RE: DreamWeaver UltraDev 4 and CF Studio
Actually, doing complex tables in Studio is a quick and easy process, if you know how to use Studio and have a clear picture in your mind of what you want the table to look like. Check out the table wizard in Studio. Any time I need to build a complex table I use it and it's never failed me. H. Howard Owens Internet Operations Coordinator www.insidevc.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] AIM: GoCatGo1956 > -Original Message- > From: Brook Davies [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 4:27 PM > To: CF-Talk > Subject: Re: DreamWeaver UltraDev 4 and CF Studio > > Jon, > > I personally don't agree that a WYSIWYG editor is a necessity for web > development. Not at all. In fact, I think it is a crutch for many > developers because they never learn a solid foundation and good HTML. > > Designing complex table layouts is easy if you've been practicing and know > > HTML like the back of your hand. I've never met a table that I could not > make my bitch. I hand code almost everything, and consequently have a > very > intimidate (no jokes please) relationship with the resulting code. > > Brook > > > At 07:05 PM 16/11/01 -0500, you wrote: > >I've used UD and Studio together since UD 1 came out and before that DW > and > >Studio. Personally designing complex table structures from scratch by > hand > >takes way too much time. That's what CF is all about, RAD... > >I've done some site designs in DW that would never have been possible by > >hand simply because of the time it would take to perfect a table > structure > >that was extremly complex. > > > >Hopefully after all of the people still using NS4 upgrade, we can finally > >totally get rid of tables alltogether and use css, but until then, > designing > >a site to look exactly like you want will require complex table design. > Take > >a look at msn or cnn's home page. I'll go out on a limb and say that hand > >coding either one of those site designs is impossible, and I can > guarantee > >that neither of them were done by hand for sure. > > > >Half of the time I dont even save a design in UD though, I just do the > >design then paste the code into Studio and start refining it. After > refining > >the design if I change my mind and need to change the table structure > >drastically, I'll just copy back into UD, click a button, then copy back. > > > >Unless you follow the Yahoo site design school of thought, a WYSIWYG > editor > >is a necessity imho. > > > >jon > >- Original Message - > >From: "Larry Juncker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >To: "CF-Talk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 5:39 PM > >Subject: RE: DreamWeaver UltraDev 4 and CF Studio > > > > > > > Thanks - That was kind of what I had come to the conclusion of, > Worthless > > > unless you totally use WYSIWYG > > > > > > I like to see what I am coding, so I guess I just stick with Studio. > > > > > > I guess I still don't see why they have the link to UD in Studio > either, > > > what purpose does that solve? > > > > > > > > ~~ Your ad could be here. Monies from ads go to support these lists and provide more resources for the community. http://www.fusionauthority.com/ads.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: DreamWeaver UltraDev 4 and CF Studio
I have been using DW since version 1, and before that I have been coding HTML by hand, and I still do (with Studio, which really could be considered a crutch since it helps you along the way with tag insight and all). Anyway, I have discovered UD, especially version 4 which I just bought to be very handy. Like the ASP developer and Interdev, Ultradev serves a good purpose. Although I can lay out tables by hand, what is the point when you have a good tool that pretty much does the work for you? And as far as layering goes, have fun doing it by hand as well. It can and is done, but I prefer to use UD for that. And the CF integration is great. I tried Netobjects Fusion and totally thought it was a waste of time and money (glad I did not buy it, some other poor schlep did and he just let me try it out). And as far as the link in Studio, I like it because I do not have to go to the task bar, click on UD, then browse to the folder that has the file I want to edit. Just click and it is there in seconds. As Ben Forta said some time ago in CFDJ, you have to pick the right web tool (CF, ASP, Java, PHP, etc... for the current project, so goes your editing tools. Use the right tool for the job. Why go to the icehouse to fill the icebox when you have electricity in your house and you can plug in a refrigerator. Why use Notepad just because it is free when there are great tools out there to use that can speed up development time? For just pure coding CF, studio is the way to go. For doing the more mundane stuff like page design, use UD or your preferred WYSIWYG tool (except for FrontPage). IMHO that is. -Original Message- From: Larry Juncker [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 4:39 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: DreamWeaver UltraDev 4 and CF Studio Thanks - That was kind of what I had come to the conclusion of, Worthless unless you totally use WYSIWYG I like to see what I am coding, so I guess I just stick with Studio. I guess I still don't see why they have the link to UD in Studio either, what purpose does that solve? Larry Juncker Senior Cold Fusion Developer Heartland Communications Group, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: BILLY CRAVENS [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 4:25 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: DreamWeaver UltraDev 4 and CF Studio Those capabilities don't exist. The "code" mode is really nothing more than Notepad with color coding. - Original Message - From: "Larry Juncker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "CF-Talk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 4:23 PM Subject: DreamWeaver UltraDev 4 and CF Studio > Question; > > Has anyone figured out how to do Tag completion in UltraDev4 like we can do > in CF Studio? > They want me to use UltraDev, but I truly am spoiled by the Tag Completion > feature of Studio. > > Any direction on this would be greatly appreciated. > > Larry Juncker > Senior Cold Fusion Developer > Heartland Communications Group, Inc. > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: DreamWeaver UltraDev 4 and CF Studio
Don't get me wrong I am a hand coder too...when it makes sense (which is most of the time). I guess it comes down to design style. Not being an artist, I do my site designs in html, then bring in art elements later, after I'm totally sure I like the structure. Having no images to lead me, I tend to radically change the structure midway through a site. I can not justify hand changing 20 td's into one td with a rowspan of 20 by hand when I have UD close by. I can do it in 10 seconds in UD, it doesn't even need to be thought about. Doing that one task by hand would be a waste of time and money. I totally agree about WYSIWYG being a crutch to new developers also. Believe me, working at a hosting company I have to deal with the army of Frontpage dweebs (nicest word I could think of.. ;-)) everyday. Designing and developing are two different things though, and there is no such thing as a good designer who doesn't have some kind of visual tool in my book. It's just plain stubbornness to insist on hand coding everything. Everyone has a different style though, and required is a bit of a strong word, but if I have an entire site to do and nothing but an idea to start with. It just makes sense to start in a visual editor. jon - Original Message - From: "Brook Davies" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "CF-Talk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 7:26 PM Subject: Re: DreamWeaver UltraDev 4 and CF Studio > Jon, > > I personally don't agree that a WYSIWYG editor is a necessity for web > development. Not at all. In fact, I think it is a crutch for many > developers because they never learn a solid foundation and good HTML. > > Designing complex table layouts is easy if you've been practicing and know > HTML like the back of your hand. I've never met a table that I could not > make my bitch. I hand code almost everything, and consequently have a very > intimidate (no jokes please) relationship with the resulting code. > > Brook > > > At 07:05 PM 16/11/01 -0500, you wrote: > >I've used UD and Studio together since UD 1 came out and before that DW and > >Studio. Personally designing complex table structures from scratch by hand > >takes way too much time. That's what CF is all about, RAD... > >I've done some site designs in DW that would never have been possible by > >hand simply because of the time it would take to perfect a table structure > >that was extremly complex. > > > >Hopefully after all of the people still using NS4 upgrade, we can finally > >totally get rid of tables alltogether and use css, but until then, designing > >a site to look exactly like you want will require complex table design. Take > >a look at msn or cnn's home page. I'll go out on a limb and say that hand > >coding either one of those site designs is impossible, and I can guarantee > >that neither of them were done by hand for sure. > > > >Half of the time I dont even save a design in UD though, I just do the > >design then paste the code into Studio and start refining it. After refining > >the design if I change my mind and need to change the table structure > >drastically, I'll just copy back into UD, click a button, then copy back. > > > >Unless you follow the Yahoo site design school of thought, a WYSIWYG editor > >is a necessity imho. > > ~~ Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: DreamWeaver UltraDev 4 and CF Studio
> I've used UD and Studio together since UD 1 came out and before > that DW and > Studio. Personally designing complex table structures from scratch by hand > takes way too much time. That's what CF is all about, RAD... > I've done some site designs in DW that would never have been possible by > hand simply because of the time it would take to perfect a table structure > that was extremly complex. But you don't need UD for this. You can do the same thing in DW2. In fact that's the only version of DW I use and its only around for the reason you mention. UD and DW are complimentary tools and I think the idea of UD replacing Studio borders on the ludicrous. ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: DreamWeaver UltraDev 4 and CF Studio
Jon, I personally don't agree that a WYSIWYG editor is a necessity for web development. Not at all. In fact, I think it is a crutch for many developers because they never learn a solid foundation and good HTML. Designing complex table layouts is easy if you've been practicing and know HTML like the back of your hand. I've never met a table that I could not make my bitch. I hand code almost everything, and consequently have a very intimidate (no jokes please) relationship with the resulting code. Brook At 07:05 PM 16/11/01 -0500, you wrote: >I've used UD and Studio together since UD 1 came out and before that DW and >Studio. Personally designing complex table structures from scratch by hand >takes way too much time. That's what CF is all about, RAD... >I've done some site designs in DW that would never have been possible by >hand simply because of the time it would take to perfect a table structure >that was extremly complex. > >Hopefully after all of the people still using NS4 upgrade, we can finally >totally get rid of tables alltogether and use css, but until then, designing >a site to look exactly like you want will require complex table design. Take >a look at msn or cnn's home page. I'll go out on a limb and say that hand >coding either one of those site designs is impossible, and I can guarantee >that neither of them were done by hand for sure. > >Half of the time I dont even save a design in UD though, I just do the >design then paste the code into Studio and start refining it. After refining >the design if I change my mind and need to change the table structure >drastically, I'll just copy back into UD, click a button, then copy back. > >Unless you follow the Yahoo site design school of thought, a WYSIWYG editor >is a necessity imho. > >jon >- Original Message - >From: "Larry Juncker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: "CF-Talk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 5:39 PM >Subject: RE: DreamWeaver UltraDev 4 and CF Studio > > > > Thanks - That was kind of what I had come to the conclusion of, Worthless > > unless you totally use WYSIWYG > > > > I like to see what I am coding, so I guess I just stick with Studio. > > > > I guess I still don't see why they have the link to UD in Studio either, > > what purpose does that solve? > > > > ~~ Your ad could be here. Monies from ads go to support these lists and provide more resources for the community. http://www.fusionauthority.com/ads.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: DreamWeaver UltraDev 4 and CF Studio
I've used UD and Studio together since UD 1 came out and before that DW and Studio. Personally designing complex table structures from scratch by hand takes way too much time. That's what CF is all about, RAD... I've done some site designs in DW that would never have been possible by hand simply because of the time it would take to perfect a table structure that was extremly complex. Hopefully after all of the people still using NS4 upgrade, we can finally totally get rid of tables alltogether and use css, but until then, designing a site to look exactly like you want will require complex table design. Take a look at msn or cnn's home page. I'll go out on a limb and say that hand coding either one of those site designs is impossible, and I can guarantee that neither of them were done by hand for sure. Half of the time I dont even save a design in UD though, I just do the design then paste the code into Studio and start refining it. After refining the design if I change my mind and need to change the table structure drastically, I'll just copy back into UD, click a button, then copy back. Unless you follow the Yahoo site design school of thought, a WYSIWYG editor is a necessity imho. jon - Original Message - From: "Larry Juncker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "CF-Talk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 5:39 PM Subject: RE: DreamWeaver UltraDev 4 and CF Studio > Thanks - That was kind of what I had come to the conclusion of, Worthless > unless you totally use WYSIWYG > > I like to see what I am coding, so I guess I just stick with Studio. > > I guess I still don't see why they have the link to UD in Studio either, > what purpose does that solve? > ~~ Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: DreamWeaver UltraDev 4 and CF Studio
Go to www.massimocorner.com for a set of ColdFusion objects for UltraDev that make it easier to work with, and also his Snippets extension to UltraDev, which allow you to work with snippets created in Homesite/CFStudio. If you use the two programs together you'll get the most for your money. UltraDev takes a little getting used to -- especially the floaty windows -- but you can do things in it that you can't do in CF Studio, such as applying rollover behaviors, javascript functions, adjusting table widths, inserting and optimizing images, turning complex code into point-and-click server behaviors, and doing complex recordset navigation easily. Having the button on Studio makes it easy to go back and forth. tom "Larry Juncker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message 001701c16eef$83873580$2354ead1@HEARTLAND">news:001701c16eef$83873580$2354ead1@HEARTLAND... > Thanks - That was kind of what I had come to the conclusion of, Worthless > unless you totally use WYSIWYG > > I like to see what I am coding, so I guess I just stick with Studio. > > I guess I still don't see why they have the link to UD in Studio either, > what purpose does that solve? ~~ Your ad could be here. Monies from ads go to support these lists and provide more resources for the community. http://www.fusionauthority.com/ads.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: DreamWeaver UltraDev 4 and CF Studio
Actually, UD/DW seems to be pretty good about allowing you to make modifications in a WYSIWYG without totally screwing up your code. I think it really varies by application and developer - sometimes your emphasis is tight, efficient code, sometimes it's on RAD. Each tool has its strong points. - Original Message - From: "Larry Juncker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "CF-Talk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 4:39 PM Subject: RE: DreamWeaver UltraDev 4 and CF Studio > Thanks - That was kind of what I had come to the conclusion of, Worthless > unless you totally use WYSIWYG > > I like to see what I am coding, so I guess I just stick with Studio. > > I guess I still don't see why they have the link to UD in Studio either, > what purpose does that solve? > > Larry Juncker > Senior Cold Fusion Developer > Heartland Communications Group, Inc. > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -Original Message- > From: BILLY CRAVENS [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 4:25 PM > To: CF-Talk > Subject: Re: DreamWeaver UltraDev 4 and CF Studio > > > Those capabilities don't exist. The "code" mode is really nothing more than > Notepad with color coding. > > - Original Message - > From: "Larry Juncker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "CF-Talk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 4:23 PM > Subject: DreamWeaver UltraDev 4 and CF Studio > > > > Question; > > > > Has anyone figured out how to do Tag completion in UltraDev4 like we can > do > > in CF Studio? > > They want me to use UltraDev, but I truly am spoiled by the Tag Completion > > feature of Studio. > > > > Any direction on this would be greatly appreciated. > > > > Larry Juncker > > Senior Cold Fusion Developer > > Heartland Communications Group, Inc. > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > ~~ Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: DreamWeaver UltraDev 4 and CF Studio
Thanks - That was kind of what I had come to the conclusion of, Worthless unless you totally use WYSIWYG I like to see what I am coding, so I guess I just stick with Studio. I guess I still don't see why they have the link to UD in Studio either, what purpose does that solve? Larry Juncker Senior Cold Fusion Developer Heartland Communications Group, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: BILLY CRAVENS [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 4:25 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: DreamWeaver UltraDev 4 and CF Studio Those capabilities don't exist. The "code" mode is really nothing more than Notepad with color coding. - Original Message - From: "Larry Juncker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "CF-Talk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 4:23 PM Subject: DreamWeaver UltraDev 4 and CF Studio > Question; > > Has anyone figured out how to do Tag completion in UltraDev4 like we can do > in CF Studio? > They want me to use UltraDev, but I truly am spoiled by the Tag Completion > feature of Studio. > > Any direction on this would be greatly appreciated. > > Larry Juncker > Senior Cold Fusion Developer > Heartland Communications Group, Inc. > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > ~~ Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: DreamWeaver UltraDev 4 and CF Studio
Those capabilities don't exist. The "code" mode is really nothing more than Notepad with color coding. - Original Message - From: "Larry Juncker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "CF-Talk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 4:23 PM Subject: DreamWeaver UltraDev 4 and CF Studio > Question; > > Has anyone figured out how to do Tag completion in UltraDev4 like we can do > in CF Studio? > They want me to use UltraDev, but I truly am spoiled by the Tag Completion > feature of Studio. > > Any direction on this would be greatly appreciated. > > Larry Juncker > Senior Cold Fusion Developer > Heartland Communications Group, Inc. > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > ~~ Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
DreamWeaver UltraDev 4 and CF Studio
Question; Has anyone figured out how to do Tag completion in UltraDev4 like we can do in CF Studio? They want me to use UltraDev, but I truly am spoiled by the Tag Completion feature of Studio. Any direction on this would be greatly appreciated. Larry Juncker Senior Cold Fusion Developer Heartland Communications Group, Inc. [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
