Re: recruiters with English as a second language
On Fri, 31 Mar 2006 14:08:15 -0800, Saman W Jayasekara [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Since Apu have 8 kids Apu is also revealed to be an illegal alien, btw, in the episode that was anti-prop-187 propaganda, as well as Shopkeeper Willie. ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:3004 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: recruiters with english as a second language
I know everyone here knows this, but I can't just leave this thread percolating without responding... I currently work in a culturally mixed environment, with a number of people from outside the US. Sometimes I have a bit of difficulty with their accents or wordings, as they do with the native english speakers, but nobody's shy about saying, what?, so we work it out. And make no mistake, all these folks are seriously sharp, very nice people. I'm happy to be working with each of them. Everybody's different from somebody. That doesn't make them any less valuable, or worthy of respect. Recruiters, on the other hand, regardless of where they're from, that's another story (;-0)... Dave Merrill ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2998 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: recruiters with english as a second language
Everybody's different from somebody. That doesn't make them any less valuable, or worthy of respect. I just want to clarify that, I don't think badly of these recruiters as people. It's frustrating for me because of the context in which the language barrier is presented. A language barrier is always frustrating; nobody likes to have a misunderstanding, even when both people speak a common language fluently. So when you notice a sudden and dramatic increase in the likelyhood for misunderstanding during a conversation, it raises an obvious concern about the possibility for miscommunication. In trivial conversations about movies or sports, the concern is trivial; in non-trivial conversations about pay-rates and hours worked, the concern is non-trivial. In a conversation with a recruiter there are additional factors which amplify this concern, such as the fact that a recruiter is someone whom you have usually not previously met and therefore have had no opportunity to acclimatize yourself to their individual accent, mannerisms or word selection. You're also speaking to someone who has a vested interest in placing you with a job (for their commission) and who will most likely not speak to you after you are placed, which eliminates the vested interest another person such as an ongoing business partner would have in acclimating the relationship to improve communication in the future, and in all probability eliminates much if not all of the vested interest the recruiter has in your own personal well-being. Even recruiters who speak a common language fluently have been known to lie to job-seekers (by omission if nothing else) to preserve their interest in the commission when the job-seeker's interests would not be well served by the employer. The only condition which is likely to change their interest in the outcome is an ongoing relationship with a larger company which hires many of its recruits through their agency, but you can't count on that sort of relationship in more than at most half of the recruiters you talk with. Further the hiring process is short and often rushed, and even when all parties are genuinely interested in the best possible fit, the simple lack of experience with one another is another source of increasingly likely miscommunication. With a single company you're not likely to spend more than 3 hours or so in interview prior to being hired, compared to the 40 hrs of exposure you'll have to that company in your first week of employment, so by the time you're hired, you are really likely to know very little about the company, and of course both the job-seeker and the employer are liable to massage their own outward appearances (possibly stretching the truth or lying by omission -- we try to keep overtime to a minimum here minimum=5hrs per week) because each is courting the other to serve their own interests. The end result is that I'm already a little anxious about choosing the right job because I know that there's already an increased likelyhood for miscommunication during the interview process and because myself, the employer and the recruiter all have different and frequently non-mutual interests in the outcome. So when I say that I don't like talking with recruiters who have a poor grasp of our common language (English) or who speak with such thick accents that it's difficult for me to understand them, I'm concerned about my own personal well-being; I will work the job months or years into the future, the recruiter will not. To respond to the previous comment about English being the sword which is used to divide people, my aversion to this situation has absolutely bupkiss, zero, zilch, nada, NOTHING to do with my not wanting to be in contact with their tribe. In a social context, I'll immerse myself in nearly any tribe (barring violence which is why I exclude Snoop Dog's tribe), and given an opportunity I'll learn their language. In school I learned some french and a little less spanish. I would GLADLY interview in French for a job in Canada, France or Monaco if I honestly felt fluent in my grasp of that language. s. isaac dealey 434.293.6201 new epoch : isn't it time for a change? add features without fixtures with the onTap open source framework http://www.fusiontap.com http://coldfusion.sys-con.com/author/4806Dealey.htm ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2999 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: recruiters with english as a second language
I totally agree with Isaac. Forget about English. Coldfusion is better. About Recruiters, let me copy from Dave's email. That explains lot of things. // Recruiters, on the other hand, regardless of where they're from, that's another story (;-0)... This is very good discussion for recruiters who want to improve PR skills. Sam -Original Message- From: S. Isaac Dealey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, April 02, 2006 10:52 PM To: CF-Jobs-Talk Subject: RE: recruiters with english as a second language Everybody's different from somebody. That doesn't make them any less valuable, or worthy of respect. I just want to clarify that, I don't think badly of these recruiters as people. It's frustrating for me because of the context in which the language barrier is presented. A language barrier is always frustrating; nobody likes to have a misunderstanding, even when both people speak a common language fluently. So when you notice a sudden and dramatic increase in the likelyhood for misunderstanding during a conversation, it raises an obvious concern about the possibility for miscommunication. In trivial conversations about movies or sports, the concern is trivial; in non-trivial conversations about pay-rates and hours worked, the concern is non-trivial. In a conversation with a recruiter there are additional factors which amplify this concern, such as the fact that a recruiter is someone whom you have usually not previously met and therefore have had no opportunity to acclimatize yourself to their individual accent, mannerisms or word selection. You're also speaking to someone who has a vested interest in placing you with a job (for their commission) and who will most likely not speak to you after you are placed, which eliminates the vested interest another person such as an ongoing business partner would have in acclimating the relationship to improve communication in the future, and in all probability eliminates much if not all of the vested interest the recruiter has in your own personal well-being. Even recruiters who speak a common language fluently have been known to lie to job-seekers (by omission if nothing else) to preserve their interest in the commission when the job-seeker's interests would not be well served by the employer. The only condition which is likely to change their interest in the outcome is an ongoing relationship with a larger company which hires many of its recruits through their agency, but you can't count on that sort of relationship in more than at most half of the recruiters you talk with. Further the hiring process is short and often rushed, and even when all parties are genuinely interested in the best possible fit, the simple lack of experience with one another is another source of increasingly likely miscommunication. With a single company you're not likely to spend more than 3 hours or so in interview prior to being hired, compared to the 40 hrs of exposure you'll have to that company in your first week of employment, so by the time you're hired, you are really likely to know very little about the company, and of course both the job-seeker and the employer are liable to massage their own outward appearances (possibly stretching the truth or lying by omission -- we try to keep overtime to a minimum here minimum=5hrs per week) because each is courting the other to serve their own interests. The end result is that I'm already a little anxious about choosing the right job because I know that there's already an increased likelyhood for miscommunication during the interview process and because myself, the employer and the recruiter all have different and frequently non-mutual interests in the outcome. So when I say that I don't like talking with recruiters who have a poor grasp of our common language (English) or who speak with such thick accents that it's difficult for me to understand them, I'm concerned about my own personal well-being; I will work the job months or years into the future, the recruiter will not. To respond to the previous comment about English being the sword which is used to divide people, my aversion to this situation has absolutely bupkiss, zero, zilch, nada, NOTHING to do with my not wanting to be in contact with their tribe. In a social context, I'll immerse myself in nearly any tribe (barring violence which is why I exclude Snoop Dog's tribe), and given an opportunity I'll learn their language. In school I learned some french and a little less spanish. I would GLADLY interview in French for a job in Canada, France or Monaco if I honestly felt fluent in my grasp of that language. s. isaac dealey 434.293.6201 new epoch : isn't it time for a change? add features without fixtures with the onTap open source framework http://www.fusiontap.com http://coldfusion.sys-con.com/author/4806Dealey.htm ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:3000
Re: recruiters with english as a second language
Lest my earlier response be judged in any way racial, I need to follow up. My tendancy towards ignoring recruiters, whether native English speakers or not, comes from my experiences with recruiters in general. As a whole, I find recruiters to be somewhere between the tax man and used car salesman on the people I like dealing with scale. Without fail, every recruiter that I have dealt with is more than happy to be your best friend when they think they can use you, but as soon as a client has passed on you for one reason or another, getting them to respond to a phone call or an email is like pulling teeth from a chicken. I had a recruiter pursuing me aggressively for a position a couple of years ago to fill a design manager position at one of their clients. For whatever reason, they passed on me. I never learned the reason because the several emails and phone calls that I made to the recruiter were never returned. About three months ago, I was contacted by the same recruiter, who was hot and bothered to get me in to interview for a position that I was pretty uninterested in. However, I remembered this gentleman and was pretty point blank about asking him why I should deal with him when he had completely ignored me a couple of years ago. So, I guess my whole attitude towards recruiters is pretty bad, but IMO they earned it. I understand that they deal with a large number of people as part of their job, but having the decency to provide some feedback to their potential job recipients is apparently too much to ask. Pete ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:3001 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: recruiters with English as a second language
On 4/1/06, Saman W Jayasekara [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Guys, [snip] Since Apu have 8 kids who most probably will be native speakers (because they have to survive in the school with Nelson) what native English you would like them to speak? Snoop Dog's Native English or Jeff Foxworthy's Native English? The Queen's thanks. -- CFAJAX docs and other useful articles: http://jr-holmes.coldfusionjournal.com/ ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2996 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: recruiters with english as a second language
Same here, was amazed the first few times it happened that recruiting had been outsourced like that. I tried to nicely tell the first couple I was not interested but after rewording that statement a few times without them understanding what I was saying I finally just gave up. Probably does not help that I generally have a low opinion of recruiters to begin with. On 3/30/06, Pete Ruckelshaus [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've gotten a number of calls from recruiters that were pretty obviously outsourced Indian callcenter employees who were dialling for dollars. As a rule, I hang up on them as quickly as possible. I have also gotten emails that used less than native English, which I delete just as quickly. Sorry, but if they don't care enough to communicate properly and effectively, I don't care enough to respond. Pete On 3/30/06, S. Isaac Dealey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So... I hope I'm not offending anyone, but at what point do you simply not respond to a recruiter if there's an obvious language barrier? I'm just curious if anyone else has a rule of thumb they use, because I just got an email from a recruiter asking me to revert back positively ... with the resume and the rate, indicating that he's confused the definition of reply or possibly respond and revert. It seems like now more than any other time that I've looked for a job, the majority of the recruiters I talk to are some variety of (middle)eastern (I'm guessing mostly Indian, although of course I don't ask) with varying degrees of either accent or language barrier. I really don't want to come across as being insensitive, but some of these people (a good number of them actually) speak english over the phone so poorly that it takes several iterations of a word or phrase before I understand what they're trying to say, and it really makes me wonder how they've even been hired in a recruiting capacity by companies seeking english-speaking workers. My current job search seems to be nearing its end, so I'm not liable to need to worry about it for hopefully several years now, I'm just curious what other people's thoughts are on the subject. s. isaac dealey 434.293.6201 new epoch : isn't it time for a change? add features without fixtures with the onTap open source framework http://www.fusiontap.com http://coldfusion.sys-con.com/author/4806Dealey.htm ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2987 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: recruiters with english as a second language
While I would agree about the communication barrier - Just wanted to point out FYI - India is not in the middle east... On 3/31/06, S. Isaac Dealey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Despite various websites' preference settings (Career Builder and DICE come to mind), I STILL get emails from recruiters, usually with middle-eastern names, shopping for candidates for jobs I'm simply not qualified for. I hate that. I used to get that pretty frequently with recruiters seeing that my resume had some minimal ASP experience on it (a year of ASP 2.0 that I never liked and haven't touched more than twice in the last 6 years) and would call me up saying they're looking for an experienced ASP _expert_. That was from predominantly American recruiters surprisingly enough. Over time java expert gradually crept in as well, and now I'm getting frequent contacts for C++ expert... I spent 3 days fixing a C++ COM object for scanning images from the web directly to a server about a year ago or so, and that's the sum total of official C++ experience I have (I taught myself from books about 9 yrs ago just before I started working with CF and hadn't been asked to work with C++ in all that time). If it gets much worse I'll have to stop posting my resume on the job sites and just rely on searching and submitting it myself. Although mercifully I shouldn't have to deal with this for much longer and then will get a nice long several year break from it. Maybe in 2010 or so when I'm ready for another change people will have figured out how wasteful and unproductive the current recruiting trends are. s. isaac dealey 434.293.6201 new epoch : isn't it time for a change? add features without fixtures with the onTap open source framework http://www.fusiontap.com http://coldfusion.sys-con.com/author/4806Dealey.htm ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2988 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: recruiters with english as a second language
By the way, I saw the () in your Middle East reference, but others weren't including it, so I think that was it was pointed out that India isn't in the Middle East. Yep, that's why I clarified. :) Thanks Levi, s. isaac dealey 434.293.6201 new epoch : isn't it time for a change? add features without fixtures with the onTap open source framework http://www.fusiontap.com http://coldfusion.sys-con.com/author/4806Dealey.htm ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2991 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: recruiters with english as a second language
I'm glad I'm not the only one. Not trying to be mean or anything but when he sounds like Apu from the Simpsons I really don't listen to what they are saying. So... I hope I'm not offending anyone, but at what point do you simply not respond to a recruiter if there's an obvious language barrier? I'm just curious if anyone else has a rule of thumb they use, because I just got an email from a recruiter asking me to revert back positively ... with the resume and the rate, indicating that he's confused the definition of reply or possibly respond and revert. It seems like now more than any other time that I've looked for a job, the majority of the recruiters I talk to are some variety of (middle)eastern (I'm guessing mostly Indian, although of course I don't ask) with varying degrees of either accent or language barrier. I really don't want to come across as being insensitive, but some of these people (a good number of them actually) speak english over the phone so poorly that it takes several iterations of a word or phrase before I understand what they're trying to say, and it really makes me wonder how they've even been hired in a recruiting capacity by companies seeking english-speaking workers. My current job search seems to be nearing its end, so I'm not liable to need to worry about it for hopefully several years now, I'm just curious what other people's thoughts are on the subject. s. isaac dealey 434.293.6201 new epoch : isn't it time for a change? add features without fixtures with the onTap open source framework http://www.fusiontap.com http://coldfusion.sys-con.com/author/4806Dealey.htm ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2992 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: recruiters with english as a second language
Glad to hear it happens to others. Not trying to be mean or anything but when they sound like Apu from the Simpsons I really don't listen to what they have to say and just say no thanks. ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2993 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: recruiters with English as a second language
Hi Guys, English is not my mother tongue. But I can't stop my self putting my two cents in to this since languages are one of my favorite subjects. If you guys (Native English speakers) thinks that is a problem you guys facing - that is wrong. This is an advantage for you. I'm not been a native English speaker but traveling all over the world bring me two types of problems when it come to English. 1. Some do not speak English at all - that is pure communication barrier. Hate that. 2. Some Native English speakers do not be comfortable enough with me even I imitate everything else belong to that tribe (dress code, dining habits, etc..) - That is pure cultural barrier. I experience this more with Americans - and less with Black Americans and middle class British. But I understand that and have no complains. Where I come from, people call English as 'the Sward'. Because the primary purpose of the sward is to eliminate others who do not have a shaper one. May be that is why some people choose not to involved in this sward fighting at all. (Koreans, Japanese, Russians, French, etc.) Anyway when you study about humans and languages you may notice primary purpose of language is not communication - but separate your tribe from others. We are trying to use one language as the global language first time in the human history. It is not a happy story how English become the global language. But having a global language is a wonderful thing. But still when ever we feel Apu is not belong to our tribe, our body feel uncomfortable unintentionally and make us hang up the phone faster. That is our primitive human instinct of keep away from other tribes. That is not wrong. I truly hope one day English will use just for communication purposes only. Even that bad English will exist giving native speakers clear advantage. Apu may never understand why we drive in the parkway and park in the driveway. That means More Business for You in the global economy - and less business for Apu. Cheer Up! (But keep the borders secure). Since Apu have 8 kids who most probably will be native speakers (because they have to survive in the school with Nelson) what native English you would like them to speak? Snoop Dog's Native English or Jeff Foxworthy's Native English? Take care Guy, Sam -Original Message- From: Scott Fairley [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 9:44 PM To: CF-Jobs-Talk Subject: Re: recruiters with english as a second language I'm glad I'm not the only one. Not trying to be mean or anything but when he sounds like Apu from the Simpsons I really don't listen to what they are saying. So... I hope I'm not offending anyone, but at what point do you simply not respond to a recruiter if there's an obvious language barrier? I'm just curious if anyone else has a rule of thumb they use, because I just got an email from a recruiter asking me to revert back positively ... with the resume and the rate, indicating that he's confused the definition of reply or possibly respond and revert. It seems like now more than any other time that I've looked for a job, the majority of the recruiters I talk to are some variety of (middle)eastern (I'm guessing mostly Indian, although of course I don't ask) with varying degrees of either accent or language barrier. I really don't want to come across as being insensitive, but some of these people (a good number of them actually) speak english over the phone so poorly that it takes several iterations of a word or phrase before I understand what they're trying to say, and it really makes me wonder how they've even been hired in a recruiting capacity by companies seeking english-speaking workers. My current job search seems to be nearing its end, so I'm not liable to need to worry about it for hopefully several years now, I'm just curious what other people's thoughts are on the subject. s. isaac dealey 434.293.6201 new epoch : isn't it time for a change? add features without fixtures with the onTap open source framework http://www.fusiontap.com http://coldfusion.sys-con.com/author/4806Dealey.htm ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2994 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: recruiters with english as a second language
Thanks Pete, it's good to know I'm not alone. :) I've gotten a number of calls from recruiters that were pretty obviously outsourced Indian callcenter employees who were dialling for dollars. As a rule, I hang up on them as quickly as possible. I have also gotten emails that used less than native English, which I delete just as quickly. Sorry, but if they don't care enough to communicate properly and effectively, I don't care enough to respond. Pete s. isaac dealey 434.293.6201 new epoch : isn't it time for a change? add features without fixtures with the onTap open source framework http://www.fusiontap.com http://coldfusion.sys-con.com/author/4806Dealey.htm ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2985 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: recruiters with english as a second language
Despite various websites' preference settings (Career Builder and DICE come to mind), I STILL get emails from recruiters, usually with middle-eastern names, shopping for candidates for jobs I'm simply not qualified for. I hate that. I used to get that pretty frequently with recruiters seeing that my resume had some minimal ASP experience on it (a year of ASP 2.0 that I never liked and haven't touched more than twice in the last 6 years) and would call me up saying they're looking for an experienced ASP _expert_. That was from predominantly American recruiters surprisingly enough. Over time java expert gradually crept in as well, and now I'm getting frequent contacts for C++ expert... I spent 3 days fixing a C++ COM object for scanning images from the web directly to a server about a year ago or so, and that's the sum total of official C++ experience I have (I taught myself from books about 9 yrs ago just before I started working with CF and hadn't been asked to work with C++ in all that time). If it gets much worse I'll have to stop posting my resume on the job sites and just rely on searching and submitting it myself. Although mercifully I shouldn't have to deal with this for much longer and then will get a nice long several year break from it. Maybe in 2010 or so when I'm ready for another change people will have figured out how wasteful and unproductive the current recruiting trends are. s. isaac dealey 434.293.6201 new epoch : isn't it time for a change? add features without fixtures with the onTap open source framework http://www.fusiontap.com http://coldfusion.sys-con.com/author/4806Dealey.htm ~| Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:11:2986 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/11 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:11 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.11 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
