Re: need an opinion
> > >Beyond whether or not you have creativity, there are specific > skills > > and > > >knowledge specific to design that you (and the rest of us) are > > unlikely to > > >possess without training in that field. This is why we hire > > competent > > >designers, rather than doing design work for which we're > unqualified, > > in the > > >same way that we hire lawyers and accountants for their specific > > knowledge > > >rather than doing that work ourselves. > > it depends what your job is or what stage your business is at. i > suspect your not working for a big company or do not yet have a big > company as otherwise you would have hired someone to do it. > > therefore i say keep going, you may not have as much knowledge as a > skilled designer but being a 'jack-of-all-trades' is required in the > beginning and does help later on when your business starts to grow. > > i admire that you ask people's opinion and actually take constructive > critism very well. keep taking the critisms and learning as we > learn the most from them > > saying that.. yes i agree that the letters are positioned wrong, and > depends what context it is in. the logo needs to imply business, > technology and value in the image not the letters. totally agree that > at the moment it has a community feel. > > good luck Thank you for your kindness. Yes, I'm no longer with big corporate world, am living in sort of small town America now, and it looks like it would take longer than I thought to gain local acceptance, hence, I try to limit expense while trying to make some small step forward... If I miss some follow-up, just want you all to know that I truly appreciate it, this community is indeed very helpful... ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;192386516;25150098;k Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:303542 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: need an opinion
>> My apology for OT. Need an opinion, when you see the following icon, >> http://24.254.1.94:8000/test/logo_idea.bmp >> what do you make of it? Also, it's boring, clearly I lack creativity. > >One of the keys to doing competent work without talent is to know your >limitations. Doing plain, boring - but usable, clean work is enough to look >better than the vast majority of "design work" out there. Nobody will >mistake you for a professional designer, of course, but neither will you >embarrass yourself. ;^) > >That said the letters here are meaningless to me - for an icon you shouldn?t >need letters, and if you DO need them then get rid of the graphic and use >them. They're small and difficult to read. They also spoil the balance of >the image - turning it from a nice, soft rectangle into a rather sharp >pyramid. > >The image itself is okay - perhaps a little too detailed for an icon. You >rarely see more than two objects in an icon and this one has six. It also >seems like you might be trying to indicate inclusiveness or diversity, but >that might be better done with abstracts (even something as simple as >multi-colored spheres or shapes) rather than actual people. > >Icons thrive on cliché - it's kind of counter-intuitive but REALLY creative >icons are rarely understood because most people aren't that creative. ;^) > >If this is a "signature" icon then you'll need to be unique and brand it >appropriately, but for general application/website icons boring is best. >Some are easy: "Print", "Save", "Home", etc. Some are too abstract and so >you have to do your best and reinforce the image. For "community" the >silhouette of several people, hands clasped, etc are all pretty clear. > >Sorry for lecturing. It's really NOT at all a bad graphic - it's not a >great icon, but it's not an embarrassing one either. ;^) It's incredibly >really hard to judge icons in isolation in any case - it's only really fair >to judge them in a complete iconography with context. > >Jim Davis Appreciate that you took time, formulated thoughts and sharing insights on this. I'm totally open to more options and rigorous examination. ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;192386516;25150098;k Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:303540 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: need an opinion
>There is an issue of context. Following your description of the 'icon', >I would think that this icon is for a product itself. Not a functionary >icon, like 'print' or 'save', but rather an icon meant to start a >specific application. In that context, then the 'icon' is generally not >really an icon at all, but rather a scaled down representation of the >application's (or company's) logo. > >Now this gets tricky. I know (from a job I had in the past, outside of >web development) a little about branding. Establishing a 'brand' is >heavy business, and should never be taken lightly. As an example, what >image do you think of when you think of Nike? You think of the Nike >swoosh. Even without the word 'Nike', you see the swoosh and you know >that it's Nike. It's on every item they produce. It's on every tag. It's >even the favicon that shows up when you load all of their sites. You can >apply this with most any major software as well. Think Windows, Mac, >AOL. From an image/icon/logo standpoint I bet you connected those dots >without thought. (Incidentally, this is one area where ColdFusion has >lost out, as a brand, since Allaire was bought.) > >For this, I side with Dave. If this icon/logo is to be attached to >something that should come back favorably to you and your work (be that >in revenue, word of mouth, work you want associated with you as a >developer...) then you should seriously consider hiring a designer to >create a professional logo. Create a brand identity. It's not your >personal creativity at question, but the value you are attempting to >create, build and portray. > >Steve "Cutter" Blades >Adobe Certified Professional >Advanced Macromedia ColdFusion MX 7 Developer >_ Somehow, my response hasn't shown up. So, I'm re-writing my reply. Man, you're TALKING. Very thoughtful. Thank you. ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;192386516;25150098;k Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:303539 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: need an opinion
> -Original Message- > From: Don L [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 4:14 PM > To: CF-Talk > Subject: OT: need an opinion > > My apology for OT. Need an opinion, when you see the following icon, > http://24.254.1.94:8000/test/logo_idea.bmp > what do you make of it? Also, it's boring, clearly I lack creativity. One of the keys to doing competent work without talent is to know your limitations. Doing plain, boring - but usable, clean work is enough to look better than the vast majority of "design work" out there. Nobody will mistake you for a professional designer, of course, but neither will you embarrass yourself. ;^) That said the letters here are meaningless to me - for an icon you shouldnt need letters, and if you DO need them then get rid of the graphic and use them. They're small and difficult to read. They also spoil the balance of the image - turning it from a nice, soft rectangle into a rather sharp pyramid. The image itself is okay - perhaps a little too detailed for an icon. You rarely see more than two objects in an icon and this one has six. It also seems like you might be trying to indicate inclusiveness or diversity, but that might be better done with abstracts (even something as simple as multi-colored spheres or shapes) rather than actual people. Icons thrive on cliché - it's kind of counter-intuitive but REALLY creative icons are rarely understood because most people aren't that creative. ;^) If this is a "signature" icon then you'll need to be unique and brand it appropriately, but for general application/website icons boring is best. Some are easy: "Print", "Save", "Home", etc. Some are too abstract and so you have to do your best and reinforce the image. For "community" the silhouette of several people, hands clasped, etc are all pretty clear. Sorry for lecturing. It's really NOT at all a bad graphic - it's not a great icon, but it's not an embarrassing one either. ;^) It's incredibly really hard to judge icons in isolation in any case - it's only really fair to judge them in a complete iconography with context. Jim Davis ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;192386516;25150098;k Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:303535 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: need an opinion
> >Beyond whether or not you have creativity, there are specific skills > and > >knowledge specific to design that you (and the rest of us) are > unlikely to > >possess without training in that field. This is why we hire > competent > >designers, rather than doing design work for which we're unqualified, > in the > >same way that we hire lawyers and accountants for their specific > knowledge > >rather than doing that work ourselves. it depends what your job is or what stage your business is at. i suspect your not working for a big company or do not yet have a big company as otherwise you would have hired someone to do it. therefore i say keep going, you may not have as much knowledge as a skilled designer but being a 'jack-of-all-trades' is required in the beginning and does help later on when your business starts to grow. i admire that you ask people's opinion and actually take constructive critism very well. keep taking the critisms and learning as we learn the most from them saying that.. yes i agree that the letters are positioned wrong, and depends what context it is in. the logo needs to imply business, technology and value in the image not the letters. totally agree that at the moment it has a community feel. good luck ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;192386516;25150098;k Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:303534 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: need an opinion
>put the letters in the faces > >are you starting a cult? there aren't enough these days... >-that's my opinion Yeah, let's get it started :) ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;192386516;25150098;k Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:303524 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: need an opinion
>There is an issue of context. Following your description of the 'icon', >I would think that this icon is for a product itself. Not a functionary >icon, like 'print' or 'save', but rather an icon meant to start a >specific application. In that context, then the 'icon' is generally not >really an icon at all, but rather a scaled down representation of the >application's (or company's) logo. > >Now this gets tricky. I know (from a job I had in the past, outside of >web development) a little about branding. Establishing a 'brand' is >heavy business, and should never be taken lightly. As an example, what >image do you think of when you think of Nike? You think of the Nike >swoosh. Even without the word 'Nike', you see the swoosh and you know >that it's Nike. It's on every item they produce. It's on every tag. It's >even the favicon that shows up when you load all of their sites. You can >apply this with most any major software as well. Think Windows, Mac, >AOL. From an image/icon/logo standpoint I bet you connected those dots >without thought. (Incidentally, this is one area where ColdFusion has >lost out, as a brand, since Allaire was bought.) > >For this, I side with Dave. If this icon/logo is to be attached to >something that should come back favorably to you and your work (be that >in revenue, word of mouth, work you want associated with you as a >developer...) then you should seriously consider hiring a designer to >create a professional logo. Create a brand identity. It's not your >personal creativity at question, but the value you are attempting to >create, build and portray. > >Steve "Cutter" Blades >Adobe Certified Professional >Advanced Macromedia ColdFusion MX 7 Developer >_ >http://blog.cutterscrossing.com Man, you're TALKING. Thoughtful. Thank you, and I wasn't thinking... ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;192386516;25150098;k Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:303523 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: need an opinion
True, but the "context" can be a whole culture, within which certain symbols are universally understood - as in eg. the heart for love. On its own, Don's "family" grouping might mean community service, family counselling, adoption agency, even latter-day saints, and as you rightly said, needs to be seen in context. As someone with zero design skills, I feel Don's pain. And kind of agree with Dave W. Hand it over to someone with the training. -Original Message- From: Ian Skinner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 4:09 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: Re: need an opinion Don L wrote: >> Well, if we're supposed to know what BTV is or does from looking at the >> logo, I can't. >> > > Thanks for your input, Dave. Don I just wanted to add that I also did not understand the 'B' 'T' 'V'. But it is important to note that there is NO such thing as an icon which has meaning with no context. ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;192386516;25150098;k Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:303498 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: need an opinion
>> My apology for OT. Need an opinion, when you see the >> following icon, http://24.254.1.94:8000/test/logo_idea.bmp >> what do you make of it? Also, it's boring, clearly I lack >> creativity. > >Beyond whether or not you have creativity, there are specific skills and >knowledge specific to design that you (and the rest of us) are unlikely to >possess without training in that field. This is why we hire competent >designers, rather than doing design work for which we're unqualified, in the >same way that we hire lawyers and accountants for their specific knowledge >rather than doing that work ourselves. > >Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software >http://www.figleaf.com/ Opinion of one type, and I respect it too, thanks. And yes, if it were quite a bit of graphics work, I wouldn't even try it. ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;192386516;25150098;k Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:303494 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: need an opinion
Don L wrote: >> Well, if we're supposed to know what BTV is or does from looking at the >> logo, I can't. >> > > Thanks for your input, Dave. Don I just wanted to add that I also did not understand the 'B' 'T' 'V'. But it is important to note that there is NO such thing as an icon which has meaning with no context. ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;192386516;25150098;k Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:303491 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
RE: need an opinion
> My apology for OT. Need an opinion, when you see the > following icon, http://24.254.1.94:8000/test/logo_idea.bmp > what do you make of it? Also, it's boring, clearly I lack > creativity. Beyond whether or not you have creativity, there are specific skills and knowledge specific to design that you (and the rest of us) are unlikely to possess without training in that field. This is why we hire competent designers, rather than doing design work for which we're unqualified, in the same way that we hire lawyers and accountants for their specific knowledge rather than doing that work ourselves. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Training: Adobe/Google/Paperthin Certified Partners http://training.figleaf.com/ WebManiacs 2008: the ultimate conference for CF/Flex/AIR developers! http://www.webmaniacsconference.com/ ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;192386516;25150098;k Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:303490 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: need an opinion
>Well, if we're supposed to know what BTV is or does from looking at the >logo, I can't. Thanks for your input, Dave. Don ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;192386516;25150098;k Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:303489 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
Re: need an opinion
>Reminds me of the windows 'User Account' icon... faceless diversity. > >.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:. >Bobby Hartsfield >http://acoderslife.com >http://cf4em.com Bobby, diversity wasn't something was my mind but rather PEOPLE (the general sense). But thanks for your thought on the 'faceless' part; so, it could come across wrong way (the person has an attitude or the sort). Don ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;192386516;25150098;k Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:303486 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: need an opinion
Reminds me of the windows 'User Account' icon... faceless diversity. ..:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:.:. Bobby Hartsfield http://acoderslife.com http://cf4em.com -Original Message- From: Don L [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 4:14 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: OT: need an opinion My apology for OT. Need an opinion, when you see the following icon, http://24.254.1.94:8000/test/logo_idea.bmp what do you make of it? Also, it's boring, clearly I lack creativity. Thanks. ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;192386516;25150098;k Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:303484 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: need an opinion
> Don-- > > Honestly, I don't think it's bad at all. If I came across it, I would > be confused about the meaning of "B T V", but would probably assume > that the icon represented something to do with "community" or > something similar to that. > > My $.02~ Hey Joel, thank you for your thought. I knew it :) The idea was, T for technology, B for business, and V for Value; using Technology to provide/generate Business Value; at the center of all this, is PEOPLE. People first. But at the moment, I simply couldn't come up with any creativity, it's too plain. ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;192386516;25150098;k Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:303482 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
RE: need an opinion
Well, if we're supposed to know what BTV is or does from looking at the logo, I can't. -Original Message- From: Don L [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 3:14 PM To: CF-Talk Subject: OT: need an opinion My apology for OT. Need an opinion, when you see the following icon, http://24.254.1.94:8000/test/logo_idea.bmp what do you make of it? Also, it's boring, clearly I lack creativity. Thanks. ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;192386516;25150098;k Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:303480 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=89.70.4
Re: need an opinion
Don-- Honestly, I don't think it's bad at all. If I came across it, I would be confused about the meaning of "B T V", but would probably assume that the icon represented something to do with "community" or something similar to that. My $.02~ >My apology for OT. Need an opinion, when you see the following icon, >http://24.254.1.94:8000/test/logo_idea.bmp >what do you make of it? Also, it's boring, clearly I lack creativity. > >Thanks. ~| Adobe® ColdFusion® 8 software 8 is the most important and dramatic release to date Get the Free Trial http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;192386516;25150098;k Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/message.cfm/messageid:303478 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/CF-Talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/cf_lists/unsubscribe.cfm?user=11502.10531.4
