RE: VLAN's and Routers [7:2534]
Of course dualies are feasible. That's all a router is after all. :) The biggest problem with adding NIC's to a server split between subnets is one of name resolution. You might need to put custom HOST and LMHOST files on your workstations to point them to the appropriate IP address. Example: hosts on the 10.1.1.0/24 network need to be able to resolve MAIL to 10.1.1.5, but hosts on the 10.1.2.0/24 network need to resolve the same name, MAIL, to 10.1.2.5 Make sure that the first network doesn't wind up looking for the NIC on the second network. Oh, and Win9x doesn't generally deal well with multiple NICs, so this is an NT/2K only type of deal. Or *nix. :) This is not a substitution for routing between VLANS. I would not recommend using NT 4 as a router but W2K does a decent job in a pinch. It even does RIP v2 and OSPF. There is even a stripped down version of IGMP. Hell of an ok P/NAT box. Just remember that a server is there to serve and there is only so much PCI bus to go around. You don't want to run the thing out of internal bandwidth while you are trying to shuffle I/O to the SQL or Exchange processes. If you decide to do it, be sure to monitor your server's performance and keep tabs on the end users experience so that you know if things go south. All in all, it's usually cheaper in support dollars to have a dedicated router - even if it does have a Microsoft OS. Novel handles the name thing a bit differently than NT/2K, so if that's your server disregard. For information on HOST and LMHOST files, see the documentation in the sample files on your server. Remember that you can preload part of the LMHOST file using the #PRE tag and #DOM is for your domain controllers. Now, after I go and say all that let us all gather round and face the facts: This is a Cisco type email list. There IS a Cisco answer. TTFN, Bill 'layer 4 and up is for end users' Pearch, Anchorage AK -Original Message- From: Sammi [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 7:35 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: VLAN's and Routers [7:2534] Are dual NIC's feasible? Seems on the surface to be cheaper and more straightforward but haven't seen it mentioned so I may be missing something. I can actually give each department their own server but accessing the email server would present problems. On 1 May 2001 10:47:35 -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Curtis Call) wrote: You could buy a special NIC card for your server that can handle ISL encapsulated frames. It might be cheaper to buy a router though since I don't think the lower end switches support ISL anyway. At 12:25 PM 4/30/01, you wrote: Thanks all, that clarifies somewhat. On 30 Apr 2001 14:06:09 -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Karen E Young) wrote: Usually there needs to be some form of communication between VLANS though, so practically speaking you do need a router. What I would like to do is create broadcast domains for different departments, ie finance, admin. But all departments would need to communicate with the same server(s). I'd like to implement VLAN's without the expense of having to purchase routers, but doesn't seem like it's feasible? I have ordered P. Openheimer's (sp) Top Down Design book and that may better guide me in trying to implement an efficient network design. FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=2858t=2534 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VLAN's and Routers [7:2534]
On 2 May 2001 02:45:45 -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bill Pearch) wrote: This is a Cisco type email list. There IS a Cisco answer. And that's what I'm after, was just exploring other possibilities. Now I need to decide what type of router to purchase; ~150 users split between 4-6 VLAN's. Thanks for the tips! Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=2928t=2534 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: VLAN's and Routers [7:2534]
Sammi, in terms of sizing, the best piece of equipment is the least cost router that does the job. Think in these terms - traffic flow, application requirements, etc. If you were routing between two subnets, using two ethernet ports, and had 75 users per subnet, how would you provision? The only difference between 150 users on four physical subnets and 150 users on four logical subnets is the single interface that traffic in and out uses, versus the four interfaces. Are your applications such that 150 folks are going to overload that 100 megabits full duplex link? In practical terms, will there be a lot of inter-VLAN traffic? I.e do members of each VLAN access the same primary servers ( which would lead me to wonder why you need VLANs in the first place ), or do they all access servers specific to their VLAN? All your routes will be in cache probably 100% of the time. You won't be killing the CPU with route lookups in any case. HTH Chuck -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 12:02 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject:Re: VLAN's and Routers [7:2534] On 2 May 2001 02:45:45 -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bill Pearch) wrote: This is a Cisco type email list. There IS a Cisco answer. And that's what I'm after, was just exploring other possibilities. Now I need to decide what type of router to purchase; ~150 users split between 4-6 VLAN's. Thanks for the tips! FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=2932t=2534 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VLAN's and Routers [7:2534]
You could buy a special NIC card for your server that can handle ISL encapsulated frames. It might be cheaper to buy a router though since I don't think the lower end switches support ISL anyway. At 12:25 PM 4/30/01, you wrote: Thanks all, that clarifies somewhat. On 30 Apr 2001 14:06:09 -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Karen E Young) wrote: Usually there needs to be some form of communication between VLANS though, so practically speaking you do need a router. What I would like to do is create broadcast domains for different departments, ie finance, admin. But all departments would need to communicate with the same server(s). I'd like to implement VLAN's without the expense of having to purchase routers, but doesn't seem like it's feasible? I have ordered P. Openheimer's (sp) Top Down Design book and that may better guide me in trying to implement an efficient network design. FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=2744t=2534 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VLAN's and Routers [7:2534]
Are dual NIC's feasible? Seems on the surface to be cheaper and more straightforward but haven't seen it mentioned so I may be missing something. I can actually give each department their own server but accessing the email server would present problems. On 1 May 2001 10:47:35 -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Curtis Call) wrote: You could buy a special NIC card for your server that can handle ISL encapsulated frames. It might be cheaper to buy a router though since I don't think the lower end switches support ISL anyway. At 12:25 PM 4/30/01, you wrote: Thanks all, that clarifies somewhat. On 30 Apr 2001 14:06:09 -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Karen E Young) wrote: Usually there needs to be some form of communication between VLANS though, so practically speaking you do need a router. What I would like to do is create broadcast domains for different departments, ie finance, admin. But all departments would need to communicate with the same server(s). I'd like to implement VLAN's without the expense of having to purchase routers, but doesn't seem like it's feasible? I have ordered P. Openheimer's (sp) Top Down Design book and that may better guide me in trying to implement an efficient network design. FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=2756t=2534 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VLAN's and Routers [7:2534]
Personally I think you'd be better off getting a router. At 09:35 AM 5/1/01, you wrote: Are dual NIC's feasible? Seems on the surface to be cheaper and more straightforward but haven't seen it mentioned so I may be missing something. I can actually give each department their own server but accessing the email server would present problems. On 1 May 2001 10:47:35 -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Curtis Call) wrote: You could buy a special NIC card for your server that can handle ISL encapsulated frames. It might be cheaper to buy a router though since I don't think the lower end switches support ISL anyway. At 12:25 PM 4/30/01, you wrote: Thanks all, that clarifies somewhat. On 30 Apr 2001 14:06:09 -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Karen E Young) wrote: Usually there needs to be some form of communication between VLANS though, so practically speaking you do need a router. What I would like to do is create broadcast domains for different departments, ie finance, admin. But all departments would need to communicate with the same server(s). I'd like to implement VLAN's without the expense of having to purchase routers, but doesn't seem like it's feasible? I have ordered P. Openheimer's (sp) Top Down Design book and that may better guide me in trying to implement an efficient network design. FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=2838t=2534 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: VLAN's and Routers [7:2534]
Hi Sammi, You can create 10.200.1.x/24 as VLAN 1 10.200.2.x/24 as VLAN 2 this will isolate the broadcast within the VLAN. You can't create 10.200.1.x/16 as VLAN 1 10.200.2.x/16 or /24 as VLAN 2 because VLAN 2 will become part of VLAN 1, does not serve the purpose of having VLAN configuration. Andy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, April 30, 2001 2:14 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: VLAN's and Routers [7:2534] Still struggling with VLAN's and a basic question escapes me. If I create: VLAN1 as 10.200.1.x/16 VLAN2 as 10.200.2.x/16 or /24 I get VLAN's overlap, which I assume is a bad thing (at least at my skill level, I understand you could use overlapped VLAN's). So, I'm confused how I can assign scopes to each VLAN, what the exact rules are. I'm starting to come to the conclusion I cannot use VLAN's without a router. Is that a correct assumption? Any help, tips, leads appreciated. FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=2543t=2534 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VLAN's and Routers [7:2534]
Just think of VLANs as normal broadcast domains. One routes between broadcast domains. Your config does not create an overlap between the VLANs, but rather between the IP subnets. To properly route between broadcast domains, you must have unique IP subnets that do not overlap. Pete *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 4/30/2001 at 2:13 AM Sammi wrote: Still struggling with VLAN's and a basic question escapes me. If I create: VLAN1 as 10.200.1.x/16 VLAN2 as 10.200.2.x/16 or /24 I get VLAN's overlap, which I assume is a bad thing (at least at my skill level, I understand you could use overlapped VLAN's). So, I'm confused how I can assign scopes to each VLAN, what the exact rules are. I'm starting to come to the conclusion I cannot use VLAN's without a router. Is that a correct assumption? Any help, tips, leads appreciated. FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=2558t=2534 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VLAN's and Routers [7:2534]
Sammi, You can always create VLANs without a router, you just can't move traffic between them. If you have a situation where you have two networks that exist in the same location but need to be kept strictly seperate (such as a production and a test network) then it isn't necessarily a bad thing to segregate the traffic. Usually there needs to be some form of communication between VLANS though, so practically speaking you do need a router. About the overlapping VLANs... Looks like you might have forgotten to take into account the difference between classful and classless (VLSM) addressing. Quick subnetting summary: if it says class x with ## bits of masking then you add the ## of masking bits to the default subnet mask for the address class. If it says x.x.x.x/## then the number of bits listed for subnetting is the entire mask, not just the extra not included in the default class mask. The first method is classful addressing, the second is classless. Remember, routers aren't very bright. They aren't smart enough to know that network 10.200.x.x/16 is on VLAN 1 if the 3rd octet has a value of 1 and on VLAN 2 if it has a value of 2. You need to tell it (via the subnet mask) the entire network address, not just part of it. Hope this helps, Karen *** REPLY SEPARATOR *** On 4/30/2001 at 2:13 AM Sammi wrote: Still struggling with VLAN's and a basic question escapes me. If I create: VLAN1 as 10.200.1.x/16 VLAN2 as 10.200.2.x/16 or /24 I get VLAN's overlap, which I assume is a bad thing (at least at my skill level, I understand you could use overlapped VLAN's). So, I'm confused how I can assign scopes to each VLAN, what the exact rules are. I'm starting to come to the conclusion I cannot use VLAN's without a router. Is that a correct assumption? Any help, tips, leads appreciated. FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=2593t=2534 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VLAN's and Routers [7:2534]
Thanks all, that clarifies somewhat. On 30 Apr 2001 14:06:09 -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Karen E Young) wrote: Usually there needs to be some form of communication between VLANS though, so practically speaking you do need a router. What I would like to do is create broadcast domains for different departments, ie finance, admin. But all departments would need to communicate with the same server(s). I'd like to implement VLAN's without the expense of having to purchase routers, but doesn't seem like it's feasible? I have ordered P. Openheimer's (sp) Top Down Design book and that may better guide me in trying to implement an efficient network design. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=2595t=2534 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VLAN's and Routers [7:2534]
Thanks all, that clarifies somewhat. On 30 Apr 2001 14:06:09 -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Karen E Young) wrote: Usually there needs to be some form of communication between VLANS though, so practically speaking you do need a router. What I would like to do is create broadcast domains for different departments, ie finance, admin. But all departments would need to communicate with the same server(s). Have you looked at VLAN-aware NICs on the server? They would let you have a logical interface in each VLAN. There may be more basic questions. Approximately how many hosts are in each department? What protocols do they run? Is there a specific reason you think you may have a problem with broadcasts? Are the hosts plugged into switches that can do per-port broadcast rate limiting? I'd like to implement VLAN's without the expense of having to purchase routers, but doesn't seem like it's feasible? I have ordered P. Openheimer's (sp) Top Down Design book and that may better guide me in trying to implement an efficient network design. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=2598t=2534 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: VLAN's and Routers [7:2534]
On 30 Apr 2001 15:06:15 -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Howard C. Berkowitz) wrote: Thanks all, that clarifies somewhat. On 30 Apr 2001 14:06:09 -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Karen E Young) wrote: Usually there needs to be some form of communication between VLANS though, so practically speaking you do need a router. What I would like to do is create broadcast domains for different departments, ie finance, admin. But all departments would need to communicate with the same server(s). Have you looked at VLAN-aware NICs on the server? They would let you have a logical interface in each VLAN. I haven't, but I will do so. There may be more basic questions. Approximately how many hosts are in each department? What protocols do they run? Is there a specific reason you think you may have a problem with broadcasts? Are the hosts plugged into switches that can do per-port broadcast rate limiting? From my limited knowledge I've observed that there is no network management. All switches are run out of the box. It seems we would get more efficiency by isolating departments. There are 6 - 12 hosts in a typical department, most located in a one floor building with four wings, others located in various quonset huts connected to main via fibre. Currently running Banyan IP, am migrating the environment to 2000 and rebuilding the infrastructure in the process. I am replacing the 2800 and 1900 switches with Catalyst 2900xl, I haven't seen mention of throttling capability. My goal is to simplify management, or centralize may be more accurate, and make the network as efficient as possible. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7i=2637t=2534 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
