Re: Dead Beat Clients.

[s. isaac dealey]

> I think that is normally the case, I am seeming to recall certain
> forms of labor in some of our businesses we had to do sales tax on. 
> One could maybe debate if code is a "product" though.

I would think it would at least depend on who owns the copyright. If
you're selling a license and retaining the copyright then there's a case
for it being a "product". If they get the copyright, then it's
definitely a service, same as any other "work for hire". Though I
suppose it might be arguable that the license to use someone else's
intellectual property is a "service" -- I'm not that familiar with IP
law though, so I know that's out of my depth. 


-- 
s. isaac dealey  ^  new epoch
 isn't it time for a change? 
 ph: 503.236.3691

http://onTap.riaforge.org/blog



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Re: Dead Beat Clients.

[Aaron Rouse]

I think that is normally the case, I am seeming to recall certain forms of
labor in some of our businesses we had to do sales tax on.  One could maybe
debate if code is a "product" though.

On Feb 3, 2008 10:24 PM, s. isaac dealey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> >   In fact, I'm probably treated a bit better because in Connecticut,
> > web development services are exempt from sales tax, which is one less
> > headache I have to deal with.
>
> I thought sales tax only applied to product. Am I like way out of touch?
>
> --
> s. isaac dealey  ^  new epoch
>  isn't it time for a change?
> ph: 503.236.3691
>
> http://onTap.riaforge.org/blog
>
>
>
> 

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Re: Dead Beat Clients.

[s. isaac dealey]

>   In fact, I'm probably treated a bit better because in Connecticut,
> web development services are exempt from sales tax, which is one less
> headache I have to deal with.

I thought sales tax only applied to product. Am I like way out of touch? 

-- 
s. isaac dealey  ^  new epoch
 isn't it time for a change? 
 ph: 503.236.3691

http://onTap.riaforge.org/blog



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Re: Dead Beat Clients.

[Aaron Rouse]

Sorry, but when I first ran into it is when I was doing
network/hardware/software consulting which was a number of years ago,
probably over 10 and I have long since slept since then.  All I remember at
the time was there were some specific things that as an IT person we are
treated different than other trades even though in both trades the people
would be independent contractors.  It just was not something that every
morning I woke up and thought to myself "that damn 'tax man' needs to change
this crap" instead it was something I discovered and just moved on past.  It
might have been a state thing but I think it was federal just because at the
time I remember thinking about how in the merchant marines we at least had
organized groups of people who lobbied and often helped us more so than hurt
us in what they were lobbying for.  I actually have a rather negative
opinion of unions, they seem like a good idea but more often than not they
seem to evolve into something not so helpful.

On Feb 3, 2008 10:13 PM, Jeffry Houser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>  I was wondering that too...
>
>  I don't believe that myself, as a business owner, is treated any
> differently than other business owners who are no in the IT field.
>
>  In fact, I'm probably treated a bit better because in Connecticut, web
> development services are exempt from sales tax, which is one less
> headache I have to deal with.
>
> William Seiter wrote:
> > What kind of issues have you seen with the 'Tax Man'?
> >
>
> --
> Jeffry Houser, Technical Entrepreneur, Software Developer, Author,
> Recording Engineer
> AIM: Reboog711  | Phone: 1-203-379-0773
> --
> My Company: 
> My Podcast: 
> My Blog: 
>
>
> 

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Re: Dead Beat Clients.

[Jeffry Houser]

  I was wondering that too...

  I don't believe that myself, as a business owner, is treated any 
differently than other business owners who are no in the IT field.

  In fact, I'm probably treated a bit better because in Connecticut, web 
development services are exempt from sales tax, which is one less 
headache I have to deal with.

William Seiter wrote:
> What kind of issues have you seen with the 'Tax Man'?
> 

-- 
Jeffry Houser, Technical Entrepreneur, Software Developer, Author, 
Recording Engineer
AIM: Reboog711  | Phone: 1-203-379-0773
--
My Company: 
My Podcast: 
My Blog: 


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Re: Dead Beat Clients.

[Jeffry Houser]

  I thought unions dealt with employer-employee relationships; whereas 
this thread has been dealing with "company - vendor" relationships.  Am 
I wrong in that?

  I can't imagine how a "programmer's union" would help me.

Jerry Johnson wrote:
> I think unions are the single biggest evil in America today.
> 
> If unions started making their way into programming, I would gladly
> trumpet my non-union status, and if it ever became impossible to do
> work without a union card, I would find another line of work.
> 
> On Feb 3, 2008 3:36 PM, William Seiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> I agree that having a union would be good for working with dead beat clients
>> as well as with obtaining good contracts, but a union should go further.  To
>> a client, a union has become the essence of 'good training'.  Would we have
>> an apprentice system?  Would we develop 'union programming standards'?
>>
> 
> 

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Re: Dead Beat Clients.

[s. isaac dealey]

> It is true that I do not have much contracting experience. And I am
> probably naive about all the things that can go wrong. Because of
> this and due to Isaac's comments, I will retract my comment that
> because a contractor has had several non-paying clients that the
> contractor is at fault.

Thanks Matt. :) I really hadn't intended to single you out per se, and
was more voting for the "grain of salt" approach I think. But you
wouldn't believe the amount of anxiety I have over posting that message.
Or maybe you would. heh... suffice to say it makes me pretty
uncomfortable to post something like that and I'm glad that it was well
received by at least one person. :) 


-- 
s. isaac dealey  ^  new epoch
 isn't it time for a change? 
 ph: 503.236.3691

http://onTap.riaforge.org/blog



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Re: Dead Beat Clients.

[Jerry Johnson]

I think unions are the single biggest evil in America today.

If unions started making their way into programming, I would gladly
trumpet my non-union status, and if it ever became impossible to do
work without a union card, I would find another line of work.

On Feb 3, 2008 3:36 PM, William Seiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I agree that having a union would be good for working with dead beat clients
> as well as with obtaining good contracts, but a union should go further.  To
> a client, a union has become the essence of 'good training'.  Would we have
> an apprentice system?  Would we develop 'union programming standards'?
>

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RE: Dead Beat Clients.

[William Seiter]

What kind of issues have you seen with the 'Tax Man'?

-- 
William E. Seiter
 
Have you ever read a book that changed your life?
Go to: www.winninginthemargins.com
Enter passkey: goldengrove
 
Web Developer / ColdFusion Programmer
http://William.Seiter.com

-Original Message-
From: Aaron Rouse [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2008 2:05 PM
To: CF-Jobs-Talk
Subject: Re: Dead Beat Clients.

Some collective representation for IT workers has its advantages and I am
sure disadvantages as well.  One thing that has always annoyed me is how IT
workers are treated by the tax man vs some other occupations and I think a
collective representation could have the power in numbers to change things
like that.

On Feb 3, 2008 2:36 PM, William Seiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I agree that having a union would be good for working with dead beat
> clients
> as well as with obtaining good contracts, but a union should go further.
>  To
> a client, a union has become the essence of 'good training'.  Would we
> have
> an apprentice system?  Would we develop 'union programming standards'?
>
> I think that having a union is a step in the right direction, but it is a
> long road to get there.  Maybe we can have a poll to see how many people
> would support it.
>
> In the mean time I would suggest that everyone have access to a lawyer or
> a
> lawyer system (pre-paid legal).  This way you can have a lawyer draft a
> letter when you aren't paid, and you can have your 'basic' contract
> reviewed.
>
> Regarding contracts.  Does anyone have any contract examples that have
> worked well that they would share with the rest of us?
>
> William
>
> --
> William E. Seiter
>
> Have you ever read a book that changed your life?
> Go to: www.winninginthemargins.com
> Enter passkey: goldengrove
>
> Web Developer / ColdFusion Programmer
> http://William.Seiter.com
> -Original Message-
> From: Vincent Cannady [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2008 10:10 AM
> To: CF-Jobs-Talk
> Subject: Re: Dead Beat Clients.
>
> Hi Matt,
>
> From what I read you have never had many contracts but I can vouch for
> what
> Angry Housewife says that I too have been paid when I go client locations
> to
> work but when I am up at three o clock in the morning doing work and
> submit
> for those hours I never seem to get paid even if I email or IM the client
> at
> that time. I have worked in the Contracts Department of companies like
> Sprint and Cingular and I have seen them get burned and have to resort to
> Suing to get their money back so again I have to disagree with you about
> negotiations. A Contract is a contract; here are the three ways you can
> break a contract per the UCC -Uniform Code of Commerce
>
> #1 Incapacity- Mentally Unfit to make a contract
> #2 Age - To young to be making a contract
> #3 Breach of contract - One party or another did not complete part of
> contract
>
> So in our case it is almost always number three either the developer did
> not
> do ANYWORK (or they signed a completed project contract)
> or the Client Breached the Contract by not paying
>
> Here is the one I find funny- A Client that breeches the contract usually
> wants to hold you (the Consultant) to a NDA (Non Disclosure Agreement)
> meaning no contact with his or her end client after they terminated your
> services even though they have not paid you.
>
> Ok. So Jeff has some experience with this so have I, I have worked for two
> different Law Enforcement Agencies, Two Different Court Houses in two
> different States, I have friends who are lawyers. I am an expert in
> Contract
> Law. And I always look up clients  on WWW.PACER.GOV (Federal DISTRICT
> Court
> Houses Case Party Index) yet I too get burned so UNLIKE you I do not
> consider getting burned me not KNOWING how to negotiate. I was my School
> Debate Champion and have won lawsuits again Fortune 500 Companies
> representing myself (pro se).
>
> The list she talks about is needed. She also has another point no one has
> picked up on, What about us HAVING A UNION. The all contracts would go
> thru
> the Union anynone not paying would be sued by the Union. Programmer would
> not need to come up with $2000 just to get back $2500. Instead they could
> pay 120 a year or $10 a Month to belong to a "National Technology Workers
> Union" that would have attorneys on staff would could deal with this mess,
>
> I think that until that day comes along we should have this list and if
> the
> Clients want a list of Bad Programmers they had better pay one of US to
> create IT!
>
>
> Just my $10,000!
>
> > On Feb 2, 2008 6:55 PM, angry housewife <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > I have watched my husband work very hard for three or four contracts
> > in the last six months where he has only been paid ten percent of his
> > total invoiced hours. My husband never signs a contract where the work
> > has to be completed before he is paid, yet every client of his who has
> > not paid u

Re: Dead Beat Clients.

[Aaron Rouse]

Some collective representation for IT workers has its advantages and I am
sure disadvantages as well.  One thing that has always annoyed me is how IT
workers are treated by the tax man vs some other occupations and I think a
collective representation could have the power in numbers to change things
like that.

On Feb 3, 2008 2:36 PM, William Seiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I agree that having a union would be good for working with dead beat
> clients
> as well as with obtaining good contracts, but a union should go further.
>  To
> a client, a union has become the essence of 'good training'.  Would we
> have
> an apprentice system?  Would we develop 'union programming standards'?
>
> I think that having a union is a step in the right direction, but it is a
> long road to get there.  Maybe we can have a poll to see how many people
> would support it.
>
> In the mean time I would suggest that everyone have access to a lawyer or
> a
> lawyer system (pre-paid legal).  This way you can have a lawyer draft a
> letter when you aren't paid, and you can have your 'basic' contract
> reviewed.
>
> Regarding contracts.  Does anyone have any contract examples that have
> worked well that they would share with the rest of us?
>
> William
>
> --
> William E. Seiter
>
> Have you ever read a book that changed your life?
> Go to: www.winninginthemargins.com
> Enter passkey: goldengrove
>
> Web Developer / ColdFusion Programmer
> http://William.Seiter.com
> -Original Message-
> From: Vincent Cannady [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2008 10:10 AM
> To: CF-Jobs-Talk
> Subject: Re: Dead Beat Clients.
>
> Hi Matt,
>
> From what I read you have never had many contracts but I can vouch for
> what
> Angry Housewife says that I too have been paid when I go client locations
> to
> work but when I am up at three o clock in the morning doing work and
> submit
> for those hours I never seem to get paid even if I email or IM the client
> at
> that time. I have worked in the Contracts Department of companies like
> Sprint and Cingular and I have seen them get burned and have to resort to
> Suing to get their money back so again I have to disagree with you about
> negotiations. A Contract is a contract; here are the three ways you can
> break a contract per the UCC -Uniform Code of Commerce
>
> #1 Incapacity- Mentally Unfit to make a contract
> #2 Age - To young to be making a contract
> #3 Breach of contract - One party or another did not complete part of
> contract
>
> So in our case it is almost always number three either the developer did
> not
> do ANYWORK (or they signed a completed project contract)
> or the Client Breached the Contract by not paying
>
> Here is the one I find funny- A Client that breeches the contract usually
> wants to hold you (the Consultant) to a NDA (Non Disclosure Agreement)
> meaning no contact with his or her end client after they terminated your
> services even though they have not paid you.
>
> Ok. So Jeff has some experience with this so have I, I have worked for two
> different Law Enforcement Agencies, Two Different Court Houses in two
> different States, I have friends who are lawyers. I am an expert in
> Contract
> Law. And I always look up clients  on WWW.PACER.GOV (Federal DISTRICT
> Court
> Houses Case Party Index) yet I too get burned so UNLIKE you I do not
> consider getting burned me not KNOWING how to negotiate. I was my School
> Debate Champion and have won lawsuits again Fortune 500 Companies
> representing myself (pro se).
>
> The list she talks about is needed. She also has another point no one has
> picked up on, What about us HAVING A UNION. The all contracts would go
> thru
> the Union anynone not paying would be sued by the Union. Programmer would
> not need to come up with $2000 just to get back $2500. Instead they could
> pay 120 a year or $10 a Month to belong to a "National Technology Workers
> Union" that would have attorneys on staff would could deal with this mess,
>
> I think that until that day comes along we should have this list and if
> the
> Clients want a list of Bad Programmers they had better pay one of US to
> create IT!
>
>
> Just my $10,000!
>
> > On Feb 2, 2008 6:55 PM, angry housewife <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > I have watched my husband work very hard for three or four contracts
> > in the last six months where he has only been paid ten percent of his
> > total invoiced hours. My husband never signs a contract where the work
> > has to be completed before he is paid, yet every client of his who has
> > not paid uses this as an excuse not to pay because the work or project
> > is not completed.
> > >
> > > The only work my husband ever seems to get paid in full for is for
> > work done on-site.
> >
> > I'm sorry, but this really sounds like bad business not on the part
> > of
> > the client, but on your husband's part. If the same client did not
> > pay
> > several different contractors, they are probably at fault. If the
> >

Re: Dead Beat Clients.

[Matt Williams]

It is true that I do not have much contracting experience. And I am
probably naive about all the things that can go wrong. Because of this
and due to Isaac's comments, I will retract my comment that because a
contractor has had several non-paying clients that the contractor is
at fault.

On the other hand, I will uphold my belief that there is two sides
(maybe even more, if there are other middle-men or vendors at play) to
the story. I'm not saying that a list is necessarily a bad idea. What
I am saying, and what I would encourage every other developer to do,
is take that list with a grain of salt. Heh, if I was approached by a
client that I knew had the worst reputation on the dead-beat list, I
would probably ask them about it straight up. But I would not
immediately rule them out until I felt I had both (all) sides of the
story.

As for a union, who knows, maybe it is a good idea. It would take a
bit more dissatisfaction than the few on this list before it would
happen. I know there are a lot of developers that have been burned,
but are probably quite satisfied overall.

I also will uphold my belief that getting some help on contracts and
communication with clients is always a good idea. Just like always
trying to expand and improve your programming skill, even the
experienced contractors should keep learning how to better deal with
clients.

My humble opinions,

Matt Williams

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Re: Dead Beat Clients.

[Bryan Stevenson]

I will simply note 3 things:

1) I would never run such a list due to liability

2) Since 1995 I've only had 1 dead beat client.so perhaps it's not just
the clients??

3) Why are you hiding behind a temp Yahoo account and not giving your
name?  Surely this means you're ever bit as scared of liability as
everyone says you should be.

I feel for anyone that gets a raw deal from a client, so everyone should
protect themselves.  Paying upfront before code is released is great way
to avoid these issues.

Cheers

-  

Bryan Stevenson B.Comm.
VP & Director of E-Commerce Development
Electric Edge Systems Group Inc.
phone: 250.480.0642
fax: 250.480.1264
cell: 250.920.8830
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: www.electricedgesystems.com
 
Notice:
This message, including any attachments, is confidential and may contain
information that is privileged or exempt from disclosure. It is intended
only for the person to whom it is addressed unless expressly authorized
otherwise by the sender. If you are not an authorized recipient, please
notify the sender immediately and permanently destroy all copies of this
message and attachments.




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RE: Dead Beat Clients.

[William Seiter]

I agree that having a union would be good for working with dead beat clients
as well as with obtaining good contracts, but a union should go further.  To
a client, a union has become the essence of 'good training'.  Would we have
an apprentice system?  Would we develop 'union programming standards'?

I think that having a union is a step in the right direction, but it is a
long road to get there.  Maybe we can have a poll to see how many people
would support it.

In the mean time I would suggest that everyone have access to a lawyer or a
lawyer system (pre-paid legal).  This way you can have a lawyer draft a
letter when you aren't paid, and you can have your 'basic' contract
reviewed.

Regarding contracts.  Does anyone have any contract examples that have
worked well that they would share with the rest of us?

William

-- 
William E. Seiter
 
Have you ever read a book that changed your life?
Go to: www.winninginthemargins.com
Enter passkey: goldengrove
 
Web Developer / ColdFusion Programmer
http://William.Seiter.com
-Original Message-
From: Vincent Cannady [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Sunday, February 03, 2008 10:10 AM
To: CF-Jobs-Talk
Subject: Re: Dead Beat Clients.

Hi Matt, 

>From what I read you have never had many contracts but I can vouch for what
Angry Housewife says that I too have been paid when I go client locations to
work but when I am up at three o clock in the morning doing work and submit
for those hours I never seem to get paid even if I email or IM the client at
that time. I have worked in the Contracts Department of companies like
Sprint and Cingular and I have seen them get burned and have to resort to
Suing to get their money back so again I have to disagree with you about
negotiations. A Contract is a contract; here are the three ways you can
break a contract per the UCC -Uniform Code of Commerce

#1 Incapacity- Mentally Unfit to make a contract
#2 Age - To young to be making a contract
#3 Breach of contract - One party or another did not complete part of
contract

So in our case it is almost always number three either the developer did not
do ANYWORK (or they signed a completed project contract)
or the Client Breached the Contract by not paying

Here is the one I find funny- A Client that breeches the contract usually
wants to hold you (the Consultant) to a NDA (Non Disclosure Agreement)
meaning no contact with his or her end client after they terminated your
services even though they have not paid you.

Ok. So Jeff has some experience with this so have I, I have worked for two
different Law Enforcement Agencies, Two Different Court Houses in two
different States, I have friends who are lawyers. I am an expert in Contract
Law. And I always look up clients  on WWW.PACER.GOV (Federal DISTRICT Court
Houses Case Party Index) yet I too get burned so UNLIKE you I do not
consider getting burned me not KNOWING how to negotiate. I was my School
Debate Champion and have won lawsuits again Fortune 500 Companies
representing myself (pro se). 

The list she talks about is needed. She also has another point no one has
picked up on, What about us HAVING A UNION. The all contracts would go thru
the Union anynone not paying would be sued by the Union. Programmer would
not need to come up with $2000 just to get back $2500. Instead they could
pay 120 a year or $10 a Month to belong to a "National Technology Workers
Union" that would have attorneys on staff would could deal with this mess,

I think that until that day comes along we should have this list and if the
Clients want a list of Bad Programmers they had better pay one of US to
create IT!


Just my $10,000!

> On Feb 2, 2008 6:55 PM, angry housewife <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I have watched my husband work very hard for three or four contracts 
> in the last six months where he has only been paid ten percent of his 
> total invoiced hours. My husband never signs a contract where the work 
> has to be completed before he is paid, yet every client of his who has 
> not paid uses this as an excuse not to pay because the work or project 
> is not completed.
> >
> > The only work my husband ever seems to get paid in full for is for 
> work done on-site.
> 
> I'm sorry, but this really sounds like bad business not on the part 
> of
> the client, but on your husband's part. If the same client did not 
> pay
> several different contractors, they are probably at fault. If the 
> same
> contractor doesn't get paid by several different clients, he is
> probably at fault.
> 
> Yes there are deadbeat clients out there. Perhaps a list would be
> helpful. But maybe your husband doesn't need instead of a list of
> clients to avoid. Maybe he needs some training / help in drafting
> contracts and dealing with said dead-beat clients.
> 
> I've done very little on contract myself, but if I ever started, I
> would seek some help from someone more experienced first. Someone 
> like
> Jeff Houser on this list generally has the best advice and has
> ex

Re: Dead Beat Clients.

[s. isaac dealey]

> The list she talks about is needed. She also has another point no one
> has picked up on, What about us HAVING A UNION. The all contracts
> would go thru the Union anynone not paying would be sued by the Union.
> Programmer would not need to come up with $2000 just to get back
> $2500. Instead they could pay 120 a year or $10 a Month to belong to
> a "National Technology Workers Union" that would have attorneys on
> staff would could deal with this mess,

Discussions like this always make me a bit uneasy, partly because I tend
to be "the odd man out" in conversations in general. Which makes it
tough for me to throw my hat in the ring on really controversial
subjects. Putting aside the current laws on the subject, I would like to
comment about public opinion and people's perception.

The mention of a union for IT workers actually reminds me of things I've
read or heard about the creation of the Screen Actors Guild. Many of the
reasons IT professionals cite for feeling exploited are similar in theme
if not in scope to the reasons actors felt exploited prior to 1937 when
producers finally agreed to negotiate with SAG. But in order for them to
get to that point they had to start bitching in 1925, over a decade
before hand. And I say bitching as no disrespect to the actors -- it was
absolutely necessary that they "bitch", loud, often and public. 

It's not just on contract jobs either, but on full-time gigs. How many
companies demand more than 40hrs per week arbitrarily? I saw one company
in Texas that was ballzy enough to state 50+hr weeks in their job ad.
That's an extreme. How about keeping people on call and then insisting
that time spent working on call is not included in your 40hr week? How
many companies refuse to hire any kind of QA team in favor of using the
lack of QA as an excuse to make their programmers feel like shit for the
slightest mistake? What amounts to an excuse to make them feel like shit
for being human. Since they can be guaranteed that the programmers will
make mistakes, they can be guaranteed that they'll have their excuse for
berating them, so there's a constant steady stream of psychological abuse
from management and imo in many cases it's deliberate. 

There's mention in Alan Cooper's book the Inmates Are Running the Asylum
of one of the early and influential IT managers who admitted to a
strategy of deliberately underestimating deadlines at roughly 50% of the
anticipated timeline for the express purpose of riding his programmers
like a jockey so that he could perpetually whip them into a frenzy with
comments about how they were behind schedule. And this guy was very
influential in the early days. Anyone want to guess why so few companies
have realistic deadlines in the software industry today?

I'm convinced honestly that things would be much worse for us if it
weren't for the fact that basic labor laws have improved so much since
1933 when SAG was first formed. Were it not for the fact that there's a
limit to how much companies can get away with pushing the work hours
laws here, we would probably be faced with something much more like the
MMORPG sweat shops in China or the much more exploitive contracts of
movie houses prior to 1937. The fact that our situation is better than
theirs doesn't make our situation reasonable, it just makes it not as
bad. There is no viable justification for continued psychological abuse
and fiscal exploitation (which imo are pretty closely related). 

A large part of the reason we put up with it is because we're
conditioned to accept an unacceptable situation. Programmers given a
continued stream of psychological abuse from their managers over time
learn to believe that problems with the software are their fault, not
the fault of the company for refusing to hire QA. And then they start
flogging themselves on the company's behalf -- it just makes the
manager's "job" of abusing them that much easier. I've done it. I've
seen other programmers do it. 

It's a well known phenomenon that abused people learn to expect the
abuse and then to justify it themselves. It happens with battered women,
etc. And it happens to programmers pretty much daily. So by the time any
of us strays from the standard response of "get it off your chest in
private, get over it and move on", the rest of us who are still
compliant automatically perceive whatever they have to say as being
indicative that there's something wrong with the person who's
complaining about the abuse, rather than being able to consider that
there might actually be abuse going on. The abuse has effectively become
invisibile to the abused. 

So although a statement like "if several companies failed to pay you,
then that's got to be a problem with you" might seem rational, it only
seems that way. Without being intimately familiar with the specifics,
usually from the perspective of an impartial 3rd party, it's virtually
impossible to make that assessment with any veracity. It could be that a
person who charges 

Re: Dead Beat Clients.

[Vincent Cannady]

Hi Matt, 

>From what I read you have never had many contracts but I can vouch for what 
>Angry Housewife says that I too have been paid when I go client locations to 
>work but when I am up at three o clock in the morning doing work and submit 
>for those hours I never seem to get paid even if I email or IM the client at 
>that time. I have worked in the Contracts Department of companies like Sprint 
>and Cingular and I have seen them get burned and have to resort to Suing to 
>get their money back so again I have to disagree with you about negotiations. 
>A Contract is a contract; here are the three ways you can break a contract per 
>the UCC -Uniform Code of Commerce

#1 Incapacity- Mentally Unfit to make a contract
#2 Age - To young to be making a contract
#3 Breach of contract - One party or another did not complete part of contract

So in our case it is almost always number three either the developer did not do 
ANYWORK (or they signed a completed project contract)
or the Client Breached the Contract by not paying

Here is the one I find funny- A Client that breeches the contract usually wants 
to hold you (the Consultant) to a NDA (Non Disclosure Agreement) meaning no 
contact with his or her end client after they terminated your services even 
though they have not paid you.

Ok. So Jeff has some experience with this so have I, I have worked for two 
different Law Enforcement Agencies, Two Different Court Houses in two different 
States, I have friends who are lawyers. I am an expert in Contract Law. And I 
always look up clients  on WWW.PACER.GOV (Federal DISTRICT Court Houses Case 
Party Index) yet I too get burned so UNLIKE you I do not consider getting 
burned me not KNOWING how to negotiate. I was my School Debate Champion and 
have won lawsuits again Fortune 500 Companies representing myself (pro se). 

The list she talks about is needed. She also has another point no one has 
picked up on, What about us HAVING A UNION. The all contracts would go thru the 
Union anynone not paying would be sued by the Union. Programmer would not need 
to come up with $2000 just to get back $2500. Instead they could pay 120 a year 
or $10 a Month to belong to a "National Technology Workers Union" that would 
have attorneys on staff would could deal with this mess,

I think that until that day comes along we should have this list and if the 
Clients want a list of Bad Programmers they had better pay one of US to create 
IT!


Just my $10,000!

> On Feb 2, 2008 6:55 PM, angry housewife <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I have watched my husband work very hard for three or four contracts 
> in the last six months where he has only been paid ten percent of his 
> total invoiced hours. My husband never signs a contract where the work 
> has to be completed before he is paid, yet every client of his who has 
> not paid uses this as an excuse not to pay because the work or project 
> is not completed.
> >
> > The only work my husband ever seems to get paid in full for is for 
> work done on-site.
> 
> I'm sorry, but this really sounds like bad business not on the part 
> of
> the client, but on your husband's part. If the same client did not 
> pay
> several different contractors, they are probably at fault. If the 
> same
> contractor doesn't get paid by several different clients, he is
> probably at fault.
> 
> Yes there are deadbeat clients out there. Perhaps a list would be
> helpful. But maybe your husband doesn't need instead of a list of
> clients to avoid. Maybe he needs some training / help in drafting
> contracts and dealing with said dead-beat clients.
> 
> I've done very little on contract myself, but if I ever started, I
> would seek some help from someone more experienced first. Someone 
> like
> Jeff Houser on this list generally has the best advice and has
> experience with clients of all types. He has been burned, but has not
> come here bitching and moaning and wanting to name names. He figures
> out what went wrong and tries to fix it for future clients. Your
> husband (and yourself) would do well to do the same. And / Or hire
> someone to train / help you learn how to deal with the past problems.
> 
> If such a deadbeat list were to exist, I may look at it as a 
> reference
> to "beware" of. But I'm not likely to accept it as gospel that the
> client will not pay. I would have to question the contractor who put
> the name there in the first place. Did they really deliver what the
> client asked for? What kind of communication did he have with the
> client? Etcetera, etcetera. I know that there are 2 sides to every
> story. Simply putting a client name on a list is very one-sided.
> 
> Just my 2 cents.
> 
> -- 
> Matt Williams
> "It's the question that drives us.
" 

~|
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date
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Archive: 
htt

Re: Dead Beat Clients.

[Matt Williams]

On Feb 2, 2008 6:55 PM, angry housewife <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I have watched my husband work very hard for three or four contracts in the 
> last six months where he has only been paid ten percent of his total invoiced 
> hours. My husband never signs a contract where the work has to be completed 
> before he is paid, yet every client of his who has not paid uses this as an 
> excuse not to pay because the work or project is not completed.
>
> The only work my husband ever seems to get paid in full for is for work done 
> on-site.

I'm sorry, but this really sounds like bad business not on the part of
the client, but on your husband's part. If the same client did not pay
several different contractors, they are probably at fault. If the same
contractor doesn't get paid by several different clients, he is
probably at fault.

Yes there are deadbeat clients out there. Perhaps a list would be
helpful. But maybe your husband doesn't need instead of a list of
clients to avoid. Maybe he needs some training / help in drafting
contracts and dealing with said dead-beat clients.

I've done very little on contract myself, but if I ever started, I
would seek some help from someone more experienced first. Someone like
Jeff Houser on this list generally has the best advice and has
experience with clients of all types. He has been burned, but has not
come here bitching and moaning and wanting to name names. He figures
out what went wrong and tries to fix it for future clients. Your
husband (and yourself) would do well to do the same. And / Or hire
someone to train / help you learn how to deal with the past problems.

If such a deadbeat list were to exist, I may look at it as a reference
to "beware" of. But I'm not likely to accept it as gospel that the
client will not pay. I would have to question the contractor who put
the name there in the first place. Did they really deliver what the
client asked for? What kind of communication did he have with the
client? Etcetera, etcetera. I know that there are 2 sides to every
story. Simply putting a client name on a list is very one-sided.

Just my 2 cents.

-- 
Matt Williams
"It's the question that drives us."

~|
Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to 
date
Get the Free Trial
http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;160198600;22374440;w

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