Certification Ego! (was Failed CCDA) [7:1929]
One thing that I ALWAYS notice when asking someone else for advice is that they ALWAYS advise me to take the same path that they did. No matter how dissimilar out situations are, I will always be advised to take the same route that they took. For example, when I was finishing up with my CCNP certification, I asked for advise from several other people who also were finishing their CCNP certifications. A few of the people that I asked were MCSE's and they all told me to go for MCSE before CCIE. Their reasoning was that I wouldn't be able to understand the WAN unless I had a solid understanding of the LAN. Now I do think that there is some logic to this statement, but I definitely did not think that it made sense to put CCIE on hold for 5-6 months just to learn more about Microsoft. I think their real reasons for giving me such crappy advice is that they're afraid to admit that they made a mistake. If they suddenly realized that they wasted 7 months learning about Microsoft, would they be willing to admit this? I really doubt it! They would tell me to do what they did so they can boost their own egos! Or on the other hand, they wouldn't tell me not to do what they did because they would hurt theie egos. So now, instead of blindingly taking someone's advice, I take a realistic look at all of my options. Being only 20 years old, I was advised by many "experienced professionals" to give it a few years before attempting the CCIE. Does it really take that long to learn all this stuff? I really don't think so. There is an abundance of information out there, and all you have to do is put in the extra effort to learn it. Heck, I didn't even know what a Router was until about 7 months ago, and I already have CCNA, CCDA, CCNP, and CCIE written. My point here is, don't listen to anyone that isn't in the same situation as you! Take a realistic look at your options and go for it! Fred Danson P.S. - I have a problem with the statement "youth is a unique illnes that heals with time only". From what I hear, the older portion of the CCIE candidates typically struggle with the time constraints on the CCIE Lab. To my knowledge, cheese and wine are the things that improve with age. They may have the wisdom, but you got the speed. Go for it! >From: "Ruben Arias" >Reply-To: "Ruben Arias" >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Subject: Re: Failed CCDA [7:1865] >Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 10:09:11 -0400 > >we're not offended because of your age, we're scared to death... >by the way, youth is a unique illnes that heals with time only. >Ruben >_ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. >FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: >http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html >Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=1929&t=1929 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Certification Ego! (was Failed CCDA) [7:1929]
Ahh, to be young again. -- James Haynes Network Architect Cendant IT A+,MCSE,CCNA,CCDA,CCNP,CCDP ""Fred Danson"" wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > One thing that I ALWAYS notice when asking someone else for advice is that > they ALWAYS advise me to take the same path that they did. No matter how > dissimilar out situations are, I will always be advised to take the same > route that they took. > > For example, when I was finishing up with my CCNP certification, I asked for > advise from several other people who also were finishing their CCNP > certifications. A few of the people that I asked were MCSE's and they all > told me to go for MCSE before CCIE. Their reasoning was that I wouldn't be > able to understand the WAN unless I had a solid understanding of the LAN. > Now I do think that there is some logic to this statement, but I definitely > did not think that it made sense to put CCIE on hold for 5-6 months just to > learn more about Microsoft. > > I think their real reasons for giving me such crappy advice is that they're > afraid to admit that they made a mistake. If they suddenly realized that > they wasted 7 months learning about Microsoft, would they be willing to > admit this? I really doubt it! They would tell me to do what they did so > they can boost their own egos! Or on the other hand, they wouldn't tell me > not to do what they did because they would hurt theie egos. > > So now, instead of blindingly taking someone's advice, I take a realistic > look at all of my options. Being only 20 years old, I was advised by many > "experienced professionals" to give it a few years before attempting the > CCIE. Does it really take that long to learn all this stuff? I really don't > think so. There is an abundance of information out there, and all you have > to do is put in the extra effort to learn it. Heck, I didn't even know what > a Router was until about 7 months ago, and I already have CCNA, CCDA, CCNP, > and CCIE written. > > My point here is, don't listen to anyone that isn't in the same situation as > you! Take a realistic look at your options and go for it! > > Fred Danson > > P.S. - I have a problem with the statement "youth is a unique illnes that > heals with time only". From what I hear, the older portion of the CCIE > candidates typically struggle with the time constraints on the CCIE Lab. To > my knowledge, cheese and wine are the things that improve with age. They may > have the wisdom, but you got the speed. Go for it! > > > > >From: "Ruben Arias" > >Reply-To: "Ruben Arias" > >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Subject: Re: Failed CCDA [7:1865] > >Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 10:09:11 -0400 > > > >we're not offended because of your age, we're scared to death... > >by the way, youth is a unique illnes that heals with time only. > >Ruben > >_ > >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > >FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: > >http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html > >Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > _ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html > Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=1935&t=1929 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Certification Ego! (was Failed CCDA) [7:1929]
and perhaps foolish again. > P.S. - I have a problem with the statement "youth is a unique illnes that > heals with time only". From what I hear, the older portion of the CCIE > candidates typically struggle with the time constraints on the CCIE Lab. >To my knowledge, cheese and wine are the things that improve with age. >They may have the wisdom, but you got the speed. Go for it! Please tell us when you pass the lab and present your number to us so we can compare your attitude today and your attitude "after". Don't forget to let us know about the times you fail the lab too - just to keep the discussion in context. Kevin Wigle CCDP CCNP CSE MCSE CBE CBI the CCNA and CCDA too MCP and CBS someplace ..geesh - I'm an old fart! - Original Message - From: "James Haynes" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 3:19 PM Subject: Re: Certification Ego! (was Failed CCDA) [7:1929] > Ahh, to be young again. > > -- > James Haynes > Network Architect > Cendant IT > A+,MCSE,CCNA,CCDA,CCNP,CCDP > > ""Fred Danson"" wrote in message > [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > One thing that I ALWAYS notice when asking someone else for advice is that > > they ALWAYS advise me to take the same path that they did. No matter how > > dissimilar out situations are, I will always be advised to take the same > > route that they took. > > > > For example, when I was finishing up with my CCNP certification, I asked > for > > advise from several other people who also were finishing their CCNP > > certifications. A few of the people that I asked were MCSE's and they all > > told me to go for MCSE before CCIE. Their reasoning was that I wouldn't be > > able to understand the WAN unless I had a solid understanding of the LAN. > > Now I do think that there is some logic to this statement, but I > definitely > > did not think that it made sense to put CCIE on hold for 5-6 months just > to > > learn more about Microsoft. > > > > I think their real reasons for giving me such crappy advice is that > they're > > afraid to admit that they made a mistake. If they suddenly realized that > > they wasted 7 months learning about Microsoft, would they be willing to > > admit this? I really doubt it! They would tell me to do what they did so > > they can boost their own egos! Or on the other hand, they wouldn't tell me > > not to do what they did because they would hurt theie egos. > > > > So now, instead of blindingly taking someone's advice, I take a realistic > > look at all of my options. Being only 20 years old, I was advised by many > > "experienced professionals" to give it a few years before attempting the > > CCIE. Does it really take that long to learn all this stuff? I really > don't > > think so. There is an abundance of information out there, and all you have > > to do is put in the extra effort to learn it. Heck, I didn't even know > what > > a Router was until about 7 months ago, and I already have CCNA, CCDA, > CCNP, > > and CCIE written. > > > > My point here is, don't listen to anyone that isn't in the same situation > as > > you! Take a realistic look at your options and go for it! > > > > Fred Danson > > > > P.S. - I have a problem with the statement "youth is a unique illnes that > > heals with time only". From what I hear, the older portion of the CCIE > > candidates typically struggle with the time constraints on the CCIE Lab. > To > > my knowledge, cheese and wine are the things that improve with age. They > may > > have the wisdom, but you got the speed. Go for it! > > > > > > > > >From: "Ruben Arias" > > >Reply-To: "Ruben Arias" > > >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > >Subject: Re: Failed CCDA [7:1865] > > >Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 10:09:11 -0400 > > > > > >we're not offended because of your age, we're scared to death... > > >by the way, youth is a unique illnes that heals with time only. > > >Ruben > > >_ > > >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > >FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: > > >http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html > > >Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > _ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: > http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html > > Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html > Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=1945&t=1929 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Certification Ego! (was Failed CCDA) [7:1929]
I agree with taking your own way but I do not agree that an MCSE is crap. Like it or not, the majority of businesses out there have NT or Windows of some flavor on their network. Especially on the workstation end! It's very rare to find an all non-Microsoft workplace. The knowledge and certification are a plus in 99% of the workplace. My MCSE got me a job that paid $20K more/year. Best investment I've made so far. And now I'm working with mostly PIX firewalls and FreeBSD servers but we still have customers running NT. Having Windows certification AND alternative operating system experience is an even bigger plus. Microsoft isn't going anywhere (at least for a looong time). Also, you don't need to go for MCSE. Just take an operating system exam and LAN related (TCP/IP, security, etc) elective along with Networking Essentials (this may have all changed in the new trek so I'm not sure the exact courses) and bam...MCP along with LAN/WAN and all you had to touch on Windows was one Microsoft O/S of your choice. You can always learn LAN/WAN in your own way but you might as well come out of it with a certification if it's as cheap as taking 3 tests. On another note..I haven't found an O/S I like YET! Microsoft - BSOD Macintosh - System bomb replaced BSOD *nix - hard to learn and even harder to learn to troubleshoot (not user friendly) AS/400 - (got a spare $50K to buy a bottom of the line system to learn on??) RS/6000 - (got a spare $500K??) hehe...my donation of 2 cents back to the community. - Original Message - From: "Fred Danson" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 1:55 PM Subject: Certification Ego! (was Failed CCDA) [7:1929] > One thing that I ALWAYS notice when asking someone else for advice is that > they ALWAYS advise me to take the same path that they did. No matter how > dissimilar out situations are, I will always be advised to take the same > route that they took. > > For example, when I was finishing up with my CCNP certification, I asked for > advise from several other people who also were finishing their CCNP > certifications. A few of the people that I asked were MCSE's and they all > told me to go for MCSE before CCIE. Their reasoning was that I wouldn't be > able to understand the WAN unless I had a solid understanding of the LAN. > Now I do think that there is some logic to this statement, but I definitely > did not think that it made sense to put CCIE on hold for 5-6 months just to > learn more about Microsoft. > > I think their real reasons for giving me such crappy advice is that they're > afraid to admit that they made a mistake. If they suddenly realized that > they wasted 7 months learning about Microsoft, would they be willing to > admit this? I really doubt it! They would tell me to do what they did so > they can boost their own egos! Or on the other hand, they wouldn't tell me > not to do what they did because they would hurt theie egos. > > So now, instead of blindingly taking someone's advice, I take a realistic > look at all of my options. Being only 20 years old, I was advised by many > "experienced professionals" to give it a few years before attempting the > CCIE. Does it really take that long to learn all this stuff? I really don't > think so. There is an abundance of information out there, and all you have > to do is put in the extra effort to learn it. Heck, I didn't even know what > a Router was until about 7 months ago, and I already have CCNA, CCDA, CCNP, > and CCIE written. > > My point here is, don't listen to anyone that isn't in the same situation as > you! Take a realistic look at your options and go for it! > > Fred Danson > > P.S. - I have a problem with the statement "youth is a unique illnes that > heals with time only". From what I hear, the older portion of the CCIE > candidates typically struggle with the time constraints on the CCIE Lab. To > my knowledge, cheese and wine are the things that improve with age. They may > have the wisdom, but you got the speed. Go for it! > > > > >From: "Ruben Arias" > >Reply-To: "Ruben Arias" > >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Subject: Re: Failed CCDA [7:1865] > >Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 10:09:11 -0400 > > > >we're not offended because of your age, we're scared to death... > >by the way, youth is a unique illnes that heals with time only. > >Ruben > >_ > >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > >FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: > >http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html > >Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EM
Re: Certification Ego! (was Failed CCDA) [7:1929]
I won't argue that it's always wise to follow what other people did, but I will make a few points. First is that unless you know at least a very good entry-level knowledge of networking beyond the Cisco product line, you're not very useful. A CCIE who has never touched NT or Unix, bah, I don't see a huge value. I guess it varies on what you're doing and wanting to do, but for me, 70% of my time is spent helping a customer figure out what in the world they need me to do with the routers. I had a customer today that was going to deploy a DHCP server on each subnet because they didn't understand any other way to do it. If I didn't know NetWare DHCP and NT DHCP servers, I wouldn't have been able to help them today beyond just saying "configure you DHCP server for scopes for those subnets." Yes, I know how to do the "ip helper-address," but unless they can configure their DHCP servers, that knowledge doesn't do much. As it is, I spent 15 minutes explaining how the whole thing would work, and then the rest of the day configuring scopes and then finally implementing "ip helper-address" on all the necessary interfaces. So, I do think it's necessary to have a good foundation in various areas. No, you don't need a paper cert to have that experience, but if you're going to learn it and can chase down certs, you might as well so that you've got proof to show customers who go bug-eyed at certs. It's like that commercial (I think IBM does it), where two consulting guys are telling this high-up exec a huge list of things he should implement. He listens (clueless, of course), and says, "Great, do it!" to which they reply something like, "Oh, we don't do anything, we just give consulting as what you need to do." Tomorrow I will be explaining to a customer why they need to not permit all DMZ traffic into their Internal LAN, and what changes they'll have to make on their servers, including, but not limited to, DNS and WINS. I don't think there is anything in Cisco's line that will test you on those topics. I know for me, the CCIE is not the "ultimate," but it's pretty damn high up there. I have doubts I'll go back and upgrade my MCSE to Win2k if I get my CCIE and can avoid it. I guess my point is once you get to a certain level, you're less likely to want to go back and do the things that would help you more as they seem of a lesser value or skill set. I do know that I won't be doing my CNE, but then I doubt those who don't have to deal with Novell on a daily basis see it as useful these days. -- Jason Roysdon, CCNP+Security/CCDP, MCSE, CNA, Network+, A+ List email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Homepage: http://jason.artoo.net/ ""Fred Danson"" wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > One thing that I ALWAYS notice when asking someone else for advice is that > they ALWAYS advise me to take the same path that they did. No matter how > dissimilar out situations are, I will always be advised to take the same > route that they took. > > For example, when I was finishing up with my CCNP certification, I asked for > advise from several other people who also were finishing their CCNP > certifications. A few of the people that I asked were MCSE's and they all > told me to go for MCSE before CCIE. Their reasoning was that I wouldn't be > able to understand the WAN unless I had a solid understanding of the LAN. > Now I do think that there is some logic to this statement, but I definitely > did not think that it made sense to put CCIE on hold for 5-6 months just to > learn more about Microsoft. > > I think their real reasons for giving me such crappy advice is that they're > afraid to admit that they made a mistake. If they suddenly realized that > they wasted 7 months learning about Microsoft, would they be willing to > admit this? I really doubt it! They would tell me to do what they did so > they can boost their own egos! Or on the other hand, they wouldn't tell me > not to do what they did because they would hurt theie egos. > > So now, instead of blindingly taking someone's advice, I take a realistic > look at all of my options. Being only 20 years old, I was advised by many > "experienced professionals" to give it a few years before attempting the > CCIE. Does it really take that long to learn all this stuff? I really don't > think so. There is an abundance of information out there, and all you have > to do is put in the extra effort to learn it. Heck, I didn't even know what > a Router was until about 7 months ago, and I already have CCNA, CCDA, CCNP, > and CCIE written. > > My point here is, don't listen to anyone that isn't in the same situation as > you! Take a realistic look at your options and go for it! > > Fred Danson > > P.S. - I have a problem with the statement "youth is a unique illnes that > heals with time only". From what I hear, the older portion of the CCIE > candidates typically struggle with the time constraints on the CCIE Lab. To > my knowledge, cheese and wine are the things
Re: Certification Ego! (was Failed CCDA) [7:1929]
I do agree with you on many points Jason, but not all networking jobs deal with the LAN. Eventually, I do plan to learn about Microsoft. UNIX, Ect But being in my current situation, my best course of action would be to work on the CCIE. In my earlier writing I was trying to emphasize the point that there are many paths to take, but there is only one best path. I could choose to work on learning the LAN now, but it is my belief that working towards the CCIE would benefit me the most in the long run. I definitely do not plan to just get the CCIE and then avoid the LAN alltogether. That wouldn't be a very wise move. It's common knowledge that any lab-certified CCIE is pretty much guaranteed six figures. In some cases companies recruit CCIE's just to achieve silver or gold status with Cisco. Also, many positions within ISP's do not require any LAN experience. Fred >From: "Jason J. Roysdon" >Reply-To: "Jason J. Roysdon" >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Subject: Re: Certification Ego! (was Failed CCDA) [7:1929] >Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 20:27:43 -0400 > >I won't argue that it's always wise to follow what other people did, but I >will make a few points. > >First is that unless you know at least a very good entry-level knowledge of >networking beyond the Cisco product line, you're not very useful. A CCIE >who has never touched NT or Unix, bah, I don't see a huge value. > >I guess it varies on what you're doing and wanting to do, but for me, 70% >of >my time is spent helping a customer figure out what in the world they need >me to do with the routers. I had a customer today that was going to deploy >a DHCP server on each subnet because they didn't understand any other way >to >do it. If I didn't know NetWare DHCP and NT DHCP servers, I wouldn't have >been able to help them today beyond just saying "configure you DHCP server >for scopes for those subnets." Yes, I know how to do the "ip >helper-address," but unless they can configure their DHCP servers, that >knowledge doesn't do much. As it is, I spent 15 minutes explaining how the >whole thing would work, and then the rest of the day configuring scopes and >then finally implementing "ip helper-address" on all the necessary >interfaces. > >So, I do think it's necessary to have a good foundation in various areas. >No, you don't need a paper cert to have that experience, but if you're >going >to learn it and can chase down certs, you might as well so that you've got >proof to show customers who go bug-eyed at certs. > >It's like that commercial (I think IBM does it), where two consulting guys >are telling this high-up exec a huge list of things he should implement. >He >listens (clueless, of course), and says, "Great, do it!" to which they >reply >something like, "Oh, we don't do anything, we just give consulting as what >you need to do." > >Tomorrow I will be explaining to a customer why they need to not permit all >DMZ traffic into their Internal LAN, and what changes they'll have to make >on their servers, including, but not limited to, DNS and WINS. I don't >think there is anything in Cisco's line that will test you on those topics. > >I know for me, the CCIE is not the "ultimate," but it's pretty damn high up >there. I have doubts I'll go back and upgrade my MCSE to Win2k if I get my >CCIE and can avoid it. I guess my point is once you get to a certain >level, >you're less likely to want to go back and do the things that would help you >more as they seem of a lesser value or skill set. I do know that I won't >be >doing my CNE, but then I doubt those who don't have to deal with Novell on >a >daily basis see it as useful these days. > >-- >Jason Roysdon, CCNP+Security/CCDP, MCSE, CNA, Network+, A+ >List email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Homepage: http://jason.artoo.net/ > > > >""Fred Danson"" wrote in message >[EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > > One thing that I ALWAYS notice when asking someone else for advice is >that > > they ALWAYS advise me to take the same path that they did. No matter how > > dissimilar out situations are, I will always be advised to take the same > > route that they took. > > > > For example, when I was finishing up with my CCNP certification, I asked >for > > advise from several other people who also were finishing their CCNP > > certifications. A few of the people that I asked were MCSE's and they >all > > told me to go for MCSE before CCIE. Their reasoning was that I wouldn't >be > &
Re: Certification Ego! (was Failed CCDA) [7:1929]
However those days are practically gone. With the recent restructuring of the Channel program which reduces the amount of CCIE's by up to 75% for Gold and Silver partners - just being a CCIE won't be enough. Your resume will have to show accomplishment and ability, and be a CCIE. Kevin Wigle - Original Message - From: "Fred Danson" To: Sent: Wednesday, 25 April, 2001 21:04 Subject: Re: Certification Ego! (was Failed CCDA) [7:1929] > I do agree with you on many points Jason, but not all networking jobs deal > with the LAN. Eventually, I do plan to learn about Microsoft. UNIX, Ect > But being in my current situation, my best course of action would be to work > on the CCIE. > > In my earlier writing I was trying to emphasize the point that there are > many paths to take, but there is only one best path. I could choose to work > on learning the LAN now, but it is my belief that working towards the CCIE > would benefit me the most in the long run. I definitely do not plan to just > get the CCIE and then avoid the LAN alltogether. That wouldn't be a very > wise move. > > It's common knowledge that any lab-certified CCIE is pretty much guaranteed > six figures. In some cases companies recruit CCIE's just to achieve silver > or gold status with Cisco. Also, many positions within ISP's do not require > any LAN experience. > > Fred > > > >From: "Jason J. Roysdon" > >Reply-To: "Jason J. Roysdon" > >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Subject: Re: Certification Ego! (was Failed CCDA) [7:1929] > >Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 20:27:43 -0400 > > > >I won't argue that it's always wise to follow what other people did, but I > >will make a few points. > > > >First is that unless you know at least a very good entry-level knowledge of > >networking beyond the Cisco product line, you're not very useful. A CCIE > >who has never touched NT or Unix, bah, I don't see a huge value. > > > >I guess it varies on what you're doing and wanting to do, but for me, 70% > >of > >my time is spent helping a customer figure out what in the world they need > >me to do with the routers. I had a customer today that was going to deploy > >a DHCP server on each subnet because they didn't understand any other way > >to > >do it. If I didn't know NetWare DHCP and NT DHCP servers, I wouldn't have > >been able to help them today beyond just saying "configure you DHCP server > >for scopes for those subnets." Yes, I know how to do the "ip > >helper-address," but unless they can configure their DHCP servers, that > >knowledge doesn't do much. As it is, I spent 15 minutes explaining how the > >whole thing would work, and then the rest of the day configuring scopes and > >then finally implementing "ip helper-address" on all the necessary > >interfaces. > > > >So, I do think it's necessary to have a good foundation in various areas. > >No, you don't need a paper cert to have that experience, but if you're > >going > >to learn it and can chase down certs, you might as well so that you've got > >proof to show customers who go bug-eyed at certs. > > > >It's like that commercial (I think IBM does it), where two consulting guys > >are telling this high-up exec a huge list of things he should implement. > >He > >listens (clueless, of course), and says, "Great, do it!" to which they > >reply > >something like, "Oh, we don't do anything, we just give consulting as what > >you need to do." > > > >Tomorrow I will be explaining to a customer why they need to not permit all > >DMZ traffic into their Internal LAN, and what changes they'll have to make > >on their servers, including, but not limited to, DNS and WINS. I don't > >think there is anything in Cisco's line that will test you on those topics. > > > >I know for me, the CCIE is not the "ultimate," but it's pretty damn high up > >there. I have doubts I'll go back and upgrade my MCSE to Win2k if I get my > >CCIE and can avoid it. I guess my point is once you get to a certain > >level, > >you're less likely to want to go back and do the things that would help you > >more as they seem of a lesser value or skill set. I do know that I won't > >be > >doing my CNE, but then I doubt those who don't have to deal with Novell on > >a > >daily basis see it as useful these days. > > > >-- > >Jason Roysdon, CCNP+Security/CCDP, MCSE, CNA, Network+, A+ > >List emai
Re: Certification Ego! (was Failed CCDA) [7:1929]
I do agree with you there. Cisco's restructuring of its partner program will decrease the demand for CCIE. It probably isn't as easy these days for all new CCIE's to start with 6 figure salaries. As far as showing accomplishment and ability, doesn't obtaining the CCIE certification show exactly that? Being a part of this small elite group is a major accomplishment, and requires incredible skill to achieve. So doesn't this certification prove that the person has what it takes? Fred >From: "Kevin Wigle" >To: "Fred Danson" , >Subject: Re: Certification Ego! (was Failed CCDA) [7:1929] >Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 21:22:45 -0400 > >However those days are practically gone. > >With the recent restructuring of the Channel program which reduces the >amount of CCIE's by up to 75% for Gold and Silver partners - just being a >CCIE won't be enough. > >Your resume will have to show accomplishment and ability, and be a CCIE. > >Kevin Wigle > >- Original Message ----- >From: "Fred Danson" >To: >Sent: Wednesday, 25 April, 2001 21:04 >Subject: Re: Certification Ego! (was Failed CCDA) [7:1929] > > > > I do agree with you on many points Jason, but not all networking jobs >deal > > with the LAN. Eventually, I do plan to learn about Microsoft. UNIX, >Ect > > But being in my current situation, my best course of action would be to >work > > on the CCIE. > > > > In my earlier writing I was trying to emphasize the point that there are > > many paths to take, but there is only one best path. I could choose to >work > > on learning the LAN now, but it is my belief that working towards the >CCIE > > would benefit me the most in the long run. I definitely do not plan to >just > > get the CCIE and then avoid the LAN alltogether. That wouldn't be a very > > wise move. > > > > It's common knowledge that any lab-certified CCIE is pretty much >guaranteed > > six figures. In some cases companies recruit CCIE's just to achieve >silver > > or gold status with Cisco. Also, many positions within ISP's do not >require > > any LAN experience. > > > > Fred > > > > > > >From: "Jason J. Roysdon" > > >Reply-To: "Jason J. Roysdon" > > >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > >Subject: Re: Certification Ego! (was Failed CCDA) [7:1929] > > >Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 20:27:43 -0400 > > > > > >I won't argue that it's always wise to follow what other people did, >but >I > > >will make a few points. > > > > > >First is that unless you know at least a very good entry-level >knowledge >of > > >networking beyond the Cisco product line, you're not very useful. A >CCIE > > >who has never touched NT or Unix, bah, I don't see a huge value. > > > > > >I guess it varies on what you're doing and wanting to do, but for me, >70% > > >of > > >my time is spent helping a customer figure out what in the world they >need > > >me to do with the routers. I had a customer today that was going to >deploy > > >a DHCP server on each subnet because they didn't understand any other >way > > >to > > >do it. If I didn't know NetWare DHCP and NT DHCP servers, I wouldn't >have > > >been able to help them today beyond just saying "configure you DHCP >server > > >for scopes for those subnets." Yes, I know how to do the "ip > > >helper-address," but unless they can configure their DHCP servers, that > > >knowledge doesn't do much. As it is, I spent 15 minutes explaining how >the > > >whole thing would work, and then the rest of the day configuring scopes >and > > >then finally implementing "ip helper-address" on all the necessary > > >interfaces. > > > > > >So, I do think it's necessary to have a good foundation in various >areas. > > >No, you don't need a paper cert to have that experience, but if you're > > >going > > >to learn it and can chase down certs, you might as well so that you've >got > > >proof to show customers who go bug-eyed at certs. > > > > > >It's like that commercial (I think IBM does it), where two consulting >guys > > >are telling this high-up exec a huge list of things he should >implement. > > >He > > >listens (clueless, of course), and says, "Great, do it!" to which they > > >reply > > >something like, "Oh, we don
Re: Certification Ego! (was Failed CCDA) [7:1929]
Yes of course it does - at least that's what we're hoping. However, we've heard on this list that there are a "few" CCIEs out there that aren't exactly up to par. Whether you believe that or not is a personal thing I guess but I tend to think that as a group, as with any group - there are CCIEs and then there are CCIEs. My point being is that I think the automatic "halo" has dimmed somewhat. So even if someone is a CCIE. if two CCIEs apply for the job - which one gets it? Back to the resume and then experience will break the tie. (as well as the interview - the "fit" into the corporate culture - blah blah blah) Kevin Wigle - Original Message - From: "Fred Danson" To: Sent: Wednesday, 25 April, 2001 21:39 Subject: Re: Certification Ego! (was Failed CCDA) [7:1929] > I do agree with you there. Cisco's restructuring of its partner program will > decrease the demand for CCIE. It probably isn't as easy these days for all > new CCIE's to start with 6 figure salaries. > > As far as showing accomplishment and ability, doesn't obtaining the CCIE > certification show exactly that? Being a part of this small elite group is a > major accomplishment, and requires incredible skill to achieve. So doesn't > this certification prove that the person has what it takes? > > Fred > > > > > >From: "Kevin Wigle" > >To: "Fred Danson" , > >Subject: Re: Certification Ego! (was Failed CCDA) [7:1929] > >Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 21:22:45 -0400 > > > >However those days are practically gone. > > > >With the recent restructuring of the Channel program which reduces the > >amount of CCIE's by up to 75% for Gold and Silver partners - just being a > >CCIE won't be enough. > > > >Your resume will have to show accomplishment and ability, and be a CCIE. > > > >Kevin Wigle > > > >- Original Message - > >From: "Fred Danson" > >To: > >Sent: Wednesday, 25 April, 2001 21:04 > >Subject: Re: Certification Ego! (was Failed CCDA) [7:1929] > > > > > > > I do agree with you on many points Jason, but not all networking jobs > >deal > > > with the LAN. Eventually, I do plan to learn about Microsoft. UNIX, > >Ect > > > But being in my current situation, my best course of action would be to > >work > > > on the CCIE. > > > > > > In my earlier writing I was trying to emphasize the point that there are > > > many paths to take, but there is only one best path. I could choose to > >work > > > on learning the LAN now, but it is my belief that working towards the > >CCIE > > > would benefit me the most in the long run. I definitely do not plan to > >just > > > get the CCIE and then avoid the LAN alltogether. That wouldn't be a very > > > wise move. > > > > > > It's common knowledge that any lab-certified CCIE is pretty much > >guaranteed > > > six figures. In some cases companies recruit CCIE's just to achieve > >silver > > > or gold status with Cisco. Also, many positions within ISP's do not > >require > > > any LAN experience. > > > > > > Fred > > > > > > > > > >From: "Jason J. Roysdon" > > > >Reply-To: "Jason J. Roysdon" > > > >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > >Subject: Re: Certification Ego! (was Failed CCDA) [7:1929] > > > >Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 20:27:43 -0400 > > > > > > > >I won't argue that it's always wise to follow what other people did, > >but > >I > > > >will make a few points. > > > > > > > >First is that unless you know at least a very good entry-level > >knowledge > >of > > > >networking beyond the Cisco product line, you're not very useful. A > >CCIE > > > >who has never touched NT or Unix, bah, I don't see a huge value. > > > > > > > >I guess it varies on what you're doing and wanting to do, but for me, > >70% > > > >of > > > >my time is spent helping a customer figure out what in the world they > >need > > > >me to do with the routers. I had a customer today that was going to > >deploy > > > >a DHCP server on each subnet because they didn't understand any other > >way > > > >to > > > >do it. If I didn't know NetWare DHCP and NT DHCP servers, I wouldn't > >have > > > >been able to help them toda
Re: Certification Ego! (was Failed CCDA) [7:1929]
My question is how in 7 months you were able to get CCNA, CCDA, CCNP, and CCIE written? I am finishing up my degree right now and I barely had enough time to study for CCNA. After all degree, certifications it is just paper. With the right amount of time and determination anyone can read a book and pass a test. Experience - makes all the difference. I would also have to agree with the people that said that you should get knowledge and experience with Microsoft, Novell. I think that if you really want to be a network tech. you should know all the aspects of networking: routers, servers, workstations, etc.. -- Kind regards, Alexander N. Khramov, CCNA Student Technical Consultant NSU, Computing and Telecommunications [EMAIL PROTECTED] ""Fred Danson"" wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... > One thing that I ALWAYS notice when asking someone else for advice is that > they ALWAYS advise me to take the same path that they did. No matter how > dissimilar out situations are, I will always be advised to take the same > route that they took. > > For example, when I was finishing up with my CCNP certification, I asked for > advise from several other people who also were finishing their CCNP > certifications. A few of the people that I asked were MCSE's and they all > told me to go for MCSE before CCIE. Their reasoning was that I wouldn't be > able to understand the WAN unless I had a solid understanding of the LAN. > Now I do think that there is some logic to this statement, but I definitely > did not think that it made sense to put CCIE on hold for 5-6 months just to > learn more about Microsoft. > > I think their real reasons for giving me such crappy advice is that they're > afraid to admit that they made a mistake. If they suddenly realized that > they wasted 7 months learning about Microsoft, would they be willing to > admit this? I really doubt it! They would tell me to do what they did so > they can boost their own egos! Or on the other hand, they wouldn't tell me > not to do what they did because they would hurt theie egos. > > So now, instead of blindingly taking someone's advice, I take a realistic > look at all of my options. Being only 20 years old, I was advised by many > "experienced professionals" to give it a few years before attempting the > CCIE. Does it really take that long to learn all this stuff? I really don't > think so. There is an abundance of information out there, and all you have > to do is put in the extra effort to learn it. Heck, I didn't even know what > a Router was until about 7 months ago, and I already have CCNA, CCDA, CCNP, > and CCIE written. > > My point here is, don't listen to anyone that isn't in the same situation as > you! Take a realistic look at your options and go for it! > > Fred Danson > > P.S. - I have a problem with the statement "youth is a unique illnes that > heals with time only". From what I hear, the older portion of the CCIE > candidates typically struggle with the time constraints on the CCIE Lab. To > my knowledge, cheese and wine are the things that improve with age. They may > have the wisdom, but you got the speed. Go for it! > > > > >From: "Ruben Arias" > >Reply-To: "Ruben Arias" > >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Subject: Re: Failed CCDA [7:1865] > >Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 10:09:11 -0400 > > > >we're not offended because of your age, we're scared to death... > >by the way, youth is a unique illnes that heals with time only. > >Ruben > >_ > >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > >FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: > >http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html > >Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > _ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html > Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=2047&t=1929 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Certification Ego! (was Failed CCDA) [7:1929]
I've been watching this thread, and I have a different view of the field than Jason, so here it is, inline. (Allen May - this one is worth $0.04 ;-) -e- - Original Message - From: "Jason J. Roysdon" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 25, 2001 5:27 PM Subject: Re: Certification Ego! (was Failed CCDA) [7:1929] > I won't argue that it's always wise to follow what other people did, but I > will make a few points. > > First is that unless you know at least a very good entry-level knowledge of > networking beyond the Cisco product line, you're not very useful. A CCIE > who has never touched NT or Unix, bah, I don't see a huge value. > It's great to be well-rounded. I've never really touched an NT Server and barely touched Unix, but I'm greatly valued by my company and their customers. And my only certification is CCNA, not CCIE. (No MC or CN certifications for me) So does this mean, in your context, that I don't know what I'm talking about, or that I don't have a "huge value"? When NT or other OS operation issues come up, I get help from those who are competant in those areas. From an enterprise networking perspective, I understand a lot about infrastructure, multi-vendor networking, and security issues, and (probably most importantly), how to isolate a problems from a host versus infrastructure perspective. I VERY rarely have to guess that a server or a network is malfunctioning - I can pin it down. And if it is a server, I'll give my best to help solve the server problem, but I'm no expert in that arena. I'm an internetworking engineer, and I get a lot of help from server engineers. Very little "Lone Ranger" stuff for me - I don't even know what I don't know most of the time as it pertains to servers. Although I'd like to know more about NT, I'm not a server guy and never intended to be one. Operation of the Microsoft stack and the specific application is about as deep as I've ever needed to go, and a little bit of knowledge about the MS DHCP server operation has proved to be useful. I can steer myself around a Unix system but I need help from those sysadmins who are specifically knowledgeable with how to configure those machines. Ask the customers of Cisco's TAC as they describe their routing or bridging problem, or how a particular protocol is misbehaving and bring their network down, to the as the CCIE without NT or Unix experience on the other end of the phone that that CCIE does not have a huge value. Just a thought on your generalization and opinion: I've worked with CCIE's who have great server experience and are more server-centric (MCSE/CNE) but are actually low-quality internetworking engineers when it comes to large enterprise routing and switching. I've also worked with CCIE's who (like me) have little or no knowledge of the internals of NT or Unix but have incredible talents as remote access engineers and really know how to groom bandwidth to its fullest potential, or know how to engineer a great multi-service network. > I guess it varies on what you're doing and wanting to do, but for me, 70% of > my time is spent helping a customer figure out what in the world they need > me to do with the routers. I had a customer today that was going to deploy > a DHCP server on each subnet because they didn't understand any other way to > do it. If I didn't know NetWare DHCP and NT DHCP servers, I wouldn't have > been able to help them today beyond just saying "configure you DHCP server > for scopes for those subnets." Yes, I know how to do the "ip > helper-address," but unless they can configure their DHCP servers, that > knowledge doesn't do much. As it is, I spent 15 minutes explaining how the > whole thing would work, and then the rest of the day configuring scopes and > then finally implementing "ip helper-address" on all the necessary > interfaces. > And 70% of my time is spent designing robust networks for customers who aren't sure of their requirements or of their budget. So I COULD generalize that unless you have an engineering or business degree, you don't have a huge value as a CCIE. But since YOU'RE so well-rounded, you can tell them how to configure their DHCP server. Different model. I surround myself with people who can do that stuff well rather than be the do-er at that level because I'm very comfortable with my abilities and with what I DON'T know. If I were an independent consultant, I'd probably take the same position, because server setup is better left to people much more qualified and motivated than I am. > So, I do think it's necessary to have a good foundation in various areas. > No, you don't need a paper cert to have that experience, b
