RE: OT: Can form fields look differently?
There's no need to wait. Netcaptor has been doing it for a couple of years now. It's a skin that fits on top of IE. The multiple windowing thing is a huge convenience. Better than Opera imho as all windows are full-size. --Matt Robertson-- MSB Designs, Inc. http://mysecretbase.com -Original Message- From: S. Isaac Dealey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, September 20, 2002 6:17 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: OT: Can form fields look differently? S. Isaac Dealey wrote: - tabs ? You can open pages in tabs instead of windows. Ahh... yea, that's nice... It doesn't strike me as a real advantage tho .. it's available in Opera too ... Probably will be in the next version of IE. __ Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: OT: Can form fields look differently?
white with the normal border What does this mean? You can use CSS to change some things. On Fri, 20 Sep 2002, Rick Faircloth wrote: A little OT, but a quick one... Can form fields be made to look differently or are we stuck with the typical looking fields... white with the normal border? Rick __ Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: OT: Can form fields look differently?
white with the normal border What does this mean? You can use CSS to change some things. On Fri, 20 Sep 2002, Rick Faircloth wrote: A little OT, but a quick one... Can form fields be made to look differently or are we stuck with the typical looking fields... white with the normal border? CSS can be used to change an awful lot assuming the browser is capable of supporting the CSS ... Netscape 4.x doesn't support most style elements on form fields, and unfortunately, doesn't ignore them gracefully either. Instead, in NS 4.x if the browser doesn't understand a particular style element for a form field, it spits out a bunch of small box characters ( which usually indicate a font is missing character in character set ? ) and generally destroys the entire page. If you want to provide the extra style for ie only and allow the site to remain gracefull in other browsers, I'm told you can use an IE ?import tag to include the extra css -- which is gracefully ignored by NS4.x http://msdn.microsoft.com/workshop/author/dhtml/reference/pi/import.asp S. Isaac Dealey Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer www.turnkey.to 954-776-0046 __ Your ad could be here. Monies from ads go to support these lists and provide more resources for the community. http://www.fusionauthority.com/ads.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: OT: Can form fields look differently?
Netscape 4.x doesn't support most style elements on Remind me again why we should support NS4.x ? __ Your ad could be here. Monies from ads go to support these lists and provide more resources for the community. http://www.fusionauthority.com/ads.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: OT: Can form fields look differently?
Because some people either don't know how to update their browsers or choose not to ;-) -Gel -Original Message- From: Thomas Chiverton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Remind me again why we should support NS4.x ? __ Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: OT: Can form fields look differently?
oft I wonder the same. why support anything but ie 5+ if they don't have that, they really arent on the web anyway, are they? ..tony Tony Weeg Senior Web Developer Information System Design Navtrak, Inc. Fleet Management Solutions www.navtrak.net 410.548.2337 -Original Message- From: Thomas Chiverton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, September 20, 2002 11:30 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: OT: Can form fields look differently? Netscape 4.x doesn't support most style elements on Remind me again why we should support NS4.x ? __ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: OT: Can form fields look differently?
Because some people either don't know how to update their browsers or choose not to ;-) Remind me again why we should support NS4.x ? Why would you choose to be on NS4.x ? Tom Chiverton You don't have to be a mad scientist to believe in ColdFusion __ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: OT: Can form fields look differently?
why support anything but ie 5+ Well, support Mozilla / Gecko. It's very easy, because IE5.5/6 and Moz. are both very close to standards complience, and very often are able to use the same javascript. Which is nice. Tom Chiverton You don't have to be a mad scientist to believe in ColdFusion __ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: OT: Can form fields look differently?
The chart below shows the percentages of browsers out there. IE6 43% 46% 39% IE5 48% 37% 37% IE4 2.3% 1.2% .8% IE3 .05% 0 .8% IE2 .05% 0 .05% Gecko (NN6+, Mozilla, ...) 1.5% 3.4% 11% NN4 2.8% 5.9% 3.3% NN3 .05% .15% .05% Opera .95% 1.1% .75% (other) 0 1.7% .35% (unidentified) 1.3% 2.8% 7.3% This is from http://www.upsdell.com/BrowserNews/stat.htm. Go there to see why there are three categories. Although NN4 represents a small percentage of browsers, take into account how many customers you or your client have and then figure out what percentage of them cannot view your site properly, and if your or your clients site is one source of revenue, do the math to figure out how much you or they are losing. I have a client, who first thought that supporting NN4 users was not going to happen, but then they did the math, and stood to lose 0ver $26,000.00 based on these percentages. To them this is a big deal, so I had to make sure that the site supported NN4+ and IE4+ browsers. Just my .02 Bruce -Original Message- From: Thomas Chiverton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, September 20, 2002 9:30 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: OT: Can form fields look differently? Netscape 4.x doesn't support most style elements on Remind me again why we should support NS4.x ? __ Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: OT: Can form fields look differently?
Because they don't know any better, or you could be in an organisation that has standardised in the past on Netscape 4.x . Depending on the site, you just have to cater to the lowest common denominator. You can't disregard the non-techie dude or dudette that just uses whatever was installed on their computer by their unca Bob or their dear nephew Jimmy ;-) -Gel -Original Message- From: Thomas Chiverton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, September 20, 2002 11:43 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: OT: Can form fields look differently? Because some people either don't know how to update their browsers or choose not to ;-) Remind me again why we should support NS4.x ? Why would you choose to be on NS4.x ? Tom Chiverton You don't have to be a mad scientist to believe in ColdFusion __ Your ad could be here. Monies from ads go to support these lists and provide more resources for the community. http://www.fusionauthority.com/ads.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: OT: Can form fields look differently?
twas simply a rhetorical statement caused by years of tireless work urging clients to make the move to the ie of the browser world. hey, I was the most devout, diehard NS fan, way back from 99 to ns3, but when ie4 came out, it was time to switch, then ie5 and on upnothing compares, yeah mozilla is cool, but ie is the choice for most, so that's what I build for. it only took me looking at my web server logs to see that 99% of my visitors were IE (something) and then it was clear. ..tony Tony Weeg Senior Web Developer Information System Design Navtrak, Inc. Fleet Management Solutions www.navtrak.net 410.548.2337 -Original Message- From: Bruce Sorge [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, September 20, 2002 11:49 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: OT: Can form fields look differently? The chart below shows the percentages of browsers out there. IE6 43% 46% 39% IE5 48% 37% 37% IE4 2.3% 1.2% .8% IE3 .05% 0 .8% IE2 .05% 0 .05% Gecko (NN6+, Mozilla, ...) 1.5% 3.4% 11% NN4 2.8% 5.9% 3.3% NN3 .05% .15% .05% Opera .95% 1.1% .75% (other) 0 1.7% .35% (unidentified) 1.3% 2.8% 7.3% This is from http://www.upsdell.com/BrowserNews/stat.htm. Go there to see why there are three categories. Although NN4 represents a small percentage of browsers, take into account how many customers you or your client have and then figure out what percentage of them cannot view your site properly, and if your or your clients site is one source of revenue, do the math to figure out how much you or they are losing. I have a client, who first thought that supporting NN4 users was not going to happen, but then they did the math, and stood to lose 0ver $26,000.00 based on these percentages. To them this is a big deal, so I had to make sure that the site supported NN4+ and IE4+ browsers. Just my .02 Bruce -Original Message- From: Thomas Chiverton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, September 20, 2002 9:30 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: OT: Can form fields look differently? Netscape 4.x doesn't support most style elements on Remind me again why we should support NS4.x ? __ Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: OT: Can form fields look differently?
I'd love to dump NS 4.x support, but according to our logs NS accounts for 12% of our visitors and 4.x is over 60% of that. Heck, I see hits from NS 3. Kevin Graeme -Original Message- From: Thomas Chiverton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, September 20, 2002 10:30 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: OT: Can form fields look differently? Netscape 4.x doesn't support most style elements on Remind me again why we should support NS4.x ? __ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: OT: Can form fields look differently?
math, and stood to lose 0ver $26,000.00 based on these percentages. To them this is a big deal, so I had to make sure that the site supported NN4+ and IE4+ browsers. Yeah OK, there are cases for it. But in general ? I think it's best to let it die. But then I approve of http://www.alistapart.com/stories/tohell/ :-) Tom Chiverton You don't have to be a mad scientist to believe in ColdFusion __ Your ad could be here. Monies from ads go to support these lists and provide more resources for the community. http://www.fusionauthority.com/ads.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: OT: Can form fields look differently?
Not even Microsoft takes that view with their own site... If you are interested in AOL users on the Mac, you should at least support Mozilla. Opera as of v6 is now a very good browser, and easily supportable, 7 is going to finally bring DOM2 to Opera as well. IE is no longer available for the Unix platform either. I only use IE to test sites with these days, and it's quite a pain. -- jon mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Friday, September 20, 2002, 11:35:52 AM, you wrote: TW oft I wonder the same. TW why support anything but ie 5+ TW if they don't have that, they really TW arent on the web anyway, are they? TW ..tony TW -Original Message- TW From: Thomas Chiverton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] TW Sent: Friday, September 20, 2002 11:30 AM TW To: CF-Talk TW Subject: RE: OT: Can form fields look differently? Netscape 4.x doesn't support most style elements on TW Remind me again why we should support NS4.x ? __ This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting. FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: OT: Can form fields look differently?
If designers decided to not give support for certain browsers, would people upgrade to get the content/info??? Mark Stephenson New Media Director Evolution Internet T: 0870 757 1631 F: 0870 757 1632 W: www.evolutioninternet.co.uk E: [EMAIL PROTECTED] This email, together with any attachments, is for the exclusive and confidential use of the addressee(s). Any other distribution, use or reproduction without the sender's prior consent is unauthorised and strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender by email immediately and delete the message from your computer without making any copies. -Original Message- From: jon hall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 20 September 2002 17:03 To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: OT: Can form fields look differently? Not even Microsoft takes that view with their own site... If you are interested in AOL users on the Mac, you should at least support Mozilla. Opera as of v6 is now a very good browser, and easily supportable, 7 is going to finally bring DOM2 to Opera as well. IE is no longer available for the Unix platform either. I only use IE to test sites with these days, and it's quite a pain. -- jon mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Friday, September 20, 2002, 11:35:52 AM, you wrote: TW oft I wonder the same. TW why support anything but ie 5+ TW if they don't have that, they really TW arent on the web anyway, are they? TW ..tony TW -Original Message- TW From: Thomas Chiverton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] TW Sent: Friday, September 20, 2002 11:30 AM TW To: CF-Talk TW Subject: RE: OT: Can form fields look differently? Netscape 4.x doesn't support most style elements on TW Remind me again why we should support NS4.x ? __ Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: OT: Can form fields look differently?
Could it be that 99% of your visitors use IE because the remaining 1 percent visited your site, and realized it didn't work for them, so word spread that your site doesn't support non-IE browsers? :D Sorry, but when I see arguments like this I can't help but thinking that we get such high percentages because the other browsers simply aren't supported. So, if I were using Opera, or Mozilla, and visit a site that doesn't support them, I would see that on the first page, and then not bother with the remaining pages in the site. So, if an average user hits say 4 pages on a site, 25% of your overall ratings would be for the first page (potentially), and of that 25% you have a number of users who don't go any further. So now the entire percentage is skewed to those who DID visit the other pages, and by the way, that would be people who were using the supported browser. On a slightly different note, we still deal with customers/clients who only use NS 4.7x within their organization. Unfortunately, some of these customers are Fortune 500 companies, so are very large. So, for them we HAVE to worry about browser compatibility. For any site that could potentially be visited by employees of these companies, they'd be loosing a fair bit of business if they don't support NS4.7x. Yes, if we can focus on IE5.5+ only, our life gets easier, and we have a lot more options on how to do things. But These things can still be done on 4x browsers as well - you just need to take a slightly different approach (i.e. page reloads instead of using an IFrame to update a page) My thoughts Shawn -Original Message- From: Tony Weeg [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, September 20, 2002 9:53 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: OT: Can form fields look differently? twas simply a rhetorical statement caused by years of tireless work urging clients to make the move to the ie of the browser world. hey, I was the most devout, diehard NS fan, way back from 99 to ns3, but when ie4 came out, it was time to switch, then ie5 and on upnothing compares, yeah mozilla is cool, but ie is the choice for most, so that's what I build for. it only took me looking at my web server logs to see that 99% of my visitors were IE (something) and then it was clear. .tony Tony Weeg Senior Web Developer Information System Design Navtrak, Inc. Fleet Management Solutions www.navtrak.net 410.548.2337 -Original Message- From: Bruce Sorge [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, September 20, 2002 11:49 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: OT: Can form fields look differently? The chart below shows the percentages of browsers out there. IE6 43% 46% 39% IE5 48% 37% 37% IE4 2.3% 1.2% .8% IE3 .05% 0 .8% IE2 .05% 0 .05% Gecko (NN6+, Mozilla, ...) 1.5% 3.4% 11% NN4 2.8% 5.9% 3.3% NN3 .05% .15% .05% Opera .95% 1.1% .75% (other) 0 1.7% .35% (unidentified) 1.3% 2.8% 7.3% This is from http://www.upsdell.com/BrowserNews/stat.htm. Go there to see why there are three categories. Although NN4 represents a small percentage of browsers, take into account how many customers you or your client have and then figure out what percentage of them cannot view your site properly, and if your or your clients site is one source of revenue, do the math to figure out how much you or they are losing. I have a client, who first thought that supporting NN4 users was not going to happen, but then they did the math, and stood to lose 0ver $26,000.00 based on these percentages. To them this is a big deal, so I had to make sure that the site supported NN4+ and IE4+ browsers. Just my .02 Bruce -Original Message- From: Thomas Chiverton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, September 20, 2002 9:30 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: OT: Can form fields look differently? Netscape 4.x doesn't support most style elements on Remind me again why we should support NS4.x ? __ Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: OT: Can form fields look differently?
nope this was at a time when I tirelessley built pages that could handle everything for both styles of browsers, but then I just got sooo sick of dealing with thatthat I decided to make the site compliant for ie5+ and leave little notes for the NS users, letting them know to upgrade. heck I like the way mark stephenson thinks, we build for what we build for, and for once, designers can dictate the death of lousy browsers, through a lack of designing to comply with them. ..tony Tony Weeg Senior Web Developer Information System Design Navtrak, Inc. Fleet Management Solutions www.navtrak.net 410.548.2337 -Original Message- From: Shawn Grover [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, September 20, 2002 12:11 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: OT: Can form fields look differently? Could it be that 99% of your visitors use IE because the remaining 1 percent visited your site, and realized it didn't work for them, so word spread that your site doesn't support non-IE browsers? :D Sorry, but when I see arguments like this I can't help but thinking that we get such high percentages because the other browsers simply aren't supported. So, if I were using Opera, or Mozilla, and visit a site that doesn't support them, I would see that on the first page, and then not bother with the remaining pages in the site. So, if an average user hits say 4 pages on a site, 25% of your overall ratings would be for the first page (potentially), and of that 25% you have a number of users who don't go any further. So now the entire percentage is skewed to those who DID visit the other pages, and by the way, that would be people who were using the supported browser. On a slightly different note, we still deal with customers/clients who only use NS 4.7x within their organization. Unfortunately, some of these customers are Fortune 500 companies, so are very large. So, for them we HAVE to worry about browser compatibility. For any site that could potentially be visited by employees of these companies, they'd be loosing a fair bit of business if they don't support NS4.7x. Yes, if we can focus on IE5.5+ only, our life gets easier, and we have a lot more options on how to do things. But These things can still be done on 4x browsers as well - you just need to take a slightly different approach (i.e. page reloads instead of using an IFrame to update a page) My thoughts Shawn -Original Message- From: Tony Weeg [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, September 20, 2002 9:53 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: OT: Can form fields look differently? twas simply a rhetorical statement caused by years of tireless work urging clients to make the move to the ie of the browser world. hey, I was the most devout, diehard NS fan, way back from 99 to ns3, but when ie4 came out, it was time to switch, then ie5 and on upnothing compares, yeah mozilla is cool, but ie is the choice for most, so that's what I build for. it only took me looking at my web server logs to see that 99% of my visitors were IE (something) and then it was clear. tony Tony Weeg Senior Web Developer Information System Design Navtrak, Inc. Fleet Management Solutions www.navtrak.net 410.548.2337 -Original Message- From: Bruce Sorge [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, September 20, 2002 11:49 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: OT: Can form fields look differently? The chart below shows the percentages of browsers out there. IE6 43% 46% 39% IE5 48% 37% 37% IE4 2.3% 1.2% .8% IE3 .05% 0 .8% IE2 .05% 0 .05% Gecko (NN6+, Mozilla, ...) 1.5% 3.4% 11% NN4 2.8% 5.9% 3.3% NN3 .05% .15% .05% Opera .95% 1.1% .75% (other) 0 1.7% .35% (unidentified) 1.3% 2.8% 7.3% This is from http://www.upsdell.com/BrowserNews/stat.htm. Go there to see why there are three categories. Although NN4 represents a small percentage of browsers, take into account how many customers you or your client have and then figure out what percentage of them cannot view your site properly, and if your or your clients site is one source of revenue, do the math to figure out how much you or they are losing. I have a client, who first thought that supporting NN4 users was not going to happen, but then they did the math, and stood to lose 0ver $26,000.00 based on these percentages. To them this is a big deal, so I had to make sure that the site supported NN4+ and IE4+ browsers. Just my .02 Bruce -Original Message- From: Thomas Chiverton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, September 20, 2002 9:30 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: OT: Can form fields look differently? Netscape 4.x doesn't support most style elements on Remind me again why we should support NS4.x ? __ Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http
Re: OT: Can form fields look differently?
Friday, September 20, 2002, 12:10:52 PM, you wrote: SG more options on how to do things. But These things can still be done on 4x SG browsers as well - you just need to take a slightly different approach (i.e. SG page reloads instead of using an IFrame to update a page) ILayers work quite well in NS4... -- jon mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: OT: Can form fields look differently?
Netscape 4.x doesn't support most style elements You can downgrade forms gracefully. That way NN4 users see the crappy form they deserve and everyone else gets the good stuff. The first code block below is an include. There's probably a better way to run that big ol' CFIF. Anyone know what it is, offhand? CFPARAM NAME=variables.NNVer DEFAULT=6 TYPE=string CFIF CompareNoCase(FindNoCase(Mozilla, #cgi.HTTP_User_Agent#),0) AND NOT CompareNoCase(FindNoCase(MSIE, #cgi.HTTP_User_Agent#),0) AND NOT CompareNoCase(FindNoCase(Opera, #cgi.HTTP_User_Agent#),0) AND NOT CompareNoCase(FindNoCase(WebTV, #cgi.HTTP_User_Agent#),0) AND NOT CompareNoCase(FindNoCase(compatible, #cgi.HTTP_User_Agent#),0) !--- bummer. Its Netscape --- CFSET variables.NNVer=GetToken(#cgi.HTTP_User_Agent#, 2, / () /CFIF INPUT TYPE=Text NAME=blah SIZE=10 MAXLENGTH=20 CFIF variables.NNVer GTE 5CLASS=formfield/CFIF __ This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting. FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: OT: Can form fields look differently?
This may sound really strange, but at my last job, my boss preferred NS, Mozilla and Opera because of their lack of support for certain CSS and JavaScript... Partly because of pop-up's, but I think also because he just didn't like Microsoft so much so that he'd rather not have to use their software even if it's demonstrably superior than the competition's -- and would convince himself, regardless of circumstance that Microsoft technology was patently inferior to anything and everything else. That didn't prevent him from using MS software, but he did so grudgingly. My personal experience is that I prefer IE for it's look and feel and it's ability to render CSS gracefully. IE 5+ dhtml is an added bonus when you can get away with it. A couple years ago when I started adding Javascript to my Tapestry cms I wasn't really paying too much attention to compatibility issues and I wound up using some dhtml which is IE specific. Although I'd love for the back-end UI to support other browsers I just don't have the time ( as a single developer ) to make sure the javascript is compatible with NS -- and at the moment it's just plain _not_ compatible with Opera because Opera doesn't really support altering the contents of a page after it's rendered, in particular the .innerHTML property which afaik is supported by both IE and NSN/Moz. There are a couple of JavaScript API's designed to be cross-browser compatible, such as dynapi and domapi ( www.domapi.com ) but dynapi is sort of floundering lately and domapi is still fairly buggy when I tried it in IE 5, NS 6/7, Opera (?) and Mozilla (?). So I settle on the fact that my UI is beautiful and graceful and very user-friendly but only supports IE for now. It doesn't affect the published content from the cms, so I've limited my market for now to corporate buyers who are standardized on IE 5+, which I can live with, considering the current state of corporate affairs. S. Isaac Dealey Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer www.turnkey.to 954-776-0046 Because they don't know any better, or you could be in an organisation that has standardised in the past on Netscape 4.x . Depending on the site, you just have to cater to the lowest common denominator. You can't disregard the non-techie dude or dudette that just uses whatever was installed on their computer by their unca Bob or their dear nephew Jimmy ;-) -Gel -Original Message- From: Thomas Chiverton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, September 20, 2002 11:43 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: OT: Can form fields look differently? Because some people either don't know how to update their browsers or choose not to ;-) Remind me again why we should support NS4.x ? Why would you choose to be on NS4.x ? Tom Chiverton You don't have to be a mad scientist to believe in ColdFusion __ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: OT: Can form fields look differently?
I had the same experience... There's a radical shift between IE and NS 2 and IE and NS 6 ... Happened somewhere between 4 and 5 of each browser... IE 2 still had that bug that would cause it to suddenly freak-out and fill the screen with error popup alerts which would take the entire OS with it on Windows. NS 2 was much more stable and at the time comparable in terms of rendering, so it was the obvious choice at the time if you were even marginally computer literate. Now IE 5/6 is nice and stable and NS 6/7 is still slow to render and doesn't offer any real demonstrable advantages, so it's the obvious choice for those who are reasonably computer literate, who can choose ( are not in an NS 4 standardized office ), and who don't harbor a deep-seeded loathing of all things M$. S. Isaac Dealey Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer www.turnkey.to 954-776-0046 twas simply a rhetorical statement caused by years of tireless work urging clients to make the move to the ie of the browser world. hey, I was the most devout, diehard NS fan, way back from 99 to ns3, but when ie4 came out, it was time to switch, then ie5 and on upnothing compares, yeah mozilla is cool, but ie is the choice for most, so that's what I build for. it only took me looking at my web server logs to see that 99% of my visitors were IE (something) and then it was clear. __ Your ad could be here. Monies from ads go to support these lists and provide more resources for the community. http://www.fusionauthority.com/ads.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: OT: Can form fields look differently?
Mark Stephenson - Evolution Internet wrote: If designers decided to not give support for certain browsers, would people upgrade to get the content/info??? Don't support browsers, support standards. Jochem -- Following the advice in this email may lead to your website being inaccessible to 99% of the visitors. Too bad for them. __ This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting. FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: OT: Can form fields look differently?
Not even Microsoft takes that view with their own site... They tried to once... Remember the Hotmail snafu? You couldn't get into Hotmail unless you were using a standards compliant browser... and it turned out that standards compliant meant says it's engineered by Microsoft, because you could get in using Opera. If you are interested in AOL users on the Mac, you should at least support Mozilla. Opera as of v6 is now a very good browser, and easily supportable, 7 is going to finally bring DOM2 to Opera as well. I hope they trash the default identify as IE 5 approach... Actually, I hope they rip the ability to identify as anything other than Opera. I think corporations should be allowed to standardize on a given browser if they _want_ to -- and Opera deprives them of that ability. IE is no longer available for the Unix platform either. I only use IE to test sites with these days, and it's quite a pain. .. Wasn't aware of that... sigh... I guess that will create problems for me when I try to add Linux/Solaris support for Tapestry. S. Isaac Dealey Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer www.turnkey.to 954-776-0046 __ Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: OT: Can form fields look differently?
S. Isaac Dealey wrote: Now IE 5/6 is nice and stable and NS 6/7 is still slow to render You have any numbers on that? and doesn't offer any real demonstrable advantages, - popup blocking - CSS support - tabs - mouse gestures - grouped bookmarks - security patch turnaround time on known bugs so it's the obvious choice for those who are reasonably computer literate Some people might disagree. Jochem __ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: OT: Can form fields look differently?
S. Isaac Dealey wrote: My personal experience is that I prefer IE for it's look and feel and it's ability to render CSS gracefully. Visit http://spike.oli.tudelft.nl/jochemd/index.cfm?PageID=12css=true in Mozilla and IE and tell me again how gracefully IE handles CSS. The text about IE being 100% CSS Level 1 compliant on the MS site is an outright lie, and one they refuse to correct. Jochem __ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: OT: Can form fields look differently?
Not that it matters, but the Validate CSS link at the bottom of the page you reference says there is an error. -Original Message- From: Jochem van Dieten [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, September 20, 2002 3:23 PM To: CF-Talk Subject:Re: OT: Can form fields look differently? S. Isaac Dealey wrote: My personal experience is that I prefer IE for it's look and feel and it's ability to render CSS gracefully. Visit http://spike.oli.tudelft.nl/jochemd/index.cfm?PageID=12css=true in Mozilla and IE and tell me again how gracefully IE handles CSS. The text about IE being 100% CSS Level 1 compliant on the MS site is an outright lie, and one they refuse to correct. Jochem __ Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: OT: Can form fields look differently?
It consistently amazes me how the website for the w3c, the organization that defines the standard for web documents, can be so completely counterintuitive and practically impossible to navigate, retrieve and translate useful information from. Do these people live on some other planet where (for instance) the word download means show me a page full of information about anything other than downloading files? ... Or are they so hopelessly technical that they're incapable of doing anything without a compiler and source code? Not that it matters, but the Validate CSS link at the bottom of the page you reference says there is an error. -Original Message- From: Jochem van Dieten [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, September 20, 2002 3:23 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: OT: Can form fields look differently? S. Isaac Dealey wrote: My personal experience is that I prefer IE for it's look and feel and it's ability to render CSS gracefully. Visit http://spike.oli.tudelft.nl/jochemd/index.cfm?PageID =12css=true in Mozilla and IE and tell me again how gracefully IE handles CSS. The text about IE being 100% CSS Level 1 compliant on the MS site is an outright lie, and one they refuse to correct. Jochem Isaac Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer www.turnkey.to 954-776-0046 __ Get the mailserver that powers this list at http://www.coolfusion.com FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: OT: Can form fields look differently?
Generally speaking I'm not trying to use transparency and water-marks ... so... okay, NS 7 does a better job of supporting that in particular ... I haven't really used NS as a default browser in a while, like I say, so I'm still remembering NS 4 choking to holy hell on what seemed to be reasonably simple things, like oh... a border on a text field... The transparency and the water mark on this page you have as an example is something that's reasonably complex, and even though it doesn't work in IE and doesn't look all that terribly pretty, it doesn't make the page completely unusable as did the afforementioned border in NS 4.9 ... Given time and more developers adhering to the standard, I would expect MS to solve the box model problems, etc. S. Isaac Dealey wrote: My personal experience is that I prefer IE for it's look and feel and it's ability to render CSS gracefully. Visit http://spike.oli.tudelft.nl/jochemd/index.cfm?PageID =12css=true in Mozilla and IE and tell me again how gracefully IE handles CSS. The text about IE being 100% CSS Level 1 compliant on the MS site is an outright lie, and one they refuse to correct. Jochem Isaac Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer www.turnkey.to 954-776-0046 __ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: OT: Can form fields look differently?
S. Isaac Dealey wrote: Now IE 5/6 is nice and stable and NS 6/7 is still slow to render You have any numbers on that? No benchmarks -- just a personal observation... May have a lot to do with the pages I was viewing having a lot of nested tables on them, but the last time I spent any time comparing code in both, NS was noticeably slower rending a flat html page on my local machine. and doesn't offer any real demonstrable advantages, - popup blocking I have this in IE. - CSS support I have most of this in IE. - tabs ? - mouse gestures ? - grouped bookmarks Don't we have folders for favorites in IE? Or do you mean setting them programatically from a page in a website? - security patch turnaround time on known bugs I definitely can't speak to this. so it's the obvious choice for those who are reasonably computer literate Some people might disagree. I'd expect them to. :) Actually, I'd really like to see some good examples of the tabs mouse gestures if you've got some handy. I'm curious now. :) Isaac Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer www.turnkey.to 954-776-0046 __ This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting. FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: OT: Can form fields look differently?
S. Isaac Dealey wrote: - tabs ? You can open pages in tabs instead of windows. - mouse gestures ? You can add behaviours to mouse movements. Like doing a View Source when drawing an S with your mouse on the page. - grouped bookmarks Don't we have folders for favorites in IE? Or do you mean setting them programatically from a page in a website? Clicking a single bookmark and multiple pages are opened in separate tabs. Like one bookmark to open CNN, NYT, BBC and C-SPAN. Jochem __ This list and all House of Fusion resources hosted by CFHosting.com. The place for dependable ColdFusion Hosting. FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: OT: Can form fields look differently?
S. Isaac Dealey wrote: The transparency and the water mark on this page you have as an example is something that's reasonably complex, and even though it doesn't work in IE and doesn't look all that terribly pretty, it doesn't make the page completely unusable as did the afforementioned border in NS 4.9 Several IE users have reported that background colors of div elements are invisible. Which is not nice if the body background is white and the font inside the div is white as well. And that does make the page completely unusable (even Lynx is more readable). Jochem __ Your ad could be here. Monies from ads go to support these lists and provide more resources for the community. http://www.fusionauthority.com/ads.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: OT: Can form fields look differently?
S. Isaac Dealey wrote: - tabs ? You can open pages in tabs instead of windows. Ahh... yea, that's nice... It doesn't strike me as a real advantage tho ... it's available in Opera too ... Probably will be in the next version of IE. - mouse gestures ? You can add behaviours to mouse movements. Like doing a View Source when drawing an S with your mouse on the page. That sounds to me like a recipe for frustration. - grouped bookmarks Don't we have folders for favorites in IE? Or do you mean setting them programatically from a page in a website? Clicking a single bookmark and multiple pages are opened in separate tabs. Like one bookmark to open CNN, NYT, BBC and C-SPAN. Okay ... .. I'm only going to _read_ one at a time... Okay, so ... it has features that could be seen as obvious advantages ... just not for me... In retrospect, I have NS 7 installed now and it does seem to be noticeably faster rendering than the last NS 6 version I installed a while ago... Isaac Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer www.turnkey.to 954-776-0046 __ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: OT: Can form fields look differently?
S. Isaac Dealey wrote: The transparency and the water mark on this page you have as an example is something that's reasonably complex, and even though it doesn't work in IE and doesn't look all that terribly pretty, it doesn't make the page completely unusable as did the afforementioned border in NS 4.9 Several IE users have reported that background colors of div elements are invisible. Which is not nice if the body background is white and the font inside the div is white as well. And that does make the page completely unusable (even Lynx is more readable). Do you know what version of IE? ... 'cause I don't advocate IE 4 any more than I advocate NS 4 ... and it wasn't an experience I had ... I suppose it could be affected by the OS as well... Isaac Certified Advanced ColdFusion 5 Developer www.turnkey.to 954-776-0046 __ Signup for the Fusion Authority news alert and keep up with the latest news in ColdFusion and related topics. http://www.fusionauthority.com/signup.cfm FAQ: http://www.thenetprofits.co.uk/coldfusion/faq Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
