Re: OT: Serves Me Right - DHCP problem [7:54402]
Nothing to fess up to, Chuck..My w2K works the same way at home.. connect, get a number..disconnect and reconnect , get a different number.. Linksys routers are pretty simple devices...I have two of them currently and both give out dhcp on different subnets...I can get an address from either one by the above functionno mobile ip..no special setup..just like Darrell said... Larry Chuck's Long Road wrote: well S*** Larry, thanks for providing that vital piece of troubleshooting relevant information! I still say you are using Mobile IP. fess up ;- Chuck -- www.chuckslongroad.info like my web site? take the survey! Larry Letterman wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... thats why we put in wireless in all our buildings..moving around is no problem... Priscilla Oppenheimer wrote: Darrell Newcomb wrote: Because pre-W2K windows didn't automatically try to renew a lease when the ethernet interface comes back up after being down. So...if the old lease hadn't come up for renewal during the time the machine moved from point A to B.the users don't automatically get connectivity. Plus with laptops, the user expects to not have to reboot. They may just move from building to building without shutting down the laptop. It might go to sleep, but you should just be able to hit a button and keep working. It seems like a reasonable user expectation, but alas, we as networkers haven't done a good job in this area. (at least with IP) The technical issue is that the user is in a different subnet and needs a new IP address and default gateway after moving to a new building, location, whatever. Priscilla Lots of options to teach the helpdesk how to educate usersbut since it 'worked before' in Chuck's case it's seen as a (big?) problem(PITA). Larry Letterman wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... why is that ? we have segmented avvid network across our campus. The laptops are all W2K and they work just fine without any issues on DHCP...The routers are all running hsrp and work correctly.. Chuck's Long Road wrote: I see I should have made this one a Friday Folly :- In a Big Flat Bridged Network, a mobile user unplugs the laptop at one office, drives over to the next office, plugs back in, and no further action is required. The Windoze PC has retained it's IP address, and the network doesn't care about location, because it is one big flat network. However, in the brand new ATM based AVVID ready routed network, said mobile user is now in a different segment in each location. With Windoze, you have to manually intervene. Sometimes you have to release the IP address, reload the computer, and then get your new DHCP assignment. Users don't like this. After all, now they have to do something, whereas before they did not. Never mind the higher speed, the failover capability of the routers, the new 100 mbs switches rather than 10mbs. They have to take an extra step or two in order to log in. This is normal behaviour for Windoze machines, and maybe for DHCP clients in general. I have had to do this release / renew for years. But to the customer, who is pretty naive in terms of networking, there is a problem that was caused by the new routers. To the users, there is a problem that never existed before. Like I said, serves me right. You give a customer a great new network, and you break something so rudimentary that it never would have occurred otherwise. :- -- www.chuckslongroad.info like my web site? take the survey! Priscilla Oppenheimer wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Spare us the mystery and tell us what you're getting at. :-) Did you forget to tell the DHCP server to provide the correct default gateway address to the PCs? That's my guess, since you say everything else like helper addresses, etc. is configured correctly. Just a late-night theory, waiting for Jay Leno to come on. Thanks, Priscilla Chuck's Long Road wrote: The AVVID solution I sold a few months ago is gong through implementation. This project has been problematic for a lot of reasons, so it is not unusual for a round of e-mails from the customer complaining about one thing or another. Today was a good one, however. Shows to go you have to ask things you normally wouldn't think about. DHCP - no big deal. Works fine. All of us have probably used it or configured it. All of us probably have experience with running several small sites off a single DHCP server at a central site. So why is the customer complaining about DHCP not working, and it's because our routers are screwed up and Microsoft told them that they would have to change their network addressing to a single class B rather than subnets of /16 space, the way I designed it? The routers are configured correctly. The network is designed correctly - no overlapping subnets. IP helpering is configured correctly.
RE: OT: Serves Me Right - DHCP problem [7:54402]
Strangely, they also detect 'cable reconnects' and attempt to re-IP (via DHCP, or autoconfig if enabled) you at that time. Thanks! TJ -Original Message- From: Larry Letterman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 1:20 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: OT: Serves Me Right - DHCP problem [7:54402] Nothing to fess up to, Chuck..My w2K works the same way at home.. connect, get a number..disconnect and reconnect , get a different number.. Linksys routers are pretty simple devices...I have two of them currently and both give out dhcp on different subnets...I can get an address from either one by the above functionno mobile ip..no special setup..just like Darrell said... Larry Chuck's Long Road wrote: well S*** Larry, thanks for providing that vital piece of troubleshooting relevant information! I still say you are using Mobile IP. fess up ;- Chuck -- www.chuckslongroad.info like my web site? take the survey! Larry Letterman wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... thats why we put in wireless in all our buildings..moving around is no problem... Priscilla Oppenheimer wrote: Darrell Newcomb wrote: Because pre-W2K windows didn't automatically try to renew a lease when the ethernet interface comes back up after being down. So...if the old lease hadn't come up for renewal during the time the machine moved from point A to B.the users don't automatically get connectivity. Plus with laptops, the user expects to not have to reboot. They may just move from building to building without shutting down the laptop. It might go to sleep, but you should just be able to hit a button and keep working. It seems like a reasonable user expectation, but alas, we as networkers haven't done a good job in this area. (at least with IP) The technical issue is that the user is in a different subnet and needs a new IP address and default gateway after moving to a new building, location, whatever. Priscilla Lots of options to teach the helpdesk how to educate usersbut since it 'worked before' in Chuck's case it's seen as a (big?) problem(PITA). Larry Letterman wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... why is that ? we have segmented avvid network across our campus. The laptops are all W2K and they work just fine without any issues on DHCP...The routers are all running hsrp and work correctly.. Chuck's Long Road wrote: I see I should have made this one a Friday Folly :- In a Big Flat Bridged Network, a mobile user unplugs the laptop at one office, drives over to the next office, plugs back in, and no further action is required. The Windoze PC has retained it's IP address, and the network doesn't care about location, because it is one big flat network. However, in the brand new ATM based AVVID ready routed network, said mobile user is now in a different segment in each location. With Windoze, you have to manually intervene. Sometimes you have to release the IP address, reload the computer, and then get your new DHCP assignment. Users don't like this. After all, now they have to do something, whereas before they did not. Never mind the higher speed, the failover capability of the routers, the new 100 mbs switches rather than 10mbs. They have to take an extra step or two in order to log in. This is normal behaviour for Windoze machines, and maybe for DHCP clients in general. I have had to do this release / renew for years. But to the customer, who is pretty naive in terms of networking, there is a problem that was caused by the new routers. To the users, there is a problem that never existed before. Like I said, serves me right. You give a customer a great new network, and you break something so rudimentary that it never would have occurred otherwise. :- -- www.chuckslongroad.info like my web site? take the survey! Priscilla Oppenheimer wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Spare us the mystery and tell us what you're getting at. :-) Did you forget to tell the DHCP server to provide the correct default gateway address to the PCs? That's my guess, since you say everything else like helper addresses, etc. is configured correctly. Just a late-night theory, waiting for Jay Leno to come on. Thanks, Priscilla Chuck's Long Road wrote: The AVVID solution I sold a few months ago is gong through implementation. This project has been problematic for a lot of reasons, so it is not unusual for a round of e-mails from the customer complaining about one thing or another. Today was a good one, however. Shows to go you have to ask things you normally wouldn't think about. DHCP - no big deal. Works fine. All of us have probably used it or configured it. All of us probably have experience with running several small sites off a single DHCP server at a central site. So why is the customer complaining about DHCP
RE: OT: Serves Me Right - DHCP problem [7:54402]
Hmm ... that email seemed to make more sense when I sent it ... Let's try this again- IIRC - Win2k and later detect 'cable disconnects', and de-IP your system. Strangely, they also detect 'cable reconnects' and attempt to re-IP (via DHCP, or autoconfig if enabled) you at that time. -Original Message- From: Evans, TJ [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 1:49 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: OT: Serves Me Right - DHCP problem [7:54402] Strangely, they also detect 'cable reconnects' and attempt to re-IP (via DHCP, or autoconfig if enabled) you at that time. Thanks! TJ -Original Message- From: Larry Letterman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 1:20 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: OT: Serves Me Right - DHCP problem [7:54402] Nothing to fess up to, Chuck..My w2K works the same way at home.. connect, get a number..disconnect and reconnect , get a different number.. Linksys routers are pretty simple devices...I have two of them currently and both give out dhcp on different subnets...I can get an address from either one by the above functionno mobile ip..no special setup..just like Darrell said... Larry Chuck's Long Road wrote: well S*** Larry, thanks for providing that vital piece of troubleshooting relevant information! I still say you are using Mobile IP. fess up ;- Chuck -- www.chuckslongroad.info like my web site? take the survey! Larry Letterman wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... thats why we put in wireless in all our buildings..moving around is no problem... Priscilla Oppenheimer wrote: Darrell Newcomb wrote: Because pre-W2K windows didn't automatically try to renew a lease when the ethernet interface comes back up after being down. So...if the old lease hadn't come up for renewal during the time the machine moved from point A to B.the users don't automatically get connectivity. Plus with laptops, the user expects to not have to reboot. They may just move from building to building without shutting down the laptop. It might go to sleep, but you should just be able to hit a button and keep working. It seems like a reasonable user expectation, but alas, we as networkers haven't done a good job in this area. (at least with IP) The technical issue is that the user is in a different subnet and needs a new IP address and default gateway after moving to a new building, location, whatever. Priscilla Lots of options to teach the helpdesk how to educate usersbut since it 'worked before' in Chuck's case it's seen as a (big?) problem(PITA). Larry Letterman wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... why is that ? we have segmented avvid network across our campus. The laptops are all W2K and they work just fine without any issues on DHCP...The routers are all running hsrp and work correctly.. Chuck's Long Road wrote: I see I should have made this one a Friday Folly :- In a Big Flat Bridged Network, a mobile user unplugs the laptop at one office, drives over to the next office, plugs back in, and no further action is required. The Windoze PC has retained it's IP address, and the network doesn't care about location, because it is one big flat network. However, in the brand new ATM based AVVID ready routed network, said mobile user is now in a different segment in each location. With Windoze, you have to manually intervene. Sometimes you have to release the IP address, reload the computer, and then get your new DHCP assignment. Users don't like this. After all, now they have to do something, whereas before they did not. Never mind the higher speed, the failover capability of the routers, the new 100 mbs switches rather than 10mbs. They have to take an extra step or two in order to log in. This is normal behaviour for Windoze machines, and maybe for DHCP clients in general. I have had to do this release / renew for years. But to the customer, who is pretty naive in terms of networking, there is a problem that was caused by the new routers. To the users, there is a problem that never existed before. Like I said, serves me right. You give a customer a great new network, and you break something so rudimentary that it never would have occurred otherwise. :- -- www.chuckslongroad.info like my web site? take the survey! Priscilla Oppenheimer wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Spare us the mystery and tell us what you're getting at. :-) Did you forget to tell the DHCP server to provide the correct default gateway address to the PCs? That's my guess, since you say everything else like helper addresses, etc. is configured correctly. Just a late-night theory, waiting for Jay Leno to come on. Thanks, Priscilla Chuck's Long Road wrote: The AVVID solution I sold a few months ago is gong through implementation. This project has be
RE: OT: Serves Me Right - DHCP problem [7:54402]
Evans, TJ wrote: IIRC: Win2k and later detect 'cable disconnects', and de-IP your system. Strangely, they also detect 'cable reconnects' and attempt to re-IP (via DHCP, or autoconfig if enabled) you at that time. Not to beat this to death, but that must indeed be the explanation. W2K and XP recognize when the user connects the Ethernet cable and resend a DHCP request, assuming DHCP is being used. So when the PC is moved to a new location and new subnet, it gets a proper address without any user twidling beyond inserting the cable. This seems too smart for Windoze, but I can't think of any other explanataion. So, Chuck's users are using W2K and XP. What could they be doing wrong?? Also, of course, this doesn't solve the problem for wireless users. That's not what Chuck was asking about, but it's still an interesting issue. They could benefit from Mobile IP. (I really want to recommend that. ;-) The reason I say that the cable insertion theory is the explanation is that there's no other way for the operating system and protocol stack to know that it needs to send a new DHCP request. Remember, we're talking about laptops that haven't been shut down. (Maybe they go to sleep though? Awaking from sleep might also cause a new DHCP request?) The PC can't tell that it's on a different network by just looking at packets. Even though it could see the IP addresses being used by other devices, it couldn't know the subnet mask and default gateway to use. Contrast this with AppleTalk, which solved this problem years ago. ;-) An AppleTalk end node hears the incessant RTMPs coming from routers. Not only does the end node learn the address of a gateway to use from that, but it also learns its own network number because the local net number is always the first one in the RTMP packet. Of course, the tradeoff was those incessant RTMPs. ;-) But moving a Mac to a new network has always been pretty straightforward, despite a rather annoying message that comes up and confuses users. ___ Priscilla Oppenheimer www.troubleshootingnetworks.com www.priscilla.com Thanks! TJ -Original Message- From: Larry Letterman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 1:20 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: OT: Serves Me Right - DHCP problem [7:54402] Nothing to fess up to, Chuck..My w2K works the same way at home.. connect, get a number..disconnect and reconnect , get a different number.. Linksys routers are pretty simple devices...I have two of them currently and both give out dhcp on different subnets...I can get an address from either one by the above functionno mobile ip..no special setup..just like Darrell said... Larry Chuck's Long Road wrote: well S*** Larry, thanks for providing that vital piece of troubleshooting relevant information! I still say you are using Mobile IP. fess up ;- Chuck -- www.chuckslongroad.info like my web site? take the survey! Larry Letterman wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... thats why we put in wireless in all our buildings..moving around is no problem... Priscilla Oppenheimer wrote: Darrell Newcomb wrote: Because pre-W2K windows didn't automatically try to renew a lease when the ethernet interface comes back up after being down. So...if the old lease hadn't come up for renewal during the time the machine moved from point A to B.the users don't automatically get connectivity. Plus with laptops, the user expects to not have to reboot. They may just move from building to building without shutting down the laptop. It might go to sleep, but you should just be able to hit a button and keep working. It seems like a reasonable user expectation, but alas, we as networkers haven't done a good job in this area. (at least with IP) The technical issue is that the user is in a different subnet and needs a new IP address and default gateway after moving to a new building, location, whatever. Priscilla Lots of options to teach the helpdesk how to educate usersbut since it 'worked before' in Chuck's case it's seen as a (big?) problem(PITA). Larry Letterman wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... why is that ? we have segmented avvid network across our campus. The laptops are all W2K and they work just fine without any issues on DHCP...The routers are all running hsrp and work correctly.. Chuck's Long Road wrote: I see I should have made this one a Friday Folly :- In a Big Flat Bridged Network, a mobile user unplugs the laptop at one office, drives over to the next office, plugs back in, and no further action is required. The Windoze PC has retained it's IP address, and the network doesn't care about location, because it is one big flat network. However, in the brand new ATM b
RE: OT: Serves Me Right - DHCP problem [7:54402]
This may seem like too simple of a solution (no such thing though right?) But my approach to this problem for a consulting client who floats from network to network with a wireless NIC was to just make him a batch file and put a shortcut to it on his desktop. The batch file has two commands in it: ipconfig/release ipconfig/renew (naturally, a win98 machine needs ipconfig/release_all and ipconfig/renew_all) And I told him to double-click that icon if he ever wasn't getting network traffic. Of course, I got the usual end user questions - why do I have to do this, isn't there a way that I can go from work to home and not have to click this icon, etc... I told him his other option was to get billed for me to make an on-site visit to do the same thing, and it hasn't been an issue since. -Original Message- From: Priscilla Oppenheimer [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 2:55 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: OT: Serves Me Right - DHCP problem [7:54402] Evans, TJ wrote: IIRC: Win2k and later detect 'cable disconnects', and de-IP your system. Strangely, they also detect 'cable reconnects' and attempt to re-IP (via DHCP, or autoconfig if enabled) you at that time. Not to beat this to death, but that must indeed be the explanation. W2K and XP recognize when the user connects the Ethernet cable and resend a DHCP request, assuming DHCP is being used. So when the PC is moved to a new location and new subnet, it gets a proper address without any user twidling beyond inserting the cable. This seems too smart for Windoze, but I can't think of any other explanataion. So, Chuck's users are using W2K and XP. What could they be doing wrong?? Also, of course, this doesn't solve the problem for wireless users. That's not what Chuck was asking about, but it's still an interesting issue. They could benefit from Mobile IP. (I really want to recommend that. ;-) The reason I say that the cable insertion theory is the explanation is that there's no other way for the operating system and protocol stack to know that it needs to send a new DHCP request. Remember, we're talking about laptops that haven't been shut down. (Maybe they go to sleep though? Awaking from sleep might also cause a new DHCP request?) The PC can't tell that it's on a different network by just looking at packets. Even though it could see the IP addresses being used by other devices, it couldn't know the subnet mask and default gateway to use. Contrast this with AppleTalk, which solved this problem years ago. ;-) An AppleTalk end node hears the incessant RTMPs coming from routers. Not only does the end node learn the address of a gateway to use from that, but it also learns its own network number because the local net number is always the first one in the RTMP packet. Of course, the tradeoff was those incessant RTMPs. ;-) But moving a Mac to a new network has always been pretty straightforward, despite a rather annoying message that comes up and confuses users. ___ Priscilla Oppenheimer www.troubleshootingnetworks.com www.priscilla.com Thanks! TJ -Original Message- From: Larry Letterman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 1:20 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: OT: Serves Me Right - DHCP problem [7:54402] Nothing to fess up to, Chuck..My w2K works the same way at home.. connect, get a number..disconnect and reconnect , get a different number.. Linksys routers are pretty simple devices...I have two of them currently and both give out dhcp on different subnets...I can get an address from either one by the above functionno mobile ip..no special setup..just like Darrell said... Larry Chuck's Long Road wrote: well S*** Larry, thanks for providing that vital piece of troubleshooting relevant information! I still say you are using Mobile IP. fess up ;- Chuck -- www.chuckslongroad.info like my web site? take the survey! Larry Letterman wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... thats why we put in wireless in all our buildings..moving around is no problem... Priscilla Oppenheimer wrote: Darrell Newcomb wrote: Because pre-W2K windows didn't automatically try to renew a lease when the ethernet interface comes back up after being down. So...if the old lease hadn't come up for renewal during the time the machine moved from point A to B.the users don't automatically get connectivity. Plus with laptops, the user expects to not have to reboot. They may just move from building to building without shutting down the laptop. It might go to sleep, but you should just be able to hit a button and keep working. It seems like a reasonable user exp
Re: OT: Serves Me Right - DHCP problem [7:54402]
Kevin Wigle wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... W2K/XP does that automatically. If you have the icon turned on in the system tray for the nic, you will see when the cable is unplugged and when it is plugged in again. (you don't need it turned on to work) this has been stated somewhere before in this thread. That was me trying to keep everyone's perspective of the pre-w2k clients on the described network. But I didn't realize there were problems with w2k clients as well at that point. But Chuck says he has W2K/XP and it isn't working. (for everybody). Why is it working for some and not others? In our lab we sometimes punch a PC from one segment to another. When it doesn't work we just unplug and replug and it usually works the 2nd time. Oh I didn't catch that part of the problem description. I thought the users were all 98/NT4. If that were so, it would be perfectly expected what's happening. Sounds like it's time to get the sniffer working. Yes it really does sound like time to look at L2 and the ACTUAL details of this situation. Could be a variety of things but the packet capture should show the cards. After solving those though there is still the pre-w2k clients which aren't disappearing tomorrow. IMHO the traditional way to handle this before many clients did the automatic renewal upon link up was to: a)make the mobile access ports on one VLAN per building(or conveniently close geographic footprint) b)with caution tune lease times downward for those access VLANs to roughly the time it would take to travel from one building/campus to another Some folks also: -got fancy with meeting the concept behind A and did things based upon mac prefixes. -just educated folks to release and acquire a new address or reboot(doesn't help Chuck's situation much) Darrell Service Advisor http://www.netswitch.net Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=54576t=54402 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: Serves Me Right - DHCP problem [7:54402]
Darrell Newcomb wrote: Because pre-W2K windows didn't automatically try to renew a lease when the ethernet interface comes back up after being down. So...if the old lease hadn't come up for renewal during the time the machine moved from point A to B.the users don't automatically get connectivity. Plus with laptops, the user expects to not have to reboot. They may just move from building to building without shutting down the laptop. It might go to sleep, but you should just be able to hit a button and keep working. It seems like a reasonable user expectation, but alas, we as networkers haven't done a good job in this area. (at least with IP) The technical issue is that the user is in a different subnet and needs a new IP address and default gateway after moving to a new building, location, whatever. Priscilla Lots of options to teach the helpdesk how to educate usersbut since it 'worked before' in Chuck's case it's seen as a (big?) problem(PITA). Larry Letterman wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... why is that ? we have segmented avvid network across our campus. The laptops are all W2K and they work just fine without any issues on DHCP...The routers are all running hsrp and work correctly.. Chuck's Long Road wrote: I see I should have made this one a Friday Folly :- In a Big Flat Bridged Network, a mobile user unplugs the laptop at one office, drives over to the next office, plugs back in, and no further action is required. The Windoze PC has retained it's IP address, and the network doesn't care about location, because it is one big flat network. However, in the brand new ATM based AVVID ready routed network, said mobile user is now in a different segment in each location. With Windoze, you have to manually intervene. Sometimes you have to release the IP address, reload the computer, and then get your new DHCP assignment. Users don't like this. After all, now they have to do something, whereas before they did not. Never mind the higher speed, the failover capability of the routers, the new 100 mbs switches rather than 10mbs. They have to take an extra step or two in order to log in. This is normal behaviour for Windoze machines, and maybe for DHCP clients in general. I have had to do this release / renew for years. But to the customer, who is pretty naive in terms of networking, there is a problem that was caused by the new routers. To the users, there is a problem that never existed before. Like I said, serves me right. You give a customer a great new network, and you break something so rudimentary that it never would have occurred otherwise. :- -- www.chuckslongroad.info like my web site? take the survey! Priscilla Oppenheimer wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Spare us the mystery and tell us what you're getting at. :-) Did you forget to tell the DHCP server to provide the correct default gateway address to the PCs? That's my guess, since you say everything else like helper addresses, etc. is configured correctly. Just a late-night theory, waiting for Jay Leno to come on. Thanks, Priscilla Chuck's Long Road wrote: The AVVID solution I sold a few months ago is gong through implementation. This project has been problematic for a lot of reasons, so it is not unusual for a round of e-mails from the customer complaining about one thing or another. Today was a good one, however. Shows to go you have to ask things you normally wouldn't think about. DHCP - no big deal. Works fine. All of us have probably used it or configured it. All of us probably have experience with running several small sites off a single DHCP server at a central site. So why is the customer complaining about DHCP not working, and it's because our routers are screwed up and Microsoft told them that they would have to change their network addressing to a single class B rather than subnets of /16 space, the way I designed it? The routers are configured correctly. The network is designed correctly - no overlapping subnets. IP helpering is configured correctly. Problem occurs with several users, different NIC's, either Win2K or WinXP. No one common factor. Worked just fine before we put the new routers in. Recognizing that Microsoft is full of C**P and their TCP stack is S**T, still, why the problem. Gee, what happens to DHCP when you go from a single flat bridged network to a segmented routed network? Especially to mobile users, who travel from site to site for various reasons on a regular basis? Serves me right Chuck -- www.chuckslongroad.info like my web site? take the survey! -- Larry Letterman Network Engineer Cisco Systems Inc.
Re: OT: Serves Me Right - DHCP problem [7:54402]
thats why we put in wireless in all our buildings..moving around is no problem... Priscilla Oppenheimer wrote: Darrell Newcomb wrote: Because pre-W2K windows didn't automatically try to renew a lease when the ethernet interface comes back up after being down. So...if the old lease hadn't come up for renewal during the time the machine moved from point A to B.the users don't automatically get connectivity. Plus with laptops, the user expects to not have to reboot. They may just move from building to building without shutting down the laptop. It might go to sleep, but you should just be able to hit a button and keep working. It seems like a reasonable user expectation, but alas, we as networkers haven't done a good job in this area. (at least with IP) The technical issue is that the user is in a different subnet and needs a new IP address and default gateway after moving to a new building, location, whatever. Priscilla Lots of options to teach the helpdesk how to educate usersbut since it 'worked before' in Chuck's case it's seen as a (big?) problem(PITA). Larry Letterman wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... why is that ? we have segmented avvid network across our campus. The laptops are all W2K and they work just fine without any issues on DHCP...The routers are all running hsrp and work correctly.. Chuck's Long Road wrote: I see I should have made this one a Friday Folly :- In a Big Flat Bridged Network, a mobile user unplugs the laptop at one office, drives over to the next office, plugs back in, and no further action is required. The Windoze PC has retained it's IP address, and the network doesn't care about location, because it is one big flat network. However, in the brand new ATM based AVVID ready routed network, said mobile user is now in a different segment in each location. With Windoze, you have to manually intervene. Sometimes you have to release the IP address, reload the computer, and then get your new DHCP assignment. Users don't like this. After all, now they have to do something, whereas before they did not. Never mind the higher speed, the failover capability of the routers, the new 100 mbs switches rather than 10mbs. They have to take an extra step or two in order to log in. This is normal behaviour for Windoze machines, and maybe for DHCP clients in general. I have had to do this release / renew for years. But to the customer, who is pretty naive in terms of networking, there is a problem that was caused by the new routers. To the users, there is a problem that never existed before. Like I said, serves me right. You give a customer a great new network, and you break something so rudimentary that it never would have occurred otherwise. :- -- www.chuckslongroad.info like my web site? take the survey! Priscilla Oppenheimer wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Spare us the mystery and tell us what you're getting at. :-) Did you forget to tell the DHCP server to provide the correct default gateway address to the PCs? That's my guess, since you say everything else like helper addresses, etc. is configured correctly. Just a late-night theory, waiting for Jay Leno to come on. Thanks, Priscilla Chuck's Long Road wrote: The AVVID solution I sold a few months ago is gong through implementation. This project has been problematic for a lot of reasons, so it is not unusual for a round of e-mails from the customer complaining about one thing or another. Today was a good one, however. Shows to go you have to ask things you normally wouldn't think about. DHCP - no big deal. Works fine. All of us have probably used it or configured it. All of us probably have experience with running several small sites off a single DHCP server at a central site. So why is the customer complaining about DHCP not working, and it's because our routers are screwed up and Microsoft told them that they would have to change their network addressing to a single class B rather than subnets of /16 space, the way I designed it? The routers are configured correctly. The network is designed correctly - no overlapping subnets. IP helpering is configured correctly. Problem occurs with several users, different NIC's, either Win2K or WinXP. No one common factor. Worked just fine before we put the new routers in. Recognizing that Microsoft is full of C**P and their TCP stack is S**T, still, why the problem. Gee, what happens to DHCP when you go from a single flat bridged network to a segmented routed network? Especially to mobile users, who travel from site to site for various reasons on a regular basis? Serves me right Chuck -- www.chuckslongroad.info like my web site? take the survey! -- Larry Letterman Network Engineer Cisco Systems Inc. -- Larry Letterman Network Engineer Cisco Systems Inc. Message Posted at:
Re: OT: Serves Me Right - DHCP problem [7:54402]
well S*** Larry, thanks for providing that vital piece of troubleshooting relevant information! I still say you are using Mobile IP. fess up ;- Chuck -- www.chuckslongroad.info like my web site? take the survey! Larry Letterman wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... thats why we put in wireless in all our buildings..moving around is no problem... Priscilla Oppenheimer wrote: Darrell Newcomb wrote: Because pre-W2K windows didn't automatically try to renew a lease when the ethernet interface comes back up after being down. So...if the old lease hadn't come up for renewal during the time the machine moved from point A to B.the users don't automatically get connectivity. Plus with laptops, the user expects to not have to reboot. They may just move from building to building without shutting down the laptop. It might go to sleep, but you should just be able to hit a button and keep working. It seems like a reasonable user expectation, but alas, we as networkers haven't done a good job in this area. (at least with IP) The technical issue is that the user is in a different subnet and needs a new IP address and default gateway after moving to a new building, location, whatever. Priscilla Lots of options to teach the helpdesk how to educate usersbut since it 'worked before' in Chuck's case it's seen as a (big?) problem(PITA). Larry Letterman wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... why is that ? we have segmented avvid network across our campus. The laptops are all W2K and they work just fine without any issues on DHCP...The routers are all running hsrp and work correctly.. Chuck's Long Road wrote: I see I should have made this one a Friday Folly :- In a Big Flat Bridged Network, a mobile user unplugs the laptop at one office, drives over to the next office, plugs back in, and no further action is required. The Windoze PC has retained it's IP address, and the network doesn't care about location, because it is one big flat network. However, in the brand new ATM based AVVID ready routed network, said mobile user is now in a different segment in each location. With Windoze, you have to manually intervene. Sometimes you have to release the IP address, reload the computer, and then get your new DHCP assignment. Users don't like this. After all, now they have to do something, whereas before they did not. Never mind the higher speed, the failover capability of the routers, the new 100 mbs switches rather than 10mbs. They have to take an extra step or two in order to log in. This is normal behaviour for Windoze machines, and maybe for DHCP clients in general. I have had to do this release / renew for years. But to the customer, who is pretty naive in terms of networking, there is a problem that was caused by the new routers. To the users, there is a problem that never existed before. Like I said, serves me right. You give a customer a great new network, and you break something so rudimentary that it never would have occurred otherwise. :- -- www.chuckslongroad.info like my web site? take the survey! Priscilla Oppenheimer wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Spare us the mystery and tell us what you're getting at. :-) Did you forget to tell the DHCP server to provide the correct default gateway address to the PCs? That's my guess, since you say everything else like helper addresses, etc. is configured correctly. Just a late-night theory, waiting for Jay Leno to come on. Thanks, Priscilla Chuck's Long Road wrote: The AVVID solution I sold a few months ago is gong through implementation. This project has been problematic for a lot of reasons, so it is not unusual for a round of e-mails from the customer complaining about one thing or another. Today was a good one, however. Shows to go you have to ask things you normally wouldn't think about. DHCP - no big deal. Works fine. All of us have probably used it or configured it. All of us probably have experience with running several small sites off a single DHCP server at a central site. So why is the customer complaining about DHCP not working, and it's because our routers are screwed up and Microsoft told them that they would have to change their network addressing to a single class B rather than subnets of /16 space, the way I designed it? The routers are configured correctly. The network is designed correctly - no overlapping subnets. IP helpering is configured correctly. Problem occurs with several users, different NIC's, either Win2K or WinXP. No one common factor. Worked just fine before we put the new routers in. Recognizing that Microsoft is full of C**P
RE: OT: Serves Me Right - DHCP problem [7:54402]
well...when I unplug from my building and re-plug in next door my win2K laptop re-acquires a new network ip from the new subnet.. Is this not normal ? Its been this way ever since I have had a laptop on campus... Larry Letterman Network Engineer Cisco Systems Inc. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Sunday, September 29, 2002 1:01 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: OT: Serves Me Right - DHCP problem [7:54402] Darrell Newcomb wrote: Because pre-W2K windows didn't automatically try to renew a lease when the ethernet interface comes back up after being down. So...if the old lease hadn't come up for renewal during the time the machine moved from point A to B.the users don't automatically get connectivity. Plus with laptops, the user expects to not have to reboot. They may just move from building to building without shutting down the laptop. It might go to sleep, but you should just be able to hit a button and keep working. It seems like a reasonable user expectation, but alas, we as networkers haven't done a good job in this area. (at least with IP) The technical issue is that the user is in a different subnet and needs a new IP address and default gateway after moving to a new building, location, whatever. Priscilla Lots of options to teach the helpdesk how to educate usersbut since it 'worked before' in Chuck's case it's seen as a (big?) problem(PITA). Larry Letterman wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... why is that ? we have segmented avvid network across our campus. The laptops are all W2K and they work just fine without any issues on DHCP...The routers are all running hsrp and work correctly.. Chuck's Long Road wrote: I see I should have made this one a Friday Folly :- In a Big Flat Bridged Network, a mobile user unplugs the laptop at one office, drives over to the next office, plugs back in, and no further action is required. The Windoze PC has retained it's IP address, and the network doesn't care about location, because it is one big flat network. However, in the brand new ATM based AVVID ready routed network, said mobile user is now in a different segment in each location. With Windoze, you have to manually intervene. Sometimes you have to release the IP address, reload the computer, and then get your new DHCP assignment. Users don't like this. After all, now they have to do something, whereas before they did not. Never mind the higher speed, the failover capability of the routers, the new 100 mbs switches rather than 10mbs. They have to take an extra step or two in order to log in. This is normal behaviour for Windoze machines, and maybe for DHCP clients in general. I have had to do this release / renew for years. But to the customer, who is pretty naive in terms of networking, there is a problem that was caused by the new routers. To the users, there is a problem that never existed before. Like I said, serves me right. You give a customer a great new network, and you break something so rudimentary that it never would have occurred otherwise. :- -- www.chuckslongroad.info like my web site? take the survey! Priscilla Oppenheimer wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Spare us the mystery and tell us what you're getting at. :-) Did you forget to tell the DHCP server to provide the correct default gateway address to the PCs? That's my guess, since you say everything else like helper addresses, etc. is configured correctly. Just a late-night theory, waiting for Jay Leno to come on. Thanks, Priscilla Chuck's Long Road wrote: The AVVID solution I sold a few months ago is gong through implementation. This project has been problematic for a lot of reasons, so it is not unusual for a round of e-mails from the customer complaining about one thing or another. Today was a good one, however. Shows to go you have to ask things you normally wouldn't think about. DHCP - no big deal. Works fine. All of us have probably used it or configured it. All of us probably have experience with running several small sites off a single DHCP server at a central site. So why is the customer complaining about DHCP not working, and it's because our routers are screwed up and Microsoft told them that they would have to change their network addressing to a single class B rather than subnets of /16 space, the way I designed it? The routers are configured correctly. The network is designed correctly - no overlapping subnets. IP helpering is configured correctly. Problem occurs with several users, different NIC's, either Win2K or WinXP. No one common factor. Worked just fine before we put the new routers in. Recognizin
Re: OT: Serves Me Right - DHCP problem [7:54402]
this has been stated somewhere before in this thread. W2K/XP does that automatically. If you have the icon turned on in the system tray for the nic, you will see when the cable is unplugged and when it is plugged in again. (you don't need it turned on to work) W2K automatically senses that things have changed and will automatically do the update. However, Win95/Win98 does not do this. These clients will have to release/renew which of course clients aren't used to since the network was flat. If that's the way it's always been for you then you must be a youngster OR no experience with Win9x OR always worked on a flat network. I work in a large MAN (15,000+) users where we are just finishing migrating to W2K Pro from NT 4.0 and Win95 (laptops have Win98). Laptops would only acquire a new address if the lease they had had expired. If the lease has not expired (or approached the first refesh time which is one half of lease) then they will use the same address. If they have expired then they will request from DHCP to use the same address but DHCP will answer NO, and re-issue the proper IP info for that segment. But Chuck says he has W2K/XP and it isn't working. (for everybody). Why is it working for some and not others? In our lab we sometimes punch a PC from one segment to another. When it doesn't work we just unplug and replug and it usually works the 2nd time. Sounds like it's time to get the sniffer working. Kevin Wigle - Original Message - From: Larry Letterman To: Sent: Sunday, September 29, 2002 10:41 PM Subject: RE: OT: Serves Me Right - DHCP problem [7:54402] well...when I unplug from my building and re-plug in next door my win2K laptop re-acquires a new network ip from the new subnet.. Is this not normal ? Its been this way ever since I have had a laptop on campus... Larry Letterman Network Engineer Cisco Systems Inc. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Sunday, September 29, 2002 1:01 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: OT: Serves Me Right - DHCP problem [7:54402] Darrell Newcomb wrote: Because pre-W2K windows didn't automatically try to renew a lease when the ethernet interface comes back up after being down. So...if the old lease hadn't come up for renewal during the time the machine moved from point A to B.the users don't automatically get connectivity. Plus with laptops, the user expects to not have to reboot. They may just move from building to building without shutting down the laptop. It might go to sleep, but you should just be able to hit a button and keep working. It seems like a reasonable user expectation, but alas, we as networkers haven't done a good job in this area. (at least with IP) The technical issue is that the user is in a different subnet and needs a new IP address and default gateway after moving to a new building, location, whatever. Priscilla Lots of options to teach the helpdesk how to educate usersbut since it 'worked before' in Chuck's case it's seen as a (big?) problem(PITA). Larry Letterman wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... why is that ? we have segmented avvid network across our campus. The laptops are all W2K and they work just fine without any issues on DHCP...The routers are all running hsrp and work correctly.. Chuck's Long Road wrote: I see I should have made this one a Friday Folly :- In a Big Flat Bridged Network, a mobile user unplugs the laptop at one office, drives over to the next office, plugs back in, and no further action is required. The Windoze PC has retained it's IP address, and the network doesn't care about location, because it is one big flat network. However, in the brand new ATM based AVVID ready routed network, said mobile user is now in a different segment in each location. With Windoze, you have to manually intervene. Sometimes you have to release the IP address, reload the computer, and then get your new DHCP assignment. Users don't like this. After all, now they have to do something, whereas before they did not. Never mind the higher speed, the failover capability of the routers, the new 100 mbs switches rather than 10mbs. They have to take an extra step or two in order to log in. This is normal behaviour for Windoze machines, and maybe for DHCP clients in general. I have had to do this release / renew for years. But to the customer, who is pretty naive in terms of networking, there is a problem that was caused by the new routers. To the users, there is a problem that never existed before. Like I said, serves me right. You give a customer a great new network, and you break something so rudimentary that it never would have occurred otherwise. :- -- www.chuckslongroad.info like my
Re: OT: Serves Me Right - DHCP problem [7:54402]
I see I should have made this one a Friday Folly :- In a Big Flat Bridged Network, a mobile user unplugs the laptop at one office, drives over to the next office, plugs back in, and no further action is required. The Windoze PC has retained it's IP address, and the network doesn't care about location, because it is one big flat network. However, in the brand new ATM based AVVID ready routed network, said mobile user is now in a different segment in each location. With Windoze, you have to manually intervene. Sometimes you have to release the IP address, reload the computer, and then get your new DHCP assignment. Users don't like this. After all, now they have to do something, whereas before they did not. Never mind the higher speed, the failover capability of the routers, the new 100 mbs switches rather than 10mbs. They have to take an extra step or two in order to log in. This is normal behaviour for Windoze machines, and maybe for DHCP clients in general. I have had to do this release / renew for years. But to the customer, who is pretty naive in terms of networking, there is a problem that was caused by the new routers. To the users, there is a problem that never existed before. Like I said, serves me right. You give a customer a great new network, and you break something so rudimentary that it never would have occurred otherwise. :- -- www.chuckslongroad.info like my web site? take the survey! Priscilla Oppenheimer wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Spare us the mystery and tell us what you're getting at. :-) Did you forget to tell the DHCP server to provide the correct default gateway address to the PCs? That's my guess, since you say everything else like helper addresses, etc. is configured correctly. Just a late-night theory, waiting for Jay Leno to come on. Thanks, Priscilla Chuck's Long Road wrote: The AVVID solution I sold a few months ago is gong through implementation. This project has been problematic for a lot of reasons, so it is not unusual for a round of e-mails from the customer complaining about one thing or another. Today was a good one, however. Shows to go you have to ask things you normally wouldn't think about. DHCP - no big deal. Works fine. All of us have probably used it or configured it. All of us probably have experience with running several small sites off a single DHCP server at a central site. So why is the customer complaining about DHCP not working, and it's because our routers are screwed up and Microsoft told them that they would have to change their network addressing to a single class B rather than subnets of /16 space, the way I designed it? The routers are configured correctly. The network is designed correctly - no overlapping subnets. IP helpering is configured correctly. Problem occurs with several users, different NIC's, either Win2K or WinXP. No one common factor. Worked just fine before we put the new routers in. Recognizing that Microsoft is full of C**P and their TCP stack is S**T, still, why the problem. Gee, what happens to DHCP when you go from a single flat bridged network to a segmented routed network? Especially to mobile users, who travel from site to site for various reasons on a regular basis? Serves me right Chuck -- www.chuckslongroad.info like my web site? take the survey! Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=54431t=54402 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: Serves Me Right - DHCP problem [7:54402]
You could try Mobile IP. That would require more design and configuration on your part than perhaps you wanted to get into, though, espeically if there are lots of mobile users. But it's proven to be quite useful for wirless mobile users who have the same problem that you're describing, of course. It's not just Windoze that has the problem, is it? A Mac wouln't automatically figure out that you need a new IP address and default gateway either. But at least you don' t have to reboot with any versions of Mac OS. Well, you may not have to reboot a PC either if al you do is release and renew, or do you with 98 and earlier? Now, with AppleTalk, this sort of thing was much more automatic. But we still haven't achieved that level of sophistication in the IP world. ;-0 There is the Zero Conf group in IETF working on stuff like this. Priscilla Chuck's Long Road wrote: I see I should have made this one a Friday Folly :- In a Big Flat Bridged Network, a mobile user unplugs the laptop at one office, drives over to the next office, plugs back in, and no further action is required. The Windoze PC has retained it's IP address, and the network doesn't care about location, because it is one big flat network. However, in the brand new ATM based AVVID ready routed network, said mobile user is now in a different segment in each location. With Windoze, you have to manually intervene. Sometimes you have to release the IP address, reload the computer, and then get your new DHCP assignment. Users don't like this. After all, now they have to do something, whereas before they did not. Never mind the higher speed, the failover capability of the routers, the new 100 mbs switches rather than 10mbs. They have to take an extra step or two in order to log in. This is normal behaviour for Windoze machines, and maybe for DHCP clients in general. I have had to do this release / renew for years. But to the customer, who is pretty naive in terms of networking, there is a problem that was caused by the new routers. To the users, there is a problem that never existed before. Like I said, serves me right. You give a customer a great new network, and you break something so rudimentary that it never would have occurred otherwise. :- -- www.chuckslongroad.info like my web site? take the survey! Priscilla Oppenheimer wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Spare us the mystery and tell us what you're getting at. :-) Did you forget to tell the DHCP server to provide the correct default gateway address to the PCs? That's my guess, since you say everything else like helper addresses, etc. is configured correctly. Just a late-night theory, waiting for Jay Leno to come on. Thanks, Priscilla Chuck's Long Road wrote: The AVVID solution I sold a few months ago is gong through implementation. This project has been problematic for a lot of reasons, so it is not unusual for a round of e-mails from the customer complaining about one thing or another. Today was a good one, however. Shows to go you have to ask things you normally wouldn't think about. DHCP - no big deal. Works fine. All of us have probably used it or configured it. All of us probably have experience with running several small sites off a single DHCP server at a central site. So why is the customer complaining about DHCP not working, and it's because our routers are screwed up and Microsoft told them that they would have to change their network addressing to a single class B rather than subnets of /16 space, the way I designed it? The routers are configured correctly. The network is designed correctly - no overlapping subnets. IP helpering is configured correctly. Problem occurs with several users, different NIC's, either Win2K or WinXP. No one common factor. Worked just fine before we put the new routers in. Recognizing that Microsoft is full of C**P and their TCP stack is S**T, still, why the problem. Gee, what happens to DHCP when you go from a single flat bridged network to a segmented routed network? Especially to mobile users, who travel from site to site for various reasons on a regular basis? Serves me right Chuck -- www.chuckslongroad.info like my web site? take the survey! Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=54434t=54402 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: Serves Me Right - DHCP problem [7:54402]
mobile IP!!! Thanks, Cil I'll throw that one out to the folks I'm working with! -- www.chuckslongroad.info like my web site? take the survey! Priscilla Oppenheimer wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... You could try Mobile IP. That would require more design and configuration on your part than perhaps you wanted to get into, though, espeically if there are lots of mobile users. But it's proven to be quite useful for wirless mobile users who have the same problem that you're describing, of course. It's not just Windoze that has the problem, is it? A Mac wouln't automatically figure out that you need a new IP address and default gateway either. But at least you don' t have to reboot with any versions of Mac OS. Well, you may not have to reboot a PC either if al you do is release and renew, or do you with 98 and earlier? Now, with AppleTalk, this sort of thing was much more automatic. But we still haven't achieved that level of sophistication in the IP world. ;-0 There is the Zero Conf group in IETF working on stuff like this. Priscilla Chuck's Long Road wrote: I see I should have made this one a Friday Folly :- In a Big Flat Bridged Network, a mobile user unplugs the laptop at one office, drives over to the next office, plugs back in, and no further action is required. The Windoze PC has retained it's IP address, and the network doesn't care about location, because it is one big flat network. However, in the brand new ATM based AVVID ready routed network, said mobile user is now in a different segment in each location. With Windoze, you have to manually intervene. Sometimes you have to release the IP address, reload the computer, and then get your new DHCP assignment. Users don't like this. After all, now they have to do something, whereas before they did not. Never mind the higher speed, the failover capability of the routers, the new 100 mbs switches rather than 10mbs. They have to take an extra step or two in order to log in. This is normal behaviour for Windoze machines, and maybe for DHCP clients in general. I have had to do this release / renew for years. But to the customer, who is pretty naive in terms of networking, there is a problem that was caused by the new routers. To the users, there is a problem that never existed before. Like I said, serves me right. You give a customer a great new network, and you break something so rudimentary that it never would have occurred otherwise. :- -- www.chuckslongroad.info like my web site? take the survey! Priscilla Oppenheimer wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Spare us the mystery and tell us what you're getting at. :-) Did you forget to tell the DHCP server to provide the correct default gateway address to the PCs? That's my guess, since you say everything else like helper addresses, etc. is configured correctly. Just a late-night theory, waiting for Jay Leno to come on. Thanks, Priscilla Chuck's Long Road wrote: The AVVID solution I sold a few months ago is gong through implementation. This project has been problematic for a lot of reasons, so it is not unusual for a round of e-mails from the customer complaining about one thing or another. Today was a good one, however. Shows to go you have to ask things you normally wouldn't think about. DHCP - no big deal. Works fine. All of us have probably used it or configured it. All of us probably have experience with running several small sites off a single DHCP server at a central site. So why is the customer complaining about DHCP not working, and it's because our routers are screwed up and Microsoft told them that they would have to change their network addressing to a single class B rather than subnets of /16 space, the way I designed it? The routers are configured correctly. The network is designed correctly - no overlapping subnets. IP helpering is configured correctly. Problem occurs with several users, different NIC's, either Win2K or WinXP. No one common factor. Worked just fine before we put the new routers in. Recognizing that Microsoft is full of C**P and their TCP stack is S**T, still, why the problem. Gee, what happens to DHCP when you go from a single flat bridged network to a segmented routed network? Especially to mobile users, who travel from site to site for various reasons on a regular basis? Serves me right Chuck -- www.chuckslongroad.info like my web site? take the survey! Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=54436t=54402 -- FAQ, list archives,
Re: OT: Serves Me Right - DHCP problem [7:54402]
Your customer would probably be gravely offended and unbelieving at the prospect that most major changes in digital computing connectivity involve a trade-off of some kind, but that doesn't render it any less accurate. In this case, since the trade-off is between exposure to non-unicast traffic and level of interactive involvement with the address procural process, why not shrink the relevant timers? Would they notice the extra traffic? If they're not happy with either scenario, then both the issue its resolution catapult way above the OSI layers that fall within the IS manufacturer's purview, usually leading to a rather ungraceful resolution. I've found that opponents of major redesigns will leverage the reality that many types of changes do NOT result in situations featuring only benefits and no drawbacks to fight or impede the cutover as vociferously as possible, forcing an appeal to the economic considerations that motivated the project in order to squelch the dissensiion. - Original Message - From: Chuck's Long Road To: Sent: 28 September 2002 1:28 pm Subject: Re: OT: Serves Me Right - DHCP problem [7:54402] I see I should have made this one a Friday Folly :- In a Big Flat Bridged Network, a mobile user unplugs the laptop at one office, drives over to the next office, plugs back in, and no further action is required. The Windoze PC has retained it's IP address, and the network doesn't care about location, because it is one big flat network. However, in the brand new ATM based AVVID ready routed network, said mobile user is now in a different segment in each location. With Windoze, you have to manually intervene. Sometimes you have to release the IP address, reload the computer, and then get your new DHCP assignment. Users don't like this. After all, now they have to do something, whereas before they did not. Never mind the higher speed, the failover capability of the routers, the new 100 mbs switches rather than 10mbs. They have to take an extra step or two in order to log in. This is normal behaviour for Windoze machines, and maybe for DHCP clients in general. I have had to do this release / renew for years. But to the customer, who is pretty naive in terms of networking, there is a problem that was caused by the new routers. To the users, there is a problem that never existed before. Like I said, serves me right. You give a customer a great new network, and you break something so rudimentary that it never would have occurred otherwise. :- -- www.chuckslongroad.info like my web site? take the survey! Priscilla Oppenheimer wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Spare us the mystery and tell us what you're getting at. :-) Did you forget to tell the DHCP server to provide the correct default gateway address to the PCs? That's my guess, since you say everything else like helper addresses, etc. is configured correctly. Just a late-night theory, waiting for Jay Leno to come on. Thanks, Priscilla Chuck's Long Road wrote: The AVVID solution I sold a few months ago is gong through implementation. This project has been problematic for a lot of reasons, so it is not unusual for a round of e-mails from the customer complaining about one thing or another. Today was a good one, however. Shows to go you have to ask things you normally wouldn't think about. DHCP - no big deal. Works fine. All of us have probably used it or configured it. All of us probably have experience with running several small sites off a single DHCP server at a central site. So why is the customer complaining about DHCP not working, and it's because our routers are screwed up and Microsoft told them that they would have to change their network addressing to a single class B rather than subnets of /16 space, the way I designed it? The routers are configured correctly. The network is designed correctly - no overlapping subnets. IP helpering is configured correctly. Problem occurs with several users, different NIC's, either Win2K or WinXP. No one common factor. Worked just fine before we put the new routers in. Recognizing that Microsoft is full of C**P and their TCP stack is S**T, still, why the problem. Gee, what happens to DHCP when you go from a single flat bridged network to a segmented routed network? Especially to mobile users, who travel from site to site for various reasons on a regular basis? Serves me right Chuck -- www.chuckslongroad.info like my web site? take the survey! Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=54439t=54402 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: OT: Serves Me Right - DHCP problem [7:54402]
Hi Kevin, Sounds like your facing a well known problem in a switched network in my opinion. I guess your clients where previous on a shared network ? So 9/10 there was no STP running on every port. But in a switched network all port's will run STP. The problem that you will get on switched networks is the following. Window PC's are seeing that there NIC is up and start sending DHCP requests. The port on the switch is unluckily still in the listen / learning phase. So all these DHCP request are just getting dropped by the switch port. Windows PC just thinks that he can't reach the DHCP server. A simple release / renew will fix the problem indeed. The port will be in forwarding state by now. A lot of user will try to reload their pc's but will be facing the same issue again. (Port goes down on the switch) I just hope that you are aware of a feature called spanning-tree portfast. This will make the port on the switch to skip the listen / learning state and go immediately to forwarding. This should be enabled on all user cats anyway to avoid TCN msg. (could cause unnecessary floodings) On the catalyst there is even a build in command that will optimize the user ports further. Set port host mod/port That will even turn trunking and channeling of. SO it will even minimize the total time for a packet can be forwarded. Regards Joachim -Original Message- From: Kevin Cullimore [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 28 September 2002 20:46 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: OT: Serves Me Right - DHCP problem [7:54402] Your customer would probably be gravely offended and unbelieving at the prospect that most major changes in digital computing connectivity involve a trade-off of some kind, but that doesn't render it any less accurate. In this case, since the trade-off is between exposure to non-unicast traffic and level of interactive involvement with the address procural process, why not shrink the relevant timers? Would they notice the extra traffic? If they're not happy with either scenario, then both the issue its resolution catapult way above the OSI layers that fall within the IS manufacturer's purview, usually leading to a rather ungraceful resolution. I've found that opponents of major redesigns will leverage the reality that many types of changes do NOT result in situations featuring only benefits and no drawbacks to fight or impede the cutover as vociferously as possible, forcing an appeal to the economic considerations that motivated the project in order to squelch the dissensiion. - Original Message - From: Chuck's Long Road To: Sent: 28 September 2002 1:28 pm Subject: Re: OT: Serves Me Right - DHCP problem [7:54402] I see I should have made this one a Friday Folly :- In a Big Flat Bridged Network, a mobile user unplugs the laptop at one office, drives over to the next office, plugs back in, and no further action is required. The Windoze PC has retained it's IP address, and the network doesn't care about location, because it is one big flat network. However, in the brand new ATM based AVVID ready routed network, said mobile user is now in a different segment in each location. With Windoze, you have to manually intervene. Sometimes you have to release the IP address, reload the computer, and then get your new DHCP assignment. Users don't like this. After all, now they have to do something, whereas before they did not. Never mind the higher speed, the failover capability of the routers, the new 100 mbs switches rather than 10mbs. They have to take an extra step or two in order to log in. This is normal behaviour for Windoze machines, and maybe for DHCP clients in general. I have had to do this release / renew for years. But to the customer, who is pretty naive in terms of networking, there is a problem that was caused by the new routers. To the users, there is a problem that never existed before. Like I said, serves me right. You give a customer a great new network, and you break something so rudimentary that it never would have occurred otherwise. :- -- www.chuckslongroad.info like my web site? take the survey! Priscilla Oppenheimer wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Spare us the mystery and tell us what you're getting at. :-) Did you forget to tell the DHCP server to provide the correct default gateway address to the PCs? That's my guess, since you say everything else like helper addresses, etc. is configured correctly. Just a late-night theory, waiting for Jay Leno to come on. Thanks, Priscilla Chuck's Long Road wrote: The AVVID solution I sold a few months ago is gong through implementation. This project has been problematic for a lot of reasons, so it is not unusual for a round of e-mails from the customer complaining about one thing or another. Today was a good one, however. Shows to go you have to ask things you normally wouldn't thi
Re: OT: Serves Me Right - DHCP problem [7:54402]
why is that ? we have segmented avvid network across our campus. The laptops are all W2K and they work just fine without any issues on DHCP...The routers are all running hsrp and work correctly.. Chuck's Long Road wrote: I see I should have made this one a Friday Folly :- In a Big Flat Bridged Network, a mobile user unplugs the laptop at one office, drives over to the next office, plugs back in, and no further action is required. The Windoze PC has retained it's IP address, and the network doesn't care about location, because it is one big flat network. However, in the brand new ATM based AVVID ready routed network, said mobile user is now in a different segment in each location. With Windoze, you have to manually intervene. Sometimes you have to release the IP address, reload the computer, and then get your new DHCP assignment. Users don't like this. After all, now they have to do something, whereas before they did not. Never mind the higher speed, the failover capability of the routers, the new 100 mbs switches rather than 10mbs. They have to take an extra step or two in order to log in. This is normal behaviour for Windoze machines, and maybe for DHCP clients in general. I have had to do this release / renew for years. But to the customer, who is pretty naive in terms of networking, there is a problem that was caused by the new routers. To the users, there is a problem that never existed before. Like I said, serves me right. You give a customer a great new network, and you break something so rudimentary that it never would have occurred otherwise. :- -- www.chuckslongroad.info like my web site? take the survey! Priscilla Oppenheimer wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Spare us the mystery and tell us what you're getting at. :-) Did you forget to tell the DHCP server to provide the correct default gateway address to the PCs? That's my guess, since you say everything else like helper addresses, etc. is configured correctly. Just a late-night theory, waiting for Jay Leno to come on. Thanks, Priscilla Chuck's Long Road wrote: The AVVID solution I sold a few months ago is gong through implementation. This project has been problematic for a lot of reasons, so it is not unusual for a round of e-mails from the customer complaining about one thing or another. Today was a good one, however. Shows to go you have to ask things you normally wouldn't think about. DHCP - no big deal. Works fine. All of us have probably used it or configured it. All of us probably have experience with running several small sites off a single DHCP server at a central site. So why is the customer complaining about DHCP not working, and it's because our routers are screwed up and Microsoft told them that they would have to change their network addressing to a single class B rather than subnets of /16 space, the way I designed it? The routers are configured correctly. The network is designed correctly - no overlapping subnets. IP helpering is configured correctly. Problem occurs with several users, different NIC's, either Win2K or WinXP. No one common factor. Worked just fine before we put the new routers in. Recognizing that Microsoft is full of C**P and their TCP stack is S**T, still, why the problem. Gee, what happens to DHCP when you go from a single flat bridged network to a segmented routed network? Especially to mobile users, who travel from site to site for various reasons on a regular basis? Serves me right Chuck -- www.chuckslongroad.info like my web site? take the survey! -- Larry Letterman Network Engineer Cisco Systems Inc. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=54451t=54402 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: Serves Me Right - DHCP problem [7:54402]
Because pre-W2K windows didn't automatically try to renew a lease when the ethernet interface comes back up after being down. So...if the old lease hadn't come up for renewal during the time the machine moved from point A to B.the users don't automatically get connectivity. Lots of options to teach the helpdesk how to educate usersbut since it 'worked before' in Chuck's case it's seen as a (big?) problem(PITA). Larry Letterman wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... why is that ? we have segmented avvid network across our campus. The laptops are all W2K and they work just fine without any issues on DHCP...The routers are all running hsrp and work correctly.. Chuck's Long Road wrote: I see I should have made this one a Friday Folly :- In a Big Flat Bridged Network, a mobile user unplugs the laptop at one office, drives over to the next office, plugs back in, and no further action is required. The Windoze PC has retained it's IP address, and the network doesn't care about location, because it is one big flat network. However, in the brand new ATM based AVVID ready routed network, said mobile user is now in a different segment in each location. With Windoze, you have to manually intervene. Sometimes you have to release the IP address, reload the computer, and then get your new DHCP assignment. Users don't like this. After all, now they have to do something, whereas before they did not. Never mind the higher speed, the failover capability of the routers, the new 100 mbs switches rather than 10mbs. They have to take an extra step or two in order to log in. This is normal behaviour for Windoze machines, and maybe for DHCP clients in general. I have had to do this release / renew for years. But to the customer, who is pretty naive in terms of networking, there is a problem that was caused by the new routers. To the users, there is a problem that never existed before. Like I said, serves me right. You give a customer a great new network, and you break something so rudimentary that it never would have occurred otherwise. :- -- www.chuckslongroad.info like my web site? take the survey! Priscilla Oppenheimer wrote in message [EMAIL PROTECTED]">news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]... Spare us the mystery and tell us what you're getting at. :-) Did you forget to tell the DHCP server to provide the correct default gateway address to the PCs? That's my guess, since you say everything else like helper addresses, etc. is configured correctly. Just a late-night theory, waiting for Jay Leno to come on. Thanks, Priscilla Chuck's Long Road wrote: The AVVID solution I sold a few months ago is gong through implementation. This project has been problematic for a lot of reasons, so it is not unusual for a round of e-mails from the customer complaining about one thing or another. Today was a good one, however. Shows to go you have to ask things you normally wouldn't think about. DHCP - no big deal. Works fine. All of us have probably used it or configured it. All of us probably have experience with running several small sites off a single DHCP server at a central site. So why is the customer complaining about DHCP not working, and it's because our routers are screwed up and Microsoft told them that they would have to change their network addressing to a single class B rather than subnets of /16 space, the way I designed it? The routers are configured correctly. The network is designed correctly - no overlapping subnets. IP helpering is configured correctly. Problem occurs with several users, different NIC's, either Win2K or WinXP. No one common factor. Worked just fine before we put the new routers in. Recognizing that Microsoft is full of C**P and their TCP stack is S**T, still, why the problem. Gee, what happens to DHCP when you go from a single flat bridged network to a segmented routed network? Especially to mobile users, who travel from site to site for various reasons on a regular basis? Serves me right Chuck -- www.chuckslongroad.info like my web site? take the survey! -- Larry Letterman Network Engineer Cisco Systems Inc. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=54462t=54402 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: Serves Me Right - DHCP problem [7:54402]
Chuck, Have you tried to shorten the DHCP lease time? --- Larry Letterman wrote: why is that ? we have segmented avvid network across our campus. The laptops are all W2K and they work just fine without any issues on DHCP...The routers are all running hsrp and work correctly.. Chuck's Long Road wrote: I see I should have made this one a Friday Folly :- In a Big Flat Bridged Network, a mobile user unplugs the laptop at one office, drives over to the next office, plugs back in, and no further action is required. The Windoze PC has retained it's IP address, and the network doesn't care about location, because it is one big flat network. However, in the brand new ATM based AVVID ready routed network, said mobile user is now in a different segment in each location. With Windoze, you have to manually intervene. Sometimes you have to release the IP address, reload the computer, and then get your new DHCP assignment. Users don't like this. After all, now they have to do something, whereas before they did not. Never mind the higher speed, the failover capability of the routers, the new 100 mbs switches rather than 10mbs. They have to take an extra step or two in order to log in. This is normal behaviour for Windoze machines, and maybe for DHCP clients in general. I have had to do this release / renew for years. But to the customer, who is pretty naive in terms of networking, there is a problem that was caused by the new routers. To the users, there is a problem that never existed before. Like I said, serves me right. You give a customer a great new network, and you break something so rudimentary that it never would have occurred otherwise. :- -- www.chuckslongroad.info like my web site? take the survey! __ Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC Yahoo! http://sbc.yahoo.com Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=54465t=54402 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
OT: Serves Me Right - DHCP problem [7:54402]
The AVVID solution I sold a few months ago is gong through implementation. This project has been problematic for a lot of reasons, so it is not unusual for a round of e-mails from the customer complaining about one thing or another. Today was a good one, however. Shows to go you have to ask things you normally wouldn't think about. DHCP - no big deal. Works fine. All of us have probably used it or configured it. All of us probably have experience with running several small sites off a single DHCP server at a central site. So why is the customer complaining about DHCP not working, and it's because our routers are screwed up and Microsoft told them that they would have to change their network addressing to a single class B rather than subnets of /16 space, the way I designed it? The routers are configured correctly. The network is designed correctly - no overlapping subnets. IP helpering is configured correctly. Problem occurs with several users, different NIC's, either Win2K or WinXP. No one common factor. Worked just fine before we put the new routers in. Recognizing that Microsoft is full of C**P and their TCP stack is S**T, still, why the problem. Gee, what happens to DHCP when you go from a single flat bridged network to a segmented routed network? Especially to mobile users, who travel from site to site for various reasons on a regular basis? Serves me right Chuck -- www.chuckslongroad.info like my web site? take the survey! Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=54402t=54402 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: OT: Serves Me Right - DHCP problem [7:54402]
Spare us the mystery and tell us what you're getting at. :-) Did you forget to tell the DHCP server to provide the correct default gateway address to the PCs? That's my guess, since you say everything else like helper addresses, etc. is configured correctly. Just a late-night theory, waiting for Jay Leno to come on. Thanks, Priscilla Chuck's Long Road wrote: The AVVID solution I sold a few months ago is gong through implementation. This project has been problematic for a lot of reasons, so it is not unusual for a round of e-mails from the customer complaining about one thing or another. Today was a good one, however. Shows to go you have to ask things you normally wouldn't think about. DHCP - no big deal. Works fine. All of us have probably used it or configured it. All of us probably have experience with running several small sites off a single DHCP server at a central site. So why is the customer complaining about DHCP not working, and it's because our routers are screwed up and Microsoft told them that they would have to change their network addressing to a single class B rather than subnets of /16 space, the way I designed it? The routers are configured correctly. The network is designed correctly - no overlapping subnets. IP helpering is configured correctly. Problem occurs with several users, different NIC's, either Win2K or WinXP. No one common factor. Worked just fine before we put the new routers in. Recognizing that Microsoft is full of C**P and their TCP stack is S**T, still, why the problem. Gee, what happens to DHCP when you go from a single flat bridged network to a segmented routed network? Especially to mobile users, who travel from site to site for various reasons on a regular basis? Serves me right Chuck -- www.chuckslongroad.info like my web site? take the survey! Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=54412t=54402 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
