CCIE Vs. Linux engineer (not Ph.d) [7:66669]
Hopefully I'm not going to stir another whirpool here. Today I was surfing job sites and found out that where there are less than dozen jobs available for CCIE in Silicon valley, there are more than 80 jobs available for Linux engineers. Their initial salaries seem to be better than CCIE nowaday. We all understand that we take great pride in achieving CCIE. It is not only the hardest network certifications to get, but also financial rewards used to be excellent, too. No matter how much efforts we put in these CCIE certifications, our fates are still being subject to the cruel law of supply and demand especially in this time of war. Linux is not easy. There are many commands to remember. But it doesn't require to invest thousands of dollars in routers and switches for training. However their demands are higher than ever. On the other hand, the supply for the CCIEs seems to surpass today's demand and for some serious time to come. Some might say, you study CCIE because you love the networking. Alright, but if the future salaries for CCIEs are going to be somewhere near MCSE level, would you put such an effort to get CCIE certs and still pursuing the career of Cisco? Where are we heading? Someone please enlighten us. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=9&t=9 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE Vs. Linux engineer (not Ph.d) [7:66669]
Just study both and go easy on the incitement of textual riots. At 10:15 AM 4/2/2003 +, you wrote: >Hopefully I'm not going to stir another whirpool here. > >Today I was surfing job sites and found out that where there are less than >dozen jobs available for CCIE in Silicon valley, there are more than 80 jobs >available for Linux engineers. Their initial salaries seem to be better than >CCIE nowaday. >We all understand that we take great pride in achieving CCIE. It is not only >the hardest network certifications to get, but also financial rewards used >to be excellent, too. > >No matter how much efforts we put in these CCIE certifications, our fates >are still being subject to the cruel law of supply and demand especially in >this time of war. > >Linux is not easy. There are many commands to remember. But it doesn't >require to invest thousands of dollars in routers and switches for training. >However their demands are higher than ever. On the other hand, the supply >for the CCIEs seems to surpass today's demand and for some serious time to >come. > >Some might say, you study CCIE because you love the networking. Alright, but >if the future salaries for CCIEs are going to be somewhere near MCSE level, >would you put such an effort to get CCIE certs and still pursuing the career >of Cisco? > >Where are we heading? Someone please enlighten us. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=66688&t=9 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE Vs. Linux engineer (not Ph.d) [7:66669]
You have to think about what you want to do, and about the long term. While the rest of the economy experienced a mild and short recession-- so mild that it is debatable whether it technically should have counted as a recession, the telecommunications sector experienced something much more serious. If I use the word "depression," someone will say that is not accurate, as you can't have a depression in one industry, or some such technicality. This condition will not last forever. No one is throwing away their computer and giving up internet access. We are moving toward more and more high speed internet access and wireless access, which means more business and more support work. Cisco has just bought Linksys, a consumer networking equip company, which suggests that Cisco may soon move heavily into the mass market arena. As lower-cost Cisco consumer and SOHO devices proliferate, perhaps the trend will be for there to be a growing number of Cisco-related jobs, but at lower pay than we saw in the tech boom. I think the long-term future for people near the top of the Cisco knowledgebase pyramid is very good. Someone will have to teach all these lower-level support folks, and write books on how to use such and such Cisco consumer router or switch or firewall, in addition to doing all the corporate network design/install/troubleshooting work done now. Linux is very difficult to learn really well. True, CCIE lab equipment is expensive, but I think it may take less time for some people to become a CCIE than to get the kind of facility with Linux that the Linux-guru jobs require. Okay, maybe this is going to be true for only a very few people, but it might have been true for me. I mean, the UNIX command line syntax (-this, /that) often bears no relation to anything that can be used a mnemonic, while Cisco IOS is very much like plain English. I know I made a conscious decision to put away my various Unix platforms (FREEBSD, Red Hat Linux, Solaris) and concentrate on CCIE. Anyway, I love the Cisco material I am immersed in now. You will need to decide for yourself what you want to do, but if you decide based on the relative salaries offered right now, you could make the wrong decision. Tom Larus, CCIE #10,014 ""Mic shoeps"" wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Hopefully I'm not going to stir another whirpool here. > > Today I was surfing job sites and found out that where there are less than > dozen jobs available for CCIE in Silicon valley, there are more than 80 jobs > available for Linux engineers. Their initial salaries seem to be better than > CCIE nowaday. > We all understand that we take great pride in achieving CCIE. It is not only > the hardest network certifications to get, but also financial rewards used > to be excellent, too. > > No matter how much efforts we put in these CCIE certifications, our fates > are still being subject to the cruel law of supply and demand especially in > this time of war. > > Linux is not easy. There are many commands to remember. But it doesn't > require to invest thousands of dollars in routers and switches for training. > However their demands are higher than ever. On the other hand, the supply > for the CCIEs seems to surpass today's demand and for some serious time to > come. > > Some might say, you study CCIE because you love the networking. Alright, but > if the future salaries for CCIEs are going to be somewhere near MCSE level, > would you put such an effort to get CCIE certs and still pursuing the career > of Cisco? > > Where are we heading? Someone please enlighten us. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=66695&t=9 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE Vs. Linux engineer (not Ph.d) [7:66669]
IMHO if you are studying to get CCIE for money you are doing if for the wrong reasons. Doing a job you enjoy will give you more satisfation than doing a job because the money is good. Thats my $0.02 Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=66696&t=9 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE Vs. Linux engineer (not Ph.d) [7:66669]
I would alter this sentiment slightly: if you're doing it *just* for money... Honestly - would anyone do this stuff on a completely voluntary basis? I didn't think so. ;-) BJ Original Message: - From: Brian [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 15:19:14 GMT To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: CCIE Vs. Linux engineer (not Ph.d) [7:9] IMHO if you are studying to get CCIE for money you are doing if for the wrong reasons. Doing a job you enjoy will give you more satisfation than doing a job because the money is good. Thats my $0.02 mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=66700&t=9 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: CCIE Vs. Linux engineer (not Ph.d) [7:66669]
Thank you all folks. I don't know much about Linux. But I would like to use the analogy that Cisco engineers are like traffic officers in major intersections in a city and Linux (Lexus), Microsoft (Mercedes), Solaris (Saab), Visual+ (Volvo) engineers are like thousands of drivers passing through these intersections. As the traffic gets heavy, those intersections will get bog down and another intersections will be build to accomodate the throughput of the traffics. But the Lexus, Mercedes, Saab and Volvo engineers will build more bigger, faster and powerful sofisticated cars to get the most out of the infrastructures and elicit more customers to learn how to drive their cars. But the trouble is that the city is not expanding or get connected with another cities (hats off to the mayor Bush). Seems to me that there will be plenty of fuel and asphalt to build the road and power the cars. But the land is limited and more cars will be build to meet the insatiable consumer appetite. But soon the automations will catch up with the demand and the traffic officers will standing in his post like the Maytag technician. Worst of all, more traffic officers will become increasingly territorial to new and old alike. They will use the terms like 'ph'd' and 'lab rat' to boost their egos and deter others who are trying to enter into their realm. Yes, I love the challenge and that's what I'm doing right now. But I'll seriously reconsider if my presence becomes a threat to another traffic officer's pizza and the only choice I'll be left with is a big mac. Looks like Linux (open system for free) provide you that unhostile pizzaria and more. Your friendly insignt is appreciated. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=66713&t=9 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE Vs. Linux engineer (not Ph.d) [7:66669]
""Mic shoeps"" wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Thank you all folks. > I don't know much about Linux. But I would like to use the analogy that > Cisco engineers are like traffic officers in major intersections in a city > and Linux (Lexus), Microsoft (Mercedes), Solaris (Saab), Visual+ (Volvo) > engineers are like thousands of drivers passing through these intersections. > As the traffic gets heavy, those intersections will get bog down and another > intersections will be build to accomodate the throughput of the traffics. > But the Lexus, Mercedes, Saab and Volvo engineers will build more bigger, > faster and powerful sofisticated cars to get the most out of the > infrastructures and elicit more customers to learn how to drive their cars. Actually, to extend your analogy, I think the real problem is that there the world built WAY too many roads than needed. This is why there is such talk of a telco capacity glut. While Internet traffic was doubling every year, providers were building out as if traffic was doubling every 100 days. Couple that with the fact that carriers have essentially almost to a man have not figured out how to make money off the Internet. For example, consider the following quotes: "...we have the spectacle of three once powerful, "next gen" carriers in total collapse: UUNet as part of the WorldCom debacle, PSINet and Genuity. Makes no mistake: these bankruptcies are not the result of an economic downturn or solely due to corruption and fraud. Rather, as we have said before many times in many of our publications: the underlying carrier business models are fundamentally flawed...we are led to a conclusion that at this time there is no sound business model for the carrier side of the Internet. The carrier industry has come to an absolute dead-end under the current set of business models," http://www.proberesearch.com/alerts/2002/ipproblems.htm "...Where one of the alternative networks (again, the Internet) isn't profitable in the present, it undermines the whole premise of convergence. Why would the market move to select a network choice that doesn't make money even for the core services it's intended to provide? " http://www.networkmagazine.com/article/NMG20020930S0011/3 > > But the trouble is that the city is not expanding or get connected with > another cities (hats off to the mayor Bush). Without getting political, I think this is more the fault of a certain Mr. bin Laden. >Seems to me that there will be > plenty of fuel and asphalt to build the road and power the cars. But the > land is limited and more cars will be build to meet the insatiable consumer > appetite. But soon the automations will catch up with the demand and the > traffic officers will standing in his post like the Maytag technician. True indeed, networks and network engineering will become ordinary. > > Worst of all, more traffic officers will become increasingly territorial to > new and old alike. They will use the terms like 'ph'd' and 'lab rat' to > boost their egos and deter others who are trying to enter into their realm. Uh, here we must part company. I think you grant far too much power to some of us 'traffic officers'. The fact is if certain designations are considered good or bad, it is not because the old-timers say so, but because the free market says so. Holders of PhD's tend to make more money and suffer from less unemployment than nonholders of PhD's (all other things being equal) not because companies enjoy paying those PhD guys more (oh please please, take our money because we want to make less profit), but because on average those PhD holders tend to be scarcer and more productive. By the same token, 'lab-rat' CCIE's (and by that I mean people who have little to no experience as compared to the average CCIE) tend to be paid less and tend to suffer from more unemployment not because companies 'enjoy' screwing them but because it is widely acknowledged that those with less experience tend to be less productive than those with more experience. Simple as that. Therefore, as far as the term 'lab-rat' is concerned, the only thing that the older traffic officers did was give the phenomenom a name - basically those guys who had little or no experience working in actual production environments but somehow got their CCIE anyway were termed 'lab-rats'. But that's just a name. To quote Shakespeare: "What's in a name?" You can change the term from 'lab-rats' to 'lab-teddy bears' or whatever you want to call it. At the end of the day, it doesn't change a thing. The fact remains that, regardless of certification or lack thereof, those with less or no experience will on average have fewer/worse job prospects than those with more experience, and that's not because the old-timers are saying so but because the free market for labor says so. It's really as simple and as complicated as that. > > Yes, I love the challenge and that's what I'm doing right now. But I'll > seriously reconside
Re: CCIE Vs. Linux engineer (not Ph.d) [7:66669]
> Linux is very difficult to learn really well. True, CCIE lab equipment is > expensive, but I think it may take less time for some people to become a > CCIE than to get the kind of facility with Linux that the Linux-guru jobs > require. I think a far bigger problem with choosing Linux as a financially stable career is something you just hit on the head right there - barriers to entry. Financially speaking, there are none. Anybody can just piece together a couple of old PC's and fire up Linux and start learning. And right now, there are literally tens of thousands of high school and college kids playing with Linux - and, I don't want to sound morbid, but they're going to be your job competition in a few years. Do you really have much to work with if you know Linux, but so does every college student graduating with a CS degree in the future (and they will)? Not to mention all those people in countries like China, India, and Russia who are short on cash but long on brains and tenacity? That therefore means that if you want to remain employable in the Linux space, you will always need to stay ahead of the Jones's, and the Jones's in this case are obsessed high-school nerds who think it's actually fun to code for 100 hours a week. Hey, if you have the brains and the tenacity to keep pace, then more power to you. Or, if you happen to like Linux (I gotta admit, it is pretty cool), then by all means. But if you're seeing Linux just as an opportunity to make money, then unless you possess Herculean fortitude, I think you'll be disappointed. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=66732&t=9 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE Vs. Linux engineer (not Ph.d) [7:66669]
nrf you make an excellent point, as always. As an example, I just got a job (can you believe it in this economy? ;-) teaching at Southern Oregeon University. The networking classes don't have many people in them, partly because students know that the labs aren't great. We have some Cisco gear, which nobody had touched until I got there. I got a nice little lab up and running, but it's not really sufficient. We can't afford to get much more though. Now, on the other hand, the Linux classes are overflowing. And the Linux lab has litterally walls and walls of 133 MHz PCs all running Linux. The students gobble that stuff up. One of the Linux classes is at night over the dinner hour and it still gets an excellent turn-out. It doesn't matter to these students that the hour is inconvenient. Linux is more important than food, beer, family time, watching TV, or sleep. :-) You may not want to compete with these young 'uns, as nrf says. Stay ahead of the game and do what they don't have as much opportunity to do: networking, especially Cisco networking. Priscilla nrf wrote: > > > Linux is very difficult to learn really well. True, CCIE lab > equipment is > > expensive, but I think it may take less time for some people > to become a > > CCIE than to get the kind of facility with Linux that the > Linux-guru jobs > > require. > > I think a far bigger problem with choosing Linux as a > financially stable > career is something you just hit on the head right there - > barriers to > entry. Financially speaking, there are none. Anybody can just > piece > together a couple of old PC's and fire up Linux and start > learning. And > right now, there are literally tens of thousands of high school > and college > kids playing with Linux - and, I don't want to sound morbid, > but they're > going to be your job competition in a few years. Do you really > have much to > work with if you know Linux, but so does every college student > graduating > with a CS degree in the future (and they will)? Not to > mention all those > people in countries like China, India, and Russia who are short > on cash but > long on brains and tenacity? > > That therefore means that if you want to remain employable in > the Linux > space, you will always need to stay ahead of the Jones's, and > the Jones's in > this case are obsessed high-school nerds who think it's > actually fun to code > for 100 hours a week. Hey, if you have the brains and the > tenacity to keep > pace, then more power to you. Or, if you happen to like Linux > (I gotta > admit, it is pretty cool), then by all means. But if you're > seeing Linux > just as an opportunity to make money, then unless you possess > Herculean > fortitude, I think you'll be disappointed. > > Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=66760&t=9 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: CCIE Vs. Linux engineer (not Ph.d) [7:66669]
Always glad to see genuin professionals in the same boat. You folks truely raise the standard in the networking industry. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=66890&t=9 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE Vs. Linux engineer (not Ph.d) [7:66669]
I think I can add my 5 cents in here. I believe any certification is good the more you have the broader range of knowledge you will have. I believe the Cisco certification is great and I grade it at the top, the reason is the broad range of knowledge. The telecom world is huge and just knowing all the standards can take you a lifetime - if you like to take this challenge! I have looked at the Linux certification, and I guess you need to put attention at what is offered. From what I have seen there are various Linux certifications - the typical the one is the Linux Configuration + Administration. There seems to be lots of courses in this area, but it does not pay as good or is as hard as the Cisco (CCIE) certification - on my humble opinion. The high paying jobs I have seen for Linux relate to programming and good knowledge of the OS and its administration. This is like having a MCSE + MCSD in the Windows world. I guess my suggestion is that choose what you like to do first, then research the market place for the proper solution. I'm not a CCIE yet and I only have a CCNP, but I have been involved in lots of application troubleshooting projects. I can tell you one thing, the knowledge you acquire at the TCP/IP level is amazing. With little extra research and study on the TCP protocols and sockets I have been able to explain and troubleshoot applications that even the developers them selves have not realized. The reason is that there is very few application developers that go into network or socket level programming, so the effects of latency, bandwidth, and load kills their application once they are deployed over the WAN. All said I think you should have both. In my case I'm going to concentrate on the CCIE, but I would also like to keep a good knowledge of some OS - not to become an expert though. I saw in one of your emails that you also like a challenge -- well you can try in combination with the CCIE the "Telecommunication Engineer Certification" by www.narte.org that should give you plenty to study ;-) Good luck! - Original Message - From: "Mic shoeps" To: Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 5:01 PM Subject: RE: CCIE Vs. Linux engineer (not Ph.d) [7:9] > Always glad to see genuin professionals in the same boat. You folks truely > raise the standard in the networking industry. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=66921&t=9 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE Vs. Linux engineer (not Ph.d) [7:66669]
If I may... I've had my CCNP for some time now and am trying to work towards the IE. This year, my company put out a new product which requires a Linux platform on the network. Since I am in the Operations side of the house, I was sent to Red Hat training to support it. The Final Course was the RH300 which includes the RHCE test at the end. It is a one day, performanced based, test. The test was good. It was certainly challenging. But my Linux experience goes back only a month prior to the test, since I didn't touch it until I found out I would be sent to training, and I passed. Granted it was the by the "skin of my teeth" but I passed. How many could pass the CCIE lab while having only a month of experience? After having gone through all of this, my thoughts are thus. Unless you have to be a jack of all trades, don't waste your time. Cisco and Linux, although using one sometimes requires the use of the other, are really two different worlds. The time you spend on Linux is time that could have been spent trying to become Priscilla or Howard :) I also think nrf could not have been more correct about the upcoming generation both being able to skunk the rest of us on Linux due to their recreation time spent coding as well as their inabiluty/lack of desire to learn networking. If you really desire to become a sysadmin, go for it. Otherwise. Adam Senior Network Engineer Pac-West Telecomm, Inc. - Original Message - From: "Tommy Bartus" To: Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2003 7:58 AM Subject: Re: CCIE Vs. Linux engineer (not Ph.d) [7:9] > I think I can add my 5 cents in here. I believe any certification is good > the more you have the broader range of knowledge you will have. I believe > the Cisco certification is great and I grade it at the top, the reason is > the broad range of knowledge. The telecom world is huge and just knowing all > the standards can take you a lifetime - if you like to take this challenge! > > > > I have looked at the Linux certification, and I guess you need to put > attention at what is offered. From what I have seen there are various Linux > certifications - the typical the one is the Linux Configuration + > Administration. There seems to be lots of courses in this area, but it does > not pay as good or is as hard as the Cisco (CCIE) certification - on my > humble opinion. The high paying jobs I have seen for Linux relate to > programming and good knowledge of the OS and its administration. This is > like having a MCSE + MCSD in the Windows world. I guess my suggestion is > that choose what you like to do first, then research the market place for > the proper solution. > > > > I'm not a CCIE yet and I only have a CCNP, but I have been involved in lots > of application troubleshooting projects. I can tell you one thing, the > knowledge you acquire at the TCP/IP level is amazing. With little extra > research and study on the TCP protocols and sockets I have been able to > explain and troubleshoot applications that even the developers them selves > have not realized. The reason is that there is very few application > developers that go into network or socket level programming, so the effects > of latency, bandwidth, and load kills their application once they are > deployed over the WAN. > > > > All said I think you should have both. In my case I'm going to concentrate > on the CCIE, but I would also like to keep a good knowledge of some OS - not > to become an expert though. > > > > I saw in one of your emails that you also like a challenge -- well you can > try in combination with the CCIE the "Telecommunication Engineer > Certification" by www.narte.org that should give you plenty to study ;-) > > > > Good luck! > > > > - Original Message - > From: "Mic shoeps" > To: > Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 5:01 PM > Subject: RE: CCIE Vs. Linux engineer (not Ph.d) [7:9] > > > > Always glad to see genuin professionals in the same boat. You folks truely > > raise the standard in the networking industry. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=66932&t=9 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
