Re: [CinCV] Feature Films in Cinelerra
Le 22/11/2011 12:13, Valentina Messeri a écrit : - you need a perfect working version of cinelerra (avoid packaging: compile your own version) I definitively need a deep explanation on that one! Does that comment deals with cooperation between cinelerra and the different external codecs libs? What else? -- Nicolas Ecarnot ___ Cinelerra mailing list Cinelerra@skolelinux.no https://init.linpro.no/mailman/skolelinux.no/listinfo/cinelerra
Re: [CinCV] Feature Films in Cinelerra
;) first of all, sorry to come late...and to give my 2 cents with no reading all thread also (basically no time to do that). Hi, hi! here is Valentina, linux videomaker since 2003. NB questions i put below you're not suppossed to answer meit's a way to anticipate problems you'll probably face, ok? I would like to know where I could find information about people editing feature films meant for theatrical release with Cinelerra. so, for example: which format for your film? Cinelerra doesn't handle all. Which is the format you normally use "for theatrical release" ? I'm ready for a little sweat when it comes to figure out and put together the best machine to run it on. What worries me, though is whether the software will be able to handle the task somehow easily. it depends on the taski mean a clean editing with the best quality footage is not difficult at all... I try to use as much free software as possible not just for economic reasons but to back the philosophy behind it. I would love to add Cinelerra to my professional kit. welli'll try to be short with 3 simple but basically tips: - you need a perfect workig OS - you need a perfect working version of cinelerra (avoid packaging: compile your own version) - you need to loose time and patience...since, gnu-linux or not, learn how to use a new tools takes time and patience Andaccording to my experience 1 on 10 is able to learn a new tool (overall if that new is a gnu-linx tool) simple because "it's not that easy". Hope you'll be in that 10%. all the best! Valentina Thanks a lot! Good work for you guys. This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. ___ Cinelerra mailing list Cinelerra@skolelinux.no https://init.linpro.no/mailman/skolelinux.no/listinfo/cinelerra
Re: [CinCV] Feature Films in Cinelerra
Am 22.11.2011 02:24, schrieb Eli Billauer: > In my workflow, automatic sync fixing would be great. In yours, it would be > a nightmare. People work differently, and have different needs. Obviously. Obviously. And the task of designing an application is to support a range of the most common workflows and established practices. Come on. We're discussing about professional usage, "Feature films in Cinelerra". We should take the task a bit more seriously. Cinelerra is already littered with tons of oh so clever, oh so brilliant little cheesy crappy hacks. Which force you to work around this and that all the time, make the application difficult to use, difficult to document and to maintain. Will we continue to add yet-more-not-so-useful features?? Why can't we just build a real link between an audio and a video clip? Wouldn't that be the most straight forward, least surprising solution? ;-) Hermann ___ Cinelerra mailing list Cinelerra@skolelinux.no https://init.linpro.no/mailman/skolelinux.no/listinfo/cinelerra
Re: [CinCV] Feature Films in Cinelerra
Ichthyostega wrote: Maybe you /should/ first question the *usefulness* and the *correctness*. Well, as I said before, I was pretty close to writing an EDL cleaning script doing what I described, so obviously I find the automatic sync correction useful. As for correctness, given a fairly simple heuristic algorithm, I believe it won't be difficult to avoid fiascoes. Anyhow, we do have different workflows. When the sound is recorded separately, I'll usually remux the raw video footage with the high quality audio, so I have a video clip which can be used as is. This allows perfect sync with a simple hand clap, which can be several minutes away from the piece I want to use. And I stopped using clips several years ago, maybe because of reasons which are irrelevant today (crashes, I suppose). In my workflow, automatic sync fixing would be great. In yours, it would be a nightmare. People work differently, and have different needs. Obviously. Eli -- Web: http://www.billauer.co.il ___ Cinelerra mailing list Cinelerra@skolelinux.no https://init.linpro.no/mailman/skolelinux.no/listinfo/cinelerra
Re: [CinCV] Feature Films in Cinelerra
Am 21.11.2011 01:54, schrieb Eli Billauer: > But the point is that this is an operation that depends only on > information which is output to the EDL file, so there's no question about > the feasibility. Maybe you /should/ first question the *usefulness* and the *correctness*. A lot of things are "feasible" and can be done somehow with the informations available. But for professional use, the key point is if a proposed feature (a) helps achieving a real world task (b) doesn't create additional liabilities (c) doesn't misbehave and destroy other work. Unfortunately, your proposed feature fails on these criteria. And you did already mention yourself why this is the case: > This simplistic flow doesn't say what happens if there's more than one video > track found in (2), or even more complicated, if there are two segments of > the same asset in the video track, both overlapping the audio segment (which > is quite common, e.g. sound bridge). Plus add to that the fact that material isn't organised in *tracks*, but in *clips*. Plus add to that the fact, that usually you have a mix of *multiple* video tracks and *several* audio tracks. Plus add to this the fact that the majority of the work for syncing audio goes into syncing externally captured sound tracks, like spot mikes, music recording, noise samples from sound libraries. OK, so to conclude (a) it doesn't address quite common tasks, just "fixes" one special corner case (b) which, instead of helping a professional user, now creates the liability to check *which* things got fixed and *which* ones weren't --> more work (c) will *destroy* any non-trivial use of the sound material and erroneously move sound clips to wrong positions, whenever the editor used either video or sound material from one capture to suit another purpose within the same mix (e.g. ambiance noise, image inserts etc etc etc) Most editing suites I'm aware off thus take another approach: they represent a "link" between individual clip objects and when one clip object is moved, they move the linked-to other objects alongside. And, usually I'd expect an option to break that link explicitly, and to re-establish a new link between previously unrelated material. At least, I'd expect that from an application claiming to be "professional" Cheers Hermann V ___ Cinelerra mailing list Cinelerra@skolelinux.no https://init.linpro.no/mailman/skolelinux.no/listinfo/cinelerra
Re: [CinCV] Feature Films in Cinelerra
Ichthyostega wrote: Cinelerra can't capture the concept of two objects in the Session "belonging together". Moreover, all infrastructure to capture the "history" which led to a certain editing situation is lacking. Building either one of these things would IMHO be the prerequisite of solving that problem with audio-video sync properly. The model I suggested is by far simpler: If the EDL can be examined for bad sync, it can be done internally in Cinelerra. The suggested flow goes as follows, and it's run every time any change is made in any sound track: (1) Check if the current sound track has the "sync lock" flag set (an attribute to be added to each sound track). If not, quit at this point. (2) Scan through all video tracks, and check if any of them is based on the same asset. If not, quit. (3) Change the start attribute of the audio track to match the video track (some frame rate / sample rate adjustments apply) This simplistic flow doesn't say what happens if there's more than one video track found in (2), or even more complicated, if there are two segments of the same asset in the video track, both overlapping the audio segment (which is quite common, e.g. sound bridge). But the point is that this is an operation that depends only on information which is output to the EDL file, so there's no question about the feasibility. And if it's difficult to hook this on every change in the sound track, I'm sure we'll all be happy with a "sync this track" entry when right-clicking an audio track, or something like that. And I would love to find the time to dive into the Cinelerra sources myself. I never get to that. Eli -- Web: http://www.billauer.co.il ___ Cinelerra mailing list Cinelerra@skolelinux.no https://init.linpro.no/mailman/skolelinux.no/listinfo/cinelerra
Re: [CinCV] Feature Films in Cinelerra
Am 20.11.2011 23:09, schrieb Eli Billauer: > ... because I thought this issue will be solved within Cinelerra itself > pretty soon. > It seemed wrong to me, that the process would be a text application saying > "Channel X doesn't match channel Y by Z seconds at time T. Do you want to > correct?". It would be so much more sensible, that an attribute of the sound > track would indicate that when the sound is taken from a video track, it > should always be synced. Yes indeed. Actually the problem is that the "model" which Cinelerra uses internally was designed way too simplistic right from start. Cinelerra can't capture the concept of two objects in the Session "belonging together". Moreover, all infrastructure to capture the "history" which led to a certain editing situation is lacking. Building either one of these things would IMHO be the prerequisite of solving that problem with audio-video sync properly. Unfortunately Cinelerra is a very powerful and flexible tool. There is a lot of things you can do with video and audio data. Consequently it is absolutely impossible to tell if a given situation in a session is "out of sync". Well, without breaking or missing some important corner cases, that is. Personally I did larger projects, where the sound was captured separately and synchronised with a flap. I used a bunch of python scripts plus quite some manual bookkeeping plus some very specific conventions to add the proper audio tracks after the image edit was in place. Basically this and a lot of similar experiences finally led me to jump into the Lumiera project (which, as some as you may recall, started out as an general overhaul of the Cinelerra code base). Cheers, Hermann V ___ Cinelerra mailing list Cinelerra@skolelinux.no https://init.linpro.no/mailman/skolelinux.no/listinfo/cinelerra
Re: [CinCV] Feature Films in Cinelerra
The audio/video locking thing has bothered me in the past, since even an accidental move of either can cause a slight lack of sync, which is hard to spot and is nevertheless annoying in the final render. It's interesting that this issue isn't handled by Cinelerra itself. In the past I've thought about writing a script fixing this in Perl, which makes the necessary time calculations on the EDL file (directly) for spotting unsynced audio/video, issues warnings and suggests correcting these things. I never got to that, because I thought this issue will be solved within Cinelerra itself pretty soon. It seemed wrong to me, that the process would be a text application saying "Channel X doesn't match channel Y by Z seconds at time T. Do you want to correct?". It would be so much more sensible, that an attribute of the sound track would indicate that when the sound is taken from a video track, it should always be synced. Want to lock video and audio together? Then Cinelerra isn't the tool you want. -- Web: http://www.billauer.co.il ___ Cinelerra mailing list Cinelerra@skolelinux.no https://init.linpro.no/mailman/skolelinux.no/listinfo/cinelerra
Re: [CinCV] Feature Films in Cinelerra
On 11/20/2011 10:26 PM, feli wrote: Le 2011-11-20 11:27, Heikki Repo a écrit : 2011/11/20 Leandro Martins: Hi, I would like to know where I could find information about people editing feature films meant for theatrical release with Cinelerra. I'm ready for a little sweat when it comes to figure out and put together the best machine to run it on. What worries me, though is whether the software will be able to handle the task somehow easily. I try to use as much free software as possible not just for economic reasons but to back the philosophy behind it. I would love to add Cinelerra to my professional kit. Thanks a lot! Good work for you guys. Hi Leandro, What kind of workflow do you have? Are you shooting digital or film? Do you need to collaborate with post production houses? Separate offline and online edit? These questions are rather important, because I'm afraid to say that Cinelerra might not yet be there for heavy professional work. Why? The biggest problem I can see is the lack of support for good consistent handling of timecode. If, for example, you are going to do an offline edit with DV and later recapture footage from HDCAM according to an EDL in a post production house, it won't be too easy. Some other things to consider: - Cinelerra can be somewhat fickle when doing cuts. It isn't too difficult to get black frames between cuts if one isn't very careful. - You'll probably have to do quite many saves and backups. A LOT of saves and backups. - Codecs and file formats: Linux video does support many formats, at least decode them. How efficient it is when doing it is another question. - The UI doesn't really have too many guides for moving video around. Want to know how many frames you are dragging a clip forward or backwards? Want to lock video and audio together? Then Cinelerra isn't the tool you want. To sum it up: it can be done, but it won't be too enjoyable trip, at least if one has gotten used to many small but useful features present in professional software. Cinelerra is certainly at the moment the best Linux editing software, but unfortunately it doesn't mean that it would be the tool I'd select for important work. If you want to edit on Linux, you might be interested of Lightworks, which should be released as beta for Linux next month. Sorry to offer such a depressing view on Cinelerra -- I'm very much for open source movement and use linux as my main operating system, but at the moment it just isn't yet there if professional editing work is concerned. Best regards Heikk ___ Cinelerra mailing list Cinelerra@skolelinux.no https://init.linpro.no/mailman/skolelinux.no/listinfo/cinelerra Hi Leandro, At onset, I must admit that I share some of the views of Heikki with regard to using Cinelerra for editing lengthy films. However let me share my experience, I've been making short films since 2004, short films that I presented at our local kino club (kino Montréal being the first one of these clubs, http://www.kino00.com/), I moved to Linux some time in 2008, because I learn about Cinelerra and believed that It could match other professional editing software. The learning curved has been steep and had it fair share of frustration and lengthy problem/resolution processes. I think that the worst of them resulted from the lack of audio/video lock. It is frustrating to realize after multiples edit steps on your time line, that an audio and a video sequences that you had alined together are off by some keyframe because the audio or video track was still "armed" while you where editing an other track. I supposed that now that I'm comfortable with Cinelerra, after 3 or 4 years of editing 5 to 20 minutes short films, I would find it interesting to tackle a full length production. Recently I've put up a render farm of 8 cores and I'm been editing footage in 1080p successfully. I use ffmpeg (an essential tool) to convert AVC video (.MOV) from my cannon camera to Mjpeg and edit the Mjpeg in Cinelerra. I export the final edit to raw YUV files that I convert to what ever final format with ffmpeg. I use 4 hard drive in a raid 0 configuration to hold the very large video files. Some time I find it useful to devide a project in a coupled of smaller projects, which export's are united later in the production process. In such a work flow, a feature film of 120 minutes would require some very large hard drive to hold all the intermediate raw or Mjpeg footage. I also read some where (correct me if I'm wrong) that the render engine as no limits as to the size of the project. I've editing a few short films in 2k and made some test (not exhaustive or anything) in a 4k project. Editing 4k footage, albeit requirering a massive render farm would seem to be an advantage of Cinelerra over some professional video editing software. Hence to sum up, I think that Cinelerra could be use for professional work if you master its secrets, divide your project is sm
Re: [CinCV] Feature Films in Cinelerra
Le 2011-11-20 11:27, Heikki Repo a écrit : 2011/11/20 Leandro Martins: Hi, I would like to know where I could find information about people editing feature films meant for theatrical release with Cinelerra. I'm ready for a little sweat when it comes to figure out and put together the best machine to run it on. What worries me, though is whether the software will be able to handle the task somehow easily. I try to use as much free software as possible not just for economic reasons but to back the philosophy behind it. I would love to add Cinelerra to my professional kit. Thanks a lot! Good work for you guys. Hi Leandro, What kind of workflow do you have? Are you shooting digital or film? Do you need to collaborate with post production houses? Separate offline and online edit? These questions are rather important, because I'm afraid to say that Cinelerra might not yet be there for heavy professional work. Why? The biggest problem I can see is the lack of support for good consistent handling of timecode. If, for example, you are going to do an offline edit with DV and later recapture footage from HDCAM according to an EDL in a post production house, it won't be too easy. Some other things to consider: - Cinelerra can be somewhat fickle when doing cuts. It isn't too difficult to get black frames between cuts if one isn't very careful. - You'll probably have to do quite many saves and backups. A LOT of saves and backups. - Codecs and file formats: Linux video does support many formats, at least decode them. How efficient it is when doing it is another question. - The UI doesn't really have too many guides for moving video around. Want to know how many frames you are dragging a clip forward or backwards? Want to lock video and audio together? Then Cinelerra isn't the tool you want. To sum it up: it can be done, but it won't be too enjoyable trip, at least if one has gotten used to many small but useful features present in professional software. Cinelerra is certainly at the moment the best Linux editing software, but unfortunately it doesn't mean that it would be the tool I'd select for important work. If you want to edit on Linux, you might be interested of Lightworks, which should be released as beta for Linux next month. Sorry to offer such a depressing view on Cinelerra -- I'm very much for open source movement and use linux as my main operating system, but at the moment it just isn't yet there if professional editing work is concerned. Best regards Heikk ___ Cinelerra mailing list Cinelerra@skolelinux.no https://init.linpro.no/mailman/skolelinux.no/listinfo/cinelerra Hi Leandro, At onset, I must admit that I share some of the views of Heikki with regard to using Cinelerra for editing lengthy films. However let me share my experience, I've been making short films since 2004, short films that I presented at our local kino club (kino Montréal being the first one of these clubs, http://www.kino00.com/), I moved to Linux some time in 2008, because I learn about Cinelerra and believed that It could match other professional editing software. The learning curved has been steep and had it fair share of frustration and lengthy problem/resolution processes. I think that the worst of them resulted from the lack of audio/video lock. It is frustrating to realize after multiples edit steps on your time line, that an audio and a video sequences that you had alined together are off by some keyframe because the audio or video track was still "armed" while you where editing an other track. I supposed that now that I'm comfortable with Cinelerra, after 3 or 4 years of editing 5 to 20 minutes short films, I would find it interesting to tackle a full length production. Recently I've put up a render farm of 8 cores and I'm been editing footage in 1080p successfully. I use ffmpeg (an essential tool) to convert AVC video (.MOV) from my cannon camera to Mjpeg and edit the Mjpeg in Cinelerra. I export the final edit to raw YUV files that I convert to what ever final format with ffmpeg. I use 4 hard drive in a raid 0 configuration to hold the very large video files. Some time I find it useful to devide a project in a coupled of smaller projects, which export's are united later in the production process. In such a work flow, a feature film of 120 minutes would require some very large hard drive to hold all the intermediate raw or Mjpeg footage. I also read some where (correct me if I'm wrong) that the render engine as no limits as to the size of the project. I've editing a few short films in 2k and made some test (not exhaustive or anything) in a 4k project. Editing 4k footage, albeit requirering a massive render farm would seem to be an advantage of Cinelerra over some professional video editing software. Hence to sum up, I think that Cinelerra could be use for professional work if you master its secrets, divide your project is sm
Re: [CinCV] Feature Films in Cinelerra
2011/11/20 Leandro Martins : > Hi, > > I would like to know where I could find information about people editing > feature films meant for theatrical release with Cinelerra. > > I'm ready for a little sweat when it comes to figure out and put together > the best machine to run it on. What worries me, though is whether the > software will be able to handle the task somehow easily. > > I try to use as much free software as possible not just for economic reasons > but to back the philosophy behind it. I would love to add Cinelerra to my > professional kit. > > Thanks a lot! > > Good work for you guys. > Hi Leandro, What kind of workflow do you have? Are you shooting digital or film? Do you need to collaborate with post production houses? Separate offline and online edit? These questions are rather important, because I'm afraid to say that Cinelerra might not yet be there for heavy professional work. Why? The biggest problem I can see is the lack of support for good consistent handling of timecode. If, for example, you are going to do an offline edit with DV and later recapture footage from HDCAM according to an EDL in a post production house, it won't be too easy. Some other things to consider: - Cinelerra can be somewhat fickle when doing cuts. It isn't too difficult to get black frames between cuts if one isn't very careful. - You'll probably have to do quite many saves and backups. A LOT of saves and backups. - Codecs and file formats: Linux video does support many formats, at least decode them. How efficient it is when doing it is another question. - The UI doesn't really have too many guides for moving video around. Want to know how many frames you are dragging a clip forward or backwards? Want to lock video and audio together? Then Cinelerra isn't the tool you want. To sum it up: it can be done, but it won't be too enjoyable trip, at least if one has gotten used to many small but useful features present in professional software. Cinelerra is certainly at the moment the best Linux editing software, but unfortunately it doesn't mean that it would be the tool I'd select for important work. If you want to edit on Linux, you might be interested of Lightworks, which should be released as beta for Linux next month. Sorry to offer such a depressing view on Cinelerra -- I'm very much for open source movement and use linux as my main operating system, but at the moment it just isn't yet there if professional editing work is concerned. Best regards Heikk ___ Cinelerra mailing list Cinelerra@skolelinux.no https://init.linpro.no/mailman/skolelinux.no/listinfo/cinelerra
[CinCV] Feature Films in Cinelerra
Hi, I would like to know where I could find information about people editing feature films meant for theatrical release with Cinelerra. I'm ready for a little sweat when it comes to figure out and put together the best machine to run it on. What worries me, though is whether the software will be able to handle the task somehow easily. I try to use as much free software as possible not just for economic reasons but to back the philosophy behind it. I would love to add Cinelerra to my professional kit. Thanks a lot! Good work for you guys.
