[cctalk] Re: IBM 1620 Model 2 software wanted
On 8/28/23 16:56, Dave Babcock via cctalk wrote: > Chuck, > > Yes, I mean Monitor II-D. > > No, CHM does not have a working 1311 drive. The need for Monitor II-D > is for the IBM 1620 Model 2 simulators being written. Monitor I does not > run correctly on a 1620 Model 2 when index registers are enabled and > used by a program. My recollection was that Monitor II-D was about a tray of cards to load onto a 1311. It would be quite the tour de force if someone managed to keep all those cards around. Never had the pleasure of running a Model 2. All my experience was on CADETs with options needed for Monitor II-D (and SPS and FORTRAN). --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: IBM 1620 Model 2 software wanted
Chuck, Yes, I mean Monitor II-D. No, CHM does not have a working 1311 drive. The need for Monitor II-D is for the IBM 1620 Model 2 simulators being written. Monitor I does not run correctly on a 1620 Model 2 when index registers are enabled and used by a program. Dave On 8/28/2023 3:48 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: On 8/28/23 13:54, Dave Babcock via cctalk wrote: To all, What they need, and CHM would be very interested in adding to its IBM 1620 collection, is original software specifically for the IBM 1620 Model 2. Of particular interest are the IBM 1620 Monitor II and IBM 1620-2 diagnostics, but any Model 2 software would be helpful to their efforts. Just curious--do you mean Monitor II-D? Does CHM have a working 1311 drive hooked to that CADET? --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: IBM 1620 Model 2 software wanted
On 8/28/23 13:54, Dave Babcock via cctalk wrote: > To all, > What they need, and CHM would be very interested in adding to its IBM > 1620 collection, is original software specifically for the IBM 1620 > Model 2. Of particular interest are the IBM 1620 Monitor II and IBM > 1620-2 diagnostics, but any Model 2 software would be helpful to their > efforts. Just curious--do you mean Monitor II-D? Does CHM have a working 1311 drive hooked to that CADET? --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: IBM 1620 Model 2 software wanted
> Some 20 years ago, I led the Computer History Museum's restoration of an > IBM 1620 Model 1 computer. We all owe you thanks for this. mcl
Re: IBM 1620 Simulation
On 8/27/21 11:23 AM, Lee Courtney via cctalk wrote: > Video interview I made with John (Maniotes) in preparation for donation of > the 1620 program library to CHM - https://youtu.be/N12pQBiRd7A I remember that name--he was at Purdue Calumet Campus. I probably even met and talked to him 50+ years ago. --Chuck
Re: IBM 1620 Simulation
Video interview I made with John (Maniotes) in preparation for donation of the 1620 program library to CHM - https://youtu.be/N12pQBiRd7A Lee Courtney On Fri, Aug 27, 2021 at 9:50 AM Van Snyder via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, 2021-08-26 at 20:17 -0700, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > > > > On 8/26/21 7:43 PM, Van Snyder via cctalk wrote: > > > There was a professor at Purdue who had two 20-drawer card cabinets > > > full of 1620 software. I think his name was Maniotis. I think the > > > Computer History Museum in Mountain View has it now. Maybe it's > > > online. > > > > https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102710141 > > > > The 1620 restoration crew read them it > > they are in > > http://bitsavers.org/bits/1620/1620.zip > > Should be http://bitsavers.org/bits/IBM/1620/1620.zip > > > > > -- Lee Courtney +1-650-704-3934 cell
Re: IBM 1620 Simulation
On Thu, 2021-08-26 at 20:17 -0700, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 8/26/21 7:43 PM, Van Snyder via cctalk wrote: > > There was a professor at Purdue who had two 20-drawer card cabinets > > full of 1620 software. I think his name was Maniotis. I think the > > Computer History Museum in Mountain View has it now. Maybe it's > > online. > > https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102710141 > > The 1620 restoration crew read them it > they are in > http://bitsavers.org/bits/1620/1620.zip Should be http://bitsavers.org/bits/IBM/1620/1620.zip >
Re: IBM 1620 Simulation
On 8/26/21 7:43 PM, Van Snyder via cctalk wrote: > There was a professor at Purdue who had two 20-drawer card cabinets > full of 1620 software. I think his name was Maniotis. I think the > Computer History Museum in Mountain View has it now. Maybe it's online. https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102710141 The 1620 restoration crew read them it they are in http://bitsavers.org/bits/1620/1620.zip
Re: IBM 1620 Simulation
On 8/26/21 7:16 PM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: / printer / cpu setup wasn't too hard to run. > > Run assembler if you want to study for a while. Back in the day, you knew that you'd arrived when you could mentally assemble a one-liner console program and type it in without resorting to pencil and paper... But yes, IIRC, there's a one-card/one-line boot loader for Monitor--you can't boot directly from disk. The loader specifies where Monitor is and where input will be coming from (card, paper tape, console). One thing that throws a lot of folks is how primitive the disk monitor system is--there are no files, per se--just permanently-assigned disk locations for various things. Back in the day, I used to store some of my work on the last couple of cylinders in the work cylinders. Very often, in spite of the system being used by others most of the time I could recover my data. Like I said, it's not the same under simulation. But that can be said for just about any old machine. I doubt that running an LGP-30 simulation is anything like running on a real LGP-30. --Chuck
Re: IBM 1620 Simulation
There was a professor at Purdue who had two 20-drawer card cabinets full of 1620 software. I think his name was Maniotis. I think the Computer History Museum in Mountain View has it now. Maybe it's online. On Thu, 2021-08-26 at 22:07 -0400, Ray Jewhurst via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 9:46 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < > cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > On 8/26/21 5:14 PM, Ray Jewhurst via cctalk wrote: > > > Hello all,Long time lurker, extremely rare poster, I was reading > > > the Wikipediaarticle on the IBM 1620 and became quite > > > intrigued. I know that there > > is a > > > simulator for it on SimH but I have never ran or simulated any > > card-driven > > > machines before. I have all the documentation and the > > > ibm1620.zip filefrom bitsavers but I am not sure what to do > > > next. I know I would like totry Monitor, Fortran-II and possibly > > > GOTRAN but I have so many questions.I read the SimH documentation > > > which gave me some understanding but I > > don't > > > know exactly how the card decks work, how to install Monitor or > > > how to > > boot > > > Monitor once it is installed since I know you have to boot off a > > > deck. > > My > > > final question is, is there an easy to use card-driven machine to > > > cut myteeth on? Also, any anecdotes on any of the old IBM > > > computers would beboth welcome and greatly appreciated. > > > > Cards are just ASCII lines separated by newlines> > > > > For more information, see: > > https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/read/3610586/ibm-1620-simulator-usage-01-dec-2008-simh > > I have already read that document. The thing that stuck with me most > wasthe fact that you can not boot off the hard drive (or were they > alreadycalling them DASDs?) > > > It's been years since I used the SIMH 1620 simulator, so I can't > > evenclaim to be remotely current. I used it to check out some > > sample codeback then. > > My reaction: It's just not the same. I guess you had to be there. > > Did anyone manage to snag a copy of Monitor IID? Or is the only > > extantversion Monitor I? The differences were significant. > > I only saw Monitor I. Will it even run on a 1620-II? > > > Also, don't forget SPS! > SPS is included both standalone and in the Monitor I distro, so > isFortran-II > > > If you're new to the 1620, I recommend the following book: > > > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/1620/Basic_Programming_Concepts_and_the_IBM_1620_Computer_1962.pdf > > Thank you. I will check it out starting tonight. > > > If you want to use a totally (i.e. no disk) card-driven version of > > the1620, I'd recommend that you start with simple machine > > languageprograms. I (dimly) recall that using the card-only > > FORTRAN compilerwas a bit of a chore: read pass 1, read your > > program, while punching anintermediate deck, read pass 2 and the > > intermediate deck, read thesubroutine library and wind up with an > > executable deck. > I will try the card-driven version first I think as an intro to > cards. > > > --Chuck > > > ThanksRay
Re: IBM 1620 Simulation
On 8/26/2021 5:14 PM, Ray Jewhurst via cctalk wrote: Hello all, Long time lurker, extremely rare poster, I was reading the Wikipedia article on the IBM 1620 and became quite intrigued. I know that there is a simulator for it on SimH but I have never ran or simulated any card-driven machines before. I have all the documentation and the ibm1620.zip file from bitsavers but I am not sure what to do next. I know I would like to try Monitor, Fortran-II and possibly GOTRAN but I have so many questions. I read the SimH documentation which gave me some understanding but I don't know exactly how the card decks work, how to install Monitor or how to boot Monitor once it is installed since I know you have to boot off a deck. My final question is, is there an easy to use card-driven machine to cut my teeth on? Also, any anecdotes on any of the old IBM computers would be both welcome and greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance Ray To run from cards, you probably will need to look up the exact keys, but basically you insert a boot instruction in memory with the machine halted then run it. You prepare one of the decks in the card reader prior to that (keep the SIMH console hand). The Fortran compiler will need a punch file specified where you can find it, as each pass will punch cards that need to be successively read in on future passes. I've not run one with a disk or paper tape or other facilities, but the reader / punch / printer / cpu setup wasn't too hard to run. Run assembler if you want to study for a while. thanks Jim
Re: IBM 1620 Simulation
On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 9:46 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 8/26/21 5:14 PM, Ray Jewhurst via cctalk wrote: > > Hello all, > > Long time lurker, extremely rare poster, I was reading the Wikipedia > > article on the IBM 1620 and became quite intrigued. I know that there > is a > > simulator for it on SimH but I have never ran or simulated any > card-driven > > machines before. I have all the documentation and the ibm1620.zip file > > from bitsavers but I am not sure what to do next. I know I would like to > > try Monitor, Fortran-II and possibly GOTRAN but I have so many questions. > > I read the SimH documentation which gave me some understanding but I > don't > > know exactly how the card decks work, how to install Monitor or how to > boot > > Monitor once it is installed since I know you have to boot off a deck. > My > > final question is, is there an easy to use card-driven machine to cut my > > teeth on? Also, any anecdotes on any of the old IBM computers would be > > both welcome and greatly appreciated. > > > > Cards are just ASCII lines separated by newlines> > > > For more information, see: > > https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/read/3610586/ibm-1620-simulator-usage-01-dec-2008-simh I have already read that document. The thing that stuck with me most was the fact that you can not boot off the hard drive (or were they already calling them DASDs?) > It's been years since I used the SIMH 1620 simulator, so I can't even > claim to be remotely current. I used it to check out some sample code > back then. > > My reaction: It's just not the same. I guess you had to be there. > > Did anyone manage to snag a copy of Monitor IID? Or is the only extant > version Monitor I? The differences were significant. I only saw Monitor I. Will it even run on a 1620-II? > Also, don't forget SPS! > SPS is included both standalone and in the Monitor I distro, so is Fortran-II > If you're new to the 1620, I recommend the following book: > > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/1620/Basic_Programming_Concepts_and_the_IBM_1620_Computer_1962.pdf Thank you. I will check it out starting tonight. > If you want to use a totally (i.e. no disk) card-driven version of the > 1620, I'd recommend that you start with simple machine language > programs. I (dimly) recall that using the card-only FORTRAN compiler > was a bit of a chore: read pass 1, read your program, while punching an > intermediate deck, read pass 2 and the intermediate deck, read the > subroutine library and wind up with an executable deck. > I will try the card-driven version first I think as an intro to cards. > --Chuck > > Thanks Ray
Re: IBM 1620 Simulation
On 8/26/21 5:14 PM, Ray Jewhurst via cctalk wrote: > Hello all, > Long time lurker, extremely rare poster, I was reading the Wikipedia > article on the IBM 1620 and became quite intrigued. I know that there is a > simulator for it on SimH but I have never ran or simulated any card-driven > machines before. I have all the documentation and the ibm1620.zip file > from bitsavers but I am not sure what to do next. I know I would like to > try Monitor, Fortran-II and possibly GOTRAN but I have so many questions. > I read the SimH documentation which gave me some understanding but I don't > know exactly how the card decks work, how to install Monitor or how to boot > Monitor once it is installed since I know you have to boot off a deck. My > final question is, is there an easy to use card-driven machine to cut my > teeth on? Also, any anecdotes on any of the old IBM computers would be > both welcome and greatly appreciated. > Cards are just ASCII lines separated by newlines> For more information, see: https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/read/3610586/ibm-1620-simulator-usage-01-dec-2008-simh It's been years since I used the SIMH 1620 simulator, so I can't even claim to be remotely current. I used it to check out some sample code back then. My reaction: It's just not the same. I guess you had to be there. Did anyone manage to snag a copy of Monitor IID? Or is the only extant version Monitor I? The differences were significant. Also, don't forget SPS! If you're new to the 1620, I recommend the following book: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/1620/Basic_Programming_Concepts_and_the_IBM_1620_Computer_1962.pdf If you want to use a totally (i.e. no disk) card-driven version of the 1620, I'd recommend that you start with simple machine language programs. I (dimly) recall that using the card-only FORTRAN compiler was a bit of a chore: read pass 1, read your program, while punching an intermediate deck, read pass 2 and the intermediate deck, read the subroutine library and wind up with an executable deck. --Chuck
Re: IBM 1620 Simulation
https://github.com/IBM-1620/Junior On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 5:15 PM Ray Jewhurst via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hello all, > Long time lurker, extremely rare poster, I was reading the Wikipedia > article on the IBM 1620 and became quite intrigued. I know that there is a > simulator for it on SimH but I have never ran or simulated any card-driven > machines before. I have all the documentation and the ibm1620.zip file > from bitsavers but I am not sure what to do next. I know I would like to > try Monitor, Fortran-II and possibly GOTRAN but I have so many questions. > I read the SimH documentation which gave me some understanding but I don't > know exactly how the card decks work, how to install Monitor or how to boot > Monitor once it is installed since I know you have to boot off a deck. My > final question is, is there an easy to use card-driven machine to cut my > teeth on? Also, any anecdotes on any of the old IBM computers would be > both welcome and greatly appreciated. > > Thanks in advance > > Ray > -- Lee Courtney +1-650-704-3934 cell
Water Cooling and Hot Climates was RE: IBM 1620; was: Early Programming Books
> -Original Message- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Van Snyder via > cctalk > Sent: 22 June 2021 00:00 > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: IBM 1620; was: Early Programming Books > > On Mon, 2021-06-21 at 17:26 -0400, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: > > > Of course, nowadays, the old R22 systems are being refilled with > > > purified propane, called R290. Cheap, with better thermal > > > properties than R22, but probably not legal when LCM picked up the > 6500. > > > > When cleaning out a 3rd party CDC dealer quite a few years back, he > > remarked that the CDC machines going way back all the way to the 800s > > were fantastically unpicky about how they were cooled. He just used a > > garden hose connected to the building potable water, and if the > > machine under test needed more coolant because it was running warm, it > > just pumped more supply. Heated waste water went down the drain. > > > > This unlike the IBM water machines. > > I was once told that the most valuable guy in a Honeywell 6080 Multics shop > was the plumber. > I don't ever remember the 6080 being water cooled? I Thought Honeywell/GEC was all air cooled. All the L66s (which were from what the Multics machine was developed) were air cooled. I was told the following tale by one of my Honeywell contacts ... Apparently the last Shah of Iran owned a Level 66 for the use of his secret police. Apart from the fact that the OS had been modified by Honeywell Italy, and the documentation for this was in Italian which no one on the job understood, and when the OS crashed it was usually in a section of the code with Italian comments, there was also a problem with the power. As the temperature rose the power invariable failed. This was because it was run from a diesel generator that was out in the sun, it over heated and cut out. ... any way after many complaints the military man in charge came to the Honeywell staff and told them the problem was solved. They of course asked how and were taken to the generator and shown the latest modification. They had fitted a new cap to the radiator with a thermometer in it, as often found on vintage cars. They had painted a read line on the gauge and assigned a soldier to watch it. When the needle got to the line, he blew his whistle and several other soldiers appeared and threw buckets of water over the engine until it cooled down I just wonder what they did while waiting for it to overheat.. > > > > -- > > Will Dave G4UGM
Re: IBM 1620; was: Early Programming Books
On Mon, 2021-06-21 at 18:55 -0500, Gavin Scott via cctalk wrote: > Oh yeah, that was like 12 years ago? I believe they had gotten the > 1620 CADET (“Can't Add, Doesn't Even Try”) running One of my colleagues, about fifty years ago, wanted to use the 1620 for telemetry processing. So he replaced the arithmetic tables to do decimal with ones that did octal instead. The code was, of course, in assembler, not FORTRAN.
Re: IBM 1620; was: Early Programming Books
On Mon, Jun 21, 2021 at 1:43 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > For some (jprobably hallucinatory) reason, I thought there was a project > at CHM to replace the 1620 core stack with semiconductor memory. Guess > that never happened. Oh yeah, that was like 12 years ago? I believe they had gotten the 1620 CADET (“Can't Add, Doesn't Even Try”) running, but there was something original they didn't have working (could have been the core) that they had implemented in a little semiconductor board stuck in it. IIRC the system was in operating condition at the time. But I had forgotten I ever knew this until you mentioned it.
Re: IBM 1620; was: Early Programming Books
On 6/21/2021 4:00 PM, Van Snyder via cctalk wrote: I was once told that the most valuable guy in a Honeywell 6080 Multics shop was the plumber. No water cooling.
Re: IBM 1620; was: Early Programming Books
On Mon, 2021-06-21 at 17:26 -0400, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: > > Of course, nowadays, the old R22 systems are being refilled with > > purified propane, called R290. Cheap, with better thermal properties > > than R22, but probably not legal when LCM picked up the 6500. > > When cleaning out a 3rd party CDC dealer quite a few years back, he > remarked that the CDC machines going way back all the way to the 800s > were fantastically unpicky about how they were cooled. He just used a > garden hose connected to the building potable water, and if the > machine under test needed more coolant because it was running warm, it > just pumped more supply. Heated waste water went down the drain. > > This unlike the IBM water machines. I was once told that the most valuable guy in a Honeywell 6080 Multics shop was the plumber. > > -- > Will
Re: IBM 1620; was: Early Programming Books
> Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 16:02:20 -0400 > From: Paul Koning via cctalk >> On Jun 21, 2021, at 3:52 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 6/21/21 11:53 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >>> Perhaps you were thinking about the CDC 6500 at the late lamented LCM? >>> That got some replacement stacks, which was an interesting puzzle because >>> the read data connection out of the memory modules is a differential analog >>> signal carrying the sense wire data, so the replacement module had to >>> produce signals of that form. >> From whence did the LCM 6500 come? > Some vague memory says Purdue. LCM actually got it running, which was an > interesting problem. It required recreating the inter-chassis cables (since > the original ones were cut as part of dismantling the machine) and restoring > the cooling system. That was a bit tricky since it uses non-PC coolant, > which actually still exists but can't be manufactured any longer -- you have > to use whatever recycled material still exists in the world, and find a > graybeard AC tech who knows how to work with the stuff. > I think the machine is pretty much original except that a few core stacks > were busted so they were replaced by RAM based emulations. And it may be > that the original console display wasn't used because of worries of breaking > it -- the design of that machine wasn't very good and it apparently has > reliability issues. As I was the original negotiator for the acquisition of the 6500 for LCM (not yet LCM+L :-), allow me to chime in. Paul Allen alerted me to the existence of a "surplus" CDC 6500 at the Chippewa Falls Museum of Industry and Technology in early 2011. (PGA was always on the lookout for interesting systems, especially those with which he had a personal connection.) I spoke to several people at CFMIT, their BoD discussed the possibility, and came back with a "No, thank you." In early 2012, a management team was hired for the museum as we ramped up to opening, consisting of an Engineering Manager and a Business Manager. The latter gentleman was an old friend of PGA and WHG, having been their boss when they were PDP-10 programmers for the Bonneville Power RODS project; he also negotiated the purchase of the Portland Trailblazers basketball team by PGA, and a number of other deals along the way. He picked up the 6500 acquisition, convinced the BoD at CFMIT to sell PGA the system, and it came to pass. We learned when it was delivered that the machine had been at Purdue for its 22 years of active service, from 1967 to 1989, and was purchased back by CDC to donation to CFMIT, part of whose mission was to have at least one of every machine designed by hometown boy Seymour Cray. The CDC FEs used a Sawzall vel sim. to remove all the interchassis cabling, since "no one will ever want to run this thing again". The Engineering Manager, who in previous life wrote the microcode for the XKL Toad-1 System's XKL-1 CPU, hired a new Principal Engineer, Bruce Sherry, to run the restoration of the 6500. (Bruce designed the XNI-1 Ethernet board for the Toad-1, then went off to Strobe Data to do designs like their Nova and PDP-11 clones. He also designed the 2nd generation Massbus Disk Emulator at LCM.) Bruce found that the company which originally built the cables still had the Cray design files, so they could recreate them; the pins were silver rather than gold or tin, so he had to buy a brick of silver bullion for the company which made the pins (need: c. 10,000, minimum order: 50,000). Bruce brought in a wonder worker from Strobe, the late David Cameron, to do the wiring; between 2012 and 2020, when we closed down, we found *3* miswirings out of that 10,000 or so. Because of Cray's physical design for the memory, Bruce had to spec out a plexiglass box into which he inserted a small memory card, in order to keep the proper airflow characteristics in the memory bays. Bruce's business card at LCM listed his title as "Technomancer". Rich
Re: IBM 1620; was: Early Programming Books
> When cleaning out a 3rd party CDC dealer quite a few years back, he > remarked that the CDC machines going way back all the way to the 800s > were fantastically unpicky about how they were cooled. So I just reread what I wrote, and see it is crap. What I meant is that CDC machines going back all the way to the 6000s and 7000s, and UP TO the 800s, were unpicky. Basically, most of the line. Me not poet. -- Will
Re: IBM 1620; was: Early Programming Books
> Of course, nowadays, the old R22 systems are being refilled with > purified propane, called R290. Cheap, with better thermal properties > than R22, but probably not legal when LCM picked up the 6500. When cleaning out a 3rd party CDC dealer quite a few years back, he remarked that the CDC machines going way back all the way to the 800s were fantastically unpicky about how they were cooled. He just used a garden hose connected to the building potable water, and if the machine under test needed more coolant because it was running warm, it just pumped more supply. Heated waste water went down the drain. This unlike the IBM water machines. -- Will
Re: IBM 1620; was: Early Programming Books
On 6/21/21 1:02 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > Some vague memory says Purdue. LCM actually got it running, which was an > interesting problem. It required recreating the inter-chassis cables (since > the original ones were cut as part of dismantling the machine) and restoring > the cooling system. That was a bit tricky since it uses non-PC coolant, > which actually still exists but can't be manufactured any longer -- you have > to use whatever recycled material still exists in the world, and find a > graybeard AC tech who knows how to work with the stuff. If that was the system in the basement of the Math building, I remember it well. When I used it, it was running an enhanced version of MACE; Greg Mansfield's and Dave Callender's predecessor to Kronos. Differed from SCOPE in that much more of the system was CM-resident. There were other significant internal differences as well from SCOPE. Did I ever mention that I was the one who introduced Greg to the wonders of gelato? I know that Greg left CDC to work for Cray; but I lost track of him sometime in the late 1980s. I can well imagine that it was a struggle to get the system out of the Purdue location. What with the 7090s and the 1401, it was pretty crowded. Of course, nowadays, the old R22 systems are being refilled with purified propane, called R290. Cheap, with better thermal properties than R22, but probably not legal when LCM picked up the 6500. --Chuck
Re: IBM 1620; was: Early Programming Books
> On Jun 21, 2021, at 3:52 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 6/21/21 11:53 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> Perhaps you were thinking about the CDC 6500 at the late lamented LCM? That >> got some replacement stacks, which was an interesting puzzle because the >> read data connection out of the memory modules is a differential analog >> signal carrying the sense wire data, so the replacement module had to >> produce signals of that form. > > No, it was definitely a CHM project--could have been for the 1401, > though.In way of comparison to the 6000 core, 1401 and 1620 memory > is much larger, less dense and slower--and I don't believe that the > machine architecture makes use of a read-modify-write that the 6000 so > neatly exploited. > > From whence did the LCM 6500 come? > > --Chuck Some vague memory says Purdue. LCM actually got it running, which was an interesting problem. It required recreating the inter-chassis cables (since the original ones were cut as part of dismantling the machine) and restoring the cooling system. That was a bit tricky since it uses non-PC coolant, which actually still exists but can't be manufactured any longer -- you have to use whatever recycled material still exists in the world, and find a graybeard AC tech who knows how to work with the stuff. I think the machine is pretty much original except that a few core stacks were busted so they were replaced by RAM based emulations. And it may be that the original console display wasn't used because of worries of breaking it -- the design of that machine wasn't very good and it apparently has reliability issues. paul
Re: IBM 1620; was: Early Programming Books
On 6/21/21 11:53 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > Perhaps you were thinking about the CDC 6500 at the late lamented LCM? That > got some replacement stacks, which was an interesting puzzle because the read > data connection out of the memory modules is a differential analog signal > carrying the sense wire data, so the replacement module had to produce > signals of that form. No, it was definitely a CHM project--could have been for the 1401, though.In way of comparison to the 6000 core, 1401 and 1620 memory is much larger, less dense and slower--and I don't believe that the machine architecture makes use of a read-modify-write that the 6000 so neatly exploited. >From whence did the LCM 6500 come? --Chuck
Re: IBM 1620; was: Early Programming Books
> On Jun 21, 2021, at 2:43 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk > wrote: > > On 6/21/21 10:55 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> > memory. Nobody explained why that was a real problem. >> >> Core memory is fairly sensitive to temperature. In the case of the 1620, >> there is a heating system that brings the core memory box up to its >> operating temperature, which is why it takes several minutes after you turn >> on power before the machine will run. >> >> Possibly the fan problem meant the temperature control system was no longer >> adequate. > > For some (jprobably hallucinatory) reason, I thought there was a project > at CHM to replace the 1620 core stack with semiconductor memory. Guess > that never happened. > > --Chuck Perhaps you were thinking about the CDC 6500 at the late lamented LCM? That got some replacement stacks, which was an interesting puzzle because the read data connection out of the memory modules is a differential analog signal carrying the sense wire data, so the replacement module had to produce signals of that form. paul
RE: IBM 1620; was: Early Programming Books
> -Original Message- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis via > cctalk > Sent: 21 June 2021 19:43 > To: Paul Koning via cctalk > Subject: Re: IBM 1620; was: Early Programming Books > > On 6/21/21 10:55 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > memory. Nobody explained why that was a real problem. > > > > Core memory is fairly sensitive to temperature. In the case of the 1620, > there is a heating system that brings the core memory box up to its operating > temperature, which is why it takes several minutes after you turn on power > before the machine will run. > > > > Possibly the fan problem meant the temperature control system was no > longer adequate. > > For some (jprobably hallucinatory) reason, I thought there was a project > at CHM to replace the 1620 core stack with semiconductor memory. Guess > that never happened. > > --Chuck > I believe that CHM had several issues with its 1620. There was also a project to produce a new console https://hackaday.com/tag/ibm-1620/ Dave
Re: IBM 1620; was: Early Programming Books
On 6/21/21 10:55 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > memory. Nobody explained why that was a real problem. > > Core memory is fairly sensitive to temperature. In the case of the 1620, > there is a heating system that brings the core memory box up to its operating > temperature, which is why it takes several minutes after you turn on power > before the machine will run. > > Possibly the fan problem meant the temperature control system was no longer > adequate. For some (jprobably hallucinatory) reason, I thought there was a project at CHM to replace the 1620 core stack with semiconductor memory. Guess that never happened. --Chuck
Re: IBM 1620 manuals
Jon, The Computer History Museum (Mountain View, California) has the most extensive collection of IBM 1620 items - hardware, manuals, books, software, etc. - in the world. Most of the items were collected a number of years ago when a team of volunteers restored the museum's IBM 1620 Model 1 Level F computer to full operation. I verified that the museum has both of these physical manuals, plus some associated update notices. So, the museum does not need them. Thanks for offering. A subset of the restoration team is currently building a historic replica of the machine - dubbed the IBM 1620 Jr. - for the museum's education department use. We've exhibited it at VCF West the past 2 years [winning Best in Show last year] and will be there again this year. This year we will be highlighting our work to create a general-purpose, ASCII terminal using an IBM/Lexmark Wheelwriter 1000 typewriter. Thanks, Dave On 5/25/2019 11:35 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: On 05/13/2019 10:57 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: I just discovered a binder with 2 IBM 1620 manuals. A quick check shows bitsavers has these and newer editions of them. So, does anybody want : IBM 1620 Central Processing Unit, Model 2 (Form A26-5781-1) and IBM 1620 Monitor II System Reference Manual (Form C26-5774-0) Jon OK, since the mysterious "Steve" who actually HAS a 1620 apparently can't be contacted, anybody else have a 1620, or know somebody who does? Or, has a significant collection of 1620 items? These manuals, or newer editions, are already on bitsavers, so there's nothing new there. Otherwise they go to the person who contacted me first on 5/13. (I'm just seeing if there's anybody who actually NEEDS these before giving them to somebody who just "wants" them.) Jon
Re: IBM 1620 manuals
On 05/13/2019 10:57 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: I just discovered a binder with 2 IBM 1620 manuals. A quick check shows bitsavers has these and newer editions of them. So, does anybody want : IBM 1620 Central Processing Unit, Model 2 (Form A26-5781-1) and IBM 1620 Monitor II System Reference Manual (Form C26-5774-0) Jon OK, since the mysterious "Steve" who actually HAS a 1620 apparently can't be contacted, anybody else have a 1620, or know somebody who does? Or, has a significant collection of 1620 items? These manuals, or newer editions, are already on bitsavers, so there's nothing new there. Otherwise they go to the person who contacted me first on 5/13. (I'm just seeing if there's anybody who actually NEEDS these before giving them to somebody who just "wants" them.) Jon
RE: IBM 1620
On making PC boards, we had a shop mix the top and bottom layers. They tried to tell us it didn't matter but our boards had an edge connector, with different fingers on each side. It was expensive high temperature PC board as well. Dwight
Re: IBM 1620
On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 5:08 PM, Lyle Bickley wrote: > On Thu, 27 Aug 2015 14:28:30 -0500 > Ben Sinclair wrote: > >> The CHM has a bit of information, and links to three other 1620's that >> they know about: >> http://www.computerhistory.org/projects/ibm_1620/ibm1620/ >> >> From what I've been reading, there may be only one operational 1620 >> right now, but the CHM is also trying to restore one. > > The IBM 1620 at the CHM is a running computer. There were two teams that > worked on the 1620 at the CHM. The first Team got it running. Unfortunately, > IBM used the wrong kind of solder on > the core memory and so the wires of > the core memory literally "dissolved". That sounds suspiciously like a problem Henk Stegeman told me he had encountered with the core memory on a System/3; the problem there had been a reaction between the core memory solder (or was it the actual wires used to string the cores?) and the foam used to make a seal for the air cooling through the core... either way, vital bits of the core stack got dissolved by the foam over 40 years... Mike
Re: IBM 1620
On 08/30/2015 05:09 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: On 08/30/2015 02:00 PM, Jon Elson wrote: I hacked a fiber optic light pen onto a Calcomp plotter and made some artwork directly onto film, and then in 1996 I built a laser photoplotter that cranks out 1000x1000 DPI images on red-sensitive film at 0.6 inches/minute. It can do up to 20 x 24" films, but I've never gone over about one foot square. The trick is, it has to be VERY accurate to line up with existing PC boards. I mostly use it to make solder paste stencils, now, but originally made it for PC board master artwork. That's pretty impressive, Jon. I do remember the headaches with registration of early multi-layer PCBs. Lots of rejects. YIKES! Multilayer! I do have a system for registering 2-layer boards, back when I used to make those myself. You need a piece of Plexiglas about the same thickness as the PC board material. You need a scrap of PC board material to use as a spacer between the front and rear artwork films. You put this on a light table, and glue the strip of PC board material to the edge of the film, place the Plexiglas on the film and place the other film on top of the Plexiglas. Glue the top film with rubber cement and use a magnifier to adjust alignment until it is as close as you can get it, then put a weight on the glued joint and leave it for a couple hours. When the glue is dry, you can slip a photoresist-covered board between the two films and expose in a vacuum frame. The two sides will come out well-aligned. Jon
Re: IBM 1620
On 08/30/2015 02:00 PM, Jon Elson wrote: I hacked a fiber optic light pen onto a Calcomp plotter and made some artwork directly onto film, and then in 1996 I built a laser photoplotter that cranks out 1000x1000 DPI images on red-sensitive film at 0.6 inches/minute. It can do up to 20 x 24" films, but I've never gone over about one foot square. The trick is, it has to be VERY accurate to line up with existing PC boards. I mostly use it to make solder paste stencils, now, but originally made it for PC board master artwork. That's pretty impressive, Jon. I do remember the headaches with registration of early multi-layer PCBs. Lots of rejects. --Chuck
Re: IBM 1620
On 08/31/2015 02:59 AM, Dave G4UGM wrote: I seem to remember that 1620 core runs warm, and you have to wait for it to get warm before the machine comes on-line ... see last paragraph http://www.angelfire.com/oh3/ebjoew/IBM_1620_Core_Memory.html Yes, many IBM machines used heaters to stabilize the core temperature. The 360/40 and 360/50 had heaters for the local store (register stack). Not sure about the 360/30 where local and main store were all in the same unit. Not sure if the higher machines also heated the main store. Jon
Re: IBM 1620
> [...] then in 1996 I built a laser photoplotter that cranks out > 1000x1000 DPI images on red-sensitive film at 0.6 inches/minute. I'd be very interested in anything you care to share about its design and building /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTMLmo...@rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
RE: IBM 1620
> -Original Message- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of ben > Sent: 31 August 2015 01:43 > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: IBM 1620 > > On 8/30/2015 6:32 PM, Tothwolf wrote: > > > On page 5, they describe 0.0031" 40 AWG magnet wire being reduced to > > 0.002" after soldering with 60/40 tin-lead solder. That 0.0011" > > reduction is basically 1/3 of the diameter of the wire. This explains > > the failures of the enamel wires in CHM's IBM 1620. > > > > Copper erosion from tin is something I'd never really given a lot of > > thought to, but it will certainly be something I keep in mind from now on. > > > But is that the case? Would not heat induced failure be the real case here as I > suspect that a amp or two of current is flowing that now very thin thread of > wire? Digging though the doc's and a little calculation clear this up. > Ben. > > I seem to remember that 1620 core runs warm, and you have to wait for it to get warm before the machine comes on-line ... see last paragraph http://www.angelfire.com/oh3/ebjoew/IBM_1620_Core_Memory.html Dave Wade
Re: IBM 1620
On 08/30/2015 05:16 PM, Tothwolf wrote: According to IBM's paper, extra cores were threaded initially and used to replace any cores that tested bad during assembly. Any extras were crushed after assembly to remove them. I suspect there were also extra rows after shipment as well. I seem to remember a magnet and a broomstick that got used to fish out remnants in the 7090 (oil bath) core units. --Chuck
Re: IBM 1620
On Sun, 30 Aug 2015, ben wrote: On 8/30/2015 6:32 PM, Tothwolf wrote: On page 5, they describe 0.0031" 40 AWG magnet wire being reduced to 0.002" after soldering with 60/40 tin-lead solder. That 0.0011" reduction is basically 1/3 of the diameter of the wire. This explains the failures of the enamel wires in CHM's IBM 1620. Copper erosion from tin is something I'd never really given a lot of thought to, but it will certainly be something I keep in mind from now on. But is that the case? Would not heat induced failure be the real case here as I suspect that a amp or two of current is flowing that now very thin thread of wire? Digging though the doc's and a little calculation clear this up. My guess is that over time the thinned wires broke due to a combination of vibration and thermal fatigue. Vibration while transporting the system to CHM may well have been what ultimately caused them to break.
Re: IBM 1620
On 8/30/2015 6:32 PM, Tothwolf wrote: On page 5, they describe 0.0031" 40 AWG magnet wire being reduced to 0.002" after soldering with 60/40 tin-lead solder. That 0.0011" reduction is basically 1/3 of the diameter of the wire. This explains the failures of the enamel wires in CHM's IBM 1620. Copper erosion from tin is something I'd never really given a lot of thought to, but it will certainly be something I keep in mind from now on. But is that the case? Would not heat induced failure be the real case here as I suspect that a amp or two of current is flowing that now very thin thread of wire? Digging though the doc's and a little calculation clear this up. Ben.
Re: IBM 1620
On Sun, 30 Aug 2015, Paul Koning wrote: On Aug 30, 2015, at 1:55 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: On 08/30/2015 09:47 AM, Tothwolf wrote: If repair of the core memory in CHM's IBM 1620 is ever attempted, I think either low-tin solder alloy with 1-2% added copper or possibly a more modern indium-lead solder alloy would probably be the best choice for the enamel wire to terminal connections since that would greatly reduce the likelihood of any future wire breakage. Wouldn't solderless bonding/welding be a better alternative? That's what the IBM IEEE article mentions. I'm still a bit puzzled by the dissolving of copper wire by conventional solder. The wire used in core memories is thin, but not outrageously so by the standards of, say, Litz wire, and that is soldered routinely. See the other paper I mentioned earlier in the thread: https://app.aws.org/wj/supplement/WJ_1975_10_s370.pdf On page 5, they describe 0.0031" 40 AWG magnet wire being reduced to 0.002" after soldering with 60/40 tin-lead solder. That 0.0011" reduction is basically 1/3 of the diameter of the wire. This explains the failures of the enamel wires in CHM's IBM 1620. Copper erosion from tin is something I'd never really given a lot of thought to, but it will certainly be something I keep in mind from now on.
Re: IBM 1620
On Sun, 30 Aug 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote: On 08/30/2015 09:47 AM, Tothwolf wrote: If repair of the core memory in CHM's IBM 1620 is ever attempted, I think either low-tin solder alloy with 1-2% added copper or possibly a more modern indium-lead solder alloy would probably be the best choice for the enamel wire to terminal connections since that would greatly reduce the likelihood of any future wire breakage. Wouldn't solderless bonding/welding be a better alternative? Yes, if the terminals had been designed for that. The terminals on these would have been designed for soldering, so unless you wanted to replace all the existing terminals, it would probably be best to stick to soldering. Either a low-tin + copper or non-tin solder really should solve the problem anyway.
Re: IBM 1620
On Sun, 30 Aug 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote: On 08/30/2015 11:15 AM, Paul Koning wrote: So there'd be what, 120,000 cores to thread? That might be a bit daunting from a human-hour standpoint. I'll wager that 120K cores wasn't even a day's output for outfits like Fabritek. Those cores weren't threaded one by one. You'd start by setting the cores into a holding jig, which positions them correctly. Then you thread wire from edge to edge. The article mentions a needle with the wire welded to its end; that makes sense because the copper wire is unlikely to be stiff enough. So the number of individual threading operations is 3-4x the square root of the core plane size. For example, on a 4k core plane, it would be 200 steps, give or take. (A bit more on a CDC 6000 series core plane with its peculiar 5 wire architecture.) I've seen the archival photos. Still, the possibility of missing or damaging a single core was always there. I wonder what the rejection rate was. I have heard of machine-fabricated core as well, but I thought that it only applied to larger, slower bulk core store. One can certainly understand why plated-wire or thin-film technologies were attractive. Sigh. Another lost manual art. I can remember during the 70s that the hot thing was to learn IC layout--the wives of a number of co-workers were going to night courses for that. According to IBM's paper, extra cores were threaded initially and used to replace any cores that tested bad during assembly. Any extras were crushed after assembly to remove them.
Re: IBM 1620
On 08/30/2015 03:04 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: PCB design was also a specialty, what with mylar film, tape, white-out and India ink and, of course, an X-acto knife. The best people at this seemed to be from the Far East. Done probably at 4X scale, then reduced for production. Yup, back in the 70's I did a bunch of PCB design using mylar and black crepe tape, and pre-made donuts and IC pads. UGH!!! I still have a bunch of those sitting in folders. I made my own reduction camera to bring the artwork down to 1:1 size. Then, in 1976 or so, I got my first CAD system, and printed everything out on plotters with India ink and Rapidograph pens on frosted Mylar. If the pen didn't clog up or run dry before the print was finished, it worked pretty well, and there were Litho houses that mostly did ad copy that would do the reduction for a couple $. I hacked a fiber optic light pen onto a Calcomp plotter and made some artwork directly onto film, and then in 1996 I built a laser photoplotter that cranks out 1000x1000 DPI images on red-sensitive film at 0.6 inches/minute. It can do up to 20 x 24" films, but I've never gone over about one foot square. The trick is, it has to be VERY accurate to line up with existing PC boards. I mostly use it to make solder paste stencils, now, but originally made it for PC board master artwork. Jon
Re: IBM 1620
On 08/30/2015 12:15 PM, Paul Koning wrote: Perhaps CDC's ECS? 125k (funny number that) words per memory bank. Possibly. We used a lot of it in SSD. 4MW installations were not uncommon, shared among 2-4 mainframes. As I recall, core errors were not treated the same way as CM--part of deadstart was "flawing" ECS and creating a map of flawed areas, much as one might do with a disk. It also had priority in CM access, so if you were doing a bunch of ECS transfers, you could see the DSD display dim and flicker. 1LT (long stranger tape driver) had conniptions with data underrun errors when ECS transfers were going on. I've never done that, though I have Carver Mead's textbook that describes how it is done. I did do a PC board layout with red and blue tape on a light table, in 1977. This was Silicon Valley, circa 1978 or so. A bunch of Intel people put together a training course (not Intel-sponsored) for people who wanted to learn IC design. PCB design was also a specialty, what with mylar film, tape, white-out and India ink and, of course, an X-acto knife. The best people at this seemed to be from the Far East. Done probably at 4X scale, then reduced for production. --Chuck
Re: IBM 1620
> On Aug 30, 2015, at 2:34 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > ... > I have heard of machine-fabricated core as well, but I thought that it only > applied to larger, slower bulk core store. One can certainly understand why > plated-wire or thin-film technologies were attractive. Perhaps CDC's ECS? 125k (funny number that) words per memory bank. > Sigh. Another lost manual art. I can remember during the 70s that the hot > thing was to learn IC layout--the wives of a number of co-workers were going > to night courses for that. I've never done that, though I have Carver Mead's textbook that describes how it is done. I did do a PC board layout with red and blue tape on a light table, in 1977. paul
Re: IBM 1620
On 08/30/2015 11:15 AM, Paul Koning wrote: So there'd be what, 120,000 cores to thread? That might be a bit daunting from a human-hour standpoint. I'll wager that 120K cores wasn't even a day's output for outfits like Fabritek. Those cores weren't threaded one by one. You'd start by setting the cores into a holding jig, which positions them correctly. Then you thread wire from edge to edge. The article mentions a needle with the wire welded to its end; that makes sense because the copper wire is unlikely to be stiff enough. So the number of individual threading operations is 3-4x the square root of the core plane size. For example, on a 4k core plane, it would be 200 steps, give or take. (A bit more on a CDC 6000 series core plane with its peculiar 5 wire architecture.) I've seen the archival photos. Still, the possibility of missing or damaging a single core was always there. I wonder what the rejection rate was. I have heard of machine-fabricated core as well, but I thought that it only applied to larger, slower bulk core store. One can certainly understand why plated-wire or thin-film technologies were attractive. Sigh. Another lost manual art. I can remember during the 70s that the hot thing was to learn IC layout--the wives of a number of co-workers were going to night courses for that. --Chuck
Re: IBM 1620
> On Aug 30, 2015, at 1:55 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 08/30/2015 09:47 AM, Tothwolf wrote: > >> If repair of the core memory in CHM's IBM 1620 is ever attempted, I >> think either low-tin solder alloy with 1-2% added copper or possibly >> a more modern indium-lead solder alloy would probably be the best >> choice for the enamel wire to terminal connections since that would >> greatly reduce the likelihood of any future wire breakage. > > Wouldn't solderless bonding/welding be a better alternative? That's what the IBM IEEE article mentions. I'm still a bit puzzled by the dissolving of copper wire by conventional solder. The wire used in core memories is thin, but not outrageously so by the standards of, say, Litz wire, and that is soldered routinely. > ... > So there'd be what, 120,000 cores to thread? That might be a bit daunting > from a human-hour standpoint. I'll wager that 120K cores wasn't even a day's > output for outfits like Fabritek. Those cores weren't threaded one by one. You'd start by setting the cores into a holding jig, which positions them correctly. Then you thread wire from edge to edge. The article mentions a needle with the wire welded to its end; that makes sense because the copper wire is unlikely to be stiff enough. So the number of individual threading operations is 3-4x the square root of the core plane size. For example, on a 4k core plane, it would be 200 steps, give or take. (A bit more on a CDC 6000 series core plane with its peculiar 5 wire architecture.) paul
Re: Area 51 - was Re: CDC-160 (was Re: IBM 1620)
I wrote: > Don't bother. There's nothing interesting in Area 51 any more; due to > all the publicity Area 51 has gotten, they've long since moved all the > good stuff to Area 52, which still has a low profile. On Sat, Aug 29, 2015 at 12:32 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > I know you're just being witty, but in fact it still seems quite active: > http://ur1.ca/nloay They have to keep doing something at least slightly interesting at Area 51 to maintain the cover, so everyone doesn't go looking for the real stuff at Area 52.
Re: IBM 1620
On 08/30/2015 09:47 AM, Tothwolf wrote: If repair of the core memory in CHM's IBM 1620 is ever attempted, I think either low-tin solder alloy with 1-2% added copper or possibly a more modern indium-lead solder alloy would probably be the best choice for the enamel wire to terminal connections since that would greatly reduce the likelihood of any future wire breakage. Wouldn't solderless bonding/welding be a better alternative? The excuse of "that's too small to work on" seems a bit peculiar-sounding, particularly from people who are used to working by hand fine-pitch QFPs with 0.050" lead centers (and smaller). In the range of core sizes, 1620 cores weren't particularly tiny, compared to, say, CDC 7600 SCM core. So there'd be what, 120,000 cores to thread? That might be a bit daunting from a human-hour standpoint. I'll wager that 120K cores wasn't even a day's output for outfits like Fabritek. --Chuck
Re: IBM 1620
> On Aug 30, 2015, at 9:28 AM, Dave G4UGM wrote: > >> ... >> Interesting. I remember learning about the processes DEC used. No fancy >> machines, just a flat plate jig with slots to hold the cores in their > correct >> position, and nimble-fingered Oriental ladies to thread the wire through > the >> core planes by hand. Seemed sensible to me; that is the process I was >> thinking about for this case. >> >> paul > > Surely DEC used machine threaded cores later on. There is a 16k (I think) > DEC board in the Museum of Science and Industry in Manchester that must be > machine woven as you can't see the individual cores without heavy > magnification... Perhaps. But I never heard of core threading machines until today. Just because you can't see the cores without magnifiers doesn't mean this couldn't be done by hand. It's amazing what trained hands can do. paul
RE: IBM 1620
On Sun, 30 Aug 2015, Dave G4UGM wrote: On Sat, 29 Aug 2015, Tothwolf wrote: IBM had special machines to position and thread them. http://ibm-1401.info/IBMCoreArraysIEEEMagnetics1969.pdf Thanks for posting that. Very interesting. Looking at it, the machines are extremely complex, but I am sure they could be reproduced, albeit at a probably prohibitive cost... .. I have marked for later reading... Something else I forgot to mention, is that on page 8 in that pdf file, they mention initially using 60/40 tin-lead alloy solder for the enamel wire to the core plane terminals. On page 9, they describe switching to 20/80 tin-lead so the solder would dissolve less copper from the enamel wire. If repair of the core memory in CHM's IBM 1620 is ever attempted, I think either low-tin solder alloy with 1-2% added copper or possibly a more modern indium-lead solder alloy would probably be the best choice for the enamel wire to terminal connections since that would greatly reduce the likelihood of any future wire breakage.
Re: IBM 1620
> On Aug 30, 2015, at 4:49 AM, Dave G4UGM wrote: > > ... >> IBM had special machines to >> position and thread them. >> http://ibm-1401.info/IBMCoreArraysIEEEMagnetics1969.pdf Interesting. I remember learning about the processes DEC used. No fancy machines, just a flat plate jig with slots to hold the cores in their correct position, and nimble-fingered Oriental ladies to thread the wire through the core planes by hand. Seemed sensible to me; that is the process I was thinking about for this case. paul
RE: IBM 1620
-Original Message- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tothwolf > Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2015 1:57 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: IBM 1620 > > On Sat, 29 Aug 2015, Paul Koning wrote: > > On Aug 29, 2015, at 12:36 AM, Lyle Bickley > wrote: > > > >> I was not on the Team that did the memory analysis and the ultimate > >> "modern" replacement memory. However, when I joined the Team, I > asked > >> similar questions and was told that the core memory was literally > >> "falling apart" and was not repairable. > > > > I sure have a hard time fathoming any of this. > > > > Quite apart from the obvious one of building a pin-compatible modern > > memory, another answer comes to mind. If a core plane has come apart, > > the cores could be recovered and restrung. That requires patience and > > dexterity, but it should be doable. It also requires a device to hold > > the cores correctly for threading; something like that could easily be > > made in a a 3d printer. > > Those particular cores are quite small and I'm not sure a 3d printer would be > able to print a jig with the tolerances required. Perhaps a consumer 3-D printer wouldn't, but there are higher precision printers out there that will print to a high accuracy. Also not that 3-D printing with filament is just a small part of a wide range of techniques available. There are several processes:- http://3dprintingindustry.com/3d-printing-basics-free-beginners-guide/proces ses/ some of which are not available to the Amateur because of cost (especially un-expired patents) or just too complex... There are also subtractive manufacturing methods such as laser cutting/etching and CNC milling which could be more suitable for building a core jig .. Most of the FabLabs will have one of these available http://www.rolanddg.com/product/3d/3d/mdx-20_15/application.html and a laser cutter >IBM had special machines to > position and thread them. > http://ibm-1401.info/IBMCoreArraysIEEEMagnetics1969.pdf > Thanks for posting that. Very interesting. Looking at it, the machines are extremely complex, but I am sure they could be reproduced, albeit at a probably prohibitive cost... .. I have marked for later reading... > I can certainly understand why repair wasn't initially attempted, however > that doesn't mean it is impossible. Given the rarity of the system, welding > new stubs of wire to the original enamel wire or completely rebuilding the > core planes with all new wire might still well be a worthwhile project at some > point in the future. It might even be possible to keep most of the cores in > position and rethread just one portion (X, Y, > sense/inhibit) at a time. > > Another plus is that because of the way the wires are threaded, it is unlikely > that any of the cores have been lost, even if a large number of wires have > broken at the terminals. Dave Wade G4UGM
Re: IBM 1620
On Sat, 29 Aug 2015, Paul Koning wrote: On Aug 29, 2015, at 12:36 AM, Lyle Bickley wrote: I was not on the Team that did the memory analysis and the ultimate "modern" replacement memory. However, when I joined the Team, I asked similar questions and was told that the core memory was literally "falling apart" and was not repairable. I sure have a hard time fathoming any of this. Quite apart from the obvious one of building a pin-compatible modern memory, another answer comes to mind. If a core plane has come apart, the cores could be recovered and restrung. That requires patience and dexterity, but it should be doable. It also requires a device to hold the cores correctly for threading; something like that could easily be made in a a 3d printer. Those particular cores are quite small and I'm not sure a 3d printer would be able to print a jig with the tolerances required. IBM had special machines to position and thread them. http://ibm-1401.info/IBMCoreArraysIEEEMagnetics1969.pdf I can certainly understand why repair wasn't initially attempted, however that doesn't mean it is impossible. Given the rarity of the system, welding new stubs of wire to the original enamel wire or completely rebuilding the core planes with all new wire might still well be a worthwhile project at some point in the future. It might even be possible to keep most of the cores in position and rethread just one portion (X, Y, sense/inhibit) at a time. Another plus is that because of the way the wires are threaded, it is unlikely that any of the cores have been lost, even if a large number of wires have broken at the terminals.
Re: IBM 1620
> On Aug 29, 2015, at 12:36 AM, Lyle Bickley wrote: > >> ... > > I was not on the Team that did the memory analysis and the ultimate > "modern" replacement memory. However, when I joined the Team, I asked > similar questions and was told that the core memory was literally > "falling apart" and was not repairable. I sure have a hard time fathoming any of this. Quite apart from the obvious one of building a pin-compatible modern memory, another answer comes to mind. If a core plane has come apart, the cores could be recovered and restrung. That requires patience and dexterity, but it should be doable. It also requires a device to hold the cores correctly for threading; something like that could easily be made in a a 3d printer. paul
Area 51 - was Re: CDC-160 (was Re: IBM 1620)
On 2015-08-28 9:49 PM, Eric Smith wrote: On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 4:57 PM, ben wrote: Just the US goverment in general. Try area 51 next. Don't bother. There's nothing interesting in Area 51 any more; due to all the publicity Area 51 has gotten, they've long since moved all the good stuff to Area 52, which still has a low profile. I know you're just being witty, but in fact it still seems quite active: http://ur1.ca/nloay --Toby
Re: IBM 1620
On Fri, 28 Aug 2015, Lyle Bickley wrote: On Fri, 28 Aug 2015 20:31:16 -0500 (CDT) Tothwolf wrote: I think I've answered my own question today while looking at a datasheet for another type of solder. My guess is that the solder they used did not contain any copper, and the tin in the solder IBM used dissolved small amounts of the already very tiny copper wires, creating a weak point where the wires were soldered to the terminals. Lyle, was there any discussion of possibly laser welding replacement stubs of wire before the breaks that could then be re-soldered to the terminals? That would seem to be a viable repair option, although it would require special equipment. I was not on the Team that did the memory analysis and the ultimate "modern" replacement memory. However, when I joined the Team, I asked similar questions and was told that the core memory was literally "falling apart" and was not repairable. So the core mats were more or less dangling? Still, I would think they would be repairable, but it would be a major undertaking since there would probably be 1000s of tiny stubs of wire to weld in (every single connection, basically). All of those enamel wire terminations would then also need to be soldered to the terminals with either a low-tin or copper containing alloy of solder too. I also can't help but wonder what other systems which use core memory might suffer from this type of failure as they continue to age. Any chance someone on the team took some photos of the core memory? I didn't see any on CHM's IBM 1620 webpage. http://www.computerhistory.org/projects/ibm_1620/ibm1620/ For those interested, here is a paper Google turned up which explains the problem: Lead Alloys for High Temperature Soldering of Magnet Wire https://app.aws.org/wj/supplement/WJ_1975_10_s370.pdf
Re: IBM 1620 / IBM 1401.
Here in Australia, the Australian Computer Museum Society has an IBM 1401 - just the big CPU unit. We know of an IBM 1620 CPU unit in Computer Sciences at the University of NSW. I worked on a 1620 in the 1960s - and thought that it was 'magic'. Sadly, we don't have enough sponsors to put either on public display. Regards,John GEREMIN, ASTC, Honorary Curator, www.acms.org.au
Re: IBM 1620
On Fri, 28 Aug 2015 20:31:16 -0500 (CDT) Tothwolf wrote: > On Fri, 28 Aug 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 08/28/2015 07:42 AM, Tothwolf wrote: > > > >> With all the different solder alloys I work with regularly, I have > >> to ask...what type of solder caused that sort of damage? Was it > >> the alloy itself, or did IBM use a flux which was too active and > >> then failed to clean away all the residue? If they used a > >> rosin-based flux, was it due to the specific activator used in the > >> flux? > > > > That's actually a little puzzling. 1401 core frames have survived > > well (got one in my desk drawer). You'd expect that the same > > process would be used for equipment that's pretty close to > > contemporary. > > I think I've answered my own question today while looking at a > datasheet for another type of solder. My guess is that the solder > they used did not contain any copper, and the tin in the solder IBM > used dissolved small amounts of the already very tiny copper wires, > creating a weak point where the wires were soldered to the terminals. > > Lyle, was there any discussion of possibly laser welding replacement > stubs of wire before the breaks that could then be re-soldered to the > terminals? That would seem to be a viable repair option, although it > would require special equipment. I was not on the Team that did the memory analysis and the ultimate "modern" replacement memory. However, when I joined the Team, I asked similar questions and was told that the core memory was literally "falling apart" and was not repairable. Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"
Re: CDC-160 (was Re: IBM 1620)
On Fri, 28 Aug 2015, ben wrote: On 8/28/2015 3:17 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: I expect that Ben's posting was a joke directed at the IRS. Just the US goverment in general. Try area 51 next. The 1980's was the last use I suspect of the 1965's machines. The military used 1950's machines into the '80s. E.g. the IBM-built AN/FSQ-7 computers for SAGE became operational starting in 1957, and some stayed on the job until 1983. Mike Loewen mloe...@cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/
Re: CDC-160 (was Re: IBM 1620)
On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 4:57 PM, ben wrote: > Just the US goverment in general. Try area 51 next. Don't bother. There's nothing interesting in Area 51 any more; due to all the publicity Area 51 has gotten, they've long since moved all the good stuff to Area 52, which still has a low profile.
Re: IBM 1620
On Fri, 28 Aug 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote: On 08/28/2015 07:42 AM, Tothwolf wrote: With all the different solder alloys I work with regularly, I have to ask...what type of solder caused that sort of damage? Was it the alloy itself, or did IBM use a flux which was too active and then failed to clean away all the residue? If they used a rosin-based flux, was it due to the specific activator used in the flux? That's actually a little puzzling. 1401 core frames have survived well (got one in my desk drawer). You'd expect that the same process would be used for equipment that's pretty close to contemporary. I think I've answered my own question today while looking at a datasheet for another type of solder. My guess is that the solder they used did not contain any copper, and the tin in the solder IBM used dissolved small amounts of the already very tiny copper wires, creating a weak point where the wires were soldered to the terminals. Lyle, was there any discussion of possibly laser welding replacement stubs of wire before the breaks that could then be re-soldered to the terminals? That would seem to be a viable repair option, although it would require special equipment.
Re: CDC-160 (was Re: IBM 1620)
On Fri, 28 Aug 2015, ben wrote: Just the US goverment in general. Try area 51 next. There are lots of 1620s there. Many have seriously upgraded RAM and storage, to run Linux, Windoze 12, and Apple System 11. They have interplanetary WiFi.
Re: CDC-160 (was Re: IBM 1620)
On 8/28/2015 3:17 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: I expect that Ben's posting was a joke directed at the IRS. Just the US goverment in general. Try area 51 next. The 1980's was the last use I suspect of the 1965's machines. So if you want a vintage computer, the last finds are about 15 years later from the introduction. Ben.
Re: CDC-160 (was Re: IBM 1620)
On 8/28/2015 2:00 PM, Kevin Tikker wrote: > Which government agency? > > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Aug 28, 2015, at 5:15 AM, ben wrote: >> >>> On 8/28/2015 3:14 AM, P Gebhardt wrote: >> We all KNOW the government people still have one running >> for your tax . After all the bribes and shady dealings >> it gets turned on twice a year. Too old to have the Y2000 bug. >> Ben. >> >> >> I expect that Ben's posting was a joke directed at the IRS.
Re: IBM 1620
On Fri, 28 Aug 2015, Kevin Tikker wrote: I attended Vista at both locations the main building and the basement of the former Ross store. The new building was a mess, half finished, poorly designed and with the video studio poorly built. It is now a mess, half finished (unwired handicap door buttons, etc.), and poorly designed. The signs for ALS, and amplified and TTY phones were put up, but there is not a single public telephone in the building. One of the entrances to the library was mis-prepped as an exit and can not be locked, and "it is impossible to get the plans changed to allow fixing it". Thanks for the info on the 1620. Petals is such a vast organization it's entirely possible some 1620 lurks in some dark, dank unfinished space. Not within Peralta. Corporate culture of destruction and erasing of the past. We retrieved some stuff from the dark, dank tunnels at Merritt (and they tried to fire one guy for dumpster diving) Laney is too obsessed with throwing things away and changing, just for the sake of changing. Guarded dumpsters, cleared often. Couldn't save some "broken" (needed toner cartridge) almost current LaserJets. Did save (for the CIS department) a projector that needed its signal cord repaired - almost got fired for soldering a DE15, in a well-ventilated non-flammable workroom; if I hadn't been there that day, it would have been scrapped. College Of Alameda was built without adequate dark storage. Last of the 5170s is long gone. Nothing bigger nor more interesting than generic PCs (primarily HPaq) were ever moved into the BCC spaces. No word on the DisplayWriters that used to be in the Milvia building. The other space was temporary lease, now gone; long before it was a Ross and later Walgreen's, it was a JCPenney's. District Office has occasionally had a few interesting things, but not any more. Used to be a 4381? there. There ARE some interesting things in dark, dank storage spaces in UC. CCSF used to have some interesting stuff, such as Honeywell "mainframe". But, has recently had VERY thorough clearing out due to the Barbara Beno (accreditation Commission) pressure. Heard that some folk at DeAnza/Foothill squirreled away some goodies. Don't know the current state of stuff at Contra Costa Colleges nor SF State. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
Re: CDC-160 (was Re: IBM 1620)
Which government agency? Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 28, 2015, at 5:15 AM, ben wrote: > >> On 8/28/2015 3:14 AM, P Gebhardt wrote: > We all KNOW the government people still have one running > for your tax . After all the bribes and shady dealings > it gets turned on twice a year. Too old to have the Y2000 bug. > Ben. > > > > >
Re: IBM 1620
I attended Vista at both locations the main building and the basement of the former Ross store. The new building was a mess, half finished, poorly designed and with the video studio poorly built. Thanks for the info on the 1620. Petals is such a vast organization it's entirely possible some 1620 lurks in some dark, dank unfinished space. Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 28, 2015, at 11:05 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> On Thu, 27 Aug 2015, Kevin Tikker wrote: >> I went to both Laney and Berkeley City College so you may have a clue. >> Thank you > > If you actually want to follow-up on such tenuous leads, . . . > Wil Price would know what happened to the 1620 and 1401. So would Ben > Micallef and Jack Olson, but they're dead. > > I guess that it may have been in the move up onto the hill in 1972? that > Merritt switched to DEC. Reliability of the PDP suffered from a bad disk > drive, so it was replaced in 1983 with a few RJE terminals and a lot of 5150s. > > In 1983, the PDP with drive that never worked reliably, was sold to Richmond > schools (to pay for 5150s). PG&E didn't fully understand the difference > between Delta and Y three-phase. But, in exchange for going along with lie > that it "was struck by lightning during installation" (no other lightning > strikes within miles for 100 years), PG&E magnanimously (with tax break) > bought Richmond schools a new one. > > Some of the 026 punches and EAM equipment was in the back hallways of Merritt > until 1980s. I did not have storage space to save anything, and they tried > to fire the guy who pulled the other PDP from the dumpster. > > I don't know what Laney was using. Berkeley City College didn't exist at > that time; it was established later and was known as Vista College until > 2006, when it finally got its own building (on Center Street, instead of > Milvia). > > We suggested a delay in the name change from Vista to BCC with both names in > use: > 1) like a restaurant or retail establishment, a name change simultaneous with > a move might save on stationery (which as expected, they didn't replace right > away anyway) , but in terms of public, it is more like closing down and a new > one opening. THAT was borne out by enrollments. > 2) release of Windoze Vista. Our most heavily populated classes were job > training for the digital sweatshop, and we could have advertised, "Vista is > the best place to learn Vista!" > > I taught programming in all campuses of Peralta (Merritt, Laney, College Of > Alameda, Vista/BCC) from 1981 - 2013. My pension is handled by the state > (secure unless Mew Whitman gets elected), but my health benefits are run by > Peralta, so kinda risky. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com > >
Re: IBM 1620
On Thu, 27 Aug 2015, Kevin Tikker wrote: I went to both Laney and Berkeley City College so you may have a clue. Thank you If you actually want to follow-up on such tenuous leads, . . . Wil Price would know what happened to the 1620 and 1401. So would Ben Micallef and Jack Olson, but they're dead. I guess that it may have been in the move up onto the hill in 1972? that Merritt switched to DEC. Reliability of the PDP suffered from a bad disk drive, so it was replaced in 1983 with a few RJE terminals and a lot of 5150s. In 1983, the PDP with drive that never worked reliably, was sold to Richmond schools (to pay for 5150s). PG&E didn't fully understand the difference between Delta and Y three-phase. But, in exchange for going along with lie that it "was struck by lightning during installation" (no other lightning strikes within miles for 100 years), PG&E magnanimously (with tax break) bought Richmond schools a new one. Some of the 026 punches and EAM equipment was in the back hallways of Merritt until 1980s. I did not have storage space to save anything, and they tried to fire the guy who pulled the other PDP from the dumpster. I don't know what Laney was using. Berkeley City College didn't exist at that time; it was established later and was known as Vista College until 2006, when it finally got its own building (on Center Street, instead of Milvia). We suggested a delay in the name change from Vista to BCC with both names in use: 1) like a restaurant or retail establishment, a name change simultaneous with a move might save on stationery (which as expected, they didn't replace right away anyway) , but in terms of public, it is more like closing down and a new one opening. THAT was borne out by enrollments. 2) release of Windoze Vista. Our most heavily populated classes were job training for the digital sweatshop, and we could have advertised, "Vista is the best place to learn Vista!" I taught programming in all campuses of Peralta (Merritt, Laney, College Of Alameda, Vista/BCC) from 1981 - 2013. My pension is handled by the state (secure unless Mew Whitman gets elected), but my health benefits are run by Peralta, so kinda risky. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
Re: IBM 1620
On 08/28/2015 05:59 AM, Paul Koning wrote: Especially if you didn't have the "direct seek" option. I had a one-card program that would do for (i=0; i<100; i++) seek_cylinder(i). That doesn't step track to track as you would expect; instead, it goes from track n to 0 to n+1, resulting in progressively wilder and slower seeks as n increases. Yup, the one I worked with did not have the "direct seek option". What was interesting from a historical standpoint was the way in which the 1311 was used by Monitor II-D. IIRC, the first 25 cylinders were dubbed "work cylinders" with no formal filesystem. The remainder was used for more-or-less permanent storage of programs--not so much as a data store. The CADET I worked on did have the Indirect Addressing feature, which I believe was required to run Monitor II-D. Hard today to think of an addressing mode as an optional ($$$) feature. The Model II had an index register. I can still remember many of the 1620 numeric opcodes. Strange, considering that I can't remember where I put my keys or what I had for breakfast... --Chuck
Re: IBM 1620
On 08/28/2015 07:42 AM, Tothwolf wrote: With all the different solder alloys I work with regularly, I have to ask...what type of solder caused that sort of damage? Was it the alloy itself, or did IBM use a flux which was too active and then failed to clean away all the residue? If they used a rosin-based flux, was it due to the specific activator used in the flux? That's actually a little puzzling. 1401 core frames have survived well (got one in my desk drawer). You'd expect that the same process would be used for equipment that's pretty close to contemporary. --Chuck
Re: CDC-160 (was Re: IBM 1620)
Cool. Wonder what it will go for. JRJ On 8/28/2015 4:14 AM, P Gebhardt wrote: > > > > >> >> (Rumor was that there was also a CDC-160A in somebody's basement here in >> town, as well). >> > > > Speaking of which: > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Control-Data-160-Computer-System-Vintage-Computer-/252070822992?hash=item3ab0978450 > > > Maybe it's the one from that basement :) > > > Cheers, > Pierre > > --- > > Pierre's collection of classic computers moved to: > http://www.digitalheritage.de >
Re: IBM 1620
On Thu, 27 Aug 2015, Lyle Bickley wrote: The IBM 1620 at the CHM is a running computer. There were two teams that worked on the 1620 at the CHM. The first Team got it running. Unfortunately, IBM used the wrong kind of solder on the core memory and so the wires of the core memory literally "dissolved". With all the different solder alloys I work with regularly, I have to ask...what type of solder caused that sort of damage? Was it the alloy itself, or did IBM use a flux which was too active and then failed to clean away all the residue? If they used a rosin-based flux, was it due to the specific activator used in the flux?
Re: IBM 1620
> On Aug 28, 2015, at 1:30 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > ... > Well, other than the Model I (CADET) typewriter acting as if it were going to > fly apart at any time, the 1311 disk drive was fun to watch. Especially if you didn't have the "direct seek" option. I had a one-card program that would do for (i=0; i<100; i++) seek_cylinder(i). That doesn't step track to track as you would expect; instead, it goes from track n to 0 to n+1, resulting in progressively wilder and slower seeks as n increases. paul
Re: CDC-160 (was Re: IBM 1620)
On 8/28/2015 3:14 AM, P Gebhardt wrote: We all KNOW the government people still have one running for your tax . After all the bribes and shady dealings it gets turned on twice a year. Too old to have the Y2000 bug. Ben.
CDC-160 (was Re: IBM 1620)
> > (Rumor was that there was also a CDC-160A in somebody's basement here in > town, as well). > Speaking of which: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Control-Data-160-Computer-System-Vintage-Computer-/252070822992?hash=item3ab0978450 Maybe it's the one from that basement :) Cheers, Pierre --- Pierre's collection of classic computers moved to: http://www.digitalheritage.de
RE: IBM 1620
Many 1620's were leased and IBM recovered them at the end of the lease. There is a note somewhere I have seen about the one at Lancaster University have a disk drive replaced and then returned to IBM within weeks... .. on the other had I know the one at Newcastle Polytechnic hung around for at least a year. I wonder what happened to the one at Constantine College (later Teeside Polytechnic, and now Teesside University) which ran my first Fortran Program... Dave > -Original Message- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jay Jaeger > Sent: 28 August 2015 03:41 > To: cctalk@classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: IBM 1620 > > On 8/27/2015 9:18 PM, Kevin Tikker wrote: > > > Thanks very much for the link. Maybe there is one out there > > > > There were two IBM 1620's in the College of Engineering in Madison, WI > when I started school, and rumor was that one of them ended up in > somebody's basement. Whether or not that rumor was true, and if so, if it is > still around, or not, I have no idea. > > (Rumor was that there was also a CDC-160A in somebody's basement here in > town, as well). > > Both of these rumors date back 30+ years, though. > > JRJ
Re: IBM 1620
On 08/27/2015 10:08 PM, Lyle Bickley wrote: Many of us on the 1620 Team were also on other restoration Teams - and As time progressed, it became clear that the IBM 1620, while a running computer, was not as demonstrable as the other systems. That - and many of us simply ran out of time working on it. So our running IBM 1620 ended up in our storage facility rather than as a public CHM demo system. It is entirely possible that at a future date it will again become a public demonstration system.. Well, other than the Model I (CADET) typewriter acting as if it were going to fly apart at any time, the 1311 disk drive was fun to watch. The 1622, not so much--if you've seen one card reader/punch, you've seen them all. What I remember the most is that as the punch heated up, it'd start throwing verify errors like crazy. Life in the slow lane... --Chuck
Re: IBM 1620
Great series of books the film was based on Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 27, 2015, at 9:28 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 08/27/2015 09:02 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: There were two IBM 1620's in the College of Engineering in Madison, WI >>> On Thu, 27 Aug 2015, Kevin Tikker wrote: >>> A possible lead? >> >> There was one at Merritt College in Oakland during the days when the >> Black Panthers started out there. > > ...and let's not forget all of the 1620 panels that were used in the film > "The Forbin Project"... > > --Chuck
Re: IBM 1620
On Thu, 27 Aug 2015 14:28:30 -0500 Ben Sinclair wrote: > The CHM has a bit of information, and links to three other 1620's that > they know about: > http://www.computerhistory.org/projects/ibm_1620/ibm1620/ > > From what I've been reading, there may be only one operational 1620 > right now, but the CHM is also trying to restore one. The IBM 1620 at the CHM is a running computer. There were two teams that worked on the 1620 at the CHM. The first Team got it running. Unfortunately, IBM used the wrong kind of solder on the core memory and so the wires of the core memory literally "dissolved". Modern memory was used to replace the original core memory and an interface to a PC was created and used to emulate peripheral devices. It ran as a demo system for several years when the CHM was in its public "Visible Storage" phase. A second Team - of which I was a member - worked to enhance the 1620's peripheral device interfaces and ultimately create new controllers for such devices as an IBM plotter. We also were trying to come up with demos that would make the IBM 1620 interesting to the general public (and not just techies or folks who had an emotional connection with the 1620). At the same time, the CHM was also working to complete its IBM-1401 restoration (including many pieces of Unit Record gear) - and IBM 1401, DEC PDP-1 and Babbage public demos Many of us on the 1620 Team were also on other restoration Teams - and As time progressed, it became clear that the IBM 1620, while a running computer, was not as demonstrable as the other systems. That - and many of us simply ran out of time working on it. So our running IBM 1620 ended up in our storage facility rather than as a public CHM demo system. It is entirely possible that at a future date it will again become a public demonstration system.. Cheers, Lyle > On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 2:07 PM, Dave G4UGM wrote: > > > > > >> -Original Message- > >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of william > >> degnan > >> Sent: 27 August 2015 20:00 > >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >> > >> Subject: Re: IBM 1620 > >> > >> How many exist on Earth at this point? > > > > > > Three or four perhaps? Rare and Valuable perhaps > > > >> > >> On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 1:56 PM, ben wrote: > >> > On 8/27/2015 2:46 AM, Kevin Tikker wrote: > >> >> > >> >> Looking for an IBM 1620 to purchase. Any leads greatly appreciate. > >> >> > >> >> Kevin Tikker > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Sent from my iPhone > >> > > >> > > >> > Sending from a Telephone, would have worked when they were shiny and > >> > new. Good luck Digging for one. > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Bill > >> vintagecomputer.net > > > > > -- 73 AF6WS Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"
Re: IBM 1620
I went to both Laney and Berkeley City College so you may have a clue. Thank you Kevin Sent from my iPhone On Aug 27, 2015, at 9:02 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> There were two IBM 1620's in the College of Engineering in Madison, WI >> On Thu, 27 Aug 2015, Kevin Tikker wrote: >> >> A possible lead? > > There was one at Merritt College in Oakland during the days when the Black > Panthers started out there. > > If you make a list of every one that there was, you're still not likely to > track one down. > But, have fun trying. > > > > >
Re: IBM 1620
On 08/27/2015 09:02 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: There were two IBM 1620's in the College of Engineering in Madison, WI On Thu, 27 Aug 2015, Kevin Tikker wrote: A possible lead? There was one at Merritt College in Oakland during the days when the Black Panthers started out there. ...and let's not forget all of the 1620 panels that were used in the film "The Forbin Project"... --Chuck
Re: IBM 1620
There were two IBM 1620's in the College of Engineering in Madison, WI On Thu, 27 Aug 2015, Kevin Tikker wrote: A possible lead? There was one at Merritt College in Oakland during the days when the Black Panthers started out there. If you make a list of every one that there was, you're still not likely to track one down. But, have fun trying.
Re: IBM 1620
On 08/27/2015 09:18 PM, Kevin Tikker wrote: Thanks very much for the link. Maybe there is one out there I believe Lewis and Clark College in Godfrey, IL had a 1620 that I saw in about 1980. I have no idea if anyone in the area still has it. Jon
Re: IBM 1620
A possible lead? Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 27, 2015, at 7:41 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > >> On 8/27/2015 9:18 PM, Kevin Tikker wrote: >> >> Thanks very much for the link. Maybe there is one out there > > There were two IBM 1620's in the College of Engineering in Madison, WI > when I started school, and rumor was that one of them ended up in > somebody's basement. Whether or not that rumor was true, and if so, if > it is still around, or not, I have no idea. > > (Rumor was that there was also a CDC-160A in somebody's basement here in > town, as well). > > Both of these rumors date back 30+ years, though. > > JRJ >
Re: IBM 1620
On 8/27/2015 9:18 PM, Kevin Tikker wrote: > Thanks very much for the link. Maybe there is one out there > There were two IBM 1620's in the College of Engineering in Madison, WI when I started school, and rumor was that one of them ended up in somebody's basement. Whether or not that rumor was true, and if so, if it is still around, or not, I have no idea. (Rumor was that there was also a CDC-160A in somebody's basement here in town, as well). Both of these rumors date back 30+ years, though. JRJ
Re: IBM 1620
Thanks very much for the link. Maybe there is one out there Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 27, 2015, at 12:28 PM, Ben Sinclair wrote: > > The CHM has a bit of information, and links to three other 1620's that > they know about: > http://www.computerhistory.org/projects/ibm_1620/ibm1620/ > > From what I've been reading, there may be only one operational 1620 > right now, but the CHM is also trying to restore one. > > > >> On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 2:07 PM, Dave G4UGM wrote: >> >> >>> -Original Message- >>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of william >>> degnan >>> Sent: 27 August 2015 20:00 >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>> >>> Subject: Re: IBM 1620 >>> >>> How many exist on Earth at this point? >> >> >> Three or four perhaps? Rare and Valuable perhaps >> >>> >>>> On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 1:56 PM, ben wrote: >>>>> On 8/27/2015 2:46 AM, Kevin Tikker wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Looking for an IBM 1620 to purchase. Any leads greatly appreciate. >>>>> >>>>> Kevin Tikker >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> >>>> Sending from a Telephone, would have worked when they were shiny and >>>> new. Good luck Digging for one. >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Bill >>> vintagecomputer.net > > > > -- > Ben Sinclair > b...@bensinclair.com
Re: IBM 1620
heh...well I didn't say it was a *good* chance, but one can always hope... On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 5:54 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > On 8/27/2015 3:49 PM, william degnan wrote: > > > I'd like a 1620 too please. .. or a 1710 if I have to settle. > > > > In all seriousness I may not have the machines but I do have a lot of > > 1401/1620/1710 docs on hand in my little private library here in > > Landenberg, should anyone be passing this way. For now I have to settle > > for that. > > > > I'll bet a case of beer that there is an old IBM or UNIVAC languishing > out > > there in a Cuban office building basement ... somewhere. * That would be > > the best bet as to where you can find a 1620.* > > > > b > > > > Nah. Probably sent them all to Russia to be reverse engineered - two > generations too late. ;) But one might find a Russian 360 clone > floating around Cuba, I suppose. > > JRJ > -- Bill vintagecomputer.net
Re: IBM 1620
On 8/27/2015 3:49 PM, william degnan wrote: > I'd like a 1620 too please. .. or a 1710 if I have to settle. > > In all seriousness I may not have the machines but I do have a lot of > 1401/1620/1710 docs on hand in my little private library here in > Landenberg, should anyone be passing this way. For now I have to settle > for that. > > I'll bet a case of beer that there is an old IBM or UNIVAC languishing out > there in a Cuban office building basement ... somewhere. * That would be > the best bet as to where you can find a 1620.* > > b > Nah. Probably sent them all to Russia to be reverse engineered - two generations too late. ;) But one might find a Russian 360 clone floating around Cuba, I suppose. JRJ
Re: IBM 1620
I'd like a 1620 too please. .. or a 1710 if I have to settle. In all seriousness I may not have the machines but I do have a lot of 1401/1620/1710 docs on hand in my little private library here in Landenberg, should anyone be passing this way. For now I have to settle for that. I'll bet a case of beer that there is an old IBM or UNIVAC languishing out there in a Cuban office building basement ... somewhere. * That would be the best bet as to where you can find a 1620.* b On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 4:42 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > On 8/27/2015 3:46 AM, Kevin Tikker wrote: > > > Looking for an IBM 1620 to purchase. Any leads greatly appreciate. > > > > Kevin Tikker > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > And, if you find one, as if they have an IBM 1410, while you are at it. > (As far as I know, NONE of those exist, unless IBM has one squirreled > away somewhere). > > JRJ > -- Bill vintagecomputer.net
Re: IBM 1620
On 8/27/2015 3:46 AM, Kevin Tikker wrote: > Looking for an IBM 1620 to purchase. Any leads greatly appreciate. > > Kevin Tikker > > > Sent from my iPhone > And, if you find one, as if they have an IBM 1410, while you are at it. (As far as I know, NONE of those exist, unless IBM has one squirreled away somewhere). JRJ
Re: IBM 1620
The CHM has a bit of information, and links to three other 1620's that they know about: http://www.computerhistory.org/projects/ibm_1620/ibm1620/ >From what I've been reading, there may be only one operational 1620 right now, but the CHM is also trying to restore one. On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 2:07 PM, Dave G4UGM wrote: > > >> -Original Message- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of william >> degnan >> Sent: 27 August 2015 20:00 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> >> Subject: Re: IBM 1620 >> >> How many exist on Earth at this point? > > > Three or four perhaps? Rare and Valuable perhaps > >> >> On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 1:56 PM, ben wrote: >> > On 8/27/2015 2:46 AM, Kevin Tikker wrote: >> >> >> >> Looking for an IBM 1620 to purchase. Any leads greatly appreciate. >> >> >> >> Kevin Tikker >> >> >> >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> > >> > >> > Sending from a Telephone, would have worked when they were shiny and >> > new. Good luck Digging for one. >> > >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> Bill >> vintagecomputer.net > -- Ben Sinclair b...@bensinclair.com
RE: IBM 1620
> -Original Message- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of william > degnan > Sent: 27 August 2015 20:00 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: IBM 1620 > > How many exist on Earth at this point? Three or four perhaps? Rare and Valuable perhaps > > On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 1:56 PM, ben wrote: > > On 8/27/2015 2:46 AM, Kevin Tikker wrote: > >> > >> Looking for an IBM 1620 to purchase. Any leads greatly appreciate. > >> > >> Kevin Tikker > >> > >> > >> Sent from my iPhone > > > > > > Sending from a Telephone, would have worked when they were shiny and > > new. Good luck Digging for one. > > > > > > > > -- > Bill > vintagecomputer.net
Re: IBM 1620
How many exist on Earth at this point? On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 1:56 PM, ben wrote: > On 8/27/2015 2:46 AM, Kevin Tikker wrote: >> >> Looking for an IBM 1620 to purchase. Any leads greatly appreciate. >> >> Kevin Tikker >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone > > > Sending from a Telephone, would have worked when they were shiny and > new. Good luck Digging for one. > > -- Bill vintagecomputer.net
Re: IBM 1620
On 8/27/2015 2:46 AM, Kevin Tikker wrote: Looking for an IBM 1620 to purchase. Any leads greatly appreciate. Kevin Tikker Sent from my iPhone Sending from a Telephone, would have worked when they were shiny and new. Good luck Digging for one.
