[cctalk] Re: NewtonOS
Haha, I was just poking at my old BB too. I miss that thing, it was pretty nice when hooked up to a BES. The iPhone has been the only device I ever liked better, and even then not every aspect. With RIM all but defunct I’d love to see the BB OS source be released some day too. Of course it’d be most interesting combined with its supporting ecosystem software like BES and whatever they ran on the RIM side. Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 29, 2023, at 7:01 PM, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > > Finishing up > The BB and Palm and Treo were faster and far more usable that the Newton. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Aug 29, 2023, at 18:59, Wayne S wrote: >> >> I used a newton and still have it a box. It was heavy and very slow. >> Graffiti didn’t work very well either. Microsoft came put with their first >> notepad running Win/NT a few years after that but it was slow too. I think >> Newton was just ahead of it’s time. The cpu’s needed to run it efficiently >> had not been invented yet. >> The Treo and the Blackberry >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> > On Aug 29, 2023, at 18:46, Grant Taylor via cctalk > wrote: > On 8/29/23 7:28 PM, David Arnold wrote: > Some of you might recall that Apple released a series of machines based > on the Newton OS in the early 1990s. >>> >>> ACK >>> >>> How do Palm Pilot's compare to the Newton? >>> >>> I had someone I respect and trust make a lot of comparisons between a Palm >>> T3 (?) I used to carry and Newtons. He was even opening programs in a some >>> sort of editor and comparing things. I distinctly remember him saying that >>> he thought there was some relationship between the Newton and Palm. But >>> I've never seen nor heard anything to corroborate this. >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Grant. . . . >>> unix || die
[cctalk] Re: NewtonOS
On Tue, Aug 29, 2023 at 7:38 PM David Arnold via cctalk wrote: > > Some of you might recall that Apple released a series of machines based > on the Newton OS in the early 1990s. BTDT, got the shirt. https://i.imgur.com/pgFDNrO.png
[cctalk] Re: NewtonOS
Finishing up The BB and Palm and Treo were faster and far more usable that the Newton. Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 29, 2023, at 18:59, Wayne S wrote: > > I used a newton and still have it a box. It was heavy and very slow. > Graffiti didn’t work very well either. Microsoft came put with their first > notepad running Win/NT a few years after that but it was slow too. I think > Newton was just ahead of it’s time. The cpu’s needed to run it efficiently > had not been invented yet. > The Treo and the Blackberry > > Sent from my iPhone > >>> On Aug 29, 2023, at 18:46, Grant Taylor via cctalk >>> wrote: >>> On 8/29/23 7:28 PM, David Arnold wrote: >>> Some of you might recall that Apple released a series of machines based on >>> the Newton OS in the early 1990s. >> >> ACK >> >> How do Palm Pilot's compare to the Newton? >> >> I had someone I respect and trust make a lot of comparisons between a Palm >> T3 (?) I used to carry and Newtons. He was even opening programs in a some >> sort of editor and comparing things. I distinctly remember him saying that >> he thought there was some relationship between the Newton and Palm. But >> I've never seen nor heard anything to corroborate this. >> >> >> >> -- >> Grant. . . . >> unix || die
[cctalk] Re: NewtonOS
I used a newton and still have it a box. It was heavy and very slow. Graffiti didn’t work very well either. Microsoft came put with their first notepad running Win/NT a few years after that but it was slow too. I think Newton was just ahead of it’s time. The cpu’s needed to run it efficiently had not been invented yet. The Treo and the Blackberry Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 29, 2023, at 18:46, Grant Taylor via cctalk > wrote: > On 8/29/23 7:28 PM, David Arnold wrote: >> Some of you might recall that Apple released a series of machines based on >> the Newton OS in the early 1990s. > > ACK > > How do Palm Pilot's compare to the Newton? > > I had someone I respect and trust make a lot of comparisons between a Palm T3 > (?) I used to carry and Newtons. He was even opening programs in a some sort > of editor and comparing things. I distinctly remember him saying that he > thought there was some relationship between the Newton and Palm. But I've > never seen nor heard anything to corroborate this. > > > > -- > Grant. . . . > unix || die
[cctalk] Re: NewtonOS
On 8/29/23 7:28 PM, David Arnold wrote: Some of you might recall that Apple released a series of machines based on the Newton OS in the early 1990s. ACK How do Palm Pilot's compare to the Newton? I had someone I respect and trust make a lot of comparisons between a Palm T3 (?) I used to carry and Newtons. He was even opening programs in a some sort of editor and comparing things. I distinctly remember him saying that he thought there was some relationship between the Newton and Palm. But I've never seen nor heard anything to corroborate this. -- Grant. . . . unix || die
[cctalk] Re: NewtonOS
Thanks David for taking this on. I think there are many who would welcome Apple releasing Newton as they did for the early Macintosh implementations.
[cctalk] Re: OT: Moon (Was: PDP-8/L $15,000
> On Aug 29, 2023, at 8:28 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: > > I was worried before the first lunar landing, because prior to sending > passengers, they had never previously managed a soft landing, nor take-off > from anywhere but Earth. That's only partly true. The Surveyor craft had made (unmanned) soft landings, which helped rule out the "miles of moon dust" worry. > Then, one of the Sci-Fi magazines included a very short story (a couple of > paragraphs), in which the capsule settled down onto the moon, and immediately > sank irrevocably below kilometer thick layer of dust. paul
[cctalk] NewtonOS
Some of you might recall that Apple released a series of machines based on the Newton OS in the early 1990s. There were eight models in total from Apple, and a few more from third parties who licensed both the hardware and software to make eg. ruggedized handhelds, or "smart" (landline) phones. The operating system was bespoke. It had a Lisp influence during development, but by the time it was released, it used a language called NewtonScript that had an Algol-ish syntax with Lisp/Self-like semantics. Although the OS core was written in C++, large parts of the system were written in NewtonScript as well, as were the built-in applications. Newtons ended up as a dead-end branch of computer evolution. The product line was cancelled by Jobs following his return to Apple, and despite a few little respectful nods, iOS has basically no commonality with NewtonOS. Ironically, the handwriting recognition engine (the focal point for most Newton criticism) outlived the devices and was ported to and shipped with Mac OS X. A Newton emulator, called Einstein, exists. It's able to run the OS, the built-in apps, and to install and run third-party applications with good fidelity to the original experience. It requires a ROM image to function. Apple made various ROM images available, and it's possible to extract the image from a physical Newton device, but the consensus is that it isn't legal to distribute these ROM images. This makes setting up the emulator more complex than is ideal. The NewtonTalk mailing list is a group of Newton fans that remain engaged with the platform to this day, and we're currently discussing the possibility of legally obtaining the Newton ROM images from Apple. We've been heartened by Apple's recent releases of MacPaint and the Lisa OS to the CHM, and are wondering if Apple might be persuaded to release at least the NewtonOS ROM, or (ideally) system's source code. If there's anyone who was either involved in those previous negotiations, or could introduce us to someone who was, and is willing to offer advice and/or assistance with our quest ... really, any helpful pointers would be useful, and much appreciated. Cheers, d https://github.com/pguyot/Einstein http://newtontalk.net/
[cctalk] Re: OT: Moon (Was: PDP-8/L $15,000
I was worried before the first lunar landing, because prior to sending passengers, they had never previously managed a soft landing, nor take-off from anywhere but Earth. Then, one of the Sci-Fi magazines included a very short story (a couple of paragraphs), in which the capsule settled down onto the moon, and immediately sank irrevocably below kilometer thick layer of dust.
[cctalk] Re: PDP-8/L $15,000
> On Aug 29, 2023, at 8:03 PM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk > wrote: > > On Tue, Aug 29, 2023, 7:02 AM Gavin Scott via cctalk > wrote: > >> On Tue, Aug 29, 2023 at 6:22 AM Peter Coghlan via cctalk >> wrote: >>> You reckon someone in Moscow is wishing they heard about this trick a >> week ago? >> >> They instead chose the ever-popular Simplified Planetary Landing >> Approach Trajectory. >> > > The original moon landing utilized Ballistically Unrealistic Lunar Landing > Simulation Hallucination Initiation Technology. That reminds me of a story I heard at a course in the 1980s, from E.W. Dijkstra. It sounded very implausible except for the fact that he was the source... The story was that the Apollo flight software was validated against simulators, as one might expect. But some problems were encountered during testing that were quite baffling, until someone realized that the sign of gravity was wrong in one of those simulators. Hm. paul
[cctalk] Re: PDP-8/L $15,000
On Tue, Aug 29, 2023, 7:02 AM Gavin Scott via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, Aug 29, 2023 at 6:22 AM Peter Coghlan via cctalk > wrote: > > You reckon someone in Moscow is wishing they heard about this trick a > week ago? > > They instead chose the ever-popular Simplified Planetary Landing > Approach Trajectory. > The original moon landing utilized Ballistically Unrealistic Lunar Landing Simulation Hallucination Initiation Technology. Sellam >
[cctalk] Re: PDP-8/L $15,000
On 8/29/23 06:30, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: Oh baloney. As long as the backplane pins are not mushed these are surprisingly easy to fix and mouse crap can be vacuumed out and cleaned off the cards and pins. The thing that drove me the most nuts was finding a backplane wire that had worn through its insualtion and shorted against another pin. Well, the mice pee in everything, and that is very corrosive! Jon
[cctalk] Re: PDP-8/L $15,000
I hate what epay is doing to our hobby. I prefer to sell and trade between our selves as reasonable prices understanding that a lot of what we do is sweat equity. If you think the hobby is bad, you should see what happened to housing. "I know what I got!" I have a lot of different geeky hobbies and what happened to vintage computing is idential to what happened to video games (way bigger market) and music equipment (Synths, guitar stuff.) Same with aracade games and especially pinball machines. What was a $1000 C title pinball is now $5000 with some gaudy mods taped to them. I could the be the eternal pessimist, but I think things are weakening? I have some synthesizers I rebuilt up for sale and notice the market is much slower than it was. I wish I could get a read on the video game markets which of course spill into some classic computers. I assume people are going to pull back spending at some point, but with 40% more money added to the US economy in the last few years there are people sitting on a lt of cash. Be it stock wins or PPP loan freebies or crypto or hoomer gains. If it could only dip on the stuff I want but rise on the stuff I have. - Ethan
[cctalk] Re: PDP-8/L $15,000
On Tue, Aug 29, 2023 at 6:22 AM Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > You reckon someone in Moscow is wishing they heard about this trick a week > ago? They instead chose the ever-popular Simplified Planetary Landing Approach Trajectory.
[cctalk] Re: PDP-8/L $15,000
-BUT- That does not mean it *can't* be restored, only that $15,000 is ridiculous for a machine that clearly needs an expert with time and money. b On Tue, Aug 29, 2023 at 7:54 AM Mattis Lind via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > Den tis 29 aug. 2023 kl 13:30 skrev Chris Zach via cctalk < > cctalk@classiccmp.org>: > > > Oh baloney. As long as the backplane pins are not mushed these are > > surprisingly easy to fix and mouse crap can be vacuumed out and cleaned > > off the cards and pins. > > > > The thing that drove me the most nuts was finding a backplane wire that > > had worn through its insualtion and shorted against another pin. > > > > Fully agree. Anders Sandahl in Sweden restored a PDP-8/L to operating > condition. It has been stored for many years in a damp garage. A lot of > rust, hundreds of bad components. Bad core memory but eventually it was > running fine. > > https://pdp-9.net/pdp-8-l > > So I also think it should be possible to get it to run again. > > /Mattis > > > > C > > > > On 8/29/2023 12:01 AM, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > > > Look at the photos. Let it rust in peace in mouse heaven. It is just > > scrap. > > > > > > > > > On Tue, 29 Aug 2023, 1:30 am Bill Degnan via cctalk, < > > cctalk@classiccmp.org> > > > wrote: > > > > > >> It can be yours for only $15,000 plus shipping > > >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/126067408991 > > >> > > >> sheesh. > > >> > > >> Bill > > >> > > >
[cctalk] Re: PDP-8/L $15,000
Den tis 29 aug. 2023 kl 13:30 skrev Chris Zach via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org>: > Oh baloney. As long as the backplane pins are not mushed these are > surprisingly easy to fix and mouse crap can be vacuumed out and cleaned > off the cards and pins. > > The thing that drove me the most nuts was finding a backplane wire that > had worn through its insualtion and shorted against another pin. > Fully agree. Anders Sandahl in Sweden restored a PDP-8/L to operating condition. It has been stored for many years in a damp garage. A lot of rust, hundreds of bad components. Bad core memory but eventually it was running fine. https://pdp-9.net/pdp-8-l So I also think it should be possible to get it to run again. /Mattis > C > > On 8/29/2023 12:01 AM, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > > Look at the photos. Let it rust in peace in mouse heaven. It is just > scrap. > > > > > > On Tue, 29 Aug 2023, 1:30 am Bill Degnan via cctalk, < > cctalk@classiccmp.org> > > wrote: > > > >> It can be yours for only $15,000 plus shipping > >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/126067408991 > >> > >> sheesh. > >> > >> Bill > >> >
[cctalk] Re: PDP-8/L $15,000
Oh baloney. As long as the backplane pins are not mushed these are surprisingly easy to fix and mouse crap can be vacuumed out and cleaned off the cards and pins. The thing that drove me the most nuts was finding a backplane wire that had worn through its insualtion and shorted against another pin. C On 8/29/2023 12:01 AM, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: Look at the photos. Let it rust in peace in mouse heaven. It is just scrap. On Tue, 29 Aug 2023, 1:30 am Bill Degnan via cctalk, wrote: It can be yours for only $15,000 plus shipping https://www.ebay.com/itm/126067408991 sheesh. Bill
[cctalk] Re: PDP-8/L $15,000
Fred Cisin wrote: On Tue, 29 Aug 2023, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: My trick for successful landing the CDC Cyber/6000 series lunar lander version was to set the initial height above the moon's surface to the minimum height of 1' and then let it drop. I never successful landed from the default height above the surface. It was seriously difficult. Is that why people don't go to the moon very often, any more? :-) You reckon someone in Moscow is wishing they heard about this trick a week ago? (This stuff is before my time. I should go and dig out DECLander on VWS for my VAXStation 2000...) Regards, Peter Coghlan
