Re: Compulsive over-optimization

2013-10-22 Thread Kendall Shaw 
Optimizing too much for readability, can't be well worth doing, I think. 
It's a contradiction in terms. Watching out for changes that make the 
code shorter instead of more readable seems like useful advice and maybe 
a sign that I am "optimizing" too much. I'm pretty sure I could figure 
out a way to waste time making something insignificantly more readable.


I don't have much of a problem with the abstract idea that good is 
better than bad. I have a problem with degrees of goodness. I doubt that 
there is a formula to guard against that, but advice like comparing 
readability vs.l terseness is what I was looking for.


Kendall

On 10/22/2013 02:42 AM, Niels van Klaveren wrote:
I can imagine this behavior. Unlike premature performance 
optimization, readability / terseness are well worth optimizing for 
when learning Clojure, as long as you value readability over terseness 
to keep well away from code golf territory.


With Clojure, I always have the idea that things could be done in a 
simpler way, and usually it can. A lot of what I consider 'draft' code 
that works can be cleaned up drastically, and sometimes after cleaning 
I still have some niggles.  However, with time my 'draft' code tends 
to get cleaner and cleaner, and I also see up front where algorithms 
and function input / output can be changed to prevent code getting 
needlessly complex, and having to handle more exceptions than rules.


While doing 4clojure problems, some of my first attempts were 4 or 5  
lines. While this is considered next nothing in Javaland, getting them 
down to 1 line, and comparing them to some of the Clojure vets you get 
a good feel for what's the idiomatic Clojure way to solve certain 
problems. So I guess it's all part of the learning process. I would 
not worry about it too much, you can only clean up for readability / 
terseness up to a point.


Be sure to stay away from performance optimization unless absolutely 
necessary. There's way too many options, and it needs a really good 
insight into Clojure's implementation details to do effectively. Most 
idiomatic Clojure code performs on par or better compared to other 
dynamic languages like Python and Ruby.


On Saturday, October 19, 2013 1:20:33 AM UTC+2, queshaw wrote:

With clojure in particular, I am having trouble not rearranging my
code
to be what I think is more optimal in ways that seem probably not
practical. I've noticed myself doing that when I'm newish to
languages
and apis. But, I go bonkers with clojure.

Do you have any thoughts about how to avoid that, other than Bob
Newhart's advice:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ow0lr63y4Mw


Kendall

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Re: Compulsive over-optimization

2013-10-22 Thread Alex Baranosky 
Well said Niels.

As far as performance optimization. Imo that's premature until you profile.


On Tue, Oct 22, 2013 at 2:42 AM, Niels van Klaveren <
niels.vanklave...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I can imagine this behavior. Unlike premature performance optimization,
> readability / terseness are well worth optimizing for when learning
> Clojure, as long as you value readability over terseness to keep well away
> from code golf territory.
>
> With Clojure, I always have the idea that things could be done in a
> simpler way, and usually it can. A lot of what I consider 'draft' code that
> works can be cleaned up drastically, and sometimes after cleaning I still
> have some niggles.  However, with time my 'draft' code tends to get cleaner
> and cleaner, and I also see up front where algorithms and function input /
> output can be changed to prevent code getting needlessly complex, and
> having to handle more exceptions than rules.
>
> While doing 4clojure problems, some of my first attempts were 4 or 5
> lines. While this is considered next nothing in Javaland, getting them down
> to 1 line, and comparing them to some of the Clojure vets you get a good
> feel for what's the idiomatic Clojure way to solve certain problems. So I
> guess it's all part of the learning process. I would not worry about it too
> much, you can only clean up for readability / terseness up to a point.
>
> Be sure to stay away from performance optimization unless absolutely
> necessary. There's way too many options, and it needs a really good insight
> into Clojure's implementation details to do effectively. Most idiomatic
> Clojure code performs on par or better compared to other dynamic languages
> like Python and Ruby.
>
>
> On Saturday, October 19, 2013 1:20:33 AM UTC+2, queshaw wrote:
>>
>> With clojure in particular, I am having trouble not rearranging my code
>> to be what I think is more optimal in ways that seem probably not
>> practical. I've noticed myself doing that when I'm newish to languages
>> and apis. But, I go bonkers with clojure.
>>
>> Do you have any thoughts about how to avoid that, other than Bob
>> Newhart's advice:
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?**v=Ow0lr63y4Mw
>>
>> Kendall
>>
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Re: Compulsive over-optimization

2013-10-22 Thread Niels van Klaveren 
I can imagine this behavior. Unlike premature performance optimization, 
readability / terseness are well worth optimizing for when learning 
Clojure, as long as you value readability over terseness to keep well away 
from code golf territory. 

With Clojure, I always have the idea that things could be done in a simpler 
way, and usually it can. A lot of what I consider 'draft' code that works 
can be cleaned up drastically, and sometimes after cleaning I still have 
some niggles.  However, with time my 'draft' code tends to get cleaner and 
cleaner, and I also see up front where algorithms and function input / 
output can be changed to prevent code getting needlessly complex, and 
having to handle more exceptions than rules.

While doing 4clojure problems, some of my first attempts were 4 or 5  
lines. While this is considered next nothing in Javaland, getting them down 
to 1 line, and comparing them to some of the Clojure vets you get a good 
feel for what's the idiomatic Clojure way to solve certain problems. So I 
guess it's all part of the learning process. I would not worry about it too 
much, you can only clean up for readability / terseness up to a point.

Be sure to stay away from performance optimization unless absolutely 
necessary. There's way too many options, and it needs a really good insight 
into Clojure's implementation details to do effectively. Most idiomatic 
Clojure code performs on par or better compared to other dynamic languages 
like Python and Ruby.

On Saturday, October 19, 2013 1:20:33 AM UTC+2, queshaw wrote:
>
> With clojure in particular, I am having trouble not rearranging my code 
> to be what I think is more optimal in ways that seem probably not 
> practical. I've noticed myself doing that when I'm newish to languages 
> and apis. But, I go bonkers with clojure. 
>
> Do you have any thoughts about how to avoid that, other than Bob 
> Newhart's advice: 
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ow0lr63y4Mw 
>
> Kendall 
>
>

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Re: Compulsive over-optimization

2013-10-20 Thread Alex Baranosky 
Kendall,

Refactoring is valuable especially when starting out, so that you can learn
how to represent patterns well in Clojure, imo.


On Sun, Oct 20, 2013 at 10:59 AM, Kendall Shaw wrote:

> I might have come off as obnoxious. So, sorry about that.
>
> Now that I think about it some more, the question probably doesn't have a
> procedure to suggest as an answer. It's in the same class as like "how do I
> start" or "how can I stop asking so many questions".
>
> Kendall
>
>
> On 10/19/2013 03:05 PM, Softaddicts wrote:
>
>> I read your post three times and now I need to get a couple of fuses
>> replaced :)
>>
>> Holy smoke, it's Saturday man ! Most of us are probably trying to recover
>> from the work week, give us a chance :)))
>>
>> Luc P.
>>
>>
>>  The question in the second paragraph depends on the belief that someone
>>> could engage in pointless refactoring.
>>>
>>> There is an implied assertion that clojure's design provides more
>>> opportunities for someone to engage in pointless refactoring.
>>>
>>> Disproving that someone could engage in pointless activity would miss
>>> the point of the question. So, providing an example for that would
>>> possibly lead to more confusion.
>>>
>>> If the implied asssertion about clojure's design were taken to further
>>> imply that the design is flawed in those cases, this would also be
>>> missing the point of the question.
>>>
>>> If  cases in which clojure's design were flawed were not invented for
>>> the purpose of pursuing this questioning. Without criticism of clojure's
>>> design, specifics about how clojure could be used in a multitude of ways
>>> to solve a problem, could be described by way of example. But, that
>>> would also miss the point of the question.
>>>
>>> So, if the image of someone engaging in pointless refactoring reminds
>>> you of an experience that you have had, and if you can use that as the
>>> model for a general case, how would you suggest preventing the general
>>> case from being made actual, in the future?
>>>
>>> Kendall
>>>
>>> On 10/19/2013 12:35 AM, Laurent PETIT wrote:
>>>
 Can you give a concrete example?

 Le samedi 19 octobre 2013, Kendall Shaw a écrit :

  With clojure in particular, I am having trouble not rearranging my
  code to be what I think is more optimal in ways that seem probably
  not practical. I've noticed myself doing that when I'm newish to
  languages and apis. But, I go bonkers with clojure.

  Do you have any thoughts about how to avoid that, other than Bob
  Newhart's advice:

  Bob Newhart-Stop It 
 
 >

  Kendall

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Re: Compulsive over-optimization

2013-10-20 Thread Kendall Shaw 

I might have come off as obnoxious. So, sorry about that.

Now that I think about it some more, the question probably doesn't have 
a procedure to suggest as an answer. It's in the same class as like "how 
do I start" or "how can I stop asking so many questions".


Kendall

On 10/19/2013 03:05 PM, Softaddicts wrote:

I read your post three times and now I need to get a couple of fuses
replaced :)

Holy smoke, it's Saturday man ! Most of us are probably trying to recover
from the work week, give us a chance :)))

Luc P.



The question in the second paragraph depends on the belief that someone
could engage in pointless refactoring.

There is an implied assertion that clojure's design provides more
opportunities for someone to engage in pointless refactoring.

Disproving that someone could engage in pointless activity would miss
the point of the question. So, providing an example for that would
possibly lead to more confusion.

If the implied asssertion about clojure's design were taken to further
imply that the design is flawed in those cases, this would also be
missing the point of the question.

If  cases in which clojure's design were flawed were not invented for
the purpose of pursuing this questioning. Without criticism of clojure's
design, specifics about how clojure could be used in a multitude of ways
to solve a problem, could be described by way of example. But, that
would also miss the point of the question.

So, if the image of someone engaging in pointless refactoring reminds
you of an experience that you have had, and if you can use that as the
model for a general case, how would you suggest preventing the general
case from being made actual, in the future?

Kendall

On 10/19/2013 12:35 AM, Laurent PETIT wrote:

Can you give a concrete example?

Le samedi 19 octobre 2013, Kendall Shaw a écrit :

 With clojure in particular, I am having trouble not rearranging my
 code to be what I think is more optimal in ways that seem probably
 not practical. I've noticed myself doing that when I'm newish to
 languages and apis. But, I go bonkers with clojure.

 Do you have any thoughts about how to avoid that, other than Bob
 Newhart's advice:

 Bob Newhart-Stop It 

 Kendall

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Re: Compulsive over-optimization

2013-10-19 Thread Softaddicts 
I read your post three times and now I need to get a couple of fuses
replaced :)

Holy smoke, it's Saturday man ! Most of us are probably trying to recover
from the work week, give us a chance :)))

Luc P.


> The question in the second paragraph depends on the belief that someone 
> could engage in pointless refactoring.
> 
> There is an implied assertion that clojure's design provides more 
> opportunities for someone to engage in pointless refactoring.
> 
> Disproving that someone could engage in pointless activity would miss 

> the point of the question. So, providing an example for that would 
> possibly lead to more confusion.
> 
> If the implied asssertion about clojure's design were taken to further 
> imply that the design is flawed in those cases, this would also be 
> missing the point of the question.
> 
> If  cases in which clojure's design were flawed were not invented for 

> the purpose of pursuing this questioning. Without criticism of clojure's 
> design, specifics about how clojure could be used in a multitude of ways 
> to solve a problem, could be described by way of example. But, that 
> would also miss the point of the question.
> 
> So, if the image of someone engaging in pointless refactoring reminds 

> you of an experience that you have had, and if you can use that as the 
> model for a general case, how would you suggest preventing the general 
> case from being made actual, in the future?
> 
> Kendall
> 
> On 10/19/2013 12:35 AM, Laurent PETIT wrote:
> > Can you give a concrete example?
> >
> > Le samedi 19 octobre 2013, Kendall Shaw a écrit :
> >
> > With clojure in particular, I am having trouble not rearranging my
> > code to be what I think is more optimal in ways that seem probably
> > not practical. I've noticed myself doing that when I'm newish to

> > languages and apis. But, I go bonkers with clojure.
> >
> > Do you have any thoughts about how to avoid that, other than Bob

> > Newhart's advice:
> >
> > Bob Newhart-Stop It 
> >
> > Kendall
> >
> > -- 
> > -- 
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> 
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> 
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Re: Compulsive over-optimization

2013-10-19 Thread Kendall Shaw 
The question in the second paragraph depends on the belief that someone 
could engage in pointless refactoring.


There is an implied assertion that clojure's design provides more 
opportunities for someone to engage in pointless refactoring.


Disproving that someone could engage in pointless activity would miss 
the point of the question. So, providing an example for that would 
possibly lead to more confusion.


If the implied asssertion about clojure's design were taken to further 
imply that the design is flawed in those cases, this would also be 
missing the point of the question.


If  cases in which clojure's design were flawed were not invented for 
the purpose of pursuing this questioning. Without criticism of clojure's 
design, specifics about how clojure could be used in a multitude of ways 
to solve a problem, could be described by way of example. But, that 
would also miss the point of the question.


So, if the image of someone engaging in pointless refactoring reminds 
you of an experience that you have had, and if you can use that as the 
model for a general case, how would you suggest preventing the general 
case from being made actual, in the future?


Kendall

On 10/19/2013 12:35 AM, Laurent PETIT wrote:

Can you give a concrete example?

Le samedi 19 octobre 2013, Kendall Shaw a écrit :

With clojure in particular, I am having trouble not rearranging my
code to be what I think is more optimal in ways that seem probably
not practical. I've noticed myself doing that when I'm newish to
languages and apis. But, I go bonkers with clojure.

Do you have any thoughts about how to avoid that, other than Bob
Newhart's advice:

Bob Newhart-Stop It 

Kendall

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Re: Compulsive over-optimization

2013-10-19 Thread Laurent PETIT 
Can you give a concrete example?

Le samedi 19 octobre 2013, Kendall Shaw a écrit :

> With clojure in particular, I am having trouble not rearranging my code to
> be what I think is more optimal in ways that seem probably not practical.
> I've noticed myself doing that when I'm newish to languages and apis. But,
> I go bonkers with clojure.
>
> Do you have any thoughts about how to avoid that, other than Bob Newhart's
> advice:
>
> Bob Newhart-Stop It 
>
> Kendall
>
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Re: Compulsive over-optimization

2013-10-18 Thread Kendall Shaw 

The premise is that it is rearranging that is not worth the effort.

I guess I will try estimating how long I would spend on a similar task 
using something I am more familiar with and then trying to keep within 
some proportion of that effort.


Kendall

On 10/18/2013 07:41 PM, John D. Hume wrote:


What kind of optimal do you compulsively rearrange for? Performance? 
Readability? Amusing terseness?


On Oct 18, 2013 6:20 PM, "Kendall Shaw" > wrote:


With clojure in particular, I am having trouble not rearranging my
code to be what I think is more optimal in ways that seem probably
not practical. I've noticed myself doing that when I'm newish to
languages and apis. But, I go bonkers with clojure.

Do you have any thoughts about how to avoid that, other than Bob
Newhart's advice:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ow0lr63y4Mw

Kendall

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Re: Compulsive over-optimization

2013-10-18 Thread John D. Hume 
What kind of optimal do you compulsively rearrange for? Performance?
Readability? Amusing terseness?
On Oct 18, 2013 6:20 PM, "Kendall Shaw"  wrote:

> With clojure in particular, I am having trouble not rearranging my code to
> be what I think is more optimal in ways that seem probably not practical.
> I've noticed myself doing that when I'm newish to languages and apis. But,
> I go bonkers with clojure.
>
> Do you have any thoughts about how to avoid that, other than Bob Newhart's
> advice:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?**v=Ow0lr63y4Mw
>
> Kendall
>
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Compulsive over-optimization

2013-10-18 Thread Kendall Shaw 
With clojure in particular, I am having trouble not rearranging my code 
to be what I think is more optimal in ways that seem probably not 
practical. I've noticed myself doing that when I'm newish to languages 
and apis. But, I go bonkers with clojure.


Do you have any thoughts about how to avoid that, other than Bob 
Newhart's advice:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ow0lr63y4Mw

Kendall

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