Re: [Chevelle-list] starter starter wiring
Excellent summary. Hope that it stays fixed.I know all about working in the NY rainbut I'm trying to forget. On 11/18/07, John Nasta [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, the MAD/Summit wiring technique worked. I now have 10ga wire going from the battery to the cabin from the cabin to the Ford solenoid. I also have new 4ga battery cables w/ factory ends, and the jumper is made of 10ga wire w/ a lug on the solenoid end and wrapped around the post on the BAT end. Starts like a champ. I had to leave the lock washer off of the BAT post in favor of getting more threads on the post. The thickness of the wire w/o a lug is a reason in itself for the metal plate that comes w/ the kit. I also had to aim the BAT cable at 9:00 to make it pass clearly under the x-man for it's turn back toward the firewall. The 38 Battery to solenoid cable is too short. I have to pull it tight to reach the firewall. I want to get something 6 inches or so longer for that (when it's not raining). The 40 lower cable is just about the right length, taking into consideration enough length to drop the starter and work on it, but also not sloppy and all over the place when it is tucked away. So, to do it yourself you need: 44 bat to solenoid cable (about $10) 40 sol to starter cable (about $10) Ford Solenoid $13.00 About 2 of 10ga wire lug (for jumper) and most people will probably will probably use the S wire from their current harness (which would reach the firewall location nicely), but to bypass the ignition circuit like I have and do it all w/ 10ga, you need about 4' of 10ga wire to go from the solenoid into the cabin, and I used one of those wires that runs from the battery to the heater w/ the female fuse holder on it to run from the battery to the cabin. Now the key has to be on and then I just short the two 10ga wires together to activate the solenoid. Keep in mind that if you do this you are also bypassing the neutral safety switch. I am doing this because my S lead to the starter is always hot when the key is in the run position. I have always assumed that this is probably due to a bad ignition switch, or maybe the previous owner did some funky wiring to bypass the neutral safety switch, because there was a BM shifter in it when I got it. I have since put the shift lever back on the column where it belongs. Hopefully this is the last time I will have to take a starter out of this car for a long time. Thanks everybody for pointing me in the right direction w/ the wiring. John -- Rick Schaefer 72 TPI El Camino
Re: [Chevelle-list] starter starter wiring
Thanks Rick, I have that shim diagram saved to my HD, but I may not see wear patterns on a starter that is only a couple of weeks old. Also, I have never heard of needing shims causing it to start fine time after time and then one day just not turn the engine over at all. I have all my own wiring going to the starter, so there are no fusible links anywhere. Up 'til now I have had 14ga wire going to the solenoid, so I'm changing that to 10ga. It may be that the new battery cables will allow more amperage to get to the starter because it seems like the solenoid always works. Even when I thought it was heat related I could hear the solenoid working but the starter motor doesn't turn. My biggest problem w/ the mini-starter idea is that I live in an area where the car has to be moved twice a week in order not to get a parking ticket, so when this happens I have to fix it quickly and don't have time for mail order. This has to be fixed out in the street (NYC) and it always has to be a rainy day, so I'm usually trying to get it over with as quickly as possible. I don't know of any places that can bench test a starter under load. Most of them just hook power to it and see if the solenoid works if the bendix gear shoots out spins w/ no load on it. I can do that myself. I can hear the gear hitting the flexplate, so I know all of that is working. I'll also check tomorrow for a short possibly draining the battery since it no longer seems to be heat related, and if it doesn't turn w/ the new wiring I'll try jumping it. Maybe it's a new problem producing results that are similar to the old problem, but in any case it seems like the solenoid is working but the starter motor is not getting enough juice. John Quoting Rick Schaefer [EMAIL PROTECTED]: John When I bought a hi-torque starter directly from a real rebuilder he gave me an instruction sheet that was virtually identical to this: http://macc.chevelles.net/starter.htm It tells how to install shims it worked perfectly for me. Are you having the starter bench checked once its removed? Sounds like you've replaced near everything. Also its been a long time since I looked at mine, but isn't there a fusible link in one of the wires down at the solenoid On 11/17/07, John Nasta [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I went out to start the El Camino today for the first time in a few days and the starter was dead again. No heat problem this time. Just deadness. I bought the newer style (round) F-type solenoid. It's a bit tricky to get it in there if you mount to where the RH cylinder head ground straps connects to the firewall. I had to have the BAT S wires point straight up w/ the S terminal at 9:00, and the M wire aiming at about 7:30 to follow the shape of the bell housing. You basically have to make sure that you're not jamming the solenoid into the distributor cap and that you don't have any wires rubbing against the tranny filler tube or anything hot. I have a 10ga wire going directly from the battery into the cabin another 10ga wire w/ a lug soldered on the solenoid end going from the cabin to the new solenoid. I also have a 10ga wire w/ a lug on one end that I will use to jumper the old solenoid. On the big BAT post I just plan to wrap the wire around the post and use a washer on top of it to hold it there. The lug is for the smaller terminal. All connections are crimped and soldered, and wrapped in electrical tape. The 38 BAT cable that I bought is BARELY long enough and should really be longer than that. Can't vouch for the fit of the lower cable yet but I'll let you know. I couldn't finish b/c it got dark. Of course tomorrow it's supposed to rain. I hope it starts with this trick because this is getting ridiculous. I'd say I've used this newest starter less than 10 times and it no longer seems to be a heat-related problem because the car was dead cold today. It either starts just fine or not at all and replacing the starter always seems to fix it for a while, but those whiles are getting shorter and shorter. The battery is only three months old. I have a couple of shims but putting them in would be total guesswork since I have never used them before w/ this car and the starter is probably too new to show wear patterns on the bendix gear. I'll let you know how it goes tomorrow. John -- Rick Schaefer 72 TPI El Camino
Re: [Chevelle-list] starter starter wiring
Well, the MAD/Summit wiring technique worked. I now have 10ga wire going from the battery to the cabin from the cabin to the Ford solenoid. I also have new 4ga battery cables w/ factory ends, and the jumper is made of 10ga wire w/ a lug on the solenoid end and wrapped around the post on the BAT end. Starts like a champ. I had to leave the lock washer off of the BAT post in favor of getting more threads on the post. The thickness of the wire w/o a lug is a reason in itself for the metal plate that comes w/ the kit. I also had to aim the BAT cable at 9:00 to make it pass clearly under the x-man for it's turn back toward the firewall. The 38 Battery to solenoid cable is too short. I have to pull it tight to reach the firewall. I want to get something 6 inches or so longer for that (when it's not raining). The 40 lower cable is just about the right length, taking into consideration enough length to drop the starter and work on it, but also not sloppy and all over the place when it is tucked away. So, to do it yourself you need: 44 bat to solenoid cable (about $10) 40 sol to starter cable (about $10) Ford Solenoid $13.00 About 2 of 10ga wire lug (for jumper) and most people will probably will probably use the S wire from their current harness (which would reach the firewall location nicely), but to bypass the ignition circuit like I have and do it all w/ 10ga, you need about 4' of 10ga wire to go from the solenoid into the cabin, and I used one of those wires that runs from the battery to the heater w/ the female fuse holder on it to run from the battery to the cabin. Now the key has to be on and then I just short the two 10ga wires together to activate the solenoid. Keep in mind that if you do this you are also bypassing the neutral safety switch. I am doing this because my S lead to the starter is always hot when the key is in the run position. I have always assumed that this is probably due to a bad ignition switch, or maybe the previous owner did some funky wiring to bypass the neutral safety switch, because there was a BM shifter in it when I got it. I have since put the shift lever back on the column where it belongs. Hopefully this is the last time I will have to take a starter out of this car for a long time. Thanks everybody for pointing me in the right direction w/ the wiring. John
Re: [Chevelle-list] starter starter wiring
I went out to start the El Camino today for the first time in a few days and the starter was dead again. No heat problem this time. Just deadness. I bought the newer style (round) F-type solenoid. It's a bit tricky to get it in there if you mount to where the RH cylinder head ground straps connects to the firewall. I had to have the BAT S wires point straight up w/ the S terminal at 9:00, and the M wire aiming at about 7:30 to follow the shape of the bell housing. You basically have to make sure that you're not jamming the solenoid into the distributor cap and that you don't have any wires rubbing against the tranny filler tube or anything hot. I have a 10ga wire going directly from the battery into the cabin another 10ga wire w/ a lug soldered on the solenoid end going from the cabin to the new solenoid. I also have a 10ga wire w/ a lug on one end that I will use to jumper the old solenoid. On the big BAT post I just plan to wrap the wire around the post and use a washer on top of it to hold it there. The lug is for the smaller terminal. All connections are crimped and soldered, and wrapped in electrical tape. The 38 BAT cable that I bought is BARELY long enough and should really be longer than that. Can't vouch for the fit of the lower cable yet but I'll let you know. I couldn't finish b/c it got dark. Of course tomorrow it's supposed to rain. I hope it starts with this trick because this is getting ridiculous. I'd say I've used this newest starter less than 10 times and it no longer seems to be a heat-related problem because the car was dead cold today. It either starts just fine or not at all and replacing the starter always seems to fix it for a while, but those whiles are getting shorter and shorter. The battery is only three months old. I have a couple of shims but putting them in would be total guesswork since I have never used them before w/ this car and the starter is probably too new to show wear patterns on the bendix gear. I'll let you know how it goes tomorrow. John
Re: [Chevelle-list] starter starter wiring
John When I bought a hi-torque starter directly from a real rebuilder he gave me an instruction sheet that was virtually identical to this: http://macc.chevelles.net/starter.htm It tells how to install shims it worked perfectly for me. Are you having the starter bench checked once its removed? Sounds like you've replaced near everything. Also its been a long time since I looked at mine, but isn't there a fusible link in one of the wires down at the solenoid On 11/17/07, John Nasta [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I went out to start the El Camino today for the first time in a few days and the starter was dead again. No heat problem this time. Just deadness. I bought the newer style (round) F-type solenoid. It's a bit tricky to get it in there if you mount to where the RH cylinder head ground straps connects to the firewall. I had to have the BAT S wires point straight up w/ the S terminal at 9:00, and the M wire aiming at about 7:30 to follow the shape of the bell housing. You basically have to make sure that you're not jamming the solenoid into the distributor cap and that you don't have any wires rubbing against the tranny filler tube or anything hot. I have a 10ga wire going directly from the battery into the cabin another 10ga wire w/ a lug soldered on the solenoid end going from the cabin to the new solenoid. I also have a 10ga wire w/ a lug on one end that I will use to jumper the old solenoid. On the big BAT post I just plan to wrap the wire around the post and use a washer on top of it to hold it there. The lug is for the smaller terminal. All connections are crimped and soldered, and wrapped in electrical tape. The 38 BAT cable that I bought is BARELY long enough and should really be longer than that. Can't vouch for the fit of the lower cable yet but I'll let you know. I couldn't finish b/c it got dark. Of course tomorrow it's supposed to rain. I hope it starts with this trick because this is getting ridiculous. I'd say I've used this newest starter less than 10 times and it no longer seems to be a heat-related problem because the car was dead cold today. It either starts just fine or not at all and replacing the starter always seems to fix it for a while, but those whiles are getting shorter and shorter. The battery is only three months old. I have a couple of shims but putting them in would be total guesswork since I have never used them before w/ this car and the starter is probably too new to show wear patterns on the bendix gear. I'll let you know how it goes tomorrow. John -- Rick Schaefer 72 TPI El Camino
Re: [Chevelle-list] starter starter wiring
I just checked a couple of local stores and it seems that if you want to make your own kit for the Summit/MAD type Ford solenoid wiring you will need: Battery to solenoid solenoid to starter cables, about $8 - $10 each for 4 gauge cable w/ factory ends. I happened to have a brand new 38 cable that looks like it will just about make it from the battery to the firewall. I bought a 40 cable to go from the starter to the solenoid b/c I'm not sure how it will work out w/ the routing. I'll let you all know if these lengths work out ok. Ford V8 (LTD) solenoid - $15 to $16. Seems like it could easily mount on the same firewall bolt as the ground strap to the pass-side head bolts to. 14 gauge and 12 (heck, make it 10) gauge wires: about $4 for a small spool of each. However, w/ the solenoid on the firewall there's no reason why your original small wire(s) would not reach the solenoid directly, so you don't really need the 14 gauge wire, you just need the jumper wire, which should be the beefiest that you can get on there. Some lugs for your jumper wire, which should be soldered on. So, you could end up spending up to $45 to get all the parts locally if you need absolutely everything, but if you don't need the bat to sol cable and the S wire, that knocks about $15 off of it. The MAD/Summit kit is actually a good deal for the price, except that you end up re-using your original battery cable (which is longer than you need for this application), and you end up making your own sol to starter cable instead of having a nice 4-gauge factory-made cable. I'm going the home-made route since all I needed was the solenoid and the new solenoid to starter cable. I probably won't get to actually do this today but I'll let you all know how it goes. JN
Re: [Chevelle-list] starter starter wiring
One quickly realizes that by the time you have lugs big enough to fit your 10 or 12 gauge wire, they are long enough to touch each other, so your wire has to be a bit of a loop (which you can aim downward away from the heat). Also, you need a pretty big lug to get over the BAT terminal. I may have to just worry about the right size lug for the wire and cut the terminal end to get it to fit on the BAT terminal. These may be more reasons for the metal jumper bracket. I'll have to see what my options are for bracket material at the hardware store.
Re: [Chevelle-list] starter starter wiring
John, For the little jumper that connects the two lugs on the block mounted starter, instead of using a piece of heavy wire, get a small piece of steel and drill the necessary holes and trim/cut/file the piece to the desired shape. The MAD kit includes a piece like I described for this purpose but of course with a little effort you can make your own. Herb -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Nasta Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2007 2:29 PM To: chevelle-list@chevelles.net Subject: Re: [Chevelle-list] starter starter wiring I just checked a couple of local stores and it seems that if you want to make your own kit for the Summit/MAD type Ford solenoid wiring you will need: Battery to solenoid solenoid to starter cables, about $8 - $10 each for 4 gauge cable w/ factory ends. I happened to have a brand new 38 cable that looks like it will just about make it from the battery to the firewall. I bought a 40 cable to go from the starter to the solenoid b/c I'm not sure how it will work out w/ the routing. I'll let you all know if these lengths work out ok. Ford V8 (LTD) solenoid - $15 to $16. Seems like it could easily mount on the same firewall bolt as the ground strap to the pass-side head bolts to. 14 gauge and 12 (heck, make it 10) gauge wires: about $4 for a small spool of each. However, w/ the solenoid on the firewall there's no reason why your original small wire(s) would not reach the solenoid directly, so you don't really need the 14 gauge wire, you just need the jumper wire, which should be the beefiest that you can get on there. Some lugs for your jumper wire, which should be soldered on. So, you could end up spending up to $45 to get all the parts locally if you need absolutely everything, but if you don't need the bat to sol cable and the S wire, that knocks about $15 off of it. The MAD/Summit kit is actually a good deal for the price, except that you end up re-using your original battery cable (which is longer than you need for this application), and you end up making your own sol to starter cable instead of having a nice 4-gauge factory-made cable. I'm going the home-made route since all I needed was the solenoid and the new solenoid to starter cable. I probably won't get to actually do this today but I'll let you all know how it goes. JN
Re: [Chevelle-list] starter starter wiring
Thanks Herb, I can agree that it's better not to have solder connections down there, and maybe the metal bracket can withstand or dissipate the heat better. I need to see if the hardware store has some convenient material to make a jumper bracket out of, and I probably don't have a 3/8 drill bit. Otherwise I'm going w/ 10-gauge wire. Keep in mind that Summit charges over $10 to ship their kit, and you don't end up w/ nice neat 4 gauge cables w/ factory ends. I just hope this works. I have always had hot start problems w/ this car. Otherwise it's mini-starter time. John Quoting Herb Lumpp [EMAIL PROTECTED]: John, For the little jumper that connects the two lugs on the block mounted starter, instead of using a piece of heavy wire, get a small piece of steel and drill the necessary holes and trim/cut/file the piece to the desired shape. The MAD kit includes a piece like I described for this purpose but of course with a little effort you can make your own. Herb
Re: [Chevelle-list] starter starter wiring
If you don't have a 3/8 drill bit, you should probably get one for this project and future projects as well. If you look at the upper right hand corner in the picture on this link, you'll see the jumper. It's pretty simple and I think it will be easy to duplicate... http://www.madelectrical.com/catalog/st-1.shtml ...and I'm sure it will be more durable than a wire jumper over the long haul. Herb -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Nasta Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2007 6:28 PM To: chevelle-list@chevelles.net Subject: Re: [Chevelle-list] starter starter wiring Thanks Herb, I can agree that it's better not to have solder connections down there, and maybe the metal bracket can withstand or dissipate the heat better. I need to see if the hardware store has some convenient material to make a jumper bracket out of, and I probably don't have a 3/8 drill bit. Otherwise I'm going w/ 10-gauge wire. Keep in mind that Summit charges over $10 to ship their kit, and you don't end up w/ nice neat 4 gauge cables w/ factory ends. I just hope this works. I have always had hot start problems w/ this car. Otherwise it's mini-starter time. John Quoting Herb Lumpp [EMAIL PROTECTED]: John, For the little jumper that connects the two lugs on the block mounted starter, instead of using a piece of heavy wire, get a small piece of steel and drill the necessary holes and trim/cut/file the piece to the desired shape. The MAD kit includes a piece like I described for this purpose but of course with a little effort you can make your own. Herb
Re: [Chevelle-list] starter starter wiring
Thanks Bill, I will order a heat shield for now and will probably eventually switch to a mini-starter. I need to see if my block is drilled for the straight bolt pattern or only the offset pattern. It seems like at least some of the mini-starters are only available for the straight pattern and my current starter is offset. I'm not convinced that the Ford solenoid does anything except prevent the small wire(s) from getting burned when hooked up the Summit/MAD way. When hooked up as shown on the Nova sites, you still have a small wire going to the starter, so it doesn't even do that. Either way your original solenoid still has to work in order for the remote solenoid to work, otherwise you are just passing current to a switched point where the switch is dead. John Quoting Bill Bradley [EMAIL PROTECTED]: John I've had the same problem in the past, I installed a solenoid heat shield, it fixed the problem for me, may work for you too. good luck and pray for good weather! Bill
Re: [Chevelle-list] starter starter wiring
Hi Dale, Thanks for the links and please understand that I was not trying to criticize you. All I'm saying is that with either wiring method, the original solenoid still has to work. Otherwise you are just passing current to a switched point where the switch is dead. The Nova sites' method really accomplishes nothing, because all the first solenoid does is pass the current along as if you had it hooked up the old way. So, you pass 12V to the BAT and S terminals on the starter, and if you're lucky your starter will work as normal after that. With the Summit/MAD way, you at least eliminate the small wire(s) at the starter. Those wires often get burned and they are another thing to deal with from under the car when changing a starter. With the Summit/MAD way, you jumper from the BAT terminal to the S terminal on the starter so that as soon as current is passed to the BAT terminal it also goes to the S, but w/o as much length of small-gauge wire. As we know, DC current doesn't travel well over long thin wires. Also with this method, the large battery cable from the solenoid to the starter is dead unless the solenoid is activated. This is kind of nice because if your large cable does burn, at least you don't short out the battery (until the next time you try to start it). Also you can drop the starter w/o disconnecting the positive battery-to-solenoid cable, which is one less thing to have to do when changing a starter. With either method, the original solenoid still has to work though. This statement from MAD: The problem occurs because the large solenoid on the GM starter draws 40 to 50 amps at the moment the key is turned to START. And that large amount of current must flow through a very lengthy circuit, from the battery to the dash area. Through dash wiring and switches, back out through the under-hood wiring, finally to the starter. is not true. The whole point of the solenoid is that it is an electromagnetic switch. The switch itself draws much less current than the starter motor. The switch is also not electrically connected to the starter motor. That is why it can be serviced via a smaller wire. A small amount of current goes from the battery, through the ignition switch and the neutral safety switch to activate the electromagnet in the solenoid, which closes the circuit to allow the 12V that is coming through the big cable to get to the starter motor. That large amount of current does not travel through the dash. If it did, you would need a cable as fat as your battery cable passing through your dash, and you would need heavy duty ignition neutral safety switches. You also would not need the fat cable going directly from the battery to the starter. The only thing that passes through the dash is the small amount of current that it takes to operate the solenoid (switch). I see no benefit from the Nova sites' method. The MAD/Summit way at least cuts down on the length of small-gauge wire and keeps that wire away from the heat. It also makes the big lead to the BAT terminal dead unless the solenoid is activated, which can be handy. Remember that either way, the solenoid on the starter has to work. Otherwise you are just passing current to an open switch. The MAD kit comes w/ a small plate to jumper the BAT S terminals, which may conduct more amperage or be less susceptible to heat than wire. There is a limit to what size wire you can get to fit on those small terminals. HTH, John
Re: [Chevelle-list] starter starter wiring
See, that's what makes the world go round.? Everybody is different that's OK!? 58, 59, 60 would be my bottem three with the 58, being in my opinion the ugliest.? Even though I've seen some nicely done in all three years do admire them.? I don't even want to hear about the 52-54's.? I'm sure there are some lovers out there also.? I guess it just depends on what you remember as a kid.? This KID is 59.? ??? Phil G. 65 SS -Original Message- From: Rich Pruett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: The Chevelle Mailing List chevelle-list@chevelles.net Sent: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 4:30 pm Subject: Re: [Chevelle-list] starter starter wiring To me, the three prettiest years running for Chevy was '58, '59 and '60. ? -- Original message -- From: John Nasta [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yeah, I wish he still had it. I saw a white '59 coupe in Marin County CA about a year ago under a carport with enough dust dirt on it to be obvious that it hasn't been driven in years. I was so tempted to knock on their door and ask about it... Quoting Rich Pruett : I'll take that '59 off your dad's hands! Email and AIM finally together. You've gotta check out free AOL Mail! - http://mail.aol.com
Re: [Chevelle-list] starter starter wiring
No problem, John. Black-and-white words don't convey inflections or emotions attached as everyone well knows. Like I noted, once you get past the Off/On function, my electrical skills go downhill pretty fast. LOL. I know both solenoids still must be in a functioning capacity but my take on the Ford solenoid 'solution' is to take some burden off the GM one in a hot start situation. I draw an analogy similar to using relays to energize headlamps, electric fans/fuel pumps, etc. where the end item still has to be able to function and it's a matter of how the energy gets there to make it function. It's all pretty much Greek to me and there are numerous solutions to the hot start problem. I used the Summit kit for a couple of reasons other than the hot start problem. One, I could 'bump' the engine over with a bumper switch by using the connections on the remote solenoid and two, I wired the R terminal connection to a junction block so I could disconnect it at the block instead of on the GM solenoid whenever I needed to drop the starter; the battery cable was easy enough to get to to take off/on when working on the starter but the R post was tight and my running it to a junction block I could leave it on the GM solenoid all the time and simply disconnect/connect it at the junction block when needed. Dale McIntosh ChevelleCD.com ChevelleStuff.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Nasta Sent: Sunday, October 28, 2007 10:08 AM To: chevelle-list@chevelles.net Subject: Re: [Chevelle-list] starter starter wiring Hi Dale, Thanks for the links and please understand that I was not trying to criticize you. All I'm saying is that with either wiring method, the original solenoid still has to work. Otherwise you are just passing current to a switched point where the switch is dead. The Nova sites' method really accomplishes nothing, because all the first solenoid does is pass the current along as if you had it hooked up the old way. So, you pass 12V to the BAT and S terminals on the starter, and if you're lucky your starter will work as normal after that. With the Summit/MAD way, you at least eliminate the small wire(s) at the starter. Those wires often get burned and they are another thing to deal with from under the car when changing a starter. With the Summit/MAD way, you jumper from the BAT terminal to the S terminal on the starter so that as soon as current is passed to the BAT terminal it also goes to the S, but w/o as much length of small-gauge wire. As we know, DC current doesn't travel well over long thin wires. Also with this method, the large battery cable from the solenoid to the starter is dead unless the solenoid is activated. This is kind of nice because if your large cable does burn, at least you don't short out the battery (until the next time you try to start it). Also you can drop the starter w/o disconnecting the positive battery-to-solenoid cable, which is one less thing to have to do when changing a starter. With either method, the original solenoid still has to work though. This statement from MAD: The problem occurs because the large solenoid on the GM starter draws 40 to 50 amps at the moment the key is turned to START. And that large amount of current must flow through a very lengthy circuit, from the battery to the dash area. Through dash wiring and switches, back out through the under-hood wiring, finally to the starter. is not true. The whole point of the solenoid is that it is an electromagnetic switch. The switch itself draws much less current than the starter motor. The switch is also not electrically connected to the starter motor. That is why it can be serviced via a smaller wire. A small amount of current goes from the battery, through the ignition switch and the neutral safety switch to activate the electromagnet in the solenoid, which closes the circuit to allow the 12V that is coming through the big cable to get to the starter motor. That large amount of current does not travel through the dash. If it did, you would need a cable as fat as your battery cable passing through your dash, and you would need heavy duty ignition neutral safety switches. You also would not need the fat cable going directly from the battery to the starter. The only thing that passes through the dash is the small amount of current that it takes to operate the solenoid (switch). I see no benefit from the Nova sites' method. The MAD/Summit way at least cuts down on the length of small-gauge wire and keeps that wire away from the heat. It also makes the big lead to the BAT terminal dead unless the solenoid is activated, which can be handy. Remember that either way, the solenoid on the starter has to work. Otherwise you are just passing current to an open switch. The MAD kit comes w/ a small plate to jumper the BAT S terminals, which may conduct more amperage or be less susceptible to heat
Re: [Chevelle-list] starter starter wiring
One more thing about the Summit/MAD way. You can get a fatter wire between BAT S than the OEM wire to S, especially if you have the right lugs. A fatter wire over a shorter distance would not be as susceptible to heat. The MAD kit comes w/ a metal plate to bridge the two posts. The summit kit says to use 12 gauge wire. IIRC OEM is 16 and what I have on my car is 14 because it was the fattest that I could get to stay on there w/o a lug. I'd imagine that making that connection shorter and beefier would actually provide better results in a hot start situation. So, needless to say, I'm going to try the MAD/Summit way. John
Re: [Chevelle-list] starter starter wiring
That is exactly why I will stay off-line. No one was talking to John. I spoke up. Thanks Dale. regards - Original Message From: Dale [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: The Chevelle Mailing List chevelle-list@chevelles.net Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2007 3:11:10 PM Subject: Re: [Chevelle-list] starter starter wiring Have to question this, Mike. Heat, is doing some things. Thermal expansion making the bendix to flexplate distance to change. The flexplate-to-bendix distance isn't going to change do any measurable degree because of heat, both are pretty solidly mounted fixtures. Sounds like the problem is energizing the starter itself, not the travel distance required for the bendix. Sounds like excessive heat could be causing the problem. Is the battery-to-starter cable new or fairly new? The battery cable could be corroding inside the casing itself where it's not readily visible. If it's not a high torque starter that may, again may, help. High torque starters have the copper spacer on the solenoid to field post on the starter front; these starters were used on most big blocks. Herb's idea is one that solved the same problems I was having with the starter just getting heat soaked from the headers after driving for awhile at highway speeds. I solved mine with a kit from Summit, essentially the same thing as the MAD kit. One could make their own 'kit' with a simple Ford solenoid and some wiring. Toughest part to 'make' would be the connector required on the starter. _ avast! Antivirus http://www.avast.com : Outbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 071027-0, 10/27/2007 Tested on: 10/27/2007 3:07:41 PM avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2007 ALWIL Software. __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [Chevelle-list] starter starter wiring
In a message dated 10/26/2007 3:22:20 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I'm having some bad luck w/ starters what brand is the starter?? i have had that happen with rebuilt ones, i switched (actually the store where i bought them upgraded me to a A/C after i brought about 6 of the others back) to a new A/C brand and everything was ok Harlan ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com
Re: [Chevelle-list] starter starter wiring
Thanks. These have been rebuilt starters. They work fine until I try to start it while hot. The one in July fried when I shut it off to get gas and tried to restart. The last one fried when I shut it off and then realized I was not in a legal parking space and tried to restart. I spun the flexplate yesterday and did not see any bad teeth on it. I am not using any shims. However, I have to question whether it could be a physical problem like that because the thing that seems to be fatal is trying to start it when hot. Also, changing the starter seems to fix the problem. I'm also wondering if pulling current directly off of the battery is sending too much amperage to the starter. Don't know enough about electricity to know if that's possible. I always thought that a thing would only draw as much as it can draw, and there is no such thing as too much available amperage. Of course this always has to be fixed when it's raining. I'll be buying another starter today and I'll let you know what happens, other than me getting wet. John Quoting [EMAIL PROTECTED]: In a message dated 10/26/2007 3:22:20 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I'm having some bad luck w/ starters what brand is the starter?? i have had that happen with rebuilt ones, i switched (actually the store where i bought them upgraded me to a A/C after i brought about 6 of the others back) to a new A/C brand and everything was ok Harlan ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com
Re: [Chevelle-list] starter starter wiring
John, If you're having a hot start problem it's because the exhaust is cooking the solenoid. There are a couple of ways that I know of to fix this... 1. Replace the solenoid spring with a low tension spring (Chevy dealer). When the solenoid gets hot it draws too many amps for the battery to support. By using a low tension spring, the hot solenoid can compress it easier. Or, 2. You can convert your starter to work with a Ford solenoid. MAD Electric sells the kit... http://www.madelectrical.com/catalog/st-1.shtml Have fun and good luck. Herb -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Nasta Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2007 11:05 AM To: chevelle-list@chevelles.net Subject: Re: [Chevelle-list] starter starter wiring Thanks. These have been rebuilt starters. They work fine until I try to start it while hot. The one in July fried when I shut it off to get gas and tried to restart. The last one fried when I shut it off and then realized I was not in a legal parking space and tried to restart. I spun the flexplate yesterday and did not see any bad teeth on it. I am not using any shims. However, I have to question whether it could be a physical problem like that because the thing that seems to be fatal is trying to start it when hot. Also, changing the starter seems to fix the problem. I'm also wondering if pulling current directly off of the battery is sending too much amperage to the starter. Don't know enough about electricity to know if that's possible. I always thought that a thing would only draw as much as it can draw, and there is no such thing as too much available amperage. Of course this always has to be fixed when it's raining. I'll be buying another starter today and I'll let you know what happens, other than me getting wet. John Quoting [EMAIL PROTECTED]: In a message dated 10/26/2007 3:22:20 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I'm having some bad luck w/ starters what brand is the starter?? i have had that happen with rebuilt ones, i switched (actually the store where i bought them upgraded me to a A/C after i brought about 6 of the others back) to a new A/C brand and everything was ok Harlan ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com
Re: [Chevelle-list] starter starter wiring
Flexplate was a good thing to check. They, meaning starters pull a lot of amps. But, what I hear you say is this. Heat, is doing some things. Thermal expansion making the bendix to flexplate distance to change. And heat causes the resistance of copper to increase. Double check, at the part store, the battery and starter. Then check cables. What you must determine is the battery cable to the starter is good. Is the ground good too. Poor grounds in the engine bay to the battery are important. We, meaning our process will eventually get to the grounds between the engine-Frame and chassis later as we find if the voltage to the stater solenoid is low. That can be checked with a meter and have someone turn the key to start (cables disconnected) and measure. I can explain more on that if you want. You have to do those things first. I know you did them already but they have to be done agian to be sure. mike - Original Message From: John Nasta [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: chevelle-list@chevelles.net Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2007 10:05:24 AM Subject: Re: [Chevelle-list] starter starter wiring Thanks. These have been rebuilt starters. They work fine until I try to start it while hot. The one in July fried when I shut it off to get gas and tried to restart. The last one fried when I shut it off and then realized I was not in a legal parking space and tried to restart. I spun the flexplate yesterday and did not see any bad teeth on it. I am not using any shims. However, I have to question whether it could be a physical problem like that because the thing that seems to be fatal is trying to start it when hot. Also, changing the starter seems to fix the problem. I'm also wondering if pulling current directly off of the battery is sending too much amperage to the starter. Don't know enough about electricity to know if that's possible. I always thought that a thing would only draw as much as it can draw, and there is no such thing as too much available amperage. Of course this always has to be fixed when it's raining. I'll be buying another starter today and I'll let you know what happens, other than me getting wet. John Quoting [EMAIL PROTECTED]: In a message dated 10/26/2007 3:22:20 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I'm having some bad luck w/ starters what brand is the starter?? i have had that happen with rebuilt ones, i switched (actually the store where i bought them upgraded me to a A/C after i brought about 6 of the others back) to a new A/C brand and everything was ok Harlan ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
Re: [Chevelle-list] starter starter wiring
Thanks Herb, I think you're right. That would explain why replacing the starter fixes the problem for a while. I have a Flowmaster kit on it and I was thinking while I was poking around in there yesterday that the exhaust is very close to the starter. I'll check on that spring on Monday. Do you happen to have a part number? The Ford solenoid does have it's advantages, but I have to move this car by Monday or I'll get a ticket. No time for mail order. I'll hold onto the info. Would it help to put some kind of heat tape on the exhaust pipe? John Quoting Herb Lumpp [EMAIL PROTECTED]: John, If you're having a hot start problem it's because the exhaust is cooking the solenoid. There are a couple of ways that I know of to fix this... 1. Replace the solenoid spring with a low tension spring (Chevy dealer). When the solenoid gets hot it draws too many amps for the battery to support. By using a low tension spring, the hot solenoid can compress it easier. Or, 2. You can convert your starter to work with a Ford solenoid. MAD Electric sells the kit... http://www.madelectrical.com/catalog/st-1.shtml Have fun and good luck. Herb -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Nasta Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2007 11:05 AM To: chevelle-list@chevelles.net Subject: Re: [Chevelle-list] starter starter wiring Thanks. These have been rebuilt starters. They work fine until I try to start it while hot. The one in July fried when I shut it off to get gas and tried to restart. The last one fried when I shut it off and then realized I was not in a legal parking space and tried to restart. I spun the flexplate yesterday and did not see any bad teeth on it. I am not using any shims. However, I have to question whether it could be a physical problem like that because the thing that seems to be fatal is trying to start it when hot. Also, changing the starter seems to fix the problem. I'm also wondering if pulling current directly off of the battery is sending too much amperage to the starter. Don't know enough about electricity to know if that's possible. I always thought that a thing would only draw as much as it can draw, and there is no such thing as too much available amperage. Of course this always has to be fixed when it's raining. I'll be buying another starter today and I'll let you know what happens, other than me getting wet. John Quoting [EMAIL PROTECTED]: In a message dated 10/26/2007 3:22:20 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I'm having some bad luck w/ starters what brand is the starter?? i have had that happen with rebuilt ones, i switched (actually the store where i bought them upgraded me to a A/C after i brought about 6 of the others back) to a new A/C brand and everything was ok Harlan ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com
Re: [Chevelle-list] starter starter wiring
John, for temporary use, find a suitable size can (coffee,etc.) and trim to fit over the starter. This will reflect the heat, it just looks bad. Brian Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 08:52:09 -0700 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: chevelle-list@chevelles.net Subject: Re: [Chevelle-list] starter starter wiring Thanks Herb, I think you're right. That would explain why replacing the starter fixes the problem for a while. I have a Flowmaster kit on it and I was thinking while I was poking around in there yesterday that the exhaust is very close to the starter. I'll check on that spring on Monday. Do you happen to have a part number? The Ford solenoid does have it's advantages, but I have to move this car by Monday or I'll get a ticket. No time for mail order. I'll hold onto the info. Would it help to put some kind of heat tape on the exhaust pipe? John Quoting Herb Lumpp [EMAIL PROTECTED]: John, If you're having a hot start problem it's because the exhaust is cooking the solenoid. There are a couple of ways that I know of to fix this... 1. Replace the solenoid spring with a low tension spring (Chevy dealer). When the solenoid gets hot it draws too many amps for the battery to support. By using a low tension spring, the hot solenoid can compress it easier. Or, 2. You can convert your starter to work with a Ford solenoid. MAD Electric sells the kit... http://www.madelectrical.com/catalog/st-1.shtml Have fun and good luck. Herb -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Nasta Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2007 11:05 AM To: chevelle-list@chevelles.net Subject: Re: [Chevelle-list] starter starter wiring Thanks. These have been rebuilt starters. They work fine until I try to start it while hot. The one in July fried when I shut it off to get gas and tried to restart. The last one fried when I shut it off and then realized I was not in a legal parking space and tried to restart. I spun the flexplate yesterday and did not see any bad teeth on it. I am not using any shims. However, I have to question whether it could be a physical problem like that because the thing that seems to be fatal is trying to start it when hot. Also, changing the starter seems to fix the problem. I'm also wondering if pulling current directly off of the battery is sending too much amperage to the starter. Don't know enough about electricity to know if that's possible. I always thought that a thing would only draw as much as it can draw, and there is no such thing as too much available amperage. Of course this always has to be fixed when it's raining. I'll be buying another starter today and I'll let you know what happens, other than me getting wet. JohnQuoting [EMAIL PROTECTED]: In a message dated 10/26/2007 3:22:20 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:I'm having some bad luck w/ starters what brand is the starter?? i have had that happen with rebuilt ones, i switched (actually the store where i bought them upgraded me to a A/C after i brought about 6 of the others back) to a new A/C brand and everything was ok Harlan ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com _ Peek-a-boo FREE Tricks Treats for You! http://www.reallivemoms.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHMloc=us
Re: [Chevelle-list] starter starter wiring
John: You can buy a heat shield that goes between the starter and the headers or you can wrap the starter. Larry [EMAIL PROTECTED] 1965 Chevelle Malibu SS Collector of 1965 Chevelle parts Seller of none (got to finish the car first) ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com
Re: [Chevelle-list] starter starter wiring
Thanks. I'll see if the place where I'm getting the starter has anything. I have to at least get the car movable for now. Quoting [EMAIL PROTECTED]: John: You can buy a heat shield that goes between the starter and the headers or you can wrap the starter. Larry [EMAIL PROTECTED] 1965 Chevelle Malibu SS Collector of 1965 Chevelle parts Seller of none (got to finish the car first) ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com
Re: [Chevelle-list] starter starter wiring
Actually, I can remember my dad making a coffee can heat shield when I was a kid. We had a '59 Impala and then a '64. Quoting Brian Knight [EMAIL PROTECTED]: John, for temporary use, find a suitable size can (coffee,etc.) and trim to fit over the starter. This will reflect the heat, it just looks bad. Brian
Re: [Chevelle-list] starter starter wiring
John, I cured a hard start when hot problem on my '65 Chevelle's new crate engine by returning the $50 rebuilt starter and upgrading to a $200 gear reduction starter. Hot start problems are gone. Dennis McGillis 1965 Malibu SS-350 - Original Message - From: John Nasta [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: chevelle-list@chevelles.net Sent: Friday, October 26, 2007 1:20 PM Subject: [Chevelle-list] starter starter wiring I'm having some bad luck w/ starters. They seem to just burn up if try to start the engine when it's hot. I hear 1 click, and then that starter never works again. I replaced one on July 5th and it's already fried (and I hardly ever even drive the car). This is a 1969 EC w/ 283/TH350 combo stock x-mans. I also have always had a problem where the yellow lead to the solenoid is hot any time the key is in the run position. Because of this, I can't hook up the starter wiring properly. Instead I have a lead running from the battery to the cab and another going from the cab to the solenoid. To start the engine I have to have the key on and then short the two wires. I have always assumed that this is caused by a bad ignition switch. The wiring harness was purchased new from MH and shouldn't be the problem. The battery was replaced in August '07. Any thoughts on why I'm burning through starters so quickly or why my solenoid wire is hot while in the run position are appreciated. I need to get this sorted out because I have gotten stuck twice now with dead starters. Also, does anyone know the length of the positive battery cable? I want to replace mine while I have the starter out. Thanks, John Nasta
Re: [Chevelle-list] starter starter wiring
2 wordsMini Starter. You can get them for $95 off ebay. I put one on my 70 after dealing with it taking a crap on me up at the CanAm show this year in the parking lot of the hotel. Problem solved. Don't waste $200 buying one off Jeg's or Summit or somewhere else..ebay has them all day long for $95 Tom Rightler MCC Newsletter Editor - Original Message - From: John Nasta [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: chevelle-list@chevelles.net Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2007 12:26 PM Subject: Re: [Chevelle-list] starter starter wiring Actually, I can remember my dad making a coffee can heat shield when I was a kid. We had a '59 Impala and then a '64. Quoting Brian Knight [EMAIL PROTECTED]: John, for temporary use, find a suitable size can (coffee,etc.) and trim to fit over the starter. This will reflect the heat, it just looks bad. Brian -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.12/1096 - Release Date: 10/27/2007 11:02 AM
Re: [Chevelle-list] starter starter wiring
Thanks Tom, I remember being stuck in your '70 this past Spring. Luckily it started after it cooled off. Mine seems to never start again, even if you let it sit for hours. They just seem to burn out and never work again. I already bought a new (not rebuilt) starter today, but it's raining pretty hard and unless it lets up I'll wait 'til tomorrow to try it. It came with a shim, oddly enough. Maybe that's because it's new. The guy in the parts store said that the remote solenoid is the best way to go. It's certainly cheaper. This is one of the last mom pop type stores in my neighborhood. The kind where you can say that you need a 3510 starter, and they don't need to ask you what year the car is or what engine it has to know what you're talking about. John Quoting Tom Rightler [EMAIL PROTECTED]: 2 wordsMini Starter. You can get them for $95 off ebay. I put one on my 70 after dealing with it taking a crap on me up at the CanAm show this year in the parking lot of the hotel. Problem solved. Don't waste $200 buying one off Jeg's or Summit or somewhere else..ebay has them all day long for $95 Tom Rightler MCC Newsletter Editor - Original Message - From: John Nasta [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: chevelle-list@chevelles.net Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2007 12:26 PM Subject: Re: [Chevelle-list] starter starter wiring Actually, I can remember my dad making a coffee can heat shield when I was a kid. We had a '59 Impala and then a '64. Quoting Brian Knight [EMAIL PROTECTED]: John, for temporary use, find a suitable size can (coffee,etc.) and trim to fit over the starter. This will reflect the heat, it just looks bad. Brian -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.503 / Virus Database: 269.15.12/1096 - Release Date: 10/27/2007 11:02 AM
Re: [Chevelle-list] starter starter wiring
I'll take that '59 off your dad's hands! -- Original message -- From: John Nasta [EMAIL PROTECTED] Actually, I can remember my dad making a coffee can heat shield when I was a kid. We had a '59 Impala and then a '64. Quoting Brian Knight : John, for temporary use, find a suitable size can (coffee,etc.) and trim to fit over the starter. This will reflect the heat, it just looks bad. Brian
Re: [Chevelle-list] starter starter wiring
Thanks Dennis, Is that the same thing as a mini-starter? I guess without a doubt I should be getting one at least for the '70 Malibu if not the '69 EC. The '70 has headers. Hopefully it will be running soon. The '69 has stock x-mans but the pipes still come very close to the starter. John Quoting Dennis.McGillis [EMAIL PROTECTED]: John, I cured a hard start when hot problem on my '65 Chevelle's new crate engine by returning the $50 rebuilt starter and upgrading to a $200 gear reduction starter. Hot start problems are gone. Dennis McGillis 1965 Malibu SS-350
Re: [Chevelle-list] starter starter wiring
Yeah, I wish he still had it. I saw a white '59 coupe in Marin County CA about a year ago under a carport with enough dust dirt on it to be obvious that it hasn't been driven in years. I was so tempted to knock on their door and ask about it... Quoting Rich Pruett [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I'll take that '59 off your dad's hands!
Re: [Chevelle-list] starter starter wiring
Yes, the gear reduction starters are smaller, lighter and more powerful than the old cast iron ones our cars came with. Also more expensive. Dennis - Original Message - From: John Nasta [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: chevelle-list@chevelles.net Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2007 10:54 AM Subject: Re: [Chevelle-list] starter starter wiring Thanks Dennis, Is that the same thing as a mini-starter? I guess without a doubt I should be getting one at least for the '70 Malibu if not the '69 EC. The '70 has headers. Hopefully it will be running soon. The '69 has stock x-mans but the pipes still come very close to the starter. John Quoting Dennis.McGillis [EMAIL PROTECTED]: John, I cured a hard start when hot problem on my '65 Chevelle's new crate engine by returning the $50 rebuilt starter and upgrading to a $200 gear reduction starter. Hot start problems are gone. Dennis McGillis 1965 Malibu SS-350
Re: [Chevelle-list] starter starter wiring
I just had my old Power Master mini starter give after 10 years of abuse. I bought a new one from these guys who came highly recommended. It works great and has enough power to crank over my 454 with no problem. _http://www.db-starter-alternator.com/Items/st100_ (http://www.db-starter-alternator.com/Items/st100) Pat ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com
Re: [Chevelle-list] starter starter wiring
Do they have one for the offset bolt pattern? Quoting [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I just had my old Power Master mini starter give after 10 years of abuse. I bought a new one from these guys who came highly recommended. It works great and has enough power to crank over my 454 with no problem. _http://www.db-starter-alternator.com/Items/st100_ (http://www.db-starter-alternator.com/Items/st100) Pat ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com
Re: [Chevelle-list] starter starter wiring
Have to question this, Mike. Heat, is doing some things. Thermal expansion making the bendix to flexplate distance to change. The flexplate-to-bendix distance isn't going to change do any measurable degree because of heat, both are pretty solidly mounted fixtures. Sounds like the problem is energizing the starter itself, not the travel distance required for the bendix. Sounds like excessive heat could be causing the problem. Is the battery-to-starter cable new or fairly new? The battery cable could be corroding inside the casing itself where it's not readily visible. If it's not a high torque starter that may, again may, help. High torque starters have the copper spacer on the solenoid to field post on the starter front; these starters were used on most big blocks. Herb's idea is one that solved the same problems I was having with the starter just getting heat soaked from the headers after driving for awhile at highway speeds. I solved mine with a kit from Summit, essentially the same thing as the MAD kit. One could make their own 'kit' with a simple Ford solenoid and some wiring. Toughest part to 'make' would be the connector required on the starter. _ avast! Antivirus http://www.avast.com : Outbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 071027-0, 10/27/2007 Tested on: 10/27/2007 3:07:41 PM avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2007 ALWIL Software.
Re: [Chevelle-list] starter starter wiring
To me, the three prettiest years running for Chevy was '58, '59 and '60. -- Original message -- From: John Nasta [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yeah, I wish he still had it. I saw a white '59 coupe in Marin County CA about a year ago under a carport with enough dust dirt on it to be obvious that it hasn't been driven in years. I was so tempted to knock on their door and ask about it... Quoting Rich Pruett : I'll take that '59 off your dad's hands!
Re: [Chevelle-list] starter starter wiring
Hi Dale, Yes it seems to me that you could easily make it yourself but having a nice little kit with instructions is handy. Do you still have the instructions? Thanks, John Quoting Dale [EMAIL PROTECTED]: snip One could make their own 'kit' with a simple Ford solenoid and some wiring. Toughest part to 'make' would be the connector required on the starter.
Re: [Chevelle-list] starter starter wiring
Wow, from $58 is a heck of a deal! They are about $200 on some sites. I could not find where it says, are they new or rebuilt? Dennis - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: chevelle-list@chevelles.net Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2007 11:42 AM Subject: Re: [Chevelle-list] starter starter wiring I just had my old Power Master mini starter give after 10 years of abuse. I bought a new one from these guys who came highly recommended. It works great and has enough power to crank over my 454 with no problem. http://www.db-starter-alternator.com/Items/st100 Pat -- See what's new at AOL.com and Make AOL Your Homepage.
Re: [Chevelle-list] starter starter wiring
John, simply run the existing cable from starter to the F*** solenoid on the fire wall, run new cable from bat. to new solenoid. I had to do this on my 406 powered truck. It works great, and if one solenoid or the other goes bad, you can run off the other until you can replace the bad. Pretty simple job, really, just make sure you have good ground to new unit on fire wall. Brian Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 13:55:41 -0700 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: chevelle-list@chevelles.net Subject: Re: [Chevelle-list] starter starter wiring Hi Dale, Yes it seems to me that you could easily make it yourself but having a nice little kit with instructions is handy. Do you still have the instructions? Thanks, John Quoting Dale [EMAIL PROTECTED]: snip One could make their own 'kit' with a simple Ford solenoid and some wiring. Toughest part to 'make' would be the connector required on the starter. _ Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger Café. Stop by today. http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_OctWLtagline
Re: [Chevelle-list] starter starter wiring
Hi Brian, Yeah, seems like you just need a short pos. battery cable to the new solenoid, and another from the new solenoid to the starter. The small wire(s) that you would normally hook up at the starter solenoid now go to the new solenoid, and that's about it. There's probably a bolt already on the firewall that I can test for ground. This is good because it means that I can get everything locally. Only thing is, w/ this setup the wire between the new solenoid the starter is dead unless except during cranking, so in order to use the starter's built-in solenoid you'd have to rewire it back to the old way. Thanks, John Quoting Brian Knight [EMAIL PROTECTED]: John, simply run the existing cable from starter to the F*** solenoid on the fire wall, run new cable from bat. to new solenoid. I had to do this on my 406 powered truck. It works great, and if one solenoid or the other goes bad, you can run off the other until you can replace the bad. Pretty simple job, really, just make sure you have good ground to new unit on fire wall.
Re: [Chevelle-list] starter starter wiring
That is correct, John. The main reason for checking the ground, is an older fire wall may have rust in the joints, thereby limiting the amount of current your'e attempting to pass thruogh it. I have exactly that setup on an old Chevy truck for nearly 10 yrs. and have yet to replace a starter or solenoid. Oh, carry a short peice of cable to jump from new to old solenoid and you won't have to physically rewire, this is especially helpful on those cold, dark, rainy nights! I have this setup on a mostly off road use only 4x4, and it does come in handy. Brian Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2007 14:44:16 -0700 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: chevelle-list@chevelles.net Subject: Re: [Chevelle-list] starter starter wiring Hi Brian, Yeah, seems like you just need a short pos. battery cable to the new solenoid, and another from the new solenoid to the starter. The small wire(s) that you would normally hook up at the starter solenoid now go to the new solenoid, and that's about it. There's probably a bolt already on the firewall that I can test for ground. This is good because it means that I can get everything locally. Only thing is, w/ this setup the wire between the new solenoid the starter is dead unless except during cranking, so in order to use the starter's built-in solenoid you'd have to rewire it back to the old way. Thanks, John Quoting Brian Knight [EMAIL PROTECTED]:John, simply run the existing cable from starter to the F*** solenoid on the fire wall, run new cable from bat. to new solenoid. I had to do this on my 406 powered truck. It works great, and if one solenoid or the other goes bad, you can run off the other until you can replace the bad. Pretty simple job, really, just make sure you have good ground to new unit on fire wall. _ Help yourself to FREE treats served up daily at the Messenger Café. Stop by today. http://www.cafemessenger.com/info/info_sweetstuff2.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_OctWLtagline
Re: [Chevelle-list] starter starter wiring
You don't need a kit. Get a ford solenoid at advanced auto and the wiring diagram from Mad on line. Takes about 30 mins tops. You will need some #10 gauge wire, a piece of battery terminal wire and lugs, some terminals and a drill to mount the solenoid. I did this about 2 months ago. Jim -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Nasta Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2007 11:52 AM To: chevelle-list@chevelles.net Subject: Re: [Chevelle-list] starter starter wiring Thanks Herb, I think you're right. That would explain why replacing the starter fixes the problem for a while. I have a Flowmaster kit on it and I was thinking while I was poking around in there yesterday that the exhaust is very close to the starter. I'll check on that spring on Monday. Do you happen to have a part number? The Ford solenoid does have it's advantages, but I have to move this car by Monday or I'll get a ticket. No time for mail order. I'll hold onto the info. Would it help to put some kind of heat tape on the exhaust pipe? John Quoting Herb Lumpp [EMAIL PROTECTED]: John, If you're having a hot start problem it's because the exhaust is cooking the solenoid. There are a couple of ways that I know of to fix this... 1. Replace the solenoid spring with a low tension spring (Chevy dealer). When the solenoid gets hot it draws too many amps for the battery to support. By using a low tension spring, the hot solenoid can compress it easier. Or, 2. You can convert your starter to work with a Ford solenoid. MAD Electric sells the kit... http://www.madelectrical.com/catalog/st-1.shtml Have fun and good luck. Herb -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Nasta Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2007 11:05 AM To: chevelle-list@chevelles.net Subject: Re: [Chevelle-list] starter starter wiring Thanks. These have been rebuilt starters. They work fine until I try to start it while hot. The one in July fried when I shut it off to get gas and tried to restart. The last one fried when I shut it off and then realized I was not in a legal parking space and tried to restart. I spun the flexplate yesterday and did not see any bad teeth on it. I am not using any shims. However, I have to question whether it could be a physical problem like that because the thing that seems to be fatal is trying to start it when hot. Also, changing the starter seems to fix the problem. I'm also wondering if pulling current directly off of the battery is sending too much amperage to the starter. Don't know enough about electricity to know if that's possible. I always thought that a thing would only draw as much as it can draw, and there is no such thing as too much available amperage. Of course this always has to be fixed when it's raining. I'll be buying another starter today and I'll let you know what happens, other than me getting wet. John Quoting [EMAIL PROTECTED]: In a message dated 10/26/2007 3:22:20 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I'm having some bad luck w/ starters what brand is the starter?? i have had that happen with rebuilt ones, i switched (actually the store where i bought them upgraded me to a A/C after i brought about 6 of the others back) to a new A/C brand and everything was ok Harlan ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com
Re: [Chevelle-list] starter starter wiring
W/ the Ford solenoid do you have to bypass the original starter solenoid somehow? Seems like just adding another solenoid inline doesn't stop the original one from needing to be activated in order to pass the current. I get the thing about the battery cable routing and all, but it seems like you are still connecting all of that to a switched point, so you'd have to bypass that switch. Otherwise the first solenoid is just passing current to a dead switch. No?
Re: [Chevelle-list] starter starter wiring
I don't see one for offset. My stock starter was offset, but the block had the other hole so the mini starter fit fine. I can't imagine that they are rebuilt. Every part was perfect and even the mounting block was polished. Pat ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com
Re: [Chevelle-list] starter starter wiring
I found several sites http://www.novaresource.org/starter.htm, http://www.stevesnovasite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75288, and http://www.oldengine.org/unfaq/solenoid.htm where users switched to the Ford solenoid and both wired theirs essentially the same way; both are different from the instructions in the Summit kit and I don't know about the MAD kit. http://www.chevellestuff.com/tech/ford_solenoid.htm has diagrams for wiring the Summit way along with a photo showing Summit's kit (item #SUM-G1750). If you go to the Summit site and search for SUM-G1750 (http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1 http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1?=SUM%2DG1750N=70 0+0autoview=sku ?=SUM%2DG1750N=700+0autoview=sku might get you there), there's a link to a .PDF instruction file. Dale McIntosh ChevelleCD.com ChevelleStuff.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Nasta Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2007 3:56 PM To: chevelle-list@chevelles.net Subject: Re: [Chevelle-list] starter starter wiring Hi Dale, Yes it seems to me that you could easily make it yourself but having a nice little kit with instructions is handy. Do you still have the instructions? Thanks, John Quoting Dale [EMAIL PROTECTED]: snip One could make their own 'kit' with a simple Ford solenoid and some wiring. Toughest part to 'make' would be the connector required on the starter. _ avast! Antivirus http://www.avast.com : Outbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 071027-0, 10/27/2007 Tested on: 10/27/2007 6:35:47 PM avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2007 ALWIL Software.
Re: [Chevelle-list] starter starter wiring
Unless I'm missing something, the novaresource way (same as stevesnovasite) seems totally bogus. The starter solenoid would still have to work and the new Ford solenoid just becomes an extra inline switch. The Summit way shows a jumper wire from the BAT terminal on the starter to the S terminal. I'm still not sure how this helps if the solenoid on the starter is fried.
Re: [Chevelle-list] starter starter wiring
Didn't say I agreed with the way it's done on the Nova site, just pointing to a reference and one way to do it. The forum link kinda doesn't like it either, but again they're opinions. To quote the M.A.D. site, The problem occurs because the large solenoid on the GM starter draws 40 to 50 amps at the moment the key is turned to START. And that large amount of current must flow through a very lengthy circuit, from the battery to the dash area. Through dash wiring and switches, back out through the under-hood wiring, finally to the starter. The START'M UP kit will reduce current flow through the lengthy circuit to only 2 amps-then the system will work fine. I'm sure if some research is done online, there'd be somebody that would put it in terms even I could understand. I'm barely beyond the Off/On concept - LOL But I know it's worked for some and not for others. Some think it's the greatest thing since sliced bread and others say it's a waste of time. Dale McIntosh ChevelleCD.com ChevelleStuff.com -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Nasta Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2007 7:15 PM To: chevelle-list@chevelles.net Subject: Re: [Chevelle-list] starter starter wiring Unless I'm missing something, the novaresource way (same as stevesnovasite) seems totally bogus. The starter solenoid would still have to work and the new Ford solenoid just becomes an extra inline switch. The Summit way shows a jumper wire from the BAT terminal on the starter to the S terminal. I'm still not sure how this helps if the solenoid on the starter is fried. _ avast! Antivirus http://www.avast.com : Outbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 071027-0, 10/27/2007 Tested on: 10/27/2007 7:47:11 PM avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2007 ALWIL Software.
Re: [Chevelle-list] starter starter wiring
Hi John, Sorry, but no joy on the spring part number. I thought I had it written down somewhere but it appears to have disappeared. I'm pretty sure this subject has been covered over the years so I would bet you could search the archives for the part number. Herb -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Nasta Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2007 11:52 AM To: chevelle-list@chevelles.net Subject: Re: [Chevelle-list] starter starter wiring Thanks Herb, I think you're right. That would explain why replacing the starter fixes the problem for a while. I have a Flowmaster kit on it and I was thinking while I was poking around in there yesterday that the exhaust is very close to the starter. I'll check on that spring on Monday. Do you happen to have a part number? The Ford solenoid does have it's advantages, but I have to move this car by Monday or I'll get a ticket. No time for mail order. I'll hold onto the info. Would it help to put some kind of heat tape on the exhaust pipe? John Quoting Herb Lumpp [EMAIL PROTECTED]: John, If you're having a hot start problem it's because the exhaust is cooking the solenoid. There are a couple of ways that I know of to fix this... 1. Replace the solenoid spring with a low tension spring (Chevy dealer). When the solenoid gets hot it draws too many amps for the battery to support. By using a low tension spring, the hot solenoid can compress it easier. Or, 2. You can convert your starter to work with a Ford solenoid. MAD Electric sells the kit... http://www.madelectrical.com/catalog/st-1.shtml Have fun and good luck. Herb -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Nasta Sent: Saturday, October 27, 2007 11:05 AM To: chevelle-list@chevelles.net Subject: Re: [Chevelle-list] starter starter wiring Thanks. These have been rebuilt starters. They work fine until I try to start it while hot. The one in July fried when I shut it off to get gas and tried to restart. The last one fried when I shut it off and then realized I was not in a legal parking space and tried to restart. I spun the flexplate yesterday and did not see any bad teeth on it. I am not using any shims. However, I have to question whether it could be a physical problem like that because the thing that seems to be fatal is trying to start it when hot. Also, changing the starter seems to fix the problem. I'm also wondering if pulling current directly off of the battery is sending too much amperage to the starter. Don't know enough about electricity to know if that's possible. I always thought that a thing would only draw as much as it can draw, and there is no such thing as too much available amperage. Of course this always has to be fixed when it's raining. I'll be buying another starter today and I'll let you know what happens, other than me getting wet. John Quoting [EMAIL PROTECTED]: In a message dated 10/26/2007 3:22:20 PM Central Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I'm having some bad luck w/ starters what brand is the starter?? i have had that happen with rebuilt ones, i switched (actually the store where i bought them upgraded me to a A/C after i brought about 6 of the others back) to a new A/C brand and everything was ok Harlan ** See what's new at http://www.aol.com
[Chevelle-list] starter starter wiring
I'm having some bad luck w/ starters. They seem to just burn up if try to start the engine when it's hot. I hear 1 click, and then that starter never works again. I replaced one on July 5th and it's already fried (and I hardly ever even drive the car). This is a 1969 EC w/ 283/TH350 combo stock x-mans. I also have always had a problem where the yellow lead to the solenoid is hot any time the key is in the run position. Because of this, I can't hook up the starter wiring properly. Instead I have a lead running from the battery to the cab and another going from the cab to the solenoid. To start the engine I have to have the key on and then short the two wires. I have always assumed that this is caused by a bad ignition switch. The wiring harness was purchased new from MH and shouldn't be the problem. The battery was replaced in August '07. Any thoughts on why I'm burning through starters so quickly or why my solenoid wire is hot while in the run position are appreciated. I need to get this sorted out because I have gotten stuck twice now with dead starters. Also, does anyone know the length of the positive battery cable? I want to replace mine while I have the starter out. Thanks, John Nasta
