Re: x86/DOS system backup via rs232?

[Fred Cisin]

connected them with a Laplink parallel cable (I've still got a box of
them).

On Sat, 14 Nov 2015, Jules Richardson wrote:
Roughly what length are the cables? And do you know if they do anything 
special internally regarding shielding of the data lines?


They, and those of other similar products, were 3 to 6 feet long.  There 
is no special shielding requirement up to about 10 feet, or unless you 
have extreme electrical noise next to them.


I think I should probably wire one up, and I have various old printer cables 
etc. laying around to use for donor parts, but I expect that data skew is a 
problem over any significant distance.


So, bring the two computers to within 10 feet of each other.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LapLink_cable


Before MICROS~1 included an imitation in MS-DOS 6.00, . . .
Traveling Software created "Laplink"

Re: x86/DOS system backup via rs232?

[Jules Richardson]

On 11/13/2015 11:56 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:

connected them with a Laplink parallel cable (I've still got a box of
them).


Roughly what length are the cables? And do you know if they do anything 
special internally regarding shielding of the data lines?


I think I should probably wire one up, and I have various old printer 
cables etc. laying around to use for donor parts, but I expect that data 
skew is a problem over any significant distance.


(I'm not sure if a clone of intersvr exists for Linux, but I *think* I can 
run dosemu and map it to the native parallel port anyway)


cheers

Jules

Re: x86/DOS system backup via rs232?

[william degnan]

On Nov 13, 2015 9:13 AM, "Johnny Billquist"  wrote:
>
> On 2015-11-13 12:36, william degnan wrote:
>>
>> I used to use a program called Laplink, which came with special serial
and
>> parallel option cables to transfer files from one dos  machine to
another.
>> It was useful to "image" DOS computers with it.
>
>
> Ah, thank you. I have been trying to remember that name since this thread
started. I've used extremely little DOS, but I remember seeing LapLink in
there. I think it could even bootstrap itself across a serial port to a
different machine, as long as DOS was installed. And then it could copy
pretty much everything else over.
>
>

I have a copy of the laplink software should anyone need it.  If the cable
for parallel is just a null modem I suggest a person in this hobby
definitely add laplink to the bag of tricks available.  You just fire it up
on both ends ll.exe ...  and you'll see a directory tree of target  machine
on the right, the source machine on the left.  Pick files and copy.  Copies
recursively etc.

Re: x86/DOS system backup via rs232?

[Fred Cisin]

On Sat, 14 Nov 2015, william degnan wrote:

I have a copy of the laplink software should anyone need it.  If the cable
for parallel is just a null modem I suggest a person in this hobby
definitely add laplink to the bag of tricks available.  You just fire it up
on both ends ll.exe ...  and you'll see a directory tree of target  machine
on the right, the source machine on the left.  Pick files and copy.  Copies
recursively etc.


All Centronics ports have 8 bits going one way, and 4 "handshake" bits 
going the other way.


IFF you can run doftware of your choice on both ends of the cable, Laplink 
and its imitators (such as Interlink) can work just fine.
NOTE: I tend to think of Traveling Software's "Laplink" as being "the 
first", but, as always, there's bound to be a few examples of prior art.

(Such as when did Chuck make his?)
The Laplink cable is a "null printer" cable using those 4 bits.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LapLink_cable
it is a defacto standard; Chuck's cable was compatible.

Some Centronics compatible printer ports have bidirectionality of the 8 
data lines, and therefore shouldn't need to do nibble transfers using 
"handshake" signals.  But, you can't always count on the other end having 
that.


And, CAN you run software of your choice on both ends?
Ever try to get document files out of a really alien word processor?
But, sometimes that alien machine, with no practical way to run your 
software might output perfectly normal "centronics" printer output!


About 25 years ago, I put together a somewhat special cable, and "printer 
emulator" software to run on a PC.  With the software running on the PC, 
and special cable, I could simply tell the alien machine that it was 
connected to a simple ASCII printer, and tell it to print the document(s). 
The PC would pretend to be a [very fast] printer, and store whatever was 
coming through that "printer" cable that the alien machine was feeding.


Ran into a couple of problems.  Some machines sent a strobe that was 
so substantially shorter than the standard, that I couldn't respond 
fast enough with polling nor interruptws, so I added a one-shot to the 
cable to extend it to the spec duration for those machines.


I put the cable switch-overs and the oneshot into a hooded 
blue-ribbonF/DB25M adapter, so that it could hang off the back of the PC, 
and the alien printer cable could connect to the blue-ribbon connector.


Then I found out just how futile it was to develop a product that few 
understood.  The purpose was not for doubling Laplink's speed, it was for 
capturing printer output from alien machines.  Many people INSISTED that 
Laplink could install itself through the parallel port onto ANYTHING. 
ABSOLUTELY ANYTHING.  Some of the same people insisted that one of the 
competitors to Chuck's and my programs could read ABSOLTELY ANY disk 
format (disunirregardless of hardware incomapabilities).  A few others 
wanted to know how to connect it to machines that did not connect to 
Centronics compatible printers, including ones with built-in printers.
After 5 days at Comdex, I realized that the people who could appreciate it 
was such an infinitesimal subset of the people who needed it that it was 
unmarketable.


A slightly slower similar solution was already possible by connecting the 
parallel output of the alien machine to a parallel-to-serial printer 
adapter, and then using off-the-shelf serial software on the PC to capture 
that.


So, I never brought the product up to marketable form, and 
XenoComm-Parallel joined XenoFont.  Not with a bang, but a whimper.



--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

Re: x86/DOS system backup via rs232?

[Christian Corti]

On Thu, 12 Nov 2015, Tom Moss wrote:

I've never seen anything works on the sector level, but there are plenty of


There is DITU (Disk-Image Transfer Utility) for MS-DOS, and it's free 
including C source code. I use it e.g. to image the hard disk of a DOS PC 
into a file (either network or parallel ZIP drive).

ftp://ftp.oldskool.org/pub/misc/Hardware/IBM/PCjr%20magazines%20and%20resources/Software/Ditu/
I've modified the program a bit to support retries and TurboC.

Christian

Re: x86/DOS system backup via rs232?

[Fred Cisin]

On Fri, 13 Nov 2015, Johnny Billquist wrote:

(Well, by straight through I mean that they were null-model cables.)

Re: x86/DOS system backup via rs232?

[Charles Anthony]

On Fri, Nov 13, 2015 at 5:08 PM, Jules Richardson <
jules.richardso...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Vintage PCs are just a pain - new enough to make significant use of hard
> disk technology, but old enough that getting the data off them isn't quite
> as trivial as it likely would be on a much newer machine. I do find them
> *just* interesting enough to make it worthwhile trying to create a snapshot
> of how they were used, though (compared to the Win95-and-newer age where
> it's all so incredibly dull)
>
>
Vintage PCs are ot my field of expertise, so just a random thought..

Could you put a 2nd disk drive in the machine, and copy the disk image to
it?

-- Charles

Re: x86/DOS system backup via rs232?

[Jules Richardson]

On 11/12/2015 05:52 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:

On 11/12/2015 01:54 PM, Jules Richardson wrote:


As per subject line, does anyone know of any util that will back up
an x86 PC running some variant of DOS (MS, Compaq etc.) via rs232 to
a remote system? (Linux preferable on the remote, but other options
exist)

I'm not finding anything via Google, but it seems like the sort of
thing that some of the folks here may have done for their systems in
the past.

I'm thinking something that will do a sector-by-sector transfer from
a given partition (maybe only in-use sectors, implying some minor
intelligence on the remote end to covert into a raw image, but "send
 everything" mentality is better than nothing) - extra points for
retrying bad sectors.



Any particular reason that RS232C has to be the linkup?


Just lowest common denominator and based on what I have sitting around here 
(e.g. I don't have any MCA Ethernet boards, or ISA ones that will work on 
an 8 bit XT-type bus, only 16 bit).



There are plenty
of external drives that can use the parallel port with regular software.
For example, hook up a ZIP drive.


Hmm, I *might* know where there's one of those available - I'm not sure 
about cartridges, though (or if it's actually in working condition). The 
backup operation would certainly be quicker, and I am a bit concerned 
whether some of the old ST506/412 drives that I have will remain running 
for the length of time needed to do a serial transfer.



Alternatively, you could boot DOS from floppy with INTERLINK/INTERSVR
installed and use another DOS/WIN machine to do your backup.


My assumption there was that Interlink needs a newer version of DOS, and 
that some of these systems that I have may be incompatible, but maybe it's 
worth me putting that to the test.



I'm certain that options abound.


Yes, I'm sure - just figured I'd ask here as it seems like the sort of nut 
that will already have been cracked :-)


Vintage PCs are just a pain - new enough to make significant use of hard 
disk technology, but old enough that getting the data off them isn't quite 
as trivial as it likely would be on a much newer machine. I do find them 
*just* interesting enough to make it worthwhile trying to create a snapshot 
of how they were used, though (compared to the Win95-and-newer age where 
it's all so incredibly dull)


cheers

Jules

Re: x86/DOS system backup via rs232?

[Josh Dersch]

On Fri, Nov 13, 2015 at 5:08 PM, Jules Richardson <
jules.richardso...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 11/12/2015 05:52 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
>
>> On 11/12/2015 01:54 PM, Jules Richardson wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
> Alternatively, you could boot DOS from floppy with INTERLINK/INTERSVR
>> installed and use another DOS/WIN machine to do your backup.
>>
>
> My assumption there was that Interlink needs a newer version of DOS, and
> that some of these systems that I have may be incompatible, but maybe it's
> worth me putting that to the test.


FWIW, DOS 6.xx will boot on anything 100% PC-compatible, 8088 on up, and it
shouldn't have a problem reading filesystems created by earlier DOS
versions.  Assuming you can write a bootable floppy and get INTERLNK onto
it, that would probably be the easiest option.

- Josh



>
>
> I'm certain that options abound.
>>
>
> Yes, I'm sure - just figured I'd ask here as it seems like the sort of nut
> that will already have been cracked :-)
>
> Vintage PCs are just a pain - new enough to make significant use of hard
> disk technology, but old enough that getting the data off them isn't quite
> as trivial as it likely would be on a much newer machine. I do find them
> *just* interesting enough to make it worthwhile trying to create a snapshot
> of how they were used, though (compared to the Win95-and-newer age where
> it's all so incredibly dull)
>
> cheers
>
> Jules
>
>

Re: x86/DOS system backup via rs232?

[Chuck Guzis]

On 11/13/2015 05:10 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:


FWIW, DOS 6.xx will boot on anything 100% PC-compatible, 8088 on up, and it
shouldn't have a problem reading filesystems created by earlier DOS
versions.  Assuming you can write a bootable floppy and get INTERLNK onto
it, that would probably be the easiest option.


A couple of weeks ago, I dug out an old XT with a Quantum Q540 drive in 
it.  It didn't want to start at first, but a couple of tapes on the side 
of the HDA caused the drive to spin up and come ready.


Not wanting to tempt fate, I copied over the Interlink files from DOS 
6.2 onto the XT system and booted a P3 system here running Win98SE and 
connected them with a Laplink parallel cable (I've still got a box of 
them).  I think I ran interlnk on the XT and intersvr on the 98SE one 
(or maybe it was the reverse).  At any rate I discovered that it was 
indeed possible to transfer files over even though the XT was running 
DOS 4.00 and the 98SE was running from a FAT32 partition.


So yes, it can be done.  Just in case, I also had a network card in the 
XT (an Artisoft AE/2T) and MSLANMAN ready.  But I didn't need it.


I do hope the Q540 will keep running for at least another decade, but if 
it doesn't, I've got the files backed up.  I can always run it with an 
XTIDE card and a small CF card, if worse comes to worst.


--Chuck

Re: x86/DOS system backup via rs232?

[Tom Moss]

This may also be of use: https://www.briggsoft.com/fmdos.htm

On 12 November 2015 at 21:58, Tom Moss  wrote:

> I've never seen anything works on the sector level, but there are plenty
> of terminal emulators that can backup entire directorties with YMODEM batch
> or Kermit.
>
> Is there any paricular reason you want disk imaging capability?
> Bootsectors on DOS can be re-written with the SYS command, so a boot floppy
> of the same version + the terminal emulator should be all you need to do a
> restore.
>
> On 12 November 2015 at 21:54, Jules Richardson <
> jules.richardso...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> As per subject line, does anyone know of any util that will back up an
>> x86 PC running some variant of DOS (MS, Compaq etc.) via rs232 to a remote
>> system? (Linux preferable on the remote, but other options exist)
>>
>> I'm not finding anything via Google, but it seems like the sort of thing
>> that some of the folks here may have done for their systems in the past.
>>
>> I'm thinking something that will do a sector-by-sector transfer from a
>> given partition (maybe only in-use sectors, implying some minor
>> intelligence on the remote end to covert into a raw image, but "send
>> everything" mentality is better than nothing) - extra points for retrying
>> bad sectors.
>>
>> cheers
>>
>> Jules
>>
>
>

x86/DOS system backup via rs232?

[Jules Richardson]

As per subject line, does anyone know of any util that will back up an x86 
PC running some variant of DOS (MS, Compaq etc.) via rs232 to a remote 
system? (Linux preferable on the remote, but other options exist)


I'm not finding anything via Google, but it seems like the sort of thing 
that some of the folks here may have done for their systems in the past.


I'm thinking something that will do a sector-by-sector transfer from a 
given partition (maybe only in-use sectors, implying some minor 
intelligence on the remote end to covert into a raw image, but "send 
everything" mentality is better than nothing) - extra points for retrying 
bad sectors.


cheers

Jules

Re: x86/DOS system backup via rs232?

[Mouse]

> As per subject line, does anyone know of any util that will back up
> an x86 PC running some variant of DOS (MS, Compaq etc.) via rs232 to
> a remote system?  (Linux preferable on the remote, but other options
> exist)

Bring up a liveCD or moral equivalent and run SLIP, then do any of many
networked-backup variants?  SLIP at 115200 is only about 1% of a 10Mb
Ethernet, but that may be enough to be useful, especially if you
compress.

Alternatively, maybe move the DOS disk to the other machine and copy it
there with dd or moral equivalent?

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RE: x86/DOS system backup via rs232?

[Cindy Croxton]

We used to back up to serial attached devices, such as tape drives or a
serially attached hard drive, but I never did it to a different operating
system, sorry.

-Original Message-
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules
Richardson
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 3:54 PM
To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
Subject: x86/DOS system backup via rs232?



As per subject line, does anyone know of any util that will back up an x86
PC running some variant of DOS (MS, Compaq etc.) via rs232 to a remote
system? (Linux preferable on the remote, but other options exist)

I'm not finding anything via Google, but it seems like the sort of thing
that some of the folks here may have done for their systems in the past.

I'm thinking something that will do a sector-by-sector transfer from a given
partition (maybe only in-use sectors, implying some minor intelligence on
the remote end to covert into a raw image, but "send everything" mentality
is better than nothing) - extra points for retrying bad sectors.

cheers

Jules


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

Re: x86/DOS system backup via rs232?

[Warner Losh]

On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 3:05 PM, Mouse  wrote:

> > As per subject line, does anyone know of any util that will back up
> > an x86 PC running some variant of DOS (MS, Compaq etc.) via rs232 to
> > a remote system?  (Linux preferable on the remote, but other options
> > exist)
>
> Bring up a liveCD or moral equivalent and run SLIP, then do any of many
> networked-backup variants?  SLIP at 115200 is only about 1% of a 10Mb
> Ethernet, but that may be enough to be useful, especially if you
> compress


10kb/s is about 800MB/day  (rounded down), or roughly 1CD / day.

Warner

Re: x86/DOS system backup via rs232?

[Mouse]

>> Bring up a liveCD or moral equivalent and run SLIP, then do any of
>> many networked-backup variants?
> Hmm, was SLIP an option for DOS TCP/IP stacks?

I meant for the livecd to be on the usually-running-DOS machine.  But
see below.

Of course, if you have the ability to add hardware, you might be able
to pop an Ethernet in to the machine.  But you specified serial

> I'm not sure if something with e.g. an 8088 CPU can even come close
> to that - maybe 9600, tops.

Yes, if it's _that_ old, it may be difficult to find a livecd that will
run.  Perhaps minix?

It also might be worth investigating to see if any of the [xyz]modem
implementations would be willing to read directly from a disk.

> I'd be expecting several hours of transfer for a typical 20MB
> ST506-type drive,

At 9600, assuming no loss to framing, error detection/correction, and
the like, my arithmetic says 20MB should take a little over 6 hours.

>> Alternatively, maybe move the DOS disk to the other machine and copy
>> it there with dd or moral equivalent?
> For anything modern with IDE or SCSI, sure, but not so easy for
> ST506/ST412/ESDI :(

True enough.

However, I _think_ some old Sun and MicroVAX machines play in that
space; I've seen Qbus hardware that talks to drives with card-edge
connectors and I've seen SCSI-to-cardedge interfaces on Suns of
Sun-3/260 vintage.  I don't know the details of ST506, ESDI, and all
that, but it strikes me as at least _possible_ that something in that
line might be able to help.

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Re: x86/DOS system backup via rs232?

[Fred Cisin]

On Thu, 12 Nov 2015, Mouse wrote:

However, I _think_ some old Sun and MicroVAX machines play in that
space; I've seen Qbus hardware that talks to drives with card-edge
connectors and I've seen SCSI-to-cardedge interfaces on Suns of
Sun-3/260 vintage.  I don't know the details of ST506, ESDI, and all
that, but it strikes me as at least _possible_ that something in that
line might be able to help.


If the hard disk is an XT ST506/412 interfaced drive, using the original 
OEM IBM hard disk controller (made by Xebec), then it can be easily 
switched to another XT using the original OEM IBM hard disk controller. 
Other hard disk controllers, including other models from Xebec!, may not 
recognize the format!
Other controllers could probably read at a sector level, iff you're 
willing to write some minor INT13h routines.   (some number sectors from 
0, some from 1, etc.)



AT hard drives (OEM controller is WD) seem to be reasonably 
interchangeable from one machine to another.


ESDI (mostly WD -7 controllers) will probably interchange.

RLL will often not work with a different make controller.

Re: x86/DOS system backup via rs232?

[Al Kossow]

On 11/12/15 4:00 PM, Mouse wrote:


However, I _think_ some old Sun and MicroVAX machines play in that
space; I've seen Qbus hardware that talks to drives with card-edge
connectors and I've seen SCSI-to-cardedge interfaces on Suns of
Sun-3/260 vintage.  I don't know the details of ST506, ESDI, and all
that, but it strikes me as at least _possible_ that something in that
line might be able to help.



Not really. Sun used Adaptec 4000's for MFM and Emulex MD21 for ESDI
DEC did its own thing, Emulex sold into that space with MFM/ESDI but
with their own formats.

Dave G's MFM emulator could read it, but just finding a serial block
transfer program that can cope with bad sectors would probably be easiest.
It wouldn't even be that difficult to write one if the system still knows
about the disk geometry in the CMOS RAM and you can use BIOS calls.