RE: CCIE Written Test - retraction
There are only so many ways to ask how much is 2+2. -Original Message- From: Elijah Landreth [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2001 12:48 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: CCIE Written Test - retraction Hey All- I neither meant to piss anyone off, nor to break a NDA. We all know that the CCIE is the top dog of tests. All of us have studied hard to get here, and everyone in this room is looking for a little help in studying for this. When I got home from the test today, I tried to remember all of the areas that were of question to me. None of the questions I posted were verbatim... they couldn't be, since we all know there is NO way to bring a copy of the test out with you! But knowing that most, if not all, of the people who frequent this room are studying to achieve the same result, I was looking for some peer help. I am a little unsure what happened to cause as harsh a response as I have received from what I posted. If I have tread in an area that I am unaware of, I will remove myself from further discussion. I am not in the habit of posting here, but rather simply of reading all of your helpful information. I would be grateful if someone could CALMLY explain where I went wrong in my wording. Many times in the past I have seen others post lists of questions that they too have had regarding this test, as well as other tests in other study groups. This appeared to be the proper place to post my questions and receive help in understanding things I may have needed help with As for "reporting" me to Cisco, or a moderator, or whomever- I feel that I need to understand my violation before I am sentenced. I will contact someone myself if necessary, and have my post removed from future viewing, if that is appropriate. However, I am still unclear as to WHY my post caused the distress it appears to have been responsible for. My sincere apologies... _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE Written Test - retraction
Hello, I always like the view that you take exams to enhance your knowledge - that is the goal. I think the goal of Cisco is to enhance the customer service by having lots of competent engineers, because happy customers buy more stuff. However let's not be naïve, certifications also mean money. To be a Cisco partner you need several CCIE's and CCDP's (depending on the type, gold, silver...). Being a Cisco partner means discounts and other advantages. There we are talking about money. If you are certified you can either bring money indirectly because you are competent, but also directly because of the discounts. And from an individual point of view, I think that if your real desire is to gain knowledge and understanding, and not career advancement or money, learning by yourself without taking exams is enough. To answer your question : Who gets ahead faster - the paper tiger or the engineer who gained knowledge through experience and research? If you are applying for a job in a Cisco partner company, I think the answer is the paper tiger. That being said, I think legitimate the idea of collaboration in order to prepare the exams. If you are not aware of the kind of questions you will have, just take the exam once and you will know. The only difference is you will lose time and money. Kind Regards Laurent >From: Edward Hartman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Reply-To: Edward Hartman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Subject: Re: CCIE Written Test - retraction >Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 23:43:39 -0500 > >Let's not split hairs here, as I doubt Cisco is/would. I agree with Ed's >last statement > >Cisco provides a list of topics for the exam. We can express our personal >opinion of TECHNOLOGY that we think is important for a career regardless if >it appears on an exam. Even if that opinion has been influenced by test >questions, we still would not violate the NDA if we phrased our question >and answer in terms of GAINING KNOWLEDGE rather than passing an >exam. Relating the question or answer as it pertains to the test is a >violation. > >Why not keep it simple - leave the fact of a test question out of the >inquiry. Besides, what is the REAL goal of us being here - to pass an exam >or to gain knowledge to enhance our career? (Seriously, ask yourself this >question and you will gain insight to your career.) One may influence the >other, but the REAL reward as I see it comes from the knowledge we >gain. Who gets ahead faster - the paper tiger or the engineer who gained >knowledge through experience and research? > >Back to the topic...If your real desire is to gain knowledge and >understanding, how does mentioning the test in your post here have anything >to do with this? Sure you want to pass, but post your question in terms >and context of gaining knowledge, not passing a test. > >What is the difference between "On the such-and-such test, they ask what is >the purpose of a subnet mask. Please help." and "What is the purpose of >the subnet mask? Please help." I think either question would get the same >response. The only difference is that the wording of the first question >CAN be considered a violation of the NDA. > >Cisco CAN NOT include public knowledge in the NDA - they can only protect >things that pertain to their tests. I think if we do not mention the test >when we ask questions - even those requiring specific detail - we will >still get the answer we are looking for, but without violating the NDA. I >believe had Elijah Landreth, the originator of this thread, asked his >questions without framing them around a test, we would not have had so much >of an uproar and he MAY have gotten all his questions answered!! > >So how about this for a "policy": Regarding TESTS - don't ask about it, >don't tell about it. Cisco provides all the information they want us to >know. Regarding networking, let's teach one another all we can. > >-Eddie > > >At 02:47 PM 1/14/01 -0600, Ed Moss wrote: > >This does cause a bit of confusion I took the CCIE writen twice. I >saw > >the same question on each test. It was in the format of select all that > >apply. After each test, I looked and looked on CCO to find the possible > >answer. I researched each of the possible answers that I was >presented... > >and still was unable to find the correct "Cisco" answer. I do like to >know > >where I went wrong - how can I ask this, without violating the NDA? > >I mean exactly where is the line that will violate the NDA. How many >have > >read version 7 of the Cisco Career Certifications Agreement? In the > >agreement they make a very broad statent regarding "proprietary >inforamt
Re: CCIE Written Test - retraction
Let's not split hairs here, as I doubt Cisco is/would. I agree with Ed's last statement Cisco provides a list of topics for the exam. We can express our personal opinion of TECHNOLOGY that we think is important for a career regardless if it appears on an exam. Even if that opinion has been influenced by test questions, we still would not violate the NDA if we phrased our question and answer in terms of GAINING KNOWLEDGE rather than passing an exam. Relating the question or answer as it pertains to the test is a violation. Why not keep it simple - leave the fact of a test question out of the inquiry. Besides, what is the REAL goal of us being here - to pass an exam or to gain knowledge to enhance our career? (Seriously, ask yourself this question and you will gain insight to your career.) One may influence the other, but the REAL reward as I see it comes from the knowledge we gain. Who gets ahead faster - the paper tiger or the engineer who gained knowledge through experience and research? Back to the topic...If your real desire is to gain knowledge and understanding, how does mentioning the test in your post here have anything to do with this? Sure you want to pass, but post your question in terms and context of gaining knowledge, not passing a test. What is the difference between "On the such-and-such test, they ask what is the purpose of a subnet mask. Please help." and "What is the purpose of the subnet mask? Please help." I think either question would get the same response. The only difference is that the wording of the first question CAN be considered a violation of the NDA. Cisco CAN NOT include public knowledge in the NDA - they can only protect things that pertain to their tests. I think if we do not mention the test when we ask questions - even those requiring specific detail - we will still get the answer we are looking for, but without violating the NDA. I believe had Elijah Landreth, the originator of this thread, asked his questions without framing them around a test, we would not have had so much of an uproar and he MAY have gotten all his questions answered!! So how about this for a "policy": Regarding TESTS - don't ask about it, don't tell about it. Cisco provides all the information they want us to know. Regarding networking, let's teach one another all we can. -Eddie At 02:47 PM 1/14/01 -0600, Ed Moss wrote: >This does cause a bit of confusion I took the CCIE writen twice. I saw >the same question on each test. It was in the format of select all that >apply. After each test, I looked and looked on CCO to find the possible >answer. I researched each of the possible answers that I was presented... >and still was unable to find the correct "Cisco" answer. I do like to know >where I went wrong - how can I ask this, without violating the NDA? >I mean exactly where is the line that will violate the NDA. How many have >read version 7 of the Cisco Career Certifications Agreement? In the >agreement they make a very broad statent regarding "proprietary inforamtion" >that includes: >Section 6... "questions, answers, worksheets, diagrams, lenghth and/or >number of exam segments and/or questions, or any communication, including >verbal communication regarding or related to the exam..." > >In the broadest sence, I take this to mean, if it was on the test, we can >not discuss the topic as it relates to the test.If this is the case, >everyone on the list is guilty! Case in point, If I took the test, >and saw a question that is related to decoding the RIF, and someone is going >to take the test asks "how is the RIF put together." Under the agreement, >that would be confidential. Even if Cisco has previously disclosed this >information! > >Hmmm... even in Secion 8, Conduct of Business, of the agreement, "... shall >conduct his business in a manner which reflects favorably upon the >products, services, reputaion and goodwill of Cisco..." Does this mean that >if we work for a reseller, and a customer asks us to compare Cisco's product >X to Competitor's product Y, that we have to say the Cisco product is >better? I mean if we say that the competitor's product is better, it >dosen't "refelct favorably" upon the Cisco product, even if it is true! > >The above are taken to the extreme. In my mind, a violation is if I ask "I >had this question on the exam, what are the answers". Or if I say "I had >the following on my exam" > >If someone asks a question, with the intent of learning the technology, and >not to just pass the exam, I will help where I can. Of course, the grey >area of violating the NDA is out there somewhere. > >Ed _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE Written Test - retraction
This does cause a bit of confusion I took the CCIE writen twice. I saw the same question on each test. It was in the format of select all that apply. After each test, I looked and looked on CCO to find the possible answer. I researched each of the possible answers that I was presented... and still was unable to find the correct "Cisco" answer. I do like to know where I went wrong - how can I ask this, without violating the NDA? I mean exactly where is the line that will violate the NDA. How many have read version 7 of the Cisco Career Certifications Agreement? In the agreement they make a very broad statent regarding "proprietary inforamtion" that includes: Section 6... "questions, answers, worksheets, diagrams, lenghth and/or number of exam segments and/or questions, or any communication, including verbal communication regarding or related to the exam..." In the broadest sence, I take this to mean, if it was on the test, we can not discuss the topic as it relates to the test.If this is the case, everyone on the list is guilty! Case in point, If I took the test, and saw a question that is related to decoding the RIF, and someone is going to take the test asks "how is the RIF put together." Under the agreement, that would be confidential. Even if Cisco has previously disclosed this information! Hmmm... even in Secion 8, Conduct of Business, of the agreement, "... shall conduct his business in a manner which reflects favorably upon the products, services, reputaion and goodwill of Cisco..." Does this mean that if we work for a reseller, and a customer asks us to compare Cisco's product X to Competitor's product Y, that we have to say the Cisco product is better? I mean if we say that the competitor's product is better, it dosen't "refelct favorably" upon the Cisco product, even if it is true! The above are taken to the extreme. In my mind, a violation is if I ask "I had this question on the exam, what are the answers". Or if I say "I had the following on my exam" If someone asks a question, with the intent of learning the technology, and not to just pass the exam, I will help where I can. Of course, the grey area of violating the NDA is out there somewhere. Ed _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE Written Test - retraction
All- While the list of Q's that Elijah posted may have been helpful, it does tread close to (if not directly) violating Cisco's NDA. Cisco has clearly posted on their web site a list of areas in which you need to be proficient to pass the CCIE written exam. This is all we need. Posting test questions based on the exam you just took can give Cisco cause to revoke your certification and prevent you from attaining new certifications. That is a risk no one serious about their Cisco career would consciously take. I think this is a wake-up call for us to remain focused on our goals - sharing knowledge for the purpose of assisting others and enriching our own professional career. But we need to be cautious of the information we share. It is a matter of professionalism and common courtesy. As a Technical Instructor, I have found merely GIVING someone the answer is not the best manner for teaching them. Real appreciation of knowledge comes when there is a significant amount of effort in gaining that knowledge. Also, a greater amount of self-respect, personal achievement and professional confidence is gained when we do it ourselves - when we solve the problem on our own. This is not to say we ALWAYS need to work hard to find the answer, but don't you feel great when YOU solved it?! And those problems that cause us the most headache (passing the LAB) give us the most reward/satisfaction when WE solve them. Sure, we all need assistance now and then, but do we need to be spoon-fed all the answers? How can we ever learn to troubleshoot or learn on our own? When my students are working on a problem and need assistance, I never answer their questions directly. Rather, I ask questions that they should be asking as they search for the answer or solve the problem. I only guide them - THEY find the answer. I have found with this method they learn how to think for themselves and learn how find the answers. With this process they learn how to find the answers. There is much more than knowing how to answer a question. We should not seek to know, but to understand. (OK, enough of the ZEN) Let's face it, no one knows all the answers - but the best Engineers/Consultants know how to find all the answers. This study list is one resource, but the greatest resource is within - your own desire and determination. -Eddie At 05:47 AM 1/13/01 +, Elijah Landreth wrote: >Hey All- > >I neither meant to piss anyone off, nor to break a NDA. We all know that the >CCIE is the top dog of tests. All of us have studied hard to get here, and >everyone in this room is looking for a little help in studying for this. >When I got home from the test today, I tried to remember all of the areas >that were of question to me. None of the questions I posted were verbatim... >they couldn't be, since we all know there is NO way to bring a copy of the >test out with you! But knowing that most, if not all, of the people who >frequent this room are studying to achieve the same result, I was looking >for some peer help. > >I am a little unsure what happened to cause as harsh a response as I have >received from what I posted. If I have tread in an area that I am unaware >of, I will remove myself from further discussion. I am not in the habit of >posting here, but rather simply of reading all of your helpful information. >I would be grateful if someone could CALMLY explain where I went wrong in my >wording. Many times in the past I have seen others post lists of questions >that they too have had regarding this test, as well as other tests in other >study groups. This appeared to be the proper place to post my questions and >receive help in understanding things I may have needed help with > >As for "reporting" me to Cisco, or a moderator, or whomever- I feel that I >need to understand my violation before I am sentenced. I will contact >someone myself if necessary, and have my post removed from future viewing, >if that is appropriate. However, I am still unclear as to WHY my post caused >the distress it appears to have been responsible for. > >My sincere apologies... > >_ >Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > >_ >FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: >http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html >Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CCIE Written Test - retraction
i totally agree with andy. i am taking the test on the 17th and i find the list of questions very helpful and it exposed some of my weaknesses which i would try to cover up before the exam , thanks to andy. i have subscribed this mailing list solely for the purpose of assistance in the prepration of ccie exam. and i have to scroll through more than a 100 messages daily to find interesting messages. and remove all the other unwanted messages. this is exactly the kind of message that i (and all those preparing the exam ) would wish for. - Original Message - From: "Elijah Landreth" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2001 5:47 AM Subject: CCIE Written Test - retraction > Hey All- > > I neither meant to piss anyone off, nor to break a NDA. We all know that the > CCIE is the top dog of tests. All of us have studied hard to get here, and > everyone in this room is looking for a little help in studying for this. > When I got home from the test today, I tried to remember all of the areas > that were of question to me. None of the questions I posted were verbatim... > they couldn't be, since we all know there is NO way to bring a copy of the > test out with you! But knowing that most, if not all, of the people who > frequent this room are studying to achieve the same result, I was looking > for some peer help. > > I am a little unsure what happened to cause as harsh a response as I have > received from what I posted. If I have tread in an area that I am unaware > of, I will remove myself from further discussion. I am not in the habit of > posting here, but rather simply of reading all of your helpful information. > I would be grateful if someone could CALMLY explain where I went wrong in my > wording. Many times in the past I have seen others post lists of questions > that they too have had regarding this test, as well as other tests in other > study groups. This appeared to be the proper place to post my questions and > receive help in understanding things I may have needed help with > > As for "reporting" me to Cisco, or a moderator, or whomever- I feel that I > need to understand my violation before I am sentenced. I will contact > someone myself if necessary, and have my post removed from future viewing, > if that is appropriate. However, I am still unclear as to WHY my post caused > the distress it appears to have been responsible for. > > My sincere apologies... > > _ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > _ > FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html > Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
