Re: Another debate
>From what I understand, ZDNet allowed some of the vendors to come in after the initial test results and tweak the output. Allaire was not one of those. I am sure that given the opportunity to do that tweaking, CF would be as fast, or possibly faster than PHP. larry -- Larry C. Lyons ColdFusion/Web Developer EBStor.com 8870 Rixlew Lane, Suite 201 Manassas, Virginia 20109-3795 tel: (703) 393-7930 x253 fax: (703) 393-2659 http://www.ebstor.com http://www.pacel.com email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Chaos, panic, and disorder - my work here is done. -- Billy Cravens wrote: > > That article isn't necessarily good ammo: > > PHP pages/second: 47 > ColdFusion pages/second: 29 > > -- > Billy Cravens > [EMAIL PROTECTED] ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Another debate
That article isn't necessarily good ammo: PHP pages/second: 47 ColdFusion pages/second: 29 -- Billy Cravens [EMAIL PROTECTED] (According to the article) Chasmo wrote: > > Here's some ammo for you if the debate suddenly goes "unmoot." > > ZDNet recently did comparisons of various scripting languages > running on Linux and Win platforms. They compared performance, > breadth of the API, etc. > > ColdFusion won hands down, even winning ZDNet's pick over ASP > on Win machines. > > http://www.zdnet.com/enterprise/stories/linux/0,12249,2646052,00.html > > Hope this helps. > > I've come across this situations like Kelly's before. Everyone has > their "pet" tool, and usually it's the result of them being familiar with > that particular tool and unfamiliar with others. Even though I > obviously prefer CF, I like to stay open-minded enough that I don't > try to argue that CF is the only tool for a job. > > There are several good middleware tools out there (and a few > terrible ones--does anyone remember Lasso?), and the truth is that > almost any of them can be used to create a great site. But in most > cases there really isn't much reason to make a major switch > between one or the other except for developer preference or > stubborn-headedness as seems to apply in Kelly's case. > > Charles Mohnike > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > - Original Message - > > > From: Kelly Shepard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > To: CF-Talk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 12:14 PM > > > Subject: Another debate > > > > > > > > > > The new boss has arrived in my department and of course he wants > > everyone > > > to > > > > switch from the awesome and all mighty cold fusion to PHP. We do > > need > > > > some other strengths in our department for those clients who don't want > > us > > > > to host their application or don't have cf on their server, but, he > > wants > > > a > > > > complete switch. Here is a glimpse into his last email: > > > > > > > > "It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths and > > > > weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not > > an > > > > option due to cost and security problems. I realize that changing > > > > perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but necessary. > > > > Especially in our industry (high-tech). > > > > > > > > The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point." > > > > > > > > Does anyone have any opinions on his security problems comment? It > > seems > > > > that alliare is pretty good about getting patches up - or we have just > > > been > > > > lucky and not had any problems. And, would you agree that in the > > > corporate > > > > IT department cf is "usually" not an option? > > > > > > > > Thanks in advance for any input. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Another debate
It has COM support on NT only. The downside is if you wanted to migrate servers from NT to Unix, you're kinda hosed if you were using COM objects. Jamie -- Jamie Keane Programmer SolutionMasters, Inc. 9111 Monroe Rd., Suite 100 Charlotte, NC 28270 www.solutionmasters.com 704.563.5559 x 228 Voice 704.849.9291 Fax -Original Message- From: lsellers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: CF-Talk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Thursday, December 14, 2000 2:08 AM Subject: RE: Another debate > >> #2. Extensible into Java/COM/etc >> #2 and #4 are not available in PHP, nor is formal support available > >Not that I really know what the hell I'm talking about as far as PHP goes, >but I thought php4 had COM support(?). > >--min > > > ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
re: RE: Another debate
I have had employers call me in for CF programmer position and start by telling me that CF is for kids who like to play and that the real development way is ASP Usually when i produce some evidence to the contrary it shuts them up, but i never get the job :) I had a new boss come in , he wanted everything redone in Perl, all 25 of our running Cf shopping carts. He didn't know Cf so he hated it, he was making a simple databse application for a client and struggled for 2 weeks to create it and failed, finally i offered to do it and finished the project in , literally, 3 hours. That floored him, now he is a CF programmer. Demonstrate the powqer of CF and they cannot deny it. Mostly i find people that raise security concerns are doing some quick reading on the web to pretend they know something. As all developers know, there is no language or method that has no potential for exploitation secutiy wize, good developers stay up with the latest issues and act accordingly #code.monkey# Change is the only constant Download NeoPlanet at http://www.neoplanet.com ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Another debate
> ** Original Subject: RE: Another debate > ** Original Sender: "Braver, Ben:" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > ** Original Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2000 15:06:09 -0500 > ** Original Message follows... > > > Well, for one thing, your boss needs to brush up on his English, and learn > the difference between "mute" and "moot" > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Kelly Shepard [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > > Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 9:14 AM > > To: CF-Talk > > Subject:Another debate > > > > The new boss has arrived in my department and of course he wants everyone > > to > > switch from the awesome and all mighty cold fusion to PHP. We do need > > some other strengths in our department for those clients who don't want us > > to host their application or don't have cf on their server, but, he wants > > a > > complete switch. Here is a glimpse into his last email: > > > > "It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths and > > weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not an > > option due to cost and security problems. I realize that changing > > perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but necessary. > > Especially in our industry (high-tech). > > > > The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point." > > > > Does anyone have any opinions on his security problems comment? It seems > > that alliare is pretty good about getting patches up - or we have just > > been > > lucky and not had any problems. And, would you agree that in the > > corporate > > IT department cf is "usually" not an option? > > > > Thanks in advance for any input. > > > > > > > ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Another debate
All of this boils down to opinion and personal choice. You say CF is a great technology and PHP is a good technology, while I say PHP is a great technology and CF is only a good technology... either way, we could argue this for hours, days, weeks, years and neither one of us (not you specifically, the general 'us' associated with mailing lists) would change the others mind... PHP has many advantages over CF, but they would only be advantages to somebody would could take advantage of them. Original Message - From: "DeVoil, Nick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "CF-Talk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2000 2:19 AM Subject: RE: Another debate > For a developer, PHP has *one* big advantage over CF - > user-defined functions. > > With CF5 that advantage just disappeared. > > BTW, you *can* write DBMS-independent code with PHP, > if you use PHPLIB. But you don't have all of > CF's cacheing features built in. > > PHP is a good technology. CF is a great technology. > > $0.02 > > Nick. > > > ** > Information in this email is confidential and may be privileged. > It is intended for the addressee only. If you have received it in error, > please notify the sender immediately and delete it from your system. > You should not otherwise copy it, retransmit it or use or disclose its > contents to anyone. > Thank you for your co-operation. > ** > > ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Another debate
This is actually accurate. There is a module for PHP , which give a common interface to several DBs. Justin >One big difference: in PHP you will have to write database-vendor >specific code. The code to use Sybase is different than SQLServer >is different than Oracle, etc. >If portability is important, then that will be a problem. ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Another debate
For a developer, PHP has *one* big advantage over CF - user-defined functions. With CF5 that advantage just disappeared. BTW, you *can* write DBMS-independent code with PHP, if you use PHPLIB. But you don't have all of CF's cacheing features built in. PHP is a good technology. CF is a great technology. $0.02 Nick. ** Information in this email is confidential and may be privileged. It is intended for the addressee only. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete it from your system. You should not otherwise copy it, retransmit it or use or disclose its contents to anyone. Thank you for your co-operation. ** ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Another debate
> #2. Extensible into Java/COM/etc > #2 and #4 are not available in PHP, nor is formal support available Not that I really know what the hell I'm talking about as far as PHP goes, but I thought php4 had COM support(?). --min ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Another debate
Uhhh, I have to take exception with this, especially with Cold Fusion. you wrote: >> so where's the additional cost? Upgrades are, after all, >> strictly optional. Nobody says you have to buy them. We have found a very serious bug in CF 4. Allaire's solution, upgrade to 4.5. Even though the bug is also in 4.5. So yes, sometimes companies like Allaire tell you you have to buy the upgrade if you want to keep using the software. - Steve -Original Message- From: Bruce Heerssen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 1:32 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Another debate Sounds like you have a problem on your hands, and it's not with the technology. The problem is illustrated by the last line in your excerpt, "The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point." Sounds like his mind is closed. Not a good thing IMO. You know, the job market still seems pretty good despite the beating dot-coms have taken in the last few months. Hint, hint. If you want to fight this, you might research how much time that the redesigns will take, bearing in mind the need to ramp up on the new technology first. Then compare that with the time that could have been spent working on other projects with your current tool box. Aslo compare the average difference in development time between the two. Think in terms of lost productivity (buzzword alert, good for pointy-hairs). You might also ask him to clarify his position on the lack of security in CF and ask for concrete examples said problems, probably they have been addressed, but the boss doesn't know that because he pays more attention to PHP. As for cost, there is more to consider than the cost of a liscense, among which is development time, performance, and scalability. Overwhelm him with facts and figures, they're hard to dispute. Maybe he'll give in. I wish I could be there to hear him defend his position. Could be entertaining, esp. the part about cost. You already own the necessary liscenses (presumably), so where's the additional cost? Upgrades are, after all, strictly optional. Nobody says you have to buy them. Good luck. -- Bruce > -Original Message- > From: Kelly Shepard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 11:14 AM > To: CF-Talk > Subject: Another debate > > > The new boss has arrived in my department and of course he wants everyone to > switch from the awesome and all mighty cold fusion to PHP. We do need > some other strengths in our department for those clients who don't want us > to host their application or don't have cf on their server, but, he wants a > complete switch. Here is a glimpse into his last email: > > "It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths and > weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not an > option due to cost and security problems. I realize that changing > perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but necessary. > Especially in our industry (high-tech). > > The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point." > > Does anyone have any opinions on his security problems comment? It seems > that alliare is pretty good about getting patches up - or we have just been > lucky and not had any problems. And, would you agree that in the corporate > IT department cf is "usually" not an option? > > Thanks in advance for any input. > > > ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Another debate
I'm a university co-op student at one of the most budget minded companies I have ever seen, and CF was THE option for web development for us. I did research on many different app server platforms and CF came out on top because: #1. CHEAP #2. Extensible into Java/COM/etc #3. Quick to build apps #4. Really nice IDE #2 and #4 are not available in PHP, nor is formal support available either. PHP/Open Source is nice for personal use and companies with lot of IT resources, however in the case of the place I work at, we needed a proven technology and CF was the choice. At 10:14 AM 12/13/00 -0700, Kelly Shepard you wrote: >Does anyone have any opinions on his security problems comment? It seems >that alliare is pretty good about getting patches up - or we have just been >lucky and not had any problems. And, would you agree that in the corporate >IT department cf is "usually" not an option? > >Thanks in advance for any input. -- Michael She I m a g i n e C o m m u n i c a t i o n s Company E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Personal E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ UIN: #243466 Personal Homepage: http://www.michaelshe.com (Under Construction) Imagine Communications: http://www.imagineer.net PGP Fingerprint: 9A24 1DA9 39B8 0A0C C5ED 6E5D 45E9 075A 51CD 66A1 ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Another debate
Here's some ammo for you if the debate suddenly goes "unmoot." ZDNet recently did comparisons of various scripting languages running on Linux and Win platforms. They compared performance, breadth of the API, etc. ColdFusion won hands down, even winning ZDNet's pick over ASP on Win machines. http://www.zdnet.com/enterprise/stories/linux/0,12249,2646052,00.html Hope this helps. I've come across this situations like Kelly's before. Everyone has their "pet" tool, and usually it's the result of them being familiar with that particular tool and unfamiliar with others. Even though I obviously prefer CF, I like to stay open-minded enough that I don't try to argue that CF is the only tool for a job. There are several good middleware tools out there (and a few terrible ones--does anyone remember Lasso?), and the truth is that almost any of them can be used to create a great site. But in most cases there really isn't much reason to make a major switch between one or the other except for developer preference or stubborn-headedness as seems to apply in Kelly's case. Charles Mohnike [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > - Original Message - > > From: Kelly Shepard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: CF-Talk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 12:14 PM > > Subject: Another debate > > > > > > > The new boss has arrived in my department and of course he wants > everyone > > to > > > switch from the awesome and all mighty cold fusion to PHP. We > > > do > need > > > some other strengths in our department for those clients who don't > > > want > us > > > to host their application or don't have cf on their server, but, he > wants > > a > > > complete switch. Here is a glimpse into his last email: > > > > > > "It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths and > > > weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually > > > not > an > > > option due to cost and security problems. I realize that changing > > > perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but necessary. > > > Especially in our industry (high-tech). > > > > > > The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point." > > > > > > Does anyone have any opinions on his security problems comment? It > seems > > > that alliare is pretty good about getting patches up - or we have > > > just > > been > > > lucky and not had any problems. And, would you agree that in the > > corporate > > > IT department cf is "usually" not an option? > > > > > > Thanks in advance for any input. > > > > > > > > > > ~~~ ~~~ > Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at > http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm > > Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf- [EMAIL PROTECTED]/ > Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists > ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Another debate
Call me Machiavellian... but I agree. This guy sounds like he's unknowingly pushing your company off a cliff. Grab the valuables and jump! You might as well get the most out of it you can, considering he's decimating your job security. Switching technologies on existing projects almost never helps the client. David Cummins "Milks, Jim" wrote: > > In my opinion, he heard that the other CTOs on the Golf Course said CF was > "junior" and, heaven forbid, costs money! This is a common problem. Don't > resist. You're skill set will be greatly improved, and he will be > accountable for the longer development times and issues with a great, but > not yet mature technology in PHP. > > Jim > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 12:30 PM > To: CF-Talk > Subject: Re: Another debate > > As long as you write good code and follow all the security notes from the > Allaire security zone, there is no security problem. From the tone and > message of the email, he doesn't really care to hear the truth about it. > To be honest, PHP has its strengths, but its still a script based language > rather than a tag based one which means its slower to write than CF when > integrating into HTML and doing output. Its DB work isn't all to good and > the error handling is almost non-existent. If you look on the PHP site, > there's actually a rather informative comparison of the two on some > features. > If the boss wants to listen and add PHP to your companies skill set, then > I'd agree with him. If he just wants to dump all of the CF stuff for PHP, > then argue with him about it. Bring your proofs and back it up with the fact > that CF is accepted by the corporate industry while PHP isn't (yet). > > > The new boss has arrived in my department and of course he wants everyone > to > > switch from the awesome and all mighty cold fusion to PHP. We do need > > some other strengths in our department for those clients who don't want us > > to host their application or don't have cf on their server, but, he wants > a > > complete switch. Here is a glimpse into his last email: > > > > "It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths and > > weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not an > > option due to cost and security problems. I realize that changing > > perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but necessary. > > Especially in our industry (high-tech). > > > > The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point." > > > > Does anyone have any opinions on his security problems comment? It seems > > that alliare is pretty good about getting patches up - or we have just > been > > lucky and not had any problems. And, would you agree that in the > corporate > > IT department cf is "usually" not an option? > > > > Thanks in advance for any input. ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Another debate
If it's cost he's worried about, he probably isn't aware that CF runs very well on Linux. You can even run a slightly older version of Sybase on Linux for free. At 02:36 PM 12/13/00 -0500, Peter Theobald wrote: >One big difference: in PHP you will have to write database-vendor specific code. The >code to use Sybase is different than SQLServer is different than Oracle, etc. >If portability is important, then that will be a problem. > >At 12:29 PM 12/13/00 -0500, Michael Dinowitz wrote: >>As long as you write good code and follow all the security notes from the >>Allaire security zone, there is no security problem. From the tone and >>message of the email, he doesn't really care to hear the truth about it. >>To be honest, PHP has its strengths, but its still a script based language >>rather than a tag based one which means its slower to write than CF when >>integrating into HTML and doing output. Its DB work isn't all to good and >>the error handling is almost non-existent. If you look on the PHP site, >>there's actually a rather informative comparison of the two on some >>features. >>If the boss wants to listen and add PHP to your companies skill set, then >>I'd agree with him. If he just wants to dump all of the CF stuff for PHP, >>then argue with him about it. Bring your proofs and back it up with the fact >>that CF is accepted by the corporate industry while PHP isn't (yet). >> >> >>> The new boss has arrived in my department and of course he wants everyone >>to >>> switch from the awesome and all mighty cold fusion to PHP. We do need >>> some other strengths in our department for those clients who don't want us >>> to host their application or don't have cf on their server, but, he wants >>a >>> complete switch. Here is a glimpse into his last email: >>> >>> "It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths and >>> weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not an >>> option due to cost and security problems. I realize that changing >>> perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but necessary. >>> Especially in our industry (high-tech). >>> >>> The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point." >>> >>> Does anyone have any opinions on his security problems comment? It seems >>> that alliare is pretty good about getting patches up - or we have just >>been >>> lucky and not had any problems. And, would you agree that in the >>corporate >>> IT department cf is "usually" not an option? >>> >>> Thanks in advance for any input. >>> >>> >>> >> > ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Another debate
Well, you just have to love those "mute points". Actually, my experience is that PHP is not normally an option in the corporate IT department, due to the low cost and (perceived) support problems. Still, it all goes down well on your CV. best of luck, Lee (Bjork) Borkman http://bjork.net ColdFusion Tags by Bjork From: Kelly Shepard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] The new boss has arrived in my department and of course he wants everyone to switch from the awesome and all mighty cold fusion to PHP. Here is a glimpse into his last email: "It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths and weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not an option due to cost and security problems. The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point." IMPORTANT NOTICE: This e-mail and any attachment to it is intended only to be read or used by the named addressee. It is confidential and may contain legally privileged information. No confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost by any mistaken transmission to you. If you receive this e-mail in error, please immediately delete it from your system and notify the sender. You must not disclose, copy or use any part of this e-mail if you are not the intended recipient. The RTA is not responsible for any unauthorised alterations to this e-mail or attachment to it. ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Another debate PHP v CF
The best advice I have seen. Ditto jon - Original Message - From: "Steve Pierce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "CF-Talk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 1:56 PM Subject: RE: Another debate PHP v CF > Kelly, > > your boss wrote: > >> switch from ... cold fusion to PHP. > >> The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point. > > Forget it, your boss said he doesn't want to debate it, he wants to switch > from CF to PHP. Just switch. Look at all the new training classes you will > get to attend learning new skills. It helps you become more marketable and > worth more to the company and to outside companies looking to hire. The > first person to jump on board is going to go to the most classes, get the > best training, the newest books and the best computer. I am not saying be a > suck-up, but if they want PHP, then do PHP. > > You have to look at this as a core value decision. If this is a core value > issue that compromises your ethics, then quit. You can't stay at a company > and violate your core values. > > For example core values would be you believe there is fraud; or the guy is > taking kickbacks from vendors; or there is stock manipulation that is > occurring. If this is happening you have to bail. But if it isn't a core > value issue take it as a new opportunity to make yourself more marketable. > > Cover your ass, write a letter to your boss, and make it a nice one saying > that you think switching from CF may cost the company a lot of money. But > that if he believes switching to PHP is better for the company and will > shorten delivery times of projects, then you support that decision. Keep it > short and to just one page. > > Don't fight it, just do it and move on. Can you imagine a developer that > knows PHP and CF. Pretty good credentials that makes it easier to demand > more money. This is a win for you, don't worry about it. > > - Steve > > Steve Pierce, HDL > "Co-Location starting $99 per month, no setup fee" > (734) 482-9682 | mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://HDL.com > > > > -Original Message- > From: Kelly Shepard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 12:14 PM > To: CF-Talk > Subject: Another debate > > > The new boss has arrived in my department and of course he wants everyone to > switch from the awesome and all mighty cold fusion to PHP. We do need > some other strengths in our department for those clients who don't want us > to host their application or don't have cf on their server, but, he wants a > complete switch. Here is a glimpse into his last email: > > "It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths and > weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not an > option due to cost and security problems. I realize that changing > perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but necessary. > Especially in our industry (high-tech). > > The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point." > > Does anyone have any opinions on his security problems comment? It seems > that alliare is pretty good about getting patches up - or we have just been > lucky and not had any problems. And, would you agree that in the corporate > IT department cf is "usually" not an option? > > Thanks in advance for any input. > ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Another debate
Guys it sounds like the new man is on a mission. Sounds like it may be the head of the company that want the change and have brought him into he the hatch-it man - my 2 cents worth -Original Message- From: Peter Theobald [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, 14 December 2000 5:28 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Another debate In the corporate IT department, PHP is usually less of an option than CF. Also if a "corporate IT department" can't afford CFServer, then they have other problems, like how to run a web site on used Commodore-64s. "The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point." I'd be careful about arguing this. It sounds like he strongly doesn't want to debate the facts, no matter who is right. At 10:14 AM 12/13/00 -0700, Kelly Shepard wrote: >The new boss has arrived in my department and of course he wants everyone to >switch from the awesome and all mighty cold fusion to PHP. We do need >some other strengths in our department for those clients who don't want us >to host their application or don't have cf on their server, but, he wants a >complete switch. Here is a glimpse into his last email: > >"It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths and >weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not an >option due to cost and security problems. I realize that changing >perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but necessary. >Especially in our industry (high-tech). > >The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point." > >Does anyone have any opinions on his security problems comment? It seems >that alliare is pretty good about getting patches up - or we have just been >lucky and not had any problems. And, would you agree that in the corporate >IT department cf is "usually" not an option? > >Thanks in advance for any input. > > > ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Another debate
I would definately take a look at this e-mail about the eWeek article and the eWeek article. You might want to anonymously slip the article on his desk too. A recent issue of E-Week (Oct. 30 2000 Vol. 17 #44) did a comparison of 4 programming languages for the purpose of creating dynamic sites. They tested .cfm, .asp, .jsp and .php applications on similar systems. The jist of the articles is as follows: Speed: CFM - 29 pages/second JSP - 13 pages/second ASP - 43 pages/second PHP - 47 pages/second Grading API, Back-End Connectivity, Cost (Developer Time), Cost (Price), Installation, Performance, Portability and Tools: CFM - 3 A's, 5 B's JSP - 3 A's, 4 C's, 1 D ASP - 2 A's, 4 B's, 1 C, 1 D PHP - 2 A's, 2 B's, 3 C's, 1 D Although the 4 1/2 page reports/articles did well in showing strengths and weaknesses of each item, the overall winner for most productive choice was (no surprise) CFM. Here is a link to PART of the articles. http://www.zdnet.com/eweek/stories/general/0,11011,2646051,00.html The grading is shown here: http://www.zdnet.com/eweek/stories/general/0,11011,2646423,00.html Be sure to look at the other links listed under "In this report". I found it pretty interesting and informative. -Original Message- From: Kelly Shepard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 10:14 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Another debate The new boss has arrived in my department and of course he wants everyone to switch from the awesome and all mighty cold fusion to PHP. We do need some other strengths in our department for those clients who don't want us to host their application or don't have cf on their server, but, he wants a complete switch. Here is a glimpse into his last email: "It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths and weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not an option due to cost and security problems. I realize that changing perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but necessary. Especially in our industry (high-tech). The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point." Does anyone have any opinions on his security problems comment? It seems that alliare is pretty good about getting patches up - or we have just been lucky and not had any problems. And, would you agree that in the corporate IT department cf is "usually" not an option? Thanks in advance for any input. ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Another debate
I know this point doesnt help you except in terms of moral support, but in our parlance, your boss is a DICKHEAD. Sadly, this opens a whole can of worms, because no matter how much you'd like to, it wouldn't be a great career move to go into his office and say "boss all the guys on the CF-Talk list think you're a dickhead." However, if he is so ill-educated in this area of expertise, he'll be ill-informed in other areas too, and his tenure as your boss might be pretty short lived. If this is what you think, your best strategy might be just to keep your head down, mouth shut and wait him out. I employed this strategy myself not all that long ago, and sure enough my boss got his ass kicked out, and lo and behold, we had a ready-made scapegoat for anything that went wrong. "Yeah I know, but that's the way Robert wanted it." Just make sure his name is firmly on all the paperwork for any stupid decisions, so there's plenty of ammunition for his boss to fire him, and plenty of excuses later on if you want them. Think about what this boss wants to do. He's not deciding whether or not to buy ColdFusion. HE ALREADY HAS IT! And he's wanting to throw it out and rebuild the site. His predecessor has already spent most of the investment he's complaining about and he has the expertise he needs already in house. So the only major expense with ColdFusion that would go away under his plan is the maintenance/subscription fees from Allaire. It shouldn't be too hard to show how that cost is far less than you'd pay maintaining a PHP system. Sorry, pal but you're in for a rough ride over the next little while, as your boss either wins this or goes through the anguish of showing the world what a fool he is and getting fired. I've been there - so have many of us - and you have my sympathy. Cheers, Mike Kear Windsor, NSW, Australia. AFP Web Development > The new boss has arrived in my department and of course he > wants everyone to switch from the awesome and all mighty cold > fusion to PHP. We do need some other strengths in our > department for those clients who don't want us to host their > application or don't have cf on their server, but, he wants a > complete switch. Here is a glimpse into his last email: > > "It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths > and weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is > usually not an option due to cost and security problems. I realize > that changing perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, > but necessary. Especially in our industry (high-tech). > > The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point." > > Does anyone have any opinions on his security problems > comment? It seems that alliare is pretty good about getting patches > up - or we have just been lucky and not had any problems. And, > would you agree that in the corporate IT department cf is > "usually" not an option? ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Another debate
Here's some ammo for you if the debate suddenly goes "unmoot." ZDNet recently did comparisons of various scripting languages running on Linux and Win platforms. They compared performance, breadth of the API, etc. ColdFusion won hands down, even winning ZDNet's pick over ASP on Win machines. http://www.zdnet.com/enterprise/stories/linux/0,12249,2646052,00.html Hope this helps. I've come across this situations like Kelly's before. Everyone has their "pet" tool, and usually it's the result of them being familiar with that particular tool and unfamiliar with others. Even though I obviously prefer CF, I like to stay open-minded enough that I don't try to argue that CF is the only tool for a job. There are several good middleware tools out there (and a few terrible ones--does anyone remember Lasso?), and the truth is that almost any of them can be used to create a great site. But in most cases there really isn't much reason to make a major switch between one or the other except for developer preference or stubborn-headedness as seems to apply in Kelly's case. Charles Mohnike [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > - Original Message - > > From: Kelly Shepard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: CF-Talk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 12:14 PM > > Subject: Another debate > > > > > > > The new boss has arrived in my department and of course he wants > everyone > > to > > > switch from the awesome and all mighty cold fusion to PHP. We do > need > > > some other strengths in our department for those clients who don't want > us > > > to host their application or don't have cf on their server, but, he > wants > > a > > > complete switch. Here is a glimpse into his last email: > > > > > > "It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths and > > > weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not > an > > > option due to cost and security problems. I realize that changing > > > perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but necessary. > > > Especially in our industry (high-tech). > > > > > > The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point." > > > > > > Does anyone have any opinions on his security problems comment? It > seems > > > that alliare is pretty good about getting patches up - or we have just > > been > > > lucky and not had any problems. And, would you agree that in the > > corporate > > > IT department cf is "usually" not an option? > > > > > > Thanks in advance for any input. > > > > > > > > > > ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Another debate PHP v CF
Really gotta agree with you Steve. Personally, I disagree with the way the boss is implementing things... however, I think we should all think of ourselves as "web developers" and not "ColdFusion developers" in order to make more money, be better "programmers", and all around more diverse. I've been exposed to several languages, and each has a different way of thinking. For example, VBScript typically is approached and coded differently than CFML. However, I've found that such cross-disciplinary thinking allows me to approach each language differently than is typical for that particular language, and my problem solving skills have increased as a result. It allows me to expand beyond a "(insert language here) disciple" and become a "problem solver implementing solutions ideal for the particular problem at hand". In your shoes, I'd be annoyed. I'd stick with it, learn PHP, and then take advantage of my new toolset... (of course, taking advantage of training just to get a higher paying job elsewhere is a bit unethical, so I by no mean advocate it ;) -- Billy Cravens [EMAIL PROTECTED] Steve Pierce wrote: > > Kelly, > > your boss wrote: > >> switch from ... cold fusion to PHP. > >> The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point. > > Forget it, your boss said he doesn't want to debate it, he wants to switch > from CF to PHP. Just switch. Look at all the new training classes you will > get to attend learning new skills. It helps you become more marketable and > worth more to the company and to outside companies looking to hire. The > first person to jump on board is going to go to the most classes, get the > best training, the newest books and the best computer. I am not saying be a > suck-up, but if they want PHP, then do PHP. > > You have to look at this as a core value decision. If this is a core value > issue that compromises your ethics, then quit. You can't stay at a company > and violate your core values. > > For example core values would be you believe there is fraud; or the guy is > taking kickbacks from vendors; or there is stock manipulation that is > occurring. If this is happening you have to bail. But if it isn't a core > value issue take it as a new opportunity to make yourself more marketable. > > Cover your ass, write a letter to your boss, and make it a nice one saying > that you think switching from CF may cost the company a lot of money. But > that if he believes switching to PHP is better for the company and will > shorten delivery times of projects, then you support that decision. Keep it > short and to just one page. > > Don't fight it, just do it and move on. Can you imagine a developer that > knows PHP and CF. Pretty good credentials that makes it easier to demand > more money. This is a win for you, don't worry about it. > > - Steve > > Steve Pierce, HDL > "Co-Location starting $99 per month, no setup fee" > (734) 482-9682 | mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://HDL.com > > -Original Message- > From: Kelly Shepard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 12:14 PM > To: CF-Talk > Subject: Another debate > > The new boss has arrived in my department and of course he wants everyone to > switch from the awesome and all mighty cold fusion to PHP. We do need > some other strengths in our department for those clients who don't want us > to host their application or don't have cf on their server, but, he wants a > complete switch. Here is a glimpse into his last email: > > "It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths and > weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not an > option due to cost and security problems. I realize that changing > perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but necessary. > Especially in our industry (high-tech). > > The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point." > > Does anyone have any opinions on his security problems comment? It seems > that alliare is pretty good about getting patches up - or we have just been > lucky and not had any problems. And, would you agree that in the corporate > IT department cf is "usually" not an option? > > Thanks in advance for any input. > ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Another debate PHP v CF
[ First off, let me say that I love (love love love) CF, and it's my baby of choice for development (see: http://www.tallylist.com and http://www.spankmag.com). But, here, you really don't have a choice. You can either sit in the mud, complain, and sabotage the change - or you can work with the guy. He has a different point of view, but he was hired to lead the department (that doesn't make him competent, but it does grant him the authority). So it is his view to lead the department forward. What you're looking for is ways to offer suggestions or thoughts that may be receptive to him. Ask about past projects he's been involved with utilizing PHP, or other technologies. Ask about his background in development, if there's interesting things you should be on the lookout for. Ask if he has a vision for 2 to 3 years - where this department may be. Find out where it's going and why before you buck the system. This isn't ass kissing. Ass kissing is rolling over and saying abuse me. What it is though is how to survive transition, how to position yourself during transition, and how to maintain all your options. Plus, maybe the IT department can actually produce product during this phase (in CF or PHP). The person was hired for a reason. So, give that person time. On the other hand - you can question that persons ability by asking about past and future projects and goals - and make evaluations based on those answers. Stephen R. Cassady President, Ububik new media [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.ububik.com <--- from email: ---> "It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths and weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not an option due to cost and security problems. I realize that changing perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but necessary. Especially in our industry (high-tech). The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point." Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Another debate
That kind of attitude is completely lame. How is he going to account for the cost of learning PHP? I would take this opportunity and learn PHP while getting paid for it, and see how the new boss works out. The e-mail doesn't make sense, what does "...some other strengths in our department for those clients who don't want us to host their application or don't have cf on their server..." have to do with "...corporate IT department..."? - Original Message - From: "Gavin Myers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "CF-Talk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 1:26 PM Subject: RE: Another debate > > wow, glad i don't have to deal with e-mails like that > > i think a better question would be, even if cf was shown to be more > scalable, manageable, faster, better for the [insert new fandangled acronym > here] business. Would he take consideration to it? > > Since he did say further discussion of this is pointless > > -Original Message- > From: Kelly Shepard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 11:14 AM > To: CF-Talk > Subject: Another debate > > > The new boss has arrived in my department and of course he wants everyone to > switch from the awesome and all mighty cold fusion to PHP. We do need > some other strengths in our department for those clients who don't want us > to host their application or don't have cf on their server, but, he wants a > complete switch. Here is a glimpse into his last email: > > "It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths and > weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not an > option due to cost and security problems. I realize that changing > perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but necessary. > Especially in our industry (high-tech). > > The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point." > > Does anyone have any opinions on his security problems comment? It seems > that alliare is pretty good about getting patches up - or we have just been > lucky and not had any problems. And, would you agree that in the corporate > IT department cf is "usually" not an option? > > Thanks in advance for any input. > ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Another debate
Above all-out evangelisation, the only thing that could stand up against the IT boss in question is solid facts. Present speed test results, testimonials, and other basically-factual data. Ask him why is it, exactly, that he considers CF a security risk and PHP not one. If the boss is at least somewhat reasonable, he'll at least hear your concerns. If he's completely unresponsive, then it really doesn't reflect well on his ability to manage, does it? -- Jamie Keane Programmer SolutionMasters, Inc. 9111 Monroe Rd., Suite 100 Charlotte, NC 28270 www.solutionmasters.com 704.563.5559 x 228 Voice 704.849.9291 Fax -Original Message- From: Kevin Schmidt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: CF-Talk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 4:47 PM Subject: Re: Another debate >Tell your boss to go out to the garage and use the head puller to pull his >head out of his ass. CF is far above PHP in my mind and why would you want >to tell all of your developers hey forget what you know and learn this new >technology. I could understand if you were all COBOL programmers and wanted >to learn something new but CF is a great technology and as I said far >superior in my mind. > > >- Original Message - >From: "Kevin Schmidt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: "Kevin Schmidt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 12:39 PM >Subject: Fw: Another debate > > >> >> - Original Message - >> From: Kelly Shepard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> To: CF-Talk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 12:14 PM >> Subject: Another debate >> >> >> > The new boss has arrived in my department and of course he wants >everyone >> to >> > switch from the awesome and all mighty cold fusion to PHP. We do >need >> > some other strengths in our department for those clients who don't want >us >> > to host their application or don't have cf on their server, but, he >wants >> a >> > complete switch. Here is a glimpse into his last email: >> > >> > "It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths and >> > weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not >an >> > option due to cost and security problems. I realize that changing >> > perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but necessary. >> > Especially in our industry (high-tech). >> > >> > The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point." >> > >> > Does anyone have any opinions on his security problems comment? It >seems >> > that alliare is pretty good about getting patches up - or we have just >> been >> > lucky and not had any problems. And, would you agree that in the >> corporate >> > IT department cf is "usually" not an option? >> > >> > Thanks in advance for any input. >> > >> > >> > > ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Another debate
Let's just hope that Mr. Boss isn't also reading this list. Bottom line is that this is a tough situation. I had it happen to me where my boss told me to dump CF in favor of ASP. I didn't fight it, but I also wasn't there that much longer either. Dave ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Another debate
At 10:14 AM 12/13/00 -0700, you wrote: >The new boss has arrived in my department and of course he wants everyone to >switch from the awesome and all mighty cold fusion to PHP. We do need >some other strengths in our department for those clients who don't want us >to host their application or don't have cf on their server, but, he wants a >complete switch. Here is a glimpse into his last email: > >"It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths and >weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not an >option due to cost and security problems. I realize that changing >perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but necessary. >Especially in our industry (high-tech). > >The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point." Frankly speaking, your new manager is not open to becoming informed on an issue. If he is this way with CF and states ahead of time that trying to prove him wrong is moot (which is what he means although it's definitely not what he says), he will be this way about other things. If you try to bring up a security issue that he doesn't know of, he won't listen to you. If you find a neat new way to do something, he does not want you to implement it. He has just proven that in his opinion, anything you say is worthless. That is not an attitude that I would take kindly to working under. He has already shown both ignorance and unwillingness to become informed. To be perfectly honest, if I were you I would confront him about his attitude and tell him that if he is unwilling to follow the advice of informed members of his staff that I have no intention of working with him. If he isn't willing to listen to you he does not value you as an employee and you will eventually want to quit (if you don't get fired first). This is a bigger issue than someone being biassed in favor of a certain technology based on incorrect assumptions; this is about someone disrespecting the people who are supposed to do the work he is managing. Of course, I would also quote his letter and tell him that you also realize that changing perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but that his perception of ColdFusion is unfounded and his old habit of pre-emptively ignoring the opinions of an informed staff will cause him to make bad decisions based on incorrect assumptions. I have seen managers get fired for saying things like this and in IT, an attitude like this can hurt a company extremely badly. ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Another debate
First off, let me say that I love (love love love) CF, and it's my baby of choice for development (see: http://www.tallylist.com and http://www.spankmag.com). But, here, you really don't have a choice. You can either sit in the mud, complain, and sabotage the change - or you can work with the guy. He has a different point of view, but he was hired to lead the department (that doesn't make him competent, but it does grant him the authority). So it is his view to lead the department forward. What you're looking for is ways to offer suggestions or thoughts that may be receptive to him. Ask about past projects he's been involved with utilizing PHP, or other technologies. Ask about his background in development, if there's interesting things you should be on the lookout for. Ask if he has a vision for 2 to 3 years - where this department may be. Find out where it's going and why before you buck the system. This isn't ass kissing. Ass kissing is rolling over and saying abuse me. What it is though is how to survive transition, how to position yourself during transition, and how to maintain all your options. Plus, maybe the IT department can actually produce product during this phase (in CF or PHP). The person was hired for a reason. So, give that person time. On the other hand - you can question that persons ability by asking about past and future projects and goals - and make evaluations based on those answers. Stephen R. Cassady President, Ububik new media [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.ububik.com <--- from email: ---> "It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths and weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not an option due to cost and security problems. I realize that changing perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but necessary. Especially in our industry (high-tech). The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point." ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Another debate
robust! (sorry, had to add it) -Original Message- From: Gavin Myers [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 1:26 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Another debate wow, glad i don't have to deal with e-mails like that i think a better question would be, even if cf was shown to be more scalable, manageable, faster, better for the [insert new fandangled acronym here] business. Would he take consideration to it? Since he did say further discussion of this is pointless -Original Message- From: Kelly Shepard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 11:14 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Another debate The new boss has arrived in my department and of course he wants everyone to switch from the awesome and all mighty cold fusion to PHP. We do need some other strengths in our department for those clients who don't want us to host their application or don't have cf on their server, but, he wants a complete switch. Here is a glimpse into his last email: "It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths and weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not an option due to cost and security problems. I realize that changing perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but necessary. Especially in our industry (high-tech). The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point." Does anyone have any opinions on his security problems comment? It seems that alliare is pretty good about getting patches up - or we have just been lucky and not had any problems. And, would you agree that in the corporate IT department cf is "usually" not an option? Thanks in advance for any input. ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Another debate
I think this may be a Freudian slip: he really does mean "mute" -- as in "I don't want to talk about it; my mind's already made up." Hal Helms == See www.ColdFusionTraining.com for info on "Best Practices with ColdFusion & Fusebox" training, Jan 22-25 == -Original Message- From: Braver, Ben: [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 1:02 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: RE: Another debate Well, for one thing, your boss needs to brush up on his English, and learn the difference between "mute" and "moot" > -Original Message- > From: Kelly Shepard [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 9:14 AM > To: CF-Talk > Subject: Another debate > > The new boss has arrived in my department and of course he wants everyone > to > switch from the awesome and all mighty cold fusion to PHP. We do need > some other strengths in our department for those clients who don't want us > to host their application or don't have cf on their server, but, he wants > a > complete switch. Here is a glimpse into his last email: > > "It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths and > weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not an > option due to cost and security problems. I realize that changing > perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but necessary. > Especially in our industry (high-tech). > > The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point." > > Does anyone have any opinions on his security problems comment? It seems > that alliare is pretty good about getting patches up - or we have just > been > lucky and not had any problems. And, would you agree that in the > corporate > IT department cf is "usually" not an option? > > Thanks in advance for any input. > > > ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Another debate
who cares, just ask for a raise, 4 Christmas bonuses, and free parking - All for learning PHP. It's not your company anyways, it's your [insert ignorant here] boss's -Original Message- From: Kevin Schmidt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 1:48 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Another debate Tell your boss to go out to the garage and use the head puller to pull his head out of his ass. CF is far above PHP in my mind and why would you want to tell all of your developers hey forget what you know and learn this new technology. I could understand if you were all COBOL programmers and wanted to learn something new but CF is a great technology and as I said far superior in my mind. - Original Message - From: "Kevin Schmidt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Kevin Schmidt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 12:39 PM Subject: Fw: Another debate > > - Original Message - > From: Kelly Shepard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: CF-Talk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 12:14 PM > Subject: Another debate > > > > The new boss has arrived in my department and of course he wants everyone > to > > switch from the awesome and all mighty cold fusion to PHP. We do need > > some other strengths in our department for those clients who don't want us > > to host their application or don't have cf on their server, but, he wants > a > > complete switch. Here is a glimpse into his last email: > > > > "It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths and > > weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not an > > option due to cost and security problems. I realize that changing > > perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but necessary. > > Especially in our industry (high-tech). > > > > The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point." > > > > Does anyone have any opinions on his security problems comment? It seems > > that alliare is pretty good about getting patches up - or we have just > been > > lucky and not had any problems. And, would you agree that in the > corporate > > IT department cf is "usually" not an option? > > > > Thanks in advance for any input. > > > > > > ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Another debate
Your new boss obviously doesn't worry about development time since he chooses PHP over CF, and the points about security issues is FR out. Obviously your new boss need some professional (mental) help! Allan Pichler Machine Dreams Inc. -Original Message- From: Kelly Shepard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 9:14 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Another debate The new boss has arrived in my department and of course he wants everyone to switch from the awesome and all mighty cold fusion to PHP. We do need some other strengths in our department for those clients who don't want us to host their application or don't have cf on their server, but, he wants a complete switch. Here is a glimpse into his last email: "It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths and weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not an option due to cost and security problems. I realize that changing perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but necessary. Especially in our industry (high-tech). The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point." Does anyone have any opinions on his security problems comment? It seems that alliare is pretty good about getting patches up - or we have just been lucky and not had any problems. And, would you agree that in the corporate IT department cf is "usually" not an option? Thanks in advance for any input. ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Another debate
One big difference: in PHP you will have to write database-vendor specific code. The code to use Sybase is different than SQLServer is different than Oracle, etc. If portability is important, then that will be a problem. At 12:29 PM 12/13/00 -0500, Michael Dinowitz wrote: >As long as you write good code and follow all the security notes from the >Allaire security zone, there is no security problem. From the tone and >message of the email, he doesn't really care to hear the truth about it. >To be honest, PHP has its strengths, but its still a script based language >rather than a tag based one which means its slower to write than CF when >integrating into HTML and doing output. Its DB work isn't all to good and >the error handling is almost non-existent. If you look on the PHP site, >there's actually a rather informative comparison of the two on some >features. >If the boss wants to listen and add PHP to your companies skill set, then >I'd agree with him. If he just wants to dump all of the CF stuff for PHP, >then argue with him about it. Bring your proofs and back it up with the fact >that CF is accepted by the corporate industry while PHP isn't (yet). > > >> The new boss has arrived in my department and of course he wants everyone >to >> switch from the awesome and all mighty cold fusion to PHP. We do need >> some other strengths in our department for those clients who don't want us >> to host their application or don't have cf on their server, but, he wants >a >> complete switch. Here is a glimpse into his last email: >> >> "It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths and >> weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not an >> option due to cost and security problems. I realize that changing >> perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but necessary. >> Especially in our industry (high-tech). >> >> The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point." >> >> Does anyone have any opinions on his security problems comment? It seems >> that alliare is pretty good about getting patches up - or we have just >been >> lucky and not had any problems. And, would you agree that in the >corporate >> IT department cf is "usually" not an option? >> >> Thanks in advance for any input. >> >> >> > ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Another debate - absolute rubbish.
Most "security issue" in ColdFusion are problems with IIS not ColdFusion or problems in standard security. There have been a couple of exceptions (the Expression Evaluator and samples mostly), but most are not the fault of CF. If he is comparing PHP on Unix to CF on NT, it's not really a fair comparison, is it? As for cost. The cost of a few days extra time programming nearly covers the application. Why don't you ask him about these security issues??? What are they ? Is he talking about webserver or system security? Or CF ? And before I get into a flame war here, I do use PHP ,and Perl, C/C++, Java (JRun is great BTW )and CF others , NT and *nix. I prefer do prefer PHP for some stuff (can't wait for cfscript to get better ), and with Zope it's very fast but CF is cool too, and I've been using it since CF V1.5ish with success. Why stop now? ~J >>However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not an >> option due to cost and security problems. I realize that changing >> perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but necessary. >> Especially in our industry (high-tech). >> >> The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point." ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Another debate
> The new boss has arrived in my department and of course he wants > everyone to > switch from the awesome and all mighty cold fusion to PHP. We do need > some other strengths in our department for those clients who don't want us > to host their application or don't have cf on their server, but, > he wants a > complete switch. Here is a glimpse into his last email: > > "It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths and > weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not an > option due to cost and security problems. I realize that changing > perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but necessary. > Especially in our industry (high-tech). > > The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point." > > Does anyone have any opinions on his security problems comment? He sounds like a real piece of work. Tell him that until he learns how to spell "moot" that he shouldn't be making middleware recommendations. :) -ron ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Another debate
I'm currently going through the same thing, except my new IT director's pushing for ASP and Java... ick... If he'd suggest PHP, I'd be all for it since I know PHP intimately, (and personally prefer it over CF, but that's strictly my opinion) - Original Message - From: "Michael Dinowitz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "CF-Talk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 10:29 AM Subject: Re: Another debate > As long as you write good code and follow all the security notes from the > Allaire security zone, there is no security problem. From the tone and > message of the email, he doesn't really care to hear the truth about it. > To be honest, PHP has its strengths, but its still a script based language > rather than a tag based one which means its slower to write than CF when > integrating into HTML and doing output. Its DB work isn't all to good and > the error handling is almost non-existent. If you look on the PHP site, > there's actually a rather informative comparison of the two on some > features. > If the boss wants to listen and add PHP to your companies skill set, then > I'd agree with him. If he just wants to dump all of the CF stuff for PHP, > then argue with him about it. Bring your proofs and back it up with the fact > that CF is accepted by the corporate industry while PHP isn't (yet). > > > > The new boss has arrived in my department and of course he wants everyone > to > > switch from the awesome and all mighty cold fusion to PHP. We do need > > some other strengths in our department for those clients who don't want us > > to host their application or don't have cf on their server, but, he wants > a > > complete switch. Here is a glimpse into his last email: > > > > "It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths and > > weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not an > > option due to cost and security problems. I realize that changing > > perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but necessary. > > Especially in our industry (high-tech). > > > > The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point." > > > > Does anyone have any opinions on his security problems comment? It seems > > that alliare is pretty good about getting patches up - or we have just > been > > lucky and not had any problems. And, would you agree that in the > corporate > > IT department cf is "usually" not an option? > > > > Thanks in advance for any input. > > > > > > > ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Another debate
Well, the two are really different critters. It could be said that PHP is more secure since it is open source, therefore flaws can, in theory, be discovered (and hopefully patched) quicker. As for other discussion along the lines of "CF is a better platform because it's easier to write in", it really depends on your style of programming. If you're most comfortable dealing with logical pseudo-extensions to an HTML-style programming system, of course CF is for you. It's tag-based to ease the transition between static HTML and dynamically-generated templates. PHP, OTOH, is very reminiscent of Perl, so if your department is strong in Perl you'll love PHP. The down side of PHP is its fairly non-existant error handling capabilities and lack of DB abstraction. You will have to be familiar with different function sets to use different DBs. If you're a non-programmer, it is a bit trickier to learn, since you'll have to work with creating file pointers and whatnot on occasion. And PHP doesn't include Verity or any other nifty toys, so you're on your own. On the plus side, PHP currently supports user-defined functions, which makes for very structured, elegant code. I haven't tried out PHP's session support, however, so I can't comment on that. Chances are, though, that CF has a better implementation, though, simply because CF has had session support longer. Also, what web server/OS are you running? That's also a big part of the picture, and arguably more important than the application server you're using. Jamie (best tool for the job, et cetera, et cetera) -- Jamie Keane Programmer SolutionMasters, Inc. 9111 Monroe Rd., Suite 100 Charlotte, NC 28270 www.solutionmasters.com 704.563.5559 x 228 Voice 704.849.9291 Fax -Original Message- From: Kelly Shepard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: CF-Talk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 1:04 PM Subject: Another debate >The new boss has arrived in my department and of course he wants everyone to >switch from the awesome and all mighty cold fusion to PHP. We do need >some other strengths in our department for those clients who don't want us >to host their application or don't have cf on their server, but, he wants a >complete switch. Here is a glimpse into his last email: > >"It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths and >weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not an >option due to cost and security problems. I realize that changing >perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but necessary. >Especially in our industry (high-tech). > >The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point." > >Does anyone have any opinions on his security problems comment? It seems >that alliare is pretty good about getting patches up - or we have just been >lucky and not had any problems. And, would you agree that in the corporate >IT department cf is "usually" not an option? > >Thanks in advance for any input. > > > ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Another debate PHP v CF
Kelly, your boss wrote: >> switch from ... cold fusion to PHP. >> The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point. Forget it, your boss said he doesn't want to debate it, he wants to switch from CF to PHP. Just switch. Look at all the new training classes you will get to attend learning new skills. It helps you become more marketable and worth more to the company and to outside companies looking to hire. The first person to jump on board is going to go to the most classes, get the best training, the newest books and the best computer. I am not saying be a suck-up, but if they want PHP, then do PHP. You have to look at this as a core value decision. If this is a core value issue that compromises your ethics, then quit. You can't stay at a company and violate your core values. For example core values would be you believe there is fraud; or the guy is taking kickbacks from vendors; or there is stock manipulation that is occurring. If this is happening you have to bail. But if it isn't a core value issue take it as a new opportunity to make yourself more marketable. Cover your ass, write a letter to your boss, and make it a nice one saying that you think switching from CF may cost the company a lot of money. But that if he believes switching to PHP is better for the company and will shorten delivery times of projects, then you support that decision. Keep it short and to just one page. Don't fight it, just do it and move on. Can you imagine a developer that knows PHP and CF. Pretty good credentials that makes it easier to demand more money. This is a win for you, don't worry about it. - Steve Steve Pierce, HDL "Co-Location starting $99 per month, no setup fee" (734) 482-9682 | mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://HDL.com -Original Message- From: Kelly Shepard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 12:14 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Another debate The new boss has arrived in my department and of course he wants everyone to switch from the awesome and all mighty cold fusion to PHP. We do need some other strengths in our department for those clients who don't want us to host their application or don't have cf on their server, but, he wants a complete switch. Here is a glimpse into his last email: "It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths and weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not an option due to cost and security problems. I realize that changing perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but necessary. Especially in our industry (high-tech). The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point." Does anyone have any opinions on his security problems comment? It seems that alliare is pretty good about getting patches up - or we have just been lucky and not had any problems. And, would you agree that in the corporate IT department cf is "usually" not an option? Thanks in advance for any input. ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Another debate
> The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point." Ouch. Does he/she mean "moot" point perhaps? I feel for you. - Sean Sean Daniels Manager, Engineering Marketplace Technologies (t) 207.439.6030 (c) 207.332.6340 http://www.dealforce.com http://www.dealstream.com http://www.mergernetwork.com ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Another debate
In my opinion, he heard that the other CTOs on the Golf Course said CF was "junior" and, heaven forbid, costs money! This is a common problem. Don't resist. You're skill set will be greatly improved, and he will be accountable for the longer development times and issues with a great, but not yet mature technology in PHP. Jim -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 12:30 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: Another debate As long as you write good code and follow all the security notes from the Allaire security zone, there is no security problem. From the tone and message of the email, he doesn't really care to hear the truth about it. To be honest, PHP has its strengths, but its still a script based language rather than a tag based one which means its slower to write than CF when integrating into HTML and doing output. Its DB work isn't all to good and the error handling is almost non-existent. If you look on the PHP site, there's actually a rather informative comparison of the two on some features. If the boss wants to listen and add PHP to your companies skill set, then I'd agree with him. If he just wants to dump all of the CF stuff for PHP, then argue with him about it. Bring your proofs and back it up with the fact that CF is accepted by the corporate industry while PHP isn't (yet). > The new boss has arrived in my department and of course he wants everyone to > switch from the awesome and all mighty cold fusion to PHP. We do need > some other strengths in our department for those clients who don't want us > to host their application or don't have cf on their server, but, he wants a > complete switch. Here is a glimpse into his last email: > > "It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths and > weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not an > option due to cost and security problems. I realize that changing > perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but necessary. > Especially in our industry (high-tech). > > The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point." > > Does anyone have any opinions on his security problems comment? It seems > that alliare is pretty good about getting patches up - or we have just been > lucky and not had any problems. And, would you agree that in the corporate > IT department cf is "usually" not an option? > > Thanks in advance for any input. > > > ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Another debate
Sound like your "new boss" hasn't ever used CF, or bothered to even research the validity of his claims. PHP is a good addition to your skillset, but throwing out all the CF experience and knowledge in your department and forcing everyone to start at square one with learning PHP is not a smart decision at all. I would say the same, by the way, about anyone who came into an all PHP department and said the same about instantly and unilaterally switching to CF for all projects. I really don't have the whole story, and don't know your situation, but depending on the rest of the big picture, I'd quietly start putting together a resume just in case you need it. I would consider what you describe as a bad omen and indicative of a dicator style of management. While you're at it, maybe your whole department should start speaking French rather than English... Yeah that's just as stupid... -Cameron Cameron Childress ElliptIQ Inc. p.770.460.7277.232 f.770.460.0963 > -Original Message- > From: Kelly Shepard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 12:14 PM > To: CF-Talk > Subject: Another debate > > > The new boss has arrived in my department and of course he wants > everyone to > switch from the awesome and all mighty cold fusion to PHP. We do need > some other strengths in our department for those clients who don't want us > to host their application or don't have cf on their server, but, > he wants a > complete switch. Here is a glimpse into his last email: > > "It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths and > weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not an > option due to cost and security problems. I realize that changing > perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but necessary. > Especially in our industry (high-tech). > > The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point." > > Does anyone have any opinions on his security problems comment? It seems > that alliare is pretty good about getting patches up - or we have > just been > lucky and not had any problems. And, would you agree that in the > corporate > IT department cf is "usually" not an option? > > Thanks in advance for any input. > > > ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Another debate
Tell your boss to go out to the garage and use the head puller to pull his head out of his ass. CF is far above PHP in my mind and why would you want to tell all of your developers hey forget what you know and learn this new technology. I could understand if you were all COBOL programmers and wanted to learn something new but CF is a great technology and as I said far superior in my mind. - Original Message - From: "Kevin Schmidt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Kevin Schmidt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 12:39 PM Subject: Fw: Another debate > > - Original Message - > From: Kelly Shepard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: CF-Talk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 12:14 PM > Subject: Another debate > > > > The new boss has arrived in my department and of course he wants everyone > to > > switch from the awesome and all mighty cold fusion to PHP. We do need > > some other strengths in our department for those clients who don't want us > > to host their application or don't have cf on their server, but, he wants > a > > complete switch. Here is a glimpse into his last email: > > > > "It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths and > > weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not an > > option due to cost and security problems. I realize that changing > > perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but necessary. > > Especially in our industry (high-tech). > > > > The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point." > > > > Does anyone have any opinions on his security problems comment? It seems > > that alliare is pretty good about getting patches up - or we have just > been > > lucky and not had any problems. And, would you agree that in the > corporate > > IT department cf is "usually" not an option? > > > > Thanks in advance for any input. > > > > > > ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Another debate
In the corporate IT department, PHP is usually less of an option than CF. Also if a "corporate IT department" can't afford CFServer, then they have other problems, like how to run a web site on used Commodore-64s. "The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point." I'd be careful about arguing this. It sounds like he strongly doesn't want to debate the facts, no matter who is right. At 10:14 AM 12/13/00 -0700, Kelly Shepard wrote: >The new boss has arrived in my department and of course he wants everyone to >switch from the awesome and all mighty cold fusion to PHP. We do need >some other strengths in our department for those clients who don't want us >to host their application or don't have cf on their server, but, he wants a >complete switch. Here is a glimpse into his last email: > >"It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths and >weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not an >option due to cost and security problems. I realize that changing >perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but necessary. >Especially in our industry (high-tech). > >The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point." > >Does anyone have any opinions on his security problems comment? It seems >that alliare is pretty good about getting patches up - or we have just been >lucky and not had any problems. And, would you agree that in the corporate >IT department cf is "usually" not an option? > >Thanks in advance for any input. > > > ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Another debate
Sounds like you have a problem on your hands, and it's not with the technology. The problem is illustrated by the last line in your excerpt, "The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point." Sounds like his mind is closed. Not a good thing IMO. You know, the job market still seems pretty good despite the beating dot-coms have taken in the last few months. Hint, hint. If you want to fight this, you might research how much time that the redesigns will take, bearing in mind the need to ramp up on the new technology first. Then compare that with the time that could have been spent working on other projects with your current tool box. Aslo compare the average difference in development time between the two. Think in terms of lost productivity (buzzword alert, good for pointy-hairs). You might also ask him to clarify his position on the lack of security in CF and ask for concrete examples said problems, probably they have been addressed, but the boss doesn't know that because he pays more attention to PHP. As for cost, there is more to consider than the cost of a liscense, among which is development time, performance, and scalability. Overwhelm him with facts and figures, they're hard to dispute. Maybe he'll give in. I wish I could be there to hear him defend his position. Could be entertaining, esp. the part about cost. You already own the necessary liscenses (presumably), so where's the additional cost? Upgrades are, after all, strictly optional. Nobody says you have to buy them. Good luck. -- Bruce > -Original Message- > From: Kelly Shepard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 11:14 AM > To: CF-Talk > Subject: Another debate > > > The new boss has arrived in my department and of course he wants everyone to > switch from the awesome and all mighty cold fusion to PHP. We do need > some other strengths in our department for those clients who don't want us > to host their application or don't have cf on their server, but, he wants a > complete switch. Here is a glimpse into his last email: > > "It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths and > weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not an > option due to cost and security problems. I realize that changing > perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but necessary. > Especially in our industry (high-tech). > > The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point." > > Does anyone have any opinions on his security problems comment? It seems > that alliare is pretty good about getting patches up - or we have just been > lucky and not had any problems. And, would you agree that in the corporate > IT department cf is "usually" not an option? > > Thanks in advance for any input. > > > ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Another debate
Further more, re-coding any app entails its own set of problems 1) First we retrain an entire IT dept in PHP (or sicker still, lay them off and hire newbies in a veteran dept.) 2) Now we turn these newbies loose and say (ok, convert your expert, well written CF Apps, into the PHP language we barely know in this dept.) I picture this as taking a well running Toyota Camry, and replacing its engine with that of a Ford Pinto... This amounts to IT suicide, frankly I wonder if this decision is mostly politically motivated rather than sound judgement. I would fight this to the last man or suffer the consequences. Gregory Harris Web Developer Stirling Bridge Group LLC - Original Message - From: "Kelly Shepard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "CF-Talk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 9:14 AM Subject: Another debate > The new boss has arrived in my department and of course he wants everyone to > switch from the awesome and all mighty cold fusion to PHP. We do need > some other strengths in our department for those clients who don't want us > to host their application or don't have cf on their server, but, he wants a > complete switch. Here is a glimpse into his last email: > > "It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths and > weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not an > option due to cost and security problems. I realize that changing > perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but necessary. > Especially in our industry (high-tech). > > The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point." > > Does anyone have any opinions on his security problems comment? It seems > that alliare is pretty good about getting patches up - or we have just been > lucky and not had any problems. And, would you agree that in the corporate > IT department cf is "usually" not an option? > > Thanks in advance for any input. > > > ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Another debate
> The new boss has arrived in my department and of course he > wants everyone to switch from the awesome and all mighty cold > fusion to PHP. We do need some other strengths in our > department for those clients who don't want us to host their > application or don't have cf on their server, but, he wants a > complete switch. Here is a glimpse into his last email: > > "It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths > and weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is > usually not an option due to cost and security problems. I realize > that changing perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, > but necessary. Especially in our industry (high-tech). > > The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point." > > Does anyone have any opinions on his security problems > comment? It seems that alliare is pretty good about getting patches > up - or we have just been lucky and not had any problems. And, > would you agree that in the corporate IT department cf is > "usually" not an option? There are no significant security problems that are CF-specific, as long as you don't deploy the sample code on your servers. There are lots of security problems with CF applications, caused by the failure of developers to filter input from the browser. Those problems exist with PHP applications, and ASP applications, and any other kind of web applications. Most of the security problems that Allaire notifies people about are actually IIS security problems, as far as I can tell. As for CF's availability within corporate IT, I'd guess that it's much more accepted than PHP, at least "officially". Most IT directors are a bit leery of using open-source solutions. They like to have someone to call when things go wrong. PHP is nice, though, and kind of fun, but it's a bit more difficult than CF, and for most business applications doesn't offer anything that CF doesn't. As a bit of trivia, PHP used to be quite often referred to as the "poor man's Cold Fusion" back when it stood for "Personal Home Page". On an unrelated note, it's "moot point", not "mute point". Finally, I'm sorry to hear that this is what your new boss is like. It's always sad to see things like this - it would be just as bad if you were all using PHP and he came in and said "we're switching everything to CF". You might be able to reason with him, but in my experience there's usually nothing you can do with these types. Good luck, though. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ voice: (202) 797-5496 fax: (202) 797-5444 ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Another debate
Read Greg's Rules of web development, I'll start with the just created rule #1: "Security is not the program in as much as the people who are using the program" also: "what you get is what you pay for" IMHO Cold Fusion delivers an easy to use, yet powerful development platform. At a fairly decent price tag. When you are programming in cold fusion, it is always good practice to consider the implications of what you are doing, and plan accordingly. For instance, if you are using CFFILE to use an upload, consider it suicide to use CFEXECUTE right after it on the same file(that's the quickest example I can think of). However you get the idea. Your mind must at all times be thinking "what could a user do, if I programmed this?" and you'll never have a problem with security. Lots of programming lanugages in their time have had bugs documented, some of them security related. I'm not sure about PHP's track record, but I'm sure that it's not perfect either. Remember PHP is also a relative newcomer to the scene of enterprise application development, and its security is not quite proven yet. In short, be Gregory Harris Web Developer Stirling Bridge Group LLC - Original Message - From: "Kelly Shepard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "CF-Talk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 9:14 AM Subject: Another debate > The new boss has arrived in my department and of course he wants everyone to > switch from the awesome and all mighty cold fusion to PHP. We do need > some other strengths in our department for those clients who don't want us > to host their application or don't have cf on their server, but, he wants a > complete switch. Here is a glimpse into his last email: > > "It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths and > weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not an > option due to cost and security problems. I realize that changing > perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but necessary. > Especially in our industry (high-tech). > > The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point." > > Does anyone have any opinions on his security problems comment? It seems > that alliare is pretty good about getting patches up - or we have just been > lucky and not had any problems. And, would you agree that in the corporate > IT department cf is "usually" not an option? > > Thanks in advance for any input. > > > ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Another debate
PHP is pretty good, but the comments about security problems with CF specifically I disagree with. I've used CF since Jan 96. I've built high traffic shopping carts as well as mission-critical intranet/extranet types of applications with very sensitive data. I was at autobytel.com for just under 2 years. In my experience, network security has been by far the paramount issue. I've never had a CF-related security issue. And I think I've avoided most by following Allaire's security bulletin suggestions. As far as I know (and I could be wrong) PHP is "open". Who will you get support from? I've only had to use it once in my "CF career" but at least you can call Allaire who won't charge unless the problem is resolved. The cost of good software and service is nothing compared to the cost of losing business over poorly planned technology choices. Good luck. -Original Message- From: Kelly Shepard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 9:14 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Another debate The new boss has arrived in my department and of course he wants everyone to switch from the awesome and all mighty cold fusion to PHP. We do need some other strengths in our department for those clients who don't want us to host their application or don't have cf on their server, but, he wants a complete switch. Here is a glimpse into his last email: "It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths and weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not an option due to cost and security problems. I realize that changing perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but necessary. Especially in our industry (high-tech). The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point." Does anyone have any opinions on his security problems comment? It seems that alliare is pretty good about getting patches up - or we have just been lucky and not had any problems. And, would you agree that in the corporate IT department cf is "usually" not an option? Thanks in advance for any input. ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Another debate
wow, glad i don't have to deal with e-mails like that i think a better question would be, even if cf was shown to be more scalable, manageable, faster, better for the [insert new fandangled acronym here] business. Would he take consideration to it? Since he did say further discussion of this is pointless -Original Message- From: Kelly Shepard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 11:14 AM To: CF-Talk Subject: Another debate The new boss has arrived in my department and of course he wants everyone to switch from the awesome and all mighty cold fusion to PHP. We do need some other strengths in our department for those clients who don't want us to host their application or don't have cf on their server, but, he wants a complete switch. Here is a glimpse into his last email: "It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths and weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not an option due to cost and security problems. I realize that changing perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but necessary. Especially in our industry (high-tech). The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point." Does anyone have any opinions on his security problems comment? It seems that alliare is pretty good about getting patches up - or we have just been lucky and not had any problems. And, would you agree that in the corporate IT department cf is "usually" not an option? Thanks in advance for any input. ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Another debate
Well, for one thing, your boss needs to brush up on his English, and learn the difference between "mute" and "moot" > -Original Message- > From: Kelly Shepard [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 9:14 AM > To: CF-Talk > Subject: Another debate > > The new boss has arrived in my department and of course he wants everyone > to > switch from the awesome and all mighty cold fusion to PHP. We do need > some other strengths in our department for those clients who don't want us > to host their application or don't have cf on their server, but, he wants > a > complete switch. Here is a glimpse into his last email: > > "It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths and > weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not an > option due to cost and security problems. I realize that changing > perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but necessary. > Especially in our industry (high-tech). > > The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point." > > Does anyone have any opinions on his security problems comment? It seems > that alliare is pretty good about getting patches up - or we have just > been > lucky and not had any problems. And, would you agree that in the > corporate > IT department cf is "usually" not an option? > > Thanks in advance for any input. > > > ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Another debate
Dimple his Chad & Demand a hand count Steve > > Thanks in advance for any input. ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Another debate
I think the security probelsm lie more in Microsoft's IIS and the NT OS than the CF Server. Allaire always sends out alerts about security updates even if they are not for CF Servers, but something that relates to CF. PHP is a neat language, however it still isn't developed enough and also the learning curve is enough for your boss to be considered a complete and total moron. If he wants to make his whole company spend a few months learning PHP and converting all exsisting apps to PHP, tell him to go for it. Also, I dont think that the database connectivity is as powerful. Greg. ps. if he starts to ramble on about php and mysql tell him just because you read webmonkey doesnt mean it should applied, especially in a corporate environment. I see PHP and MySQL as more of a home user solution. - Original Message - From: "Kelly Shepard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "CF-Talk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 12:14 PM Subject: Another debate > The new boss has arrived in my department and of course he wants everyone to > switch from the awesome and all mighty cold fusion to PHP. We do need > some other strengths in our department for those clients who don't want us > to host their application or don't have cf on their server, but, he wants a > complete switch. Here is a glimpse into his last email: > > "It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths and > weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not an > option due to cost and security problems. I realize that changing > perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but necessary. > Especially in our industry (high-tech). > > The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point." > > Does anyone have any opinions on his security problems comment? It seems > that alliare is pretty good about getting patches up - or we have just been > lucky and not had any problems. And, would you agree that in the corporate > IT department cf is "usually" not an option? > > Thanks in advance for any input. > > > ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Another debate
Sounds like - if your not inclined to get on the PHP bandwagon - its time to polish the ol resume' - Original Message - From: "Kelly Shepard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "CF-Talk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2000 9:14 AM Subject: Another debate > The new boss has arrived in my department and of course he wants everyone to > switch from the awesome and all mighty cold fusion to PHP. We do need > some other strengths in our department for those clients who don't want us > to host their application or don't have cf on their server, but, he wants a > complete switch. Here is a glimpse into his last email: > > "It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths and > weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not an > option due to cost and security problems. I realize that changing > perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but necessary. > Especially in our industry (high-tech). > > The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point." > > Does anyone have any opinions on his security problems comment? It seems > that alliare is pretty good about getting patches up - or we have just been > lucky and not had any problems. And, would you agree that in the corporate > IT department cf is "usually" not an option? > > Thanks in advance for any input. > > > ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
RE: Another debate
The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute (<---should be moot) point. I don't really have any suggestions other than it sounds like he might have dealt with PHP before, and therefore is prejudiced against CF. You and I know that it is plenty secure. Plenty of corporations are serving cold fusion pages to run their Intranets, Extranets and secure e-commerce applications. ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
Re: Another debate
As long as you write good code and follow all the security notes from the Allaire security zone, there is no security problem. From the tone and message of the email, he doesn't really care to hear the truth about it. To be honest, PHP has its strengths, but its still a script based language rather than a tag based one which means its slower to write than CF when integrating into HTML and doing output. Its DB work isn't all to good and the error handling is almost non-existent. If you look on the PHP site, there's actually a rather informative comparison of the two on some features. If the boss wants to listen and add PHP to your companies skill set, then I'd agree with him. If he just wants to dump all of the CF stuff for PHP, then argue with him about it. Bring your proofs and back it up with the fact that CF is accepted by the corporate industry while PHP isn't (yet). > The new boss has arrived in my department and of course he wants everyone to > switch from the awesome and all mighty cold fusion to PHP. We do need > some other strengths in our department for those clients who don't want us > to host their application or don't have cf on their server, but, he wants a > complete switch. Here is a glimpse into his last email: > > "It could be argued that both technologies have their strengths and > weaknesses. However, in the corporate IT department, CF is usually not an > option due to cost and security problems. I realize that changing > perceptions and old habits are sometimes difficult, but necessary. > Especially in our industry (high-tech). > > The need to deliberate the issue further is a mute point." > > Does anyone have any opinions on his security problems comment? It seems > that alliare is pretty good about getting patches up - or we have just been > lucky and not had any problems. And, would you agree that in the corporate > IT department cf is "usually" not an option? > > Thanks in advance for any input. > > > ~~ Structure your ColdFusion code with Fusebox. Get the official book at http://www.fusionauthority.com/bkinfo.cfm Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/cf-talk@houseoffusion.com/ Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists
