Re: network design [7:64422]
i guess that the best way to get around how many hosts can be put in a giving broadcast domain will depend very much on the traffic patterns and the load the users put on the network add to that the diffrent applications behaviors as well as the windows behavior, so i think there is no right answer here, it all depends on the environment. as a rule cisco recomands, no more thatn 500 IIP users per broadcast domain, but then again the above must be drilled, if there is other desktop protocols that rely heavely on broadcasting, it is another story. the big question is not how much of these host i could get away with putting in one domain, but how scalable will the environment be in regards to the companys direction, simply u don't wana redo the hall thing when ur client wants to deploy a new technologie, or more application or what have u, more or less adaptability and scalability and relibility in face of the coming environment should be weighted out agianst how many host a person could get away with puting in a braodcast domain. Regards, Amar. ""Symon Thurlow"" a icrit dans le message de news: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Hey Chuck, > > How did that big design go, the one you mentioned on the list a few > months ago? > > Symon > > -Original Message- > From: The Long and Winding Road > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: 07 March 2003 20:05 > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: network design [7:64422] > > > ""Scott Roberts"" wrote in message > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > I guess I'm the only one with the problem of that many then. I'll take > your > > words for it that it works OK, but I still keep thinking back to that > > one study (don't recall its name), and can't help but think effiecency > > > would > go > > by some noticeable degree. anybody can through switch and hubs > > around, we're supposed to do it right, not just "to get by". > > > > I mean if 700 is ok, then why not 1000? at some point you have to > > agree there is going to be a performance hit. hasn't any manufacturor > > thought to retest this performance issue with the newer equipment? > > > to bring a bit of real world into this, I am working with a couple of > large organizations, for projects that involve good sized campus > switched networks. Several of my coworkers are involved in similar > projects. We are finding places where there may well be a couple > thousand ddevices in a single broadcast domain. The IT folks in these > orgs do know that sometimes there are problems. However, most also say > that in general, they don't have a great deal of problems. > > an apocryhal story, but a couple of years back I interviewed with a > large bank in this area. They were looking for detailed sniffer > experience ( which I did not have ) because, they said, they had as many > as 1000 stations on a segment, and whenever there were network > performance issues, they sniffed like crazy, swapped out any nic that > they considered "over the edge" and in general did everything they could > to limit things that might adversely effect the ability of their users > to do what they had to do, much of which was to get wire ( money ) > transfers completed quickly and accurately. > > I worked in brokerage a few years. In that business, broadcast IS the > business. About 200 stations in a shared hub domain was too much. Moving > folks to 24 stations on a hub, with the hubs connected to switch ports, > was quite effective. in terms of reduction of performance complaints. I > would never do it this way these days. > > As for the manufacturers, all they care about is selling equipment, so > of course they are going to promote thresholds which support the selling > of more equipment. > > > > > > scott > > > > ""Priscilla Oppenheimer"" wrote in message > > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Great answer Chuck. It sounds like you figured out his/her basic > > > needs, though we would need more detail to provide a detailed > > > design, of > course, > > > and payment for design services. :-) Well, actually your idea of > > > asking > a > > > vendor to do an RFP might mean a free design (that would be biased > toward > > > the vendor, of course, but still a good start.) > > > > > > I'm not in disagreement that today 700 nodes in one broadcast domain > might > > > be OK. In other words, I would probably recommend no VLANs as a > > > start. > > VLANs > > > complicate matters. If the network admins are somewhat new to > networking, > > > they should avoid VLANs to
RE: network design [7:64422]
Hey Chuck, How did that big design go, the one you mentioned on the list a few months ago? Symon -Original Message- From: The Long and Winding Road [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 07 March 2003 20:05 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: network design [7:64422] ""Scott Roberts"" wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > I guess I'm the only one with the problem of that many then. I'll take your > words for it that it works OK, but I still keep thinking back to that > one study (don't recall its name), and can't help but think effiecency > would go > by some noticeable degree. anybody can through switch and hubs > around, we're supposed to do it right, not just "to get by". > > I mean if 700 is ok, then why not 1000? at some point you have to > agree there is going to be a performance hit. hasn't any manufacturor > thought to retest this performance issue with the newer equipment? to bring a bit of real world into this, I am working with a couple of large organizations, for projects that involve good sized campus switched networks. Several of my coworkers are involved in similar projects. We are finding places where there may well be a couple thousand ddevices in a single broadcast domain. The IT folks in these orgs do know that sometimes there are problems. However, most also say that in general, they don't have a great deal of problems. an apocryhal story, but a couple of years back I interviewed with a large bank in this area. They were looking for detailed sniffer experience ( which I did not have ) because, they said, they had as many as 1000 stations on a segment, and whenever there were network performance issues, they sniffed like crazy, swapped out any nic that they considered "over the edge" and in general did everything they could to limit things that might adversely effect the ability of their users to do what they had to do, much of which was to get wire ( money ) transfers completed quickly and accurately. I worked in brokerage a few years. In that business, broadcast IS the business. About 200 stations in a shared hub domain was too much. Moving folks to 24 stations on a hub, with the hubs connected to switch ports, was quite effective. in terms of reduction of performance complaints. I would never do it this way these days. As for the manufacturers, all they care about is selling equipment, so of course they are going to promote thresholds which support the selling of more equipment. > > scott > > ""Priscilla Oppenheimer"" wrote in message > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Great answer Chuck. It sounds like you figured out his/her basic > > needs, though we would need more detail to provide a detailed > > design, of course, > > and payment for design services. :-) Well, actually your idea of > > asking a > > vendor to do an RFP might mean a free design (that would be biased toward > > the vendor, of course, but still a good start.) > > > > I'm not in disagreement that today 700 nodes in one broadcast domain might > > be OK. In other words, I would probably recommend no VLANs as a > > start. > VLANs > > complicate matters. If the network admins are somewhat new to networking, > > they should avoid VLANs to start. > > > > The reason 700 nodes in one broadcast domain could work is because > > NICs > and > > CPUs are really not bothered by broadcasts like they were in the > mid-1990s. > > They are much fast, have better buffers, etc. Some would argue they never > > were affected as much as Cisco claimed! > > > > I help out once in a while on a city-wide school network with that > > many nodes in one broadcast domain. It has all the risk factors: > > > > Lots of AppleTalk traffic > > Lots of Novell traffic > > Lots of NetBIOS traffic > > Lots of IP traffic > > Ancient PCs with slow CPUs > > > > There are no performance issues. > > > > Priscilla > > > > The Long and Winding Road wrote: > > > > > > ""ferry ferry"" wrote in message > > > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > I need a scheme of network.It need seven hundreds > > > points.please give me > > > some > > > > advice on how to design it.It include that how to select > > > network > > > > product,product configuration.They are seted in a building.It > > > have twenty > > > > layers. > > > > > > > > > Let's see if I understand you correctly. > > > > > > A company is located in a multistory building. There are 700 users > > > spread out among 20 floors. So on average there are 3
Re: network design [7:64422]
personally, i've had very good luck with vendor designs. in particular if you have some inkling about what your requirements are and the rudiments of a solution set in mind. if you know enough about a solution to intelligently pose questions and negotiate features/costs tradeoffs then you can get a really decent design that is up to date with what your favorite vendor currently offers and it cost you 2 vendor meetings at 1.5 hours each, plus prep time. really a deal. but you do need to know the requirements. so in this case the questions posed earlier by chuck would need to be answered so the vendor can work their magic. off to germany for a week - will return with more "opportunities to excel", no doubt. garrett - Original Message - From: Scott Roberts Date: Friday, March 7, 2003 2:42 pm Subject: Re: network design [7:64422] > I guess I'm the only one with the problem of that many then. I'll > take your > words for it that it works OK, but I still keep thinking back to > that one > study (don't recall its name), and can't help but think effiecency > would go > by some noticeable degree. anybody can through switch and hubs > around,we're supposed to do it right, not just "to get by". > > I mean if 700 is ok, then why not 1000? at some point you have to > agreethere is going to be a performance hit. hasn't any > manufacturor thought to > retest this performance issue with the newer equipment? > > scott > > ""Priscilla Oppenheimer"" wrote in message > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Great answer Chuck. It sounds like you figured out his/her basic > needs,> though we would need more detail to provide a detailed > design, of course, > > and payment for design services. :-) Well, actually your idea of > asking a > > vendor to do an RFP might mean a free design (that would be > biased toward > > the vendor, of course, but still a good start.) > > > > I'm not in disagreement that today 700 nodes in one broadcast > domain might > > be OK. In other words, I would probably recommend no VLANs as a > start.VLANs > > complicate matters. If the network admins are somewhat new to > networking,> they should avoid VLANs to start. > > > > The reason 700 nodes in one broadcast domain could work is > because NICs > and > > CPUs are really not bothered by broadcasts like they were in the > mid-1990s. > > They are much fast, have better buffers, etc. Some would argue > they never > > were affected as much as Cisco claimed! > > > > I help out once in a while on a city-wide school network with > that many > > nodes in one broadcast domain. It has all the risk factors: > > > > Lots of AppleTalk traffic > > Lots of Novell traffic > > Lots of NetBIOS traffic > > Lots of IP traffic > > Ancient PCs with slow CPUs > > > > There are no performance issues. > > > > Priscilla > > > > The Long and Winding Road wrote: > > > > > > ""ferry ferry"" wrote in message > > > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > I need a scheme of network.It need seven hundreds > > > points.please give me > > > some > > > > advice on how to design it.It include that how to select > > > network > > > > product,product configuration.They are seted in a building.It > > > have twenty > > > > layers. > > > > > > > > > Let's see if I understand you correctly. > > > > > > A company is located in a multistory building. There are 700 > > > users spread > > > out among 20 floors. So on average there are 35 users per floor. > > > > > > I'm going to assume a single data center with your servers and > > > internet > > > connection. > > > > > > Got fiber running from your data center to the various floors? > > > How is this > > > structured? how far from the dataccenter to each of the floors? > > > > > > the answer to this will help determine if you use a collapsed > > > backbone or if > > > you connect your switches in series. > > > > > > do you have groups of users who should logically be separated > > > from > > > eachother. Some companies like their payroll department to be > > > on a separate > > > network from other departments, for example. are there some > > > services that > > > need to be separated and unavailable to some users? > > > > > > These days, 700 uses, particularly in a switched environ
Re: network design [7:64422]
""Scott Roberts"" wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > I guess I'm the only one with the problem of that many then. I'll take your > words for it that it works OK, but I still keep thinking back to that one > study (don't recall its name), and can't help but think effiecency would go > by some noticeable degree. anybody can through switch and hubs around, > we're supposed to do it right, not just "to get by". > > I mean if 700 is ok, then why not 1000? at some point you have to agree > there is going to be a performance hit. hasn't any manufacturor thought to > retest this performance issue with the newer equipment? to bring a bit of real world into this, I am working with a couple of large organizations, for projects that involve good sized campus switched networks. Several of my coworkers are involved in similar projects. We are finding places where there may well be a couple thousand ddevices in a single broadcast domain. The IT folks in these orgs do know that sometimes there are problems. However, most also say that in general, they don't have a great deal of problems. an apocryhal story, but a couple of years back I interviewed with a large bank in this area. They were looking for detailed sniffer experience ( which I did not have ) because, they said, they had as many as 1000 stations on a segment, and whenever there were network performance issues, they sniffed like crazy, swapped out any nic that they considered "over the edge" and in general did everything they could to limit things that might adversely effect the ability of their users to do what they had to do, much of which was to get wire ( money ) transfers completed quickly and accurately. I worked in brokerage a few years. In that business, broadcast IS the business. About 200 stations in a shared hub domain was too much. Moving folks to 24 stations on a hub, with the hubs connected to switch ports, was quite effective. in terms of reduction of performance complaints. I would never do it this way these days. As for the manufacturers, all they care about is selling equipment, so of course they are going to promote thresholds which support the selling of more equipment. > > scott > > ""Priscilla Oppenheimer"" wrote in message > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Great answer Chuck. It sounds like you figured out his/her basic needs, > > though we would need more detail to provide a detailed design, of course, > > and payment for design services. :-) Well, actually your idea of asking a > > vendor to do an RFP might mean a free design (that would be biased toward > > the vendor, of course, but still a good start.) > > > > I'm not in disagreement that today 700 nodes in one broadcast domain might > > be OK. In other words, I would probably recommend no VLANs as a start. > VLANs > > complicate matters. If the network admins are somewhat new to networking, > > they should avoid VLANs to start. > > > > The reason 700 nodes in one broadcast domain could work is because NICs > and > > CPUs are really not bothered by broadcasts like they were in the > mid-1990s. > > They are much fast, have better buffers, etc. Some would argue they never > > were affected as much as Cisco claimed! > > > > I help out once in a while on a city-wide school network with that many > > nodes in one broadcast domain. It has all the risk factors: > > > > Lots of AppleTalk traffic > > Lots of Novell traffic > > Lots of NetBIOS traffic > > Lots of IP traffic > > Ancient PCs with slow CPUs > > > > There are no performance issues. > > > > Priscilla > > > > The Long and Winding Road wrote: > > > > > > ""ferry ferry"" wrote in message > > > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > I need a scheme of network.It need seven hundreds > > > points.please give me > > > some > > > > advice on how to design it.It include that how to select > > > network > > > > product,product configuration.They are seted in a building.It > > > have twenty > > > > layers. > > > > > > > > > Let's see if I understand you correctly. > > > > > > A company is located in a multistory building. There are 700 > > > users spread > > > out among 20 floors. So on average there are 35 users per floor. > > > > > > I'm going to assume a single data center with your servers and > > > internet > > > connection. > > > > > > Got fiber running from your data center to the various floors? > > > How is this > > > structured? how far from the dataccenter to each of the floors? > > > > > > the answer to this will help determine if you use a collapsed > > > backbone or if > > > you connect your switches in series. > > > > > > do you have groups of users who should logically be separated > > > from > > > eachother. Some companies like their payroll department to be > > > on a separate > > > network from other departments, for example. are there some > > > services that > > > need to be separated and unavailable to some users? > > > > > > These days, 700 uses, particularly in a switched environment, > > > is not such a > > > large
Re: network design [7:64422]
I guess I'm the only one with the problem of that many then. I'll take your words for it that it works OK, but I still keep thinking back to that one study (don't recall its name), and can't help but think effiecency would go by some noticeable degree. anybody can through switch and hubs around, we're supposed to do it right, not just "to get by". I mean if 700 is ok, then why not 1000? at some point you have to agree there is going to be a performance hit. hasn't any manufacturor thought to retest this performance issue with the newer equipment? scott ""Priscilla Oppenheimer"" wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Great answer Chuck. It sounds like you figured out his/her basic needs, > though we would need more detail to provide a detailed design, of course, > and payment for design services. :-) Well, actually your idea of asking a > vendor to do an RFP might mean a free design (that would be biased toward > the vendor, of course, but still a good start.) > > I'm not in disagreement that today 700 nodes in one broadcast domain might > be OK. In other words, I would probably recommend no VLANs as a start. VLANs > complicate matters. If the network admins are somewhat new to networking, > they should avoid VLANs to start. > > The reason 700 nodes in one broadcast domain could work is because NICs and > CPUs are really not bothered by broadcasts like they were in the mid-1990s. > They are much fast, have better buffers, etc. Some would argue they never > were affected as much as Cisco claimed! > > I help out once in a while on a city-wide school network with that many > nodes in one broadcast domain. It has all the risk factors: > > Lots of AppleTalk traffic > Lots of Novell traffic > Lots of NetBIOS traffic > Lots of IP traffic > Ancient PCs with slow CPUs > > There are no performance issues. > > Priscilla > > The Long and Winding Road wrote: > > > > ""ferry ferry"" wrote in message > > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > I need a scheme of network.It need seven hundreds > > points.please give me > > some > > > advice on how to design it.It include that how to select > > network > > > product,product configuration.They are seted in a building.It > > have twenty > > > layers. > > > > > > Let's see if I understand you correctly. > > > > A company is located in a multistory building. There are 700 > > users spread > > out among 20 floors. So on average there are 35 users per floor. > > > > I'm going to assume a single data center with your servers and > > internet > > connection. > > > > Got fiber running from your data center to the various floors? > > How is this > > structured? how far from the dataccenter to each of the floors? > > > > the answer to this will help determine if you use a collapsed > > backbone or if > > you connect your switches in series. > > > > do you have groups of users who should logically be separated > > from > > eachother. Some companies like their payroll department to be > > on a separate > > network from other departments, for example. are there some > > services that > > need to be separated and unavailable to some users? > > > > These days, 700 uses, particularly in a switched environment, > > is not such a > > large braodcast domain ( stop grinding your teeth, Priscilla > > ;-> ) but > > still, you might just want to separated out logical groups into > > vlans. or > > maybe do it by grouping a couple of florrs together into vlans. > > > > my knee jerk thought, not knowing too much about the > > particulars, is > > determine your port counts per floor, determine connectivity - > > fiber runs > > between closets, and where those runs terminate. if it's > > copper, you got > > troubles :-> > > > > determine your logical / vlan structures. who needs to see what > > and when. > > > > Then go through the provisioning process. > > > > Don't be afraid to call in a couple of vendors to help you. ask > > for > > proposals. If you have a vendor who works closely with you and > > wants to help > > educate you, that's your guy ( or gal, for the politically > > correct ) > > > > hope this helps you get started. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=64756&t=64422 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: network design [7:64422]
Great answer Chuck. It sounds like you figured out his/her basic needs, though we would need more detail to provide a detailed design, of course, and payment for design services. :-) Well, actually your idea of asking a vendor to do an RFP might mean a free design (that would be biased toward the vendor, of course, but still a good start.) I'm not in disagreement that today 700 nodes in one broadcast domain might be OK. In other words, I would probably recommend no VLANs as a start. VLANs complicate matters. If the network admins are somewhat new to networking, they should avoid VLANs to start. The reason 700 nodes in one broadcast domain could work is because NICs and CPUs are really not bothered by broadcasts like they were in the mid-1990s. They are much fast, have better buffers, etc. Some would argue they never were affected as much as Cisco claimed! I help out once in a while on a city-wide school network with that many nodes in one broadcast domain. It has all the risk factors: Lots of AppleTalk traffic Lots of Novell traffic Lots of NetBIOS traffic Lots of IP traffic Ancient PCs with slow CPUs There are no performance issues. Priscilla The Long and Winding Road wrote: > > ""ferry ferry"" wrote in message > news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > I need a scheme of network.It need seven hundreds > points.please give me > some > > advice on how to design it.It include that how to select > network > > product,product configuration.They are seted in a building.It > have twenty > > layers. > > > Let's see if I understand you correctly. > > A company is located in a multistory building. There are 700 > users spread > out among 20 floors. So on average there are 35 users per floor. > > I'm going to assume a single data center with your servers and > internet > connection. > > Got fiber running from your data center to the various floors? > How is this > structured? how far from the dataccenter to each of the floors? > > the answer to this will help determine if you use a collapsed > backbone or if > you connect your switches in series. > > do you have groups of users who should logically be separated > from > eachother. Some companies like their payroll department to be > on a separate > network from other departments, for example. are there some > services that > need to be separated and unavailable to some users? > > These days, 700 uses, particularly in a switched environment, > is not such a > large braodcast domain ( stop grinding your teeth, Priscilla > ;-> ) but > still, you might just want to separated out logical groups into > vlans. or > maybe do it by grouping a couple of florrs together into vlans. > > my knee jerk thought, not knowing too much about the > particulars, is > determine your port counts per floor, determine connectivity - > fiber runs > between closets, and where those runs terminate. if it's > copper, you got > troubles :-> > > determine your logical / vlan structures. who needs to see what > and when. > > Then go through the provisioning process. > > Don't be afraid to call in a couple of vendors to help you. ask > for > proposals. If you have a vendor who works closely with you and > wants to help > educate you, that's your guy ( or gal, for the politically > correct ) > > hope this helps you get started. > > Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=64432&t=64422 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: network design [7:64422]
All, Be kind... GM -Original Message- From: ferry ferry [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 9:02 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: network design [7:64422] I need a scheme of network.It need seven hundreds points.please give me some advice on how to design it.It include that how to select network product,product configuration.They are seted in a building.It have twenty layers. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=64430&t=64422 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: network design [7:64422]
""ferry ferry"" wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > I need a scheme of network.It need seven hundreds points.please give me some > advice on how to design it.It include that how to select network > product,product configuration.They are seted in a building.It have twenty > layers. Let's see if I understand you correctly. A company is located in a multistory building. There are 700 users spread out among 20 floors. So on average there are 35 users per floor. I'm going to assume a single data center with your servers and internet connection. Got fiber running from your data center to the various floors? How is this structured? how far from the dataccenter to each of the floors? the answer to this will help determine if you use a collapsed backbone or if you connect your switches in series. do you have groups of users who should logically be separated from eachother. Some companies like their payroll department to be on a separate network from other departments, for example. are there some services that need to be separated and unavailable to some users? These days, 700 uses, particularly in a switched environment, is not such a large braodcast domain ( stop grinding your teeth, Priscilla ;-> ) but still, you might just want to separated out logical groups into vlans. or maybe do it by grouping a couple of florrs together into vlans. my knee jerk thought, not knowing too much about the particulars, is determine your port counts per floor, determine connectivity - fiber runs between closets, and where those runs terminate. if it's copper, you got troubles :-> determine your logical / vlan structures. who needs to see what and when. Then go through the provisioning process. Don't be afraid to call in a couple of vendors to help you. ask for proposals. If you have a vendor who works closely with you and wants to help educate you, that's your guy ( or gal, for the politically correct ) hope this helps you get started. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=64429&t=64422 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
network design [7:64422]
I need a scheme of network.It need seven hundreds points.please give me some advice on how to design it.It include that how to select network product,product configuration.They are seted in a building.It have twenty layers. Message Posted at: http://www.groupstudy.com/form/read.php?f=7&i=64422&t=64422 -- FAQ, list archives, and subscription info: http://www.groupstudy.com/list/cisco.html Report misconduct and Nondisclosure violations to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
