Re: OT: what if the next CF...
On Friday 04 August 2006 21:34, RADEMAKERS Tanguy wrote: > This is the question: what if you turned cf into TWO products: an SDK / > IDE combo that included at least the cfml parser and maybe even the > compiler, and a server component that gave you access to more > "enterprisey" options? CF without a server would be fairly useless for web sites / services, no ? > that would make Ruby on Rails look slow... and you're developing the > "newest freshest" RIAs, not just some old school web application. The app wizard in FB already does this. -- Tom Chiverton This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at St James's Court Brown Street Manchester M2 2JF. A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP. Regulated by the Law Society. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents. If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 8008. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com. ~| Introducing the Fusion Authority Quarterly Update. 80 pages of hard-hitting, up-to-date ColdFusion information by your peers, delivered to your door four times a year. http://www.fusionauthority.com/quarterly Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:248976 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: OT: what if the next CF...
> CF without a server would be fairly useless for web sites / services, > no ? My bad for not making it more clear - you would still deploy your cf apps in a J2EE server just like you do today. /t ~| Introducing the Fusion Authority Quarterly Update. 80 pages of hard-hitting, up-to-date ColdFusion information by your peers, delivered to your door four times a year. http://www.fusionauthority.com/quarterly Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:249020 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: OT: what if the next CF...
On 8/7/06, Tanguy Rademakers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:> CF without a server would be fairly useless for web sites / services, > no ? My bad for not making it more clear - you would still deploy your cf apps in a J2EE server just like you do today. -- It was clear over hear. Er. Here, even. I meant to "say" something earlier: I think you're really onto something with these ideas! Really, it was fun watching the brain-storm. (-: Sorry if that sounds corn-ballish. I just love a good "what if?", ya know? And to touch on a post someone else made to the thread: It would have to be a license free EAR or WAR that gets "exported"; needing licenses for these apps defeats the idea that I think was key to that part... the "free" & EOD (Ease Of Deployment ;)... Maybe competition/extension with/of say, Java, PHP, OpenLaszlo? Putting the power in the hands of the developers! Mix in say, Jasper and Funambol... that would be one far out, capable mix of stuff. Make it all modular, only exporting what's needed... And theoretically, everyone could still make a ton of money... I know, never gonna happen. Eh, made a good story... =] :Den -ps is this text gray? ~| Introducing the Fusion Authority Quarterly Update. 80 pages of hard-hitting, up-to-date ColdFusion information by your peers, delivered to your door four times a year. http://www.fusionauthority.com/quarterly Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:249086 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: OT: what if the next CF...
> And to touch on a post someone else made to the thread: It > would have to be a license free EAR or WAR that gets > "exported"; needing licenses for these apps defeats the idea > that I think was key to that part... the "free" & EOD (Ease > Of Deployment ;)... Maybe competition/extension with/of say, > Java, PHP, OpenLaszlo? Putting the power in the hands of the > developers! > > Mix in say, Jasper and Funambol... that would be one far > out, capable mix of stuff. Make it all modular, only > exporting what's needed... > And theoretically, everyone could still make a ton of money... I don't see how Adobe would make any money, since no one would have to buy their product to use it. If I could deploy a license-free EAR from my free developers' edition of CF, I wouldn't need to buy anything at all. CF 7 already includes Jasper Reports, also. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Introducing the Fusion Authority Quarterly Update. 80 pages of hard-hitting, up-to-date ColdFusion information by your peers, delivered to your door four times a year. http://www.fusionauthority.com/quarterly Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:249092 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: OT: what if the next CF...
On Tuesday 08 August 2006 03:30, Dave Watts wrote: > I don't see how Adobe would make any money, since no one would have to buy > their product to use it. If I could deploy a license-free EAR from my free > developers' edition of CF, I wouldn't need to buy anything at all. I'm sure corporates would pay for support or early updates. That said, didn't RedHat try that and give it up as a bad idea ? -- Tom Chiverton This email is sent for and on behalf of Halliwells LLP. Halliwells LLP is a limited liability partnership registered in England and Wales under registered number OC307980 whose registered office address is at St James's Court Brown Street Manchester M2 2JF. A list of members is available for inspection at the registered office. Any reference to a partner in relation to Halliwells LLP means a member of Halliwells LLP. Regulated by the Law Society. CONFIDENTIALITY This email is intended only for the use of the addressee named above and may be confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the addressee you must not read it and must not use any information contained in nor copy it nor inform any person other than Halliwells LLP or the addressee of its existence or contents. If you have received this email in error please delete it and notify Halliwells LLP IT Department on 0870 365 8008. For more information about Halliwells LLP visit www.halliwells.com. ~| Introducing the Fusion Authority Quarterly Update. 80 pages of hard-hitting, up-to-date ColdFusion information by your peers, delivered to your door four times a year. http://www.fusionauthority.com/quarterly Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:249121 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: OT: what if the next CF...
On 8/8/06, Tom Chiverton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On Tuesday 08 August 2006 03:30, Dave Watts wrote: > > I don't see how Adobe would make any money, since no one would have to > buy > > their product to use it. If I could deploy a license-free EAR from my > free > > developers' edition of CF, I wouldn't need to buy anything at all. > > I'm sure corporates would pay for support or early updates. Or focus on certain aspects, perhaps. I think Dave himself said that the thing worth the most money is time, right Dave? That said, didn't RedHat try that and give it up as a bad idea ? One man's wheel isn't always the best wheel for the job. I see a future where it's possible to make money off of "free" stuff, and yet have the "free" stuff move forward. I could be proven wrong, life is weird like that, but I feel it's a model that has potential, if it hasn't been proven already. And I was thinking more about JasperIntelligence, when I was talking jasper. Seems like a "good idea"; a report "server". Although it /would/ be nice to be able to add newer versions of .jars easier... guess there's a wishlist item, heh. iReport is a good report builder, and works cross-platform... they've really been moving forward, all separate, yet together. Or something like that, maybe. I know there is recouping and whatnot that has to go on, and I'm not suggesting that it's plausible, this stuff happening- Adobe is pretty big to be switching tracks that way. Just sounds nice, I guess. Maybe. Costing money up front is part of what makes CF special. Ah, what fun, what if's! Coding is fun too though... hmmm... :Denny ~| Introducing the Fusion Authority Quarterly Update. 80 pages of hard-hitting, up-to-date ColdFusion information by your peers, delivered to your door four times a year. http://www.fusionauthority.com/quarterly Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:249127 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: OT: what if the next CF...
>I don't see how Adobe would make any money, since no one would have to buy >their product to use it. If I could deploy a license-free EAR from my free >developers' edition of CF, I wouldn't need to buy anything at all. CF 7 >already includes Jasper Reports, also. Well, you don't have to buy anything from Adobe to produce and deploy Flex based apps, since the SDK is free of charge... but i think Adobe plans to make some money off that product ;) If you wanted to use "enterprise" features in your cf apps, you would buy a separate server side component - the cf equivalent of the flex data services. The trend being "enterprise functionality for users with enterprise needs, at enterprise prices" (colloquially known as "Want more? Pay more!"). Of course, just what constitutes an "enterprise" feature would be up to Adobe. And let's not forget the revenue from selling a cf IDE - equivalent to flex builder. /t ~| Introducing the Fusion Authority Quarterly Update. 80 pages of hard-hitting, up-to-date ColdFusion information by your peers, delivered to your door four times a year. http://www.fusionauthority.com/quarterly Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:249215 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: OT: what if the next CF...
Well, you don't have to buy anything from Adobe to produce and deploy Flex based apps, since the SDK is free of charge... but i think Adobe plans to make some money off that product ;) Good point. When Ben Forta was at my local user group giving a Flex 2 presentation, I pointedly asked him how Adobe planned to make money off of Flex when their IDE wasn't required to build it, and the SDK compiler could be obtained for free. His basic answer was that they believed they had built the best mouse-trap for the job and the majority of people would fork over the money for their nicely packaged IDE because it is (in their opinion) the easiest and best app to use when building Flex 2. ~Brad ~| Introducing the Fusion Authority Quarterly Update. 80 pages of hard-hitting, up-to-date ColdFusion information by your peers, delivered to your door four times a year. http://www.fusionauthority.com/quarterly Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:249217 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: OT: what if the next CF...
> Well, you don't have to buy anything from Adobe to produce > and deploy Flex based apps, since the SDK is free of > charge... but i think Adobe plans to make some money off that > product ;) I think the value proposition there is quite different. There is no required server-side component for Flex 2. FlexBuilder is essentially just another Flash IDE, like Flash 8. The value proposition here is that Adobe's editor is good enough that you should buy it to save yourself the effort of building Flash files without it. CF, on the other hand, is nothing but server-side functionality. While it's most often used to generate HTML, it can be used to generate all sorts of text for all sorts of consumption. It's much harder to build a useful IDE for that, since the big draw of IDEs is generally the integration of visual and code editing functionality. For what it's worth, Dreamweaver is a kick-ass HTML authoring tool, but it's not universally popular with CF developers, while CF Studio and Eclipse are inferior HTML authoring environments, but apparently more popular with CF developers. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers in Washington DC, Atlanta, Chicago, Baltimore, Northern Virginia, or on-site at your location. Visit http://training.figleaf.com/ for more information! ~| Introducing the Fusion Authority Quarterly Update. 80 pages of hard-hitting, up-to-date ColdFusion information by your peers, delivered to your door four times a year. http://www.fusionauthority.com/quarterly Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:249225 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: OT: what if the next CF...
*** Warning, long OD (original dennish) post. *** On 8/8/06, Dave Watts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Well, you don't have to buy anything from Adobe to produce > > and deploy Flex based apps, since the SDK is free of > > charge... but i think Adobe plans to make some money off that > > product ;) > > I think the value proposition there is quite different. There is no > required > server-side component for Flex 2. FlexBuilder is essentially just another > Flash IDE, like Flash 8. The value proposition here is that Adobe's editor > is good enough that you should buy it to save yourself the effort of > building Flash files without it. I think you hit the nail on the head, but stopped pounding. I liked the Need more? Pay more! idea. Wouldn't it be cool if the competition was about quality of tools, vs. "this is all you can use, someday we'll X"? CF, on the other hand, is nothing but server-side functionality. While it's > most often used to generate HTML, it can be used to generate all sorts of > text for all sorts of consumption. It's much harder to build a useful IDE > for that, since the big draw of IDEs is generally the integration of > visual > and code editing functionality. For what it's worth, Dreamweaver is a > kick-ass HTML authoring tool, but it's not universally popular with CF > developers, while CF Studio and Eclipse are inferior HTML authoring > environments, but apparently more popular with CF developers. I think you may be conflating "inferior" with "different". Not everyone values form over substance, and there's always debate about the two anyways. And IDE, to me, doesn't shout WYSIWYG. WYSIWYG can be nice, don't get me wrong, but it's not the end-all, be-all. If you ask me, (which, no one did), I'd say DW is the top WYSIWYG tool, but not the top tool, if that makes sense. I guess I don't see a IDE as having to have a "visual" component, actually (More of a "best" (or "inferior", for that matter) depends on context, when comparing things idea). ** For instance, does Adobe "own" HTML? Surely they can't make money on DW without owning HTML, right? And, hey!, is HTML client side or server side? It's not just plain text, it needs a app, even just to render locally. But so does a PDF. Hrm. Guess that is a stretch of the client/server analogy, but still... I guess it boils down to it is counter intuitive: the idea that by giving, you get. Maybe. Bah. Now I'm waxing weird and philosophical. I'll tell you one thing though, what impressed me about the Flex Builder 2 wasn't that it could compile the code and show me an SWF representation; it was the fact that you could hover your mouse on a function, and ctrl+click to go right to that function's code. But we all place different values on things, right? Another reason, (if you ask me), for as many options as possible. Good options will make money, as will well marketed, crappy ones; same as always. People were writing off open source, back in the day, as an idea that was too Utopian to work. No obvious way to make money (to the unimaginative), thus doomed to failure. I'm not saying OS is the end-all, be-all, but I'd say it's here to stay. (And the "drug^H^H^H^Hmousetrap" idea has been proven effective.) We all have to think about how "free" impacts us, as professionals, and members of the global community. I don't think it's something to fear. Done right, I see awesome possibilities ahead. Let's see.. Woke up. Talked with Marge. Ate Guatemalan insanity peppers... I think my drain is bramaged! - Homer (an american sage) Sorry to rant on this Dave, if it comes across that way. I bet you don't choose sides on the "GUI vs. command line" debate, or "OS vs. closed source" discussions, knowing there are good and bad about both. Maybe you do; either way, it's just ideas, and about ideas, even when it seems emotion is involved. I'm an emotional fellow, folks, but like to think logic plays a part, so while "inferior" might have touched a nerve, making this response sorta antagonistic, it's the ideas I care about. And this isn't about IDEs, it's about ideas, and [?] how people can make money off of stuff without "owning" or "controlling". And how I'm an awesome debater. AWESOME, I tell you. E'Specially with myself. My lawyer said to put that last run-on paragraph in there. ;-) Sheesh. I'm silly. :Denny ~| Introducing the Fusion Authority Quarterly Update. 80 pages of hard-hitting, up-to-date ColdFusion information by your peers, delivered to your door four times a year. http://www.fusionauthority.com/quarterly Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:249252 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
