Re: WebApp authentication and authorization - up-to-date information?

[Sean Corfield]

Yes, there is definitely a learning curve with Clojure and its ecosystem
that makes it hard to just "dip in" every few years. It is not optimized
for beginners and I don't think it ever will be (although the beginner
experience is much better now than it used to be). It is not designed for
"off-the-shelf" solutions (Django, Rails, etc). There are already plenty of
technical solutions for those situations. That may be frustrating but
that's the reality. Clojure isn't going to be mainstream and it's not going
to take over the world. There are dozens of languages on the JVM and dozens
of other languages. Some are already mainstream and will remain so. The
rest will always remain niche. Again, as frustrating as that might be
that's just reality.

A lot of people who come to Clojure do so precisely because it eschews the
"batteries included" framework-heavy approach of some other technologies.

There are a lot of outdated tutorials, it's true. And a lot of libraries
that were created years ago and then abandoned. Those were created by early
adopters who were excited by Clojure but then moved on to another tech (or
back to their previous tech). That's certainly very frustrating. It's
pretty much impossible to modify those tutorials/libraries now to help
folks who come across them, new to Clojure, and of course, we can't take
them down either. Where we run across editable content, we can either make
it better or add caveats on it being outdated, but that's a small segment
of all that bad information.


On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 5:12 PM z9znz  wrote:

> This may sound like a rant, but it's not meant to be.  This is just my
> recurring frustration whenever I am led by my strong desire to use Clojure,
> but my typical use case is a basic business web app with authentication.
> Such use case may not at all be the best use of Clojure, but it should be
> perfectly reasonable as Clojure is a powerful general purpose language.
>
> It was not my intent to suggest that Clojure lacked a good solution to any
> particular need (authentication, data persistence, or anything else).  What
> is missing is a complete starter kit with _current_ instructions.
>
> Every year or two I go looking for something like this, or at least a
> guide or tutorial.  And every time, I encounter at least one of the
> following:
>  - A key element of the guide is outdated or depends on a library which is
> outdated (and where in some cases there is a reference made that everyone
> should switch to library Y, but then they're on their own to figure out how
> to use Y in this context)
>  - One or more element of the simple app is not illustrated in complete
> detail, but the author points the reader to a tutorial for that element
> elsewhere... except that some of the guides use boot while some use lein
> while some use deps (which itself isn't necessarily a huge deal, but forces
> the beginner to start diving into build/dependency management tools rather
> than getting a first app built)
>  - The guide doesn't cover a complete app
>
> For whatever reason, searches for Clojure-related topics tend to
> (largely/only) turn up results that are 5+ years old.  That's an eternity
> in internet time.  Yes there are some great current libraries that probably
> do everything one might need, but still there are roadblocks which
> beginners will encounter where the answers are nonexistent or outdated.
>
> With respect to database interaction, I know of but haven't used Korma
> (which now appears to be dead?), HugSQL, and others.  Of course there's
> straight JDBC Java use (whereby I should just write my own thin JDBC
> wrappers like I did back in the Java Server Pages days...?).  <- If that's
> the answer, then I have no problem doing it; but I would suspect there's
> some other pattern that leverages some of the strengths of Clojure a bit
> more.  This one current example is basically useless:
> https://devcenter.heroku.com/articles/clojure-web-application .   It
> illustrates enough to show that Clojure can route and respond to http
> requests, and it can touch a database; but surely it is not an example of
> how people actually write Clojure web apps.
>
> In contrast, there are numerous Django and Rails guides which illustrate
> the complete process of building a web app with their language+framework.
> They even tend to include some amount of tests and even
> internationalization (as well as authentication, database interaction, and
> sometimes API/json cases).
>
> Most of us don't get hired into Clojure companies, so any learning and
> doing is more of an evening/solo activity.  Probably many of us who have
> been exposed to Clojure really would love to use it in our day jobs.  But
> often the best way to get a new language or approach accepted is to build
> something useful and relevant to show the company.  That's how Java got
> into C++ shops and how Ruby got into Java shops.
>
> Clojure will remain vital to some big companies regardless of whether the
> 

Re: WebApp authentication and authorization - up-to-date information?

[Rostislav Svoboda]

> Every year or two I go looking for something like this, or at least a
guide or tutorial.  And every time, I encounter at least one of the
following:
>  - A key element of the guide is outdated or depends on a library which
is outdated (and where in some cases there is a reference made that
everyone should switch to library Y, but then they're on their own to
figure out how to use Y in this context)

agree

>  - One or more element of the simple app is not illustrated in complete
detail, but the author points the reader to a tutorial for that element
elsewhere... except that some of the guides use boot while some use lein
while some use deps (which itself isn't necessarily a huge deal, but forces
the beginner to start diving into build/dependency management tools rather
than getting a first app built)

agree

>  - The guide doesn't cover a complete app

agree

> For whatever reason, searches for Clojure-related topics tend to
(largely/only) turn up results that are 5+ years old.  That's an eternity
in internet time.  Yes there are some great current libraries that probably
do everything one might need, but still there are roadblocks which
beginners will encounter where the answers are nonexistent or outdated.

agree

> With respect to database interaction, I know of but haven't used Korma
(which now appears to be dead?), HugSQL, and others.  Of course there's
straight JDBC Java use (whereby I should just write my own thin JDBC
wrappers like I did back in the Java Server Pages days...?).  <- If that's
the answer, then I have no problem doing it; but I would suspect there's
some other pattern that leverages some of the strengths of Clojure a bit
more.  This one current example is basically useless:
https://devcenter.heroku.com/articles/clojure-web-application .   It
illustrates enough to show that Clojure can route and respond to http
requests, and it can touch a database; but surely it is not an example of
how people actually write Clojure web apps.

agree

> In contrast, there are numerous Django and Rails guides which illustrate
the complete process of building a web app with their language+framework.
They even tend to include some amount of tests and even
internationalization (as well as authentication, database interaction, and
sometimes API/json cases).
>
> Most of us don't get hired into Clojure companies, so any learning and
doing is more of an evening/solo activity.

agree. BTW it's 1 a.m. over here

It's 99% ... no, it's really like somebody's reading my mind and describing
the my situation. Uff.

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Re: How to include ClojureScript into HTML page?

[nenad mitrovic]

Or even better, when I create simple HTML file without extending any 
base.html file, how to add clojurescript namespace, how to reference it? 
You know, like javascript helloworld example




How to do this in ClojureScript?

On Sunday, March 22, 2020 at 1:20:06 AM UTC+1, nenad mitrovic wrote:
>
> I am following guestbook example from the book Web Development With 
> Clojure 3rd edition. I am struggling with including ClojureScript namespace 
> into HTML document. Everything is working fine with example where I have 
> one core.cljs. With that file, only I have to do is to include this piece 
> of code into home.html document:
>
> {% extends "base.html" %}
> {% block content %}
> 
> 
> {% endblock %}
> {% block page-scripts %}
> {% script "/js/app.js" %}
> {% endblock %}
>
> As I mentioned, everything is ok in this situation. But when I created 
> additional ClojureScript file and name it test.cljs and included that in 
> the same way in the new HTML document named test.html I see errors in the 
> console such as "Target container is not a DOM element.". I think that 
> something is wrong with this part:
>
> {% block page-scripts %}
> {% script "/js/app.js" %}
> {% endblock %}
>
> But I can't figure out how to solve this. Actually, my question maybe 
> should be: How to include ClojureScript into HTML file?. Is the only way 
> this piece of code?
>
> {% block page-scripts %}
> {% script "/js/app.js" %}
> {% endblock %}
>
> Or, maybe I should change {% script "/js/app.js" %} part of this snippet?
>

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How to include ClojureScript into HTML page?

[nenad mitrovic]

I am following guestbook example from the book Web Development With Clojure 
3rd edition. I am struggling with including ClojureScript namespace into 
HTML document. Everything is working fine with example where I have one 
core.cljs. With that file, only I have to do is to include this piece of 
code into home.html document:

{% extends "base.html" %}
{% block content %}


{% endblock %}
{% block page-scripts %}
{% script "/js/app.js" %}
{% endblock %}

As I mentioned, everything is ok in this situation. But when I created 
additional ClojureScript file and name it test.cljs and included that in 
the same way in the new HTML document named test.html I see errors in the 
console such as "Target container is not a DOM element.". I think that 
something is wrong with this part:

{% block page-scripts %}
{% script "/js/app.js" %}
{% endblock %}

But I can't figure out how to solve this. Actually, my question maybe 
should be: How to include ClojureScript into HTML file?. Is the only way 
this piece of code?

{% block page-scripts %}
{% script "/js/app.js" %}
{% endblock %}

Or, maybe I should change {% script "/js/app.js" %} part of this snippet?

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Re: WebApp authentication and authorization - up-to-date information?

[z9znz]

This may sound like a rant, but it's not meant to be.  This is just my 
recurring frustration whenever I am led by my strong desire to use Clojure, 
but my typical use case is a basic business web app with authentication.  
Such use case may not at all be the best use of Clojure, but it should be 
perfectly reasonable as Clojure is a powerful general purpose language.

It was not my intent to suggest that Clojure lacked a good solution to any 
particular need (authentication, data persistence, or anything else).  What 
is missing is a complete starter kit with _current_ instructions.

Every year or two I go looking for something like this, or at least a guide 
or tutorial.  And every time, I encounter at least one of the following:
 - A key element of the guide is outdated or depends on a library which is 
outdated (and where in some cases there is a reference made that everyone 
should switch to library Y, but then they're on their own to figure out how 
to use Y in this context)
 - One or more element of the simple app is not illustrated in complete 
detail, but the author points the reader to a tutorial for that element 
elsewhere... except that some of the guides use boot while some use lein 
while some use deps (which itself isn't necessarily a huge deal, but forces 
the beginner to start diving into build/dependency management tools rather 
than getting a first app built)
 - The guide doesn't cover a complete app

For whatever reason, searches for Clojure-related topics tend to 
(largely/only) turn up results that are 5+ years old.  That's an eternity 
in internet time.  Yes there are some great current libraries that probably 
do everything one might need, but still there are roadblocks which 
beginners will encounter where the answers are nonexistent or outdated.  

With respect to database interaction, I know of but haven't used Korma 
(which now appears to be dead?), HugSQL, and others.  Of course there's 
straight JDBC Java use (whereby I should just write my own thin JDBC 
wrappers like I did back in the Java Server Pages days...?).  <- If that's 
the answer, then I have no problem doing it; but I would suspect there's 
some other pattern that leverages some of the strengths of Clojure a bit 
more.  This one current example is basically useless: 
https://devcenter.heroku.com/articles/clojure-web-application .   It 
illustrates enough to show that Clojure can route and respond to http 
requests, and it can touch a database; but surely it is not an example of 
how people actually write Clojure web apps.

In contrast, there are numerous Django and Rails guides which illustrate 
the complete process of building a web app with their language+framework.  
They even tend to include some amount of tests and even 
internationalization (as well as authentication, database interaction, and 
sometimes API/json cases).

Most of us don't get hired into Clojure companies, so any learning and 
doing is more of an evening/solo activity.  Probably many of us who have 
been exposed to Clojure really would love to use it in our day jobs.  But 
often the best way to get a new language or approach accepted is to build 
something useful and relevant to show the company.  That's how Java got 
into C++ shops and how Ruby got into Java shops.

Clojure will remain vital to some big companies regardless of whether the 
cost of entry is reduced; but sadly, the comparative abomination called 
JavaScript will continue to grow - eating the backend now too.  It could be 
Clojure/ClojureScript taking over the world.


On Saturday, March 21, 2020 at 10:51:47 PM UTC+1, Sean Corfield wrote:
>
> > some form of database interface (definitely need not be ORM; just a 
> demonstrated pattern)
>
> I'm curious as to what you feel is missing beyond clojure.java.jdbc / 
> next.jdbc? SQL is the lingua franca for relational databases and those 
> libraries provide the interface between Clojure data -- hash maps and 
> vectors of hash maps -- and rows/resultsets.
>
> On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 2:30 PM z9znz > 
> wrote:
>
>> This is what primarily keeps me from ever building a first (web) app with 
>> Clojure.  
>>
>> Even the Web Development with Clojure, 3rd edition that I bought (beta) 
>> still does not have the section on this topic filled in. 
>>
>> I'm convinced that part of what prevents Clojure from being adopted more 
>> is the lack of a killer framework.  When I ask about this, the usual answer 
>> is that Clojure people don't like to be constrained and are happier to 
>> choose their own tools and libraries.  This is great if you already know 
>> what you're doing, but it's a vertical wall for newbies.
>>
>> I admit I have not yet looked at Coast on Clojure - and perhaps it has 
>> the potential to be that entry point for newbies.  
>>
>> But apropos to your question, perhaps the Coast docs on authentication 
>> will help you.  They illustrate using Buddy.  Buddy has not been updated 
>> since Q3 2017 (a fact I find discouraging), 

Re: WebApp authentication and authorization - up-to-date information?

[Jérémie Grodziski]

Regarding the security part I find that delegating authentication and 
authorization to a specialized component is a good approach.
You can use Keycloak  for that matter and I 
published some times ago some details about its integration in the Clojure 
world : https://github.com/jgrodziski/keycloak-clojure/tree/master/sample

Jérémie.

Le samedi 21 mars 2020 22:51:47 UTC+1, Sean Corfield a écrit :
>
> > some form of database interface (definitely need not be ORM; just a 
> demonstrated pattern)
>
> I'm curious as to what you feel is missing beyond clojure.java.jdbc / 
> next.jdbc? SQL is the lingua franca for relational databases and those 
> libraries provide the interface between Clojure data -- hash maps and 
> vectors of hash maps -- and rows/resultsets.
>
> On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 2:30 PM z9znz > 
> wrote:
>
>> This is what primarily keeps me from ever building a first (web) app with 
>> Clojure.  
>>
>> Even the Web Development with Clojure, 3rd edition that I bought (beta) 
>> still does not have the section on this topic filled in. 
>>
>> I'm convinced that part of what prevents Clojure from being adopted more 
>> is the lack of a killer framework.  When I ask about this, the usual answer 
>> is that Clojure people don't like to be constrained and are happier to 
>> choose their own tools and libraries.  This is great if you already know 
>> what you're doing, but it's a vertical wall for newbies.
>>
>> I admit I have not yet looked at Coast on Clojure - and perhaps it has 
>> the potential to be that entry point for newbies.  
>>
>> But apropos to your question, perhaps the Coast docs on authentication 
>> will help you.  They illustrate using Buddy.  Buddy has not been updated 
>> since Q3 2017 (a fact I find discouraging), but perhaps it is still 
>> relevant.  
>> https://github.com/coast-framework/coast/blob/master/docs/authentication.md
>>
>> I keep dreaming of a Clojure-based starter system that includes 
>> authentication and some form of database interface (definitely need not be 
>> ORM; just a demonstrated pattern).  We could begin with that, and once we 
>> have a clue what's what, then we can go the usual Clojure route and hand 
>> select every library.
>>
>>
>> On Saturday, March 21, 2020 at 8:29:04 PM UTC+1, Bost wrote:
>>>
>>> I have difficulties finding up-to-date information, tutorials, articles, 
>>> blog posts etc. concerning WebApp authentication and authorization.
>>>
>>> The most "recent" useful articles I found are from 2015 and 2014:
>>> https://rundis.github.io/blog/2015/buddy_auth_part2.html
>>> https://blog.knoldus.com/google-sign-in-using-clojure/
>>>
>>> Uhm, my google-fu is getting weak... can anyone help please? Thanks
>>>
>>> Bost
>>>
>> -- 
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>> 
>> Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with 
>> your first post.
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>>  
>> 
>> .
>>
>
>
> -- 
> Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN
> An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/
> World Singles Networks, LLC. -- https://worldsinglesnetworks.com/
>
> "Perfection is the enemy of the good."
> -- Gustave Flaubert, French realist novelist (1821-1880)
>

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Re: WebApp authentication and authorization - up-to-date information?

[Sean Corfield]

> some form of database interface (definitely need not be ORM; just a
demonstrated pattern)

I'm curious as to what you feel is missing beyond clojure.java.jdbc /
next.jdbc? SQL is the lingua franca for relational databases and those
libraries provide the interface between Clojure data -- hash maps and
vectors of hash maps -- and rows/resultsets.

On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 2:30 PM z9znz  wrote:

> This is what primarily keeps me from ever building a first (web) app with
> Clojure.
>
> Even the Web Development with Clojure, 3rd edition that I bought (beta)
> still does not have the section on this topic filled in.
>
> I'm convinced that part of what prevents Clojure from being adopted more
> is the lack of a killer framework.  When I ask about this, the usual answer
> is that Clojure people don't like to be constrained and are happier to
> choose their own tools and libraries.  This is great if you already know
> what you're doing, but it's a vertical wall for newbies.
>
> I admit I have not yet looked at Coast on Clojure - and perhaps it has the
> potential to be that entry point for newbies.
>
> But apropos to your question, perhaps the Coast docs on authentication
> will help you.  They illustrate using Buddy.  Buddy has not been updated
> since Q3 2017 (a fact I find discouraging), but perhaps it is still
> relevant.
> https://github.com/coast-framework/coast/blob/master/docs/authentication.md
>
> I keep dreaming of a Clojure-based starter system that includes
> authentication and some form of database interface (definitely need not be
> ORM; just a demonstrated pattern).  We could begin with that, and once we
> have a clue what's what, then we can go the usual Clojure route and hand
> select every library.
>
>
> On Saturday, March 21, 2020 at 8:29:04 PM UTC+1, Bost wrote:
>>
>> I have difficulties finding up-to-date information, tutorials, articles,
>> blog posts etc. concerning WebApp authentication and authorization.
>>
>> The most "recent" useful articles I found are from 2015 and 2014:
>> https://rundis.github.io/blog/2015/buddy_auth_part2.html
>> https://blog.knoldus.com/google-sign-in-using-clojure/
>>
>> Uhm, my google-fu is getting weak... can anyone help please? Thanks
>>
>> Bost
>>
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> 
> .
>


-- 
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An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/
World Singles Networks, LLC. -- https://worldsinglesnetworks.com/

"Perfection is the enemy of the good."
-- Gustave Flaubert, French realist novelist (1821-1880)

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Re: WebApp authentication and authorization - up-to-date information?

[z9znz]

This is what primarily keeps me from ever building a first (web) app with 
Clojure.  

Even the Web Development with Clojure, 3rd edition that I bought (beta) 
still does not have the section on this topic filled in. 

I'm convinced that part of what prevents Clojure from being adopted more is 
the lack of a killer framework.  When I ask about this, the usual answer is 
that Clojure people don't like to be constrained and are happier to choose 
their own tools and libraries.  This is great if you already know what 
you're doing, but it's a vertical wall for newbies.

I admit I have not yet looked at Coast on Clojure - and perhaps it has the 
potential to be that entry point for newbies.  

But apropos to your question, perhaps the Coast docs on authentication will 
help you.  They illustrate using Buddy.  Buddy has not been updated since 
Q3 2017 (a fact I find discouraging), but perhaps it is still relevant.  
https://github.com/coast-framework/coast/blob/master/docs/authentication.md

I keep dreaming of a Clojure-based starter system that includes 
authentication and some form of database interface (definitely need not be 
ORM; just a demonstrated pattern).  We could begin with that, and once we 
have a clue what's what, then we can go the usual Clojure route and hand 
select every library.


On Saturday, March 21, 2020 at 8:29:04 PM UTC+1, Bost wrote:
>
> I have difficulties finding up-to-date information, tutorials, articles, 
> blog posts etc. concerning WebApp authentication and authorization.
>
> The most "recent" useful articles I found are from 2015 and 2014:
> https://rundis.github.io/blog/2015/buddy_auth_part2.html
> https://blog.knoldus.com/google-sign-in-using-clojure/
>
> Uhm, my google-fu is getting weak... can anyone help please? Thanks
>
> Bost
>

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Clojars moved to new infrastructure

[Toby Crawley]

As announced on March 15th[1], we are in the process of moving
Clojars.org to new infrastructure hosted on AWS. We've beta tested for
the past week (thanks to all that helped out!), and haven't had any
issues. So we just switched DNS to point to the new infrastructure.
You should start using it automatically as DNS propagates.

We will wait a few days to make sure everything is working properly,
then tear down the old infrastructure on Rackspace.

If you have any issues, please let us know by filing an issue at
https://github.com/clojars/clojars-web/issues or in #clojars on the
Clojurians slack.

- The Clojars Team

[1]: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/clojure/zlBaMkw5Wss/sgGVYQxCAQAJ

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WebApp authentication and authorization - up-to-date information?

[Rostislav Svoboda]

I have difficulties finding up-to-date information, tutorials, articles,
blog posts etc. concerning WebApp authentication and authorization.

The most "recent" useful articles I found are from 2015 and 2014:
https://rundis.github.io/blog/2015/buddy_auth_part2.html
https://blog.knoldus.com/google-sign-in-using-clojure/

Uhm, my google-fu is getting weak... can anyone help please? Thanks

Bost

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