Re: [CentOS-docs] need a TOC
On Wed, 26 Sep 2007, Phil Schaffner wrote: > On Wed, 2007-09-26 at 14:03 +0200, Ralph Angenendt wrote: > > Akemi Yagi wrote: > > > I think that this page needs a TOC: > > > > > > http://wiki.centos.org/HowTos/Nagios > > > > I still think that this wiki is a wiki. > > And it is still a Wiki that presents "Immutable Page" on the "Actions" > bar to most viewers and potential editors, even those who are > contributors in other areas. Personally I have been much less active in > contributing to the Wiki, due to the hurdle of having to ask for > permission in every new instance, than I might have been with more open > access. > > I understand that general write/create/modify access permissions have > resulted in abuses in the past, requiring the limitations, but still > maintain that contributors "in good standing" (conditions TBD, but not > TOO tight - can always be demoted :-) should be granted a higher level > of access. This approach would also decrease the workload on those who > must grant permission on a case-by-case basis. If some authors are > reluctant to subscribe to the openness of the Wiki philosophy within > these limits, their pages could presumable have a higher level of > protection. I admit to ignorance as to the details of how this could be > implemented on this "MoinMoin Powered" Wiki. Phill, I agree with you. The problem is how to establish trust, or how to establish trust when you are not allowed to do anything. I think trust could be based not only on merit, but also on the person's behaviour in the community (CentOS or maybe even more widely). This may be necessary on a case-by-case basis. -- -- dag wieers, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: CentOS Wiki Access [was Re: [CentOS-docs] need a TOC]
On Thu, 27 Sep 2007, Ralph Angenendt wrote: > Phil Schaffner wrote: > > Agree. Perhaps I was not sufficiently explicit, but in my mind the > > process might be something like this: > > > > 1. Join the -docs list and offer to contribute something. > > 2. Implement the contribution and respond to comments. > > 3. Remain active for some probationary period, TBD. > > 4. Request members Wiki access granting privileges to edit existing > > pages not explicitly protected and create new pages in "public" areas of > > the Wiki. [1] > > 5. Agree to conditions (TBD) for such access, as determined by the core > > developers or other designated responsible parties. > > 6. Continue to actively participate as a good citizen of the community. > > This will happen from now on. I'm going to watch over who contributes > what where and will give away elevated rights then. Think about it as a > "benevolent dictatorship" :) > > And feel free to jostle me (all of you) if you think I overlooked > someone. I think it would be very useful to have a Documentation (and a Promo) SIG. And have a seperate part of the wiki for SIG information. Eg. who is part of it, how to join and procedure to get access. Having this for the Virtualisation, Documentation, Promo and who knows what other SIGs there will be, helps to have some transparency for newcomers and people from other SIGs. And identify people you can talk to regarding the SIG. PS Did I already mention adding photos to you personal wiki page and the SIG memberlist ;-) -- -- dag wieers, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
[CentOS-docs] Wiki restructure
Hi all, Now that there is an effort underway to improve the look/theme of the Wiki. I would like to discuss the content of the wiki. IMO there are too many links on the frontpage. With a new theme, the News/Events items on top can go into a sidebar, so that will be taken care of the news items. I will not discuss them here. But currently, there is little structure in all the links/titles on the Frontpage and that is, to say the least, confusing. I would prefer to end up with a Frontpage that lists up to 7 subsections on the front page and moves most of the other links to one of these subsections. I would propose something like this: http://wiki.centos.org/FrontPageProposal and move everything to the subsections (maybe even move page references to fit in these subsections). With a change like this, the wiki will become much more straightforward to new users and hopefully will encourage people to contribute. What do people think ? -- -- dag wieers, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] Wiki restructure
On Thu, 27 Sep 2007, Nick Sklav wrote: > On Fri, 2007-09-28 at 01:15 +0200, Dag Wieers wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > Now that there is an effort underway to improve the look/theme of the > > Wiki. I would like to discuss the content of the wiki. > > > > IMO there are too many links on the frontpage. With a new theme, the > > News/Events items on top can go into a sidebar, so that will be taken care > > of the news items. I will not discuss them here. > > > > But currently, there is little structure in all the links/titles on the > > Frontpage and that is, to say the least, confusing. > > > > I would prefer to end up with a Frontpage that lists up to 7 subsections > > on the front page and moves most of the other links to one of these > > subsections. > > > > I would propose something like this: > > > > http://wiki.centos.org/FrontPageProposal > > > > and move everything to the subsections (maybe even move page references to > > fit in these subsections). With a change like this, the wiki will become > > much more straightforward to new users and hopefully will encourage people > > to contribute. > > > > What do people think ? > > It's nice, but I think that a more enterprise look is in order. im just > stating an opinion and prefer not to get shot over this. but this is > enterprise class os. what i am thinking is more clean and segmented > website. as things are now im just not thrilled with it its good to the > point but nothing eye catching. What im thinking is a total redesign of > the site and wiki, i might not be super qualified for the job. But i can > assist. > > They should be integrated under the new look, simple to navigate. The looks and the website are explicitely not the subject of this mail. They are being addressed in a seperate effort, this mail is about the content and structure. But I do agree with your opinion. -- -- dag wieers, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] Wiki restructure
On Fri, 28 Sep 2007, Tru Huynh wrote: > On Fri, Sep 28, 2007 at 10:38:37AM +0200, Ralph Angenendt wrote: > > Dag Wieers wrote: > > > I would prefer to end up with a Frontpage that lists up to 7 subsections > > > on the front page and moves most of the other links to one of these > > > subsections. > > > Then at least a rather big "about CentOS" section should be on there. > > This is not enough information for a front page (well, at least for me). > > > Some icons like the netbsd wiki? > http://wiki.netbsd.se/index.php/Main_Page Icons would really be nice, however we need to define the structure before we can think of creating the artwork for it. Especially since we have not many Artwork people involved yet :) How about we modify the FrontPageProposal, fill in the subsections (eg. DownloadProposal, DocumentationProposal, ...) and then evaluate again until we are done. In the best case we have all the information from the website pumped into the wiki in well-defined subsections. -- -- dag wieers, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] Wiki restructure
On Fri, 28 Sep 2007, Ralph Angenendt wrote: > Dag Wieers wrote: > > But the news-items will move to a sidepane anyway, when we have a theme. > > I am not sure how you want to do that. It's no problem moving links to a > side pane (although I hate sidepanes), but for that you have to edit the > wiki config, those aren't fillable via normal wiki edits. It must be possible to extend a wiki with own macros. There are addons for MoinMoin to show a month-calendar and things like that. You can get information from an RSS feed or something else. My intention is to have 2 boxes, one for upcoming events and one for latest news items. In fact, it would also be nice to have the planet feed (last 3 posts or so) on the wiki as well. Just to show things are moving even though the frontpage is in essence a static page anyway. -- -- dag wieers, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] Wiki restructure
On Fri, 28 Sep 2007, Ralph Angenendt wrote: > Dag Wieers wrote: > > I would prefer to end up with a Frontpage that lists up to 7 subsections > > on the front page and moves most of the other links to one of these > > subsections. > > > > I would propose something like this: > > > > http://wiki.centos.org/FrontPageProposal > > I hope you're not serious about the colors. I for one cannot really read > the first line, the links in that aren't visible to me at all. Feel free to improve. These are the original colors from the logo. Making them a little softer should work. But the news-items will move to a sidepane anyway, when we have a theme. The mail was more about the idea of limiting the number of links on the front page. > > and move everything to the subsections (maybe even move page references to > > fit in these subsections). With a change like this, the wiki will become > > much more straightforward to new users and hopefully will encourage people > > to contribute. > > Then at least a rather big "about CentOS" section should be on there. > This is not enough information for a front page (well, at least for me). It depends on how you look at it. It could be as part of the "Contribute to CentOS". Or the important information could be in the FAQ. I guess an About CentOS subsection would be useful, if there's not too much overlap with other subsections. What information would it link to ? -- -- dag wieers, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] Wiki restructure
On Fri, 28 Sep 2007, Dag Wieers wrote: > On Fri, 28 Sep 2007, Ralph Angenendt wrote: > > > Dag Wieers wrote: > > > I would prefer to end up with a Frontpage that lists up to 7 subsections > > > on the front page and moves most of the other links to one of these > > > subsections. > > > > > > I would propose something like this: > > > > > > http://wiki.centos.org/FrontPageProposal > > > > I hope you're not serious about the colors. I for one cannot really read > > the first line, the links in that aren't visible to me at all. > > Feel free to improve. These are the original colors from the logo. Making > them a little softer should work. Do you still have this problem ? I made all the colors softer and the text should be much better now. But again, with the new theme and all, these items should move away from the body of the wiki. Thanks for the feedback, -- -- dag wieers, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] HowTo: Samba with ADS security in CentOS 5
On Mon, 1 Oct 2007, Daniel Lindgren wrote: > I have recently gone through the hassle of trying to get a CentOS 5 server > (no gui) with Samba to use ADS for security. After several days of googling > and trying different howtos I finally got it working, I now want to write a > howto for CentOS 5, Samba 3.0 and Windows Server 2003 SP2. > > Basically it's a combination of > http://www.howtoforge.com/samba_ads_security_mode and > http://us1.samba.org/samba/docs/man/Samba-HOWTO-Collection/winbind.html, > with additions that actually make things work. Consider me a reviewer. I am very interested in your contribution ! -- -- dag wieers, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] Wiki deuglification Part I
On Wed, 3 Oct 2007, Ralph Angenendt wrote: > I toyed around with the Wiki today to deuglify it a little bit. I used a > theme which is a bit of a "CMS" theme for MoinMoin and played around > with the logo colors. > > The theme is based on the plsavez theme, which I like as it has a very > uncluttered interface for people who aren't logged in - they only see > some important interwiki links (FrontPage, RecentChanges and so on), > while all the other stuff is hidden from them. > > That changes as soon as you log into the wiki - then everything needed > is there again. > > The "Current Events" table has its own css style, so we should be able > to move it around or do other stuff with it. At the moment the style is > only used for the background colour. > > The result is, errm, a bit colorful at the moment, but that can be > changed :) > > Your opinions and critique please: <http://wiki-m.centos.org/>. I liked it already over the current one ! But: - I do not like the colors all that much, I prefer something more sober and professional - I like the font and size - I do not like the globe for external links - I prefer to have titles either in bold or underline, currently I find it hard to see what actually is a title - I would go for normal (default) colors for links (and underline them) - I do think a menu/sidebar that follows some structure of the site is important, also to house some other info like events and blog posts If you visit without being logged in: - I would remove the Tabs (RecentChanges, FindPage, SiteNavigation, HelpContents) - I am not a proponent for showing 'MoinMoin powered, Python powered, Valid HTML 4.01' on every webpage. The wiki is not for geeks. There is little value in showing it on every page. I couldn't log on to test. -- -- dag wieers, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] Wiki deuglification Part I
On Thu, 4 Oct 2007, Ralph Angenendt wrote: > Dag Wieers wrote: > > On Wed, 3 Oct 2007, Ralph Angenendt wrote: > > I liked it already over the current one ! But: > > > > - I do not like the colors all that much, I prefer something more sober > >and professional > > Hey, you began with the colors on the current wiki >;) > > But on the other hand - what are "professional" colors? Not to many different colors and more importantly, not everything in different colors :) I didn't mean professional colors, I meant that the look and feel should be somewhat more sober and professional. The artwork and colors should not distract you from the content, the content should be enjoyable to read. (not look dull because of the theme) > > - I would go for normal (default) colors for links (and underline them) > > I like it the way it is - underline them if the mouse hovers over them. > It helps still being readable if links occur in larger texts - > underlining them hinders the reading flow (in my opinion). I can suppress my personal opinion on this :) > > - I do think a menu/sidebar that follows some structure of the site is > >important, also to house some other info like events and blog posts > > I absolutely *do* hate side bars (like MedaWiki has them). But as I > said: The table hosting "current events" has it's own css class, so it > should be possible to move it around on the page - and to give it a > different look. I've done it as a table, as that is the *only* place I > can tell the wiki to use css style sheets while editing text - see > <http://wiki-m.centos.org/HelpOnTables>. > > There might be plugins for something similar, I haven't looked yet. Even though you may dislike side bars, I still feel it is important for someone that ends up on a single page via Google, that he has something to guide him out of the page to other content. If I absolutely hate something about Wikis in general, it is that there never is any structure from a single page's view. You can see from where it is linked, but you do not know whether it is relevant (or deemed relevant). At least a generic structure gives a visitor (of one of the wiki-pages) a clear idea of what other kind of content is available and it might help him to actually Download CentOS, or look at what other documentation is in the Wiki. Which is the primary task of a Wiki. Making all of the content available. So sorry that you hate sidebars, but we definitely need some structure, because most people that cannot work with a Wiki end up leaving the page where he ended up via Google. Missing out on everything else that is there. > > If you visit without being logged in: > > > > - I would remove the Tabs (RecentChanges, FindPage, SiteNavigation, > >HelpContents) > > I'd keep at least SiteNavigation and RecentChanges Ok, look at it from a complete other view. You search on Google about Yum and CentOS. You end up on: http://wiki.centos.org/PackageManagement/Yum/ If you click on either SiteNavigation or RecentChanges, as a user that is interested in more information, you are lost. SiteNavigation is completely not related to the content of the page. It offers less than the search-box offers. RecentChanges is not relevant for someone visiting the page. We offer in the 'HEAD' view of that page everything we deem important. RecentChanges if only useful for people that edit that page or are interested in improving that page. You need to log in for that, so it is completely useless to the average visitor. In fact, and I repeat myself, if you end up on that Yum page as a normal visitor, you are lost. If you are lucky you are using the Uppity extension in firefox and you go Up. And going Up or doing a Search is the only thing you can do. At least we should have a menu somewhere that offers choice and guidance. * Index - Download - Documentation - Contribute - Promote - Donate - About * Search What I also like is something that allows you to go up. In this case it could be: Wiki » Documentation » Package Management » Yum To help you find related information. > > - I am not a proponent for showing 'MoinMoin powered, Python powered, > >Valid HTML 4.01' on every webpage. The wiki is not for geeks. There is > >little value in showing it on every page. > > This is the space where I'd like to put the Creative Commons stuff. That indeed seems more relevant :) What I didn't mention yet is that the Google Adsense is eating away 20% of my viewable screen area (I have a 1024x768 resolution) and I think that is totally unacceptable. Together with the logo and Wiki title you loose 50% of the screen. http://dag.wieers.com/attic/CentOS/Screenshot-wiki.png I do not eve
Re: [CentOS-docs] Wiki deuglification Part I
On Thu, 4 Oct 2007, Dag Wieers wrote: > What I didn't mention yet is that the Google Adsense is eating away 20% of > my viewable screen area (I have a 1024x768 resolution) and I think that is > totally unacceptable. Together with the logo and Wiki title you loose 50% > of the screen. > > http://dag.wieers.com/attic/CentOS/Screenshot-wiki.png > > I do not even see the *real* content of the front-page. And you don't want > to have a side-bar ?? Compare this to other frontpages: > > http://openvz.org/ > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CentOS > > The content is accessible without having to scroll. I can automatically > start to read. Compare these links: http://dag.wieers.com/attic/centos/screenshot-wiki.png http://dag.wieers.com/attic/centos/screenshot-openvz.png http://dag.wieers.com/attic/centos/screenshot-mediawiki.png and you understand why the CentOS wiki is unacceptable. There is no content on the first page on my viewable area, hence the need for at least one sidebar hosting the logo and structure (and maybe ads). -- -- dag wieers, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] Wiki restructure
On Sat, 6 Oct 2007, Alain Reguera Delgado wrote:
> On 9/27/07, Dag Wieers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Hi all,
> ...
> > I would propose something like this:
> >
> > http://wiki.centos.org/FrontPageProposal
> >
> > and move everything to the subsections (maybe even move page references to
> > fit in these subsections). With a change like this, the wiki will become
> > much more straightforward to new users and hopefully will encourage people
> > to contribute.
> >
> > What do people think ?
>
> I agree, some improvement to the wiki would be nice. Here is another
> structure proposition:
>
> http://wiki.centos.org/es?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=wiki-structure-1-en.png
Since we are discussing using the wiki as the website, we probably have to
move the Documentation one level deeper.
> I would like to implement it in es/ page. Would it be convenient ?
My preference would be that we keep the same layout and content as the
English page.
> Also, I would like to discuss a little about namespace.
Definitely :)
> Some time ago (when daniels redirection wiki plugin) we talked about
> the idea of move all English pages to en/ namespace, is that still
> possible ?.
That's ok for me, given that people end up in the en/ namespace by
default.
> The cases of Repositories/, PackageManagement/,
> YumCheckOrInstallUpdates pages. They are listed under HowTos but the
> name space don't say that. Could them be put under HowTos/ namespace ?
>
> The case of HowTos/Network/SomePage, could it be just HowTos/SomePage
> ? Or, HowTos/Category/SomePage for all pages under HowTos.
>
> What do you think about the actual wiki namespace, could we improve it
> some way ?
These are good examples of namespaces we have to fix. My preference would
go to using a fairly strict namespace that matches the structure of the
site:
en/download/
distributions/
mirrors/
search/
en/documentation/
faq/
forum/
howtos/
mailinglist/
procedures/
tips-and-tricks/
en/contribute/
bugreports/
sig/
artwork/
promo/
virtualisation/
todo/
en/promote/
events/
networks/
websites/
en/donate/
media/
shirts/
why/
en/about/
history/
support/
team/
what/
--
-- dag wieers, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://dag.wieers.com/ --
[Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors]
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Re: [CentOS-docs] Wiki restructure
On Sun, 7 Oct 2007, Alain Reguera Delgado wrote: > On 10/7/07, Dag Wieers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On Sat, 6 Oct 2007, Alain Reguera Delgado wrote: > ... > > > http://wiki.centos.org/es?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=wiki-structure-1-en.png > > > > Since we are discussing using the wiki as the website, we probably have to > > move the Documentation one level deeper. > > > > > I would like to implement it in es/ page. Would it be convenient ? > > > > My preference would be that we keep the same layout and content as the > > English page. > > ok. so here is a proposition to the English page ;) : > > http://wiki.centos.org/en?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=wiki-structure-1-en.png > > What do you think ? Does it adapt to the needs ? Other suggestions ? I am not in favor of such a design. I think we have to accomodate both new users and users that know what CentOS is. By starting off with a large introduction section, the important links to all other sections fall off the screen (at least my 1024x768 screen). And for regular users, the introduction is not useful. I think the links (categories) should be visible on the top, as well as a small introduction. A screenshot is possible if it does not take more than 1/6 of my screen. But the links should be visible as most people are NOT interested in the front page. What's more, I feel very strongly about the need for a menu to guide people to the rest of the side (wherever they may have entered the site). People need direction (and those that don't can ignore the menu). People need to know what their options are (and not too many options either). -- -- dag wieers, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
[CentOS-docs] Re: [CentOS] apt-cacher for CentOS
On Thu, 11 Oct 2007, Morten Torstensen wrote: > James A. Peltier wrote: > > If there isn't an equivalent, would someone please point me in the direction > > of how I might accomplish this with CentOS? > > The Upstream have a Satellite program that provides local copies for their > distribution/management network. Don't know if that is something that could be > re-packaged? I think as part of CentOS we should have a wiki page that provides a few of the already discussed solutions. RHN Proxy or RHN Satellite are at this moment not Open Source and cannot be packaged. Is anyone interested in writing this content and maintaining it in the CentOS wiki ? I am very interested to contribute to it myself, but have other responsibilities already. -- -- dag wieers, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] Wiki FrontPage Proposition
On Fri, 12 Oct 2007, Alain Reguera Delgado wrote: > What do you think about this structure: > > http://wiki.centos.org/FrontPageProposal?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=wiki-structure-5-en.png It is definitely an improvement over what we have now, but in my opinion there are too many blocks. And the documentation block looks like it is a permanent menu, while it is not. Again, I believe we need a left-handside permanent menu that helps navigate the content. And the content is the first people need to see. So I would move the screenshot to the right, put a small introduction on the left, and immediately show not more than 7 sections. So that people in a glimp of an eye, can see what choices they have and make a choice. The importance of not more than 7 links is that people can remember and return to those 7 choices. Too many links on a frontpage trembles that structure. (the left-handside menu of course does not have to be on the frontpage if it is in a permantent block on the left for every subsequent page, still having it there helps for consistency) -- -- dag wieers, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] Wiki FrontPage Proposition
On Fri, 12 Oct 2007, Matt Hyclak wrote: > On Fri, Oct 12, 2007 at 04:49:40PM +0200, Dag Wieers enlightened us: > > > What do you think about this structure: > > > http://wiki.centos.org/FrontPageProposal?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=wiki-structure-5-en.png > > > > It is definitely an improvement over what we have now, but in my opinion > > there are too many blocks. And the documentation block looks like it is a > > permanent menu, while it is not. > > > > Again, I believe we need a left-handside permanent menu that helps > > navigate the content. And the content is the first people need to see. So > > I would move the screenshot to the right, put a small introduction on the > > left, and immediately show not more than 7 sections. So that people in a > > glimp of an eye, can see what choices they have and make a choice. > > > > The importance of not more than 7 links is that people can remember > > and return to those 7 choices. Too many links on a frontpage trembles that > > structure. > > > > Not to mention the 7 +/- 2 rule[1] of how much data we can hold in short term > memory to process. No, I'm not taking Educational Psychology classes this > quarter, I swear! Hey, that's interesting. I don't know how I came up with 7, but I felt that more than 7 would probably be too much. Funny that this actually has been part of a psychological study :) PS That obviously means that I have an average capacity :/ -- -- dag wieers, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] Wiki FrontPage Proposition
On Fri, 12 Oct 2007, Alain Reguera Delgado wrote: > On 10/12/07, Dag Wieers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > On Fri, Oct 12, 2007 at 04:49:40PM +0200, Dag Wieers enlightened us: > > > > > What do you think about this structure: > > > > > http://wiki.centos.org/FrontPageProposal?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=wiki-structure-5-en.png > ... > > > > And the documentation block looks like it is a > > > > permanent menu, while it is not. > > What do you mean with permanet exactly ? One that is available for every wiki document. The content does not have to be permanent (per se), but at least the location and functionality should. That is part of helping the visitor find its way. -- -- dag wieers, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] Wiki FrontPage Proposition
On Fri, 12 Oct 2007, Alain Reguera Delgado wrote: > On 10/12/07, Dag Wieers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On Fri, 12 Oct 2007, Alain Reguera Delgado wrote: > > > On 10/12/07, Dag Wieers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > On Fri, Oct 12, 2007 at 04:49:40PM +0200, Dag Wieers enlightened us: > > > > > > > > > > > > What do you think about this structure: > > > > > > > http://wiki.centos.org/FrontPageProposal?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=wiki-structure-5-en.png > > > ... > > > > > > And the documentation block looks like it is a > > > > > > permanent menu, while it is not. > > > > > > What do you mean with permanet exactly ? > > > > One that is available for every wiki document. The content does not have > > to be permanent (per se), but at least the location and functionality > > should. That is part of helping the visitor find its way. > > The link Documentation in the NaviBar is always visible. In the > FrontPage we include some content about Documentation for quicker > access. When the visitor goes inside the wiki, the Documentation link > and others defined are still in the NaviBar, so the user can use it > wherever he whats. The same case of RecentChanges actually. > > Actually the NaviBar is horizontally, so reader's order of preference > is from left to right below logo image. In a left sidebar design it > would be from up to down at left side. > > In each case we can add links to NaviBar, or remove default links and > add ours ... Maybe we need to consider what we want ... delete default > MoinMoin links (RecentChanges, FindPage, etc) and adding just > Documentation, Donate, etc (always less than 7 or six links as moin > recommend) OR leave default links and add ours after them (still 2 or > 3 links more). > > If we put just our links (Documentation, Donate, etc) it would be a > very CentOS NaviBar ... but make it a little difficult to users a > quickly access to some important wiki pages like RecentChanges, > FindPages, HelpContents, etc ... of course we could put this important > wiki links on some clear place at FrontPage content section (not at > NaviBar) ... this would make one step longer to access pages like > RecentChanges but users will access CentOS contents through NaviBar > from anywhere with just one click and we could keep NaviBar under 6 or > 7 links. > > Maybe we can put CentOS important links like Documentation first and > then wiki important links like RecentChanges. > > What do you think ? Do we still need a vertically NaviBar ? Could the > horizontal NaviBar do the trick ? I think we do not have to reinvent any wheel. Most users are accustomed to this: --- CentOS wiki /logologin | search: _ --- --- MENU: | Welcome to the CentOS wiki. - download | a blah blah introduction text. | random | documentation | You can find information yada | screenshot | contribute| yada | | promote || | donate| - about | | _Download CentOS now._ Find out how to download | the latest CentOS release and updates EVENTS:| T-DOSE 2007 | _Documentation on CentOS._ Help yourself with LinuxWorld NL | our FAQ and Tips-and-tricks. Browse to our FOSDEM| | _Contribute to CentOS._ Make yourself useful | and provide bugreports and feedback. Join NEWS: | Item 1 great | _Promote CentOS._ Show Centos to people and Item 2 cool | usergroups. Design flyers, stickers and Item 3 neat | | _Donate to CentOS._ Provide us with the funds | we need so hard to operate this project PLANET:| Post 1 mighty | _About CentOS._ What is CentOS? Who is Post 2 fancy | running this project? Who can I contact Post 3 wicked | | --- When a user is logged on, he gets the extra navigation bar --- CentOS wiki / logo login | search: _ --- --- MENU: | Edit | Info | Subscribe | RecentChanges | ... download --- documentation | Welcome to the CentOS wiki. - contribute| a blah blah introduction text. | random | p
Re: [CentOS-docs] Wiki FrontPage Proposition
On Mon, 15 Oct 2007, Ralph Angenendt wrote: > Dag Wieers wrote: > > I think we do not have to reinvent any wheel. Most users are accustomed to > > this: > > But that *would* mean reinventing the wheel (at least in Moin), while > the Navibar already is there *and* is available on all pages without > further intervention. True, the contents of the navibar have to be done > in wikiconfig.py and aren't easily editable, but that's about the only > drawback I see. Sorry but I find it a bad strategy if we have to adapt the layout and friendliness of the wiki because of technical issues with the wiki software. Not using a righthand-side menu because there is something else in place by default seems the wrong reason. > > EVENTS:| > > T-DOSE 2007 | _Documentation on CentOS._ Help yourself with > > LinuxWorld NL | our FAQ and Tips-and-tricks. Browse to our > > FOSDEM| > > | _Contribute to CentOS._ Make yourself useful > > | and provide bugreports and feedback. Join > > NEWS: | > > Item 1 great | _Promote CentOS._ Show Centos to people and > > Item 2 cool | usergroups. Design flyers, stickers and > > Item 3 neat | > > | _Donate to CentOS._ Provide us with the funds > > | we need so hard to operate this project > > PLANET:| > > Post 1 mighty | _About CentOS._ What is CentOS? Who is > > Post 2 fancy | running this project? Who can I contact > > Post 3 wicked | > > I haven't seen a theme for moin yet which is able to do that. The two or > three themes which have sidebars *only* have the NaviBar in there. What > could be possible is a table which has it's own CSS information and > which then might be put at the left or the right side of the page. But: > If you want this content on *all* pages, all pages have to be touched. That seems stupid. I doubt that MoinMoin has this limitation, otherwise I have to question why we used MoinMoin in the first place :( > > BTW Thanks for your patience, I can imagine that it is not easy with a > > bunch of perfectionists (like me) ;-) > > But do you have *any* idea on how to accomplish that in Moin? >:) The MoinMoin website advertises 2 wikis that have a proper menu: cacert.org (doesn't look like a wiki, that's good) kernelnewbies.org (good wiki-structure menu) It would be a shame if we would not do it because we don't know how to do it. If we decide to do it like that, at least we can look for someone who can look into it and in the meantime do it different. -- -- dag wieers, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] Re: modern-CentOS-1.7-10
On Wed, 21 Nov 2007, Alain Reguera Delgado wrote: > Thank you very much for those comments. No, thank you for your perseverance :) > Also, What do you think about info messages ? would be convenient to > define some styles to notes, warnings and stops messages in our wiki ? Yes, good admonition support is a definite plus for documentation ! And if it exists, I am sure more people will make use of it to polish their documents. -- -- dag wieers, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] Wiki deuglification, last (at the moment) part
On Wed, 21 Nov 2007, Ralph Angenendt wrote: > one last change maybe - with the 3% padding on top and bottom, we really > lose screen estate at the top. > > How does it look to you without any padding at top/bottom (leaving a > 10px white line there)? That's what's live on wiki-m.centos.org at the > moment. > > Or, if all of you want to have some more space above there (and the > background pattern) go with 1% padding? > > 1% padding means that there will be *1* line of checkered boxes over the > white space over the header ... > > [insert personal opinion: 1% padding looks better, IMHO, but other > people seem to like the 0% padding instead.] > > > Other than that, I'd like to call this the "Final Version" for now, with > which I'd like to go live on the real wiki before 5.1/4.6 hit the > mirrors. > > That doesn't mean that we won't improve the design any further, but I'd > like to show some progress to the outside (release early, release often) > ... I would bring it live right now and do the optimisations later. There is no need to get clearance of those things if most people already condoned most of the meat :) -- -- dag wieers, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
[CentOS-docs] Announcing the CentOS on Laptops initiative
Hi all, I would like to announce a CentOS on Laptops initiative. The aim is to allow everybody in the community (and on this mailinglist) to document their own experience with CentOS on their laptop (on the CentOS wiki). The goal of this initiative consists of 2 parts: - help and convince people with their own CentOS on laptop installation - promote CentOS on other Laptop websites and fill in this existing void I hope that everyone think back about the experience on their existing laptop and add it to the wiki, and document everything when doing future laptop installations. -- -- dag wieers, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] Announcing the CentOS on Laptops initiative
On Sun, 25 Nov 2007, Karanbir Singh wrote: > Dag Wieers wrote: > > > I would like to announce a CentOS on Laptops initiative. The aim is to > > allow everybody in the community (and on this mailinglist) to document > > their own experience with CentOS on their laptop (on the CentOS wiki). > > > > > > The goal of this initiative consists of 2 parts: > > > > - help and convince people with their own CentOS on laptop installation > > > > - promote CentOS on other Laptop websites and fill in this existing void > > > > > > I hope that everyone think back about the experience on their existing > > laptop and add it to the wiki, and document everything when doing future > > laptop installations. > > > > > > > > if you can setup something on the wiki - perhaps a few templates and we can > all fill in a few. give people something to look at right off the starting > blocks, we can then announce this via the centos-announce list and on the > website etc... I created an index for it at: http://wiki.centos.org/HowTos/Laptops/ The template I still have to make, but it probably will change depending on how it progresses. We also have to think about whether we want different pages for each version of CentOS, or whether we put these on the same page. (my preference since newer laptops will most likely be installed with the newest CentOS anyway the older CentOS installs are less relevant) > I can definitely fill out atleast 5 different laptop configs that work with > centos-5. That would be great, I am going to do the same for the Thinkpad T41, Thinkpad T43 and Thinkpad T60 and an old Toshiba laptop. (all of which installed fine) I also added the pages on the internet I could find wrt. CentOS and laptops. These links would probably go into the page itself once these are created. So the template would probably have different entries: = CentOS 5 == Specification == Video == Wireless == Network == Bluetooth ... = CentOS 4 ... = Links == Vendor pages == Installation pages I don't know yet what structure to use. I prefer to have a complete and consistent structure for all laptops and allow for different HW specifications to indicate it as such in the text. (At ThinkWiki that works very well) -- -- dag wieers, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] Announcing the CentOS on Laptops initiative
On Mon, 26 Nov 2007, Cleber P. de Souza wrote: > On Nov 26, 2007 8:17 AM, Ralph Angenendt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Dag Wieers wrote: > > > I hope that everyone think back about the experience on their existing > > > laptop and add it to the wiki, and document everything when doing future > > > laptop installations. > > > > Hmmm. > > > > I think we are reaching a stage, where we really have to think about a > > different acl model on the wiki ... > > > > Of course we can add a LaptopGroup now, which can edit all pages > > underneath there, but I think that stuff is slowly going to kill us ... > > Initially I think that the groups creating could be done by a group of > primary administrator and each new created group should have 1 ou 2 > admins so that from this point on, these local group admins can manage > the acceptance, inclusion and delegation permissions for users inside > these groups and just inside it. This behavior will distribute the > responsability for minor groups and will help in case of problem > because these local group admins can affect only the local groups for > that they were delegated. > > Just a suggestion. I would prefer to open it up to anyone who has registered. The real power for a wiki is that it is easy to add and improve and the more levels of complexity (and latency) you add before things can be added, the less momentum you have. -- -- dag wieers, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] SiteNavigation wanted on FrontPage
On Mon, 26 Nov 2007, Ralph Angenendt wrote: > Akemi Yagi wrote: > > Could the SiteNavigation page be listed on the Front Page as before? > > > > http://wiki.centos.org/SiteNavigation > > > > I fairly often use it and now I cannot 'navigate' to it :-) > > Yeah, but why not bookmark it? We talked about what we wanted on the > FrontPage and agreed about leaving out most "wiki foo" for people who > don't have an account on the wiki. > > If you are logged in: > <http://wiki.centos.org/SiteNavigation?action=quicklink> will do the > trick - as long as you stay logged in. Actually, it is still on the FrontPage at the very bottom: If you are lost on this wiki, go here[1] or here[2] ! [1] http://wiki.centos.org/MoinMoinInfo [2] http://wiki.centos.org/MoinMoin -- -- dag wieers, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] Announcing the CentOS on Laptops initiative
On Mon, 26 Nov 2007, Ralph Angenendt wrote: > Dag Wieers wrote: > > I would prefer to open it up to anyone who has registered. > > There has to be *one* step more in it. Selfregistering and then getting > write access doesn't work (okay, it works for spammers). Captcha's are not possible to avoid the SPAM ? If the one step could take up more than 5 minutes (or even half an hour), I think we lost momentum for those people that want to do it *now*, or never. If waiting for approval takes longer than the fix, I doubt many people will go for the fix. -- -- dag wieers, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
[CentOS-docs] Improving Google hit rate of the wiki
Hi, I noticed that the CentOS wiki is not doing as good as it can in Google because the title contains the path and not the wiki title. I don't know if this can be changed though. eg. url:http://wiki.centos.org/HowTos/Skype htmltitle: HowTos/Skype - CentOS Wiki doctitle: Skype on CentOS The results would probably be better if the title started with CentOS and then contains the real title (instead of the path). In this case: CentOS: Skype on CentOS Is it possible to change the title of the HTML document to match the document title ? -- -- dag wieers, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] Announcing the CentOS on Laptops initiative
On Sun, 25 Nov 2007, Karanbir Singh wrote: > Dag Wieers wrote: > > > I would like to announce a CentOS on Laptops initiative. The aim is to > > allow everybody in the community (and on this mailinglist) to document > > their own experience with CentOS on their laptop (on the CentOS wiki). > > if you can setup something on the wiki - perhaps a few templates and we can > all fill in a few. give people something to look at right off the starting > blocks, we can then announce this via the centos-announce list and on the > website etc... I now added a page for a Thinkpad T43 and Thinkpad X60. There is also information about a HP Pavilion already. I hope to add a template that we can improve later this evening. > I can definitely fill out atleast 5 different laptop configs that work with > centos-5. I'd say, start adding some info. I prefer if the information is added during and after an installation, because from memory things get lost (my Thinkpad T43 page is very slim). I plan to do a reinstallation of my T43 only to make sure that the wiki page is correct. I am als picking up my CentOS demo laptop (T41) this evening and will do a reinstallation of CentOS 5 (or 5.1) in order to improve the wiki information. Also I prefer if we could move specific procedures out of the Laptop-model page into a more generic page. (like how to install the firmware drivers, or use ndiswrapper, or enable NetworkManager, or enable compiz) All the simple things that everybody needs to do afterwards anyway could as well be included from the index page. (especially the NetworkManager or ndiswrapper is something that people do not find out themselves but need a little guidance with) -- -- dag wieers, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
[CentOS-docs] MoinMoin TableOfContents
Hi, I constantly find myself fighting the wiki syntax. Today the problem is that I want a TableOfContents that does NOT include the page title. To be honest, I do not understand why the page title (level 1) is included in the TOC, and why it does not appear in the head-title (). I found with Google that there is a syntax like: [[TableOfContents(4,2)]] instead of [[TableOfContents(2)]] Probably I am using it wrong, can some one help me with: http://wiki.centos.org/HowTos/Laptops/IBM/Thinkpad-T43 Thanks, -- -- dag wieers, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] MoinMoin TableOfContents
On Fri, 30 Nov 2007, Ralph Angenendt wrote: > Tim Verhoeven wrote: > > The start the TOC on a lower level add this to the page : #pragma > > section-numbers 2 > > Okay, so it was your fix :) > > Dag: Disregard what I tried above ... Thanks both :) I think the TableOfContents(x, y) is a newer patch than the MoinMoin we are using. Still, I think we are misusing the first level-1 title as some sort of page title ? Because it makes no sense that we can have more than one 1 page title, while you can have more than 1 level-1 title :-( There must be something I am overlooking, but being mostly wiki-ignorant I hope someone else can make me understand :) -- -- dag wieers, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
[CentOS-docs] Wiki external links
Hi, I am personally not that fond of the little globe that precedes all the external links in the Wiki. Often it disturbs in the reading of a paragraph and whether a links is external or internal should not matter to the user at all. I even wonder how many newbies understand why the icon is shown at all. -- -- dag wieers, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
[CentOS-docs] Re: [CentOS Wiki] Update of "Events/Fosdem2008" by FabianArrotin
On Fri, 8 Feb 2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Dear Wiki user, > > You have subscribed to a wiki page or wiki category on "CentOS Wiki" for > change notification. > > The following page has been changed by FabianArrotin: > http://wiki.centos.org/Events/Fosdem2008?action=diff&rev2=41&rev1=40 > > The comment on the change is: > added my name for the Friday event > > -- >* KaranbirSingh >* RalphAngenendt >* TimVerhoeven > - > == Hardware Insurance == > There is no longer any hardware insurance organised by FOSDEM. Are we > willing to organise this ourselves ? > Hi Fabian, Why do you remove the empty lines before a new title, or between paragraphs ? I find it very useful to read the wiki markup if titles and paragraphs stand out from the text, otherwise it is just a blob of text that is hard to read or interprete. -- -- dag wieers, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
[CentOS-docs] New CentOS intro presentations given at LinuxWorld
Hi, I added 2 new CentOS presentations, a Dutch version that was prepared for LinuxWorld 2007 Utrecht (NL) and an English updated version that was prepared for LinuxWorld 2008 Brussels (BE). You can find both presentations at: http://wiki.centos.org/Events/Presentations I would like to receive feedback from an as wide audience as possible. The Dutch one needs to be updated to include all the new information from the English one, so please focus your attention on the English slides. This presentation is focused on a business audience and goes much deeper into support questions and the advantages of an Enterprise Linux over bleeding edge Linux distributions. Both Ralph and Fabian have similar presentations that are more tuned for the community, talking about how one could contribute to the project and explaining how the project works. Thanks in advance -- -- dag wieers, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
[CentOS-docs] Redoing FAQ
Hi, While I was interested to add some FAQ items regarding CentOS continuity/release frequency, I noticed that the FAQ didn't look all too well and the old TOC was seperately maintained from the content/titles. I changed this for the General FAQ and will do so for the other FAQs as well. You can see the difference between the old: http://wiki.centos.org/FAQ/General?action=recall&rev=17 and the new http://wiki.centos.org/FAQ/General?action=recall&rev=18 It is without any doubt much easier to manage and navigate. And it fixes some inconsistencies. -- -- dag wieers, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
[CentOS-docs] Reorganising general CentOS FAQ
Hi guys, I would like to reorganise the general CentOS FAQ. It now has 20 questions about a lot of different things that can be structure much better. I would like to add some questions, but lacking any structure... I would like to make a distinction between the following subjects: - General questions about the CentOS project Answers about what the project is about, why the project exists, who is involved in the project, what the relationship os to Red Hat - General questions about CentOS releases and updates Answers about the release versions, release frequency, continuity, sub-releases - General questions about CentOS additional packages and features Answers about repositories, packages, mp3 support Each general FAQ would of course point to the other FAQ documents to people can navigate to the others if they google to one of them. Is this something I can do ? -- -- dag wieers, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] Reorganising general CentOS FAQ
On Sun, 23 Mar 2008, Karanbir Singh wrote: Dag Wieers wrote: - General questions about the CentOS project - General questions about CentOS releases and updates - General questions about CentOS additional packages and features Might be a good idea to perhaps check the mail lists and work out what questions get asked the most there, and then on the forums and general centos searches on google. Right, I was planning to add the stuff that people asked me the most at events. Mostly related to: Are you a company ? What if CentOS stops doing it ? What if Red Hat stops releasing SRPMs ? But also: How can I join the project ? What can we do to help CentOS ? Additionally I would like to add some of the content of the slides, like what CentOS does apart from rebuilding the RPMS, how we are not competing with Red Hat, what we add for RHEL users, when one should not use CentOS but RHEL instead, etc... All tha kind of stuff. -- -- dag wieers, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] FAQs
On Sat, 17 May 2008, Ned Slider wrote: Karanbir Singh wrote: Ned Slider wrote: Presumably it would be preferable if there was just one, and as the main site FAQs seem old, plus Akemi and I both have edit rights to the Wiki, we would propose to add missing content contained in the main site FAQs onto the Wiki page as necessary making this the most complete FAQ repository. Sounds like a good idea. Perhaps an expansion of the GettingHelp wiki page is called for - and overdue. So a general 'ask a sensible question, get a sensible reply' document would be very cool to have. Thanks for taking this effort up. Good idea - I was trying to think where that content would logically sit on the Wiki. Hey Ned, I proposed to reorganise the FAQ as well before. Merging the website with the wiki FAQ is very important. http://lists.centos.org/pipermail/centos-docs/2008-March/001097.html http://lists.centos.org/pipermail/centos-docs/2008-March/001098.html The thread already discusses some ideas, but we never got to it. I am happy to assist with answering some of those questions. In general I think answers should be as short as possible, sometimes requiring to split a question in multiple questions. -- -- dag wieers, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
[CentOS-docs] Searching the wiki
Hi, If you type a keyword and press Enter in the search field on the wiki, it does a title-search by default which is very limited. I tried looking for information about atheros or madwifi and couldn't find anything. Then I tried ipw2200 (I knew it existed because I created it) and no results still. I had to ask Ralph to see if the index was old, only to find out that there is a difference between text search and title search and the default is title search. I guess the default really should be text search for most users. If I can make the mistake anyone can, right ? :) -- -- dag wieers, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
[CentOS-docs] Re: [CentOS-promo] Intro and Translation
On Mon, 16 Jun 2008, wonderer wrote: Ralph Angenendt schrieb: wonderer wrote: So, I have build a Wiki Account under HenrikHeigl. If anybody can give me write-permission I can put in some stuff :-) centos-docs list, please - and at the moment we really would prefer if you told us *what* you want to put in *where*. This will change soon, but until then ... Build the own wiki page, put in some odp work, refresh some press related stuff... Bu I see, I'll better wait till the structure was buidl up a bit... Waiting does not work, believe me, I tried it :-) If you want to be involved and active in the Promo SIG, we should use this list to discuss things (like the TODO list that I once wrote) and you obviously need Wiki access to help maintain that part. Not everything in that list falls directly under the promotional part of the promo SIG, but promoting CentOS is more than doing some marketing or events. That is why we did not want to call it 'marketing' (I hate that word anyway). Ralph, How do we work for SIGs ? Would a seperate group be useful per SIG, or do we rather want to keep it simple and light ? -- -- dag wieers, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] Please write-permission of HowTos/Laptops on Wiki
On Thu, 19 Jun 2008, TAIRA Hajime wrote: Thanks! Ralph. I created it. = CentOS 5.1 on HP 2133 Mini-Note = http://wiki.centos.org/HowTos/Laptops/HP/HP2133 Thanks a lot ! If you do find some workaround for the things that currently do not work, please let us know. If there are drivers missing, or unpackaged we can make the installation process easier, but we need someone to help us with that. Also, I noticed you were using ndiswrapper. Did you try ndis-gtk ? It is a very good front-end to ndiswrapper. Thanks again for your laptop feedback ! -- -- dag wieers, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] modern-CentOS-1.10.3
On Sun, 15 Jun 2008, Alain Reguera Delgado wrote: Sometimes content gets out of page due it is larger than screen visible area. To fix that in modern-CentOS-1.10.3 we introduce automatically overflow for some table cells and pre elements. See: http://wiki.centos.org/ArtWork/WikiDesign/modern-CentOS?action=AttachFile&do=get&target=Screenshot-scrolling_text_inside_tables.png More details in: http://wiki.centos.org/ArtWork/WikiDesign/modern-CentOS#head-26546ea0073d469748ebf2914636d55fd75ef1e6 Does it is convenient for our wiki ? I like it a lot. Interested in doing CSS work for my Drupal blog ? :P -- -- dag wieers, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
[CentOS-docs] Added Download page to wiki
Hi, I have added a Download page to the wiki. Feel free to improve it (but please do not make it more complex than it already is :-)) I would prefer to make it even more simple, but hate to have the architecture-selection done by DirectoryIndex. Also the link behind each architecture looks awful and may scare people away. It would be much better to have a single link that automatically translates into the closest mirror. Or have a dynamic selection. (Can we write MoinMoin plugins for doing this ?) I chose to not add a bittorrent link, because it would introduce again several links to each architecture and that would make it even worse. The link from the mirror however does include torrent-files. Also for this a better solution would be good. I also modified the frontpage slightly to have a link to this Download page because that was missing (for a long time now). People were also confused to find the release notes behind the different versions, so I moved them to the download page as well. Now on to creating a Donate page... -- -- dag wieers, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] potential wiki article on encryption
On Tue, 26 Aug 2008, Akemi Yagi wrote: There is a posting in the CentOS forum that can potentially make a good article regarding encryption (or supplement the existing page). Please take a look at #4 of: http://www.centos.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&topic_id=15923&forum=42 The poster says, "I think that the contents of this document would make a good addition to the wiki, but I don't have the ability to submit such things and probably would not be a consistent enough contributer to get said rights." What do others think? Is this something we should consider placing on the wiki? If so, should we persuade this person to submit the writing? I think we should answer his comment in public so people can learn they do can contribute to the wiki and improve the project. I feel sad if people think they cannot contribute, or that their contribution would not be enough to get rights. In any case we should clear up that confusion for everyone that reads the forum message in the future. And make it easier for people to contribute. PS Today I added 2 small comments in the Pidgin FAQ to explain how people can add environment variables to Windows XP, I just registered and edited the FAQ because the FAQ did not specify *how* to set PIDGINLANG on Windows. It was a 60sec job. -- -- dag wieers, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
[CentOS-docs] Re: centos-intro
On Tue, 16 Sep 2008, David Hrbáč wrote: Dag Wieers napsal(a): It is available from the CentOS wiki. Just search for presentation. Perfect. Thanks. I would appreciate if you could: - Show the original location of the English version in your translated slides - Show the original location in every presentation based on these slides - Send improvements to me so we can include them in the English version, which should always be the most current one I should probably add these terms of use to that page. I have included centos-docs in this discussion as I personally have no clue about license terms of stuff in the wiki. However I think we should make sure that derived presentations always mention the original location (especially during a presentation). This could ensure that mis-translations or errors are being reported and fixed upstream. Any ideas ? -- -- dag wieers, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors]___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] CentOS 4.7 Release Notes on the wiki not mentioned in the announcement
On Mon, 15 Sep 2008, Karanbir Singh wrote: Akemi Yagi wrote: It was unfortunate that the CentOS 4.7 release announcement did not refer to the Release Notes on the wiki: http://wiki.centos.org/Manuals/ReleaseNotes/CentOS4.7 I propose to put this link in the Download page ( http://wiki.centos.org/Download ) instead of, or in addition to, the current link which points to the 4.7 announcement. Its important that we also mention the release announcement itself, so perhaps create another column and url that in there too Yes, I am wondering whether we can turn the link in a small image so we gain some space for another column. In the past there were no Release Notes and that is why I referenced the announcement. But indeed for newer releases we have both and we could reference both. I will make sure this is add. Thanks Akemi ! -- -- dag wieers, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] Re: centos-intro
On Tue, 16 Sep 2008, Alain Reguera Delgado wrote: On 9/16/08, Marcus Moeller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Dear David. I'd like to have centos-intro for the first, I mean http://dag.wieers.com/blog/files/centos-intro-1.4-en.png I think it should be available in every language we provide. That's why I was talking about ArtWork SIG. I guess we could include it into "build" package (http://wiki.centos.org/ArtWork/BuildingEnvironment), so it generates automatically as the other ones... Finally we can go for the whole presentation. Do you think the timeline could be generated dynamically from svn based on the current date? Maybe we could create the timeline boxes and modify its x width based on the substitutions commands available in its related sed file. Working with the same units to keep the year relation, and defining some coordinate values as reference for them. Maybe the bash's date command could be used to automate some things. Also the basic bash arithmetic could be used. If we reach that, it could be included in http://wiki.centos.org/ArtWork/BuildingEnvironment, for all languages available. Surely there are other ways (I would like to hear) ... these are just some initial thoughts. Do you know if there is some place where the timeline growth be described in details ? Ok, before you start to implement something, let's think about if those resources are well spent. I now update that picture with every release (about every 3/4 months) or if a new presentation is coming. I don't know if it makes sense to make it more complicated than that picture and if it needs to be translated, why not look at how to translate ODF documents instead ? -- -- dag wieers, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
[CentOS-docs] CentOS wiki/web changes
Hi, A few things I would like to see fixed in the short term: + Simplifying the frontpage. I gave a rationale on my blog why I think the frontpage should be more simple an structured. You can see the proposal here: http://wiki.centos.org/FrontPageProposal Ralph already criticized that there is too much text and I tend to agree. I would prefer to see an image instead and maybe a matrix of images. Maybe this is something for the Artwork team ? But next to the Frontpage we need decent subpages that structure eg. the Documentation or the Contribute section better. So we could need some help in that as well. + Improving the various download pages. At the moment the wiki Download page is a collection of links to static HTML pages that do not fit the rest of the wiki: http://isoredirect.centos.org/centos/5/isos/i386/ I would like to propose that the Artwork team puts this on the list of things TODO so that those download pages are restyled. + Then there is the Donations link on the website. I now copied the content over to the wiki and modified it slightly. We probably should rethink the page wrt. donations and give some compelling reasons what we need money for and how it is important to have a firm project in place. We could have some other intiatives to bring in money, like CentOS-branded stuff we could sell, sell expensive CD/DVD media (invoiced) etc... If we offer those on the donations page, people might be more compelled to donate. Any opinions ? -- -- dag wieers, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] Re: centos-intro
On Wed, 17 Sep 2008, Alain Reguera Delgado wrote: On 9/16/08, Dag Wieers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: ... I don't know if it makes sense to make it more complicated than that picture and if it needs to be translated, why not look at how to translate ODF documents instead ? If a svg file is provided we can do like we did with slide translations ... just a matter of put markers in the svg file and translations for them in sed files. I don't mind it to be SVG, but my OpenOffice doesn't accept it well. ODF is also text, so you could do the same thing. In fact we could even translate the complete set of slides (although I would not recommend doing that). -- -- dag wieers, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] CentOS wiki/web changes
On Wed, 17 Sep 2008, Karanbir Singh wrote: Dag Wieers wrote: + Then there is the Donations link on the website. I now copied the content over to the wiki and modified it slightly. We probably should rethink the page wrt. donations and give some compelling reasons what we need money for and how it is important to have a firm project in place. Whats the aim of creating duplicate content and thereby creating more legacy ? The aim would be that more people could actually improve the content, instead of having it sit there, look ugly and not helping with donations at all. If you want me to say we should replace the Website by the Wiki, I will :) Sorry, but every link from the wiki going to the website is but-ugly, looks disconnected and unprofessional. We could have some other intiatives to bring in money, like CentOS-branded stuff we could sell, sell expensive CD/DVD media (invoiced) etc... If we offer those on the donations page, people might be more compelled to donate. Any opinions ? Not on the topics right now, will look at the wiki in a bit more detail and offer comments on these issues. But one thing that I would like to see, is that the news is removed from the wiki frontpage. the wiki does not get enough attention and has zero mechanism for rotating content. That sort of stuff really should be on the website. Right, and the website obviously is much better in providing content to users (not). Sorry Karanbir, we could argue about the principles of having a website and a wiki, but as long as the website is in the state it is now I would *never* recommend anyone to go to the website. We are talking about the website now for 2 years without any progress or anyone willing to do something. So just move the stuff over to the wiki and get done with it. eg. its funny that the planet.centos.org link is still on the wiki, while the service has been going for a very long time. Right, we could discuss what news-item to put on the frontpage, but I think it is important to also put highlights on the wiki simply because nobody ever visits both. -- -- dag wieers, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] CentOS wiki/web changes
On Wed, 17 Sep 2008, Karanbir Singh wrote: Dag Wieers wrote: > Whats the aim of creating duplicate content and thereby creating more > legacy ? The aim would be that more people could actually improve the content, instead of having it sit there, look ugly and not helping with donations at all. If there is such a mass of humanity looking to improve the content, why is that effort not directed at fixing the issues with the website ? How would John Doe be able to help with the website ? They can readily help with the wiki today. If you want me to say we should replace the Website by the Wiki, I will :) you can say that if you like, but its not going to happen. Right. Sorry, but every link from the wiki going to the website is but-ugly, looks disconnected and unprofessional. so why band-aid rather than fix the problem ? Why is the wiki a band-aid. A lot of projects only use a wiki and are very successful in doing so. Right, and the website obviously is much better in providing content to users (not). the website gets a magnitude of more traffic than the wiki, so I'd say yes its a better mechanism at the moment. The website gets more traffic because it is called http://centos.org/ and is linked everywhere, not because the content is able to deliver. I am confident that a news-item on the wiki has more effect, than having the same news-item on the website given they would both be called http://centos.org/ But that is not the point, the point is that there is nothing wrong with having news-items on the wiki, just like on the website, or the mailinglist, or planet centos for that matter. It does not have to be either-or. Sorry Karanbir, we could argue about the principles of having a website and a wiki, but as long as the website is in the state it is now I would *never* recommend anyone to go to the website. but you dont want to make any efforts to fix that situation ? No, and apparently others don't want to either. So I guess the official position is to wait until someone does it. Right, we could discuss what news-item to put on the frontpage, but I think it is important to also put highlights on the wiki simply because nobody ever visits both. I'd like to see what analytics were used in reaching that decision. I never visit the website, and I doubt many people return to the website if they know about the wiki. -- -- dag wieers, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] CentOS wiki/web changes
On Wed, 17 Sep 2008, Karanbir Singh wrote: Dag Wieers wrote: Why is the wiki a band-aid. A lot of projects only use a wiki and are very successful in doing so. Perhaps so, but fixing the real issues is always a better option, imho - then working around them. Why would using the wiki as the website be a band-aid ? It obviously is your opinion, but I try to find out why. Most of the content of the website could easily live in the wiki. > the website gets a magnitude of more traffic than the wiki, so I'd say > yes its a better mechanism at the moment. The website gets more traffic because it is called http://centos.org/ and is linked everywhere, not because the content is able to deliver. absolutely, so should there not be some effort to try and make that content deliver ? Well, putting it in the Wiki could have been that effort. What content of the website cannot be in the Wiki ? (And I am not talking about the Forums or the mirrorlist, but the XOOPS part) I am confident that a news-item on the wiki has more effect, than having the same news-item on the website given they would both be called http://centos.org/ Since we are now only talking in terms of opinion pulled out of thin air, I'd say not. Which is also opinion pulled out of think air. Much as your opinion that the Wiki would be band-aid ? But that is not the point, the point is that there is nothing wrong with having news-items on the wiki, just like on the website, or the mailinglist, or planet centos for that matter. There is no problem in having news items anywhere, as long as its maintained and its consistent and works with the user expectations without duplicating things. Ok, so your opinion is that we *have* to keep the website with its current content (because I sure as hell cannot add something from the website in the Wiki). On what grounds does something belong in the Wiki or on the website ? No, and apparently others don't want to either. So I guess the official position is to wait until someone does it. Fine, I will add it to the bottom of my ToDo list, when it makes it upto the top and if no one else has done anything I'll take drivers seat on that project. That scales very well ! > I'd like to see what analytics were used in reaching that decision. I never visit the website, and I doubt many people return to the website if they know about the wiki. ok, so no analytics were used. Don't give me that shit. This is dishonest. There is little to no content on the website that could not be transfered to the Wiki. First of all I don't have access to any numbers, but that is irrelevant in this discussion because you cannot prove that the Website is so popular because it is a website, or because the content is compelling. As I said earlier, the website gets more visitors because it is http://centos.org/, if you point that tomorrow to http://wiki.centos.org/ you would get the same number for the Wiki. No analytics were used in the above statement, and I am proud of it ! -- -- dag wieers, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] CentOS wiki/web changes
On Wed, 17 Sep 2008, Karanbir Singh wrote: Dag Wieers wrote: > > > I'd like to see what analytics were used in reaching that decision. > > > > I never visit the website, and I doubt many people return to the > > website > > if they know about the wiki. > > ok, so no analytics were used. Don't give me that shit. This is dishonest. There is little to no content on the website that could not be transfered to the Wiki. A simple question was asked, and you were unable to answer it so you prefer to resort to lowly offensive words to try and cover the fact that you really might be quite wrong. Not what I expected from you Dag. Ok, let's turn back to the small piece of information that started the above nonsense that is pissing me off the complete afternoon: --- Right, we could discuss what news-item to put on the frontpage, but I think it is important to also put highlights on the wiki simply because nobody ever visits both. I'd like to see what analytics were used in reaching that decision. --- You know I have no access to information to analyse (unlike you). I never said I did. I don't see why you are stretching this out of proportion though. I am getting tired of meta-discussions and not getting any answers whatsoever. You know I send this first to the internal list and the only reply I got was to send it to centos-docs. Which I did today. After I did, I get no answers at all only the above thread that does not explain anything at all. Same problem with the PPC status information, the CentOS Ltd., the financial status, everything is happening in secrecy and if I try to dig a bit deeper I am met with negativity, I get questioned or even paranoia (no, Fabian has nothing to do with this either!). A little transparancy would do the project good. I am getting so tired of this that I don't know why I even bother on a sick day. In other words you can count me out. -- -- dag wieers, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] Encrypting tmp swap and home
On Wed, 15 Oct 2008, Max Hetrick wrote: Marcus Moeller wrote: We are just trying to offer a common look & feel on the wiki. I am going to rework you page so that you can see what I mean. I understand and know what you mean, but it can be cumbersome and time consuming to have to write pages in multiple formats. I like writing docs for CentOS, but I also host them on my website where they are written in HTML first. I find wiki syntax to be annoying to write first drafts in, because that's just my preference. I'll try to more mindful about it in the future, on future posts and pages. Would you prefer to have documentation submitted by the community and people like myself who volunteer docs to delegated members to format uniformly on the wiki, rather than posting it myself? Would it be possible to change the resulting output of your html2wiki script to something the CentOS Wiki uses ? I don't think it can be that hard as it mainly is the syntax for the headings. -- -- dag wieers, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
[CentOS-docs] [artwork] Image for external links
Hi, Can we use the same image for external links on the wiki as we are using for Trac ? It is much less obtrusive in pieces of text. A gray box with arrow instead of a colorful globe. -- -- dag wieers, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] [artwork] Image for external links
On Sun, 2 Nov 2008, Dag Wieers wrote: Can we use the same image for external links on the wiki as we are using for Trac ? It is much less obtrusive in pieces of text. A gray box with arrow instead of a colorful globe. Also I have noticed the image (colorful globe) and the link behind it to be broken in 2 lines. So it would be better to have a somthing like a between the image and the link. I see this in the Download table for the Release Email/Release Notes column: http://wiki.centos.org/Download -- -- dag wieers, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] [artwork] Image for external links
On Mon, 3 Nov 2008, Ralph Angenendt wrote: Dag Wieers wrote: Also I have noticed the image (colorful globe) and the link behind it to be broken in 2 lines. So it would be better to have a somthing like a between the image and the link. I see this in the Download table for the Release Email/Release Notes column: http://wiki.centos.org/Download Why did you use an "http" link in there instead of using a relative link into the wiki? Okay, then you would have "one nothing, one globe", but ... Good catch. I guess I just entered all the URLs I found with Google and did not make the distinction between the external and internal. But it was more about the principle of the problem than the example, really. I have seen the same problem on other pages and the colorful globe is very distracting when reading. Something more subtle like the icon from Trac is more appropriate IMO. -- -- dag wieers, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] [artwork] Image for external links
On Mon, 3 Nov 2008, Dag Wieers wrote: On Mon, 3 Nov 2008, Ralph Angenendt wrote: Dag Wieers wrote: > Also I have noticed the image (colorful globe) and the link behind it to > be broken in 2 lines. So it would be better to have a somthing like a > between the image and the link. > > I see this in the Download table for the Release Email/Release Notes > column: > http://wiki.centos.org/Download Why did you use an "http" link in there instead of using a relative link into the wiki? Okay, then you would have "one nothing, one globe", but ... Good catch. I guess I just entered all the URLs I found with Google and did not make the distinction between the external and internal. But it was more about the principle of the problem than the example, really. I have seen the same problem on other pages and the colorful globe is very distracting when reading. Something more subtle like the icon from Trac is more appropriate IMO. Ok, forget it. I need to learn to read first _all_ mails and then go back to then ones that I wanted to answer. Sigh :) -- -- dag wieers, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] Test-driving RHEL Betas
On Mon, 3 Nov 2008, Karanbir Singh wrote: Marcus Moeller wrote: Good Evening (Dag and Karan), I have noticed the slight changes on the Download Page which is now linking to the RHEL Betas and want to take the discussion to the ML instead of the Wiki. I would personally prefer to link to the RHEL Betas from a (not yet created) Test-driving RHEL SIG page instead of the CentOS download page. This should be meant to promote project related downloads (resources provided by CentOS) only. I dont understand the fascination with the RHEL beta's at all. They clearly dont want it in the open space, so why are we pushing for that ? Has anyone spoken to the people at Redhat ? What have they said ? When are we going to see the public images ? Rather than going ahead and placing stuff like that on the website, there should at the very least be a discussion about this. Ironic that Dag would comment on this issue asking for a discussion when he asked the question earlier and never bothered replying to comments that people made to his question. I can see that Dag has reinstated the portion that I removed earlier today. Dag perhaps you missed my comment to your question ? or you rather wish to ignore it at the time w.r.t what we could / should do with the RHEL betas ? I did no have anything to add. I do understand your point and I agree with it partly. I normally do not ack on every email that I agree with. We are not pushing the RHEL Betas by mentioning it on the wiki, are we ? You did not say we should not mention it. Other people replied favorably. I indicated on the wiki that you needed a RHN entitlement to be able to download it (which is what I think Tim wanted) so how is that pushing ? And yes I contacted Red Hat via 3 different people and I am awaiting feedback. One person pushed it internally within Red Hat. The problem here is that you are strongly against it while at least 2 people were favorable. And that you removed my changes with a question through the wiki comments that I could have answered by email. I have no problem to discuss it, or change it, or move it to another part, or even remove if completely. But I do object to the communication-by-wiki style. And I do object to the fact that if you disagree with something it seems to be the law. That is why I put it back and answered your question where it was asked, through the wiki comments. -- -- dag wieers, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] Test-driving RHEL Betas
On Mon, 3 Nov 2008, Marcus Moeller wrote: Good Evening. I dont understand the fascination with the RHEL beta's at all. They clearly dont want it in the open space, so why are we pushing for that ? I don't think that pushing RH's beta is such a bad idea as it will help improving CentOS. But afaik there won't be any 'open' RHEL betas in the near future. The more important aspect I guess is to promote using the RH bug tracker and to train users to decide on their own wherever a bug is related to upstream or to CentOS. That's what this page was for, really: http://wiki.centos.org/Contribute Feel free to remove that one without a notice too. See if I still care. -- -- dag wieers, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] Test-driving RHEL Betas
On Mon, 3 Nov 2008, Karanbir Singh wrote: Dag Wieers wrote: That's what this page was for, really: http://wiki.centos.org/Contribute Would this sort of a testing effort be better handled under the ageis of the QA Effort rather than the Contribute page ? Most people who use CentOS and want to contribute dont have RHN access or wish to consider RHN access ( opinion based purely on conversations with people at Expo's, shows and emails ). Well the Contribute page should list all different kinds of way to contribute and QA is one of them. Whether encouraging people to test out RHEL falls under the QA SIG is debatable. Reported problems go directly upstream. We may want to keep track of reported problems, and maybe tested hardware. It could be organised as the current QA is organised if we have resources to manage it. Maybe we should ask the QA SIG if they are interested to have this happen under their hood or not. In my opinion this is way to soon to organize. -- -- dag wieers, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] Test-driving RHEL Betas
On Mon, 3 Nov 2008, Karanbir Singh wrote: Dag Wieers wrote: We are not pushing the RHEL Betas by mentioning it on the wiki, are we ? Putting it on the Download page, we most certainly are pushing it. You need a RHN entitlement. So that's hardly pushing. Look at it from some other angels. - It shows people we are helping to give back to upstream (and not just reaping) - It encourages people to help CentOS as well - It shows Red Hat we are willing to help with Beta-testing even when a RHN entitlement is required, showing that we care about this sends a message. And I don't see a big problem with having this on the Download page. It clearly says test-driving, beta's, I put it at the end of the page. I think this is different than test repositories where it is much easier to make a mistake on an existing production system. btw, upstream seemed quite firm on not doing so ( my impression again ) when the same issue was quite hotly contested as a sub-issue in the fedora-devel conversation about wikipedia's move to ubuntu and implications / fallouts from that. Did they discuss the availability of RHEL Betas during that conversation ? I have no problem to discuss it, or change it, or move it to another part, or even remove if completely. But I do object to the communication-by-wiki style. And I do object to the fact that if you disagree with something it seems to be the law. That is why I put it back and answered your question where it was asked, through the wiki comments. my bad, perhaps a s/?/!/ would have gone down better in the comment log ( which by the way, we should all do a lot more of - add comments to commits ) BTW My original change did contain a comment on what I just added. -- -- dag wieers, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] Opening of the wiki Part III(?) ...
On Mon, 3 Nov 2008, Marcus Moeller wrote: North American Enterprise Linux vendor" phrase that appears on the website. Presumably this dates back to a time when Red Hat was less receptive to CentOS but that has changed now? Is this something that could/should be dropped now relations are friendlier? You may want to take a look at the Trademark Guidelines, Ch.A. Use of the Brand ... "The only way to obtain permissions to use the RH's trademark is by entering into a written license agreement with RH Inc. ... Absolutely no exeptions." But maybe we could just ask for it. It's not because Red Hat is a trademark that you can not reference Red Hat by name. We have been in this discussion before. You don't need Red Hat's approval to reference them. There are things you have to avoid, like not pretend to be Red Hat, or speak in the name of Red Hat, or imply Red Hat is endorsing something. I guess the easiest to avoid it is mentioning that Red Hat is a trademark owned by Red Hat inc. -- -- dag wieers, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
[CentOS-docs] CentOS Events on wiki menu
Hi, Is it possible to rename the CentOS Events tab to simply Events ? The other tabs do not include CentOS either. For a published article today I required a desktop screenshot. However on 1024x768 with a non-fullscreen browser at wiki.centos.org, the number of tabs required me to make the browser-width larger than I liked it to be. Renaming "CentOS Events" to "Events" would have helped a bit. -- -- dag wieers, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] initial draft for Samsung NC10
On Mon, 8 Dec 2008, Scott Robbins wrote: > The version in the repo is from 2007 which isn't even shown in the > Madwifi snapshot list anymore, unless it's been getting updated and the > date doesn't reflect that. I have no problem updating it, if someone spends the time making sure the SPEC changes work and the new package builds cleanly and works on the madwifi hardware. -- -- dag wieers, [EMAIL PROTECTED], http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
[CentOS-docs] Disabling automatic links for mixed case in MoinMoin
Hi, I would like to request to disable the behaviour where MoinMoin automatically create a link for a mixed case word like NetworkManager. Is that possible ? Also, where are we regarding the external link icon (globe) ? Did anyone object for using the one from trac ? -- -- dag wieers, d...@wieers.com, http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] Disabling automatic links for mixed case in MoinMoin
On Sat, 20 Dec 2008, Scott Robbins wrote: > On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 11:54:11AM +, Ned Slider wrote: >> Dag Wieers wrote: >> >>> I would like to request to disable the behaviour where MoinMoin >>> automatically create a link for a mixed case word like NetworkManager. >>> >>> Is that possible ? >> >> +1 for that. >> >> If it's not possible, I believe links can be manually disabled with the >> syntax !NetworkManager, for example. > > You're correct--and one day, I really *will* go through all my articles > and fix the ones that I did before finding that out. :) Don't bother, I really want to disable the behaviour (and look through the existing articles to make links out of non-links). -- -- dag wieers, d...@centos.org, http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
[CentOS-docs] Merging 2 contribute pages
Hi, I have merged the HowToContribute and Contribute pages onto the Contribute link. But the tab on the top points to HowToContribute, while the link on the first page references the Contribute page. Is it possible to link the Contribute tab on the top to the Contribute page instead and then remove the HowToContribute page ? I now added a simple #REDIRECT (after trying to rename it over a deleted Contribute page, bad idea it seemed ;-)) Thanks in advance, -- -- dag wieers, d...@wieers.com, http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
[CentOS-docs] Merging Documentation and Help pages
Hi, Going over the wiki some more I noticed that the GettingHelp and Documentation page contain the same type of information and could be merged (and reduced) as well. On the FrontPage it is called "Learn" (which I like) and points to the Documentation page. On top it says "Help" and points to the GettingHelp page. I would prefer to keep the Documentation page (or rename it to Learn or Help, I don't mind) and point the Help tab to the same page. And Redirecting from the original GettingHelp page to this new page. Can I do this ? (The information on top of the GettingHelp page contains instructions that I do not understand) -- -- dag wieers, d...@wieers.com, http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
[CentOS-docs] Screenshot on FrontPage
Hi, This is to notify that I have put a screenshot on the FrontPage. It is not an exciting screenshot, just a simple default desktop with the browser opened and pointed to the wiki itself. I know I should have put it on the development wiki first and get consensus, but sadly I cannot find the development wiki (thought it was wiki-m.centos.org, but that one is not responding). If people object to it, feel free to remove it. However I think it looks fine, even when the screenshot could be improved. (Although we should not make the screenshot too complex) -- -- dag wieers, d...@wieers.com, http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] Screenshot on FrontPage
On Tue, 30 Dec 2008, Fabian Arrotin wrote: > Dag Wieers wrote: > >> This is to notify that I have put a screenshot on the FrontPage. It is not >> an exciting screenshot, just a simple default desktop with the browser >> opened and pointed to the wiki itself. > > hmm, is it possible to at least take the screenshot as a *non* root user ? > I don't think the goal is to provide wiki users bad habits :-p Sure, be my guest. I took this one on a newly installed machine that was going to be scratched anyway. So I didn't see the point in creating a user. Little did I know the username was visible somewhere ;-) -- -- dag wieers, d...@centos.org, http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] Screenshot on FrontPage
On Tue, 30 Dec 2008, Dag Wieers wrote: > On Tue, 30 Dec 2008, Fabian Arrotin wrote: >> Dag Wieers wrote: >> >>> This is to notify that I have put a screenshot on the FrontPage. It is not >>> an exciting screenshot, just a simple default desktop with the browser >>> opened and pointed to the wiki itself. >> >> hmm, is it possible to at least take the screenshot as a *non* root user ? >> I don't think the goal is to provide wiki users bad habits :-p > > Sure, be my guest. I took this one on a newly installed machine that was > going to be scratched anyway. So I didn't see the point in creating a > user. Little did I know the username was visible somewhere ;-) Hmm, maybe if the artwork SIG has time for this, they (no doubt) can make a more appealing screenshot that is technically and estethically better. I am also not convinced about the black border, but I lack the proper skills to make it match with the rest of the project style. I actually got the idea for the screenshot and the MoinMoin code from the FOSDEM 2009 page, which I like because it has a picture ;-) -- -- dag wieers, d...@centos.org, http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] Merging Documentation and Help pages
On Wed, 31 Dec 2008, Ralph Angenendt wrote: > Dag Wieers wrote: >> I would prefer to keep the Documentation page (or rename it to Learn or >> Help, I don't mind) and point the Help tab to the same page. And >> Redirecting from the original GettingHelp page to this new page. > > Sure, this should be possible (and we also can change the link the Tab > points to). Great, I merged both and added a redirect so that other links are still valid. Can you change the Help tab to point to Documentation ? (Keeping the Help name seems very useful) The Documentation page could use some more cleanup work though. Should we actively look for wiki pages still referencing GettingHelp and HowToContribute and relink them to Documentation and Contribute pages ? If so, how can we do that ? -- -- dag wieers, d...@centos.org, http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] Wiki - Wireless Network with ndiswrapper
On Wed, 31 Dec 2008, robert pierson wrote: I have created my own documentation to get the wireless adapters on my laptops to work with ndiswrapper. It might be useful to have this posted to the Network section of the How To or Tips and Tricks... I tried to bring together all wireless solutions/issues here: http://wiki.centos.org/HowTos/Laptops/Wireless Admittedly, this page could use some help (and an addition for the newer iwlwifi and iwlagn drivers in CentOS 5.3 when it arrives). -- -- dag wieers, d...@centos.org, http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors]___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] Wiki - Wireless Network with ndiswrapper
On Wed, 31 Dec 2008, robert pierson wrote: Not being particularly saavy I was not able to get ndiswrapper working with the generic instructions provided and went to a few other sites to cobble the information together to get the wireless magic to work... Though I suppose it probably makes sense not to get too detailed and then clutter up the wiki with misc. mumbo jumbo. Here was the draft I created - For the Dell D830 with the Dell Wireless 1390/1395 cards that are recognized (using lspci -vnn) as Broadcom Corporation BCM4310 USB Controllers. The B43 driver and fwcutter application will not work. You may find ndiswrapper more suitable. yum install wine yum install ndiswrapper (1) mkdir /ndiswrapper_drivers (2) cd /ndiswrapper_drivers (3) wget http://ftp.us.dell.com/network/R174291.exe (4) wine R174291.exe I did a little test. usually you can extract files from executables either by using cabextract or unzip. And in this case you can simply do: unzip R174291.exe So we can drop the wine dependency. (5) Specify the location where it is going to be installed preferrably /ndiswrapper_drivers (6) cd DRIVER (7) Assuming that you have already ndiswrapper installed: ndiswrapper -i bcmwl5.inf (8) ndiswrapper -l (to check if its installed) you should get an output similar to this bcmwl5 : driver installed device (14E4:4315) present (9) sudo modprobe ndiswrapper (10) now i suggest you restart you computer (12) And then you can enable NetworkManager to use it. So to be honest I think we can write up some instructions for ndiswrapper that are less specific to your situation. What I see is: - Locate and download the windows drivers - Extract the archive (cabextract, unzip or use wine) - Use ndiswrapper on the .inf file - Verify that it installed correctly - Load ndiswrapper module And as an example you could give the instructions for your wireless card. -- -- dag wieers, d...@centos.org, http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors]___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] Merging Documentation and Help pages
On Thu, 1 Jan 2009, Ralph Angenendt wrote: > Dag Wieers wrote: > >> Should we actively look for wiki pages still referencing GettingHelp and >> HowToContribute and relink them to Documentation and Contribute pages ? >> >> If so, how can we do that ? > > By grepping through the pages ... > > http://wiki.centos.org/GettingHelp/ListInfo is referenced throughout the wiki, > for example. Yes, I knew about that one. Should we move that one now ? What would be a good location for it ? Mailinglists ? Documentation/Mailinglists ? For the new names of pages I try to get rid of mixed names like GettingHelp to get a higher Google ranking. Using slashes or dashes would probably be better, but for the whole documentation section I have no clue how we want to structure it in the future. PS The sitemap of the Frontpage looks already much better than it used to. -- -- dag wieers, d...@centos.org, http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
[CentOS-docs] Improving the PageRank of individual wiki pages
Hi, Let me first stress that the success of the wiki is tight to how many users find it as a resource. And that users will only find the wiki for their problems if it has a higher PageRank. (I am using PageRank as an example, other search engines would do better if we can implement some changes overall.) If we take the HowTos/Laptops/Wireless page as an example, the page is not part of the first 100 hits (using CentOS and Wireless as search keywords). So what can we do to improve the PageRank ? - Use better titles The page says "HowTos/Laptops/Wireless - CentOS Wiki", I think it would do much better if we could use the (first) page title, which would be: "Making Wireless work on your laptop" Is it possible to influence the title in MoinMoin ? Can we remove the CentOS Wiki part ? - Add keywords A way to add meta keywords to pages should help as well. Is that possible? The keywords should probably have a permanent CentOS in their at the end. If keywords are absent, it could list all words from the titles as (default) keywords - Add description Adding a meta description can help search engines as well to index the page. We could do this for the more important pages. Or use the first paragraph by default for all other. - Use the wiki URLs more often To promote the wiki, we should more often provide solutions from the Wiki and then reference them as answer on the mailinglist/forum. Instead of answering them on the mailinglist (and never add the info on the wiki). If we start doing this collectively, maybe we can spark it to others as well. - Easier to register We have discussed this before, what is the current status ? What else can we do to get more people to find the Wiki, and increase the number of people adding and changing the Wiki ? -- -- dag wieers, d...@wieers.com, http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
[CentOS-docs] Improving the website and forums
Hi, Something that is not helping us with Google is the prefix "www.centos.org - " to every page of the website (including the forums). It is annoying in the sense that it pushes the important keywords to the end of the title and sometimes out of view of regular users (yes, Google search resuls are trimmed). As an example, seaching for "wireless site:www.centos.org" results in titles that are missing all the important items: www.centos.org - Forums - CentOS 5 - Networking Support - Wireless ... 14.7. Establishing a Wireless Connection www.centos.org - Forums - CentOS 5 - Networking Support - Intel ... www.centos.org - Forums - CentOS 5 - Hardware Support - Hawking ... www.centos.org - Forums - CentOS 5 - Networking Support - Intel ... www.centos.org - Forums - CentOS 5 - Networking Support - CentOS 5 ... Hardware and Network Protection www.centos.org - Forums - CentOS 5 - Networking Support - try to ... Creating a Wireless Connection www.centos.org - Forums - CentOS 5 - Hardware Support - Intel ... This is awful, how would anyone find which of those forum articles matches what they're looking for ? My advise: - Get rid of the "www.centos.org -" prefix for all pages - Get rid of the "Forums -" prefix for the forums - Get rid of the "Networking Support" prefix for the forums - Move the "CentOS 5 -" to the end of the title (or get rid of it too) Not sure if it is possible from any configuration, else we should hack the responsible code to make it disappear. Can we put this on a TODO list ? Thanks, -- -- dag wieers, d...@wieers.com, http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] Improving the website and forums
On Sat, 3 Jan 2009, Akemi Yagi wrote: > On Sat, Jan 3, 2009 at 6:45 AM, Dag Wieers wrote: > >> www.centos.org - Forums - CentOS 5 - Networking Support - Wireless ... >> 14.7. Establishing a Wireless Connection >> www.centos.org - Forums - CentOS 5 - Networking Support - Intel ... > >> My advise: >> >> - Get rid of the "www.centos.org -" prefix for all pages > > Not sure how to achieve this, but if possible just change to "CentOS" > >> - Get rid of the "Forums -" prefix for the forums > > Without this, how would you be able to tell this is a Forum post? The > first two items may be combined into "CentOS Forums" ? People will see if this is the forum when they click through. It shouldn't matter to the person looking for a solution whether this is a forum, what matters is if the solution helps. And the more generic info in the front of the title, the less it is useful for the job at hand. >> - Get rid of the "Networking Support" prefix for the forums > > We can shorten to "Networking" but cannot get rid of the whole thing. > This is defined as the Forum Topics. We cannot remove it entirely. Why would that matter to the person googling for his keywords ? I don't mind that there is a structure within the forums for people using the forums, but there is no need to export that information to the title. (which is of little use to the forum users itself) >> - Move the "CentOS 5 -" to the end of the title (or get rid of it too) > > There is a history to this. Without the "CentOS 5" etc, management of > the CentOS Forums was very difficult and time-consuming (for us > moderators). So, this was added after discussion with Fabian and > Johnny. Again we can shorten it to "C5" for example. I don't mind of the categories for the forums, I do mind that everything is put in the page title making it impossible for people to find their answers. You can have one without the other, although it may require some fiddling. -- -- dag wieers, d...@centos.org, http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] Improving the website and forums
On Sat, 3 Jan 2009, Marcus Moeller wrote: > Dear Dag > >> Something that is not helping us with Google is the prefix "www.centos.org - >> " >> to every page of the website (including the forums). >> >> It is annoying in the sense that it pushes the important keywords to the >> end of the title and sometimes out of view of regular users (yes, Google >> search resuls are trimmed). > > I think the page title should of course start with CentOS.org or > CentOS to make cleat that this site is related to the distribution. I > agree that www.centos.org is not the best choice. > > This could be changed in CMS settings (xoops 'site name' I guess). Well, I disagree that this is useful for every individual page. The centos.org in the URL as well as in Google search result pretty much proves the point, we don't need it again in the page title (and certainly NOT at the beginning of the title). -- -- dag wieers, d...@centos.org, http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] Contributing on CentOS Wiki
On Sat, 3 Jan 2009, R P Herrold wrote: > On Fri, 2 Jan 2009, Vitor Afonso Strabello wrote: > >> Can I post a link to the "prominent North American >> Enterprise Linux vendor" about it also? > >> https://rhn.redhat.com/errata/RHBA-2008-0397.html > > Counsel for the PNAELV expressly asked that CentOS NOT 'deep > link' into their site. Do we have the complete text available ? Because afaik, all our security advisories link to theirs. And to be honest I don't see a good reason why we cannot link to their resources as we already do for bugfixes and security advisories. -- -- dag wieers, d...@centos.org, http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] Improving the website and forums
On Sat, 3 Jan 2009, Ralph Angenendt wrote: > JohnS wrote: >> Hey Dag, does the Wiki even have a Site Map? If not that can greatly >> help with the google searches (has to be submitted to Google). > > http://wiki.centos.org/TitleIndex is there. No idea if that is what Google > accepts as a sitemap. Interesting page. I learn new things about MoinMoin every day :) -- -- dag wieers, d...@centos.org, http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
[CentOS-docs] Getting rid of the How_Do_I_Become_a_CentOS_developer page
Hi, I removed the above page before, but I saw Russ added it again. Let me explain why I think that page needs to die. It offers little insight to how one can become a developer. What is a CentOS developer ? That's the first confusing part. The page answers the question with a: "show competence and things will happen" We have a much better Contribute page that highlights ways to contribute to the project. And it would be better to add all sorts of TODO lists there (one for Artwork, one for Promo, etc...) The mailinglist answers reflect the ideas at that time, but since we cannot update mails from that archive I would not point to previous answers on the mailinglist. (And the mailinglist links were also not working, but that's less relevant) It is much better to answer questions on the mailinglist by referencing the Wiki, then doing the reverse... The above page already caused some confusion in an interview about Fedora, where it was used to show that CentOS has no roadmap. It breaks my heart if content can be used in such a way and I only found out that the author's opinion was solemly based on that wiki page. http://howsoftwareis built.com/2008/12/21/interview-with-jeroen-van-meeuwen-fedora-project-vice-president-fedora-emea/ That was a reason for me to remove it, but what I should have done is redirect it to the Contribute page instead. So can we please get rid of it ? -- -- dag wieers, d...@wieers.com, http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
[CentOS-docs] Invalid SyntaxReference page in the wiki
Hi, Something which bothered me a few times in the past, the SyntaxReference link when you are editing a page points to: centoswiki/SyntaxReference That page did not exist, luckily it suggested the real location: SyntaxReference so it was not a real problem. But it may confuse other people in the future. So what I did for now was created the non-existing page and redirected it to SyntaxReference (since I now know how to redirect ;-)) We may want to fix it for real in MoinMoin (get rid of the centoswiki part wherever it is referenced) and delete the temporary redirect-page. -- -- dag wieers, d...@wieers.com, http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] Screenshot on FrontPage
On Tue, 30 Dec 2008, Marcus Moeller wrote: >>>>> This is to notify that I have put a screenshot on the FrontPage. It is not >>>>> an exciting screenshot, just a simple default desktop with the browser >>>>> opened and pointed to the wiki itself. >>>> >>>> hmm, is it possible to at least take the screenshot as a *non* root user ? >>>> I don't think the goal is to provide wiki users bad habits :-p >>> >>> Sure, be my guest. I took this one on a newly installed machine that was >>> going to be scratched anyway. So I didn't see the point in creating a >>> user. Little did I know the username was visible somewhere ;-) >> >> Hmm, maybe if the artwork SIG has time for this, they (no doubt) can make >> a more appealing screenshot that is technically and estethically better. >> >> I am also not convinced about the black border, but I lack the proper >> skills to make it match with the rest of the project style. > > I already wrote Al a mail on that. I guess we are going to find a way > to make it look prettier, but my though still is that a screenshot on > the frontpage is simply not necessary nor useful. It also does not > scale well on small devices (try to take a look at it on your e71). > > Instead I would suggest to put a set of screenshots either on a > separate page or on the 'Download' site. I do agree that it does not look very good on my Nokia E71. On the other hand, how many of the visitors are using a mobile phone ? We may never know. If we find a solution that works for both I am happy to implement it in the future. However based on your suggestion I took some time to improve how it looks. I got rid of the black border and "Enlarge screenshot" link. I found a way to make a clickable image, which may open the door to having a FrontPage that consists of clickable images too ? :) I also created a seperate Screenshot wiki page to collect attractive screenshots of CentOS. My vision for this page would be to showcase some interesting visual applications (and maybe even visual attractive console stuff) and collect them on that page. (I prefer to not put screenshots there that distract users with different themes or complex configurations) The image still needs to be replaced, but I have yet to receive an improved version (both a 400x300 and a full size 1024x768). New images can be added, we just have to think of a way to make that managable. Alain, In case you were looking for this as well (I guess you would be the #1 user of things like this), the solution is this: ||[[ImageLink(screenshot-centos-small.png,Screenshots,width=400)]]|| or ||[[ImageLink(screenshot-centos-small.png,attachment:screenshot-centos.png,width=400)]]|| or simply look at the following page for more examples: http://moinmoin.wikiwikiweb.de/HelpOnMacros/ImageLink Kind regards, -- -- dag wieers, d...@centos.org, http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] Improving the website and forums
On Sat, 3 Jan 2009, Ralph Angenendt wrote: > JohnS wrote: >> >> On Sat, 2009-01-03 at 19:41 +0100, Ralph Angenendt wrote: >>> JohnS wrote: >>>> Hey Dag, does the Wiki even have a Site Map? If not that can greatly >>>> help with the google searches (has to be submitted to Google). >>> >>> http://wiki.centos.org/TitleIndex is there. No idea if that is what Google >>> accepts as a sitemap. >> >> No it has to be Submitted to Google. > > Yeah, I know that :) I have submitted 5 sitemaps to Google, the TitleIndex above (does not work) as well as the ?action=sitemap of the frontpage (made for it but limited). After that I also added the HowTos, TipsAndTricks and HowTos/Laptops sitemaps. We could always add some more of them. Any good suggestions ? I found these pages with additional information: http://moinmo.in/SearchEngineOptimization http://moinmo.in/ActionMarket/SiteMap Any feedback welcomed, -- -- dag wieers, d...@centos.org, http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
[CentOS-docs] Another attempt for a Team page
Hi all, I've updated our Team page a bit, added a table for everyone already there. Now I still don't like the fact that we have the distinction between the Core members (whatever that means) and the others. Some have a @centos.org email address, we could use that as a distinction ? I do think we need to make that page exclusive to people that have some sort of responsibility, and not to every wiki contributor per se. The only problem is where do we draw the line ? Some people have been valuable at events, others have been valuable at the Wiki and Forums. Some are crucial to the project as a whole, others could become crucial ;-) So what do we do with it, who decides who's going to be on that page. What rules do we lay down. I know this cuts right through the organisation, and I believe the project itself is ready for a reorganisation. My goals with a page like this are: - Put a name behind the nick, or a nick behind the name. For those that want it, put a face behind name/nick. Make the community about people so people can easier associate. Not everyone is accustomed to nicknames yet ! - Make it apparent who is in charge of what, give people a (public) responsibility so that new contributors know who to talk to, but also to make it clear that if you are no longer up to the task you step down from it. (Currently this often is fuzzy, people may have a different notion about their responsibility than what other think ?) - It formalises tasks and responsibilities - Reward the people that have a responsibility Now, along with that index page, it would be nice if we could also create a good template for every individual with the following (optional) items: - Name - Contact information - Interests - Person list of achievements - Personal TODO list - Biography - Links The aim for this is that people make a TODO list publically available, but also that they have a page to point to for the outside world if they value being part of the CentOS project. It can also help for the people in the community to know each other better. (Remember, I am not that much on IRC than others, so I miss out on much of the gossip !) Eg. I only recently learned from toracat that she had a blog ;-) So the Team page is a piece in building a stronger community and show outsiders they can be part of that excitement as well (although it comes with responsibilities !). Any ideas, help ? -- -- dag wieers, d...@wieers.com, http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] Another attempt for a Team page
On Sun, 4 Jan 2009, Dag Wieers wrote: > My goals with a page like this are: > > - Put a name behind the nick, or a nick behind the name. For those that >want it, put a face behind name/nick. Make the community about people >so people can easier associate. Not everyone is accustomed to nicknames >yet ! > > - Make it apparent who is in charge of what, give people a (public) >responsibility so that new contributors know who to talk to, but also >to make it clear that if you are no longer up to the task you step down >from it. (Currently this often is fuzzy, people may have a different >notion about their responsibility than what other think ?) > > - It formalises tasks and responsibilities > > - Reward the people that have a responsibility And in this case we can also get rid of the repeated Biographies of people that give presentations at conferences like we are doing now. So we can get rid of some more bloat. -- -- dag wieers, d...@centos.org, http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] Another attempt for a Team page
On Sun, 4 Jan 2009, Dag Wieers wrote: > On Sun, 4 Jan 2009, Dag Wieers wrote: > >> My goals with a page like this are: >> >> - Put a name behind the nick, or a nick behind the name. For those that >>want it, put a face behind name/nick. Make the community about people >>so people can easier associate. Not everyone is accustomed to nicknames >>yet ! >> >> - Make it apparent who is in charge of what, give people a (public) >>responsibility so that new contributors know who to talk to, but also >>to make it clear that if you are no longer up to the task you step down >>from it. (Currently this often is fuzzy, people may have a different >>notion about their responsibility than what other think ?) >> >> - It formalises tasks and responsibilities >> >> - Reward the people that have a responsibility > > And in this case we can also get rid of the repeated Biographies of people > that give presentations at conferences like we are doing now. So we can > get rid of some more bloat. I have updated my own page as some sort of template for others to use. http://wiki.centos.org/DagWieers Please comment :) -- -- dag wieers, d...@centos.org, http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] centos-doc] Contributing on CentOS Wiki
On Sun, 4 Jan 2009, R P Herrold wrote: > On Sat, 3 Jan 2009, Dag Wieers wrote: >> On Sat, 3 Jan 2009, R P Herrold wrote: >>> On Fri, 2 Jan 2009, Vitor Afonso Strabello wrote: >>> >>>> Can I post a link to the "prominent North American >>>> Enterprise Linux vendor" about it also? >>> >>>> https://rhn.redhat.com/errata/RHBA-2008-0397.html >>> >>> Counsel for the PNAELV expressly asked that CentOS NOT 'deep >>> link' into their site. >> >> Do we have the complete text available ? > > yes -- I see no reason to re-debate their position here, as it > simply picks open old wounds to no good end, and have provided > a link to you privately. If I read their position, they requested us to remove unauthorized use of RED HAT marks as well as improper use of Red Hat's IP, including within our web site metatags. They did object the use of their trademark in combination of linking to Red Hat's site, but they do not request from us to remove any links. Just the use of the trademark. So what we're already doing from bugs.centos.org and the security advisories does not seem to be a problem. Linking does not seem to be an issues to them according to what you send me. And wrt. the improper and unauthorized use of the trademark, there are ways to protect you from that (using the TM sign everywhere with a disclaimer). As long as we take proper care to make it absolutely clear we are not Red Hat there should not be a problem. That together with a formal request for revalidation of the website/wiki etc... should help us as well. By the way, X/OS answered their counsel that as soon as Oracle is complying, he would comply to the same rules as well. And never heard back :) -- -- dag wieers, d...@centos.org, http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] Contributing on CentOS Wiki
On Sun, 4 Jan 2009, R P Herrold wrote: > On Sun, 4 Jan 2009, Dag Wieers wrote: >> On Sun, 4 Jan 2009, R P Herrold wrote: >> >>> yes -- I see no reason to re-debate their position here, as it >>> simply picks open old wounds to no good end, and have provided >>> a link to you privately. >> >> If I read their position, ... >> >> They did object [to ] the use of ... > > Dag ... 'provided privately' means just that; It is immaterial > that the link may be 'findable' -- it was intentionally NOT > repeated by me here. > > PLEASE do not do this here and now, nor in a public forum. > To go through this as you have started is to say that you are > unwilling to respect my work in defusing the situation years > ago, nor my wish now. Russ, I have no knowledge of what work you did, what it entails and what the results of it were. I don't think I was involved in any way and the secrecy and non-transparancy is a hard pill to swallow. I don't think it does any good for CentOS, the project, especially if there is an unwillingness to explain the discrepancy of what is being said (we cannot "deep link") and what is done (security advisories, bugs, ...). We end up in half-measures and confusion as a result of scare-tactics. (I cannot guarantee that the issue ends with this, but this thread will.) -- -- dag wieers, d...@centos.org, http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] Improving the website and forums
On Mon, 5 Jan 2009, Karanbir Singh wrote: > Dag Wieers wrote: >> Something that is not helping us with Google is the prefix "www.centos.org - >> " >> to every page of the website (including the forums). > > Its good to see people taking some initiative on the seo side of things, > however most of whats in this thread seems to be oriented towards much > smaller sites, and does not apply to us in a large number of cases. Karanbir, Not all suggestions were related to SEO. Some of the suggestions were related to making more out of what people see from the search result, which is usability related. More people finding answers leads to more people linking to those answers. The example query I showed you proofs that all the clutter in the page titles make it impossible for potential visitors to understand what search result is valid from them based on Google's output. Simply search for "CentOS Wireless" or "CentOS Laptop" and you will see what I mean regarding the website/forum search results. The most important information (post subject) is almost useless. (There is little use in having 'www.centos.org -' in front of everything) And the fact that none of the wiki-pages are in the top is another problem. Those pages are definitely more important than most of the search results. The fact that the wiki title is not used is mostly to blame. So I would urge to have those thing fixed asap. -- -- dag wieers, d...@centos.org, http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] Improving the website and forums
On Mon, 5 Jan 2009, Ned Slider wrote: > Akemi Yagi wrote: >> On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 1:16 PM, Karanbir Singh wrote: >> >>> Forum moderators would be able to provide more feedback here : how >>> relevant and accurate are most topic's for threads ? If they are >>> bang-on, perhaps it might be a good idea to replace the entire title of >>> the page with just the title of the post, drop everything else. >> - subject to discussion>. >> >> Just my humble opinion (not quite as a forum moderator) ... I agree >> that it is not necessary to show the forum topics. Seeing "General >> Support", for example, does not add anything useful. Most people seem >> to put a short summary of the problem/question when they post. So the >> title of the post should be good as such when getting indexed. > > Agreed. The thread title should (hopefully) contain the keywords so > that's what should be returned by a search. > > Personally, I'd prefer to see the title of the thread/post followed by > the source returned for a search. So when googling "best Linux" the > searcher may get the following results: > > Is it true that CentOS is the best Linux ever? - CentOS forums > Is it true that CentOS is the best Linux ever? - CentOS Wiki > Is it true that CentOS is the best Linux ever? - CentOS Mailing List > > etc > > Now, if we could just do something about those URGENT - PLEASE HELP!!! > threads for which google returns 474,000 hits (not all of which are on > centos!) While I am mostly for removing as much as possible from the page title except the subject. I think there is a lot of value to still keep the CentOS-4, CentOS-5 identifier. Especially because people are not repeating that information since it is part of the forum-name/group already. I realize that this identifier is part of the forum name and therefor hard to put in the title though. I guess since it is part of the content it may not be that important in search results. But it would have been nice... -- -- dag wieers, d...@centos.org, http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] Improving the website and forums
On Tue, 6 Jan 2009, Karanbir Singh wrote: > Dag Wieers wrote: >> And the fact that none of the wiki-pages are in the top is another >> problem. Those pages are definitely more important than most of the search >> results. The fact that the wiki title is not used is mostly to blame. >> >> So I would urge to have those thing fixed asap. > > have you had a look at Moin code ? would it be easy to just replace the > /'s with ' ' ( space's ) in the title of the page ? that would be an > easy win. Right, but the title often says more than the wiki location. And in the case of the Laptop page, the location says Laptops, while nobody would be looking for the plural, I guess :-/ > Also, look for 'centos wireless' on Yahoo and MSN - I get wiki and forum > posts in the top 10, Actually - all the results returned are from within > .centos.org on both Y! and MSN. I guess Google is too smart ? On Google you also get a lot of centos.org results, but the wiki (the most important one if we want people to first read it before asking questions) is missing from the top 100 ! Same for the Laptops page. Maybe it is personalising the results in bad way for me ? :) -- -- dag wieers, d...@centos.org, http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] Improving the website and forums
On Tue, 6 Jan 2009, Alan Bartlett wrote:
> On 05/01/2009, Dag Wieers wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, 5 Jan 2009, Ned Slider wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Personally, I'd prefer to see the title of the thread/post followed by
>>> the source returned for a search. So when googling "best Linux" the
>>> searcher may get the following results:
>>>
>>> Is it true that CentOS is the best Linux ever? - CentOS forums
>>> Is it true that CentOS is the best Linux ever? - CentOS Wiki
>>> Is it true that CentOS is the best Linux ever? - CentOS Mailing List
>>>
>>> etc
>>>
>>> Now, if we could just do something about those URGENT - PLEASE HELP!!!
>>> threads for which google returns 474,000 hits (not all of which are on
>>> centos!)
>>
>> While I am mostly for removing as much as possible from the page title
>> except the subject. I think there is a lot of value to still keep the
>> CentOS-4, CentOS-5 identifier.
>
>
> As one who consistently and conscientiously reads *every* forum post, in
> reverse chronological order, every day of the year it is important -- to me
> -- that I have a visible indication of the CentOS version before I even open
> the thread (to read the post(s)).
>
> My reason for stating this point? So that a decision is not made to change
> the working (& structure) of the fora just to increase the CentOS page
> rankings, returned by a search engine, without giving serious consideration
> to the users of the fora.
I don't know why everyone seems to think we are going to change *ANYTHING*
to the way the forums work. The only thing I asked to consider is changing
the page title. Something a forum user would not even notice because that
is *NOT* what they see anywhere, unless in your tab. And now all your tabs
look like: "www.centos.org -" (if you can see that many characters)
I don't see any compelling reason to keep it that way...
And I am not asking for this to improve the page ranking. I am asking for
this because otherwise everybody using Google to find solutions is blind
for what a certain topic is until he opens the page. And that is plain
silly and will not attract a lot of users, let alone help them find what
he needs.
I thought my examples were pretty obvious, but I guess the whole thread
scared people into forgetting the examples ? Maybe ?
Can you please try to google for "CentOS Wireless site:www.centos.org" and
tell me which link you prefer without clicking through. It is simply
impossible since all the titles contain no valuable information to
differentiate.
Search Results
1. www.centos.org - Forums - CentOS 4 - Hardware Support - Intel ...
2. www.centos.org - Forums - CentOS 5 - Networking Support - CentOS 5
3. www.centos.org - Forums - CentOS 5 - Hardware Support - Hawking ...
4. www.centos.org - Forums - CentOS 4 - Hardware Support - Intel ...
5. www.centos.org - Forums - CentOS 4 - Networking Support - intel ...
6. www.centos.org - Forums - CentOS 5 - General Support - Getting ...
How very *NOT* useful.
--
-- dag wieers, d...@centos.org, http://dag.wieers.com/ --
[Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors]
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Re: [CentOS-docs] Improving the website and forums
On Tue, 6 Jan 2009, Akemi Yagi wrote: > On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 8:09 AM, Dag Wieers wrote: > >> I don't know why everyone seems to think we are going to change *ANYTHING* >> to the way the forums work. The only thing I asked to consider is changing >> the page title. Something a forum user would not even notice because that >> is *NOT* what they see anywhere, unless in your tab. And now all your tabs >> look like: "www.centos.org -" (if you can see that many characters) > > I assure you that I understood the point you were trying to make from > the very beginning. > > What I did not know is that preventing unwanted portions of the title > from appearing on google is technically possible. So, I thought the > only way to achieve this was to remove them from the original Forum > thread title. Ok, then I misunderstood you misunderstanding me ;-) The question indeed is, are we willing to modify the codebase to do this. There are a few options: - Only keeping the subject in the pagetitle (easy) - Switching the order of forum-name / subject - Using subject and CentOS release (hard) In any case my feeling is that the www.centos.org needs to go and the subject should go to the front. Everything else is a bonus ;-) I am willing to singlehandedly do this because I think this is one of the most important things to do. (After opening up Red Hat bugzilla to Google) Improving the wiki page title is also high up on my agenda (in this case SEO is somewhat more important) but te main goal is to help get better search results and in return more happy CentOS people, more contributions and profit ! (At least I will be more happy ;-)) -- -- dag wieers, d...@centos.org, http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] Merging Documentation and Help pages
On Tue, 6 Jan 2009, Karanbir Singh wrote: > Dag Wieers wrote: >> Going over the wiki some more I noticed that the GettingHelp and >> Documentation page contain the same type of information and could be >> merged (and reduced) as well. > > Why? At the moment with the Getting Help page gone, it looks a bit silly > to have it redirect to the Docs page - There are other ways of getting > help rather than Documentation. > > I would like to re-instate the GettingHelp page, its also what we point > people at when we refer personal emails etc to the community for > specific issue support. > > Also, I'd like to deprecate wiki urls on the Docs page to lower down the > order - the first port of call on the Docs page should be the manuals > and guides already published on the website and included in the distro. > > If noone has any objections to this, I'd like to make the change later today The Documentation page contained a few links to the different sections (like FAQ, HOWTOs, Manuals and TipsAndTricks) which was identical to what was on the GettingHelp page. For someone looking for information you have more than one way to find it, the documentation is one of them. I see no benefit of having two entry-points for people that are looking for information, where one is ommiting mailinglist, search, forums, ... Look at it from another perspective, if you need help and have the misfortune to only click on the Learn (documentation) link you'd be limited to only the Howtos, FAQ, TipsAndTrick and manuals, while the forums, search and mailinglist may be more adequate for your problem. That was the main motivation to have a single entry-point for people looking for information. Whether it is something that is solved by documentation or not. -- -- dag wieers, d...@centos.org, http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] Merging Documentation and Help pages
On Tue, 6 Jan 2009, Karanbir Singh wrote: > Ralph Angenendt wrote: >> Sure, this should be possible (and we also can change the link the Tab >> points to). > > How would one assume that 'Getting Help' and Documentation are the same > thing ? > > And I am also guessing that quite a wide angle of imagination was used > to work out IRC and Forums as part of the project Documentation. I think you are too focused on the wikiname 'Documentation', the entry-point is called 'Learn' and 'GettingHelp' from the main page. I consolidated to Documentation because that was the most wide-spread, but a consolidation to GettingHelp was possible (as I mentioned). -- -- dag wieers, d...@centos.org, http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] Merging Documentation and Help pages
On Wed, 7 Jan 2009, Karanbir Singh wrote: > Dag Wieers wrote: >> That was the main motivation to have a single entry-point for people >> looking for information. Whether it is something that is solved by >> documentation or not. > > All of what you said here makes sense, but then surely its the other way > the merge should take place - people who want help are more likely to > look at a 'Getting Help' page rather than a Documentation page - And we > should then change the tab's and url's to point at that page. Perhaps > Documentation can be a part of that page itself. Karanbir, I don't mind what the name is of that page. So sure call it GettingHelp and redirect Documentation to it by all means. For me that is basically the same. (Although I like Documentation more because with the current naming of pages GettingHelp is a word Google does not understand) Basically we used Help / Learn as entry-points because those are much more generic and friendlier than "GettingHelp / Documentation". Maybe we should make Help the name of the page ? The redirect takes care of people getting to the wrong one anyhow. > One thing that we dont highlight enough is that its often a good idea to > talk to the local LUG or peer's who might already be using Linux. In > other cases, its a good idea to talk to the people who sold you a > specific solution as well. Is this advice we should give on the Help/Learn page ? I was thinking in the car today to make some sort of 10 commandments page for CentOS/Open Source with the 10 things we value the most from community members. Much like the 10 commandments they would give clear and short instructions (with and elaborate explanation if you click on them). Something like this may give us some media attention as well if we play it well. > On the flip side the docs page could be expanded quite a bit as well to > have deeper links into things like the deployment guide / > virtualisation guide etc so people know whats on the other end. Eg. look > at the present Documentation page, think of someone who has not used > CentOS before - what would be the most apt url to click if you want to > find out howto install the distro. I stared at the page for a few > minutes and failed, so took the first option listed there which is to > search the wiki. Searching for 'install' on the wiki has interesting > results. none of which are really relevant :D [1] > [1] I wonder if its possible to get rid of all those extra Moin pages > that seem to come up with every search :/ Doing the same, I think we should remove all the MoinMoin specific pages. Someone searching the CentOS wiki should not find MoinMoin related pages. Secondly, we could for specific search items like 'install' create seperate pages. Although in this case I would personally make the Search form use Google with site:wiki.centos.org (and maybe a button with site:centos.org). And if we add some more info for Google we even might earn something for the project. There is a possibility to make a specific CentOS search (I created one to test) with a list of specific URLs about certain topics. That's a possibility as well. > Once we can get a resonable Documentation page in place, we could then > divert www.centos.org/docs/ page to the wiki page. ( but leave the > manuals where they are ) > > Btw, that 'Learn' url on the wiki.centos.org could be changed to > something that is more relevant. Getting Help might be a good option for > that as well. At the moment, its 'Learn' pointing to a page called > 'Documentation' that is really a Getting Help page. We have both Help and Learn on that first page because it may attract to different people. Some people are looking to learn something, others need help for something specific. In both cases the list of items on the Documentation page is on topic. Personally I don't see a good reason to have the same (named) tabs on top as on the main wiki page. That's why I thought it was started to keep the one on top called 'Help' (always visible for people who end up somewhere else on the wiki and want to click through) and the 'Learn' link will attract to wanderers who are interested in anything, but not somethin specific. So shall I go round and remove those MoinMoin pages. (Not redirect to the MoinMoin website since that would still trigger them on a search) -- -- dag wieers, d...@centos.org, http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
Re: [CentOS-docs] Merging Documentation and Help pages
On Wed, 7 Jan 2009, Karanbir Singh wrote: > Dag Wieers wrote: >> I consolidated to Documentation because that was the most wide-spread, but >> a consolidation to GettingHelp was possible (as I mentioned). > > right, but I just feel that we should expand on the Docs page to include > more content, and move Getting Help related issues away from there. We > could then promote that Getting Help page as an entry point with the > Docs page being more docs focused. Ok, tell me how that Docs page should look like. Because how it used to be was simply a list of links to Howtos, FAQs, TipsAndTricks. That is no more useful than the general GettingHelp page. With the added bonus that someone who thinks he needs Documentation, finds that some mailinglist or a proper search is as good, or better than the documentation available. In fact, if I need some information I wouldn't know whether to look in the FAQ, go to the HowTos or need the TipsAndTricks, or maybe the Additional Resources ?? So the first suggestion, to search is likely the best anyway. If that doesn't work he can still go back to look at one of the other suggestions. (And if the Search results are not good, let's work on that, using Google, improve the page names or clean up the wiki) Personally I think we need to consolidate some of the HowTos, TipsAndTricks and Additional Resources, but that is a much harder task and something more knowledgable about the whole content should look at. Eg. - Why is the Laptops page under the HowTo ? - Why is the repository information under AdditionalResources ? > Although, one might argue that perhaps the Wiki homepage should / could > be that Getting Help page. Well, I disagree because that was how it used to be. And then we scare a lot of people away with too many options. The more information, the less is read. PS I think we need to reorder the tabs at the top as well. But not before we restructure the different documentation sections. -- -- dag wieers, d...@centos.org, http://dag.wieers.com/ -- [Any errors in spelling, tact or fact are transmission errors] ___ CentOS-docs mailing list CentOS-docs@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos-docs
