USA vintage computing trip

[Evan Koblentz via cctalk]

Hi,

I'm going to Kfest for the first time this year, cannot wait!!!

Anyway: if you decide to visit here, then give me a few weeks' notice so 
you can visit the VCF museum in New Jersey. We are in a small town about 
60 minutes south of NYC and 90 minutes northeast of Philadelphia.


Evan Koblentz, director
Vintage Computer Federation
a 501(c)(3) educational non-profit

e...@vcfed.org
(646) 546-

www.vcfed.org
facebook.com/vcfederation
twitter.com/vcfederation
instagram.com/vcfederation

Re: TU-58 in simh

[allison via cctalk]

On 04/21/2017 09:34 PM, Don North via cctalk wrote:
> On 4/21/2017 4:25 PM, Brian L. Stuart via cctalk wrote:
>> I've seen suggestion that TU-58s are emulated in simh on
>> PDP-11s.  However, I'm not seeing it in a show dev and my
>> google-fu is failing me to find any info on how to use it.  Any
>> pointers on how to boot from a TU-58 image?
>>
>> TIA,
>> BLS
>>
> Using simh v4.0 from github, in the PDP11 simh ini file:
>
> *set tdc enable**
> **attach tdc0 tu58.dsk*
>
> then assuming tu58.dsk is a bootable image:
>
> *boot tdc0*
>
> Only two units 0,1 are supported (just like a real dual drive) and the
> images must be 262,144 bytes in size (like a real tu58 cartridge).
>

I remember TDC was DECcassette (TU-60).

The boot for RT-11 would be BOOT DD:  the tape image should be built
with a DD driver or DDX for RT11XM.
Least that how it works for my physical PDP-11/23 RT11 system. 
Generally all the files that should be on
a RT11 floppy needs to be on the tape.

For other OSs it first has to fit on the device and have a suitable
driver for TU58.

Allison

Re: Large Scale Systems Museum announcement

[Alexandre Souza via cctalk]

I still think I gotta find a way to travel to USA and spend a month there,
attending KansasFest and visiting some long time friends :)


2017-04-21 16:44 GMT-03:00 Dave McGuire via cctalk :

>
>   Most of you have heard of the Large Scale Systems Museum, a public
> museum in the Pittsburgh area that is focused on minicomputers,
> mainframes, and supercomputers.  LSSM has been closed for renovations
> and expansion for the past several months; we've added nearly a
> thousand square feet of new exhibit space and many new exhibits.
>
>   On May 6th, there will be a large block party (actually, several
> blocks) here in town, called "New Kensington Better Block", with
> street vendors and other standard block party fare.  LSSM will be
> participating in that event with our post-renovation reopening; we
> will be open to the public all day with docents on duty.  Many of our
> systems will be running and demonstrated throughout the day.
>
>   In even bigger news, LSSM is pleased to announce the opening of a
> brand new wing, the Large Scale Integration Museum, or LSIM.  As the
> name suggests, the LSIM wing is dedicated to computer systems based on
> Large Scale Integration CPUs, from the earliest four-bit 4004
> processors through the desktop computer revolution of the 1970s and
> 1980s.  Thanks to a partnership with Pennsylvania-based nonprofit
> organization Tristate Technology Museum Consortium, and a generous
> donation from the private collection of Corey Little and C/PMuseum,
> LSIM will add more than one hundred new exhibits in four thousand
> square feet of newly-renovated space located in the same building as
> the recently-expanded Large Scale Systems Museum.
>
>   Everyone is welcome.  LSSM is located at 924 4th Avenue, New
> Kensington, PA 15068.  For more information, directions, or hotel
> recommendations, contact the LSSM via email at i...@lssmuseum.org or
> on Facebook (search for "Large Scale Systems Museum").  You can also
> see some photos of our facilities on the Facebook page.
>
>   Please feel free to forward this message to anyone whom you think
> might be interested.
>
> Thanks,
> -Dave McGuire
>  President/Curator, LSSM
>
> --
> Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
> New Kensington, PA
>

Re: Large Scale Systems Museum announcement

[Tony Duell via cctalk]

On Sat, Apr 22, 2017 at 2:20 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk
 wrote:

> Some words in English, such as "large" are just too subjective.

The one I object to, particularly in book titles is 'modern'. I have a wonderful
set of books entitled 'Modern Electrical Engineering' with no obvious date.
Wonderful in that they describe with full diagrams things like the Baudot
Quadruplex telegraph and the electromechanical FIFO buffer and decoder
used for signalling on the London Underground.

> In photography, I consider 8x10" and 5x7" to be "large".  4x5" (9x12cm) is
> barely "large".  It annoys me when people refer to 2.25 x 3.25" (6x9cm) and

I tend to class '5 by 4' as 'large format' as it tends to be sheet film (rather
than roll film) and you often have full camera movements. It is more like
the larger formats than, say, 120 roll film.

> 3.25 x 4.25" as "large format".  (and it infuriates me when people express
> focal length of lenses in units of "35mm equivalent mm", instead of the
> actual mm. (my 47mm super-angulon vignettes on long distance of 4x5, but it
> damn sure ain't a "longer than 'normal'" focal length!))

Agreed. The focal length of a lens is an optical property of said
lens, it does not have anything to do with the format of the film.
This idea of '35mm equivalent focal length' came in AFAIK with
digital cameras, I never saw it before, and I've used film cameras
from Minox up to large format. Every lens on every camera was
marked with the optical focal length.

Oh, and the next person who clams that the focal length of the
lens affects the perspective is going to regret it!

-tony

>
>
> Alas, the general public are going to insist that anyghing bigger than a PC
> is "large scale".
>
>
> --
> Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
>
>

Re: TU-58 in simh

[Brian L. Stuart via cctalk]

On Fri, 4/21/17, Don North via cctalk  wrote:
> On 4/21/2017 4:25 PM, Brian L. Stuart via cctalk wrote:
>> I've seen suggestion that TU-58s are emulated in simh on
>> PDP-11s.  However, I'm not seeing it in a show dev and my
>> google-fu is failing me to find any info on how to use it.  Any
>> pointers on how to boot from a TU-58 image?
>
> Using simh v4.0 from github, in the PDP11 simh ini file:
 
Thanks much.  I was using v3.9 which is why I couldn't find
it.  Not everything is working yet, but at least it's loading
and running the boot block.

BLS

Re: TU-58 in simh

[Don North via cctalk]

On 4/21/2017 6:55 PM, allison wrote:

On 04/21/2017 09:34 PM, Don North via cctalk wrote:

On 4/21/2017 4:25 PM, Brian L. Stuart via cctalk wrote:

I've seen suggestion that TU-58s are emulated in simh on
PDP-11s.  However, I'm not seeing it in a show dev and my
google-fu is failing me to find any info on how to use it.  Any
pointers on how to boot from a TU-58 image?

TIA,
BLS


Using simh v4.0 from github, in the PDP11 simh ini file:

*set tdc enable**
**attach tdc0 tu58.dsk*

then assuming tu58.dsk is a bootable image:

*boot tdc0*

Only two units 0,1 are supported (just like a real dual drive) and the
images must be 262,144 bytes in size (like a real tu58 cartridge).


I remember TDC was DECcassette (TU-60).

The boot for RT-11 would be BOOT DD:  the tape image should be built
with a DD driver or DDX for RT11XM.
Least that how it works for my physical PDP-11/23 RT11 system.
Generally all the files that should be on
a RT11 floppy needs to be on the tape.

For other OSs it first has to fit on the device and have a suitable
driver for TU58.

Allison

TU58 is really not much useful for running any real DEC OS other than XXDP, to 
run diagnostics; that is what I use it for on my 34 and 44 (real hardware). I 
don't use TU58 at all under SIMH (does not make much sense).


RT-11SJ works running from TU58, but just barely, and it is not really usable. 
RT11 is barely usable once you move up to a dual drive RX02.



test[991] pdp11

PDP-11 simulator V4.0-0 Betagit commit id: 17903827
sim> set tdc enable
sim> att tdc0 11xxdp.dsk
TDC: buffering file in memory
sim> boot tdc0

BOOTING UP XXDP-XM EXTENDED MONITOR

XXDP-XM EXTENDED MONITOR - XXDP V2.5
REVISION: F0
BOOTED FROM DD0
124KW OF MEMORY
NON-UNIBUS SYSTEM

RESTART ADDRESS: 152000
TYPE "H" FOR HELP !

.DIR

ENTRY# FILNAM.EXTDATE  LENGTH  START VERSION

1  XXDPSM.SYS   1-MAR-89 2947 E.0
2  XXDPXM.SYS   1-MAR-89 39000104 F.0
3  DRSSM .SYS   1-MAR-89 24000153 G.2
4  DRSXM .SYS   1-MAR-89 48000203 C.0
5  DATE  .SYS   1-MAR-89  2000263 B.0
6  DB.SYS   1-MAR-89  2000265 C.0
7  DD.SYS   1-MAR-89  3000267 D.0
8  DIR   .SYS   1-MAR-89  7000272 D.0
9  DL.SYS   1-MAR-89  4000301 D.0
   10  DM.SYS   1-MAR-89  4000305 C.0
   11  DR.SYS   1-MAR-89  3000311 C.0
   12  DU.SYS   1-MAR-89  4000314 E.0
   13  DUSZ  .SYS   1-MAR-89  2000320 C.0
   14  DY.SYS   1-MAR-89  3000322 D.0
   15  LP.SYS   1-MAR-89  1000325 B.0
   16  MM.SYS   1-MAR-89  3000326 C.0
   17  MS.SYS   1-MAR-89  4000331 C.0
   18  MU.SYS   1-MAR-89  4000335 E.0
   19  HELP  .TXT   1-MAR-89 29000341
   20  PATCH .BIC   1-MAR-89 31000376
   21  SETUP .BIC   1-MAR-89 27000435
   22  UPDAT .BIC   1-MAR-89 29000470
   23  XTECO .BIC   1-MAR-89 26000525
   24  FLOAT .BIN   1-MAR-89 18000557

FREE BLOCKS:   126

.

Re: Large Scale Systems Museum announcement

[Ian S. King via cctalk]

Awesome!  I regret I won't be able to be there, but do have a great time.
 -- Ian

On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 12:44 PM, Dave McGuire via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

>
>   Most of you have heard of the Large Scale Systems Museum, a public
> museum in the Pittsburgh area that is focused on minicomputers,
> mainframes, and supercomputers.  LSSM has been closed for renovations
> and expansion for the past several months; we've added nearly a
> thousand square feet of new exhibit space and many new exhibits.
>
>   On May 6th, there will be a large block party (actually, several
> blocks) here in town, called "New Kensington Better Block", with
> street vendors and other standard block party fare.  LSSM will be
> participating in that event with our post-renovation reopening; we
> will be open to the public all day with docents on duty.  Many of our
> systems will be running and demonstrated throughout the day.
>
>   In even bigger news, LSSM is pleased to announce the opening of a
> brand new wing, the Large Scale Integration Museum, or LSIM.  As the
> name suggests, the LSIM wing is dedicated to computer systems based on
> Large Scale Integration CPUs, from the earliest four-bit 4004
> processors through the desktop computer revolution of the 1970s and
> 1980s.  Thanks to a partnership with Pennsylvania-based nonprofit
> organization Tristate Technology Museum Consortium, and a generous
> donation from the private collection of Corey Little and C/PMuseum,
> LSIM will add more than one hundred new exhibits in four thousand
> square feet of newly-renovated space located in the same building as
> the recently-expanded Large Scale Systems Museum.
>
>   Everyone is welcome.  LSSM is located at 924 4th Avenue, New
> Kensington, PA 15068.  For more information, directions, or hotel
> recommendations, contact the LSSM via email at i...@lssmuseum.org or
> on Facebook (search for "Large Scale Systems Museum").  You can also
> see some photos of our facilities on the Facebook page.
>
>   Please feel free to forward this message to anyone whom you think
> might be interested.
>
> Thanks,
> -Dave McGuire
>  President/Curator, LSSM
>
> --
> Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
> New Kensington, PA
>



-- 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School 
Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical
Narrative Through a Design Lens

Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal 
Value Sensitive Design Research Lab 

University of Washington

There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."

Re: TU-58 in simh

[Don North via cctalk]

On 4/21/2017 6:34 PM, Don North via cctalk wrote:

On 4/21/2017 4:25 PM, Brian L. Stuart via cctalk wrote:

I've seen suggestion that TU-58s are emulated in simh on
PDP-11s.  However, I'm not seeing it in a show dev and my
google-fu is failing me to find any info on how to use it.  Any
pointers on how to boot from a TU-58 image?

TIA,
BLS


Using simh v4.0 from github, in the PDP11 simh ini file:

  set tdc enable
  attach tdc0 tu58.dsk

then assuming tu58.dsk is a bootable image:

  boot tdc0

Only two units 0,1 are supported (just like a real dual drive) and the images 
must be 262,144 bytes in size (like a real tu58 cartridge).



Removed the '*'s from the above simh commands (which were inserted because of 
thunderbird bolding the text ...)

Re: TU-58 in simh

[Don North via cctalk]

On 4/21/2017 4:25 PM, Brian L. Stuart via cctalk wrote:

I've seen suggestion that TU-58s are emulated in simh on
PDP-11s.  However, I'm not seeing it in a show dev and my
google-fu is failing me to find any info on how to use it.  Any
pointers on how to boot from a TU-58 image?

TIA,
BLS


Using simh v4.0 from github, in the PDP11 simh ini file:

*set tdc enable**
**attach tdc0 tu58.dsk*

then assuming tu58.dsk is a bootable image:

*boot tdc0*

Only two units 0,1 are supported (just like a real dual drive) and the images 
must be 262,144 bytes in size (like a real tu58 cartridge).

Re: Large Scale Systems Museum announcement

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Fri, 21 Apr 2017, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

Mike Lowen's got some photos here:
http://q7.neurotica.com/LSSM/
Sadly, I don't see any of what I would call "large scale" systems.
Mostly minis and small mainframes.


Few of them would fit in airline checked baggage.

You could easily lose a screw, and MAYBE a screwdriver in one, but not a 
scope or technician.



Some words in English, such as "large" are just too subjective.
In photography, I consider 8x10" and 5x7" to be "large".  4x5" (9x12cm) is 
barely "large".  It annoys me when people refer to 2.25 x 3.25" 
(6x9cm) and 3.25 x 4.25" as "large format".  (and it infuriates me when 
people express focal length of lenses in units of "35mm equivalent mm", 
instead of the actual mm. (my 47mm super-angulon vignettes on long 
distance of 4x5, but it damn sure ain't a "longer than 'normal'" focal 
length!))



Alas, the general public are going to insist that anyghing bigger than a 
PC is "large scale".



--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

Re: Did we miss the 20th anniversary of classiccmp?

[Warren Toomey via cctalk]

The "old Unix" mailing list has been running since October 1995:
http://minnie.tuhs.org/pipermail/tuhs/

Cheers, Warren

TU-58 in simh

[Brian L. Stuart via cctalk]

I've seen suggestion that TU-58s are emulated in simh on
PDP-11s.  However, I'm not seeing it in a show dev and my
google-fu is failing me to find any info on how to use it.  Any
pointers on how to boot from a TU-58 image?

TIA,
BLS

Re: Did we miss the 20th anniversary of classiccmp?

[Andrew K. Bressen via cctalk]

Telecom digest has been running since 1981. 

I don't know if any of the Amateur Press Associations (APAs)
made the leap to digital, but an APA is fundamentally a digest 
email list done with a copier/mimeograph/hectograph and the postal
service as the transport layer, and there's at least one active 
one that's 80 years old. 

Paul Koning via cctalk  writes:
>> On Apr 21, 2017, at 1:26 AM, Pontus Pihlgren via cctalk 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Congratulations to us all, even if a little late.
>> 
>> It makes me wonder, what is the oldest still running mailinglist?
>
> Don't know about *the* oldest, but one that's quite old and still very active 
> is the TZ mailing list (about timezone rules and their ongoing changes).  
> This is the list that collects and distributes the data that keeps clocks 
> worldwide showing the correct local time, at least when politicians give more 
> than a few days' notice of a change.
>
> The first message on that list is from Arthur Olson, Mon, 24 Nov 86 19:58:12 
> EST.  Though retired now he still occasionally contributes.
>
>   paul

Re: Large Scale Systems Museum announcement

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

Mike Lowen's got some photos here:

http://q7.neurotica.com/LSSM/

Sadly, I don't see any of what I would call "large scale" systems.
Mostly minis and small mainframes.

--Chuck

Computer pickup

[Gil Carrick via cctalk]

Cindy Croxton

 

I am interested in the stuff. Please contact me.

 

Gil

--

A. G. (Gil) Carrick, Director

Museum of Information Technology at Arlington

1012 Portofino Drive

Arlington, TX 76012

817-994-9213 (cell) - gil.carrick (Skype) http://MIT-A.com

 

Re: Large Scale Systems Museum announcement

[Pete Lancashire via cctalk]

Guess I'll have to add New Kensignton to my visit list the next time I hit
the east coast

-pete

On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 1:09 PM, william degnan via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 3:44 PM, Dave McGuire via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> >
> >   Most of you have heard of the Large Scale Systems Museum, a public
> > museum in the Pittsburgh area that is focused on minicomputers,
> > mainframes, and supercomputers.  LSSM has been closed for renovations
> > and expansion for the past several months; we've added nearly a
> > thousand square feet of new exhibit space and many new exhibits.
> >
> > 
> >
> >   Everyone is welcome.  LSSM is located at 924 4th Avenue, New
> > Kensington, PA 15068.  For more information, directions, or hotel
> > recommendations, contact the LSSM via email at i...@lssmuseum.org or
> > on Facebook (search for "Large Scale Systems Museum").  You can also
> > see some photos of our facilities on the Facebook page.
> >
> >   Please feel free to forward this message to anyone whom you think
> > might be interested.
> >
> >
> Wow can't wait to see the new digs.
> Bill
>
>

RE: Large Scale Systems Museum announcement

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

Dave,
 I don't even remember whatall you got from me but did any of make it into the
museum?  Would be great if I could make a trip out there to see it but I never
know what is coming next.

Just as a matter of curiosity, The University of Scranton (my former employer
and Alma Mater) has static displays along one corridor of the Loyola Science
Center that change every semester or two.  A number of the items on display
are on loan from my collection.

bill


From: cctalk [cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] on behalf of Dave McGuire via 
cctalk [cctalk@classiccmp.org]
Sent: Friday, April 21, 2017 3:44 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Large Scale Systems Museum announcement

   Most of you have heard of the Large Scale Systems Museum, a public
museum in the Pittsburgh area that is focused on minicomputers,
mainframes, and supercomputers.  LSSM has been closed for renovations
and expansion for the past several months; we've added nearly a
thousand square feet of new exhibit space and many new exhibits.

   On May 6th, there will be a large block party (actually, several
blocks) here in town, called "New Kensington Better Block", with
street vendors and other standard block party fare.  LSSM will be
participating in that event with our post-renovation reopening; we
will be open to the public all day with docents on duty.  Many of our
systems will be running and demonstrated throughout the day.

   In even bigger news, LSSM is pleased to announce the opening of a
brand new wing, the Large Scale Integration Museum, or LSIM.  As the
name suggests, the LSIM wing is dedicated to computer systems based on
Large Scale Integration CPUs, from the earliest four-bit 4004
processors through the desktop computer revolution of the 1970s and
1980s.  Thanks to a partnership with Pennsylvania-based nonprofit
organization Tristate Technology Museum Consortium, and a generous
donation from the private collection of Corey Little and C/PMuseum,
LSIM will add more than one hundred new exhibits in four thousand
square feet of newly-renovated space located in the same building as
the recently-expanded Large Scale Systems Museum.

   Everyone is welcome.  LSSM is located at 924 4th Avenue, New
Kensington, PA 15068.  For more information, directions, or hotel
recommendations, contact the LSSM via email at i...@lssmuseum.org or
on Facebook (search for "Large Scale Systems Museum").  You can also
see some photos of our facilities on the Facebook page.

   Please feel free to forward this message to anyone whom you think
might be interested.

 Thanks,
 -Dave McGuire
  President/Curator, LSSM

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA

Re: Large Scale Systems Museum announcement

[william degnan via cctalk]

Looking forward to new photos/video.  I will try to get over there then.
Bill

Re: Large Scale Systems Museum announcement

[william degnan via cctalk]

On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 3:44 PM, Dave McGuire via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

>
>   Most of you have heard of the Large Scale Systems Museum, a public
> museum in the Pittsburgh area that is focused on minicomputers,
> mainframes, and supercomputers.  LSSM has been closed for renovations
> and expansion for the past several months; we've added nearly a
> thousand square feet of new exhibit space and many new exhibits.
>
> 
>
>   Everyone is welcome.  LSSM is located at 924 4th Avenue, New
> Kensington, PA 15068.  For more information, directions, or hotel
> recommendations, contact the LSSM via email at i...@lssmuseum.org or
> on Facebook (search for "Large Scale Systems Museum").  You can also
> see some photos of our facilities on the Facebook page.
>
>   Please feel free to forward this message to anyone whom you think
> might be interested.
>
>
Wow can't wait to see the new digs.
Bill

Re: Did we miss the 20th anniversary of classiccmp?

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 04/21/2017 12:28 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:

> Multi-user communication systems of a somewhat different architecture
> are even older: "Notes files" on the PLATO system.


AUTODIN and predecessors, such as ComLogNet extend into the 1950s.

--Chuck

Large Scale Systems Museum announcement

[Dave McGuire via cctalk]

  Most of you have heard of the Large Scale Systems Museum, a public
museum in the Pittsburgh area that is focused on minicomputers,
mainframes, and supercomputers.  LSSM has been closed for renovations
and expansion for the past several months; we've added nearly a
thousand square feet of new exhibit space and many new exhibits.

  On May 6th, there will be a large block party (actually, several
blocks) here in town, called "New Kensington Better Block", with
street vendors and other standard block party fare.  LSSM will be
participating in that event with our post-renovation reopening; we
will be open to the public all day with docents on duty.  Many of our
systems will be running and demonstrated throughout the day.

  In even bigger news, LSSM is pleased to announce the opening of a
brand new wing, the Large Scale Integration Museum, or LSIM.  As the
name suggests, the LSIM wing is dedicated to computer systems based on
Large Scale Integration CPUs, from the earliest four-bit 4004
processors through the desktop computer revolution of the 1970s and
1980s.  Thanks to a partnership with Pennsylvania-based nonprofit
organization Tristate Technology Museum Consortium, and a generous
donation from the private collection of Corey Little and C/PMuseum,
LSIM will add more than one hundred new exhibits in four thousand
square feet of newly-renovated space located in the same building as
the recently-expanded Large Scale Systems Museum.

  Everyone is welcome.  LSSM is located at 924 4th Avenue, New
Kensington, PA 15068.  For more information, directions, or hotel
recommendations, contact the LSSM via email at i...@lssmuseum.org or
on Facebook (search for "Large Scale Systems Museum").  You can also
see some photos of our facilities on the Facebook page.

  Please feel free to forward this message to anyone whom you think
might be interested.

Thanks,
-Dave McGuire
 President/Curator, LSSM

--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA

Re: Did we miss the 20th anniversary of classiccmp?

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Apr 21, 2017, at 1:54 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
>> From: Bill Gunshannon
> 
>> Surely there were Mailing Lists prior to the existence of the Internet,
>> yes?
> 
> Absolutely. They started on the ARPANet, fairly early on.
> 
> E.g. SF-Lovers (one of the first 'non-mission related' mailing lists) started
> in September, 1979, and MsgGroup (an 'official-busines-related' one)
> considerably earlier, in June 1975. Header-People started at about the same
> time, but alas, we have lost the first two volumes of the archives, so I don't
> know exactly when.

Multi-user communication systems of a somewhat different architecture are even 
older: "Notes files" on the PLATO system.

paul

Re: Bitsavers size

[Alan Frisbie via cctalk]

"Shoppa, Tim" wrote:


The bitsavers archive is 267 Gbytes.


And growing.   I just sent Al a CD with 450 MB of scans of
old obscure IBM manuals from the late 1960s and early 1970s.
One example:
225-3360-1 2030 Processing Unit Field Engineering Theory of Operation
(It describes all the internal operations of the S/360 Model 30.)

So far I have sent him 15 CDs of manual and print set scans,
many of which have not yet appeared online.   This is probably
because he lacks time and resources to do the necessary post
processing of them.

If there is any interest, I can post (or send) a list of the
manuals.

The next batch will be from SEL, GE, Tymshare, and a few other
miscellaneous companies.   After that, it will be all DEC.
If anyone else is scanning DEC manuals, please contact me so
we can coordinate our efforts and avoid duplication.

Alan Frisbie

A treasure trove in Dallas

[Electronics Plus via cctalk]

If you live in the DFW area, and have a truck and a strong back, there are
some VERY interesting items.

A DEC cabinet taller than I am, with a front panel of switches. I asked him
if the panel was rust or orange, but he said he thought it was dark, like
brown. The cabinet was backwards, and there was too much stuff in the way to
turn it around.

3 Sun cabinets full of stuff, and a SparcStation 20.

Several (at least 4) IBM server cabinets. Not the blue 6 foot kind; these
are abt waist high.

A cabinet about waist high the said Computer Control (I think) with switches
and LEDs. Too heavy to move into the light to take pics.

A complete Data Products B300 line printer.

 

If you are interested in these, send me an email, and I will give you the
contact info.

The warehouse is very dirty, and the aisles are very small. A large person
will not fit.

 

Cindy Croxton

 

Re: Copy of UNIBUS Interface Manual available for trade

[Alan Frisbie via cctalk]

j...@mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) wrote:

> One DEC book I really crave, but _cannot_ find, is the "PDP-11 Systems
> Handbook" ("Featuring: MicroPDP-11/83 MicroPDP-11/73 MicroPDP-11/53
> PDP-11/84"). If anyone has an extra copy of this they're willing to part
> with, please let me know,

I have an extra copy I would be happy to send to you.
Just send me your mailing address.

Alan Frisbie

IMS and other interesting S100 cards (Ebay sale alert, pass if you don't want such)

[jim stephens via cctalk]

If this link works for you, this is to an auction someone has for a 
bunch of IMS and other

S100 cards.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/IBS-Slavenet-P-N-710525-128B-Rev-D-1984-S-100-CPU-Card-Board-115-/201869883143

I linked off something called IBS Slavenet, but it also has a number of 
IMS boards


IMS-Z-80B-Master-Slave-Board-A1270-Rev-F-1984-S-100-CPU-Card-Board-66-/
http://www.ebay.com/itm/192142950358

I used to buy the IMS 16K static boards as they were golden back when I 
ran S100, and had
one of their Z80 boards, but stuck with mostly Tarbell and 8080 for my 
time with S100 and

never graduated to this sort of system.

Might interest those still doing S-100
thanks
Jim

Re: Bitsavers size

[Tony Duell via cctalk]

On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 6:24 PM, Rob Jarratt
 wrote:
>
>
>> > My back of the envelope calculation comes to approximately
>> > 4 million miles of paper tape.
>>
>> I think you're out by a factor of 10 267*10^9 bytes, divide by 10 as 
>> there are
>> 10 bytes to the inch on paper tape, and convert to miles. I get just over 
>> 400,000
>> miles.
>>
>
> Agreed, I measured a piece of paper tape I have here and got a figure of 0.9 
> inches
> per 10 bytes, so clearly just a bit of finger trouble somewhere in my 
> calculation.

I think you've made a fencepost error here. There will, indeed be 0.9" between
the centre line of one byte and that of the tenth byte after it. But
you are forgetting
to include the gap on one end of that block (if you see what I mean).

The holes on paper tape (at least the normal 5 level and 8 level
stuff, typesetter
tape may well be different) fall on a 0.1" matrix. I once made an emergency
splicing jig for paper tape using a bit of stripboard with some pins soldered
in. So there are exactly 10 characters per inch on paper tape.


> Still, almost enough for a round trip to the moon.

True...

-tony

RE: Did we miss the 20th anniversary of classiccmp?

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

> From: Bill Gunshannon

> Surely there were Mailing Lists prior to the existence of the Internet,
> yes?

Absolutely. They started on the ARPANet, fairly early on.

E.g. SF-Lovers (one of the first 'non-mission related' mailing lists) started
in September, 1979, and MsgGroup (an 'official-busines-related' one)
considerably earlier, in June 1975. Header-People started at about the same
time, but alas, we have lost the first two volumes of the archives, so I don't
know exactly when.

I maintain archives of these lists on my page:

  http://mercury.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/archives.html

if anyone wants a look. The variety of header formats is kind of amusing.

> Do any Lists that started on UUCP still exist today?

Perhaps. Do you count newgroups? (Of course, UUCP considerably post-date
the ARPANet.)

Noel

Re: Bitsavers size

[ben via cctalk]

On 4/21/2017 11:35 AM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote:

Bit savers is only 267 gigs?


Now if you want to archive "PORN are US" that is bit bigger. :)
Ben.

Re: Bitsavers size

[Jerry Weiss via cctalk]

> On Apr 21, 2017, at 12:24 PM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>>> My back of the envelope calculation comes to approximately
>>> 4 million miles of paper tape.
>> 
>> I think you're out by a factor of 10 267*10^9 bytes, divide by 10 as 
>> there are
>> 10 bytes to the inch on paper tape, and convert to miles. I get just over 
>> 400,000
>> miles.
>> 
> 
> Agreed, I measured a piece of paper tape I have here and got a figure of 0.9 
> inches per 10 bytes, so clearly just a bit of finger trouble somewhere in my 
> calculation. Still, almost enough for a round trip to the moon.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Rob
> 
> 
>> My rule of thumb is that a full reel of 1" paper tape is 100k bytes So 10 
>> for a
>> megabyte
>> 1 for a gigabyte
>> 2,670,000 for all of bitsavers. Perhaps nearer 3 million as it's an
>> approximation
>> 
> 
> 
> 

ASCII correct?  Not Murray, Western Union,Flexowriter or other ?

Anyone care to estimate how large the pile of chads will be?


Jerry  
j...@ieee.org

RE: Bitsavers size

[Adrian Stoness via cctalk]

Bit savers is only 267 gigs?

On Apr 21, 2017 12:25 PM, "Rob Jarratt via cctalk" 
wrote:

>
>
> > > My back of the envelope calculation comes to approximately
> > > 4 million miles of paper tape.
> >
> > I think you're out by a factor of 10 267*10^9 bytes, divide by 10 as
> there are
> > 10 bytes to the inch on paper tape, and convert to miles. I get just
> over 400,000
> > miles.
> >
>
> Agreed, I measured a piece of paper tape I have here and got a figure of
> 0.9 inches per 10 bytes, so clearly just a bit of finger trouble somewhere
> in my calculation. Still, almost enough for a round trip to the moon.
>
> Regards
>
> Rob
>
>
> > My rule of thumb is that a full reel of 1" paper tape is 100k bytes So
> 10 for a
> > megabyte
> > 1 for a gigabyte
> > 2,670,000 for all of bitsavers. Perhaps nearer 3 million as it's an
> > approximation
> >
>
>
>
>

Re: Did we miss the 20th anniversary of classiccmp?

[Adrian Stoness via cctalk]

Oldest mailing lists prolly held by snail mail type groups. That evovled
into the digital age

On Apr 21, 2017 11:40 AM, "Tony Duell via cctalk" 
wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 5:36 PM, Thomas Kula via cctalk
>  wrote:
>
> > To be fair, while we may have missed the 020th and 20th anniversaries,
> > we're well ahead of the 0x20th anniversary.
> >
> > So --- what base are we using?
>
> Or what about celebrating 8192 days of the list, which I think
> is a little over 22 (base 10) years.
>
> -tony
>

Decmate II

[Shawn Love via cctalk]

Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone




Hi,I have a friend who has a Decmate II.  Her family purchased it new for their 
business in the early 80s.  Tested it with her last night and it is in perfect 
condition.  Boots from the floppy and also from the hard drive.  It is in a 
tower enclosure and has a working keyboard and terminal, all in perfect working 
and cosmetic condition.  She has all of the manuals and software in their 
original boxes and they look brand new.  She has a stack of brochures and 
promotional items several inches thick.  She even has the original sales 
receipt.  I have no way to know for sure but from what I can see, everything 
that came with this machine is there.  She lives in pennsylvania.  I'm planning 
to list it on eBay but wanted to reach out to the collector community first.  
Anyone interested can contact me at lov...@verizon.net.
Thanks,Shawn

Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone

RE: Bitsavers size

[Rob Jarratt via cctalk]

> > My back of the envelope calculation comes to approximately
> > 4 million miles of paper tape.
> 
> I think you're out by a factor of 10 267*10^9 bytes, divide by 10 as 
> there are
> 10 bytes to the inch on paper tape, and convert to miles. I get just over 
> 400,000
> miles.
> 

Agreed, I measured a piece of paper tape I have here and got a figure of 0.9 
inches per 10 bytes, so clearly just a bit of finger trouble somewhere in my 
calculation. Still, almost enough for a round trip to the moon.

Regards

Rob


> My rule of thumb is that a full reel of 1" paper tape is 100k bytes So 10 for 
> a
> megabyte
> 1 for a gigabyte
> 2,670,000 for all of bitsavers. Perhaps nearer 3 million as it's an
> approximation
> 

Re: Did we miss the 20th anniversary of classiccmp?

[Tony Duell via cctalk]

On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 5:36 PM, Thomas Kula via cctalk
 wrote:

> To be fair, while we may have missed the 020th and 20th anniversaries,
> we're well ahead of the 0x20th anniversary.
>
> So --- what base are we using?

Or what about celebrating 8192 days of the list, which I think
is a little over 22 (base 10) years.

-tony

Re: Did we miss the 20th anniversary of classiccmp?

[Thomas Kula via cctalk]

On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 05:18:03PM +0100, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 3:42 PM, Pontus Pihlgren via cctalk
>  wrote:
> > On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 09:34:52AM -0500, Jay West via cctalk wrote:
> >>
> >> But that being said... we should have had a party or something *grin*.
> >>
> >
> > You could argue that years are index starting from zero. Thus the
> > 20-year celebration is next year and we have ample time to prepare.
> >
> > (It's what we did when we missed an anniversery for the computer science
> > programme).
> 
> At least in the UK it is tradition to celebrate a person's 21st birthday
> (coming of age and all that). So perhaps the same applies to mailing
> lists :-)
> 
> Somewhere I have a 21st birthday card that a certain classic computer
> enthiast (now alas passed away) sent, not to me, but to my PDP11/45...


To be fair, while we may have missed the 020th and 20th anniversaries,
we're well ahead of the 0x20th anniversary. 

So --- what base are we using?

-- 
Thomas L. Kula | k...@tproa.net | http://kula.tproa.net/

RE: Did we miss the 20th anniversary of classiccmp?

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

From: cctalk [cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] on behalf of Noel Chiappa via 
cctalk [cctalk@classiccmp.org]
Sent: Friday, April 21, 2017 10:51 AM
To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
Cc: j...@mercury.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Did we miss the 20th anniversary of classiccmp?

> On Apr 21, 2017, at 1:26 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote:

> It makes me wonder, what is the oldest still running mailinglist?

I don't have access to my _old_ email (i.e. from the 80's) to confirm this,
and I don't think they still have copies of the very oldest mail, but the
IETF list has got to be pretty old (first meeting was early '86, but they may
not have had a mailing list for a while, yet).

Risks started in the summer of '85, so that one's older.

Noel
__

Surely there were Mailing Lists prior to the existence of the Internet, yes?
Do any Lists that started on UUCP still exist today?

bill

Re: Did we miss the 20th anniversary of classiccmp?

[Tony Duell via cctalk]

On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 3:42 PM, Pontus Pihlgren via cctalk
 wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 09:34:52AM -0500, Jay West via cctalk wrote:
>>
>> But that being said... we should have had a party or something *grin*.
>>
>
> You could argue that years are index starting from zero. Thus the
> 20-year celebration is next year and we have ample time to prepare.
>
> (It's what we did when we missed an anniversery for the computer science
> programme).

At least in the UK it is tradition to celebrate a person's 21st birthday
(coming of age and all that). So perhaps the same applies to mailing
lists :-)

Somewhere I have a 21st birthday card that a certain classic computer
enthiast (now alas passed away) sent, not to me, but to my PDP11/45...

-tony

Copy of UNIBUS Interface Manual available for trade

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

Hi, all, continuing the process of getting rid of duplicate DEC documentation:
I have an extra copy of the the UNIBUS Interface Manual, Second Edition
(DEC-11-HIAB-D); I'm interested in trading it for any interesting PDP-11
documentation or stuff you'd like to part with which I don't have.

One DEC book I really crave, but _cannot_ find, is the "PDP-11 Systems
Handbook" ("Featuring: MicroPDP-11/83 MicroPDP-11/73 MicroPDP-11/53
PDP-11/84"). If anyone has an extra copy of this they're willing to part
with, please let me know, I have a lot of odds and ends I can trade (or
plain $$$ if that works).

  Noel

Re: Did we miss the 20th anniversary of classiccmp?

[Shoppa, Tim via cctalk]

I am living proof that a good Fortran Programmer can write spaghetti code in 
any language.

Fortran by default starts all of its array indices at 1 so I would argue that 
we are now in year 21. A C programmer would disagree.

Tim N3QE

Sent from my VAX-11/780

> On Apr 21, 2017, at 10:47 AM, Jay West  wrote:
> 
> Pontus wrote...
> -
> You could argue that years are index starting from zero. Thus the 20-year
> celebration is next year and we have ample time to prepare.
> -
> That's a hilariously great idea for the rationalization and justification
> department *grin*
> 
> J
> 
> 

Re: Did we miss the 20th anniversary of classiccmp?

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

> On Apr 20, 2017, at 10:26 PM, Pontus Pihlgren via cctalk 
>  wrote:
> 
> It makes me wonder, what is the oldest still running mailinglist?

Part of the question I’d have, is do you mean on the Internet the whole time?

I’m on one for photography that started out life on Fidonet, moved to the 
Internet, and while it still has the maillist, is now sadly, mainly a Facebook 
group.

I know of a couple Role Playing Game lists that are definitely older than this 
list.  The one started in the early 90’s, on the Internet, the other in the 
80’s on GEnie.  

These are simply examples I’m aware of.  It would also be interesting to know 
how many have evolved into either Facebook or Google groups.

Zane

Re: Did we miss the 20th anniversary of classiccmp?

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

> On Apr 21, 2017, at 1:26 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote:

> It makes me wonder, what is the oldest still running mailinglist?

I don't have access to my _old_ email (i.e. from the 80's) to confirm this,
and I don't think they still have copies of the very oldest mail, but the
IETF list has got to be pretty old (first meeting was early '86, but they may
not have had a mailing list for a while, yet).

Risks started in the summer of '85, so that one's older.

Noel

RE: Did we miss the 20th anniversary of classiccmp?

[Jay West via cctalk]

Pontus wrote...
-
You could argue that years are index starting from zero. Thus the 20-year
celebration is next year and we have ample time to prepare.
-
That's a hilariously great idea for the rationalization and justification
department *grin*

J

Re: Did we miss the 20th anniversary of classiccmp?

[Pontus Pihlgren via cctalk]

On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 09:34:52AM -0500, Jay West via cctalk wrote:
> 
> But that being said... we should have had a party or something *grin*.
> 

You could argue that years are index starting from zero. Thus the 
20-year celebration is next year and we have ample time to prepare.

(It's what we did when we missed an anniversery for the computer science 
programme).

/P

RE: Did we miss the 20th anniversary of classiccmp?

[Mike Loewen via cctalk]

On Fri, 21 Apr 2017, Jay West via cctalk wrote:


And yes, many are here just for the relationships and comradery that has 
developed over decades of the lists existence.

But that being said... we should have had a party or something *grin*.


   We could have the party at VCF MW in September.  :-)


Mike Loewen mloe...@cpumagic.scol.pa.us
Old Technology  http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/

RE: Did we miss the 20th anniversary of classiccmp?

[Jay West via cctalk]

Zane wrote...
-
I think it's safe to say that a list dedicated to computer history, forgot its 
own history.
-

I beg to disagree with the premise. Yes, there are quite a few people here that 
focus on the history and historical aspects of the hobby. But that doesn't mean 
the list is "dedicated to computer history". It's a significant component, but 
many are here just for the love of the old machines, the knowledge that is 
present, electronics, software design, etc.

And yes, many are here just for the relationships and comradery that has 
developed over decades of the lists existence.

But that being said... we should have had a party or something *grin*.

J

RE: bitsavers rsync server down

[Jay West via cctalk]

Sam wrote…

How does one back up a system like that?
-

Well, it’s rsynced to X mirror sites around the globe (where X is I forgot, but 
I believe around 8 or 10 sites). So one site going dark isn’t going to make the 
content go away – even if the dead site is the master site on classiccmp. The 
frequency of the rsync is up to each mirror ISTR, but many do rsync daily.

Second, most of the classiccmp server is rsynced from the datacenter to a 12tb 
nas at my house about once a month just in case something bad happens.

It’s not a perfect system, but should be adequate. I’ve been pondering a few 
modifications to the above lately what with all the shuffling going around 
anyways….

 

Best,

 

J

RE: Bitsavers size

[Jay West via cctalk]

Alexandre wrote...
--
Is there interesting of having a "comunity backup" of bitsavers in Brazil?
--

I just host the main repository and rsyncd to the mirrors. The site is 100% 
owned and maintained by Al Kossow. So you'd need to ask that question of Al 
as he's the one that decides how many mirrors and where and who.

As I recall - two primary rules are that any mirrors that offer the content 
publicly, must not make any presentation changes. They must mirror the site 
exactly as the original, no changes to the files or presentation. In addition, 
the files all remain as bitsavers files (you cant get a mirror, sync the 
contents, and then say it's all yours and represent it as such, nor add your 
own files to it). Otherwise - no more mirror for you ;)

At least, that's my recollection. Of course, AEK is in charge of all that, I 
just implement what he wishes :)

Questions or comments about this should all be directed to Al via email... his 
baby.

J

Re: Did we miss the 20th anniversary of classiccmp?

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Apr 21, 2017, at 1:26 AM, Pontus Pihlgren via cctalk 
>  wrote:
> 
> Congratulations to us all, even if a little late.
> 
> It makes me wonder, what is the oldest still running mailinglist?

Don't know about *the* oldest, but one that's quite old and still very active 
is the TZ mailing list (about timezone rules and their ongoing changes).  This 
is the list that collects and distributes the data that keeps clocks worldwide 
showing the correct local time, at least when politicians give more than a few 
days' notice of a change.

The first message on that list is from Arthur Olson, Mon, 24 Nov 86 19:58:12 
EST.  Though retired now he still occasionally contributes.

paul

RE: Did we miss the 20th anniversary of classiccmp?

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

From: cctalk [cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] on behalf of Torfinn Ingolfsen via 
cctalk [cctalk@classiccmp.org]
Sent: Friday, April 21, 2017 7:27 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Did we miss the 20th anniversary of classiccmp?

On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 7:26 AM, Pontus Pihlgren via cctalk
 wrote:
> Congratulations to us all, even if a little late.
>
> It makes me wonder, what is the oldest still running mailinglist?

Still running, or still getting on-topic posts to it?


Wha about the VMS Mailing List?  

bill

Re: Did we miss the 20th anniversary of classiccmp?

[Pontus Pihlgren via cctalk]

On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 01:27:09PM +0200, Torfinn Ingolfsen via cctalk wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 7:26 AM, Pontus Pihlgren via cctalk
>  wrote:
> > Congratulations to us all, even if a little late.
> >
> > It makes me wonder, what is the oldest still running mailinglist?
> 
> Still running, or still getting on-topic posts to it?

"Active"

I suppose there are more than one consumed by spam.

/P

Re: Did we miss the 20th anniversary of classiccmp?

[Torfinn Ingolfsen via cctalk]

On Fri, Apr 21, 2017 at 7:26 AM, Pontus Pihlgren via cctalk
 wrote:
> Congratulations to us all, even if a little late.
>
> It makes me wonder, what is the oldest still running mailinglist?

Still running, or still getting on-topic posts to it?
-- 
Regards,
Torfinn Ingolfsen