RE: Fetching a website?
I would like to know how to grab a entire website, download and save it to the harddisk. Replace all absolute paths into relative paths so that the site can be viewed offline. Cfexecute wget -- Damien McKenna - Web Developer - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014 #include stdjoke.h ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:214374 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Fetching a website?
On Wednesday 10 August 2005 16:58, housi mueller wrote: I would like to know how to grab a entire website, download and save it to the harddisk. Replace all absolute paths into relative paths so that the site can be viewed offline. cfexecute wget with the '-m' mirror option... ? -- Tom Chiverton Advanced ColdFusion Programmer ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:214376 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Fetching a website?
Start reading up on CFHTTP and Regular Expressions. CFHTTP will convert all links to fully-qualified links (if you set the appropriate attribute) and the regular expressions will find all links within the document. M!ke -Original Message- From: housi mueller [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 10:58 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Fetching a website? I would like to know how to grab a entire website, download and save it to the harddisk. Replace all absolute paths into relative paths so that the site can be viewed offline. I would like to write something similar like the program Httrack but in ColdFusion. So if someone knows of tutorials, scripts etc. Any help would be appreciated Thank you in advance... Helmut ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:214378 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Fetching a website?
I would like to know how to grab a entire website, download and save it to the harddisk. Replace all absolute paths into relative paths so that the site can be viewed offline. Cfexecute wget -- Damien McKenna - Web Developer - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Limu Company - http://www.thelimucompany.com/ - 407-804-1014 #include stdjoke.h I saw wget already. I know why to invent the wheel again, if it already exists... but I would like to write something like this on my one... ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:214386 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Fetching a website?
I saw wget already. I know why to invent the wheel again, if it already exists... but I would like to write something like this on my one... I submit that CF is a spectacularly poor choice for doing this, though. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:214389 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Fetching a website?
Meli Helmut wrote: I saw wget already. I know why to invent the wheel again, if it already exists... but I would like to write something like this on my one... Read the source and you know what it takes :) But I would recommend cURL over wget because the license is less restrictive. Jochem ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:214390 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Fetching a website?
I submit that CF is a spectacularly poor choice for doing this, though. Maybe CF is a poor choice but it should be possible... __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:214392 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Fetching a website?
Start reading up on CFHTTP and Regular Expressions. CFHTTP will convert all links to fully-qualified links (if you set the appropriate attribute) and the regular expressions will find all links within the document. M!ke I already made some tests with CFHTTP. But it needs more. Looping trough and parsing all the documents, download all the objects etc etc. I thought that maybe someone wrote already something similar in ColdFusion ... ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:214398 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Fetching a website?
Maybe CF is a poor choice but it should be possible... It is certainly possible. CF gives you all of the functionality you need - you simply need to write the code to use it. However, even if you do so, it will probably not perform suitably, since that's not the kind of thing that CF is designed to do well. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:214401 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Fetching a website?
Maybe CF is a poor choice but it should be possible... It is certainly possible. CF gives you all of the functionality you need - you simply need to write the code to use it. However, even if you do so, it will probably not perform suitably, since that's not the kind of thing that CF is designed to do well. Maybe it sounds strange but I will try to write the code in ColdFusion. I thought only that someone already has done or have seen a Code like this and could give me some tips, recommendations.. etc. ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:214414 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Fetching a website?
Actually, HTTrack works very well. I've used it a couple times. Any reason you don't just use it? -Original Message- From: housi mueller [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 8:58 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Fetching a website? I would like to know how to grab a entire website, download and save it to the harddisk. Replace all absolute paths into relative paths so that the site can be viewed offline. I would like to write something similar like the program Httrack but in ColdFusion. So if someone knows of tutorials, scripts etc. Any help would be appreciated Thank you in advance... Helmut ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:214419 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Fetching a website?
Yeah, I agree. Seems like the wrong tool for the job. Sure you can bang in nails with a screw driver, but should you? -Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 9:31 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Fetching a website? I saw wget already. I know why to invent the wheel again, if it already exists... but I would like to write something like this on my one... I submit that CF is a spectacularly poor choice for doing this, though. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:214421 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Fetching a website?
Actually, HTTrack works very well. I've used it a couple times. Any reason you don't just use it? I would like to know how to grab a entire website, download and save it to the harddisk. Replace all absolute paths into relative paths so that the site can be viewed offline. I would like to write something similar like the program Httrack but in ColdFusion. So if someone knows of tutorials, scripts etc. Any help would be appreciated Thank you in advance... I just wanted to write an application like this on my one. This will give me a good idea how to parse a website etc. There are some Spider written in PHP so I thought to write something like this in ColdFusion. Helmut ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:214422 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Fetching a website?
Meli Helmut wrote: I just wanted to write an application like this on my one. This will give me a good idea how to parse a website etc. There are some Spider written in PHP so I thought to write something like this in ColdFusion. Then maybe it is a good idea to take a look at the source of those PHP spiders. Jochem ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:214425 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Fetching a website?
As many have said, it can be done. But as many have also said, it's not something CF is going to be good at, so I doubt you are going to find anything already done in it. But if you want to do this; the major pieces you are going to need are cfhttp which will give you a page. Refind() will allow you to parse the returnd page to look for links of all types. I'm not sure what one does about fetching binary files such as images, but my first guess would be the base64 functions and cffile. You'll also be wanting the ability to fire off new requests to get linked pages found with the refind() functions. MX7 enterprise, if you have access to it, would be a big help with its asynchrous gateway functionality. Have Fun. -- Ian Skinner Web Programmer BloodSource www.BloodSource.org Sacramento, CA C code. C code run. Run code run. Please! - Cynthia Dunning Confidentiality Notice: This message including any attachments is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete any copies of this message. ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:214426 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Fetching a website?
I see, you just love a challenge! Hey, get it to work and submit it for a CFDJ article. -Original Message- From: Meli Helmut [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 11:03 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Fetching a website? I just wanted to write an application like this on my one. This will give me a good idea how to parse a website etc. There are some Spider written in PHP so I thought to write something like this in ColdFusion. ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:214427 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Fetching a website?
I saw wget already. I know why to invent the wheel again, if it already exists... but I would like to write something like this on my one... I submit that CF is a spectacularly poor choice for doing this, though. Could you also tell me please why CF is a poor choice to do this and which Script Language would you recommend?? ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:214428 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Fetching a website?
-Original Message- From: Meli Helmut [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 2:03 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Fetching a website? I just wanted to write an application like this on my one. This will give me a good idea how to parse a website etc. There are some Spider written in PHP so I thought to write something like this in ColdFusion. Dave is right that CF isn't even close to the best tool for the job... but for what it's worth this ColdFusion (CF MX 7) is the best ColdFusion ever for this job. ;^) I think it's a great exercise to try - you'll learn a lot and will end up with a nice tool that could solve a lot of problems even if it's not suitable for a full-fledged web scraper. (It's also something that you might consider open-sourcing for the community... hint, hint. ;^) ) As for performance I would highly recommend checking out the Asynch gateway - using this in CF MX 7 you can launch multiple threads at your target to collect all those little assets (images, scripts, styles, etc) instead of waiting for each to come in serial. That alone would make you app several orders of magnitude faster. Jim Davis ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:214429 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Fetching a website?
I have used WebCopier to do what you are asking for. I think it is a great shareware program. -Mike Chabot On 8/10/05, housi mueller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I would like to know how to grab a entire website, download and save it to the harddisk. Replace all absolute paths into relative paths so that the site can be viewed offline. I would like to write something similar like the program Httrack but in ColdFusion. So if someone knows of tutorials, scripts etc. Any help would be appreciated Thank you in advance... Helmut ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:214432 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Fetching a website?
Can't you just us the cfhttp file and path attributes to save the binary/included files directly to disk? On 8/10/05, Ian Skinner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As many have said, it can be done. But as many have also said, it's not something CF is going to be good at, so I doubt you are going to find anything already done in it. But if you want to do this; the major pieces you are going to need are cfhttp which will give you a page. Refind() will allow you to parse the returnd page to look for links of all types. I'm not sure what one does about fetching binary files such as images, but my first guess would be the base64 functions and cffile. You'll also be wanting the ability to fire off new requests to get linked pages found with the refind() functions. MX7 enterprise, if you have access to it, would be a big help with its asynchrous gateway functionality. ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:214433 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Fetching a website?
Can't you just us the cfhttp file and path attributes to save the binary/included files directly to disk? I don't know. I have never, ever tried to get a binary file from another system using http. My gut says it's probably possible; my head has no idea how. It would be interesting to know, if anybody has time to experiment (or has already done so). -- Ian Skinner Web Programmer BloodSource www.BloodSource.org Sacramento, CA C code. C code run. Run code run. Please! - Cynthia Dunning Confidentiality Notice: This message including any attachments is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete any copies of this message. ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:214439 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Fetching a website?
Dave is right that CF isn't even close to the best tool for the job... but for what it's worth this ColdFusion (CF MX 7) is the best ColdFusion ever for this job. ;^) I think it's a great exercise to try - you'll learn a lot and will end up with a nice tool that could solve a lot of problems even if it's not suitable for a full-fledged web scraper. (It's also something that you might consider open-sourcing for the community... hint, hint. ;^) ) As for performance I would highly recommend checking out the Asynch gateway - using this in CF MX 7 you can launch multiple threads at your target to collect all those little assets (images, scripts, styles, etc) instead of waiting for each to come in serial. That alone would make you app several orders of magnitude faster. Jim Davis Thank you for support me. I will consider your tips and even to open-source the project.. =:0) ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:214438 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Fetching a website?
That's one thing the stand alone apps can do, is allow you to set how many threads you want to use to pull down the site, rather than one at a time. For a large site, it can mean minutes vs. hours. -Original Message- From: Jim Davis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 11:16 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Fetching a website? As for performance I would highly recommend checking out the Asynch gateway - using this in CF MX 7 you can launch multiple threads at your target to collect all those little assets (images, scripts, styles, etc) instead of waiting for each to come in serial. That alone would make you app several orders of magnitude faster. Jim Davis ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:214440 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Fetching a website?
I see, you just love a challenge! Hey, get it to work and submit it for a CFDJ article. When I get it to work I will definitely publish the project... ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:214442 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Fetching a website?
That's one thing the stand alone apps can do, is allow you to set how many threads you want to use to pull down the site, rather than one at a time. For a large site, it can mean minutes vs. hours. -Original Message- From: Jim Davis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 11:16 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Fetching a website? As for performance I would highly recommend checking out the Asynch gateway - using this in CF MX 7 you can launch multiple threads at your target to collect all those little assets (images, scripts, styles, etc) instead of waiting for each to come in serial. That alone would make you app several orders of magnitude faster. Jim Davis ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:214443 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Fetching a website?
I should have stated that, rather than asking. You can just use the cfhttp file and path attributes to save a binary/include file directly to disk. cfhttp url=http://www.lawyersweeklyusa.com/images/lwlogo.gif; path=C:\ file=image.gif/cfhttp Works like a charm. Lovely for dling PDFs from state and federal court sites. On 8/10/05, Ian Skinner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Can't you just us the cfhttp file and path attributes to save the binary/included files directly to disk? I don't know. I have never, ever tried to get a binary file from another system using http. My gut says it's probably possible; my head has no idea how. It would be interesting to know, if anybody has time to experiment (or has already done so). ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:214445 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Fetching a website?
cfhttp url=http://www.lawyersweeklyusa.com/images/lwlogo.gif; path=C:\ file=image.gif/cfhttp Works like a charm. Lovely for dling PDFs from state and federal court sites. Cool, I will file that to the back of my head for the future when I may need to do this. Just one of those things I've never needed to do in my 8 year CF career. -- Ian Skinner Web Programmer BloodSource www.BloodSource.org Sacramento, CA C code. C code run. Run code run. Please! - Cynthia Dunning Confidentiality Notice: This message including any attachments is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender and delete any copies of this message. ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:214446 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Fetching a website?
-Original Message- From: Meli Helmut [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 2:16 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Fetching a website? I saw wget already. I know why to invent the wheel again, if it already exists... but I would like to write something like this on my one... I submit that CF is a spectacularly poor choice for doing this, though. Could you also tell me please why CF is a poor choice to do this and which Script Language would you recommend?? The problem isn't one of capability, it's one of performance. The main problem is that plain CF is a serialized, procedural language - you can only do one thing at a time. An app like the one you describe, to be fast, really needs to have good control over threading and process management (when a single web page might require several dozen HTTP requests doing them in serial just kills an apps performance). Using the ASynch gateway you can launch multiple processes at the same time helps immensely, but each of these requests is a full request in CF - all of the overhead related to any CF request is there. A more atomic language (like C or Java) can launch threads in a very efficient way that allows you to get your specific job done with as little overhead as possible. In general you're looking at a well written CF application being orders of magnitude slower than a well written Java or C application. (Although, of course, a great CF app can still beat a crappy Java or C application.) As for scripting languages... none of them are perfectly suited this kind of highly concurrent task. Script languages are optimized for use, not for performance generally. But you COULD build it in a lot of languages. JavaScript or VBScript (leveraging COM objects in a Windows Scripting Host or HTA Container) could do it. PERL may be the best choice but you'd really need to add on some of the more esoteric extensions to get the request performance up. PERL is very good at parsing text, but it's not the parsing so much as the HTTP traffic that worries me. So PERL may not be significantly faster than CF on such a job. In the right container (something that wasn't security limited to a host site for example) pretty much any scripting language with the ability to do HTTP and string manipulation could do it. Python and TCL come to mind. Heck, you COULD do this in Lingo if you wanted. ;^) Jim Davis ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:214448 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Fetching a website?
Why not just write a simple java app that could be perhaps called from cf? I've been usually switching to java and writing some simple threaded classes when I ran into these kinds of projects... -Original Message- From: Jim Davis [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 3:05 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Fetching a website? -Original Message- From: Meli Helmut [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 2:16 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Fetching a website? I saw wget already. I know why to invent the wheel again, if it already exists... but I would like to write something like this on my one... I submit that CF is a spectacularly poor choice for doing this, though. Could you also tell me please why CF is a poor choice to do this and which Script Language would you recommend?? The problem isn't one of capability, it's one of performance. The main problem is that plain CF is a serialized, procedural language - you can only do one thing at a time. An app like the one you describe, to be fast, really needs to have good control over threading and process management (when a single web page might require several dozen HTTP requests doing them in serial just kills an apps performance). Using the ASynch gateway you can launch multiple processes at the same time helps immensely, but each of these requests is a full request in CF - all of the overhead related to any CF request is there. A more atomic language (like C or Java) can launch threads in a very efficient way that allows you to get your specific job done with as little overhead as possible. In general you're looking at a well written CF application being orders of magnitude slower than a well written Java or C application. (Although, of course, a great CF app can still beat a crappy Java or C application.) As for scripting languages... none of them are perfectly suited this kind of highly concurrent task. Script languages are optimized for use, not for performance generally. But you COULD build it in a lot of languages. JavaScript or VBScript (leveraging COM objects in a Windows Scripting Host or HTA Container) could do it. PERL may be the best choice but you'd really need to add on some of the more esoteric extensions to get the request performance up. PERL is very good at parsing text, but it's not the parsing so much as the HTTP traffic that worries me. So PERL may not be significantly faster than CF on such a job. In the right container (something that wasn't security limited to a host site for example) pretty much any scripting language with the ability to do HTTP and string manipulation could do it. Python and TCL come to mind. Heck, you COULD do this in Lingo if you wanted. ;^) Jim Davis ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:214449 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Fetching a website?
Thank you for the detailed explanation. Now I learned something new. Right now I am not concerned about performence so I will go one with CF. Thank you Helmut Jim Davis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I saw wget already. I know why to invent the wheel again, if it already exists... but I would like to write something like this on my one... I submit that CF is a spectacularly poor choice for doing this, though. Could you also tell me please why CF is a poor choice to do this and which Script Language would you recommend?? The problem isn't one of capability, it's one of performance. The main problem is that plain CF is a serialized, procedural language - you can only do one thing at a time. An app like the one you describe, to be fast, really needs to have good control over threading and process management (when a single web page might require several dozen HTTP requests doing them in serial just kills an apps performance). Using the ASynch gateway you can launch multiple processes at the same time helps immensely, but each of these requests is a full request in CF - all of the overhead related to any CF request is there. A more atomic language (like C or Java) can launch threads in a very efficient way that allows you to get your specific job done with as little overhead as possible. In general you're looking at a well written CF application being orders of magnitude slower than a well written Java or C application. (Although, of course, a great CF app can still beat a crappy Java or C application.) As for scripting languages... none of them are perfectly suited this kind of highly concurrent task. Script languages are optimized for use, not for performance generally. But you COULD build it in a lot of languages. JavaScript or VBScript (leveraging COM objects in a Windows Scripting Host or HTA Container) could do it. PERL may be the best choice but you'd really need to add on some of the more esoteric extensions to get the request performance up. PERL is very good at parsing text, but it's not the parsing so much as the HTTP traffic that worries me. So PERL may not be significantly faster than CF on such a job. In the right container (something that wasn't security limited to a host site for example) pretty much any scripting language with the ability to do HTTP and string manipulation could do it. Python and TCL come to mind. Heck, you COULD do this in Lingo if you wanted. ;^) Jim Davis __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ~| Discover CFTicket - The leading ColdFusion Help Desk and Trouble Ticket application http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=48 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:214451 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Fetching a website?
At the moment I do have only basic knowledge about java. It would be not sufficient to write threaded classes. But I will work on it =:0) Russ [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why not just write a simple java app that could be perhaps called from cf? I've been usually switching to java and writing some simple threaded classes when I ran into these kinds of projects... - Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:214455 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Fetching a website?
-Original Message- From: Russ [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 3:32 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Fetching a website? Why not just write a simple java app that could be perhaps called from cf? I've been usually switching to java and writing some simple threaded classes when I ran into these kinds of projects... Well... I think the universal answer to that might be because I don't know Java. ;^) I couldn't do it - I don't know Java (although, dammit, I've really got to learn). I still maintain that a well-written CF app can still beat a crappily written pure Java app. But if you know both already then it's no question which should be used here. Jim Davis ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:214454 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
Re: Fetching a website?
housi mueller wrote: At the moment I do have only basic knowledge about java. It would be not sufficient to write threaded classes. But I will work on it =:0) An unthreaded java class will be magnitudes faster than a synchronous CF application because it can maintain the connection. CF will have to re-establish the connection on each request. Jochem ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:214464 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Fetching a website?
I still maintain that a well-written CF app can still beat a crappily written pure Java app. Absolutely. However, part of writing a well-written application is choosing the appropriate language for the task. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:214467 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Fetching a website?
-Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 4:47 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Fetching a website? I still maintain that a well-written CF app can still beat a crappily written pure Java app. Absolutely. However, part of writing a well-written application is choosing the appropriate language for the task. With one caveat: choose the most appropriate language that you can use well. This may mean hiring somebody to do it or learning something new before tackling it - but the best tool overall is not the best tool if you don't know how to use properly. Jim Davis ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:214469 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Fetching a website?
I still maintain that a well-written CF app can still beat a crappily written pure Java app. Absolutely. However, part of writing a well-written application is choosing the appropriate language for the task. With one caveat: choose the most appropriate language that you can use well. This may mean hiring somebody to do it or learning something new before tackling it - but the best tool overall is not the best tool if you don't know how to use properly. Well, this is getting a bit silly I think. If I know how to use a hammer, but I don't know how to use a wrench, you probably don't want me working on your plumbing. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:214491 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Fetching a website?
-Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 6:24 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Fetching a website? I still maintain that a well-written CF app can still beat a crappily written pure Java app. Absolutely. However, part of writing a well-written application is choosing the appropriate language for the task. With one caveat: choose the most appropriate language that you can use well. This may mean hiring somebody to do it or learning something new before tackling it - but the best tool overall is not the best tool if you don't know how to use properly. Well, this is getting a bit silly I think. If I know how to use a hammer, but I don't know how to use a wrench, you probably don't want me working on your plumbing. Exactly - but here's my point: We have these conversations a lot. Somebody asks how to do something and somebody (sometimes myself) gets all high-and-mighty that they should be using a better, more appropriate tool. But the world doesn't work that way. We have limitations. Sometimes we have to do the best we can with what we have and what we know in the time we have. I agree it's getting silly. But so is chastising people who want to complete tasks as best they can with what they got. This isn't a hammer and a wrench situation. This is a shovel and a backhoe situation: both can get the job done but one is vastly superior, but requires much more training and resources. Which is exactly why the best tool for the job may not be the right tool for the job. Jim Davis ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:214498 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Fetching a website?
We have these conversations a lot. Somebody asks how to do something and somebody (sometimes myself) gets all high-and- mighty that they should be using a better, more appropriate tool. But the world doesn't work that way. We have limitations. Sometimes we have to do the best we can with what we have and what we know in the time we have. I agree it's getting silly. But so is chastising people who want to complete tasks as best they can with what they got. Your representation is inaccurate. The original conversation went something like this: Q: I want to write a CF application which fetches a site, like HTTrack does. A: Use wget with CFEXECUTE. Q: But I want to do it in CF, just because I can. A: Well ok then, but it's going to suck compared to, well, almost anything else, because CF isn't good at that. Now, I don't have a problem with that - there's nothing wrong with doing something for fun, because you can. But it's certainly not the best approach to solving the problem. There's nothing high or mighty about that. So, I stand by my proposition that the original poster would probably be better off spending his time learning another language to do this than to do it with CF. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Logware (www.logware.us): a new and convenient web-based time tracking application. Start tracking and documenting hours spent on a project or with a client with Logware today. Try it for free with a 15 day trial account. http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=67 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:214501 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
RE: Fetching a website?
-Original Message- From: Dave Watts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 7:21 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Fetching a website? We have these conversations a lot. Somebody asks how to do something and somebody (sometimes myself) gets all high-and- mighty that they should be using a better, more appropriate tool. Q: I want to write a CF application which fetches a site, like HTTrack does. A: Use wget with CFEXECUTE. Q: But I want to do it in CF, just because I can. A: Well ok then, but it's going to suck compared to, well, almost anything else, because CF isn't good at that. I think the point was specifically that he wanted to do it in CF because he _counldn't_. ;^) He was purposefully setting himself a challenge to his skills - which I'm all for. He'll learn a lot. But in the end I agree with you much more than I disagree - it may be better for him to learn something else to do it - if it made sense (and in this case it doesn't seem to me). Jim Davis ~| Find out how CFTicket can increase your company's customer support efficiency by 100% http://www.houseoffusion.com/banners/view.cfm?bannerid=49 Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:4:214505 Archives: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/threads.cfm/4 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=s:4 Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4 Donations Support: http://www.houseoffusion.com/tiny.cfm/54
