[cctalk] Re: IBM 1620 Model 2 software wanted

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 8/28/23 16:56, Dave Babcock via cctalk wrote:
> Chuck,
> 
> Yes, I mean Monitor II-D.
> 
> No, CHM does not have a working 1311 drive.  The need for Monitor II-D
> is for the IBM 1620 Model 2 simulators being written. Monitor I does not
> run correctly on a 1620 Model 2 when index registers are enabled and
> used by a program.

My recollection was that Monitor II-D was about a tray of cards to load
onto a 1311.  It would be quite the tour de force if someone managed to
keep all those cards around.

Never had the pleasure of running a Model 2.  All my experience was on
CADETs with options needed for Monitor II-D (and SPS and FORTRAN).

--Chuck

[cctalk] Re: IBM 1620 Model 2 software wanted

[Dave Babcock via cctalk]

Chuck,

Yes, I mean Monitor II-D.

No, CHM does not have a working 1311 drive.  The need for Monitor II-D 
is for the IBM 1620 Model 2 simulators being written. Monitor I does not 
run correctly on a 1620 Model 2 when index registers are enabled and 
used by a program.


Dave


On 8/28/2023 3:48 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

On 8/28/23 13:54, Dave Babcock via cctalk wrote:

To all,
What they need, and CHM would be very interested in adding to its IBM
1620 collection, is original software specifically for the IBM 1620
Model 2.  Of particular interest are the IBM 1620 Monitor II and IBM
1620-2 diagnostics, but any Model 2 software would be helpful to their
efforts.

Just curious--do you mean Monitor II-D?  Does CHM have a working 1311
drive hooked to that CADET?

--Chuck

[cctalk] Re: IBM 1620 Model 2 software wanted

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 8/28/23 13:54, Dave Babcock via cctalk wrote:
> To all,

> What they need, and CHM would be very interested in adding to its IBM
> 1620 collection, is original software specifically for the IBM 1620
> Model 2.  Of particular interest are the IBM 1620 Monitor II and IBM
> 1620-2 diagnostics, but any Model 2 software would be helpful to their
> efforts.

Just curious--do you mean Monitor II-D?  Does CHM have a working 1311
drive hooked to that CADET?

--Chuck

[cctalk] Re: IBM 1620 Model 2 software wanted

[Mark Linimon via cctalk]

> Some 20 years ago, I led the Computer History Museum's restoration of an 
> IBM 1620 Model 1 computer.

We all owe you thanks for this.

mcl

Re: IBM 1620 Simulation

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 8/27/21 11:23 AM, Lee Courtney via cctalk wrote:
> Video interview I made with John (Maniotes) in preparation for donation of
> the 1620 program library to CHM - https://youtu.be/N12pQBiRd7A

I remember that name--he was at Purdue Calumet Campus.  I probably even
met and talked to him 50+ years ago.

--Chuck

Re: IBM 1620 Simulation

[Lee Courtney via cctalk]

Video interview I made with John (Maniotes) in preparation for donation of
the 1620 program library to CHM - https://youtu.be/N12pQBiRd7A

Lee Courtney

On Fri, Aug 27, 2021 at 9:50 AM Van Snyder via cctalk 
wrote:

> On Thu, 2021-08-26 at 20:17 -0700, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> >
> >
> > On 8/26/21 7:43 PM, Van Snyder via cctalk wrote:
> > > There was a professor at Purdue who had two 20-drawer card cabinets
> > > full of 1620 software. I think his name was Maniotis. I think the
> > > Computer History Museum in Mountain View has it now. Maybe it's
> > > online.
> >
> > https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102710141
> >
> > The 1620 restoration crew read them it
> > they are in
> > http://bitsavers.org/bits/1620/1620.zip
>
> Should be http://bitsavers.org/bits/IBM/1620/1620.zip
>
> >
>
>

-- 
Lee Courtney
+1-650-704-3934 cell

Re: IBM 1620 Simulation

[Van Snyder via cctalk]

On Thu, 2021-08-26 at 20:17 -0700, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> 
> 
> On 8/26/21 7:43 PM, Van Snyder via cctalk wrote:
> > There was a professor at Purdue who had two 20-drawer card cabinets
> > full of 1620 software. I think his name was Maniotis. I think the
> > Computer History Museum in Mountain View has it now. Maybe it's
> > online.
> 
> https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102710141
> 
> The 1620 restoration crew read them it
> they are in
> http://bitsavers.org/bits/1620/1620.zip

Should be http://bitsavers.org/bits/IBM/1620/1620.zip

> 

Re: IBM 1620 Simulation

[Al Kossow via cctalk]

On 8/26/21 7:43 PM, Van Snyder via cctalk wrote:
> There was a professor at Purdue who had two 20-drawer card cabinets
> full of 1620 software. I think his name was Maniotis. I think the
> Computer History Museum in Mountain View has it now. Maybe it's online.

https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102710141

The 1620 restoration crew read them it
they are in
http://bitsavers.org/bits/1620/1620.zip

Re: IBM 1620 Simulation

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 8/26/21 7:16 PM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote:
/ printer / cpu setup wasn't too hard to run.
> 
> Run assembler if you want to study for a while.

Back in the day, you knew that you'd arrived when you could mentally
assemble a one-liner console program and type it in without resorting to
pencil and paper...

But yes, IIRC, there's a one-card/one-line boot loader for Monitor--you
can't boot directly from disk.  The loader specifies where Monitor is
and where input will be coming from (card, paper tape, console).

One thing that throws a lot of folks is how primitive the disk monitor
system is--there are no files, per se--just permanently-assigned disk
locations for various things.   Back in the day, I used to store some of
my work on the last couple of cylinders in the work cylinders.  Very
often, in spite of the system being used by others most of the time I
could recover my data.

Like I said, it's not the same under simulation.  But that can be said
for just about any old machine.   I doubt that running an LGP-30
simulation is anything like running on a real LGP-30.

--Chuck

Re: IBM 1620 Simulation

[Van Snyder via cctalk]

There was a professor at Purdue who had two 20-drawer card cabinets
full of 1620 software. I think his name was Maniotis. I think the
Computer History Museum in Mountain View has it now. Maybe it's online.

On Thu, 2021-08-26 at 22:07 -0400, Ray Jewhurst via cctalk wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 9:46 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> > On 8/26/21 5:14 PM, Ray Jewhurst via cctalk wrote:
> > > Hello all,Long time lurker, extremely rare poster, I was reading
> > > the Wikipediaarticle on the IBM 1620 and became quite
> > > intrigued.  I know that there
> > is a
> > > simulator for it on SimH but I have never ran or simulated any
> > card-driven
> > > machines before.  I have all the documentation and the
> > > ibm1620.zip filefrom bitsavers but I am not sure what to do
> > > next.  I know I would like totry Monitor, Fortran-II and possibly
> > > GOTRAN but I have so many questions.I read the SimH documentation
> > > which gave me some understanding but I
> > don't
> > > know exactly how the card decks work, how to install Monitor or
> > > how to
> > boot
> > > Monitor once it is installed since I know you have to boot off a
> > > deck.
> > My
> > > final question is, is there an easy to use card-driven machine to
> > > cut myteeth on?  Also, any anecdotes on any of the old IBM
> > > computers would beboth welcome and greatly appreciated.
> > 
> > Cards are just ASCII lines separated by newlines>
> > 
> > For more information, see:
> > https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/read/3610586/ibm-1620-simulator-usage-01-dec-2008-simh
> 
>  I have already read that document. The thing that stuck with me most
> wasthe fact that you can not boot off the hard drive (or were they
> alreadycalling them DASDs?)
> 
> > It's been years since I used the SIMH 1620 simulator, so I can't
> > evenclaim to be remotely current.  I used it to check out some
> > sample codeback then.
> > My reaction:  It's just not the same.  I guess you had to be there.
> > Did anyone manage to snag a copy of Monitor IID?  Or is the only
> > extantversion Monitor I?   The differences were significant.
> 
>  I only saw Monitor I. Will it even run on a 1620-II?
> 
> > Also, don't forget SPS!
>  SPS is included both standalone and in the Monitor I distro, so
> isFortran-II
> 
> > If you're new to the 1620, I recommend the following book:
> > 
> > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/1620/Basic_Programming_Concepts_and_the_IBM_1620_Computer_1962.pdf
> 
> Thank you. I will check it out starting tonight.
> 
> > If you want to use a totally (i.e. no disk) card-driven version of
> > the1620, I'd recommend that you start with simple machine
> > languageprograms.   I (dimly) recall that using the card-only
> > FORTRAN compilerwas a bit of a chore:  read pass 1, read your
> > program, while punching anintermediate deck, read pass 2 and the
> > intermediate deck, read thesubroutine library and wind up with an
> > executable deck.
> I will try the card-driven version first I think as an intro to
> cards.
> 
> > --Chuck
> > 
> ThanksRay

Re: IBM 1620 Simulation

[jim stephens via cctalk]

On 8/26/2021 5:14 PM, Ray Jewhurst via cctalk wrote:

Hello all,
Long time lurker, extremely rare poster, I was reading the Wikipedia
article on the IBM 1620 and became quite intrigued.  I know that there is a
simulator for it on SimH but I have never ran or simulated any card-driven
machines before.  I have all the documentation and the ibm1620.zip file
from bitsavers but I am not sure what to do next.  I know I would like to
try Monitor, Fortran-II and possibly GOTRAN but I have so many questions.
I read the SimH documentation which gave me some understanding but I don't
know exactly how the card decks work, how to install Monitor or how to boot
Monitor once it is installed since I know you have to boot off a deck.  My
final question is, is there an easy to use card-driven machine to cut my
teeth on?  Also, any anecdotes on any of the old IBM computers would be
both welcome and greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance

Ray

To run from cards, you probably will need to look up the exact keys, but
basically you insert a boot instruction in memory with the machine halted
then run it.

You prepare one of the decks in the card reader prior to that (keep the
SIMH console hand).

The Fortran compiler will need a punch file specified where you can find it,
as each pass will punch cards that need to be successively read in on 
future passes.


I've not run one with a disk or paper tape or other facilities, but the 
reader / punch

/ printer / cpu setup wasn't too hard to run.

Run assembler if you want to study for a while.

thanks
Jim

Re: IBM 1620 Simulation

[Ray Jewhurst via cctalk]

On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 9:46 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 8/26/21 5:14 PM, Ray Jewhurst via cctalk wrote:
> > Hello all,
> > Long time lurker, extremely rare poster, I was reading the Wikipedia
> > article on the IBM 1620 and became quite intrigued.  I know that there
> is a
> > simulator for it on SimH but I have never ran or simulated any
> card-driven
> > machines before.  I have all the documentation and the ibm1620.zip file
> > from bitsavers but I am not sure what to do next.  I know I would like to
> > try Monitor, Fortran-II and possibly GOTRAN but I have so many questions.
> > I read the SimH documentation which gave me some understanding but I
> don't
> > know exactly how the card decks work, how to install Monitor or how to
> boot
> > Monitor once it is installed since I know you have to boot off a deck.
> My
> > final question is, is there an easy to use card-driven machine to cut my
> > teeth on?  Also, any anecdotes on any of the old IBM computers would be
> > both welcome and greatly appreciated.
> >
>
> Cards are just ASCII lines separated by newlines>
>
>
> For more information, see:
>
> https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/read/3610586/ibm-1620-simulator-usage-01-dec-2008-simh


 I have already read that document. The thing that stuck with me most was
the fact that you can not boot off the hard drive (or were they already
calling them DASDs?)


> It's been years since I used the SIMH 1620 simulator, so I can't even
> claim to be remotely current.  I used it to check out some sample code
> back then.
>
> My reaction:  It's just not the same.  I guess you had to be there.
>
> Did anyone manage to snag a copy of Monitor IID?  Or is the only extant
> version Monitor I?   The differences were significant.


 I only saw Monitor I. Will it even run on a 1620-II?


> Also, don't forget SPS!
>
 SPS is included both standalone and in the Monitor I distro, so is
Fortran-II


> If you're new to the 1620, I recommend the following book:
>
>
> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/1620/Basic_Programming_Concepts_and_the_IBM_1620_Computer_1962.pdf


Thank you. I will check it out starting tonight.


> If you want to use a totally (i.e. no disk) card-driven version of the
> 1620, I'd recommend that you start with simple machine language
> programs.   I (dimly) recall that using the card-only FORTRAN compiler
> was a bit of a chore:  read pass 1, read your program, while punching an
> intermediate deck, read pass 2 and the intermediate deck, read the
> subroutine library and wind up with an executable deck.
>
I will try the card-driven version first I think as an intro to cards.


> --Chuck
>
>
Thanks
Ray

Re: IBM 1620 Simulation

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 8/26/21 5:14 PM, Ray Jewhurst via cctalk wrote:
> Hello all,
> Long time lurker, extremely rare poster, I was reading the Wikipedia
> article on the IBM 1620 and became quite intrigued.  I know that there is a
> simulator for it on SimH but I have never ran or simulated any card-driven
> machines before.  I have all the documentation and the ibm1620.zip file
> from bitsavers but I am not sure what to do next.  I know I would like to
> try Monitor, Fortran-II and possibly GOTRAN but I have so many questions.
> I read the SimH documentation which gave me some understanding but I don't
> know exactly how the card decks work, how to install Monitor or how to boot
> Monitor once it is installed since I know you have to boot off a deck.  My
> final question is, is there an easy to use card-driven machine to cut my
> teeth on?  Also, any anecdotes on any of the old IBM computers would be
> both welcome and greatly appreciated.
>

Cards are just ASCII lines separated by newlines>


For more information, see:
https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/read/3610586/ibm-1620-simulator-usage-01-dec-2008-simh

It's been years since I used the SIMH 1620 simulator, so I can't even
claim to be remotely current.  I used it to check out some sample code
back then.

My reaction:  It's just not the same.  I guess you had to be there.

Did anyone manage to snag a copy of Monitor IID?  Or is the only extant
version Monitor I?   The differences were significant.

Also, don't forget SPS!

If you're new to the 1620, I recommend the following book:

http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/1620/Basic_Programming_Concepts_and_the_IBM_1620_Computer_1962.pdf

If you want to use a totally (i.e. no disk) card-driven version of the
1620, I'd recommend that you start with simple machine language
programs.   I (dimly) recall that using the card-only FORTRAN compiler
was a bit of a chore:  read pass 1, read your program, while punching an
intermediate deck, read pass 2 and the intermediate deck, read the
subroutine library and wind up with an executable deck.

--Chuck

Re: IBM 1620 Simulation

[Lee Courtney via cctalk]

https://github.com/IBM-1620/Junior

On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 5:15 PM Ray Jewhurst via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Hello all,
> Long time lurker, extremely rare poster, I was reading the Wikipedia
> article on the IBM 1620 and became quite intrigued.  I know that there is a
> simulator for it on SimH but I have never ran or simulated any card-driven
> machines before.  I have all the documentation and the ibm1620.zip file
> from bitsavers but I am not sure what to do next.  I know I would like to
> try Monitor, Fortran-II and possibly GOTRAN but I have so many questions.
> I read the SimH documentation which gave me some understanding but I don't
> know exactly how the card decks work, how to install Monitor or how to boot
> Monitor once it is installed since I know you have to boot off a deck.  My
> final question is, is there an easy to use card-driven machine to cut my
> teeth on?  Also, any anecdotes on any of the old IBM computers would be
> both welcome and greatly appreciated.
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> Ray
>


-- 
Lee Courtney
+1-650-704-3934 cell

Water Cooling and Hot Climates was RE: IBM 1620; was: Early Programming Books

[Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk  On Behalf Of Van Snyder via
> cctalk
> Sent: 22 June 2021 00:00
> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: IBM 1620; was: Early Programming Books
> 
> On Mon, 2021-06-21 at 17:26 -0400, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote:
> > > Of course, nowadays, the old R22 systems are being refilled with
> > > purified propane, called R290.  Cheap, with better thermal
> > > properties than R22, but probably not legal when LCM picked up the
> 6500.
> >
> > When cleaning out a 3rd party CDC dealer quite a few years back, he
> > remarked that the CDC machines going way back all the way to the 800s
> > were fantastically unpicky about how they were cooled. He just used a
> > garden hose connected to the building potable water, and if the
> > machine under test needed more coolant because it was running warm, it
> > just pumped more supply. Heated waste water went down the drain.
> >
> > This unlike the IBM water machines.
> 
> I was once told that the most valuable guy in a Honeywell 6080 Multics shop
> was the plumber.
> 

I don't ever remember the 6080 being water cooled? I Thought Honeywell/GEC was 
all air cooled. All the L66s (which were from what the Multics machine was 
developed) were air cooled.

I was told the following tale by one of my Honeywell contacts

... Apparently the last Shah of Iran owned a Level 66 for the use of his secret 
police. Apart from the fact that the OS had been modified by Honeywell Italy, 
and the documentation for this was in Italian which no one on the job 
understood, and when the OS crashed it was usually in a section of the code 
with Italian comments,  there was also a problem with the power. As the 
temperature rose the power invariable failed. This was because it was run from 
a diesel generator that was out in the sun, it over heated and cut out.

... any way after many complaints the military man in charge came to the 
Honeywell staff and told them the problem was solved. They of course asked how 
and were taken to the generator and shown the latest modification. They had 
fitted a new cap to the radiator with a thermometer in it, as often found on 
vintage cars. They had painted a read line on the gauge and assigned a soldier 
to watch it. When the needle got to the line, he blew his whistle and several 
other soldiers appeared and threw buckets of water over the engine until it 
cooled down
 
I just wonder what they did while waiting for it to overheat..

> >
> > --
> > Will

Dave
G4UGM

Re: IBM 1620; was: Early Programming Books

[Van Snyder via cctalk]

On Mon, 2021-06-21 at 18:55 -0500, Gavin Scott via cctalk wrote:
> Oh yeah, that was like 12 years ago? I believe they had gotten the
> 1620 CADET (“Can't Add, Doesn't Even Try”) running

One of my colleagues, about fifty years ago, wanted to use the 1620 for
telemetry processing. So he replaced the arithmetic tables to do
decimal with ones that did octal instead. The code was, of course, in
assembler, not FORTRAN.

Re: IBM 1620; was: Early Programming Books

[Gavin Scott via cctalk]

On Mon, Jun 21, 2021 at 1:43 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk
 wrote:
> For some (jprobably hallucinatory) reason, I thought there was a project
> at CHM to replace the 1620 core stack with semiconductor memory.   Guess
> that never happened.

Oh yeah, that was like 12 years ago? I believe they had gotten the
1620 CADET (“Can't Add, Doesn't Even Try”) running, but there was
something original they didn't have working (could have been the core)
that they had implemented in a little semiconductor board stuck in it.
IIRC the system was in operating condition at the time. But I had
forgotten I ever knew this until you mentioned it.

Re: IBM 1620; was: Early Programming Books

[jim stephens via cctalk]

On 6/21/2021 4:00 PM, Van Snyder via cctalk wrote:

I was once told that the most valuable guy in a Honeywell 6080 Multics
shop was the plumber.

No water cooling.

Re: IBM 1620; was: Early Programming Books

[Van Snyder via cctalk]

On Mon, 2021-06-21 at 17:26 -0400, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote:
> > Of course, nowadays, the old R22 systems are being refilled with
> > purified propane, called R290.  Cheap, with better thermal properties
> > than R22, but probably not legal when LCM picked up the 6500.
> 
> When cleaning out a 3rd party CDC dealer quite a few years back, he
> remarked that the CDC machines going way back all the way to the 800s
> were fantastically unpicky about how they were cooled. He just used a
> garden hose connected to the building potable water, and if the
> machine under test needed more coolant because it was running warm, it
> just pumped more supply. Heated waste water went down the drain.
> 
> This unlike the IBM water machines.

I was once told that the most valuable guy in a Honeywell 6080 Multics
shop was the plumber.

> 
> --
> Will

Re: IBM 1620; was: Early Programming Books

[Rich Alderson via cctalk]

> Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2021 16:02:20 -0400
> From: Paul Koning via cctalk 

>> On Jun 21, 2021, at 3:52 PM, Chuck Guzis  wrote:

>> On 6/21/21 11:53 AM, Paul Koning wrote:

>>> Perhaps you were thinking about the CDC 6500 at the late lamented LCM?
>>> That got some replacement stacks, which was an interesting puzzle because
>>> the read data connection out of the memory modules is a differential analog
>>> signal carrying the sense wire data, so the replacement module had to
>>> produce signals of that form.

>> From whence did the LCM 6500 come?

> Some vague memory says Purdue.  LCM actually got it running, which was an
> interesting problem.  It required recreating the inter-chassis cables (since
> the original ones were cut as part of dismantling the machine) and restoring
> the cooling system.  That was a bit tricky since it uses non-PC coolant,
> which actually still exists but can't be manufactured any longer -- you have
> to use whatever recycled material still exists in the world, and find a
> graybeard AC tech who knows how to work with the stuff.

> I think the machine is pretty much original except that a few core stacks
> were busted so they were replaced by RAM based emulations.  And it may be
> that the original console display wasn't used because of worries of breaking
> it -- the design of that machine wasn't very good and it apparently has
> reliability issues.

As I was the original negotiator for the acquisition of the 6500 for LCM (not
yet LCM+L :-), allow me to chime in.

Paul Allen alerted me to the existence of a "surplus" CDC 6500 at the Chippewa
Falls Museum of Industry and Technology in early 2011.  (PGA was always on the
lookout for interesting systems, especially those with which he had a personal
connection.)  I spoke to several people at CFMIT, their BoD discussed the
possibility, and came back with a "No, thank you."

In early 2012, a management team was hired for the museum as we ramped up to
opening, consisting of an Engineering Manager and a Business Manager.  The
latter gentleman was an old friend of PGA and WHG, having been their boss when
they were PDP-10 programmers for the Bonneville Power RODS project; he also
negotiated the purchase of the Portland Trailblazers basketball team by PGA,
and a number of other deals along the way.  He picked up the 6500 acquisition,
convinced the BoD at CFMIT to sell PGA the system, and it came to pass.

We learned when it was delivered that the machine had been at Purdue for its 22
years of active service, from 1967 to 1989, and was purchased back by CDC to
donation to CFMIT, part of whose mission was to have at least one of every
machine designed by hometown boy Seymour Cray.  The CDC FEs used a Sawzall vel
sim. to remove all the interchassis cabling, since "no one will ever want to
run this thing again".

The Engineering Manager, who in previous life wrote the microcode for the XKL
Toad-1 System's XKL-1 CPU, hired a new Principal Engineer, Bruce Sherry, to run
the restoration of the 6500.  (Bruce designed the XNI-1 Ethernet board for the
Toad-1, then went off to Strobe Data to do designs like their Nova and PDP-11
clones.  He also designed the 2nd generation Massbus Disk Emulator at LCM.)
Bruce found that the company which originally built the cables still had the
Cray design files, so they could recreate them; the pins were silver rather
than gold or tin, so he had to buy a brick of silver bullion for the company
which made the pins (need: c. 10,000, minimum order: 50,000).

Bruce brought in a wonder worker from Strobe, the late David Cameron, to do the
wiring; between 2012 and 2020, when we closed down, we found *3* miswirings out
of that 10,000 or so.

Because of Cray's physical design for the memory, Bruce had to spec out a
plexiglass box into which he inserted a small memory card, in order to keep the
proper airflow characteristics in the memory bays.

Bruce's business card at LCM listed his title as "Technomancer".

Rich

Re: IBM 1620; was: Early Programming Books

[William Donzelli via cctalk]

> When cleaning out a 3rd party CDC dealer quite a few years back, he
> remarked that the CDC machines going way back all the way to the 800s
> were fantastically unpicky about how they were cooled.

So I just reread what I wrote, and see it is crap. What I meant is
that CDC machines going back all the way to the 6000s and 7000s, and
UP TO the 800s, were unpicky. Basically, most of the line.

Me not poet.

--
Will

Re: IBM 1620; was: Early Programming Books

[William Donzelli via cctalk]

> Of course, nowadays, the old R22 systems are being refilled with
> purified propane, called R290.  Cheap, with better thermal properties
> than R22, but probably not legal when LCM picked up the 6500.

When cleaning out a 3rd party CDC dealer quite a few years back, he
remarked that the CDC machines going way back all the way to the 800s
were fantastically unpicky about how they were cooled. He just used a
garden hose connected to the building potable water, and if the
machine under test needed more coolant because it was running warm, it
just pumped more supply. Heated waste water went down the drain.

This unlike the IBM water machines.

--
Will

Re: IBM 1620; was: Early Programming Books

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 6/21/21 1:02 PM, Paul Koning wrote:

> Some vague memory says Purdue.  LCM actually got it running, which was an 
> interesting problem.  It required recreating the inter-chassis cables (since 
> the original ones were cut as part of dismantling the machine) and restoring 
> the cooling system.  That was a bit tricky since it uses non-PC coolant, 
> which actually still exists but can't be manufactured any longer -- you have 
> to use whatever recycled material still exists in the world, and find a 
> graybeard AC tech who knows how to work with the stuff.

If that was the system in the basement of the Math building, I remember
it well.  When I used it, it was running an enhanced version of MACE;
Greg Mansfield's and Dave Callender's predecessor to Kronos.   Differed
from SCOPE in that much more of the system was CM-resident.  There were
other significant internal differences as well from SCOPE.

Did I ever mention that I was the one who introduced Greg to the wonders
of gelato?  I know that Greg left CDC to work for Cray; but I lost track
of him sometime in the late 1980s.

I can well imagine that it was a struggle to get the system out of the
Purdue location.  What with the 7090s and the 1401, it was pretty crowded.

Of course, nowadays, the old R22 systems are being refilled with
purified propane, called R290.  Cheap, with better thermal properties
than R22, but probably not legal when LCM picked up the 6500.

--Chuck

Re: IBM 1620; was: Early Programming Books

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Jun 21, 2021, at 3:52 PM, Chuck Guzis  wrote:
> 
> On 6/21/21 11:53 AM, Paul Koning wrote:
> 
>> Perhaps you were thinking about the CDC 6500 at the late lamented LCM?  That 
>> got some replacement stacks, which was an interesting puzzle because the 
>> read data connection out of the memory modules is a differential analog 
>> signal carrying the sense wire data, so the replacement module had to 
>> produce signals of that form.
> 
> No, it was definitely a CHM project--could have been for the 1401,
> though.In way of comparison to the 6000 core, 1401 and 1620 memory
> is much larger, less dense and slower--and I don't believe that the
> machine architecture makes use of a read-modify-write that the 6000 so
> neatly exploited.
> 
> From whence did the LCM 6500 come?
> 
> --Chuck

Some vague memory says Purdue.  LCM actually got it running, which was an 
interesting problem.  It required recreating the inter-chassis cables (since 
the original ones were cut as part of dismantling the machine) and restoring 
the cooling system.  That was a bit tricky since it uses non-PC coolant, which 
actually still exists but can't be manufactured any longer -- you have to use 
whatever recycled material still exists in the world, and find a graybeard AC 
tech who knows how to work with the stuff.

I think the machine is pretty much original except that a few core stacks were 
busted so they were replaced by RAM based emulations.  And it may be that the 
original console display wasn't used because of worries of breaking it -- the 
design of that machine wasn't very good and it apparently has reliability 
issues.

paul

Re: IBM 1620; was: Early Programming Books

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 6/21/21 11:53 AM, Paul Koning wrote:

> Perhaps you were thinking about the CDC 6500 at the late lamented LCM?  That 
> got some replacement stacks, which was an interesting puzzle because the read 
> data connection out of the memory modules is a differential analog signal 
> carrying the sense wire data, so the replacement module had to produce 
> signals of that form.

No, it was definitely a CHM project--could have been for the 1401,
though.In way of comparison to the 6000 core, 1401 and 1620 memory
is much larger, less dense and slower--and I don't believe that the
machine architecture makes use of a read-modify-write that the 6000 so
neatly exploited.

>From whence did the LCM 6500 come?

--Chuck

Re: IBM 1620; was: Early Programming Books

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Jun 21, 2021, at 2:43 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> On 6/21/21 10:55 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
>> 
> memory. Nobody explained why that was a real problem.
>> 
>> Core memory is fairly sensitive to temperature.  In the case of the 1620, 
>> there is a heating system that brings the core memory box up to its 
>> operating temperature, which is why it takes several minutes after you turn 
>> on power before the machine will run.
>> 
>> Possibly the fan problem meant the temperature control system was no longer 
>> adequate.
> 
> For some (jprobably hallucinatory) reason, I thought there was a project
> at CHM to replace the 1620 core stack with semiconductor memory.   Guess
> that never happened.
> 
> --Chuck

Perhaps you were thinking about the CDC 6500 at the late lamented LCM?  That 
got some replacement stacks, which was an interesting puzzle because the read 
data connection out of the memory modules is a differential analog signal 
carrying the sense wire data, so the replacement module had to produce signals 
of that form.

paul

RE: IBM 1620; was: Early Programming Books

[Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk  On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis via
> cctalk
> Sent: 21 June 2021 19:43
> To: Paul Koning via cctalk 
> Subject: Re: IBM 1620; was: Early Programming Books
> 
> On 6/21/21 10:55 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
> >
> memory. Nobody explained why that was a real problem.
> >
> > Core memory is fairly sensitive to temperature.  In the case of the 1620,
> there is a heating system that brings the core memory box up to its operating
> temperature, which is why it takes several minutes after you turn on power
> before the machine will run.
> >
> > Possibly the fan problem meant the temperature control system was no
> longer adequate.
> 
> For some (jprobably hallucinatory) reason, I thought there was a project
> at CHM to replace the 1620 core stack with semiconductor memory.   Guess
> that never happened.
> 
> --Chuck
> 

I believe that CHM had several issues with its 1620. There was also a project 
to produce a new console

https://hackaday.com/tag/ibm-1620/

Dave

Re: IBM 1620; was: Early Programming Books

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 6/21/21 10:55 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
> 
memory. Nobody explained why that was a real problem.
> 
> Core memory is fairly sensitive to temperature.  In the case of the 1620, 
> there is a heating system that brings the core memory box up to its operating 
> temperature, which is why it takes several minutes after you turn on power 
> before the machine will run.
> 
> Possibly the fan problem meant the temperature control system was no longer 
> adequate.

For some (jprobably hallucinatory) reason, I thought there was a project
at CHM to replace the 1620 core stack with semiconductor memory.   Guess
that never happened.

--Chuck

Re: IBM 1620 manuals

[Dave Babcock via cctalk]

Jon,

The Computer History Museum (Mountain View, California) has the most 
extensive collection of IBM 1620 items - hardware, manuals, books, 
software, etc. - in the world.  Most of the items were collected a 
number of years ago when a team of volunteers restored the museum's IBM 
1620 Model 1 Level F computer to full operation.


I verified that the museum has both of these physical manuals, plus some 
associated update notices.  So, the museum does not need them.  Thanks 
for offering.


A subset of the restoration team is currently building a historic 
replica of the machine - dubbed the IBM 1620 Jr. - for the museum's 
education department use.  We've exhibited it at VCF West the past 2 
years [winning Best in Show last year] and will be there again this 
year.  This year we will be highlighting our work to create a 
general-purpose, ASCII terminal using an IBM/Lexmark Wheelwriter 1000 
typewriter.


Thanks,
Dave


On 5/25/2019 11:35 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:

On 05/13/2019 10:57 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:
I just discovered a binder with 2 IBM 1620 manuals.  A quick check 
shows bitsavers has these and newer editions of them.


So, does anybody want :

IBM 1620 Central Processing Unit, Model 2  (Form A26-5781-1)

and

IBM 1620 Monitor II System Reference Manual (Form C26-5774-0)

Jon

OK, since the mysterious "Steve" who actually HAS a 1620 apparently 
can't be contacted, anybody else have a 1620, or know somebody who 
does?  Or, has a significant collection

of 1620 items?

These manuals, or newer editions, are already on bitsavers, so there's 
nothing new there.


Otherwise they go to the person who contacted me first on 5/13. (I'm 
just seeing if there's anybody who actually NEEDS these before giving 
them to somebody who just "wants" them.)


 Jon

Re: IBM 1620 manuals

[Jon Elson via cctalk]

On 05/13/2019 10:57 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:
I just discovered a binder with 2 IBM 1620 manuals.  A 
quick check shows bitsavers has these and newer editions 
of them.


So, does anybody want :

IBM 1620 Central Processing Unit, Model 2  (Form A26-5781-1)

and

IBM 1620 Monitor II System Reference Manual (Form C26-5774-0)

Jon

OK, since the mysterious "Steve" who actually HAS a 1620 
apparently can't be contacted, anybody else have a 1620, or 
know somebody who does?  Or, has a significant collection

of 1620 items?

These manuals, or newer editions, are already on bitsavers, 
so there's nothing new there.


Otherwise they go to the person who contacted me first on 
5/13. (I'm just seeing if there's anybody who actually NEEDS 
these before giving them to somebody who just "wants" them.)


 Jon

RE: IBM 1620

[dwight]

On making PC boards, we had a shop mix the top and bottom
layers. They tried to tell us it didn't matter but our boards
had an edge connector, with different fingers on each side.
It was expensive high temperature PC board as well.
Dwight
 
  

Re: IBM 1620

[Mike Ross]

On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 5:08 PM, Lyle Bickley  wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Aug 2015 14:28:30 -0500
> Ben Sinclair  wrote:
>
>> The CHM has a bit of information, and links to three other 1620's that
>> they know about:
>> http://www.computerhistory.org/projects/ibm_1620/ibm1620/
>>
>> From what I've been reading, there may be only one operational 1620
>> right now, but the CHM is also trying to restore one.
>
> The IBM 1620 at the CHM is a running computer. There were two teams that 
> worked on the 1620 at the CHM. The first Team got it running. Unfortunately, 
> IBM used the wrong kind of solder on > the core memory and so the wires of 
> the core memory literally "dissolved".

That sounds suspiciously like a problem Henk Stegeman told me he had
encountered with the core memory on a System/3; the problem there had
been a reaction between the core memory solder (or was it the actual
wires used to string the cores?) and the foam used to make a seal for
the air cooling through the core... either way, vital bits of the core
stack got dissolved by the foam over 40 years...

Mike

Re: IBM 1620

[Jon Elson]

On 08/31/2015 02:59 AM, Dave G4UGM wrote:


I seem to remember that 1620 core runs warm, and you have to wait for it to
get warm before the machine comes on-line ... see last paragraph

http://www.angelfire.com/oh3/ebjoew/IBM_1620_Core_Memory.html


Yes, many IBM machines used heaters to stabilize the core 
temperature.  The 360/40 and 360/50 had heaters for the 
local store (register stack).  Not sure about the 360/30 
where local and main store were all in the same unit.  Not 
sure if the higher machines also heated the main store.


Jon

Re: IBM 1620

[Chuck Guzis]

On 08/30/2015 02:00 PM, Jon Elson wrote:


I hacked a fiber optic light pen onto a Calcomp plotter and made some
 artwork directly onto film, and then in 1996 I built a laser
photoplotter that cranks out 1000x1000 DPI images on red-sensitive
film at 0.6 inches/minute.  It can do up to 20 x 24" films, but I've
never gone over about one foot square.  The trick is, it has to be
VERY accurate to line up with existing PC boards.  I mostly use it to
make solder paste stencils, now, but originally made it for PC board
master artwork.


That's pretty impressive, Jon.

I do remember the headaches with registration of early multi-layer PCBs. 
 Lots of rejects.


--Chuck

Re: IBM 1620

[Jon Elson]

On 08/30/2015 05:09 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:

On 08/30/2015 02:00 PM, Jon Elson wrote:

I hacked a fiber optic light pen onto a Calcomp plotter 
and made some
 artwork directly onto film, and then in 1996 I built a 
laser
photoplotter that cranks out 1000x1000 DPI images on 
red-sensitive
film at 0.6 inches/minute.  It can do up to 20 x 24" 
films, but I've
never gone over about one foot square.  The trick is, it 
has to be
VERY accurate to line up with existing PC boards.  I 
mostly use it to
make solder paste stencils, now, but originally made it 
for PC board

master artwork.


That's pretty impressive, Jon.

I do remember the headaches with registration of early 
multi-layer PCBs.  Lots of rejects.


YIKES!  Multilayer!  I do have a system for registering 
2-layer boards, back when I used to make those myself.
You need a piece of Plexiglas about the same thickness as 
the PC board material.  You need a scrap of PC board 
material to use as a spacer between the front and rear 
artwork films.  You put this on a light table, and glue the 
strip of PC board material to the edge of the film, place 
the Plexiglas on the film and place the other film on top of 
the Plexiglas.  Glue the top film with rubber cement and use 
a magnifier to adjust alignment until it is as close as you 
can get it, then put a weight on the glued joint and leave 
it for a couple hours.  When the glue is dry, you can slip a 
photoresist-covered board between the two films and expose 
in a vacuum frame.  The two sides will come out well-aligned.


Jon

Re: IBM 1620

[Mouse]

> [...] then in 1996 I built a laser photoplotter that cranks out
> 1000x1000 DPI images on red-sensitive film at 0.6 inches/minute.

I'd be very interested in anything you care to share about its design
and building

/~\ The ASCII Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTMLmo...@rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!   7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

RE: IBM 1620

[Dave G4UGM]

 -Original Message-
 From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tothwolf
 Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2015 1:57 AM
 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
 cctalk@classiccmp.org
 Subject: Re: IBM 1620
 
 On Sat, 29 Aug 2015, Paul Koning wrote:
  On Aug 29, 2015, at 12:36 AM, Lyle Bickley lbick...@bickleywest.com
 wrote:
 
  I was not on the Team that did the memory analysis and the ultimate
  modern replacement memory. However, when I joined the Team, I
 asked
  similar questions and was told that the core memory was literally
  falling apart and was not repairable.
 
  I sure have a hard time fathoming any of this.
 
  Quite apart from the obvious one of building a pin-compatible modern
  memory, another answer comes to mind.  If a core plane has come apart,
  the cores could be recovered and restrung.  That requires patience and
  dexterity, but it should be doable.  It also requires a device to hold
  the cores correctly for threading; something like that could easily be
  made in a a 3d printer.
 
 Those particular cores are quite small and I'm not sure a 3d printer would
be
 able to print a jig with the tolerances required. 

Perhaps a consumer 3-D printer wouldn't, but there are higher precision
printers out there that will print to a high accuracy. 
Also not that 3-D printing with filament is just a small part of a wide
range of techniques available. There are several processes:-

http://3dprintingindustry.com/3d-printing-basics-free-beginners-guide/proces
ses/

some of which are not available to the Amateur because of cost (especially
un-expired patents) or just too complex...

There are also subtractive manufacturing methods such as laser
cutting/etching and CNC milling which could be more suitable for building a
core jig
.. Most of the FabLabs will have one of these available 

http://www.rolanddg.com/product/3d/3d/mdx-20_15/application.html

and a laser cutter

IBM had special machines to
 position and thread them.
 http://ibm-1401.info/IBMCoreArraysIEEEMagnetics1969.pdf
 

Thanks for posting that. Very interesting. Looking at it, the machines are
extremely complex, but I am sure they could be reproduced, albeit at a
probably prohibitive cost...
.. I have marked for later reading...

 I can certainly understand why repair wasn't initially attempted, however
 that doesn't mean it is impossible. Given the rarity of the system,
welding
 new stubs of wire to the original enamel wire or completely rebuilding the
 core planes with all new wire might still well be a worthwhile project at
some
 point in the future. It might even be possible to keep most of the cores
in
 position and rethread just one portion (X, Y,
 sense/inhibit) at a time.
 
 Another plus is that because of the way the wires are threaded, it is
unlikely
 that any of the cores have been lost, even if a large number of wires have
 broken at the terminals.

Dave Wade
G4UGM

Re: IBM 1620

[Paul Koning]

 On Aug 30, 2015, at 9:28 AM, Dave G4UGM dave.g4...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 ...
 Interesting.  I remember learning about the processes DEC used.  No fancy
 machines, just a flat plate jig with slots to hold the cores in their
 correct
 position, and nimble-fingered Oriental ladies to thread the wire through
 the
 core planes by hand.  Seemed sensible to me; that is the process I was
 thinking about for this case.
 
  paul
 
 Surely DEC used machine threaded cores later on. There is a 16k (I think)
 DEC board in the Museum of Science and Industry in Manchester that must be
 machine woven as you can't see the individual cores without heavy
 magnification...

Perhaps.  But I never heard of core threading machines until today.  Just 
because you can't see the cores without magnifiers doesn't mean this couldn't 
be done by hand.  It's amazing what trained hands can do. 

paul

Re: IBM 1620

[Chuck Guzis]

On 08/30/2015 12:15 PM, Paul Koning wrote:


Perhaps CDC's ECS?  125k (funny number that) words per memory bank.


Possibly.  We used a lot of it in SSD.  4MW installations were not 
uncommon, shared among 2-4 mainframes.  As I recall, core errors were 
not treated the same way as CM--part of deadstart was flawing ECS and 
creating a map of flawed areas, much as one might do with a disk.


It also had priority in CM access, so if you were doing a bunch of ECS 
transfers, you could see the DSD display dim and flicker.  1LT (long 
stranger tape driver) had conniptions with data underrun errors when ECS 
transfers were going on.



I've never done that, though I have Carver Mead's textbook that
describes how it is done.  I did do a PC board layout with red and
blue tape on a light table, in 1977.


This was Silicon Valley, circa 1978 or so.  A bunch of Intel people put 
together a training course (not Intel-sponsored) for people who wanted 
to learn IC design.


PCB design was also a specialty, what with mylar film, tape, white-out 
and India ink and, of course, an X-acto knife.  The best people at this 
seemed to be from the Far East.  Done probably at 4X scale, then reduced 
for production.


--Chuck

Re: IBM 1620

[Jon Elson]

On 08/30/2015 03:04 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:


PCB design was also a specialty, what with mylar film, 
tape, white-out and India ink and, of course, an X-acto 
knife.  The best people at this seemed to be from the Far 
East.  Done probably at 4X scale, then reduced for 
production.


Yup, back in the 70's I did a bunch of PCB design using 
mylar and black crepe tape, and pre-made donuts and IC pads.
UGH!!!  I still have a bunch of those sitting in folders.  I 
made my own reduction camera to bring the artwork down to 
1:1 size.


Then, in 1976 or so, I got my first CAD system, and printed 
everything out on plotters with India ink and Rapidograph 
pens on frosted Mylar.  If the pen didn't clog up or run dry 
before the print was finished, it worked pretty well, and 
there were Litho houses that mostly did ad copy that would 
do the reduction for a couple $.


I hacked a fiber optic light pen onto a Calcomp plotter and 
made some artwork directly onto film, and then in 1996 I 
built a laser photoplotter that cranks out 1000x1000 DPI 
images on red-sensitive film at 0.6 inches/minute.  It can 
do up to 20 x 24 films, but I've never gone over about one 
foot square.  The trick is, it has to be VERY accurate to 
line up with existing PC boards.  I mostly use it to make 
solder paste stencils, now, but originally made it for PC 
board master artwork.


Jon

Re: IBM 1620

[Chuck Guzis]

On 08/30/2015 11:15 AM, Paul Koning wrote:


So there'd be what, 120,000 cores to thread?  That might be a bit
daunting from a human-hour standpoint.  I'll wager that 120K cores
wasn't even a day's output for outfits like Fabritek.

Those cores weren't threaded one by one.  You'd start by setting the
cores into a holding jig, which positions them correctly.  Then you
thread wire from edge to edge.  The article mentions a needle with
the wire welded to its end; that makes sense because the copper wire
is unlikely to be stiff enough.  So the number of individual
threading operations is 3-4x the square root of the core plane size.
For example, on a 4k core plane, it would be 200 steps, give or take.
(A bit more on a CDC 6000 series core plane with its peculiar 5 wire
architecture.)


I've seen the archival photos.  Still, the possibility of missing or 
damaging a single core was always there.   I wonder what the rejection 
rate was.


I have heard of machine-fabricated core as well, but I thought that it 
only applied to larger, slower bulk core store.  One can certainly 
understand why plated-wire or thin-film technologies were attractive.


Sigh.  Another lost manual art.  I can remember during the 70s that the 
hot thing was to learn IC layout--the wives of a number of co-workers 
were going to night courses for that.


--Chuck

Re: IBM 1620

[Paul Koning]

 On Aug 30, 2015, at 2:34 PM, Chuck Guzis ccl...@sydex.com wrote:
 
 ...
 I have heard of machine-fabricated core as well, but I thought that it only 
 applied to larger, slower bulk core store.  One can certainly understand why 
 plated-wire or thin-film technologies were attractive.

Perhaps CDC's ECS?  125k (funny number that) words per memory bank.

 Sigh.  Another lost manual art.  I can remember during the 70s that the hot 
 thing was to learn IC layout--the wives of a number of co-workers were going 
 to night courses for that.

I've never done that, though I have Carver Mead's textbook that describes how 
it is done.  I did do a PC board layout with red and blue tape on a light 
table, in 1977.

paul

RE: IBM 1620

[Tothwolf]

On Sun, 30 Aug 2015, Dave G4UGM wrote:

On Sat, 29 Aug 2015, Tothwolf wrote:

IBM had special machines to position and thread them. 
http://ibm-1401.info/IBMCoreArraysIEEEMagnetics1969.pdf


Thanks for posting that. Very interesting. Looking at it, the machines are
extremely complex, but I am sure they could be reproduced, albeit at a
probably prohibitive cost...
.. I have marked for later reading...


Something else I forgot to mention, is that on page 8 in that pdf file, 
they mention initially using 60/40 tin-lead alloy solder for the enamel 
wire to the core plane terminals. On page 9, they describe switching to 
20/80 tin-lead so the solder would dissolve less copper from the enamel 
wire.


If repair of the core memory in CHM's IBM 1620 is ever attempted, I think 
either low-tin solder alloy with 1-2% added copper or possibly a more 
modern indium-lead solder alloy would probably be the best choice for the 
enamel wire to terminal connections since that would greatly reduce the 
likelihood of any future wire breakage.

Re: IBM 1620

[Paul Koning]

 On Aug 30, 2015, at 4:49 AM, Dave G4UGM dave.g4...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 ...
 IBM had special machines to
 position and thread them.
 http://ibm-1401.info/IBMCoreArraysIEEEMagnetics1969.pdf

Interesting.  I remember learning about the processes DEC used.  No fancy 
machines, just a flat plate jig with slots to hold the cores in their correct 
position, and nimble-fingered Oriental ladies to thread the wire through the 
core planes by hand.  Seemed sensible to me; that is the process I was thinking 
about for this case.

paul

Re: IBM 1620

[Tothwolf]

On Sun, 30 Aug 2015, Paul Koning wrote:

On Aug 30, 2015, at 1:55 PM, Chuck Guzis ccl...@sydex.com wrote:
On 08/30/2015 09:47 AM, Tothwolf wrote:

If repair of the core memory in CHM's IBM 1620 is ever attempted, I 
think either low-tin solder alloy with 1-2% added copper or possibly a 
more modern indium-lead solder alloy would probably be the best choice 
for the enamel wire to terminal connections since that would greatly 
reduce the likelihood of any future wire breakage.


Wouldn't solderless bonding/welding be a better alternative?


That's what the IBM IEEE article mentions.

I'm still a bit puzzled by the dissolving of copper wire by conventional 
solder.  The wire used in core memories is thin, but not outrageously so 
by the standards of, say, Litz wire, and that is soldered routinely.


See the other paper I mentioned earlier in the thread: 
https://app.aws.org/wj/supplement/WJ_1975_10_s370.pdf


On page 5, they describe 0.0031 40 AWG magnet wire being reduced to 0.002 
after soldering with 60/40 tin-lead solder. That 0.0011 reduction is 
basically 1/3 of the diameter of the wire. This explains the failures of 
the enamel wires in CHM's IBM 1620.


Copper erosion from tin is something I'd never really given a lot of 
thought to, but it will certainly be something I keep in mind from now on.

Re: IBM 1620

[ben]

On 8/30/2015 6:32 PM, Tothwolf wrote:


On page 5, they describe 0.0031 40 AWG magnet wire being reduced to
0.002 after soldering with 60/40 tin-lead solder. That 0.0011
reduction is basically 1/3 of the diameter of the wire. This explains
the failures of the enamel wires in CHM's IBM 1620.

Copper erosion from tin is something I'd never really given a lot of
thought to, but it will certainly be something I keep in mind from now on.

But is that the case? Would not heat induced failure be the real case 
here as I suspect that a amp or two of current is flowing that now very 
thin thread of wire? Digging though the doc's and a little calculation

clear this up.
Ben.

Re: IBM 1620

[Tothwolf]

On Sun, 30 Aug 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote:

On 08/30/2015 09:47 AM, Tothwolf wrote:


If repair of the core memory in CHM's IBM 1620 is ever attempted, I
think either low-tin solder alloy with 1-2% added copper or possibly
a more modern indium-lead solder alloy would probably be the best
choice for the enamel wire to terminal connections since that would
greatly reduce the likelihood of any future wire breakage.


Wouldn't solderless bonding/welding be a better alternative?


Yes, if the terminals had been designed for that. The terminals on these 
would have been designed for soldering, so unless you wanted to replace 
all the existing terminals, it would probably be best to stick to 
soldering. Either a low-tin + copper or non-tin solder really should solve 
the problem anyway.

Re: IBM 1620

[Tothwolf]

On Sun, 30 Aug 2015, ben wrote:

On 8/30/2015 6:32 PM, Tothwolf wrote:

On page 5, they describe 0.0031 40 AWG magnet wire being reduced to 
0.002 after soldering with 60/40 tin-lead solder. That 0.0011 
reduction is basically 1/3 of the diameter of the wire. This explains 
the failures of the enamel wires in CHM's IBM 1620.


Copper erosion from tin is something I'd never really given a lot of 
thought to, but it will certainly be something I keep in mind from now 
on.


But is that the case? Would not heat induced failure be the real case 
here as I suspect that a amp or two of current is flowing that now very 
thin thread of wire? Digging though the doc's and a little calculation 
clear this up.


My guess is that over time the thinned wires broke due to a combination of 
vibration and thermal fatigue. Vibration while transporting the system to 
CHM may well have been what ultimately caused them to break.

Re: IBM 1620

[Chuck Guzis]

On 08/30/2015 05:16 PM, Tothwolf wrote:


According to IBM's paper, extra cores were threaded initially and
used to replace any cores that tested bad during assembly. Any extras
were crushed after assembly to remove them.


I suspect there were also extra rows after shipment as well.  I seem to 
remember a magnet and a broomstick that got used to fish out remnants in 
the 7090 (oil bath) core units.


--Chuck

Re: IBM 1620

[Paul Koning]

 On Aug 29, 2015, at 12:36 AM, Lyle Bickley lbick...@bickleywest.com wrote:
 
 ...
 
 I was not on the Team that did the memory analysis and the ultimate
 modern replacement memory. However, when I joined the Team, I asked
 similar questions and was told that the core memory was literally
 falling apart and was not repairable. 

I sure have a hard time fathoming any of this.

Quite apart from the obvious one of building a pin-compatible modern memory, 
another answer comes to mind.  If a core plane has come apart, the cores could 
be recovered and restrung.  That requires patience and dexterity, but it should 
be doable.  It also requires a device to hold the cores correctly for 
threading; something like that could easily be made in a a 3d printer.

paul

Area 51 - was Re: CDC-160 (was Re: IBM 1620)

[Toby Thain]

On 2015-08-28 9:49 PM, Eric Smith wrote:

On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 4:57 PM, ben bfranc...@jetnet.ab.ca wrote:

Just the US goverment in general. Try area 51 next.


Don't bother. There's nothing interesting in Area 51 any more; due to
all the publicity Area 51 has gotten, they've long since moved all the
good stuff to Area 52, which still has a low profile.



I know you're just being witty, but in fact it still seems quite active:

http://ur1.ca/nloay

--Toby

Re: IBM 1620

[Tothwolf]

On Sat, 29 Aug 2015, Paul Koning wrote:

On Aug 29, 2015, at 12:36 AM, Lyle Bickley lbick...@bickleywest.com wrote:

I was not on the Team that did the memory analysis and the ultimate 
modern replacement memory. However, when I joined the Team, I asked 
similar questions and was told that the core memory was literally 
falling apart and was not repairable.


I sure have a hard time fathoming any of this.

Quite apart from the obvious one of building a pin-compatible modern 
memory, another answer comes to mind.  If a core plane has come apart, 
the cores could be recovered and restrung.  That requires patience and 
dexterity, but it should be doable.  It also requires a device to hold 
the cores correctly for threading; something like that could easily be 
made in a a 3d printer.


Those particular cores are quite small and I'm not sure a 3d printer would 
be able to print a jig with the tolerances required. IBM had special 
machines to position and thread them. 
http://ibm-1401.info/IBMCoreArraysIEEEMagnetics1969.pdf


I can certainly understand why repair wasn't initially attempted, however 
that doesn't mean it is impossible. Given the rarity of the system, 
welding new stubs of wire to the original enamel wire or completely 
rebuilding the core planes with all new wire might still well be a 
worthwhile project at some point in the future. It might even be possible 
to keep most of the cores in position and rethread just one portion (X, Y, 
sense/inhibit) at a time.


Another plus is that because of the way the wires are threaded, it is 
unlikely that any of the cores have been lost, even if a large number of 
wires have broken at the terminals.

CDC-160 (was Re: IBM 1620)

[P Gebhardt]

 
 (Rumor was that there was also a CDC-160A in somebody's basement here in
 town, as well).
 


Speaking of which:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Control-Data-160-Computer-System-Vintage-Computer-/252070822992?hash=item3ab0978450


Maybe it's the one from that basement :)


Cheers,
Pierre

---

Pierre's collection of classic computers moved to: http://www.digitalheritage.de

RE: IBM 1620

[Dave G4UGM]

Many 1620's were leased and IBM recovered them at the end of the lease.
There is a note somewhere I have seen about the one at Lancaster University
have a disk drive replaced and then returned to IBM within weeks...
.. on the other had I know the one at Newcastle Polytechnic hung around for
at least a year. I wonder what happened to the one at Constantine College
(later Teeside Polytechnic, and now Teesside University) which ran my first
Fortran Program...

Dave

 -Original Message-
 From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jay
Jaeger
 Sent: 28 August 2015 03:41
 To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
 Subject: Re: IBM 1620
 
 On 8/27/2015 9:18 PM, Kevin Tikker wrote:
 
  Thanks very much for the link. Maybe there is one out there
 
 
 There were two IBM 1620's in the College of Engineering in Madison, WI
 when I started school, and rumor was that one of them ended up in
 somebody's basement. Whether or not that rumor was true, and if so, if it
is
 still around, or not, I have no idea.
 
 (Rumor was that there was also a CDC-160A in somebody's basement here in
 town, as well).
 
 Both of these rumors date back 30+ years, though.
 
 JRJ

Re: CDC-160 (was Re: IBM 1620)

[ben]

On 8/28/2015 3:14 AM, P Gebhardt wrote:



We all KNOW the government people still have one running
for your tax . After all the bribes and shady dealings
it gets turned on twice a year. Too old to have the Y2000 bug.
Ben.

Re: IBM 1620

[Paul Koning]

 On Aug 28, 2015, at 1:30 AM, Chuck Guzis ccl...@sydex.com wrote:
 
 ...
 Well, other than the Model I (CADET) typewriter acting as if it were going to 
 fly apart at any time, the 1311 disk drive was fun to watch.

Especially if you didn't have the direct seek option.  I had a one-card 
program that would do for (i=0; i100; i++) seek_cylinder(i).  That doesn't 
step track to track as you would expect; instead, it goes from track n to 0 to 
n+1, resulting in progressively wilder and slower seeks as n increases.

paul

Re: CDC-160 (was Re: IBM 1620)

[Jay Jaeger]

Cool.  Wonder what it will go for.

JRJ

On 8/28/2015 4:14 AM, P Gebhardt wrote:
 
 
 
 

 (Rumor was that there was also a CDC-160A in somebody's basement here in
 town, as well).

 
 
 Speaking of which:
 
 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Control-Data-160-Computer-System-Vintage-Computer-/252070822992?hash=item3ab0978450
 
 
 Maybe it's the one from that basement :)
 
 
 Cheers,
 Pierre
 
 ---
 
 Pierre's collection of classic computers moved to: 
 http://www.digitalheritage.de
 

Re: IBM 1620

[Tothwolf]

On Thu, 27 Aug 2015, Lyle Bickley wrote:

The IBM 1620 at the CHM is a running computer. There were two teams that 
worked on the 1620 at the CHM. The first Team got it running. 
Unfortunately, IBM used the wrong kind of solder on the core memory and 
so the wires of the core memory literally dissolved.


With all the different solder alloys I work with regularly, I have to 
ask...what type of solder caused that sort of damage? Was it the alloy 
itself, or did IBM use a flux which was too active and then failed to 
clean away all the residue? If they used a rosin-based flux, was it due to 
the specific activator used in the flux?

Re: IBM 1620

[Chuck Guzis]

On 08/28/2015 07:42 AM, Tothwolf wrote:


With all the different solder alloys I work with regularly, I have to
 ask...what type of solder caused that sort of damage? Was it the
alloy itself, or did IBM use a flux which was too active and then
failed to clean away all the residue? If they used a rosin-based
flux, was it due to the specific activator used in the flux?


That's actually a little puzzling.  1401 core frames have survived well 
(got one in my desk drawer).  You'd expect that the same process would 
be used for equipment that's pretty close to contemporary.


--Chuck

Re: IBM 1620

[Tothwolf]

On Fri, 28 Aug 2015, Lyle Bickley wrote:

On Fri, 28 Aug 2015 20:31:16 -0500 (CDT) Tothwolf wrote:

I think I've answered my own question today while looking at a 
datasheet for another type of solder. My guess is that the solder they 
used did not contain any copper, and the tin in the solder IBM used 
dissolved small amounts of the already very tiny copper wires, creating 
a weak point where the wires were soldered to the terminals.


Lyle, was there any discussion of possibly laser welding replacement 
stubs of wire before the breaks that could then be re-soldered to the 
terminals? That would seem to be a viable repair option, although it 
would require special equipment.


I was not on the Team that did the memory analysis and the ultimate 
modern replacement memory. However, when I joined the Team, I asked 
similar questions and was told that the core memory was literally 
falling apart and was not repairable.


So the core mats were more or less dangling? Still, I would think they 
would be repairable, but it would be a major undertaking since there would 
probably be 1000s of tiny stubs of wire to weld in (every single 
connection, basically). All of those enamel wire terminations would then 
also need to be soldered to the terminals with either a low-tin or copper 
containing alloy of solder too.


I also can't help but wonder what other systems which use core memory 
might suffer from this type of failure as they continue to age.


Any chance someone on the team took some photos of the core memory? I 
didn't see any on CHM's IBM 1620 webpage. 
http://www.computerhistory.org/projects/ibm_1620/ibm1620/


For those interested, here is a paper Google turned up which explains the 
problem:


Lead Alloys for High Temperature Soldering of Magnet Wire
https://app.aws.org/wj/supplement/WJ_1975_10_s370.pdf

Re: CDC-160 (was Re: IBM 1620)

[Eric Smith]

On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 4:57 PM, ben bfranc...@jetnet.ab.ca wrote:
 Just the US goverment in general. Try area 51 next.

Don't bother. There's nothing interesting in Area 51 any more; due to
all the publicity Area 51 has gotten, they've long since moved all the
good stuff to Area 52, which still has a low profile.

Re: IBM 1620

[Lyle Bickley]

On Fri, 28 Aug 2015 20:31:16 -0500 (CDT)
Tothwolf tothw...@concentric.net wrote:

 On Fri, 28 Aug 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote:
  On 08/28/2015 07:42 AM, Tothwolf wrote:
 
  With all the different solder alloys I work with regularly, I have
  to ask...what type of solder caused that sort of damage? Was it
  the alloy itself, or did IBM use a flux which was too active and
  then failed to clean away all the residue? If they used a
  rosin-based flux, was it due to the specific activator used in the
  flux?
 
  That's actually a little puzzling.  1401 core frames have survived
  well (got one in my desk drawer).  You'd expect that the same
  process would be used for equipment that's pretty close to
  contemporary.
 
 I think I've answered my own question today while looking at a
 datasheet for another type of solder. My guess is that the solder
 they used did not contain any copper, and the tin in the solder IBM
 used dissolved small amounts of the already very tiny copper wires,
 creating a weak point where the wires were soldered to the terminals.
 
 Lyle, was there any discussion of possibly laser welding replacement
 stubs of wire before the breaks that could then be re-soldered to the
 terminals? That would seem to be a viable repair option, although it
 would require special equipment.

I was not on the Team that did the memory analysis and the ultimate
modern replacement memory. However, when I joined the Team, I asked
similar questions and was told that the core memory was literally
falling apart and was not repairable. 

Lyle
-- 
Lyle Bickley
Bickley Consulting West Inc.
http://bickleywest.com
Black holes are where God is dividing by zero

Re: IBM 1620 / IBM 1401.

[John GEREMIN - Engineer]

Here in Australia, the Australian Computer Museum Society has an IBM 1401 - 
just the big CPU unit.


We know of an IBM 1620 CPU unit in Computer Sciences at the University of NSW.

I worked on a 1620 in the 1960s - and thought that it was 'magic'.

Sadly, we don't have enough sponsors to put either on public display.

Regards,John GEREMIN, ASTC, Honorary Curator, www.acms.org.au
  

Re: CDC-160 (was Re: IBM 1620)

[Mike Loewen]

On Fri, 28 Aug 2015, ben wrote:


On 8/28/2015 3:17 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote:


 I expect that Ben's posting was a joke directed at the IRS.


Just the US goverment in general. Try area 51 next.
The 1980's was the last use I suspect of the 1965's machines.


   The military used 1950's machines into the '80s.  E.g. the IBM-built 
AN/FSQ-7 computers for SAGE became operational starting in 1957, and some 
stayed on the job until 1983.



Mike Loewen mloe...@cpumagic.scol.pa.us
Old Technology  http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/

Re: IBM 1620

[Tothwolf]

On Fri, 28 Aug 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote:

On 08/28/2015 07:42 AM, Tothwolf wrote:

With all the different solder alloys I work with regularly, I have to 
ask...what type of solder caused that sort of damage? Was it the alloy 
itself, or did IBM use a flux which was too active and then failed to 
clean away all the residue? If they used a rosin-based flux, was it due 
to the specific activator used in the flux?


That's actually a little puzzling.  1401 core frames have survived well 
(got one in my desk drawer).  You'd expect that the same process would 
be used for equipment that's pretty close to contemporary.


I think I've answered my own question today while looking at a datasheet 
for another type of solder. My guess is that the solder they used did not 
contain any copper, and the tin in the solder IBM used dissolved small 
amounts of the already very tiny copper wires, creating a weak point where 
the wires were soldered to the terminals.


Lyle, was there any discussion of possibly laser welding replacement stubs 
of wire before the breaks that could then be re-soldered to the terminals? 
That would seem to be a viable repair option, although it would require 
special equipment.

Re: IBM 1620

[Chuck Guzis]

On 08/28/2015 05:59 AM, Paul Koning wrote:


Especially if you didn't have the direct seek option.  I had a
one-card program that would do for (i=0; i100; i++)
seek_cylinder(i).  That doesn't step track to track as you would
expect; instead, it goes from track n to 0 to n+1, resulting in
progressively wilder and slower seeks as n increases.


Yup, the one I worked with did not have the direct seek option.  What 
was interesting from a historical standpoint was the way in which the 
1311 was used by Monitor II-D.   IIRC, the first 25 cylinders were 
dubbed work cylinders with no formal filesystem.  The remainder was 
used for more-or-less permanent storage of programs--not so much as a 
data store.


The CADET I worked on did have the Indirect Addressing feature, which I 
believe was required to run Monitor II-D.  Hard today to think of an 
addressing mode as an optional ($$$) feature.  The Model II had an index 
register.


I can still remember many of the 1620 numeric opcodes.  Strange, 
considering that I can't remember where I put my keys or what I had for 
breakfast...


--Chuck

Re: IBM 1620

[Kevin Tikker]

I attended Vista at both locations the main building and the basement of the 
former Ross store. The new building was a mess, half finished, poorly designed 
and with the video studio poorly built. Thanks for the info on the 1620. Petals 
is such a vast organization it's entirely possible some 1620 lurks in some 
dark, dank unfinished space.


Sent from my iPhone

 On Aug 28, 2015, at 11:05 AM, Fred Cisin ci...@xenosoft.com wrote:
 
 On Thu, 27 Aug 2015, Kevin Tikker wrote:
 I went to both Laney and Berkeley City College so you may have a clue.
 Thank you
 
 If you actually want to follow-up on such tenuous leads, . . .
 Wil Price would know what happened to the 1620 and 1401.  So would Ben 
 Micallef and Jack Olson, but they're dead.
 
 I guess that it may have been in the move up onto the hill in 1972? that 
 Merritt switched to DEC.  Reliability of the PDP suffered from a bad disk 
 drive, so it was replaced in 1983 with a few RJE terminals and a lot of 5150s.
 
 In 1983, the PDP with drive that never worked reliably, was sold to Richmond 
 schools (to pay for 5150s).  PGE didn't fully understand the difference 
 between Delta and Y three-phase.  But, in exchange for going along with lie 
 that it was struck by lightning during installation (no other lightning 
 strikes within miles for 100 years), PGE magnanimously (with tax break) 
 bought Richmond schools a new one.
 
 Some of the 026 punches and EAM equipment was in the back hallways of Merritt 
 until 1980s.  I did not have storage space to save anything, and they tried 
 to fire the guy who pulled the other PDP from the dumpster.
 
 I don't know what Laney was using.  Berkeley City College didn't exist at 
 that time; it was established later and was known as Vista College until 
 2006, when it finally got its own building (on Center Street, instead of 
 Milvia).
 
 We suggested a delay in the name change from Vista to BCC with both names in 
 use:
 1) like a restaurant or retail establishment, a name change simultaneous with 
 a move might save on stationery (which as expected, they didn't replace right 
 away anyway) , but in terms of public, it is more like closing down and a new 
 one opening.  THAT was borne out by enrollments.
 2) release of Windoze Vista.  Our most heavily populated classes were job 
 training for the digital sweatshop, and we could have advertised, Vista is 
 the best place to learn Vista!
 
 I taught programming in all campuses of Peralta (Merritt, Laney, College Of 
 Alameda, Vista/BCC) from 1981 - 2013.  My pension is handled by the state 
 (secure unless Mew Whitman gets elected), but my health benefits are run by 
 Peralta, so kinda risky.
 
 --
 Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
 
 

Re: IBM 1620

[Fred Cisin]

On Thu, 27 Aug 2015, Kevin Tikker wrote:

I went to both Laney and Berkeley City College so you may have a clue.
Thank you


If you actually want to follow-up on such tenuous leads, . . .
Wil Price would know what happened to the 1620 and 1401.  So would Ben 
Micallef and Jack Olson, but they're dead.


I guess that it may have been in the move up onto the hill in 1972? that 
Merritt switched to DEC.  Reliability of the PDP suffered from a bad disk 
drive, so it was replaced in 1983 with a few RJE terminals and a lot of 
5150s.


In 1983, the PDP with drive that never worked reliably, was sold to 
Richmond schools (to pay for 5150s).  PGE didn't fully understand the 
difference between Delta and Y three-phase.  But, in exchange for going 
along with lie that it was struck by lightning during installation (no 
other lightning strikes within miles for 100 years), PGE magnanimously 
(with tax break) bought Richmond schools a new one.


Some of the 026 punches and EAM equipment was in the back hallways of 
Merritt until 1980s.  I did not have storage space to save anything, and 
they tried to fire the guy who pulled the other PDP from the dumpster.


I don't know what Laney was using.  Berkeley City College didn't exist at 
that time; it was established later and was known as Vista College until 
2006, when it finally got its own building (on Center Street, instead of 
Milvia).


We suggested a delay in the name change from Vista to BCC with both names 
in use:
1) like a restaurant or retail establishment, a name change simultaneous 
with a move might save on stationery (which as expected, they didn't 
replace right away anyway) , but in terms of public, it is more 
like closing down and a new one opening.  THAT was borne out by 
enrollments.
2) release of Windoze Vista.  Our most heavily populated classes were job 
training for the digital sweatshop, and we could have advertised, Vista 
is the best place to learn Vista!


I taught programming in all campuses of Peralta (Merritt, Laney, College 
Of Alameda, Vista/BCC) from 1981 - 2013.  My pension is handled by the 
state (secure unless Mew Whitman gets elected), but my health benefits are 
run by Peralta, so kinda risky.


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

Re: CDC-160 (was Re: IBM 1620)

[Kevin Tikker]

Which government agency?


Sent from my iPhone

 On Aug 28, 2015, at 5:15 AM, ben bfranc...@jetnet.ab.ca wrote:
 
 On 8/28/2015 3:14 AM, P Gebhardt wrote:
 We all KNOW the government people still have one running
 for your tax . After all the bribes and shady dealings
 it gets turned on twice a year. Too old to have the Y2000 bug.
 Ben.
 
 
 
 
 

Re: CDC-160 (was Re: IBM 1620)

[Jay Jaeger]

On 8/28/2015 2:00 PM, Kevin Tikker wrote:
 Which government agency?
 
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
 On Aug 28, 2015, at 5:15 AM, ben bfranc...@jetnet.ab.ca wrote:

 On 8/28/2015 3:14 AM, P Gebhardt wrote:
 We all KNOW the government people still have one running
 for your tax . After all the bribes and shady dealings
 it gets turned on twice a year. Too old to have the Y2000 bug.
 Ben.




I expect that Ben's posting was a joke directed at the IRS.

Re: IBM 1620

[Fred Cisin]

On Fri, 28 Aug 2015, Kevin Tikker wrote:
I attended Vista at both locations the main building and the basement of 
the former Ross store. The new building was a mess, half finished, 
poorly designed and with the video studio poorly built.


It is now a mess, half finished (unwired handicap door buttons, etc.), and 
poorly designed.   The signs for ALS, and amplified and TTY phones were 
put up, but there is not a single public telephone in the building.
One of the entrances to the library was mis-prepped as an exit and can not 
be locked, and it is impossible to get the plans changed to allow fixing 
it.


Thanks for the info on the 1620. Petals is such a vast organization it's 
entirely possible some 1620 lurks in some dark, dank unfinished space.


Not within Peralta.  Corporate culture of destruction and erasing of the 
past.  We retrieved some stuff from the dark, dank tunnels 
at Merritt (and they tried to fire one guy for dumpster diving)


Laney is too obsessed with throwing things away and changing, just for the 
sake of changing.  Guarded dumpsters, cleared often.  Couldn't save some 
broken (needed toner cartridge) almost current LaserJets.  Did save (for 
the CIS department) a projector that needed its signal cord repaired -
almost got fired for soldering a DE15, in a well-ventilated non-flammable 
workroom; if I hadn't been there that day, it would have been scrapped.


College Of Alameda was built without adequate dark storage.
Last of the 5170s is long gone.

Nothing bigger nor more interesting than generic PCs (primarily HPaq) were 
ever moved into the BCC spaces.  No word on the DisplayWriters that 
used to be in the Milvia building.  The other space was temporary lease, 
now gone; long before it was a Ross and later Walgreen's, it was a 
JCPenney's.


District Office has occasionally had a few interesting things, but not any 
more.  Used to be a 4381? there.



There ARE some interesting things in dark, dank storage spaces in UC.

CCSF used to have some interesting stuff, such as Honeywell mainframe. 
But, has recently had VERY thorough clearing out due to the Barbara Beno 
(accreditation Commission) pressure.


Heard that some folk at DeAnza/Foothill squirreled away some goodies.

Don't know the current state of stuff at Contra Costa Colleges nor SF 
State.



--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

Re: IBM 1620

[ben]

On 8/27/2015 2:46 AM, Kevin Tikker wrote:

Looking for an IBM 1620 to purchase. Any leads greatly appreciate.

Kevin Tikker


Sent from my iPhone


Sending from a Telephone, would have worked when they were shiny and
new. Good luck Digging for one.

Re: IBM 1620

[Ben Sinclair]

The CHM has a bit of information, and links to three other 1620's that
they know about:
http://www.computerhistory.org/projects/ibm_1620/ibm1620/

From what I've been reading, there may be only one operational 1620
right now, but the CHM is also trying to restore one.



On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 2:07 PM, Dave G4UGM dave.g4...@gmail.com wrote:


 -Original Message-
 From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of william
 degnan
 Sent: 27 August 2015 20:00
 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
 cctalk@classiccmp.org
 Subject: Re: IBM 1620

 How many exist on Earth at this point?


 Three or four perhaps? Rare and Valuable perhaps


 On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 1:56 PM, ben bfranc...@jetnet.ab.ca wrote:
  On 8/27/2015 2:46 AM, Kevin Tikker wrote:
 
  Looking for an IBM 1620 to purchase. Any leads greatly appreciate.
 
  Kevin Tikker
 
 
  Sent from my iPhone
 
 
  Sending from a Telephone, would have worked when they were shiny and
  new. Good luck Digging for one.
 
 



 --
 Bill
 vintagecomputer.net




-- 
Ben Sinclair
b...@bensinclair.com

Re: IBM 1620

[william degnan]

How many exist on Earth at this point?

On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 1:56 PM, ben bfranc...@jetnet.ab.ca wrote:
 On 8/27/2015 2:46 AM, Kevin Tikker wrote:

 Looking for an IBM 1620 to purchase. Any leads greatly appreciate.

 Kevin Tikker


 Sent from my iPhone


 Sending from a Telephone, would have worked when they were shiny and
 new. Good luck Digging for one.





-- 
Bill
vintagecomputer.net

RE: IBM 1620

[Dave G4UGM]

 -Original Message-
 From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of william
 degnan
 Sent: 27 August 2015 20:00
 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
 cctalk@classiccmp.org
 Subject: Re: IBM 1620
 
 How many exist on Earth at this point?


Three or four perhaps? Rare and Valuable perhaps

 
 On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 1:56 PM, ben bfranc...@jetnet.ab.ca wrote:
  On 8/27/2015 2:46 AM, Kevin Tikker wrote:
 
  Looking for an IBM 1620 to purchase. Any leads greatly appreciate.
 
  Kevin Tikker
 
 
  Sent from my iPhone
 
 
  Sending from a Telephone, would have worked when they were shiny and
  new. Good luck Digging for one.
 
 
 
 
 
 --
 Bill
 vintagecomputer.net

Re: IBM 1620

[Jay Jaeger]

On 8/27/2015 3:49 PM, william degnan wrote:

 I'd like a 1620 too please.  .. or a 1710 if I have to settle.
 
 In all seriousness I may not have the machines but I do have a lot of
 1401/1620/1710 docs on hand in my little private library here in
 Landenberg, should anyone be passing this way.  For now I have to settle
 for that.
 
 I'll bet a case of beer that there is an old IBM or UNIVAC languishing out
 there in a Cuban office building basement ... somewhere. * That would be
 the best bet as to where you can find a 1620.*
 
 b
 

Nah.  Probably sent them all to Russia to be reverse engineered - two
generations too late.  ;)  But one might find a Russian 360 clone
floating around Cuba, I suppose.

JRJ

Re: IBM 1620

[william degnan]

heh...well I didn't say it was a *good* chance, but one can always hope...

On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 5:54 PM, Jay Jaeger cu...@charter.net wrote:

 On 8/27/2015 3:49 PM, william degnan wrote:

  I'd like a 1620 too please.  .. or a 1710 if I have to settle.
 
  In all seriousness I may not have the machines but I do have a lot of
  1401/1620/1710 docs on hand in my little private library here in
  Landenberg, should anyone be passing this way.  For now I have to settle
  for that.
 
  I'll bet a case of beer that there is an old IBM or UNIVAC languishing
 out
  there in a Cuban office building basement ... somewhere. * That would be
  the best bet as to where you can find a 1620.*
 
  b
 

 Nah.  Probably sent them all to Russia to be reverse engineered - two
 generations too late.  ;)  But one might find a Russian 360 clone
 floating around Cuba, I suppose.

 JRJ




-- 
Bill
vintagecomputer.net

Re: IBM 1620

[Jon Elson]

On 08/27/2015 09:18 PM, Kevin Tikker wrote:

Thanks very much for the link. Maybe there is one out there


I believe Lewis and Clark College in Godfrey, IL had a 1620 
that I saw in about 1980.  I have no idea if anyone in the 
area still has it.


Jon

Re: IBM 1620

[Fred Cisin]

There were two IBM 1620's in the College of Engineering in Madison, WI

On Thu, 27 Aug 2015, Kevin Tikker wrote:

A possible lead?


There was one at Merritt College in Oakland during the days when the Black 
Panthers started out there.


If you make a list of every one that there was, you're still not likely 
to track one down.

But, have fun trying.

Re: IBM 1620

[Jay Jaeger]

On 8/27/2015 9:18 PM, Kevin Tikker wrote:

 Thanks very much for the link. Maybe there is one out there
 

There were two IBM 1620's in the College of Engineering in Madison, WI
when I started school, and rumor was that one of them ended up in
somebody's basement. Whether or not that rumor was true, and if so, if
it is still around, or not, I have no idea.

(Rumor was that there was also a CDC-160A in somebody's basement here in
town, as well).

Both of these rumors date back 30+ years, though.

JRJ

Re: IBM 1620

[Chuck Guzis]

On 08/27/2015 09:02 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:

There were two IBM 1620's in the College of Engineering in
Madison, WI

On Thu, 27 Aug 2015, Kevin Tikker wrote:

A possible lead?


There was one at Merritt College in Oakland during the days when the
 Black Panthers started out there.


...and let's not forget all of the 1620 panels that were used in the 
film The Forbin Project...


--Chuck

Re: IBM 1620

[Lyle Bickley]

On Thu, 27 Aug 2015 14:28:30 -0500
Ben Sinclair b...@bensinclair.com wrote:

 The CHM has a bit of information, and links to three other 1620's that
 they know about:
 http://www.computerhistory.org/projects/ibm_1620/ibm1620/
 
 From what I've been reading, there may be only one operational 1620
 right now, but the CHM is also trying to restore one.

The IBM 1620 at the CHM is a running computer. There were two teams that worked 
on the 1620 at the CHM. The first Team got it running. Unfortunately, IBM used 
the wrong kind of solder on the core memory and so the wires of the core memory 
literally dissolved.

Modern memory was used to replace the original core memory and an interface to 
a PC was created and used to emulate peripheral devices. It ran as a demo 
system for several years when the CHM was in its public Visible Storage 
phase. 

A second Team - of which I was a member - worked to enhance the 1620's 
peripheral device interfaces and ultimately create new controllers for such 
devices as an IBM plotter. We also were trying to come up with demos that would 
make the IBM 1620 interesting to the general public (and not just techies or 
folks who had an emotional connection with the 1620).

At the same time, the CHM was also working to complete its IBM-1401 restoration 
(including many pieces of Unit Record gear) - and IBM 1401, DEC PDP-1 and 
Babbage public demos 

Many of us on the 1620 Team were also on other restoration Teams - and As time 
progressed, it became clear that the IBM 1620, while a running computer, was 
not as demonstrable as the other systems. That - and many of us simply ran out 
of time working on it. So our running IBM 1620 ended up in our storage facility 
rather than as a public CHM demo system.

It is entirely possible that at a future date it will again become a public 
demonstration system..

Cheers,
Lyle

 On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 2:07 PM, Dave G4UGM dave.g4...@gmail.com wrote:
 
   
  -Original Message-
  From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of william
  degnan
  Sent: 27 August 2015 20:00
  To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
  cctalk@classiccmp.org
  Subject: Re: IBM 1620
 
  How many exist on Earth at this point?  
 
 
  Three or four perhaps? Rare and Valuable perhaps
   
 
  On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 1:56 PM, ben bfranc...@jetnet.ab.ca wrote:  
   On 8/27/2015 2:46 AM, Kevin Tikker wrote:  
  
   Looking for an IBM 1620 to purchase. Any leads greatly appreciate.
  
   Kevin Tikker
  
  
   Sent from my iPhone  
  
  
   Sending from a Telephone, would have worked when they were shiny and
   new. Good luck Digging for one.
  

 
 
 
  --
  Bill
  vintagecomputer.net  
   
 
 
 



-- 
73  AF6WS
Bickley Consulting West Inc.
http://bickleywest.com

Black holes are where God is dividing by zero

Re: IBM 1620

[Kevin Tikker]

I went to both Laney and Berkeley City College so you may have a clue.

Thank you

Kevin 

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 27, 2015, at 9:02 PM, Fred Cisin ci...@xenosoft.com wrote:

 There were two IBM 1620's in the College of Engineering in Madison, WI
 On Thu, 27 Aug 2015, Kevin Tikker wrote:
 
 A possible lead?
 
 There was one at Merritt College in Oakland during the days when the Black 
 Panthers started out there.
 
 If you make a list of every one that there was, you're still not likely to 
 track one down.
 But, have fun trying.
 
 
 
 
 

Re: IBM 1620

[Kevin Tikker]

Great series of books the film was based on


Sent from my iPhone

 On Aug 27, 2015, at 9:28 PM, Chuck Guzis ccl...@sydex.com wrote:
 
 On 08/27/2015 09:02 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
 There were two IBM 1620's in the College of Engineering in
 Madison, WI
 On Thu, 27 Aug 2015, Kevin Tikker wrote:
 A possible lead?
 
 There was one at Merritt College in Oakland during the days when the
 Black Panthers started out there.
 
 ...and let's not forget all of the 1620 panels that were used in the film 
 The Forbin Project...
 
 --Chuck

Re: IBM 1620

[Kevin Tikker]

Thanks very much for the link. Maybe there is one out there

Sent from my iPhone

 On Aug 27, 2015, at 12:28 PM, Ben Sinclair b...@bensinclair.com wrote:
 
 The CHM has a bit of information, and links to three other 1620's that
 they know about:
 http://www.computerhistory.org/projects/ibm_1620/ibm1620/
 
 From what I've been reading, there may be only one operational 1620
 right now, but the CHM is also trying to restore one.
 
 
 
 On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 2:07 PM, Dave G4UGM dave.g4...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of william
 degnan
 Sent: 27 August 2015 20:00
 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
 cctalk@classiccmp.org
 Subject: Re: IBM 1620
 
 How many exist on Earth at this point?
 
 
 Three or four perhaps? Rare and Valuable perhaps
 
 
 On Thu, Aug 27, 2015 at 1:56 PM, ben bfranc...@jetnet.ab.ca wrote:
 On 8/27/2015 2:46 AM, Kevin Tikker wrote:
 
 Looking for an IBM 1620 to purchase. Any leads greatly appreciate.
 
 Kevin Tikker
 
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
 
 Sending from a Telephone, would have worked when they were shiny and
 new. Good luck Digging for one.
 
 
 
 --
 Bill
 vintagecomputer.net
 
 
 
 -- 
 Ben Sinclair
 b...@bensinclair.com

Re: IBM 1620

[Kevin Tikker]

A possible lead?

Sent from my iPhone

 On Aug 27, 2015, at 7:41 PM, Jay Jaeger cu...@charter.net wrote:
 
 On 8/27/2015 9:18 PM, Kevin Tikker wrote:
 
 Thanks very much for the link. Maybe there is one out there
 
 There were two IBM 1620's in the College of Engineering in Madison, WI
 when I started school, and rumor was that one of them ended up in
 somebody's basement. Whether or not that rumor was true, and if so, if
 it is still around, or not, I have no idea.
 
 (Rumor was that there was also a CDC-160A in somebody's basement here in
 town, as well).
 
 Both of these rumors date back 30+ years, though.
 
 JRJ