[cctalk] Re: Voyager 1 revived. [was: Z80 vs other microprocessors of the time. ]

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

When Voyager was out of contact and it was in the press, I was curious if
any of the Voyager computer details were public. I have not found much
detailed information online.

I don't think it is a security concern, who has a big enough antenna.

On Tue, Apr 23, 2024 at 4:27 PM Van Snyder via cctalk 
wrote:

> On Tue, 2024-04-23 at 12:45 -0500, CAREY SCHUG via cctalk wrote:
> > Sorry, I guess this should dead end, it is too far off track.  I will
> still post this since I was among those misled into thinking it had an 1802
> microprocessor.  The galileo had an 1802, but it suicided.
> >
> > from Wikipedia:
> >
> > It has been erroneously reported[41] on the Internet that the Voyager
> > space probes were controlled by a version of the RCA 1802 (RCA
> > CDP1802 "COSMAC" microprocessor), but such claims are not supported
> > by the primary design documents. The CDP1802 microprocessor was used
> > later in the Galileo space probe, which was designed and built years
> > later. The digital control electronics of the Voyagers were not based
> > on a microprocessor integrated-circuit chip.
> >
> > --Carey
>
> NASA has an article about the Voyager computers (two each of three
> different kinds) at
> https://voyager.jpl.nasa.gov/frequently-asked-questions/
>
> Look for the pop-open "What kind of computers are used on the Voyager
> spacecraft?"
>
> The last paragraph is "Voyager was built in-house at JPL; the computers
> were manufactured by General Electric to JPL specifications."
>
>

[cctalk] Voyager spacecraft computer

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

Voyager 1 is in the news recently because of communications problems and
possible solutions. Is there an online source for documentation on the
Voyager systems, especially the computers and navigation systems?

I have enjoyed reviewing the Apollo systems documentation on the Virtual
AGS Home Page and wondered if there were similar documents available for
Voyager.

-chuck

[cctalk] Re: Current Loop Schematics

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

I built such a thing several years ago. (I would share the schematics, but
eschema seems to have changed file formats.) I used a MAX232 for the RS232
side. There are lots of variations on that 5V supply RS232 converter that
provide "real" RS232 levels.

For the current loop side I referenced DEC schematics with the same
function. There are lots of variations. KL8-JA has some nice old school
stuff with some common mode rejection. KL8-E on the other hand is pretty
minimalist. DL11-W has probably the last of the current loop designs and
has opto-couplers for isolation.

If you need to provide the current loop source, there are some Teletype
schematics that include the loop current sources. Usually they are pretty
primitive and include rectifiers directly connected to line voltage.

Chuck


On Tue, May 2, 2023 at 5:29 PM Martin Bishop via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Led Driver ICs may merit consideration, e.g.
> https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/led-driver-ics/7377975 for 20 mA.
> However, they usu have a not insignificant voltage drop (a few Volts).  I
> have used lots of 10 mA versions for sensing switch / relay closures,
> typically with an ACPL-217 as sense element.  And, these days, the catalogs
> are replete with LED drivers.
>
> The classic TLR solution, e.g. 1.25 V drop with an LM317, is written up by
> Horrowitz and Hill as Current Sources - Three terminal regulator as current
> source [3rd Edn $9.3.14 A, pp620] and many data sheets / ANs.  The LED
> drivers seem to work just as well, 10+ years ago the LM317 was my standard
> design.
>
> Martin
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Tony Duell via cctalk [mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org]
> Sent: 02 May 2023 14:06
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org>
> Cc: Tony Duell 
> Subject: [cctalk] Re: Current Loop Schematics
>
> On Tue, May 2, 2023 at 1:34 PM Paul Koning via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> > It seems surprisingly hard to find that, though this
> https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/rs-232-to-current-loop-interface.47841/
> is close.
> >
> > Conceptually it's really easy.  The main tricky part, certainly if
> you're driving a mechanical terminal like a Teletype, is the current
> source.  You need something that can drive 20 mA into an inductive load.
> The classic answer was to use a fairly high voltage with a big series
> resistor so the inductive impedance is much less than the resistance.  A
> current regulator would be a modern replacement.  Also, for the case of the
> inductive load, you'd need a shunt diode across the switch to absorb the
> voltage spike from the inductor when the current is switched off, otherwise
> the switching transistor will be quickly destroyed.
>
>
> The common version of the Model 33 Teletype with a current loop interface
> [1] has a bit of electronics inside. A little driver PCB with a couple of
> transistors on it, a power transformer for it and so on. The result is that
> although the interface is 20mA or 60mA current loop you are not driving the
> receive magnet directly and there are no high voltage spikes at the
> interface terminals.
>
> [1] This is by far the most common version of the Model 33 in the UK.
>
> If you do have to drive the solenoid directly then (as you're in the
> UK) look out for the RSGB [2] Teleprinter Handbook. Although, not
> surprisingly, this is biased towards amateur radio RTTY operation, it has a
> lot of information on mechanical teleprinters, how to drive them (with
> circuit diagrams) and so on.
>
> [2] Radio Society of Great Britain. Basically our equivalent of the ARRL.
>
> -tony
>

[cctalk] Re: How to reproduce the DEC cabinets' grey colour paint?

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

My attempt at the colors from several years ago.

http://www.chdickman.com/pdp8/DECcolors/

CHM = Color Harmony Manual

Re: PCI floppy controller

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

On Thu, Apr 21, 2022 at 10:34 PM Chuck Guzis  wrote:

> On 4/21/22 18:01, Charles Dickman wrote:
> > On Thu, Apr 21, 2022 at 8:02 PM Chuck Guzis via cctal
> > I was at that point and looking at DP3T switches to have an external
> > connection as well. DP3T switches are mess.
>
> You could also bring the floppy cable out to a standard DC-37 connector
> on a bracket, then use a ABCD switchbox to select whatever external
> DC-37-cabled floppy drive you wanted.


Where would you see those DC37 connectors for external floppies? I remember
them, but not exactly where.

I ended up getting a DPDT switch from the hardware store. A bit of ribbon
cable, some hot glue and a couple pop-rivets and it works like a charm.


> --Chuck
>
>
-chuck

Re: PCI floppy controller

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

On Thu, Apr 21, 2022 at 8:30 PM Mike Loewen via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On Thu, 21 Apr 2022, Charles Dickman via cctalk wrote:
> > I am trying to outfit a computer for the long haul that can run a bunch
> of
> > older software in virtual machines and do things like duplicate floppies
> in
> > different formats. The motherboard I have supports all the formats I have
> > tried, but only supports one drive. It also only has PCI and PCIe slots.
>
> You might consider going with a different (older) motherboard with a
> floppy
> controller that supports
>

I thought about that too, but I'm trying to stick with the hardware that I
have. It is an ASUS board and an AMD Phenom II X955 processor. I have found
a sweet spot between the Ubuntu version, kernel version and VMWARE version
that run my virtual machines.


> Mike Loewen mloe...@cpumagic.scol.pa.us
> Old Technology  http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/


-chuck

Re: PCI floppy controller

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

On Thu, Apr 21, 2022 at 8:02 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 4/21/22 16:47, Charles Dickman via cctalk wrote:
> > Were there ever any floppy controllers for the (parallel) PCI bus? I
> > Googled a bunch and haven't found any.
>


> external one.Works a treat--recall that you need only switch the
> drive select and motor enable lines, so a DPDT switch suffices.  I like
>

I was at that point and looking at DP3T switches to have an external
connection as well. DP3T switches are mess.


> --Chuck
>

-chuck

PCI floppy controller

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

Were there ever any floppy controllers for the (parallel) PCI bus? I
Googled a bunch and haven't found any.

I am trying to outfit a computer for the long haul that can run a bunch of
older software in virtual machines and do things like duplicate floppies in
different formats. The motherboard I have supports all the formats I have
tried, but only supports one drive. It also only has PCI and PCIe slots.

-chuck

Re: TRS-80 Question

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

On Tue, Apr 12, 2022 at 3:46 PM Fred Cisin via cctech 
wrote:

> >> There's a 2K hole in the Model I memory map above the ROM
> On Tue, 12 Apr 2022, Yeechang Lee via cctech wrote:
> > Is this the hole that causes stock Model I to not run CP/M?
>
> NO.
> The problem with CP/M on TRS80 is that CP/M expects RAM from location 0 on
> up.


When I was a freshman at Purdue, I lugged my Model III to my dorm room and
connected to the ECN network with a 300 baud modem. I used a local editor
and wrote a Pascal program to upload my Pascal source to the dual processor
VAX-11/780 (Google George Goble), ea or eb, (I don't remember) that was
used by our introductory programming class. The terminal program I had was
something I found in Byte magazine in assembler and I modified it for the
TRS-80. I had BASIC, Assembler and Fortran on the TRS-80 M III, so it was
probably all in assembly.

There was an article in Byte about CP/M for the TRS-80 Model III that
described a hack to swap the ROM for RAM. The idea was to invert bits A15
and A14. That would move the ROM and keyboard from  to C000. There was
a spare bit in some 4 bit register, so all you had to do was cut a couple
traces and insert some XOR gates. I remember doing the modification on a
Saturday while listening to the Purdue football game on the radio. I put it
all back together and it worked. WoHo!

At that point though I had no access to CP/M or where I might get it legal
or otherwise, but I was good to go when I found it.

I still have the computer and I still have the Byte copy. So 37 years later
I should try to complete the project.

-chuck

Re: DEC RX01 Parts

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

On Fri, Jan 7, 2022 at 7:41 PM Mike Katz via cctalk 
wrote:

>
> I don't know if the circuit boards are compatible with the RX8E
> Controller. The Read/Write Control Board is labeled 243A and the Floppy
> Disk Control Board is labeled 245A.
>

What I know about the RX01/RX02 is only from poring over the manuals and
schematics.

There is only one RX01 system. It is compatible with all the controllers.
There may be a jumper.

I don't have any other 8" floppy systems to format the disks in.
>

The format is IBM 3740. So quite common in the way that 8 inch floppies are
common.

-chuck

Re: 3phase power for VAXen [was Re: VAX 780 on eBay]

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

On Tue, Jan 4, 2022 at 5:17 PM Rich Alderson via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

>
> We did not have a 3phase outlet on the second floor of the building where
> the
> collection was housed, and there was no room for the first VAX in the small
> computer room on the third floor, so Ian and Keith came up with an
> alternative:
> They tested all the outlets on the second floor and determined that there
> were
> three within reach of the room in which Ian was going to work on the 785
> which
> were fed from 3 different phases off the big honking breaker panel (200A
> service, IIRC).  Keith put together a box with the appropriate NEMA socket
> and
> three heavy duty cords feeding into it, which in turn were plugged into
> three
> outlets on the walls around what eventually became the vintage exhibition
> hall
> at Living Computers: Museum + Labs (the eventual name of the place after
> the
> modern exhibit space on the first floor was built).
>
> So it's possible to power a 780 or 785 without a power supply rebuild if
> you
> simply have the right (industrial) breaker panel in your building...
>
> Happy New Year, everybody!
>
> Rich
>

After looking at the 869-D diagrams and the 11/780 power diagram, this
makes sense. The power diagrams show 3 120VAC circuits. There is no phase
relationship required between the phases, EXCEPT in the 869-D itself. The 4
pole 30A circuit breaker will trip if any (L1, L2, L3, N) is overloaded. If
L1, L2, L3 are out of phase then the neutral doesn't carry much current,
but if they are all the same phase then the total limit will be 30A.

There are 4 connections L1, L2, L3 and N.

In the US you would connect the highest current draw leg to one side of the
120VAC and connect the other two legs to the other 120VAC phase and then
HOPE that it works.

The 869-D outlet are:
unswitched L1
switched L1
switched L2
switched L3

For me, if I can buy a Shelby Cobra, I buy it first and figure out where to
park it later.

Chuck D.

Re: 3-phase power

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

On Tue, Jan 4, 2022 at 12:00 PM Adrian Stoness via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> you can use a vfd drives to get 3phase power from single u just gotta size
> them bigger then the load u would normally need
>
> Yes, in principle this is true. In the simplest case, the VFD input is
just a 6 diode full wave rectifier into a capacitor. BUT things like power
factor correction on modern drives means the input circuit is a lot more
complex. Usually the small VFD will be designed for single phase power or
3phase power and the derating is done for you. Using a 3phase drive on
single phase typically won't work because the drive will detect a phase
loss and shut down. I know for one Rockwell drive there was an internal
hack that allowed it to work on single phase so the sales people could plug
into a 120vac outlet.

Chuck D.

SCSI2SD project origination Re: SCSI2SD in a DEC 3000/300 - T-ERR-SCSI A

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

Where is the original project for SCSI2SD? A quick google and I find a
bunch of suppliers, but where is the base project from.

-chuck

Re: RQDX3 firmware sources

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

On Sat, Aug 28, 2021 at 8:01 AM emanuel stiebler via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 2021-08-26 20:22, Charles Dickman via cctalk wrote:
> > Has anyone tried to compile the sources? succeeded?
>
> Where did you find the sources?
>

http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/qbus/rqdxx/rqdx3_src.zip

OMNIBUS board handle spacers

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

I just printed some board handles for a 32k OMNIBUS board (thanks Vince
Slyngstad, et al.) I now notice that all the OMNIBUS boards have an extra
0.1in spacer between the board and the handle. UNIBUS and QBus boards and
logic flip chips don't have the spacer.

Anyone else notice this and understand why?

The only thing I can see is that it might adjust for the over the top
connectors used on a lot of OMNIBUS boards.

-chuck

Re: RQDX3 firmware sources

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 10:49 PM Doc Shipley via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 8/26/21 19:22, Charles Dickman via cctalk wrote:
>
> > I'm not even going to try, but I think the actual low-level formatter
> code
> > is missing. Was curious if anyone else noticed that too.
>
>I always thought that the service diagnostics were the only
> formatting code available for the RQDX3?
>
>
The diagnostic ZRQC actually invokes a program internal to the RQDX3 to do
the formatting. That internal program is missing.


>
> Doc
>

RQDX3 firmware sources

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

Has anyone tried to compile the sources? succeeded?

I'm not even going to try, but I think the actual low-level formatter code
is missing. Was curious if anyone else noticed that too.

-chuck

Re: Multiprocessor Qbus PDP-11

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

On Fri, Aug 20, 2021 at 7:55 AM Paul Koning  wrote:

>
>
> > On Aug 19, 2021, at 7:39 PM, Charles Dickman via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> > There are indications in the KDJ11-B processor spec on bitsavers that the
> > M8190 could be used in a multiprocessor configuration. For example, bit
> 10
> > of the Maintenance Register (17 777 750) is labeled "Multiprocessor
> Slave"
> > and indicates that the bus arbitrator is disabled.
>


> Interesting.
>
> > Would it be as simple as connecting to 11/83 qbus together? And adding
> the
> > proper software.
>
> I would not think so.  The processor is the bus controller, and you can't
> have a bus with two controllers.  It would be a bit like trying to connect
> a pair of PCs with a PCI or PCIe jumper cable.
>
> To make these configurations work you need a device in between that
> arbitrates the actions of the multiple controllers (PCI people call that a
> "non-transparent bridge").
>
Understood, but the processor spec indicates that it should be possible to
turn off the local arbitrator, so the processor at one end would have its
arbitrator on and the processor at the other end would have the arbitrator
turned off.



> paul
>
>

Multiprocessor Qbus PDP-11

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

There are indications in the KDJ11-B processor spec on bitsavers that the
M8190 could be used in a multiprocessor configuration. For example, bit 10
of the Maintenance Register (17 777 750) is labeled "Multiprocessor Slave"
and indicates that the bus arbitrator is disabled. There is also section
6.6, "Cache Multi-Processor Hooks", that describes cache features that
allow multiprocessor operation.

Would it be as simple as connecting to 11/83 qbus together? And adding the
proper software.

Anybody ever heard of such a thing?

Chuck

Re: DEC PDP-8/e Omnibus backplane lubrication

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

On Tue, May 11, 2021 at 1:12 PM Al Kossow via cctalk 
wrote:

>
> > I would suggest Caig
>
> I would suggest researching and understanding what their snake oil does
> before
> using any Caig product.
>
> Do not underestimate the lure of a good snake oil. I long for the smell of
my ASR33. That KS7470 oil was magic.

I stored it in the attic and would visit from time to time. But now the
smell is gone. Evaporated. Like the perfume of a lost love it is no
longer there.

-chuck

Re: Hard To Believe This Person Is Serious

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

At least it is a physical item and not a two pixel tiff called "black and
white", offered as an NFT for £1M.

On Thu, Mar 25, 2021 at 1:45 PM Rob Jarratt via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/313467585213
>
>
>
>

OS-9/68k Control Coprocessor module

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

I came across an Allen-Bradley 1771-DMC4 Control Coprocessor. If you are
familiar with AB PLC's, it is a 1771-IO chassis module that could be a
"sidecar" for a PLC5 PLC or a standalone module.

It runs some version of OS-9/68k on a 68340 processor. It has 4MB static
ram and a 10MB ethernet AUI connector. I hooked up a terminal and can get
to an OS-9 prompt. It has by default a 64k RAM disk that is empty. The best
I can gather is that there was an external IDE (AB 1771-PCB PCbridge) that
was used to create programs that were loaded onto the RAM disk. Once
configured it would run standalone.

Microware is still around in some form so OS-9 is not completely dead and I
did find some references to a Microware product called PBbridge. It would
be interesting to experiment with.

I am curious if anyone has any experience with this hardware, with the IDE
or OS-9/68k in general. I've never seen much discussion of OS-9/68k on
classicmp.

RALGOL - A PDP8 ALGOL 60

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

I played around with this algol 60 compiler for the PDP8 and succeeded in
getting it to run. I have not found any other notes, so I thought that I
would give a leg up to the next one that wants to work on it.

-chuck



This ALGOL 60 implementation for the PDP8 was written by Roger H. Abbott
while he was at Oxford.

The bits are here:
http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/pdp8/papertapeImages/russ.ucs.indiana.edu/Langs/Algol/

A copy of the manual here:
https://archive.org/details/hack42_ROG_ALGOL_Compiler

A paper here:
http://pdp8.de/download/RogAlgol.pdf

Mr. Abbotts business is here:
http://www.angelfire.com/biz/rhaminisys/index.html

The website or the host is a bit sketchy. The business is probably defunct.
I found a link that said Mr. Abbott died in the early 2000.

The system is two parts: the compiler and the runtime.

This is all assuming the use of OS/8.

To create the SV file for the compiler:
.R ABSLDR
*INTRUN.BN,ALGCOM.BN,COMOS8.BN$
.SAVE SYS:ALGCOM.SV
.R ALGCOM.SV

To create the SV file for the runtime system/loader:
.R ABSLDR
*FPP.BN,ALGRUN.BN,RUNOS8.BN
.SAVE SYS:RALGOL.SV
.R RALGOL.SV

There are other options for the FPP.BN for other hardware possibilities.
FPEAE8.BN for the classic pdp8 EAE and FPPEAE.BN for the PDP8/e EAE. This
needs some testings.

Running an ALGOL program:

.TYPE FLOAT.AL
'BEGIN'
  'REAL' A,B;
  TEXT(1,"HELLO WORLD!");
  SKIP(1);
  A := 3.141592;
  B := COS(A);
  TEXT(1,"A = ");
  RWRITE(1,A);
  SKIP(1);
  TEXT(1,"B = COS(A) = ");
  RWRITE(1,B);
'END'
$

.R ALGCOM

ROGALGOL MK40
OUT

Re: OT: the end of Dyn DNS

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

On Thu, Jun 27, 2019 at 1:55 AM Ali via cctalk 
wrote:

> > > Now that Dyn has been absorbed by Oracle I need a new DNS service
> > > for my vanity domain. I welcome suggestions for a replacement
> > provider.
>
> What is the exact issue here? As I understand it DynDNS is still being
> offered as a service. Is it because there is no longer a free option?
>
>
This is a quote from the email I received regarding the Standard DNS
service. It was not the free service.

"Now that this integration work is complete, Oracle is announcing the
end-of-life of the Standard DNS service in favor of our upgraded version on
the Oracle Cloud Infrastructure platform. On May 31, 2020, the “EOL Date”,
the Standard DNS will be retired and will no longer be available. The
upgrade to Oracle Cloud Infrastructure will require some actions on your
part and must be completed on or before the EOL Date. "

I take this to mean that I have one year to migrate to Oracle or move along.

-Ali
>
>

OT: the end of Dyn DNS

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

Now that Dyn has been absorbed by Oracle I need a new DNS service for my
vanity domain. I welcome suggestions for a replacement provider.

-chuck

OS8 filesystem tools

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

Besides PUTR are there any tools for reading and writing to pdp8 OS8 device
images? Something with source for Linux maybe?

Re: How were 32-bit minis built in the 70s/80?

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

On Sat, May 11, 2019 at 8:50 PM Steve Malikoff via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> I could be remembering incorrectly but I think the Gould PN6080 mini we
> had exclusively for third year
> comp sci at Macquarie Uni in the mid/late 80s was 32-bit made up of
> AMD2900 family logic (2901 ALU's).
>

Purdue EE had I think 2 Gould PowerNode 9080s. I don't know anything about
the internals, but Purdue EE was doing development or testing for them. It
might have been a port of 4.3 BSD. As an undergraduate you could get an
account on en.ecn.purdue.edu for the asking and it was significantly faster
than the overloaded Dual VAXen. It also crashed from time to time.

-chuck

Re: AW: 50Hz Pulley for 8" Floppy Drive Mitshubishi M2894-63B

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

On Sat, Nov 10, 2018 at 3:27 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> One could also take Tony's approach and simply cobble up a
> crystal-controlled 60Hz source for the motor.  Shouldn't be too
> difficult--I suspect that the motor doesn't draw more than about 30W.
> If you had an excess of 12VDC, you could possibly use an inexpensive
> inverter to do the job.
>
>
Never saw a floppy drive with an AC motor. In the past discussions about
50Hz vs 60Hz drive, I expected it to be a 120/240 VAC motor. So is it
actually a low voltage (synchronous) AC motor?

Re: PDP-8 signed overflow detection

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

On Mon, Mar 25, 2019 at 1:26 AM Kyle Owen via cctalk 
wrote:

>
> All this to fix a ~45 year old bug in Spacewar! where a ship's velocity
> overflows, causing the ship to "bounce" off of nothing.
>
> I would have figured it was bouncing off a chunk of dark matter.

Cool stuff! PDP-8 programming always seems a bit like puzzle solving.

Kyle
>

Re: Matching paint on DEC monitors, cases and cabinets

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

On Fri, Mar 22, 2019 at 8:26 AM Brian Roth via cctalk 
wrote:

> Has anyone ever found a source for aerosol spray cans that are a close
> matchto the colors that DEC used on their cases and such? I remember seeing
> touch up colors mentioned in the past. Specifically the ivory/almond
> colorof VT100's, DECservers, etc.
> Brian
>

On the topic of DEC colors, FWIW,

A few years ago I took DEC STD 092 and attempted to converted the colors to
RGB. You can take the conversions with a grain of salt, but the Color
Specifications are from the standard.

http://www.chdickman.com/pdp8/DECcolors/

SCSI2SD: Is it worth a try?

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

What is the experience with the SCSI2SD with old computers? It looks to be
SCSI-1 and SCSI-2 compatible and I see a lot of reports of usage on this
list. I am curious about how well it works and which version to get.

Versions up to 5 seem to be GPLed and reasonably available. V6 does not
seem to have schematics or boards open sourced and I haven't seen a
supplier for them. The web page lists some sources, but they don't have the
V6 available.

It looks like the V6 is not open because someone used the design without
following the GPL.

V6 claims synchronous transfers, but I don't think most of my hardware
supports it. That consists of VAXstations and qbus scsi cards. If I was
after speed I wouldn't be using old hardware, but the speed has to be
consistent with the era.

Chuck

Re: 2.11 BSD on an 11/93 with an CMD SCSI Module

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

Bill,

Here's the patched boot loader that you need.

http://www.chdickman.com/pdp11/rauboot.s

The rest is an exercise for the student. :-) Its about the journey, not the
destination, otherwise we would be somewhere else.

I have to say that it took a lot of patience to get 2.11BSD running on my
first PDP-11/73. I think it was about 3 years before I was able to get the
parts together and figure out the method. SIMH didn't have MSCP support and
there was a bug in ra boot loader that took a while to fix.

Chuck


On Sat, Mar 16, 2019 at 6:42 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 3/16/19 3:12 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> >
> >>> Now I need a program that can move Tape data back and forth between
> >>> real drives and tap/tpc images.  Anybody got one?
> >
> > https://github.com/brouhaha/tapeutils
> >
>
> I just took a quick glance but somehow I doubt that's going
> to compile or run on a PDP-11.  :-)  u32?
>
> I grabbed a copy.  I am willing to try almost anything.  :-)
>
> bill
>
>

WTB Allen-Bradley PLC-2/30, etc

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

I am interested in old programmable controllers. I would like to put
together a Allen-Bradley PLC-2/30 controller with at least one 1771 IO
Chassis and some IO modules.

ebay has some thing for a price, but if anyone has this type of hardware I
would be interested.

pdp-11 ethernet boot

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

The boot ROMs for uPDP-11 contain loaders for XH (ethernet) was there any
kind of standard for the server?

It tries to load from a MOP DL server and I have modified mopd from NetBSD
to respond and load 2.11bsd a.out. So I have a solution, but was curious if
there was some DEC standard.

NEC Multisync monitor manual

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

I am looking for a manual for the original NEC Multisync monitor.

Google fails me because of all the follow on monitors had Multisync in the name.

-chuck

IBM Model M keyboard for 3192

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

I got a box of miscellaneous model M keyboards last week. One of them
has 122 keys and the connector is the size of a PC/AT type circular
DIN connector, but the 5 pins are spread over 240deg instead of the
AT's 180deg. The part no. is 1390702 and a little research found it is
from an IBM 3192 terminal.

Is it electrically/protocol compatible with the PC/AT and PS/2
keyboard or a different animal completely?

-chuck

HP scope mailing list

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

Is there an HP scope and instrument mailing list?

I have an HP 181A storage scope that I would like to get working again.

-chuck

Re: PDP-11/84 Qbus slots for memory

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

On Sun, Jul 22, 2018 at 8:47 AM, Mark Matlock via cctech
 wrote:
>Now my question is, there are 3 Bus slots in the 11/84 above the Unibus 
> map board, would it be possible
> to put a dual width Q22 I/O board in the second memory slot (not the PMI side 
> of the slot) and have it
> able to DMA into the MSV11-JE?

The answer I have heard here over and over is that an 11/84 with the
UNIBUS adapter and PMI memory does not have a Qbus. As I understand
it, the KDJ11-B (M8190) bus protocols change when a KTJ11 (UNIBUS
adapter) is present and so what would be expected to be Qbus isn't.

Others can probably explain the details and I think there was a DEC
Micronote that explained the protocol modifications involved.

> Mark

-chuck

Re: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM?

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

Below is a sampling of disks recorded between 2001 and 2009. It is
likely that the disks of the same type were from the same package
because I don't use many disks. They were stored without much care,
but in a spaces tolerable to humans for reasonable periods.

Imation CD-Rrecorded 2003/12/29  readable
Imation CD-Rrecorded 2004/01/02  recoverable errors
Imation CR-Rrecorded 2001/12/18  recoverable errors
Imation CD-Rrecorded 2005/07/15  recoverable errors
Imation CD-Rrecorded 2001/12/24  recoverable errors
TDK  DVD-R recorded 2006/02/05  recoverable errors
TDK  DVD-R recorded 2009/09   unrecoverable errors. The
edges of the disk have a strange faded coloration.
TDK  DVD-R recorded 2007/10/07  readable
Memorex  CD-Rrecorded 2005unrecoverable errors

-chuck

CoCo OS/9 was: TRS-80 floppy

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

So what does it take to get OS/9 running on a Radio Shack Color Computer?

I have a Color Computer 2 (? 64k and non-chicklet keyboard) and have
always wanted to get it working with a disk OS. What do I need? I see
a reproduction floppy disk controller on ebay. I would rather skip
that and go straight to some kind of sold state memory.

Suggestions or pointer to active groups?

On Sun, Jul 22, 2018 at 5:31 PM, W2HX via cctalk  wrote:
> Not mine, just thought it might interest some here
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/202376723756

-chuck

FPGA implementations of DEC processors

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

There are enough pdp8 fpga that they have started to calll themselves
YAPDP8FPGA.

So what are the really good FPGA DEC processors?

-chuck

Re: PDP8/e programmers consoles

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 11:27 AM, Doug Ingraham via cctalk
<cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 8:02 PM, Charles Dickman via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Mar 16, 2018 at 9:59 PM, allison via cctalk
>> <cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>
>> >> Has anyone ever seen a PDP8/i style console for the PDP8/e?

>> I know the 8/I panel won't work with an 8/e. My question was if there
>> was a special seen in the wild that had all the register values like
>> the 8/i did since the panel interface clearly supports it.
>>
>
> This would certainly be possible.  I discussed exactly this possibility a
> few years
> ago with a now departed friend.  We did a cursory search at the time and
> didn't
> turn up anything.  Of course there are lots of smart people out there who
> do a lot
> of clever things and never bother to tell the net.  My bet would be that
> nobody
> has wanted this enough to make their own omnibus front panel when there are
> still real panels and machines readily available.
>
> I guess you can be the first!  Best wishes.

Not sure I want to go there...

If you have ever looked at the DEC part number listing on bitsaver's
you will be amazed at all the specials that were done. And that was
what I was really interested in. Did DEC ever make a fancy panel that
displayed all the registers? The original designer had it in mind
since he displays a selected register at runtime during TS1 and when
the processor is stopped since that is TS1.

> --
> Doug Ingraham
> PDP-8 SN 1175

Charles Dickman
PDP-8/e SN 2630

Re: PDP8/e programmers consoles

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

On Fri, Mar 16, 2018 at 10:31 PM, Kyle Owen via cctalk
 wrote:

> The bulbs are still available on Mouser. I've ordered a bunch for my 8/e
> and have been very happy with them.
>
> http://so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/repair/bulbs.php
>

I assume you mean the CM7371 not quite but almost the same bulb? That
is what I have used as replacement also.

>> > Another console question...
>> >
>> > Has anyone ever seen a PDP8/i style console for the PDP8/e? Looking at
>> > the way the PDP8/e console functions, it should be possible to time
>> > multiplex all the register to the data bus so they are all visible at
>> > once when the machine is halted.
>> No and can't!   The 8i (nor the 8L) was not omnibus.
>>
>
> I think he's aware (hence "style").

Yep.

> Kyle
>
>>

Re: PDP8/e programmers consoles

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

On Fri, Mar 16, 2018 at 9:59 PM, allison via cctalk
<cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> On 03/16/2018 08:28 PM, Charles Dickman via cctalk wrote:
>> So the PDP8/e used the KC8-EA programmers console which has
>> incandescent indicator lamps and the PDP8/f used the KC8-FL
>> programmers console which has LED indicator lamps.
> Wrong.  The 8f uses the same as the 8e.  It was the 8m that had the
> LED console.  If memory serves it was date of design that influenced it.

My information was based on the maintenance manual. I dug a little
deeper and see that the KC8-M is the operator panel that had only one
switch and the KC8-ML is a programmers panel and has the same PCB as
the KC8-FL that I referenced.

Clearly the panels were not rigidly associated with a machine model.

> Allison
>
>
>> -chuck
>

-chuck

Re: PDP8/e programmers consoles

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

On Fri, Mar 16, 2018 at 9:59 PM, allison via cctalk
 wrote:

>> Has anyone ever seen a PDP8/i style console for the PDP8/e? Looking at
>> the way the PDP8/e console functions, it should be possible to time
>> multiplex all the register to the data bus so they are all visible at
>> once when the machine is halted.
> No and can't!   The 8i (nor the 8L) was not omnibus.  The boards to make

I know the 8/I panel won't work with an 8/e. My question was if there
was a special seen in the wild that had all the register values like
the 8/i did since the panel interface clearly supports it.

> Allison
>
>
>> -chuck
>

Re: DEC bus edge connectors

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

On Fri, Mar 16, 2018 at 8:59 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk
 wrote:
> Have you looked through Douglas Electronics' offerings? They have a lot of
> DEC-backplane compatible boards that might be what you want, e.g.:
>
>   http://www.douglas.com/index.php/18-de-77.html
>
> this one.

Interesting. I have looked at them before on the larger perf boards,
but that is a good price for what I want. Thanks for the pointer,

-chuck

DEC bus edge connectors

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

Does anyone have DEC bus edge connectors they are willing to sell? I
would like to do some OMNIBUS interface prototyping and I need a way
to connect to the bus back-plane. In my mis-guided youth I resorted so
sawing them off perfectly good boards. I would rather not do that
again.

If anyone has prototype boards they have designed with fingers or dead
boards they would part I will take them. My methods are crude, but
effective.

-chuck

PDP8/e programmers consoles

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

So the PDP8/e used the KC8-EA programmers console which has
incandescent indicator lamps and the PDP8/f used the KC8-FL
programmers console which has LED indicator lamps.

Why?

The maintenance manual says that LEDs are more reliable. The operation
is as far as I know the same. The LED version doesn't need the +8VDC
supply, but that seems an advantage for it. I remember reading that
the EAE had some revision dependencies with the console, so were there
bus timing problems with the LED console that limited it to short
buses?

Maybe this changed over time, but it overlapped long enough for them
to have both described in the maintenance manual and specific to the
application.

Another console question...

Has anyone ever seen a PDP8/i style console for the PDP8/e? Looking at
the way the PDP8/e console functions, it should be possible to time
multiplex all the register to the data bus so they are all visible at
once when the machine is halted.

-chuck

Re: PDP11 I/O page memory map

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

On Thu, Mar 1, 2018 at 9:04 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk
 wrote:
> That's true when the MMU is disabled; if so it supplies 1 bits for the upper 
> bits for page 7,
> and zeroes for the other pages.  But if the MMU is enabled, all mapping goes 
> through its mapping
> registers, and page 7 is no longer special.  By software convention, kernel 
> data page 7 is
> configured to point to the I/O page, but that isn't required.  If you wanted 
> to be be perverse you
> could map the I/O page via page 6 and confuse a whole generation of 
> programmers.

So if the I/O page is completely (all processor modes) unmapped is
there any way to recover besides a power cycle? Does the RESET
instruction disable the MMU?

-chuck

WTB: M8360 Omnibus Data Break Interface

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

Does anyone have a M8360 they are willing to part with?

Let me know offline.

-chuck

Re: Vaxstation 4000 m60 and NetBSD

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

On Sun, Dec 17, 2017 at 7:09 AM, Marco Rauhut via cctalk
 wrote:
> Thanks for your quick answer!
>
> Hardware support say no support for LCG Graphics :-(
>
> Marco

There are a few people willing to work on graphics for old
vaxstations, but there is no documentation.

If anyone has documentation, the netbsd vax port mailing list would be
very interested.

-chuck

PDP8 ALGOL

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

I have been looking at the available software for the PDP8,
particularly languages. I see there was an ALGOL. The source is
archived on Bitsavers and dbit.

There is some information here:
http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/ALGOL/algol60impl/

Has anyone played with this before? Is there any additional
information on how to use it?

-chuck

Powering Sun 3/60 without a chassis was Re: Sun 3/50 processor board and unknown processor

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

On Tue, Nov 21, 2017 at 1:51 AM, Mattis Lind  wrote:

> I think this is a 3/60 processor. Not 3/50.

I said 3/50 because that is what the silkscreen says. I found some
picture online and the 3/50 was a different layout. It sure looks like
a 3/60

Looking at some online schematics it looks like the P3 96 pin DIN
connector may only be for power. Is it possible to power this thing
through that connector without a proper chassis?

I know nothing about Sun hardware.

-chuck

Sun 3/50 processor board and unknown processor

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

I was given two boards that were "spares for a PDP-11/40." The
business that I got my PDP-11/40 from was cleaning out storage and
found these two boards and gave them to me.

It looks like board 2 is for a Sun 3/50 workstation. Board 1 is some
kind of micro-programmed processor based on AM29331 and AM29331. There
are also some Analog Devices DSPs.

AM29000 based processor with Analog Device DSPs
http://www.chdickman.com/board1.jpg

Sun 3/50 processor
http://www.chdickman.com/board2.jpg

Can anyone identify them?

-chuck

DEC manual typeface

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

For those interested in all things DEC, I found a typeface that is
very close to the typeface used in the old 60's and very early 70's
manuals. Google for "Function Pro Book font".

The only difference I saw was in the upper case I. Sometimes DEC used
an I that had serifs and sometimes they didn't.  Function Pro's I does
not have serifs.


-chuck

Re: Strange grounding problem

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 8:23 PM, Adrian Graham via cctalk
 wrote:

> Schematic for the circuits is here - 
> http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/newbrainPowerupCircuits.png 
>  - top circuit 
> is PWRUP and the bottom one is RESET that goes straight to the Z80.
>

CD4000 logic can't handle inputs pulled above the power pin or below
the ground pin without the possibility of malfunctioning or even
complete failure. Google for "CD4000 parasitic SCR" or "CMOS
latch-up". When power is cycled rapidly, the caps will still have
charge which could cause the latch-up. I did some industrial control
designs with CD4000 and used similar timing circuits, but always
included diodes to prevent inputs from being driven too high or too
low. I would have put diodes across both of the resistors.

Adding your probes may change the currents inside the chip that change
the latch-up behavior. Of course it also only makes sense if the power
is cycled quickly for some value of quickly. Others may have an
explanation, but that was my first thought from looking at the
schematic.

-chuck

Re: 40pin Berg connectors, the DEC alphabet, and pin numbering

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

and of course there's a typo.

Is pin A == pin 1 or pin 40 ?

On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 8:28 PM, Charles Dickman <c...@chdickman.com> wrote:
> Is pin AA == pin 1 or pin 40 ?
>
> When using modern replacement connectors with keys and marked pin 1,
> the translation seems to be pin AA == pin 40.
>
> Did DEC have an accepted mapping between the alphabet and numbers?
>
> -chuck

40pin Berg connectors, the DEC alphabet, and pin numbering

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

Is pin AA == pin 1 or pin 40 ?

When using modern replacement connectors with keys and marked pin 1,
the translation seems to be pin AA == pin 40.

Did DEC have an accepted mapping between the alphabet and numbers?

-chuck

Re: RIP Jerry Pournelle - Firsts

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 1:15 PM, Shoppa, Tim via cctalk
 wrote:
> He seems to have been the first to mention ARPANET in a popular hobbyist-type 
> context like BYTE. (Leading him to get kicked off ARPANET!)

Yes I remember reading something like that too. I would like to know
the story of that.

Much more interesting to read about than that nobody was every really
first at anything etc, etc, etc.

-chuck

QDSS qbus VCB02 8-plane video

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

I found that I have a board set for a VCB02. My research says it will
work in either Q CD or Q Q slots of a qbus backplane. True?

I have no cabinet kit. Is it documented anywhere? The closest I could
find are some hand written notes in the VCB02_PrelimHwRef.pdf on
bitsavers.

Chuck

Re: WTB: RX02 Floppy Disks

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

On Tue, Aug 1, 2017 at 4:53 AM, Ulrich Tagge via cctalk
 wrote:
> I'm interested on RX02 Disks, and would be happy to get some of them, to
> create RT11 installation and diagnostic disks.
> I know there are RX01/02 emulators available, but I would like to use the
> original way and equipment.

Are RX02 disks actually special or will any SSDD 8in floppy work? I
know the drives can't low level format a blank floppy, but since RX01
is IBM 3740 and the RX02 can convert between RX01 and RX02 formats,
isn't any IBM 3740 format disk sufficient for Ulrich needs?

I've studied the RX01 and RX02 drives, but have never seen a real one.

-chuck

Re: Whole IBM System/34 available in unknown condition

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

On Tue, Jul 25, 2017 at 7:53 PM, Ian S. King via cctalk
 wrote:
> "The scrapper wants $800"?  I thought the point of going to scrap was that
> the scrapper makes money on the metals, and pays you for that privilege.
> Have the tables really turned so dramatically?-- Ian

I got $186 a couple of years ago for an S/34 and a twinax line printer
from a scrap metals dealer.

Re: Hershey Fonts now 50 years old

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

On Thu, May 11, 2017 at 6:53 AM, Shoppa, Tim via cctalk
 wrote:
> I grew up with X-Y scope displays, their associated electrostatic printers, 
> and Calcomp pen plotters. To draw letters and symbols on these, we used 
> Fortran libraries driven by data tables to make "Hershey Characters".
>
>
> This year, the Hershey Font system and libraries turn 50 years old: 
> https://books.google.com/books/about/Calligraphy_for_computers.html?id=qFFCIAAJ
>

Interesting to see the history of these fonts. To my eye, nothing else
looks quite correct on a mechanical CAD drawing.

> Tim N3QE

Does anyone else recognize Font 6, Complex Roman in older Japanese
technical documentation. The 2 and 7 are distinctive are particularly
distinctive.

-chuck

Re: Vaxstation 3100 of odd sort on epay

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 10:55 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk
 wrote:
> A VT1300 is a VAXstation 3100 M30 KA42-A CPU in a BA42-A box but
> without the SCSI interface and internal hard disk shelf mounting
> hardware. It might also have different firmware than a standard VS3100
> M30. It is meant to net boot the X Window System server software. I
> have a VT1300 (and a couple of VXT2000) that I haven't powered on in a
> while.

Is the software for this still around someplace? I had it at one time,
but didn't have a monitor, keyboard or mouse. Now I have everything
but the software.

-chuck

Re: Looking for PDP-8 G603 "Memory Selector Matrix" boards (or dec T-2052 transformers)

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

Do we know who made the transformers originally? I maintain some old
industrial hardware designs that used pulse transformers from the
mid-60's and I may still have catalogs and/or data sheets.

-chuck


On Thu, Apr 13, 2017 at 7:01 PM, Pete Lancashire via cctalk
 wrote:
> Using a t-2052 build up a test fixture, a pulse generator and a
> oscilloscope and if have access to one a high bandwidth current probe. Use
> the 2052s you have, record the curves etc and then make up some test
> transformers.
>
> -Pete component engineer in a former life.
>
> On Apr 13, 2017 3:36 PM, "Vincent Slyngstad via cctalk" <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
>> I realize it's a long shot, but does anyone have:
>>>
>>
>> - Any spare T-2052s (or know of a source)
>>> - Any idea what the T-2052 *was* so I can try to replace them.  I haven't
>>> found much detail as of yet.
>>>
>>
>> Good news on this front!
>>
>> I had previously obtained a data sheet for the T2037, a similar
>> transformer.
>>
>> I extracted 4 each T2037 and T2052 from a broken G228, and today I was
>> able to get measurements off of them:
>>
>> T2037:
>> A: 230uH, 170 mohm primary, 42.9uH 100 mohm secondary
>> B: 220/170, 41.6/100
>> C: 232/170, 43.8/60
>> D: 231/170, 43/80
>>
>> These are consistent with 16 turns and 7 turns of #33 wire, wound on an
>> FT37-77 toroid per the instructions on the data sheet, and also with the
>> 220 uH /43 uH 20% specs that appear there.
>>
>> Here are the T2052 measurements:
>> A: 597/320, 597/320
>> B: 530/270, 530/270
>> C: 34/1040, 24/680
>> D: 551/280, 551/280
>>
>> Ignoring "C", which is quite likely broken in some way, these are
>> consistent with a 25 turn 1:1 transformer.  I'm not sure what they are
>> wound with, as #33 wire should give a lower DC resistance.
>> (#34 is closer.  It's also possible that they changed cores, but I suspect
>> that they are also wound on FT37-77 cores.)
>>
>> It's possible that a fairly standard modern 1:1 pulse transformer could be
>> substituted.  The 78615/2JC, for instance is 500uH, 1:1 if you ignore the
>> center tap pins.
>>
>>Vince
>>

Silent 700 thermal paper

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

How long does it last?

I have two Silent 700 terminals that have not been used since the
mid-80's and a box of thermal paper. Is the thermal paper any good or
should I get some more before I try to play with the terminals.

Is paper that wide available new and not NOS? I bought some TTY paper
and it was NOS and so it is just about to disintegrate before I use
it.

-chuck

C, STL, primitive languages that live on and on ... Re: Does anyone here know Siemens STL?

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

There are a lot of smart people here with wide ranging experiences, so
I like to ask questions from time to time that get more to philosophy.
So "If C is so evil why is it so successful" was one of those
questions.

The answer I see is that it is the path of least resistance to the
most successful outcome in the time horizon of the effort.

Or, it gets the job done.

Personally, I am stuck in the machine control world where things like
symbolic names and type checking are sometimes non-existant. And I
wonder why.

SIL-3 and PLe with stone knives and bearskins.

On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 1:48 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk
<cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> On 04/11/2017 07:03 PM, Charles Dickman via cctalk wrote:
>> The Balkanized nature of programming is interesting.

> You might find more fertile ground plowing the plctalk.net forum when
> your questions relate to the STL/SCL/FBD/LAD/CSF area.

I am familiar with STL (and some of the others). My question was not
for help. I was trying to present a contrast between the nit-picking
the list was doing about C and that fact that a huge amount of mission
critical programming is done in languages that are essentially machine
code.

It was a ham fisted attempt. Don't post after too many high ABV IPA's.

> FWIW, "STL"  in Siemens-talk is an acronym for "Statement List".  Why it
> isn't "SL" is anyone's guess.

Probably for the same reason that PZD is process data.

> --Chuck

-chuck

Re: Does anyone here know Siemens STL?

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 10:32 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk
 wrote:

> I don't think that you're being quite fair.  There are boatloads of
> specialized application programming languages--I rarely pay attention to
> any of them, figuring that after your first dozen or so, it's easy
> enough to add another one.

True, I went a bit overboard.

The puzzling (and frustrating) thing about these industrial control
languages is how primitive they are. There is lots of talk about IIoT
and Industry 4.0, but at the bottom much of it is essentially handed
written machine code.

Re: Does anyone here know Siemens STL?

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

The Balkanized nature of programming is interesting.

I make a comment about C and get a flurry of responses, but ask a
question about a programming language that is also very common for
machine control and get no response at all. Not even a recognition of
its existence.

Siemens STL ist a programming language for machine controllers. It is
oriented towards Boolean operations and extended for integer and real
data types. Symbolic addressing is almost completely absent.

On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 9:19 PM, Charles Dickman <c...@chdickman.com> wrote:
> Does anyone here even know what Siemens STL is?
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 9:00 PM, Charles Dickman <c...@chdickman.com> wrote:
>>

Re: Does anyone here know Siemens STL?

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

Does anyone here even know what Siemens STL is?


On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 9:00 PM, Charles Dickman <c...@chdickman.com> wrote:
>

Does anyone here know Siemens STL?

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

If C is so evil why is it so successful?

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

Re: DEC PDP-14 Programmable Controller simulator

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

On Tue, Apr 4, 2017 at 8:35 PM, Paul Koning <paulkon...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> On Apr 4, 2017, at 8:21 PM, Charles Dickman via cctalk 
>> <cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>
>> ...
>> In the course of research, I saw that there was an option to replace
>> the braided core ROM that was standard,  ...
>
> Charles,
>
> I've been studying core ROM for a while now, and there doesn't seem to be a 
> whole lot of information.  One interesting tidbit is that it appears -- but 
> it's hard to confirm completely -- that it was invented by Ken Olsen (while 
> at MIT Lincoln Labs).
>
> Do you have pointers to the PDP-14 rope memory documentation?

http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp14/DEC-14-HGZB-D_PDP-14_Maint_Man_1972.pdf

Forgive me if I have used "braided core ROM" incorrectly, but how I
understand the PDP-14 ROM, it was a network of wires threaded
(braided) through ferrite pulse transformer cores in a way such that
it was possible to address and read data. The current sources and
sense amplifiers were similar to that used with core memory.

>From what I can gather, never having seen one, the cores in the PDP-14
were actually quite large and fragile. There is information in the
field service handbook (Bitsavers) that indicates that a ROM could be
destroyed when the board was pulled from the chassis and there was a
manufacturer change made to prevent the problem.

-chuck

DEC PDP-14 Programmable Controller simulator

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

I have written a PDP-14 simulator using the simh framework. Paired
with a PDP-8 simulator as a front end it passes all the DEC
diagnostics. A pointless effort, perhaps, because there isn't much
that can be done with it without connecting it to something to
control.

In the course of research, I saw that there was an option to replace
the braided core ROM that was standard, with a R/W core memory. It
used a 4k memory module from the PDP-11 (MM11-E) with a special
interface module in the PDP-14. I can find no documentation for the
interface other than the wire-wrap list for the slot in the PDP-14
that it went into. From the signals available I have not been able to
reverse engineer the instructions used to write the core or any detail
really on how it might have been used.

The option was MM14-A consisting of an interface (M7407), memory
(MM11-E), chassis, and power supply.

If anybody is still reading, I would be very interested in ANY
information about it.

-chuck

Looking for a toggle switch

[Charles Dickman]

I need to replace the toggle switch on the M848 power fail and restart
board for a pdp8/e.

It is a singer controls corp T8001 as best I can read on it. A month
or so ago I search and found an exact replacement, but Google is now
failing me and I can't find it back.

Anybody know who bought Singers switch product line?

Re: New batch of pdp8 OMNIBUS to USB interface! Please Read and react!

[Charles Dickman]

Philipp,

On Fri, Feb 17, 2017 at 11:01 AM, Philipp Hachtmann  wrote:
> On 02/17/2017 01:02 AM, Jay Jaeger wrote:

>> In short, ways that folks could take your basic board and make it
>> possible to do other things with it could increase the value of the
>> board enormously.

I tend to agree with Jay here. It would be great to have a way of
expanding the board. From your standpoint, the advantage might be
larger volumes. I was ready to order and then thought about what I
would do with it. I have a high speed serial interface (RX8E) and that
works for me. What I would like to have is a way to experiment with
some other peripherals that I will never have and see how to
virtualize them in an FPGA or CPLD.

> Probably. But I want to create/use/provide a simple tool that does exactly
> one thing perfectly.

Of course that is your prerogative. I respect that this is real and
not some paper design that gets discussed forever and comes to
nothing.

I also see all that board area with nothing on it and think why not
populate it with a layout for some other things.

What I am wishing for are Omnibus and Unibus adapters to an FPGA.

> Kind regards
>
> Philipp

Regards,

-chuck
http://www.chdickman.com/

Re: RL02 version of UNIX6?

[Charles Dickman]

On Fri, Feb 3, 2017 at 11:20 AM, william degnan  wrote:
> I am
> familiar with the database of tests online that has many but no KE11-E
> M7238 EIS Diagnostics...Sorry to have to ask, I checked what places I know
> of, WWW search etc.   Can anyone suggest the name of the test so I can run
> it?
>
Its actually a hand full of tests, one for each instruction.

http://www.chdickman.com/pdp11/Notes/my_diagnostics.html

> Again, thanks for your help and encouragement.
>
> Bill

-chuck

Re: DECUS TECO for OS/8

[Charles Dickman]

On Thu, Jan 26, 2017 at 10:03 PM, Rick Murphy <r...@rickmurphy.net> wrote:
> On 1/26/2017 9:33 PM, Charles Dickman wrote:
>>
>> I am trying to build the DECUS TECO with VT support for OS/8.
>>
>> TECO came from ibiblio and the assembler listing says it is OS/8 TECO
>> VERSION 7. I am using MACREL-V1B. It all assembles without error, but
>> the linker fails with a NO ROOM message.
>>
>> I can't find any information on what NO ROOM means from the MACREL
>> documentation.
>>
>> This is using SIMH PDP8 with 32k words.
>>
>> I also found MACREL V2 source, but it in in MACREL, but I have not
>> tried to bootstrap it using V1.
>>
>> I was hoping to make source editing just a little bit easier.
>>
>> -chuck
>>
> What are you trying to do with TECO?

I would like a bit easier way to edit and EDIT and was hoping the VT support
made the learning curve less steep. The sources say VT100 and VT52,
and if am thinking that means VT52 emulation on a VT100.

> I have a OS/8 RK05 image with MACREL and the TECO source that builds
> correctly. Or, did at some point.
>
> LINKing that uses the following:
>
> .LINK TECO<TECO,TECINI,TECO12,TECOVT,TECTBL$
> *TECNUM,TECERR,TECOVX,TECOVQ,TECOVF,TECOVI,TECDEF,TECSRH$

The version I have was seems to has more files in the link list.

>
> Seems likely that the NO ROOM error is coming from the linker.
>
> My version of the TECO code has been edited to allow ANSI terminals vice
> VT52, which may be what you're trying to get to. Want a copy of the disk
> image?

Oh yes.

> -Rick
>
>

DECUS TECO for OS/8

[Charles Dickman]

I am trying to build the DECUS TECO with VT support for OS/8.

TECO came from ibiblio and the assembler listing says it is OS/8 TECO
VERSION 7. I am using MACREL-V1B. It all assembles without error, but
the linker fails with a NO ROOM message.

I can't find any information on what NO ROOM means from the MACREL
documentation.

This is using SIMH PDP8 with 32k words.

I also found MACREL V2 source, but it in in MACREL, but I have not
tried to bootstrap it using V1.

I was hoping to make source editing just a little bit easier.

-chuck

Re: LC8-P (M8365) PDP8 printer interface schematics

[Charles Dickman]

On Thu, Jan 19, 2017 at 1:18 PM, Marc Howard  wrote:
> Speaking of the LA-180 has anyone noticed the note in the PDP8A manual:
>
> "The General-Purpose Parallel I/O on the D etch revision
> of the M8316 module can be used as an interface for the
> LA 180. Data to the LA I80 must be supplied in com-
> plemented form. The IOTs are different from the LA8
> interface designed for the LA 180. A BC80-A cable, avail-
> able from DIGITAL, must be used to connect the General-
> Purpose Parallel I/O to the LA 180.
>
> Does OS8 know how to handle this way of interfacing a printer?

LPSV.PA has a compile time switch for LA180 and it includes a
complement before and after the character is written to the printer
buffer. I believe that some versions of SET have the capability of
modifying LPSV.BN to work with the LA180 at runtime. It is also
possible to use SET to modify the instructions directly.

Interestingly, the LPSV handler only contains two printer IOTs: one to
write the character and one to check the printer flag.

-chuck

Stinky resistors was Re: Stinky screwdrivers

[Charles Dickman]

On Mon, Jan 9, 2017 at 3:30 PM, Ethan Dicks  wrote:
> I have some Xcelite tools from the early 1980s.  They have been stinky
> for over 30 years.

Same experience. I have some in a drawer on my work work-bench that
were purchased in the early 80s and they still smell.

>   Definitely a butyrate stink (I used to
> run chemistry shows at The Center of Science and Industry - one was on
> Esters... we mixed a variety of alcohols with a variety of fatty acids
> and let the audience smell the results... it was all fun and games
> until I spilled 200ml of Butyric Acid on myself...  :-P  )

In high school chemistry we did some experiments with that stuff. I
think the teacher just liked to stink up the school every year.

Now I also have a bunch of drawers filled with Allen-Bradley carbon
composition resistors from around 1970. All the leads have a whitish
film on them that has a peculiar odor. They've been in the electrical
lab at work, in an office environment since that time. I've always
been a little curious about what caused it.

-chuck

Re: LC8-P (M8365) PDP8 printer interface schematics

[Charles Dickman]

On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 1:37 PM, Ethan Dicks <ethan.di...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 1:03 PM, Charles Dickman <c...@chdickman.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 10:15 AM, Mattis Lind <mattisl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Is this the printset you are looking for?
>>>
>>> https://imgur.com/a/4uDS4

>
> Looks like it's 7 bits (D5-D11 -> P01-P07).

I noticed that when looking at the board last night. The OS/8 printer
handlers mask to 7 bits also. But its ASCII right, so that all you
should ever need.

-chuck

Re: LC8-P (M8365) PDP8 printer interface schematics

[Charles Dickman]

On Thu, Jan 5, 2017 at 10:15 AM, Mattis Lind  wrote:
> Is this the printset you are looking for?
>
> https://imgur.com/a/4uDS4
>
> https://imgur.com/a/mDvhD
>
> Sorry for top-posting. I hope the links are ok. Posting from the phone...
>

Yes! That looks like it.

Thanks,

-chuck

Re: LC8-P (M8365) PDP8 printer interface schematics

[Charles Dickman]

On Wed, Jan 4, 2017 at 7:08 AM, Christian Corti
<c...@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> wrote:
> On Tue, 3 Jan 2017, Ethan Dicks wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 3, 2017 at 8:04 PM, Charles Dickman <c...@chdickman.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I am looking for schematics or any documentation for the LA180
>>> interface for the PDP8/e. A scan would be great. I want to see if I
>>> can use it to interface to a Centronics interface printer.
>>
>>
>> I don't have the schematics (I do have an LC8-P somewhere), but I
>> remember back in the day, people wanted to go the other way - feed a
>> PC printer w/Centronics interface from a DEC interface.
>
>
> It's not the other way, it's the same way ;-) (attatching a Centronics/PC
> printer to a DEC interface)

Yes, I want to connected an OKIDATA Microline82A to the PDP8/e.

Looking at the LA180 manual's description of the LC8-P interface, it
is pretty close to Centronics. I expect it is more than just a cable,
though, because there is also an OMNIBUS Centronics printer interface
board (LS8-E). That schematic is on bitsavers.

I also have an LE8-E (M841), but that only provides 7 data bits to the printer.

-chuck

LC8-P (M8365) PDP8 printer interface schematics

[Charles Dickman]

I am looking for schematics or any documentation for the LA180
interface for the PDP8/e. A scan would be great. I want to see if I
can use it to interface to a Centronics interface printer.

-chuck

Re: DEC color standards was: Re: Banner Panels

[Charles Dickman]

On Mon, Jan 2, 2017 at 2:57 PM, Fred Cisin  wrote:
>> Then again, there are plenty of Pantone colors that have no RGB
>> equivalent...
>
>
> For printing banner panels, would CMYK be a better fit than sRGB?
> Are there no records of what DEC specified to their sub-contractors?

My motivation was for no other reason than to see what the colors
looked like on a web page.

The page shows what DEC used and that was Munsell and/or Ostwald
notation along with one Pantone and a couple paint manufacturers and
colors. That is all documented in DEC Std092. There are many other
color part numbers documented there, but most are references to OEM
customer colors.

Re: DEC color standards was: Re: Banner Panels

[Charles Dickman]

On Mon, Jan 2, 2017 at 10:48 AM, Noel Chiappa  wrote:
> > From: Pete Lancashire
>
> > To convert from Muncell to RGB
>
> Interesting. For one colour (D.C. Blue), listed on Charles' page as Munsell
> 5PB 3/10, that page gives it as 'outside sRGB gamut', whereas the page you
> list gives it as sRGB [0,72,145].

Any translation to sRGB with a 0 or 255, is potentially suspect.

Re: DEC color standards was: Re: Banner Panels

[Charles Dickman]

On Sat, Dec 31, 2016 at 12:21 AM,   wrote:
> I wonder if there is a PANTONE  color  chat assignment  that DEC
> ever listed?  That would allow  you to nail it dead on.

Of course it would, but the DEC STD 092 available is not specified in PANTONE,
If a later version of the standard used PANTONE then it would be done
because PANTONE is the defacto reference today.

Re: DEC color standards was: Re: Banner Panels

[Charles Dickman]

On Fri, Dec 30, 2016 at 11:14 PM, william degnan  wrote:
> You can add the industrial/11 blue and red to your color page

That's another problem I think, there isn't any documentation to say
what colors a particular scheme used. I think the PDP8/e is amber and
terra cotta, but that isn't documented as far as I know.

Your Industrial-11 was probably in Bicentennial colors. It sure looks
like American Red, White and Blue to me.

-chuck

Re: OS/8 FORTRAN IV

[Charles Dickman]

I tied DEV SEL L for my homebrew LPT to +5 and now F4 runs.

I am curious if the EAE is used with F4. The Language Manual says it
is, but it is only mentioned in one place. There is nothing else to
select using it or not using it. I looked at the sources for various
parts of F4 and can't see that any of the EAE instructions are used in
it although I also don't know that I have source for the floating
point library itself.

-chuck

DEC color standards was: Re: Banner Panels

[Charles Dickman]

Rod,

On Thu, Dec 29, 2016 at 8:04 PM, Rod Smallwood
 wrote:
> Hi Guys
>
> I have had a quick word with the girls down at the silk screen
> shop.

A couple of years ago I tried to translate the DEC color standards to
RGB based on the colors in the standards on bitsavers. Here is what I
came up with:

http://www.chdickman.com/pdp8/DECcolors/

I think I posted this already.

How have you been doing your color matching? Have you published a
color list for the panels you have made? I am thinking about color
matching for switch handles for example that are in the same colors.
Some enduring standard translation for the colors would be great to
have available in the future.

I never imagined how slippery color was until I tried to do the color
matching from the DEC standards. I had to meet Munsell, Ostwald and
the CHM (Color Harmony Manual, not the Computer History Museum),
before I was done. And Pantone seems to be the Microsoft of color.

-chuck

Re: OS/8 FORTRAN IV

[Charles Dickman]

On Thu, Dec 29, 2016 at 6:24 AM, Rick Murphy  wrote:

> You could verify by writing a simple toggle-in that does the skip to test:
> 0200/ 6661  - skip on the flag
> 0201/ 7402 - halt if it doesn't skip
> 0202/ 6662 - clear the flag
> 0203/ 6661 - did that clear it?
> 0204/ 7402 - yes
> 0205/ 7402 - no

I single stepped through that section of FRTS and 6661 definitely skips.

> The FRTS does the following:
> LPTEST, LSF
> IFNZRO LPTEST-415 
> JMP NOTLPT
> LPTLCF, LCF /CLEAR FLAG
> TAD I   LPGET
> SNA CLA /CHECK FOR SPURIOUS INTERRUPT
> JMPDIS, JMP DISMIS  /GO AWAY IF SO
>
> So, it's skipping, then clearing the flag. So, if there was real hardware,
> this would only trigger once.
> Try the above on a minimal system, then add boards until the problem comes
> back.

I did that last night, but it didn't go away,

Duh! I think I figured it out. There IS an LPT interface. I have a
32kW memory that I build up many years ago and I included a printer
port on it. I haven't used it in eons and I forgot it was even there.
I will have to figure out how to disable it. I don't remember if it
did interrupts or not. There is also a PIO interface for IDE disks on
there.

> -Rick

-chuck

OS/8 FORTRAN IV

[Charles Dickman]

What happens when a PDP8/e executes an IOT to a non-existent device?
My PDP8/e is skipping when it executes a printer flag test for a
device that is not present.

I tried the following FORTRAN IV program with OS/8 F4 on simh and it
worked fine.

C HELLO WORLD PROGRAM IN FORTRAN IV
C
  WRITE(4,100)
100   FORMAT(" HELLOW WORLD!")
  END

even with hello spelled wrong.

When I tried it on real hardware it just hung.

It looks like it is stuck in an interrupt loop.

F4 uses interrupts for IO and has its own internal handlers. From the
looks of it, there is an interrupt and it is not getting acknowledged.
When the ISR returns, the interrupt is still there and it just loops.

This is a PDP8/e and the INT BUS lamp is ON. I believe this means that
the interrupt request line on the bus is true. I trace the program and
it enters the ISR and checks a few flags. It finds the line printer
char done flag set and then determines that it was spurious and
returns, ignoring any other device that might be interrupting.

I don't have any printer devices installed, so it is strange that is
skips on the printer char done flag. When there is no device, what
does the IOT do? I would expect a NOP with maybe AC corruption, but
not a skip.

In the ISR, the printer is checked before the TTY and I think the
interrupt is from the TTY.

-chuck

Re: PDP-8 OS/8 versions

[Charles Dickman]

I am aware of some of that. I was actually comparing using the
information in the combined kit release notes. It has information
about how to determine the version of the included programs. Some have
a command to do it, some have an address that needs to be examined
with ODT.

With OS/8, the notion of a config files changes. You make changes and
save them in the binary of the command, so a command binary can
change. You learn this after doing a build with R BUILD and then
realizing that you can't save your changes. I haven't figured out if
there is a way to load a system head into BUILD.

-chuck



On Fri, Dec 9, 2016 at 7:13 PM, Vincent Slyngstad
<v.slyngs...@frontier.com> wrote:
> From: Charles Dickman: Friday, December 09, 2016 3:59 PM
>>
>> I have some DECtapes that are V3D and I have found some RX01 images
>> from the V3D Combined Kit. The programs that are common to both are
>> different versions, so V3D changed over time.
>
>
> I know that .SV format saves some cruft along with the binary, so .SV files
> can compare different even though they are effectively the same.
> (I have some Perl code somewhere that will diff them in a way that helps
> identify this problem.  What happens is that the differences are all in the
> "tails" where .BN format provides granularity not available in .SV format.)
>
> It is also possible to save a program after it's been run a few times, which
> saves different values for the return addresses at the top of the
> subroutines and such.
>
>Vince

PDP-8 OS/8 versions

[Charles Dickman]

Has anyone ever described the OS/8 version history?

I have some DECtapes that are V3D and I have found some RX01 images
from the V3D Combined Kit. The programs that are common to both are
different versions, so V3D changed over time.

Then there were the DECmates and there were changes made to support
them. I see V4 referenced.

There are also some sources online, but it isn't clear how they
correspond to the usable device images.

I have been looking at these online resources mostly, but I have found others.

http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-8
http://www.pdp8.net/

Are there other better resources? Are there source distributions in
the original state for example?

>From what I have seen, the combined kit has the best support for the
PDP-8/e and its devices. That's the hardware I have and so that is
what I am concentrating on.

Hoping to trigger some conversation.

-chuck

Re: Homebrew QBus designs - was Re: VAX 4000-100 QBUS cables

[Charles Dickman]

On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 12:54 PM, Toby Thain  wrote:
> On 2016-11-29 12:22 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>>
>> > From: Peter Coghlan
>>
>> > Can anyone suggest an existing, simple QBUS device that I could
>> study
>> > the documentation of to figure out what a basic QBUS device needs to
>> > have and to give me some ideas on how to implement one?
>>
>> Depends. Do you want to be able to do interrupts? Do you want to be able
>> to
>> do DMA? Each is a significant increment in complexity.
>>
>> Later DEC QBUS devices may not be the best things to look at, since they
>> tend
>> to use special DEC QBUS control chips (I'm _not_ talking about bus
>> transceiver chips here) which are of course no longer available.

The DEC Chipkit documentation has the internal schematics for the
standard DEC interface chips and is very much worth a read.

Re: Interested in UNIVAC 9000 Series (and IBM 360)

[Charles Dickman]

On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 6:15 PM, Jon Elson  wrote:

> OH, yeah!  Besides the limited instruction set, short registers only half
> populated, etc., did you know that the 360/20 did not have an adder?

This made me curious about how primitive it was, but the FE docs on
bitsavers show a 16bit ALU that can do ADD, AND, OR and XOR and maybe
some logic to help with BCD math.

Re: Paper tape carriers and paper tape

[Charles Dickman]

And where can I get new fan-fold paper tape to put in the trays?


On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 2:55 PM, Al Kossow  wrote:
> There has to be a better solution than either the vaccum or all-plex cases 
> for paper tape. Neither one is very good for
> anything other than what the slots were set up for (like 1") Short ones get 
> bunched together in a slot, and long ones
> bridge slots. Either way, you end up not being able to see the labels.
>
>> but creating a replica of the blue tape trays with
>> the clear overlay that one could sell for a few bucks with some random 
>> fanfold copies of DEC or other diagnostics would
>> be nice.
>>
>

Unibus controller for MFM disks

[Charles Dickman]

I don't know that Digital ever had a Unibus disk controller for ST412
interface disks, but were there any third party controllers? I'm in
need of disk controllers for PDP-11/40 and think that might be an
option given the availability of reliable MFM disk emulators.

-chuck

Re: Highway interface [warning contains an ebay ref], but is an old VMS network interface

[Charles Dickman]

On Wed, Oct 12, 2016 at 8:18 AM, jim stephens  wrote:

> I found an Allen Bradley box which uses this, not sure if it needs a hub,
> but points to the use of the hardware.
>
> Allen-Bradley-Data-Highway-Communication-Interface-1770-KF2-Ser-B-Rev-D-/
>
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/391591793086
>
>

Data Highway brings back memories that aren't that old really. Its an
industrial communications network produced by Allen Bradley. I've used
it mostly for what would be called a machine cell: HMI connected to a
machine controller and then some ancillary equipment. It was 156k bps
(there were other speeds too depending on cable length), token
passing, multi-drop network over shielded twisted pair. The 1770-KF2
is sort of AUI for Data Highway. It allowed a computer or PLC with a
serial port to communicate on the network.

I remember the Pyramid Integrator advertisements that include VAX
connections. PLC programming software was offered for VMS. That was
all too high end for the industries we were involved in. We used
Compaq Portable 3 with 1784-KT cards in the 3 slot ISA box that
plugged on the back.

Data Highway was still reasonably current with Rockwell until ethernet
became dirt cheap and ubiquitous.

-chuck