Re: G4 cube (was Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...)

[Chris Hanson]

On Sep 13, 2016, at 12:43 PM, Chuck Guzis  wrote:
> 
> On 09/13/2016 12:15 PM, Brendan Shanks wrote:
> 
>> There was SNAps:
> 
> And it only took them until 1993!

Apple had a package available with SNA support in the late 1980s, along with 
the NuBus token ring card. I think there was also a DECnet package. And MacTCP 
was available early on, too.

> While it happened, it goes to my point that non-Apple connectivity has
> always gotten short shrift.


This is pretty much a myth. It was actually not very long after Jobs’ ouster 
that Apple started to work on expandable Macs, integration with other systems, 
etc.

  -- Chris

More Weird Stuff

[Chris Hanson]

There were a couple more MIPS workstations (with MIPS property tags) at Weird 
Stuff a couple days ago. Two 3xxx-series and an R/12.

Also a bunch of DEC stuff including a VT240 base and several keyboards.

  -- Chris

Sent from my iPhone

Re: ka... ching!

[Chris Hanson]

On Oct 1, 2016, at 1:57 PM, "j...@cimmeri.com"  wrote:

> From where I sit, the big prices seem mostly centered around Apple 1's and 
> this Twiggy Lisa.  Have any other computers have gone astronomical like these?

Yes, some old workstation and mini hardware. Old Macs have also seen a 
significant rise in prices over the past 10 years.

  -- Chris

Re: mc68010+mc68451 Unix source?

[Chris Hanson]

On Oct 4, 2016, at 1:44 PM, Ethan Dicks  wrote:
> 
> So... short form - I'd love to read over some 68K UNIX code to see
> what it would take to make it run on orphan hardware from 30 years
> ago.

If that’s your goal, I think NetBSD will run on 68000 & 68010 hardware with an 
MMU (Sun or 68451).

  -- Chris

Re: Picked up Commodore Amiga 2000

[Chris Hanson]

On Oct 4, 2016, at 7:13 PM, devin davison  wrote:
> 
> It looks as if PC compatibility
> boards can be added to the machine,  boards with a 286, 386, or 486 and
> some memory on a board, capable of running  MS DOS. IF i were to install
> such a board, what kind of graphics capability would the dos side of things
> have?

Frankly, um, who cares?

It’s an Amiga. You can install Amiga boards (including 
>) and run Amiga software and games 
on it. Way different than PC clones and honestly, way better, especially for 
the period.

  -- Chris

Re: Unexpected Apple Lisa display - this is what it is

[Chris Hanson]

A Macintosh XL without the square-pixels modification! (The Lisa had a 
non-square aspect ratio.)

Is the system actually badged as a Macintosh XL anywhere?

  -- Chris

> On Oct 4, 2016, at 7:25 PM, steven stengel  wrote:
> 
> This Lisa is a MacXL. 
> 
> It first asks where to boot from:http://oldcomputers.net/temp/lisa3.jpg
> 
> If hard drive is selected, then happy Mac:
> http://oldcomputers.net/temp/lisa4.jpg
> 
> Then the weird intermediate screen:
> http://oldcomputers.net/temp/lisa.jpg
> 
> You get a Mac if you click on FINDER:
> http://oldcomputers.net/temp/lisa5.jpg
> 
> Poor quality pics, I know.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  Original message 
>> From: steven stengel 
> 
>> 
>> What is this unusual Apple Lisa display - some sort of diagnostics?
>> 
>> http://oldcomputers.net/temp/lisa.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

Re: SCSI Tape Emulator

[Chris Hanson]

On Oct 10, 2016, at 6:11 PM, Josh Dersch  wrote:
> 
>> On 10/10/16 5:40 PM, Charles Anthony wrote:
>> 
>> On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 4:49 PM, Rich Alderson <
>> ri...@livingcomputermuseum.org> wrote:
>> 
>>> From: Charles Anthony
>>> Sent: Monday, October 10, 2016 12:53 PM
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Correction:  .tap format uses 4 byte counters, in little-endian order.
>>> Order is not relevant for the EOF tape marks, of course, since they're
>>> 4 bytes of 0.
>>> 
>>> 
>> Stupid memory of mine. Sigh.  Anyway, IIUC, the SCSI2SD is like $70; the
>> firmware appears to be closed, but I wonder if an NDA with them would allow
>> adding tape emulation capability to their code base? (Given that I have no
>> knowledge of how SCSI2D works inside, I may be vastly underestimating the
>> scope of the project.)
>> 
>> -- Charles
>> 
> 
> The SCSI2SD firmware (and hardware) are open source, see the "Files" section 
> of the scsi2sd site for the git repo information.
> 
> Additionally, the guy behind the project is very receptive to feature 
> requests and bug reports...

I was going to point this out as well.

My only misgiving would be whether SCSI2SD prior to v6 is powerful or fast 
enough for any particular use, not whether sufficient resources are available 
to hack it.

  -- Chris
  -- who still needs a JTAG cable to reprogram the boot loader on his bricked 
SCSI2SD

Re: Old versions of Emacs

[Chris Hanson]

Do you have any of the “GNU” emacs versions that were derived from 
Unipress/Gosling emacs, prior to the clean-room rewrite of the Gosmacs code? 
(Were those ever widely distributed?)

  — Chris

Re: Mac SE NVRAM battery removal

[Chris Hanson]

There's nothing stored in the Parameter RAM that won't be restored to a default 
state by the OS on boot.

Macs generally won't boot without a PRAM battery though, so if you're storing 
your systems without one, you'll need to replace the battery before use.

You might want to run some wire for a socket out of the case if you're going to 
do that regularly, since it can be a pain to get in there on many models―and 
not just on compact Macs, either, though they're obviously tough.

  -- Chris

Sent from my iPad

> On Nov 6, 2016, at 2:49 PM, Jules Richardson  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> So I'm working my way (more slowly than I probably should be) through my 
> systems, ditching ancient on-board batteries before they leak...
> 
> In the case of the Mac SE's, are there any critical settings which I should 
> make a note of before removing the on-board battery? Should I expect any 
> issues trying to run the machines without? (I'm not inclined to replace 
> batteries unless I have to, just so I don't have to worry about replacement 
> again in x years time)
> 
> cheers
> 
> Jules
> 

NCD Explora Pro (was Re: NCD19 / Xncd19)

[Chris Hanson]

Similarly, I’m trying to resurrect an NCD Explora Pro, and haven’t found much 
more than broken links. It’s one of their “plug a keyboard, mouse, and monitor 
into the box” X terminals.

Plugging in a keyboard, mouse, VGA panel, and Ethernet, I get a steady green 
light at startup and “donk donk” noise, then nothing, no sync on the panel. I 
haven’t tried its serial port yet to see if its boot ROM console was perhaps 
rerouted there, and I haven’t found documentation on how to do any sort of 
“factory reset” of the device.

I have a Raspberry Pi 3 with a USB Ethernet dongle that it’s plugged into, but 
I can’t remember how to use ARP on an isolated network to find the IP address 
of the other system. If anyone has any pointers, I’d definitely appreciate them.

Same for the software to actually operate it as an X terminal.

  -- Chris

Re: Macintosh Portable

[Chris Hanson]

On Nov 26, 2016, at 1:52 AM, drlegendre .  wrote:
> 
> You're correct about the drive connector, it's one of those maddening
> proprietary things that Apple was and still is prone to doing. If I recall,
> the drive itself uses the standard SCSI interface, but the stock drive has
> a permanently attached cable with its own pinout. And I think the drive
> cable carries both data and power.

Not really proprietary, it was before tiny portable SCSI drives were really 
standardized, and Apple published everything so third parties could create 
compatible hardware.

It’s just a 34-pin connector carrying both SCSI signal and power. Details are 
on page 5-31 (Chapter 5: Hardware) of the Macintosh Portable Developer Note, 
Table 5-6: SCSI Internal Connector Pinout. It should be simple to make an 
adapter for a SCSI2SD or equivalent.

  -- Chris

Re: HP1631D Logic Analyzer..Software???

[Chris Hanson]

As someone with an HP 1660cs, I'd love to see it. Do you remember the specific 
architecture it was for?

Also, isn't 1650 software compatible with the 1660? :)

Finally, is there anything I should do with my 1660cs for preservation 
purposes? Image the hard disk, that sort of thing? Or can it be entirely 
reloaded from the OS floppy images still distributed by Keysight?

  -- Chris

Sent from my iPad

> On Dec 14, 2016, at 12:52 PM, Rik Bos  wrote:
> 
> Andrea,
> 
> I've the symbol editor utility for the 1660 series.
> I also have the inverse assembler development software for the 16500 and 1650 
> series.(HP 10391B)
> 
> -Rik
>> -Oorspronkelijk bericht-
>> Van: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] Namens shad
>> Verzonden: woensdag 14 december 2016 19:36
>> Aan: cctalk
>> Onderwerp: Re: HP1631D Logic Analyzer..Software???
>> 
>> hello,
>> somewhere around I should have a floppy with disassembler for HP1660 series.
>> I suppose it is useless for 1630... or not?
>> Should I give a look to find it?
>> 
>> Andrea
> 

Re: HP1631D Logic Analyzer..Software???

[Chris Hanson]

On Dec 14, 2016, at 1:07 AM, Holm Tiffe  wrote:

> As far as I know I do have an HP IEEE488 ISA Board lying around somewhere,
> and I'l ltry to look at the stack of old Motherboards if I can find
> something with a "higher" CPU and ISA Slots to build a Windoze computer
> that can be connected to the 9121D Drive so that I can restore the
> images to disks.

You can interface with HP-IB equipment pretty easily with modern hardware too, 
you can get a GP-IB adapter that uses USB or PCIe and for which a full set of 
driver libraries is available fairly inexpensively.

  -- Chris

Macintosh Plus: 31 years old this coming Monday

[Chris Hanson]

I met up with some friends at a coffee shop to get some data off a hard drive 
that was given to one of them with an old Mac Plus. During the course of this, 
we looked some things up, and learned that the Mac Plus was released on January 
16, 1986: Thirty one years ago, as of this coming Monday.

Maybe I’ll take some time out on Monday to finally fit mine with the 
replacement analog board that I’ve acquired, so I can enjoy that beautiful 
bluish-white phosphor glow once again.

  -- Chris

Re: Macintosh Plus: 31 years old this coming Monday

[Chris Hanson]

On Jan 15, 2017, at 10:56 AM, Jules Richardson  
wrote:
> 
> On 01/14/2017 10:12 PM, Chris Hanson wrote:
>> Maybe I’ll take some time out on Monday to finally fit mine with the
>> replacement analog board that I’ve acquired, so I can enjoy that
>> beautiful bluish-white phosphor glow once again.
> 
> I have a couple - but only one mouse, and no keyboards, which is a bit of a 
> problem :-)
> 
> I think someone had worked out the protocol and scancodes, so there was the 
> possibility of making an interface for a modern keyboard, but there are just 
> far too many other projects in the way first.

If I remember correctly, the protocol is documented in Inside Macintosh Volume 
III. The scan codes are definitely documented somewhere in the original Volumes 
I-III, and again in IV.

(Inside Macintosh Volume IV documented the Mac 512Ke and the Mac Plus; the Plus 
keyboard combined the original keyboard with the numeric keypad.)

  -- Chris

Re: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own?

[Chris Hanson]

On Jan 12, 2017, at 12:12 PM, Leif Johansson  wrote:
> 
> I saved one of the MIT CADR top-of-rack plates (the one with the logo
> and a sticker from the lab on it). Me and peter recently discovered
> he saved the rest of the box. Will probably reunite at some point :-)

Nice! Any media/storage with it too, or just the system itself?

The full software stack for the CADR is available so even if you don’t have 
storage or media, if you could interface something emulating what it expects, 
the system could be brought back to life.

  -- Chris

Re: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own?

[Chris Hanson]

On Jan 12, 2017, at 12:54 PM, Raymond Wiker  wrote:
> 
> I've been following this topic, and suddenly realised… that I don't actually 
> have any particularly rare or unusual items – the nearest I can think of is a 
> Commodore N-60 navigation calculator, but I also have two early Apple IIs.
> 
> If I can mention items that I have owned, the list becomes slightly longer: a 
> PC532, Symbolics MacIvory II and a TI microExplorer.

What happened to the MacIvory II and microExplorer?

  -- Chris

Re: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own?

[Chris Hanson]

A Symbolics XL400 workstation with an 4MW extra memory board and two 780MB ESDI 
disks, for a total of 8MW (48MB) of memory and 1.5GB of storage in 1991.

  -- Chris

Re: What's the rarest or most unusual computer-related item do you own?

[Chris Hanson]

On Jan 16, 2017, at 1:06 PM, Cameron Kaiser  wrote:
> 
>>> If I can mention items that I have owned, the list becomes slightly
>>> longer: a PC532, Symbolics MacIvory II and a TI microExplorer.
>> 
>> What happened to the MacIvory II and microExplorer?
> 
> If we're considering MacIvories in this category, there's one sitting
> next to me (MacIvory III in a IIci host, 8MW RAM, Genera 8.3).

Why wouldn’t we? They’re actually really rare, and quite nice.

Some of us have been looking for a MacIvory — or a microExplorer — for a very 
long time. It requires quite a bit of luck to acquire one.

One thing I’m keenly interested in finding is a way to reload the TI Explorer 
and microExplorer software. I’ve used the Meroko emulator, but only with the 
image of a workstation at WSU running the Explorer 4.1 system. I’d like to load 
a fresh environment on it from the final Explorer system release, if I could 
acquire such a thing.

  -- Chris

Re: [cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5]

[Chris Hanson]

On Jan 31, 2017, at 2:04 PM, Mouse  wrote:
> 
> (Speaking of best practices, you're generating paragraph-length lines;
> you might want to read RFC 3676.)

That’s up to the receiving MUA to deal with, not the sending one.

  -- Chris

Re: [cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5]

[Chris Hanson]

On Jan 31, 2017, at 6:30 PM, Mouse  wrote:
> 
>>> (Speaking of best practices, you're generating paragraph-length
>>> lines; you might want to read RFC 3676.)
>> Thatâ??s up to the receiving MUA to deal with, not the sending one.
> 
> If you think that, you _really_ need to read 3676.

Nope. Just because you refuse to believe in a world beyond the teletype doesn’t 
mean one doesn’t exist. The RFC you cite even admits that; the recommendation 
for 78-character lines is not a MUST in any case.

I’m actually a little surprised you’re citing such a recent RFC, honestly, 
rather than something from the early 1990s.

Also, in case you weren’t aware, just like an Internet-Draft isn’t an RFC, an 
RFC isn’t a standard. This one is a proposed standard, but it’s been one for 
over a decade now, so I wouldn’t hold my breath on it.

  -- Chris
  -- who was a user of the email system where the creators of MIME developed 
their ideas

Re: Logic Analysers

[Chris Hanson]

On Feb 2, 2017, at 10:43 AM, Fritz Mueller  wrote:
> 
> I bought a used 1662 off eBay for cheap, and it has been indispensable for 
> the work I've been doing on a PDP-11.  I think the external clock is often a 
> pretty critical feature in being able to sensibly interpret traces.  
> Sophisticated triggering is also very useful for catching a suspected  
> misbehaving chip in the act.
> 
> I had considered some of the more modern USB options at the time because it 
> seemed they would be convenient, but in the end I opted for a used old-school 
> tool because it had the features I needed at less actual cost.  I have not 
> regretted the decision -- super useful tool!

My HP 1660CS with Ethernet has ensured I’m not even remotely interested in one 
of the USB options, between having 136 channels and way higher bandwidth.

Even one of the models without Ethernet would be worthwhile since they’re 
straightforward to interface with via serial or GPIB.

  -- Chris

Re: LMI Lambda?

[Chris Hanson]

No. :)

I presume you’re working on something related to CADR, LMI Lambda, and TI 
Explorer emulation. Why not do so in the open?

  -- Chris

> On Feb 5, 2017, at 7:16 PM, Daniel Seagraves  wrote:
> 
> Everyone point and laugh; I am ten kinds of stupid.
> 
> Would everyone who isn’t Al pretend you did not see the previous email 
> please? :)
> 
>> On Feb 5, 2017, at 9:09 PM, Daniel Seagraves  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> On Feb 5, 2017, at 2:19 PM, Al Kossow  wrote:
>>> 
>>> pictures and firmware now uploaded to
>>> http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/lmi/
>>> 
>>> does anyone still have schematics for the Lambda? would be nice to archive 
>>> a set for the artifacts in CHM's collection.
>> 
>> Not that we are aware of. It would have saved literally a year in our 
>> development because we wouldn’t have had to work out the paging and GC bits 
>> the hard way.
>> 
>> Do you have any experience dumping the contents of SMD disks? RG has at 
>> least two Lambdas in his garage, but conditions are bad and they have been 
>> exposed to outside air for who knows how long; it will be another several 
>> months before he returns to the east coast. I’m considering a trip out to 
>> see if there’s anything salvageable. Hopefully if nothing else the disk 
>> contents can be read out.
>> 
>> If you can read/write on your disk, we can give you software to run on your 
>> machine(s). It uses 1024-byte sectors.
>> 
> 

Re: LMI Lambda?

[Chris Hanson]

On Feb 9, 2017, at 3:34 AM, Daniel Seagraves  wrote:

> Absent a license from the rightsholder, emulators are illegal. Full stop, end 
> of sentence. Go directly to jail, do not pass go, do not collect $200.

As others have pointed out, this is not the case.

Remember that Sony purchased the rights to the Virtual Game Station emulator 
from Connectix because they lost in court. A reference to the case is on the 
wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connectix_Virtual_Game_Station

> It doesn’t matter if the company hasn’t existed since the late 80s - Someone 
> somewhere owns the IP rights and as soon as they see interest in it they’re 
> going to see potential dollar signs.

As near as I’ve been able to find, without hiring lawyers to do more in-depth 
research, the assets of the former Lisp Machine, Inc. were seized as part of 
the GigaText affair; do a Google search for GigaText Guy Montpetit for some 
details. The IP in this case is likely owned by either the government of 
Canada, Saskatchewan, the United States, or Massachusetts, depending on who did 
the actual seizing, what entity owned the IP at the time, and whether the 
seized assets were ever transferred as a result of the case(s).

Do you have any pointers to the situation being different?

  -- Chris

Re: Wildly hopeful eBay seller

[Chris Hanson]

Here I thought this would be about the newly listed Symbolics 3600 board:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/152451344620 

  -- Chris

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 27, 2017, at 5:14 PM, Noel Chiappa  wrote:
> 
> Now, this person:
> 
>  http://www.ebay.com/itm/182469963119
> 
> really is ... incredibly over-optimistic.
> 
>Noel

Re: Weird c. 1982 Onyx systems 68010-based UNIX minicomputer

[Chris Hanson]

On Apr 18, 2016, at 10:05 PM, Ian Finder  wrote:

> https://www.instagram.com/p/6GLEvutS_e/?taken-by=tr1nitr0n

Are those a 68450 DMAC and 68451 MMU on the board next to the 68010?

  -- Chris

Sony eVilla BeIA (was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from)

[Chris Hanson]

On Apr 19, 2016, at 12:37 PM, Swift Griggs  wrote:
> 
> 2. Sony eVilla BeIA appliance using some kind of (crappy) built-in mail
>   application. 

Were these ever actually shipped? I only recall hearing that they were in 
development.

  -- Chris

Re: Accelerator boards - no future? Bad business?

[Chris Hanson]

Overall I'm personally much more about using the system *as a whole* than using 
it *as it was*.

For example, I have a Mac IIci with maxed-out RAM, some large SCSI disks, 
Ethernet, and an accelerated NuBus video card, all possible at the time. 
(Though 128MB RAM and the 1GB disks would have bankrupt a small nation in 
1989.) I'm not going to plug it into a period monitor though, I just acquired a 
multi sync LCD with which to replace its current late-1990s CRT. Similarly, I 
have a BigMessOWires MacFloppyEmu for most of my real storage needs, which has 
virtually no latency and virtually infinite capacity, so I can spend my time 
with the system using it rather than spend it all booting it and launching 
applications.

Similarly, I pulled the 4GB drive from my SPARCstation 20[1] and put in a pair 
of 167GB 15.5K Cheetahs, so I could run Solaris 8 and NetBSD fast and never 
worry about space. I have an external 411 to put the 4GB drive in, so I can 
still run SunOS, I've put in a SunSwift 100Base-T card to make getting things 
to the system faster, and if I add more storage it'll be with a SCSI2SD or 
equivalent, again so I can use the system rather than wait to use it.

I've even looked a little at ProFile emulation for my Lisa 2/10. I don't even 
know if its current ProFile still works, since all ProFiles are old enough at 
this point that their formatting is decaying, and I've also moved a few times 
in the dozen years since I last booted it. (At least the MacFloppyEmu will also 
work with the Lisa, so I don't need its 3.5in drive to work, or to run Dart on 
my IIci to write 400KB floppies…) And again, to avoid spending all my time with 
it waiting, I've looked a tiny bit at how to replace the two 512KB RAM boards 
with a single board with 2MB, 8MB, or whatever it will take, using some more 
modern hardware.

I want to use the systems as a whole enough not to just live in emulation, but 
I only have a limited amount of time to spend with them, so replacing just a 
few subsystems in ways that make the use of the overall systems smoother seems 
like a reasonable compromise.

  -- Chris

[1] When I first got my SS20 home and booted it, it came up as 
ids-three.smcc.sun.com and said it was starting Cadence license servers. I 
assume it was an identity server for Sun Microcomputer, if anyone knows more 
I'd love to hear about it.

Re: strangest systems I've sent email from

[Chris Hanson]

On Apr 25, 2016, at 7:38 AM, Liam Proven  wrote:
> 
> And you do know what Apple MacOS was originally written in, don't you?

The original Macintosh System Software was almost entirely M68000 assembly 
language.

There were a couple parts of the original System Software that were written in 
Pascal, but by and large the space constraints of the 64KB ROMs and the 400KB 
floppy and the desire to eke every last cycle of performance out of the 8MHz 
CPU led to pervasive use of assembly.

The APIs were defined in terms of both Pascal and assembly, which is what leads 
people to think that it was written in Pascal.

Of course as time went on, there were pieces added and rewritten that were in 
Pascal, C, C++, etc. But if you worked on the classic Mac OS chances were you’d 
need to work in 68K assembly at some point.

Fortunately the 68K had a great instruction set so its assembly wound up being 
effectively a high-level language. While I generally preferred to install 
Jasik’s “The Debugger” to do source-level debugging at any level, a huge number 
of people just used MacsBug for everything, because looking at a disassembly 
was pretty much equivalent to looking at sources.

  -- Chris

Re: strangest systems I've sent email from

[Chris Hanson]

On Apr 27, 2016, at 1:25 PM, Fred Cisin  wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 27 Apr 2016, Sean Conner wrote:
>> Smalltalk has other issues.  In the 80s, there were not many machines
>> capable of running Smalltalk (I'm not aware of any implementation on micros,
>> serious or not)
> 
> Apple Lisa.  Don't know whether it ever went to market.

I think both Lisa and Mac Smalltalk went to market, or at least to academia and 
industry if they weren’t available as products.

  -- Chris

Re: strangest systems I've sent email from

[Chris Hanson]

On Apr 27, 2016, at 9:55 AM, Liam Proven  wrote:
> 
> Apple goes its own way, but has forgotten the truly innovative
> projects it had pre-NeXT, such as Dylan.

Dylan, despite being created by a bunch of Symbolics (and other Common Lisp) 
folks, was actually less innovative than it might sound these days. It was 
basically a Scheme-style Lisp-1 with a cleaned-up and pervasive CLOS that 
intentionally eschewed a metaobject protocol in favor of easy compilation and 
optimization. Which then had an infix syntax tacked on in the belief that it 
was all the parentheses that turned people off to Lisp, instead of the 
inability to reason in a vacuum about what assembly any arbitrary line of code 
would generate.

So the folks putting together Dylan spent A TON of effort on producing an 
infix-syntax Lisp-1 with CLOS which included support for a full Scheme-style 
syntax-transforming hygienic macro system. Nobody doing commercial Mac 
development wanted it because it was still a Lisp in Pascal/C-ish clothes, 
instead of the better C that they had been asking for. (And eventually got, in 
the form of Objective-C.)

The people who were not going to use Dylan were *never* going to use it, so it 
wasn’t really worthwhile to spend all the effort that they (and Carnegie 
Mellon, and Harlequin, and so on) did trying to appease them. That time, 
effort, and money would’ve been better spent actually shipping a PowerPC 
version of the prefix-syntax Dylan language, environment, and frameworks at a 
time when PowerPC was just coming onto the market along with enough RAM and CPU 
to make language choice matter a whole lot less. That would’ve enabled 
interesting and potentially game-changing applications, instead of just being a 
curiosity.

  -- Chris
  -- who is interested in buying a copy of the PowerPC version
 of Apple Dylan DR1 that Digitool shipped on contract to Apple,
 if anyone has it

Re: strangest systems I've sent email from

[Chris Hanson]

On Apr 29, 2016, at 7:16 AM, Fred Cisin  wrote:

>>> And you do know what Apple MacOS was originally written in, don't you?
>> On Thu, 28 Apr 2016, Chris Hanson wrote:
>> 
>> The original Macintosh System Software was almost entirely M68000 assembly 
>> language.
>> There were a couple parts of the original System Software that were written 
>> in Pascal, but by and large the space constraints of the 64KB ROMs and the 
>> 400KB floppy and the desire to eke every last cycle of performance out of 
>> the 8MHz CPU led to pervasive use of assembly.
>> The APIs were defined in terms of both Pascal and assembly, which is what 
>> leads people to think that it was written in Pascal.
> 
> How much was based on Lisa?  What was THAT written in?

Not much. I think the Memory Manager was originally written in Pascal for Lisa 
but got rewritten in 68K assembly for the Mac.

Lisa was designed to have 512KB to 1MB on a stock system, expandable to several 
MB, and also included an MMU & virtual memory. The original Lisa had two 860KB 
Twiggy drives and typically came with a ProFile, while the Lisa 2 included a 
5MB or 10MB ProFile, so a Lisa system typically even had swap.

Most of the lower-level portions of the OS were written in Pascal. The Lisa 
Office System applications and the Desktop were written in Clascal, a 
Smalltalk-style OO enhancement to Pascal that Apple hired Wirth to help design, 
which later turned into Object Pascal. All of the applications were based on 
the Application Toolkit, a Clascal framework implemented as a system shared 
library, whose design was a direct predecessor to MacApp.

None of that would really fly on the Mac, with 64KB of ROM, 128KB of RAM, and a 
single Twiggy (later Sony 3.5in) floppy.

  -- Chris

Re: Programming language failings [was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from]

[Chris Hanson]

On Apr 30, 2016, at 11:43 AM, Diane Bruce  wrote:
> 
> We cannot use the same outdated ideas we used to use for 'C'
> that we used 40 years ago today. Compilers have improved.
> Know your tools. And that's all I have said. 

In support of this, I’d encourage everyone who works with C to read Chris 
Lattner’s “What Every C Programmer Should Know About Undefined Behavior” series 
from the LLVM blog:

http://blog.llvm.org/2011/05/what-every-c-programmer-should-know.html
http://blog.llvm.org/2011/05/what-every-c-programmer-should-know_14.html
http://blog.llvm.org/2011/05/what-every-c-programmer-should-know_21.html

C has fairly well-defined semantics, they just aren’t necessarily what you 
think they are, and optimizers are taking advantage of them (under the “as if” 
rule) such that a developer’s idea of what assembly a specific section of C 
code should generate is not all that accurate these days.

  -- Chris

Re: Programming language failings [was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from]

[Chris Hanson]

On Apr 30, 2016, at 2:07 PM, Mouse  wrote:
> 
> Reading this really gives me the impression that it's time to fork C.
> There seems to me to be a need for two different languages, which I
> might slightly inaccurately call the one C used to be and the one it
> has become (and is becoming).
> 
> The first is the "high-level assembly" language, the one that's
> suitable for things like embedded programming in what C99 calls a
> standalone environment, kernel and low-level library implementations,
> and the like, where you want to do whatever's reasonable from the point
> of view of someone who knows the target machine architecture, even if
> it's formally undefined by the language.
> 
> The second is more the language the author of those posts is talking
> about, where the compiler is allowed to do surprising things for the
> sake of performance.

The author of those posts is the creator and lead developer of LLVM, clang, and 
Swift, and I think he would argue that the second case is also best served by 
the compiler in the first case, because you absolutely want the best 
performance and code size possible.

I'll note too that people are working in progressively more back ends for LLVM 
& clang for embedded uses.

  -- Chris

Interfacing with HP-HIL

[Chris Hanson]

Has anyone used any modern hardware to interface with HP-HIL gear? (HIL is 
Human Interface Link, not to be confused with HP-IL.) I’d like to interface an 
HP 46085A Control Dial Box  
with my Mac via USB.

But before I go any further in this—I’ve already put a bunch of effort into 
trying to get it to work—I realized I should probably ask here to see if anyone 
else has done it.  Has anyone?

HP-HIL uses what *should* be a pretty basic serial protocol with available 
docs. (Thanks, Bitsavers!) The only odd things about it are (1) a data rate of 
100Kbps (rather than say 115Kbps) and (2) the use of 12/O/1 framing (rather 
than say two 8/E/1 frames per packet and (3) a 12V supply line for what’s 
otherwise a TTL-compatible bus.

Getting the actual host interface IC is just about impossible without removing 
it from existing equipment, and the client interface IC doesn’t really seem 
like it would act as a host. The weird framing means virtually no common UART 
will work, and the data rate means something like an Arduino only has 160 
cycles/bit to work with.

It looks like I might be looking at either using either an Arduino or a CPLD to 
implement a 12/O/1 UART to talk to the control dial box, and using a second 
Arduino to communicate with that (via a parallel interface) to actually 
implement the USB HID via the builtin HID stack functionality on some models of 
Arduino.

  -- Chris

Re: Titlers, Switchers, Paintboxes, Paint Apps and Old Broadcast Equipment

[Chris Hanson]

Several of my friends worked on Intelligent Resources’ Video Explorer NuBus 
card, which could do realtime video capture and manipulation because it had 
some sort of video processing and switching chip on the card. It also had an 
open bus that could be used to connect multiple video-related cards together so 
they could bypass NuBus for sharing data. (NuBus is only 10-40 MB/sec.)

I think AnimEigo was using a subtitling system built atop Video Explorer cards 
right up until the switch to DVDs.

  -- Chris

Re: Best LCDs for retrocomputing - Was: Re: New *square* 1:1 26.5" LCD monitor 1920x1920

[Chris Hanson]

On May 17, 2016, at 1:05 PM, Eric Christopherson  
wrote:
> 
> 2. There are computers knocking about with actual digital RGB signals, like
> the BBC Micro B (IIRC). What I forgot to make explicit in my question was
> that I was asking about RGBI (+intensity), which AIUI is the same as CGA.

I think the Apple /// also output a digital RGB signal that was either RGBI or 
a couple bits per channel.

  -- Chris

Re: strangest systems I've sent email from

[Chris Hanson]

On May 11, 2016, at 5:41 PM, ben  wrote:
> 
> On 5/11/2016 5:54 PM, Toby Thain wrote:
>> On 2016-05-11 7:43 PM, Liam Proven wrote:
>>> ...
>>> If we'd had 4 decades of effort aimed at fast Lisp Machines, I think
>>> we'd have them.
>> 
>> Compiled Lisp, even on generic hardware, is fast. Fast enough, in fact,
>> that it obviated Symbolics. (More in Richard P. Gabriel's history of
>> Lucid.) See also: The newly open sourced Chez Scheme.
> 
> But List still sequential processing as far as I can see? How do you speed 
> that up?

Lisp has had data structures beyond lists for decades.

You don’t think a CLOS object is implemented as lists of lists of lists, do you?

  -- Chris

Re: strangest systems I've sent email from

[Chris Hanson]

On May 17, 2016, at 11:21 AM, Sean Conner  wrote:
> 
>  While the Amiga may have "cheated" by passing a reference to the message
> instead of copying it, conceptually, it was passing a message (for all the
> user knows, the message *could* be copied before being sent).  I still
> consider AmigaOS as a message based operating system.  

This is mostly what real microkernels do as well: Mach got very well-documented 
speedups from zero-copy sends that were specifically enabled by clever use of 
memory management hardware, and these kinds of techniques are still used in xnu 
on OS X today.

  -- Chris

Re: 'Inside Macintosh' books

[Chris Hanson]

For the original “Inside Macintosh,” there was:

1. The prerelease looseleaf edition, sent to developers.

2. The “phone book” edition where volumes I-III were combined, sent to 
developers.

3. The original “Inside Macintosh” volumes I-III, and later IV and V to cover 
the Mac Plus and Mac SE & Mac II, with photos of Mac logic boards on the 
covers, sold at retail.

4. Reissues of volumes I-V with new-style covers to match the new volume VI 
covering System 7 technologies.

And then a couple years after that, around the time the PowerPC-based Macs were 
released, there was “New Inside Macintosh” where the entire series was 
reorganized into 25-30 volumes based on content. I don’t think any “New Inside 
Macintosh” books were published after 1995 or so, though new ones were written 
to cover new technologies.

  -- Chris


> On May 18, 2016, at 9:11 AM, Alexandre Souza  
> wrote:
> 
> Ue...I have the 4 volume collection...is there another one?!
> 
> Enviado do meu Tele-Movel
> Em 18/05/2016 12:29, "tony duell"  escreveu:
> 
>> Still unpacking after a house move 18 months ago... I have found just over
>> a dozen volumes of Inside Macintosh.
>> 
>> Since programing is not my thing, and I am not into the Macintosh, I don't
>> really need them. Does anyone want them? Tbey are free, but would have to
>> be collected from me in SE London (near Bromley, easy to get to from the
>> M25).
>> 
>> I can make a list of titles if there is any interest.
>> 
>> -tony
>> 

Re: strangest systems I've sent email from

[Chris Hanson]

On May 18, 2016, at 8:33 AM, John Willis  wrote:

> Let's not forget that the bulk of the Apple Lisa operating system and
> at least large parts of the original Macintosh system software were also
> implemented in Pascal (though IIRC hand-translated into 68k assembly
> language), which was a pretty big mainstream success for proving
> Pascal as suitable for developing systems software.

Most of the original Mac operating system was originally written in 68K 
assembly, not just a hand translation of Pascal code. There were some rewrites 
of Pascal code from Lisa, for example the Memory Manager, but they went beyond 
hand translation.

Lisa mostly used Clascal, the first iteration of Object Pascal that Apple hired 
Wirth to help design. Clascal and the Lisa Application Toolkit led directly to 
Object Pascal and MacApp.

  -- Chris

Re: Classics long overdue a Boot.

[Chris Hanson]

I haven't booted my Lisa 2/10 in a very long time, not since before a 
cross-country move.

I'm a little worried about it. Last time I looked (a couple years ago) it 
didn't look like any caps had gone though. And at least it doesn't have an 
internal battery to worry about.

It definitely needs a floppy drive recalibration though, if not repair. Now 
that MacFloppyEmu exists (and I have one) I may just not worry about it, and 
run a cable out to use with that instead, so I can install the latest Office 
System as well as install Workshop.

I also need to pull out and boot my NeXT mono slab.

  -- Chris

Re: Classics long overdue a Boot.

[Chris Hanson]

On May 19, 2016, at 3:10 PM, Sean Caron  wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 19 May 2016, Chris Hanson wrote:
> 
>> I haven't booted my Lisa 2/10 in a very long time, not since before a 
>> cross-country move.
>> 
>> I'm a little worried about it. Last time I looked (a couple years ago) it 
>> didn't look like any caps had gone though. And at least it doesn't have an 
>> internal battery to worry about.
> 
> Be sure to check the battery! I saw a Lisa on EEVblog that met a horrible 
> end. Rotted out more thoroughly than any Amiga I've ever seen with battery 
> issues.

As I said, my Lisa is a Lisa 2/10, so it has no battery to worry about. :)

The Lisa 2 (aka 2/5, using an external 5MB ProFile) is the one that has the 
NiCd battery pack, not the 2/10.

> It reminds me, I should probably pull my Dad's Lisa 2 out of storage next 
> time I visit and give it a good looking over.

Here’s hoping it’s just fine!

  -- Chris

Re: strangest systems I've sent email from

[Chris Hanson]

On May 22, 2016, at 6:09 AM, Mouse  wrote:
> 
> I've often thought about building a C implementation that goes out of
> its way to break assumptions like "integers are two's complement with
> no padding bits" or "floats are IEEE" or "nil pointers are all-bits-0"
> or "all pointers are the same size and representation" or etc.

Just use Symbolics C on a Symbolics or ZetaC on a TI Explorer. (ZetaC was 
recently put in the Public Domain by its author, so you can take a look at how 
it was implemented.) Both of them I believe implemented C89.

There’s also someone writing a C to Common Lisp translator that takes some of 
the same approaches as those compilers:  
Something like that would make it possible to pull C code into a project like 
Mezzano.

(Another approach would be to write an LLVM back-end that generates Common Lisp 
using the same approach as ZetaC, and port clang to it.)

  -- Chris

Re: C standards and committees (was Re: strangest systems I've sent email from)

[Chris Hanson]

On May 20, 2016, at 8:58 PM, Sean Conner  wrote:
> 
> Now, it may sound cavalier of me, but of the three compilers I use at
> work (gcc, clang, Solaris Sun Works thingy) I know how to get them to layout
> the structs exactly as I need them

You can do this in Common Lisp too, though. It sounds more like the way C lets 
you represent the hardware matches closely with how you think about the 
hardware.

  -- Chris

NEC ProSpeed 386

[Chris Hanson]

I just acquired an NEC ProSpeed 386 portable from WeirdStuff.

http://imgur.com/a/vUTvd 

The system boots fine off floppy, and after running the setup program—that can 
still be downloaded from NEC America’s FTP site!—I was able to boot DOS and 
Windows 3.11 from the internal HD that WeirdStuff didn’t think it had. The 
machine is actually quite zippy once booted too, it’s obviously a desktop 
replacement, it even has a goddamn mechanical keyboard!

Unfortunately, there doesn’t seem to be all that much useful information about 
this system online. Does anyone have any pointers?

What I’d like to do most is get into it and down to the motherboard, since the 
CMOS battery obviously needs replacing, and I could see whether there’s any 
damage that needs to be cleaned up. I tried to disassemble it this morning but 
unfortunately I couldn’t find any release latches and the plastic is old enough 
to be a little brittle so I didn’t want to work it too hard.

As for what else I’ll do with it, I might consider replacing the drive with a 
larger one (or a larger CF card via an IDE/CF adaptor), adding the 8MB memory 
upgrade if I could ever find it, and adding an 80387 if I could ever find one 
and if there’s actually a socket for it. And if there’s any sort of network 
card for its weird-ass expansion slots of course I’d be all over that.

I also expect the battery is quite sketchy at this point, being a 
discharged-for-decades NiCd. The system won’t boot without the battery pack 
attached though, so I’ll have to figure out how to bypass that. (I expect I can 
just install some sort of jumper at the battery port, or wire in a bypass.) And 
the system ports are obscured by the battery pack too.

Nonetheless, not bad for well under the $60 sticker price when you consider 
that they also threw in the Griffin iMate I was also getting for that price!

  -- Chris

Re: NEC ProSpeed 386

[Chris Hanson]

On May 30, 2016, at 7:01 AM, Liam Proven  wrote:
> But it does please me that, right now, I'm using an Apple Extended II
> keyboard from 1990 on my 2011 Mac mini. :-) It feels more
> authentically "Mac-like" this way, somehow.

On my desk at work, I have a 5K iMac hooked up to the same Apple Extended 
Keyboard II that I've been using since 1990. :)

  -- Chris

Re: Apple & SGI keyboards (Re: NEC ProSpeed 386)

[Chris Hanson]

On Jun 2, 2016, at 2:42 PM, Electronics Plus  wrote:

> The Apple Extended Keyboard II also has mechanical switches, made by Alps. I 
> have several of them.

Except for “Made in Japan” M3501 models marked © 1989, those have Mitsumi 
mechanical key switches.

Those turn out to be the ones I prefer, so I have a couple of those in addition 
to a bunch with the Alps switches.

  -- Chris

Re: MIPS systems at Weird Stuff

[Chris Hanson]

On Jun 3, 2016, at 3:29 PM, Al Kossow  wrote:
> 
> For people in the Bay Area
> 
> Ian Finder had mentioned a couple of weeks ago that Weird Stuff had gotten in 
> some
> MIPS systems. They put them out on the floor for $75 ea, so I got a RC3020, 
> Magnum 3000
> and Magnum 3000/33.

Congratulations on the score! MIPS systems are actually the first interesting 
thing I saw at Weird Stuff back in 1995.

Is there a specific schedule on which Weird Stuff puts things out on the floor? 
I didn't see them last Saturday, maybe I need to go a different day if I want 
anything good?

  -- Chris

Re: SunOS 4

[Chris Hanson]

I know MemoryX in Santa Clara has at least recently had full boxed copies of 
SunOS 4.1.4 (aka Solaris 1.1.3) available for something like $99.

I'm unaware of whether Sun SPARC hardware carries a license for the OS with 
which it shipped. Some hardware companies did that, others bound the license to 
the media, still others bound it to a maintenance contract.

  -- Chris

Sent from my iPad

> On Jun 7, 2016, at 7:32 AM, Bryan C. Everly  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I have really fond memories of this operating system (from before the
> SVR4 Solaris days).  It was the first UNIX I used (and I'm still a big
> BSD fan).
> 
> (Not sure what the protocol is here for asking something like this so
> if I run afoul of a copyright policy or something, just tell me to
> stop asking and I will.)
> 
> Is there any way someone can get their hands on an install disc for
> this?  I have some old SPARC hardware that it would be fun to run on
> if I could find the installer.
> 
> Thanks,
> Bryan

Re: Big announcement tomorrow night

[Chris Hanson]

On Jun 8, 2016, at 9:08 PM, Mark J. Blair  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Jun 8, 2016, at 09:34, Evan Koblentz  wrote:
>> Give us a break, this is fundraising for a non-profit.
> 
> I wasn't trying to be critical at all. I just didn't make the connection that 
> the auction was the specific announcement that you were referring to.

Neither did I, I was expecting a followup to the original email to explain what 
the announcement was. Or at least a message with “Announcement” in the subject.

  -- Chris

Re: SunOS 4

[Chris Hanson]

This all makes me want to try bringing up a modern compiler on SunOS 4.1.4 on 
my SPARCstation 20 again.

The closest I got was bringing up GCC 2.95.3 using the system compiler, I 
couldn’t manage to build GCC 3.3 or 4.2.1 for SunOS. (For legal reasons I can’t 
really go near GPLv3 developer tools.)

Maybe it’s a bit too much of a lost cause, and I should stick to Solaris 8. 
That’d let me install the upgraded CPUs too. And I could probably build 
LLVM/clang on Linux as sparcv8/sun4m cross-compiler much more easily too...

  -- Chris

Re: NuTek Mac comes

[Chris Hanson]

On Jul 12, 2016, at 9:25 AM, Cameron Kaiser  wrote:
> 
> I'm really interested to
> see how they reimplemented the Toolbox under these circumstances,

There’s nothing particularly special about the Mac Toolbox and Operating System 
per se. Pretty much anyone could have attempted to develop a clean-room 
workalike using the “Inside Macintosh” books:

- Implement each API described in the book to have the behavior described in 
the books,
- Dispatching each one using the A-trap and taking parameters in the registers 
described in the books,
- And affecting the globals as described in the books.

Through System 6 there were only a few hundred and they were very 
well-understood, and even things like trap patching were (relatively) well 
managed by developers of large scale commercial apps because they had to work 
on everything from a Mac 512Ke to a Mac IIfx with tons of RAM and disk and 
multiple displays under MultiFinder or A/UX.

Many companies actually developed portable workalikes to the System 6 APIs in 
order to port their applications from one platform to another. QuarkXPress even 
used to provide a Toolbox-workalike API as part of their Windows plug-in SDK.

The real killer was System 7, which doubled or tripled the number of available 
APIs via the system, and did so with thorough integration and compatibility. 
Then there was the PowerPC transition and System 7.1.2. And then the API set 
grew enormously again with System 7.5… There was no way someone like NuTek 
could have kept up.

There were companies that developed later Mac API compatibility suites. One of 
them was Altura, the same people who provided the Quick Help application that 
all of the MacOS programming docs switched to (in lieu of Symantec’s THINK 
Reference); they provided an API suite that you could use to port to Windows or 
UNIX and they had at least a minimally working version for OPENSTEP after Apple 
bought NeXT and before Apple announced Carbon.

And of course Apple itself had a Mac API compatibility suite that was part of 
QuickTime for Windows. I know of companies that used it to actually port Mac 
applications to Windows, because it was fairly complete and licensing QuickTime 
for Windows for a commercial product wasn’t a hassle.

  -- Chris

Re: NuTek Mac comes

[Chris Hanson]

On Jul 12, 2016, at 1:00 PM, Swift Griggs  wrote:
> 
> That was the ROM code, right? I'm curious about that, myself. I guess that 
> it can all be software emulated.

ROM is software.

> I suppose they could have created some 
> kind of software mechanism to capture those calls and redirect them to a 
> library which re-implemented them.

You mean like using a dispatching system based on some sort of trap mechanism 
to call into the OS?

(How do you think it was possible for there to be multiple OS releases for the 
Mac after the first Mac 128 shipped? They didn’t tell people to crack open 
their systems and install new ROMs…)

> I'm guessing the same would be needed 
> for Quickdraw calls, but perhaps those weren't around in the 6.x days? I 
> dunno.

Huh?

QuickDraw was almost literally the first code running on the Mac once it 
switched to 68K.

  -- Chris

Re: DOS code in CP/M? Revisited...

[Chris Hanson]

On Jul 14, 2016, at 10:03 AM, Guy Sotomayor Jr  wrote:
> 
> IBM had looked at the PC market for a while.  It was actually TJ Watson Jr 
> that instructed that a “skunk” team
> be formed to see how quickly a PC with an IBM logo could be produced.  He was 
> afraid of Apple making
> inroads into IBM’s traditional markets and wanted to prevent that.  It was 
> never envisioned to be a huge market
> for these things…it was viewed only as a hobbyist thing that had the 
> potential to take away business from 
> IBM’s traditional machines.

And interestingly, these days IBM is a huge user of Macs… which these days use 
a derivative of the system architecture that IBM developed!

  -- Chris

Re: PLATO and learning models (was Re: NuTek Mac comes)

[Chris Hanson]

On Jul 15, 2016, at 10:03 AM, Swift Griggs  wrote:
> 
>  * It had graphics, but ran on terminals! 

Graphics terminals were a thing that existed. It wasn’t just PLATO that used 
them.

  -- Chris

Re: Building the Ultimate Classic Mac.

[Chris Hanson]

On Jul 15, 2016, at 1:49 PM, Austin Pass  wrote:

> I have several G5's, but am at a loss as to what to do with them. If they 
> supported classic Mac OS I'd have one up and running in a heartbeat.

You can't boot MacOS 9 on them, but you can run Classic under 10.4 on a G5 and 
it screams.

  -- Chris

Re: Building the Ultimate Classic Mac.

[Chris Hanson]

On Jul 17, 2016, at 12:56 PM, couryho...@aol.com wrote:

> that is interesting to know the old os can be  run under the  newer.


This was a standard feature of Mac OS X on PowerPC hardware from the 10.0 
developer builds through 10.4.

> I am confused on some of the G5 stuff.
> there is a real early one that has non intel processor

That would be a PowerMac G5. No Power Macintosh has an Intel processor.

> then there is a  1.1  ( i have one too) but you can not upgrade  to the 
> latest os (bummer)

By "1.1" do you mean the Mac Pro? The Mac Pro has always had an Intel 
processor, and the model code for the first Mac Pro was MacPro1,1.

> then there is the G% 3  or 3.3  dated one that   will  run currect os  too.

This is confusing. Can you restate it or at least correct your typos before 
posting? There's no G3 that can run the latest macOS, since a G3 is a kind of 
PowerPC CPU.

> is there a way to force the 1.1 one to run currest os  somehow!?

Not any supported way, which is the only way I'd be allowed to discuss.

  -- Chris

Re: Flex Disc options for the HP 9825

[Chris Hanson]

On Jul 18, 2016, at 10:06 PM, tony duell  wrote:
> 
>> Probably a question for Tony's encyclopedic knowledge. I just
>> scored two HP 9825, one a later "T" option and one "B" version 
>> with all the fixings (i.e ROM packs). They both seem to work
>> save the usual tape drive which I have not gotten to yet. Both
>> have the flexible disc ROM. What kind of discs can I hook up?
> 
> Which flexible disk ROM? There are 2. The older one, AFAIK 
> supports the HP9885 8" drive which has a 16 bit parallel interface
> and needs the right version of the 98032 to hook it up. The later
> disk ROM supports the HP9895 on HPIB.

I didn't look at the back to see what interface it has, but there was an HP 
9885M that looked pretty decent at Weird Stuff on Sunday ($75).

It was atop an HP 9000/236 ($150).

There were a couple other HP PA-RISC systems there, as well as a couple IBM 
RS/6000 desktops and what looked like a PS/2 Model 80, an Epson of some sort, 
and a Panasonic Sr. Partner.

And a nice looking Macintosh LC III for which they were asking too much, though 
I still considered it seriously since it was an LC III with an included 
10Base-T card…

  -- Chris

Re: Seagate 50-pin SCSI drives

[Chris Hanson]

Are they dumping it on eBay, or did they used to sell it on eBay?

If the former, do you know their eBay ID?

  -- Chris

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 19, 2016, at 12:40 PM, Electronics Plus  wrote:
> 
> A reseller in GA is dumping some online inventory that they used to sell on
> ebay. Included are 
> 
> 23 SEAGATE ST32500N HARD DRIVE
> 
> 
> 
> If interested, email to Mike Roetzer [m...@tbfcomputing.com]
> 
> 
> 
> Not affiliated with the seller at all.
> 
> 
> 
> Cindy Croxton
> 

Re: Multiflow Trace 14/300 close to being scrapped in Texas

[Chris Hanson]

On Jul 21, 2016, at 8:09 PM, Mark Linimon  wrote:
> 
> I see that someone has picked it up via Buy It Now.  No,
> it wasn't me.

I know the person who acquired it, who last I heard is seeking a good way to 
move and safely store it near its current site right now. If anyone has any 
suggestions, I can forward them along.

  -- Chris

Re: VCF West tickets

[Chris Hanson]

Any word on how the admission will work for those of us who prepaid?

Do we need to show our PayPal receipt, just have our ID with the same name, 
etc.?

  -- Chris

> On Jul 31, 2016, at 9:41 AM, Alan Hightower  wrote:
> 
> Yes, please clarify both the CHM admission and how my Paypal receipt
> email will translate into admission in various places. 
> 
> On 2016-07-31 12:03, Ali wrote: 
> 
>> Hold on a second I thought CHM admission was included in the price of the 
>> ticket. Also, is it saying that you have to be a CHM member and buy CHM 
>> tickets to get half off (i.e. just buying on the day of admission is not 
>> enough) otherwise I agree with Bill those of us who bought our tickets early 
>> you are being screwed.
>> 
>> -Ali
> 

X server for original PC (8088/8086)

[Chris Hanson]

Back in the day, did anyone produce an X11 server for DOS-based 8086/8088 
systems, say with support for Hercules or CGA graphics? Or was that strictly a 
286-or-better thing, given the overall constraints of the 8086 architecture?

(There were plenty of mouse-and-window systems for the PC/XT back then, I 
expect black & white X11 over a serial link would not be *that* bad…)

  -- Chris

Re: X server for original PC (8088/8086)

[Chris Hanson]

On Aug 19, 2016, at 2:40 PM, Zane Healy  wrote:
> 
>> On Aug 19, 2016, at 11:08 AM, Chris Hanson  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Back in the day, did anyone produce an X11 server for DOS-based 8086/8088 
>> systems, say with support for Hercules or CGA graphics? Or was that strictly 
>> a 286-or-better thing, given the overall constraints of the 8086 
>> architecture?
>> 
>> (There were plenty of mouse-and-window systems for the PC/XT back then, I 
>> expect black & white X11 over a serial link would not be *that* bad…)
>> 
>> -- Chris
>> 
> 
> The only thing that comes to mind is DESQview/X, and IIRC, that required a 
> minimum of a 386.  

There was plenty more than DESQview/X, and there were X11 servers that ran on 
286.

> I tend to think that X11 over serial would be nothing short of nightmarish.  
> After all, that’s why we have VNC.

I'm very specifically talking about pure black & white, with server-side 
bitmap-only fonts, and also (though I didn't originally say so) with an X 
client itself written in the 1980s that only really bare-bones X11R3 or so and 
only uses black & white. And running on a workstation of that era, of course.

While I wouldn't want to use such a combination over, say, 1200bps dialup, it 
doesn't seem like it would be utterly awful via a direct connection at whatever 
the serial port on a PC with an NEC V20 (8086-compatible and around 8 MHz) 
could handle reliably.

  -- Chris

Re: Halt and Catch Fire Tonight

[Chris Hanson]

HBO’s “Silicon Valley” has a number of Silicon Valley-area advisors actively 
helping to ensure they get these details right.

  -- Chris

> On Aug 24, 2016, at 8:17 PM, Tony Aiuto  wrote:
> 
> Taking this forward 30+ years, Silicon Valley is a period drama that gets
> significant details spot-on right - both in the gross generalizations that
> are network TV and in the nuances targeted to the cognoscenti.

Re: AT&T 3b2, IBM RT, others

[Chris Hanson]

They should really part it out, they could probably make more money and it 
would be more likely to find a home.

Like that person in Denver, who waited until the last minute when he had to 
empty his rental space and had an “Everything must go!!!” sale on his Macs — he 
should’ve been putting them up on eBay for 3-6 months in advance of that, and 
just moving them out, he’d have at least paid for his time and found them good 
homes.

  -- Chris

> On Aug 28, 2016, at 6:54 PM, Doug Fields  wrote:
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/112102162849
> 
> Looks like someone bought it all and is trying to resell the stuff I posted 
> about earlier this month. The original seller asked for $1200 for the lot of 
> it.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Doug
> 
>> On Aug 6, 2016, at 5:16 PM, Doug F  wrote:
>> 
>> The woman didn't seem to be interested in shipping, Ken. I posted her 
>> information online earlier so you can contact her directly. One of the other 
>> list members is in Austin and may be able to assist, however. Check the 
>> recent archives. :)
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> 
>> Doug
>> 
>>> On Aug 5, 2016, at 10:03 PM, Ken Seefried  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I'd really like the AT&T 4425 terminal, which doesn't seem to have
>>> been claimed.  I spent a couple of years with one on my desk.  Any
>>> chance they'd ship?
>>> 
>>> My wife and I have an agreement that if I bring home any more VME kit
>>> I have to get rid of an equivalent tonnage of other things.  So unless
>>> that Motorola tower is an 88200 or something suitable esoteric, I
>>> probably need to pass.
>>> 
>>> The E&S box looks like a Sun 3/110 or 4/110 with additional boards.
>>> I'd love to have one.
>>> 
>>> Obviously, I would have killed for the Explorer or the RTs.  Double
>>> kill for the 5620.  Good they've found homes.
>>> 
>>> KJ
>> 
>> 
> 

Finding developer docs for VME hardware?

[Chris Hanson]

Anyone have any suggestions for how to go about finding developer documentation 
for VME hardware? I haven’t been having much luck with Google searches.

Given that (aside from its use by workstation manufacturers) most VME hardware 
was intended for composing systems from disparate parts, I assume that most of 
it at one time had programming documentation available. After all, you can’t 
just provide binary drivers when you know neither what CPU nor what OS your 
customers will be running—or even if they’ll be running an OS, versus some 
tightly-coded assembly.

My current interest is in using something like a D/A board or a specific audio 
interface[1] to provide audio for a VME-based workstation that lacks it, but I 
figure being able to find information like this will be generally useful to 
those of us with VME hardware.

  -- Chris

[1] Something like a Vigra MMI-210: 
>, about $125 on eBay.

Re: Finding developer docs for VME hardware?

[Chris Hanson]

No worries, I expected that I'd need to find the manufacturers docs. I was 
hoping though that someone would have a repository or something, like 
Bitsavers...

  -- Chris

Sent from my iPad

> On Sep 10, 2016, at 2:28 PM, Mark Linimon  wrote:
> 
> You just had to go by each manufacturer's documentation.  I can say
> this with some authority, as I wrote some of said documentation during
> my several years at Mizar :-)
> 
> There is the spec, of course, but that only tells you what each board
> must implement so it can talk to the others across the backplane.
> 
> Many VMEbus installations may not have even run an OS, just an event loop.
> If you ran pDOS or OS/9 or vxWorks (my own specialty at the time), you
> had to either get a driver from the manufacturer or write your own.
> 
> Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.
> 
> mcl

Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...

[Chris Hanson]

What do you mean by “retired,” and what kind of setup did you have for it?

  -- Chris

> On Sep 11, 2016, at 11:10 AM, George Rachor  wrote:
> 
> I just retired my G4 cube (still working).  Replaced it with a NOT NEW iMac.
> 
> George Rachor
> geo...@rachors.com 
> 
> 
>> On Sep 11, 2016, at 7:16 AM, Liam Proven  wrote:
>> 
>> http://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?p=30456459#p30456459
>> 
>> Found via:
>> 
>> http://arstechnica.com/apple/2016/09/an-os-9-odyssey-why-do-some-mac-users-still-rely-on-16-year-old-software/
>> 
>> -- 
>> Liam Proven • Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
>> Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
>> MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
>> Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) • +420 702 829 053 (ČR)
> 

Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...

[Chris Hanson]

This person was talking about 680x0-based Macs being “16-bit.” Ugh.

  -- Chris

> On Sep 11, 2016, at 7:16 AM, Liam Proven  wrote:
> 
> http://arstechnica.com/civis/viewtopic.php?p=30456459#p30456459
> 
> Found via:
> 
> http://arstechnica.com/apple/2016/09/an-os-9-odyssey-why-do-some-mac-users-still-rely-on-16-year-old-software/
> 
> -- 
> Liam Proven • Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
> Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
> MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
> Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) • +420 702 829 053 (ČR)

Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...

[Chris Hanson]

On Sep 12, 2016, at 2:21 AM, Peter Corlett  wrote:
> 
> On Sun, Sep 11, 2016 at 06:43:32PM -0700, Chris Hanson wrote:
>> This person was talking about 680x0-based Macs being “16-bit.” Ugh.
> 
> The original 68000 *was*. Although there were instructions for 32 bit ALU
> operations, it only had a 16 bit ALU and the operands had to go through the 
> ALU
> twice. This illusion went away with multiplication and division, which only
> existed in 16 bit form.
> 
> The 68020 onwards made the CPU fully 32 bit, although various bits of legacy 
> 16
> bit cruft remained for compatibility.

No, the 68000 was a 32-bit CPU, as defined by the register width and 
programming model.

The fact that it was implemented with a 16-bit ALU and had a 16-bit data path 
to memory is immaterial.

  -- Chris

Re: 68K Macs with MacOS 7.5 still in production use...

[Chris Hanson]

On Sep 12, 2016, at 7:33 AM, Liam Proven  wrote:
> 
> On 12 September 2016 at 03:43, Chris Hanson  
> wrote:
>> This person was talking about 680x0-based Macs being “16-bit.” Ugh.
> 
> 
> Well, to be specific, the interviewee was talking about something that
> is networking-specific on System 7.5, which implies pre-7.6 and thus
> pre-Open Transport. IIRC 7.6 is also the first release that requires
> 32-bit clean ROMs -- 7.5 and earlier didn't.
> 
> So it sounds like a legitimate misunderstanding, probably via
> over-zealous editing.

It was from a forum post, and the editors should have caught it. The existence 
of "32-bit clean" ROMs does not imply that the prior ROMs — or CPU 
architecture! — were 16-bit, or that operating systems that ran on them were.

  -- Chris

Re: dd-equivalent for VMS

[Chris Hanson via cctalk]

On Jun 15, 2017, at 11:30 PM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk  
wrote:
> 
> Is there a dd equivalent for VMS?

I’m pretty sure PIP is the “dd” equivalent on DEC operating systems in general.

  -- Chris

Re: Back To: Getting to NeXt Command prompt

[Chris Hanson via cctalk]

It’s command-backquote, not quote. The backquote key is in the upper left of 
the numeric keypad.

Sorry for linking to a keyboard poaching site but it has a couple good images 
of the NeXT keyboards: 
https://deskthority.net/photos-f62/next-non-adb-keyboard-t12259.html 


  -- Chris

> On Jun 21, 2017, at 5:42 AM, william degnan via cctalk 
>  wrote:
> 
> Confirmed.  It's Command + '
> 
> (not shift + Command + ~)
> 
> "Command + The key with the tilde and the single quote in the number pad of
> a Next keyboard:"
> 
> Bill

Re: Why women were the first computer programmers

[Chris Hanson via cctalk]

On Aug 24, 2017, at 2:27 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk  
wrote:
> 
> On Thu, Aug 24, 2017 at 2:12 PM, Jay West via cctalk 
> wrote:
> 
>> It was written...
>> ---
>> That's crude, ignorant, sexist, and wrong.
>> ---
>> 
>> The above statement sounds to me as being intolerant, hatespeech, and
>> judgemental. Why do you think you have the right to determine that and
>> apply labels to someone?
> 
> It's none of the above.  Why does Rob have the right to label all women as
> incapable of doing the same job as a man?
> 
>> The world has gone mad with political correctness, and I will - at least
>> in the very tiny corner of it that I control - not allow it.
>> 
> 
> You may feel free to remove me from this list.

Likewise.

I want nothing to do with people who think sexism is reasonable on a technical 
mailing list, or that pointing out the inappropriateness of sexism is 
“political correctness gone mad.”

  -- Chris

Re: Why women were the first computer programmers

[Chris Hanson via cctalk]

On Aug 24, 2017, at 3:11 PM, Jay West via cctalk  wrote:
> 
> While one could argue about the intent of the original poster, one cannot 
> argue that the personal attack - and namecalling - from Evan was acceptable. 
> It was not.

Evan did not engage in either a personal attack or name-calling.

Rod made a claim about women’s suitability to programming. Evan quoted the 
claim and replied:

> That's crude, ignorant, sexist, and wrong.

He didn’t call Rod any names or personally attack him, he responded to the 
statement. (Accurately, too.)

The fact that you’re calling this a personal attack while complaining about 
“political correctness gone mad” says way more about you than it does about 
Evan.

  -- Chris

Re: LMI Lambda Lispmachine Keyboard aka Space Cadet Keyboad

[Chris Hanson via cctalk]

There’s an emulator called LambdaDelta by Daniel Seagraves: 
https://github.com/dseagrav/ld/

Really though, you should find someone with an LMI Lambda to give the keyboard 
to. It belongs with its mate.

  — Chris

Sent from my iPad

> On Feb 17, 2018, at 7:29 AM, Marc Holz via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> Hello,
> 
> 
> 
> I have the keyboard for a LMI Lambda Lispmachine but I'm missing the
> computer itself.
> 
> Is there a simulator or similar available?
> 
> 
> 
> The keyboard is similar like here
> http://world.std.com/~jdostale/kbd/SpaceCadet.html.
> 
> On the left side there is lable with "LMI" and a sticker "Scientific
> Computers Limited".
> 
> 
> 
> Here is a picture showing the actual layout:
> http://www.covingtoninnovations.com/michael/blog/1402/140208-keyboard.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> Best Regards,
> 
> Marc
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

Re: Writing emulators [Was: Re: VCF PNW 2018: Pictures!]

[Chris Hanson via cctalk]

On Feb 21, 2018, at 11:09 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk  
wrote:
> 
> That is tricky to cleanly and efficiently implement where each component is 
> modeled independently and
> glued together with a higher-level framework.

This is why I wonder if multithreaded emulation might be a reasonable future 
approach: Model more components of a system as operating independently as they 
produce and react to signals, have them block when not reacting (either to a 
clock pulse or a signal), and let the operating system manage scheduling.

  -- Chris

Later Data General (D214/AViiON) keyboards?

[Chris Hanson via cctalk]

No, I'm not looking for old Dasher keyboards because "omg Severance."

I have a couple of Data General terminals (D214) and a couple of Data General 
UNIX workstations (AViiON, using m88k CPU) and only one keyboard. The one that 
uses an 8-pin DIN connector similar to the 5-pin IBM PC XT keyboard 
connector—and it speaks the same protocol over the same lines, but also has a 
couple extra features enabled by those extra 3 pins. (I believe the part number 
of the DG keyboard is 6348, but I'm not positive and can't find my reference at 
the moment.)

Does anyone have any more of the keyboards for D214 terminals or AViiON 
workstations that need a good home, a home which reunites them with appropriate 
hardware? I gather I can use XT-compatible keyboards with the AViiON systems at 
least, because of the compatibility I noted above, but I don't know about my 
terminals.

  -- Chris
  -- also always looking for anything else AViiON-related, 
hardware/software/docs
  -- and for docs for the D214 terminal too, of course

[cctalk] Re: DECnet to be dropped from Linux

[Chris Hanson via cctalk]

It just sounds to me like the implementation should move to userspace. Why does 
it need to be in the kernel?

  -- Chris

[cctalk] Bubbl-Tec bubble memory (QBus)

[Chris Hanson via cctalk]

I just acquired the several Bubbl-Tec bubble memory boards for QBus, and was 
wondering if anyone had manuals or more information than the couple of web 
pages I've found with high-level descriptions:

MBC-11A bubble memory controller
MBB-11A bubble memory board for use with MBC-11A
QBI-11C bubble memory board
QSB-11A bubble memory board with RX01/02 emulation

It looks like I can just drop the QSB-11A into a system and it should work as 
if it's an RX01 attached to a controller, but the other boards appear to need 
cabling and possibly jumpers to configure them for use, and maybe custom 
drivers/code too.

  -- Chris

[cctalk] Re: 50 Years of the HP 3000

[Chris Hanson via cctalk]

On Nov 1, 2022, at 11:55 AM, Mark Moulding via cctalk  
wrote:
> 
> I'd like to see $2000, but will cheerfully entertain offers (cheerfully if 
> they're reasonable, or met with hysterical laughter if not).

You may need to adjust your expectations on that front. Even with 
pandemic-related inflation, that’s quite high for something not a lot of people 
will know they should be interested in.

  — Chris
  — who has a 917LX and A400, and wishes he could find a 37 or Micro

Sent from my iPad

[cctalk] Re: LC:M+L (Living Computer Museum)

[Chris Hanson via cctalk]

On Oct 31, 2022, at 4:31 PM, Rich Alderson via cctalk  
wrote:
> 
> Tour guides and front desk personnel were immediately let go, because it was
> clear that it would be several months, up to a year, before we could open
> again.


Microsoft, Google, Apple, Facebook etc. were willing to pay all of the 
ancillary on-site staff (like the people work at their coffee bars) their 
regular wages through the pandemic even when nobody was allowed in the offices.

LCM+L, being owned by a billionaire's foundation, could have chosen to do that 
too.

>  Professional museum staff (curator, educational coordinator, etc.) were
> retained for a short while, to wind things down.

They and the entire engineering staff should have been kept on until the museum 
could reopen, doing whatever work they could remotely, and should still be 
working there now.

That they weren't shows how little the foundation cares for the things Paul 
Allen cared about.

While I prefer the way LCM+L made working systems available to the public over 
the CHM's mostly-static "behind a velvet rope" approach, CHM has turned out to 
be the better institution since they at least kept people on.

> All of the engineers, which the exception of the manager of the department,
> were laid off as of 1 July 2020.  None of us was allowed to return to the
> museum at any future time, and no one associated with the mothballed museum 
> was
> allowed to talk to any of us.

Disgusting. Good luck to LCM+L hiring anyone with real skills for passion rates 
if they ever actually do try to reopen.

  -- Chris

[cctalk] Re: LC:M+L (Living Computer Museum)

[Chris Hanson via cctalk]

On Oct 31, 2022, at 11:45 PM, Tom Hunter via cctalk  
wrote:
> 
> Thank you Rich for shedding light on this. Most of it makes sense to me,
> but the secrecy part where you weren't allowed to talk to those still at
> the museum is weird. I can't see any possible commercial reason for
> preventing former engineering staff to talk with their former colleagues or
> replacements. If anything you would think that any new staff would be
> encouraged to talk to the engineers who left to benefit from their
> experience. As I said this appears to be rather strange.

I think you have it backwards: The way I read Rich's message, former LCM+L 
staff can talk to each other -- they can't really prevent that! -- but anyone 
still on at LCM+L can't talk to them about LCM+L (or presumably the public).

That's fairly standard for a company; if I were to leave my employer, my former 
colleagues wouldn't be able to talk to me about current internal goings-on 
there because I'm a civilian. (We could certainly talk about anything else.) 
It's a bit weird for an educational/cultural institution though.

  -- Chris

[cctalk] Re: Data General Nova and Eclipse Hobbyist License...

[Chris Hanson via cctalk]

On Nov 17, 2022, at 10:12 PM, Bruce Ray via cctalk  
wrote:

> It is not a sublicense, Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc., now has copyright 
> and title to the legacy DG/EMC software.

That's awesome news, congratulations!

  -- Chris

[cctalk] Re: PT-68K

[Chris Hanson via cctalk]

On Dec 27, 2022, at 7:47 PM, Will Cooke via cctalk  
wrote:
> 
>> On 12/27/2022 9:36 PM CST Chris via cctalk  wrote:
>> 
>> Those are for a different board. Maybe close enough?
> 
> If you read the description it says the only difference is the clock chip, 
> which I believe is "fully" compatible.

That’s the difference between the PT68K1 and PT68K1A. The system featured in 
Peter Stark’s “Build the PT-68K” series in Radio-Electronics was actually the 
PT68K2, which is the version with PC-XT slots, keyboard support, and PCB 
size/layout. There don’t seem to be ROM images on the web site for that.

They do exist on Bitsavers, look for Peripheral Technology.

  — Chris

[cctalk] Re: Knockoffs, was: Low cost logic analyzer

[Chris Hanson via cctalk]

On Mar 14, 2023, at 2:55 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk  wrote:
> 
> On 3/14/2023 4:16 PM, Jonathan Chapman wrote:
>> There are other things that we've chosen not to run for the same basic 
>> reason, and others that won't get open sourced. 
> 
> I will admit I am trending in that direction.  I put things as FLOSS because 
> I wanted the designs to outlast my involvement with the community.  I thought 
> if the design was open source and I wanted to or had to depart (including the 
> Great Departure), the designs would continue to be available rather than 
> disappear. But, so many people have abused that idea.  Luckily, most of my 
> stuff is not useful enough to copy and sell online...

If you posted your design as Open Source, someone else producing it isn't a 
knockoff, it's the system working as intended.

  -- Chris

[cctalk] NCD-17c and NCD-19 X terminal cap lists?

[Chris Hanson via cctalk]

Does anyone have a list of replacement capacitors to use for NCD X terminals, 
specifically the 17c and 19? A couple searches online don't turn up anything.

I just got my NCD 17c up and running—I showed a pic or two on 
discord://classiccmp/#terminals a couple days ago—and now while I hear the HV 
power up the low voltage power seems kaput and the system never comes on. And 
my NCD 19 won't power up either.

I can certainly take them apart and make lists, and I will if need be, but I 
was hoping maybe someone had already done so so I could get an order in ASAP. 
The power supply for these things is in the display portion, which makes me a 
bit nervous just generally… :)

  -- Chris

[cctalk] Re: NCD-17c and NCD-19 X terminal cap lists?

[Chris Hanson via cctalk]

On Apr 4, 2023, at 6:29 PM, Richard via cctalk  wrote:
> 
> In article <07a97414-a207-42f5-8c6b-64f4556e3...@eschatologist.net>,
>    "Chris Hanson via cctalk"  writes:
> 
>> Does anyone have a list of replacement capacitors to use for NCD X
>> terminals, specifically the 17c and 19? A couple searches online don't turn
>> up anything.
> 
> While I don't have a specific replacement list for those terms, this
> is exactly the sort of thing for which "caps wiki" was created:
> <https://caps.wiki/wiki/Main_Page>
> 
> At the least you should contribute what you learn to that wiki if you
> have to figure it out yourself.

Amen, will do! And thanks for the link, once I put together the lists I’ll also 
try to get links to them from the terminals wiki.

We’re all probably going to have to do a lot of recapping in the next few 
years, may as well save each other time…

  — Chris

[cctalk] Re: The World Wide Web

[Chris Hanson via cctalk]

On May 4, 2023, at 10:51 AM, Patrick Finnegan via cctalk 
 wrote:
> 
> It seems like all of the good USENET providers are subscription
> services now. I'm not sure of any ISP that I've heard of who still
> runs one.

What about eternal-september.org?

  -- Chris

[cctalk] Re: CPT Phoenix Jr system unit? Monitor and Keyboard

[Chris Hanson via cctalk]

Sorry I missed this, you only sent it to the list and I haven't looked at the 
list for a while. I've actually just acquired a CPT Phoenix Jr. computer to go 
with my display and keyboard, so I now have a full system that I'm planning to 
restore and use.

In what way has your display failed? If it's dim a CRT rejuvenator might do the 
trick. And if it's just stopped working, it may just need a recap. I'd only 
give up on it if the tube is necked or the yoke damaged and a new tube couldn't 
be sourced...

That said, do you have any boot, utility, or other disks archived that the rest 
of us could use with a system?

  -- Chris

[cctalk] Re: CPT Phoenix Jr system unit? Monitor and Keyboard

[Chris Hanson via cctalk]

On Jun 7, 2023, at 5:09 PM, Chris Hanson via cctalk  
wrote:
> 
> Sorry I missed this, you only sent it to the list and I haven't looked at the 
> list for a while. I've actually just acquired a CPT Phoenix Jr. computer to 
> go with my display and keyboard, so I now have a full system that I'm 
> planning to restore and use.

I've set up a group at https://groups.io/g/cptphoenixjr for discussion and 
preservation of the CPT Phoenix JR.

I've just posted a little bit about how I'm going about trying to get the ROM 
booting in emulation as a way to figure out how the hardware is attached. Of 
course, if you or anyone else has knowledge here, that'd make everything a lot 
easier than working backwards from the ROM code and peripheral data sheets. :)

  -- Chris

[cctalk] Re: Little Databases

[Chris Hanson via cctalk]

On Aug 19, 2023, at 7:33 PM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk  
wrote:
> 
> On Fri, Aug 18, 2023, 8:31 PM Gavin Scott via cctalk 
> wrote:
> 
>> It [SQLite] has billions of installations and on the order of a trillion
>> databases in use.
>> 
> 
> Surely you hyperbole.

This is not hyperbole, there are multiple billions of devices that have 
deployed SQLite—over a billion Apple devices alone.

  — Chris

[cctalk] Re: TI 960

[Chris Hanson via cctalk]

On Sep 4, 2023, at 1:01 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk  
wrote:
> 
> Weren't the TI 900 series the things called Transputers?

No. Completely unrelated.

  — Chris

[cctalk] Re: Computhink Eagle 32 - software, docs, info?

[Chris Hanson via cctalk]

I picked up this system from its previous caretaker yesterday, to hold onto for 
a friend. I’ve also inventoried the major functional ICs and archived the 
“IPL-M” ROMs.

Here’s what’s in the Eagle-32:

- Main Logic Board
  - 8MHz 68000 CPU
  - 2x D8255 programmable peripheral interface
- left 8255 is clearly for parallel and user port
- right 8255 I strongly suspect is for hard disk, possibly ANSI or SASI
  - D8253C programmable interval timer
  - 2x 2651N programmable communications interface for serial ports
  - 2x 2716 for IPL-M 0/1 ROMs
- Disk Controller Board
  - FD1701B-02 floppy disk controller
- No video board, whether text or graphics

Since there’s no video board in the system, and a couple of cables internally 
that aren’t attached to anything, I expect it was removed by a previous 
caretaker. This is sad because without one it’s unlikely to come up, not that 
anyone has found any software for it. On the other hand, there are zero PALs, 
so both full reverse engineering and maintenance should be straightforward.

I threw the 4KB of boot ROM in Ghidra and confirmed a couple things:

- At boot, ROM is mapped to 0, and then remapped either by a write to the 
location or by a cycle counter: The initial stack pointer at 0x0 is 0x0001fffe 
and the initial program counter at 0x4 is 0x00ffc026, indicating the ROM is 
normally located at 0x00ffc000.
- The ROM freely interchanges addresses in the 0x00ffc000..0x00ff range and 
addresses in the 0xc000..0x range, which is annoying to deal with 
in Ghidra.
- I/O devices appear to be in the 0x00ff8000..0x00ffbfff range, all of the 
devices accessed via the bootstrap seem to be barely above 0x00ff8000.
- Only NMI, bus error, interrupt 2, and interrupt 5 are set up by the bootstrap.
- The bootstrap is very bare-bones but still has a bunch of indirection in it; 
it’s obviously written in assembly, but it does seem to have parameterization 
so it may support both console and serial I/O.

I suspect that I can figure out from the pattern of I/O accesses which devices 
are at which address in the memory map, at least if I bring up an emulation in 
MAME. That should at least allow writing new code for it, and _maybe_ even 
figuring out which CRT controller the video hardware uses and where in the 
memory map it is. (I suspect the 6845 and/or 6847 just from the time period, 
but who knows? Gotta see what it actually do when trying to show the “IPL IN 
PROGRESS” string contained in the ROM, or one of the couple error strings…)

  — Chris

[cctalk] Re: The Mac at 40

[Chris Hanson via cctalk]

Apple didn't "steal" anything because Xerox received a tranche of pre-IPO Apple 
shares in exchange for allowing SJ and his folks to visit PARC for a bunch of 
demos and do whatever they wanted with what they saw.

Nowadays you can also try out systems like Smalltalk-78, Xerox ViewPoint, etc. 
as well as the original Lisa and Macintosh systems in emulation -- and read 
papers like "Inventing the Lisa Human Interface," published in ACM Interactions 
27 years ago -- to see just how different what SJ and his people saw at Xerox 
was from what Apple shipped in the Lisa and Macintosh 4-5 years after the visit.

- The top-of-screen menu bar was an Apple invention.
- Atkinson's "region" data structure to allow windows to update when partially 
obscured was an Apple invention.
- Open/Save file dialogs were an Apple invention for Macintosh, because with 
128KB of RAM it couldn't run both Finder and an application and thus couldn't 
use Lisa's "stationery pad" concept.

I can't believe people still don't have a solid grasp of these things after 40 
years of both journalism and academia covering them in rather exhaustive detail.

  -- Chris

[cctalk] Re: Vmebus

[Chris Hanson via cctalk]

On Jan 30, 2024, at 3:25 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk  
wrote:
> 
> thanks.  I suppose that gives me enough idea what time period and use they
> had

VMEbus was widely used as a successor to MultiBus in the workstation market, a 
lot of vendors that started with MultiBus (Sun/SGI for example) switched to VME 
because they were using 68K anyway and it a supported full 32-bit address and 
data space, where MultiBus was mostly designed for 8080/8085/8086 (and even 
8086 required some extension to support 16-bit data bus width and 20-bit 
address space).

The biggest uses of VMEbus though were in laboratory automation, process 
control, and robotics, where it was in competition with both MultiBus and 
DIO[1] (the bus on the HP 9000-200 and 9000-300 series, which were originally 
designed as successors to the HP 1000/21MX/2100 series). That's why you'll see 
a lot of analog and digital I/O hardware, computer vision systems, motor 
controllers, and so on in the VMEbus 3U and 6U form factors. This is also what 
got VMEbus used in a lot of American defense applications.

  -- Chris

[cctalk] Re: Vmebus

[Chris Hanson via cctalk]

On Jan 29, 2024, at 8:07 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk  
wrote:
> 
> Anyone have a VMEbus system they use at least occasionally? If so, what
> make/model/config?

I have a variety of VME hardware that I use some of the time, and on the 
ClassicCmp Discord we even have a #vme channel.

I've mostly been using a Motorola MVME167 (with some additional VMEbus memory 
cards) netbooted to NetBSD off and on, though I also have 147 and 177 cards 
(68030 and 68060) that I'll use. I also have a couple of MVME197 88000-based 
cards that I've used to port OpenBSD-mvme88k forward by one point release from 
when they dropped support. (I wish NetBSD had mvme88k…) And I have a couple 
other 68K VMEbus cards like a Xycom XVME-600 and XVME-630; the 600 is cute and 
runs Mach2 FORTH from ROM, while the 630 is a more or less generic 68EC030.

I have a variety of peripheral cards that I've been trying to do various things 
with, including a slick RasterGraf RG-750 graphics & human interface card (it's 
34010-based and has AT keyboard and serial mouse ports), a couple NI GPIB 
cards, and a bunch of earlier cards like Motorola HD/floppy, Ethernet, SCSI, 
and intelligent serial cards, and so on.

I also have a few older Motorola 68010 and 68020 boards; I want to bring up 
MINIX 1.5.10.7 at some point on my MVME050+MVME121 and see if I can't get it to 
leverage the MMU. And I have a VME/10 workstation that needs to be put back 
together that I'd like to run Motorola SVR2 on.

Finally, I have a bit of more exotic gear. I have a couple of the INMOS 
Transputer VME cards (as well as the non-VME equivalents for my ITEMs) and I 
have a few Mercury Computer Systems i860 cards for which I really, really, 
*really* want to find documentation someday. It'd be a lot fun to have a bunch 
of i860s rendering a scene or something that I can then output via the RG-750, 
controlled by an 88K...

Oh yeah, and I have a few Suns and a Symbolics that use 9U VME, as well as a 
couple ISI systems that use 6U VME[1]. 

  -- Chris

[1] ISI used their own QBus-style ejectors on the card top instead of the 
standard Motorola style plates, so they're *not quite* the same form factor. 
Darned annoying.

[cctalk] Re: Vmebus

[Chris Hanson via cctalk]

On Feb 2, 2024, at 2:06 AM, David Brownlee via cctalk  
wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 31 Jan 2024 at 18:34, Wouter de Waal via cctalk
>  wrote:
>> If someone here has the warm fuzzies for PPC VME, we can talk :-)
> 
> Other than a reflexive twitch to see if NetBSD can run on the MPC7448? :-p

It’s NetBSD, of course it can run!

The real question is: Does it currently run? If the answer is “No,” it’s just a 
port away as long as sufficient information about the CPU and platform is 
available.

The modularity in NetBSD that enables this is its greatest strength. It enables 
things like the newly brought up “virt68k” platform which is basically NetBSD 
for a QEMU-hosted 68K emulator with VirtIO, which can be useful for things like 
kernel testing and pkgsrc builds.

  — Chris

Re: NeXT in Toronto/Canada - was Re: Looking to re-home some NeXT hardware

[Chris Hanson via cctalk]

On Mar 8, 2017, at 7:01 PM, Mouse via cctalk  wrote:
> 
>> I'm also a Cube owner in Toronto.  Maybe we should start a local
>> collector's / user's group :D
> 
>> Any others care to speak up?
> 
> I'm in Ottawa.  I've got a - very small! - collection of NeXT hardware.
> A slab or two, at least one megapixel display (the 2bpp greyscale
> kind), some small number of keyboards, a mouse or two, that's probably
> about it.  I gave away my Cube years back.
> 
> I've been tempted to get rid of them, but feel sentimental enough about
> having developed MouseX that I've so far avoided doing so.  Also, I've
> been holding out the (admittedly slight) hope that hardware
> documentation will surface for the interesting hardware; I do not run
> closed-source software, so that's important to me.

Sufficient hardware documentation has been available to write emulators 
(Previous) and port NetBSD.

That said, I don’t understand why one would have NeXT hardware and then run 
NetBSD on it instead of the NEXTSTEP/OPENSTEP operating system that was 
designed for it and is period-appropriate. If you’re not going to use it as 
NeXT hardware, maybe someone who will use it that way would be happy to have it.

Also, especially for software that’s (1) built using a common and 
well-undertsood architecture, (2) not “secured” in any way, and (3) not being 
updated, you really can maintain and improve it yourself pretty reasonably.

Heck, there’s a pretty accurate Open Source decompiler for Objective-C called 
“code-dump” (derived Steve Nygard’s “class-dump”) to which it would probably be 
straightforward to add 68040 support…

  -- Chris