Re: Clojure 1.3: Integrating clj-stacktrace?
Yes, this is very important problem with current implementation of Clojure. Many of beginners complain, that they couldn't understand where error happened, especially during compilation of code. Phil Hagelberg at Tue, 24 Aug 2010 21:55:52 -0700 wrote: PH One of the most common complaints about the current implementation of PH Clojure is that the stack traces are often unreadable. At work we have PH been using Mark McGranaghan's clj-stacktrace library[1] to print stack PH traces, and it does a great job of cleaning them up and making it much PH clearer as to what the actual cause of the problem is. I've found it PH invaluable for this--it provides indentation, better details, and even PH coloring to help make the relevant frames stand out in the noise. PH I've spoken to him about it, and he is agreeable to the idea of PH merging it into Clojure. He is the sole author of it, and it sounds PH like he'd be fine with relicensing and copyright assignment. PH It appears at first glance to be compatible with the existing PH clojure.stacktrace library. Obviously before it could be merged we PH would need to investigate this more thoroughly, but I think it could PH be a valuable improvement to Clojure 1.3. PH Thoughts? PH -Phil PH [1] - http://github.com/mmcgrana/clj-stacktrace -- With best wishes, Alex Ott, MBA http://alexott.blogspot.com/ http://alexott.net http://alexott-ru.blogspot.com/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Clojure 1.3: Integrating clj-stacktrace?
+1 Good idea. On Aug 25, 12:45 pm, Alex Ott alex...@gmail.com wrote: Yes, this is very important problem with current implementation of Clojure. Many of beginners complain, that they couldn't understand where error happened, especially during compilation of code. Phil Hagelberg at Tue, 24 Aug 2010 21:55:52 -0700 wrote: PH One of the most common complaints about the current implementation of PH Clojure is that the stack traces are often unreadable. At work we have PH been using Mark McGranaghan's clj-stacktrace library[1] to print stack PH traces, and it does a great job of cleaning them up and making it much PH clearer as to what the actual cause of the problem is. I've found it PH invaluable for this--it provides indentation, better details, and even PH coloring to help make the relevant frames stand out in the noise. PH I've spoken to him about it, and he is agreeable to the idea of PH merging it into Clojure. He is the sole author of it, and it sounds PH like he'd be fine with relicensing and copyright assignment. PH It appears at first glance to be compatible with the existing PH clojure.stacktrace library. Obviously before it could be merged we PH would need to investigate this more thoroughly, but I think it could PH be a valuable improvement to Clojure 1.3. PH Thoughts? PH -Phil PH [1] -http://github.com/mmcgrana/clj-stacktrace -- With best wishes, Alex Ott, MBAhttp://alexott.blogspot.com/ http://alexott.nethttp://alexott-ru.blogspot.com/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Clojure 1.3: Integrating clj-stacktrace?
On Aug 24, 2010, at 9:55 PM, Phil Hagelberg wrote: Thoughts? +1. The existing stack traces are pretty horrible. Phil's proposal, or something similar, would be a huge improvement. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Clojure 1.3: Integrating clj-stacktrace?
I am a newcomer to the language, and to lisps in general, and having to interpret Clojure's stacktraces is really hard. It is one of those things that made me not want to use the language at all. It also makes it hard for me to recommend the language to others. It is not just the stacktraces, but also the error messages. For beginners they really are a kick in the face: you have absolutely no idea of what you are doing, do you??. This extremely simple (and easy to debug :) ) example, shows my point I think: user= (1) java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Integer cannot be cast to clojure.lang.IFn (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0) How about at least hinting a little bit about what is wrong here? Trivial example yes, but when you get this, or something similar, inside a 50 line Clojure script, and it does not tell you where or why, it can be a bit frustrating. Clojure has steep learning curve, at least for a Java developer, and these problems make it difficult to do the effort of really getting to know the language. This is actually my main complaint about Clojure. I have no knowledge about clj-stacktrace, but I would welcome anything that makes it easier for beginners to get started. Anyhow, thanks for a great language and a great community. Having gotten through the initial shock, I am really starting to enjoy programming in Clojure. Cheers, - Alf On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 06:55, Phil Hagelberg p...@hagelb.org wrote: One of the most common complaints about the current implementation of Clojure is that the stack traces are often unreadable. At work we have been using Mark McGranaghan's clj-stacktrace library[1] to print stack traces, and it does a great job of cleaning them up and making it much clearer as to what the actual cause of the problem is. I've found it invaluable for this--it provides indentation, better details, and even coloring to help make the relevant frames stand out in the noise. I've spoken to him about it, and he is agreeable to the idea of merging it into Clojure. He is the sole author of it, and it sounds like he'd be fine with relicensing and copyright assignment. It appears at first glance to be compatible with the existing clojure.stacktrace library. Obviously before it could be merged we would need to investigate this more thoroughly, but I think it could be a valuable improvement to Clojure 1.3. Thoughts? -Phil [1] - http://github.com/mmcgrana/clj-stacktrace -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Clojure 1.3: Integrating clj-stacktrace?
+1 on improving stack traces (though I haven't had experience with clj-stacktrace, other than what I have read on this list). -- / Peter Schuller -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Clojure 1.3: Integrating clj-stacktrace?
I haven't had a lot of problems with stack-traces. I would be happy to have more information on the context, though. And maybe better reporting of exception occuring in a delayed context. (when forcing a seq and the excpetion occurs under a lazy.) In this situation I have sometimes fonud that the stacks where a bit srange, but I understand it is a well known problem with lazyness and difficult to solve. On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 12:54 PM, Peter Schuller peter.schul...@infidyne.com wrote: +1 on improving stack traces (though I haven't had experience with clj-stacktrace, other than what I have read on this list). -- / Peter Schuller -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Clojure 1.3: Integrating clj-stacktrace?
I agree with the point in discussion that the error messages in Clojure are more of a problem than stack traces per se. Regards, Shantanu On Aug 25, 5:02 pm, Nicolas Oury nicolas.o...@gmail.com wrote: I haven't had a lot of problems with stack-traces. I would be happy to have more information on the context, though. And maybe better reporting of exception occuring in a delayed context. (when forcing a seq and the excpetion occurs under a lazy.) In this situation I have sometimes fonud that the stacks where a bit srange, but I understand it is a well known problem with lazyness and difficult to solve. On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 12:54 PM, Peter Schuller peter.schul...@infidyne.com wrote: +1 on improving stack traces (though I haven't had experience with clj-stacktrace, other than what I have read on this list). -- / Peter Schuller -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Clojure 1.3: Integrating clj-stacktrace?
The error messages are often the easiest the thing in the world to improve, even if you are new to contributing to Clojure. Most of the bad error messages are in the context of macroexpansion, so it is almost free (in performance terms) to add rigorous checks and error messages. Take a look at assert-valid-fdecl at the bottom of core.clj, for example. To get better error reports for bad function declarations, just add more conditionals to this function. Patches welcome. *Specific* documentation of pain points also welcome. Stu I agree with the point in discussion that the error messages in Clojure are more of a problem than stack traces per se. Regards, Shantanu On Aug 25, 5:02 pm, Nicolas Oury nicolas.o...@gmail.com wrote: I haven't had a lot of problems with stack-traces. I would be happy to have more information on the context, though. And maybe better reporting of exception occuring in a delayed context. (when forcing a seq and the excpetion occurs under a lazy.) In this situation I have sometimes fonud that the stacks where a bit srange, but I understand it is a well known problem with lazyness and difficult to solve. On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 12:54 PM, Peter Schuller peter.schul...@infidyne.com wrote: +1 on improving stack traces (though I haven't had experience with clj-stacktrace, other than what I have read on this list). -- / Peter Schuller -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Clojure 1.3: Integrating clj-stacktrace?
Ahoy, On 25 August 2010 15:46, Stuart Halloway stuart.hallo...@gmail.com wrote: *Specific* documentation of pain points also welcome. In general I haven't found the stack traces to be too much of a problem, but the lack of full paths in the trace has bitten me. Since all of my namespaces have a core.clj this can mean a bit of detective work to find which core.clj is being reported. Cheers, David -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Clojure 1.3: Integrating clj-stacktrace?
I have the same problem, but you can usually figure that out by looking at the function to which the backtrace refers, as well as the filename: 4: clojure.lang.RT.nth(RT.java:722) 5: ddsolve.core$play_deal_strategically.invoke(core.clj:177) 6: ddsolve.core$eval2129.invoke(NO_SOURCE_FILE:1) 7: clojure.lang.Compiler.eval(Compiler.java:5424) Here I can tell that the problem was in ddsolve.core, not some other core.clj, from looking at line 5. On Aug 25, 7:06 am, David Jagoe davidja...@gmail.com wrote: Ahoy, On 25 August 2010 15:46, Stuart Halloway stuart.hallo...@gmail.com wrote: *Specific* documentation of pain points also welcome. In general I haven't found the stack traces to be too much of a problem, but the lack of full paths in the trace has bitten me. Since all of my namespaces have a core.clj this can mean a bit of detective work to find which core.clj is being reported. Cheers, David -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Clojure 1.3: Integrating clj-stacktrace?
+1 the default stacktraces in clojure are one of the most off-putting things for new people (Besides the ) :-)). On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 6:55 AM, Phil Hagelberg p...@hagelb.org wrote: One of the most common complaints about the current implementation of Clojure is that the stack traces are often unreadable. At work we have been using Mark McGranaghan's clj-stacktrace library[1] to print stack traces, and it does a great job of cleaning them up and making it much clearer as to what the actual cause of the problem is. I've found it invaluable for this--it provides indentation, better details, and even coloring to help make the relevant frames stand out in the noise. I've spoken to him about it, and he is agreeable to the idea of merging it into Clojure. He is the sole author of it, and it sounds like he'd be fine with relicensing and copyright assignment. It appears at first glance to be compatible with the existing clojure.stacktrace library. Obviously before it could be merged we would need to investigate this more thoroughly, but I think it could be a valuable improvement to Clojure 1.3. Thoughts? -Phil [1] - http://github.com/mmcgrana/clj-stacktrace -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- Anders Rune Jensen http://www.iola.dk -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Clojure 1.3: Integrating clj-stacktrace?
problem, but the lack of full paths in the trace has bitten me. Since all of my namespaces have a core.clj this can mean a bit of detective work to find which core.clj is being reported. +1 for that. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Clojure 1.3: Integrating clj-stacktrace?
On 25 August 2010 20:16, Alan a...@malloys.org wrote: I have the same problem, but you can usually figure that out by looking at the function to which the backtrace refers, as well as the filename: 4: clojure.lang.RT.nth(RT.java:722) 5: ddsolve.core$play_deal_strategically.invoke(core.clj:177) 6: ddsolve.core$eval2129.invoke(NO_SOURCE_FILE:1) 7: clojure.lang.Compiler.eval(Compiler.java:5424) Here I can tell that the problem was in ddsolve.core, not some other core.clj, from looking at line 5. Excellent point, Alan! Who knew you had to be able to read to be a developer! ;-) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Re: Clojure 1.3: Integrating clj-stacktrace?
+1 need to improve the present stacktrace, and error messages if clojure is to attract more noobs. On Wed, Aug 25, 2010 at 6:16 PM, Alan a...@malloys.org wrote: I have the same problem, but you can usually figure that out by looking at the function to which the backtrace refers, as well as the filename: 4: clojure.lang.RT.nth(RT.java:722) 5: ddsolve.core$play_deal_strategically.invoke(core.clj:177) 6: ddsolve.core$eval2129.invoke(NO_SOURCE_FILE:1) 7: clojure.lang.Compiler.eval(Compiler.java:5424) Here I can tell that the problem was in ddsolve.core, not some other core.clj, from looking at line 5. On Aug 25, 7:06 am, David Jagoe davidja...@gmail.com wrote: Ahoy, On 25 August 2010 15:46, Stuart Halloway stuart.hallo...@gmail.com wrote: *Specific* documentation of pain points also welcome. In general I haven't found the stack traces to be too much of a problem, but the lack of full paths in the trace has bitten me. Since all of my namespaces have a core.clj this can mean a bit of detective work to find which core.clj is being reported. Cheers, David -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comclojure%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
Clojure 1.3: Integrating clj-stacktrace?
One of the most common complaints about the current implementation of Clojure is that the stack traces are often unreadable. At work we have been using Mark McGranaghan's clj-stacktrace library[1] to print stack traces, and it does a great job of cleaning them up and making it much clearer as to what the actual cause of the problem is. I've found it invaluable for this--it provides indentation, better details, and even coloring to help make the relevant frames stand out in the noise. I've spoken to him about it, and he is agreeable to the idea of merging it into Clojure. He is the sole author of it, and it sounds like he'd be fine with relicensing and copyright assignment. It appears at first glance to be compatible with the existing clojure.stacktrace library. Obviously before it could be merged we would need to investigate this more thoroughly, but I think it could be a valuable improvement to Clojure 1.3. Thoughts? -Phil [1] - http://github.com/mmcgrana/clj-stacktrace -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Clojure group. To post to this group, send email to clojure@googlegroups.com Note that posts from new members are moderated - please be patient with your first post. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to clojure+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/clojure?hl=en
