than the smallest of the 3 guys, and a 
lot smaller than the largest, who was considerably bigger than me. She seemed 
inclined to let them proceed, then took my ID info, and said I could leave. I 
didn't say that I had been enjoying the park and intended to continue. Instead 
I said I'd like to stay for the outcome, that I thought guns were banned in 
Stewart Park by the City Code, and if that's the case I'd like to see it 
enforced. She said she had to look it up, then took the guys' IDs, and got back 
in her cruiser to consult her computer monitor. Another IPD officer, a man, 
pulled up, got out, and stood by her window, not talking to me or the gun guys. 
After awhile she came out, gave the guys back their IDs and told them they had 
to go. I didn't hear their whole conversation but she gestured toward the boat 
ramp at Treman and they nodded and said they wouldn't park here anymore, 
although I bet they'll set up within conversational distance of the path around 
Fuertes. She then came over to me and repeatd their story of being told before 
that what they were doing was okay. I think that was my o

Re: [cayugabirds-l] guns at Stewart Park

[Jim Borden]

I have an issue with this being on the bird list--each of us may I have 
our phobias and this list is no place for politics--the tenor of the 
description of the incident makes it political for methe mere 
mention of guns around the kids is a biased statement all by itself.

On 11/13/2015 7:54 AM, Laura Stenzler wrote:
>
> Dave,
>
> It is great that you followed through on all of this! It sounds like 
> an intimidating situation, but you did not back down.   I think it 
> would be worthwhile to share your experience with your city 
> representative and the Major. I just read in the Ithaca Journal this 
> morning that all Ithaca police officers are now wearing and using body 
> cameras (as of Nov. 3) which must be turned on when they respond to a 
> call.  So there is a good official record of what occurred (we hope).
>
>Good for you!
>
> Laura
>
>
> Laura Stenzler
> l...@cornell.edu
>
>
> 
> *From:* bounce-119891413-8866...@list.cornell.edu 
>  on behalf of Dave Nutter 
> 
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 12, 2015 11:05 PM
> *To:* CAYUGABIRDS-L
> *Cc:* rmann...@twcny.rr.com
> *Subject:* [cayugabirds-l] guns at Stewart Park
> This afternoon I was enjoying Stewart Park - the Cayuga Waterfront 
> Trail, the Fuertes Sanctuary (swan pond), the birds on the lake - as I 
> often do. As I walked clockwise around the pond and came out from the 
> Fuertes Sanctuary path near the lakeshore and toward the park road, I 
> came face to face with 3 guys carrying guns and dragging a small boat. 
> I took a couple photos on my phone (I've been practicing lately, but 
> they weren't very good) and I told them they weren't allowed to have 
> guns in Stewart Park. They said lots of law enforcement agencies had 
> been called on them before, which sort of contradicts what they also 
> said about me being the only one who has given them a problem, and 
> they were told it was okay if the guns weren't loaded. I said the ban 
> was in the City Code, and maybe those police hadn't read that part. 
> They were skeptical. They said they'd seen guys walk right out and 
> shoot waterfowl from Stewart Park. I said I would've tried to stop 
> those guys, too. They didn't want to leave, but seemed to think that 
> having police, who had agreed with them before, resolve the issue 
> would get me out of their hair. So I called 911 and explained the 
> situation. The guys in camo agreed to wait for the cops, although 
> meanwhile they did put their guns back in their pick-up trucks. That 
> was nice, since kids were arriving next to them for rowing practice at 
> the Cascadilla Boathouse, although I think the kids were unaware of 
> what was going on. Also I was pretty uncomfortable confronting people 
> with guns while waiting for police (also with guns) to tell me I was 
> wrong. The guys asked me if I had been waiting for them. I said, no, I 
> was just here a lot. A short while later IPD showed up in the form of 
> a friendly woman who was smaller than the smallest of the 3 guys, and 
> a lot smaller than the largest, who was considerably bigger than me. 
> She seemed inclined to let them proceed, then took my ID info, and 
> said I could leave. I didn't say that I had been enjoying the park and 
> intended to continue. Instead I said I'd like to stay for the outcome, 
> that I thought guns were banned in Stewart Park by the City Code, and 
> if that's the case I'd like to see it enforced. She said she had to 
> look it up, then took the guys' IDs, and got back in her cruiser to 
> consult her computer monitor. Another IPD officer, a man, pulled up, 
> got out, and stood by her window, not talking to me or the gun guys. 
> After awhile she came out, gave the guys back their IDs and told them 
> they had to go. I didn't hear their whole conversation but she 
> gestured toward the boat ramp at Treman and they nodded and said they 
> wouldn't park here anymore, although I bet they'll set up within 
> conversational distance of the path around Fuertes. She then came over 
> to me and repeatd their story of being told before that what they were 
> doing was okay. I think that was my opportunity to insist they be 
> ticketed, but I didn't. I thanked the officer for looking up the law, 
> but she credited the other officer. After the cops drove off, the 
> leader of the guys, the big one, said I had won today, but if this 
> happened again they'd call the cops on me for harassing them. I asked, 
> if what happens? No answer to that.
>
> So it has been established, at least among six people, that you are 
> not allowed to bring your gun into Stewart Park, not even if you plan 
> to shoot the ducks and geese. I wish I had also asked the officers to 
> look up the boundaries of Stewart Park in the City Code, because 
> Stewart Park extends north to the City Limit, which is a considerable 
> distance out in the lake.
>
> A lot of Buffleheads went about their business.
>
> I

Re: [cayugabirds-l] guns at Stewart Park

[Laura Stenzler]

Dave,

It is great that you followed through on all of this! It sounds like an 
intimidating situation, but you did not back down.   I think it would be 
worthwhile to share your experience with your city representative and the 
Major. I just read in the Ithaca Journal this morning that all Ithaca police 
officers are now wearing and using body cameras (as of Nov. 3) which must be 
turned on when they respond to a call.  So there is a good official record of 
what occurred (we hope).

   Good for you!

Laura


Laura Stenzler
l...@cornell.edu



From: bounce-119891413-8866...@list.cornell.edu 
 on behalf of Dave Nutter 

Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 11:05 PM
To: CAYUGABIRDS-L
Cc: rmann...@twcny.rr.com
Subject: [cayugabirds-l] guns at Stewart Park

This afternoon I was enjoying Stewart Park - the Cayuga Waterfront Trail, the 
Fuertes Sanctuary (swan pond), the birds on the lake - as I often do. As I 
walked clockwise around the pond and came out from the Fuertes Sanctuary path 
near the lakeshore and toward the park road, I came face to face with 3 guys 
carrying guns and dragging a small boat. I took a couple photos on my phone 
(I've been practicing lately, but they weren't very good) and I told them they 
weren't allowed to have guns in Stewart Park. They said lots of law enforcement 
agencies had been called on them before, which sort of contradicts what they 
also said about me being the only one who has given them a problem, and they 
were told it was okay if the guns weren't loaded. I said the ban was in the 
City Code, and maybe those police hadn't read that part. They were skeptical. 
They said they'd seen guys walk right out and shoot waterfowl from Stewart 
Park. I said I would've tried to stop those guys, too. They didn't want to 
leave, but seemed to think that having police, who had agreed with them before, 
resolve the issue would get me out of their hair. So I called 911 and explained 
the situation. The guys in camo agreed to wait for the cops, although meanwhile 
they did put their guns back in their pick-up trucks. That was nice, since kids 
were arriving next to them for rowing practice at the Cascadilla Boathouse, 
although I think the kids were unaware of what was going on. Also I was pretty 
uncomfortable confronting people with guns while waiting for police (also with 
guns) to tell me I was wrong. The guys asked me if I had been waiting for them. 
I said, no, I was just here a lot. A short while later IPD showed up in the 
form of a friendly woman who was smaller than the smallest of the 3 guys, and a 
lot smaller than the largest, who was considerably bigger than me. She seemed 
inclined to let them proceed, then took my ID info, and said I could leave. I 
didn't say that I had been enjoying the park and intended to continue. Instead 
I said I'd like to stay for the outcome, that I thought guns were banned in 
Stewart Park by the City Code, and if that's the case I'd like to see it 
enforced. She said she had to look it up, then took the guys' IDs, and got back 
in her cruiser to consult her computer monitor. Another IPD officer, a man, 
pulled up, got out, and stood by her window, not talking to me or the gun guys. 
After awhile she came out, gave the guys back their IDs and told them they had 
to go. I didn't hear their whole conversation but she gestured toward the boat 
ramp at Treman and they nodded and said they wouldn't park here anymore, 
although I bet they'll set up within conversational distance of the path around 
Fuertes. She then came over to me and repeatd their story of being told before 
that what they were doing was okay. I think that was my opportunity to insist 
they be ticketed, but I didn't. I thanked the officer for looking up the law, 
but she credited the other officer. After the cops drove off, the leader of the 
guys, the big one, said I had won today, but if this happened again they'd call 
the cops on me for harassing them. I asked, if what happens? No answer to that.

So it has been established, at least among six people, that you are not allowed 
to bring your gun into Stewart Park, not even if you plan to shoot the ducks 
and geese. I wish I had also asked the officers to look up the boundaries of 
Stewart Park in the City Code, because Stewart Park extends north to the City 
Limit, which is a considerable distance out in the lake.

A lot of Buffleheads went about their business.

If you see a maroon Ford pickup 71642 KA or a dark gray Silverado pickup GTL 
7095 parked in Stewart Park while there are gunners in camo standing in the 
water nearby, perhaps with a small boat for their stuff, you can ask IPD to 
talk to them about whterh they brought their guns through the park after being 
told not to.

--Dave Nutter

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[cayugabirds-l] Loon watch Trip tomorrow Nov 14

[Meena Madhav Haribal]

Weather forecast is for Northwest wind and low temperatures.  So hopefully we 
will have a decent flight tomorrow. Many loons have accumulated on the lake so 
earlier part of the morning might be better.


On Saturday, November 14, Wes Blauvelt will lead a Loon Watch at Taughannock 
State Park, from 7 am to 9 am. Every year, thousands of migrating Common Loons 
pass over Cayuga Lake on their way south. The numbers are especially 
concentrated shortly after dawn during the month of November. We will meet at 
the north end of Taughannock State Park, where Taughannock Creek enters the 
lake (we'll watch from south of the creek). If coming from Ithaca, enter the 
park (lake side) before crossing the bridge over Taughannock Creek and park at 
the north parking lot near the point.  Other migrating waterfowl, including 
Brant, Long-tailed Ducks and scoters may also be seen from this location. 
Participants should dress very warmly, as standing by the lake with a North 
breeze can be very cold.

For more information about these field trips, contact Wes Blauvelt at 
wwblauvelt at gmail.com or Meena Haribal at mmh3 at cornell. edu. Both field 
trips are open to all.





Meena Haribal
Ithaca NY 14850
42.429007,-76.47111
http://www.haribal.org/
http://meenaharibal.blogspot.com/
Ithaca area moths: https://plus.google.com/118047473426099383469/posts
Dragonfly book sample pages: http://www.haribal.org/dragonflies/samplebook.pdf




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