Re: Stus-List installing shaft zincs
I think it might be because your shaft zincs are further away from the prop thaat they are protecting than the bullet zinc on the aft hub of the prop. The bullet to fit my H5 Aotuoprop is quite expensive and I have to order it from AB Marine in RI so I tried putting a doughnut zinc next to the prop hub just aft of the strut and forward of the prop hub by about 1/4 inch, it barely fit in there because I aslo have a Spurs rope cutter on the shaft. since doing that I have not had to replace the bullet in the last 4-5 years and I will use it next year as well but the doughnut zinc installed just forward of the prop in June is used up when I haul in Oct and so is the teardrop zinc that I install forward of the strut. Before doing that I would use an expensive bullet zinc in 1 season. Dwight Veinot Alianna CC 35 MKII Head of St. Margaret's Bay, NS On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 10:49 AM, David Knecht davidakne...@gmail.comwrote: Hi Chuck- I had exactly the same experience after a May launch. The shaft zincs looked fine at that time, so I left them and put a new bullet on the prop. They still look pretty good and the bullet was nearly gone when I hauled. It seems like we are getting differential erosion. What are you thinking the Tefgel would do? Dave On Dec 1, 2013, at 9:50 PM, Chuck S cscheaf...@comcast.net wrote: Wow. Installed the bullet shaped zinc last Spring but launched late, early July. Haulout in mid November revealed it was fully intact while the MaxProp cone was half gone. I intend to try the Tefgel next season. Chuck Resolute 1990 CC 34R Atlantic City, NJ -- *From: *TOM VINCENT tvince...@msn.com *To: *CC Forum cnc-list@cnc-list.com *Sent: *Thursday, November 28, 2013 10:09:45 AM *Subject: *Stus-List installing shaft zincs I have a martec folding prop and install their bullet shaped zinc each spring, they recommend the zinc be installed next to the strut within 1/4 to 3/8. The zinc lasts me the entire year, I sail on the Upper Chesapeake Bay which is fresh water. Tom Frolic II 36' cb Chesapeake City, MD ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com David Knecht, Ph.D. Professor and Head of Microscopy Facility Department of Molecular and Cell Biology U-3125 91 N. Eagleville Rd. University of Connecticut Storrs, CT 06269 860-486-2200 860-486-4331 (fax) ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Stus-List CC 29 rig tuning
Sailors, Can anyone advise a rig tuning rookie on tuning his rig? A very experienced racing skipper came aboard and and gave me a few tips. All I did was loosen the baby stay a few turnsand that seemed to make a big improvement. So it got me thinking about the rest of the rig. Any ideas would be great help. Mike Cain mikebc...@gmail.com 1983 CC 29SD Antsea soon to be named something else ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Stus-List halyards again
I was thinking about the recent discussions of new high tech halyards and have a question. The PO replaced my halyards with all rope, but I don’t know what kind it is. I have noticed significant changes in sail shape over a day of sailing which I am presuming is stretch. Given the length of a rope halyard for a CC, the stretch factor seems like a serious issue. If you have 60’ of line after uphaul, then 2-4% stretch becomes a significant amount of change in mainsail shape. Those are the kinds of stretch numbers I am seeing for lower tech line. I don’t want to have to adjust the halyard during a race when shorthanded. One solution seem to be to use a low stretch line (spectra core, etc.) and the other is wire/rope. It looks like wire-rope is actually less expensive, so what is the down side? Are they less durable? If someone says weight, then I am going to ask for a calculation of the relative weight difference of wire vs rope given the huge mass of aluminum and dacron we all have sticking 40’ off the deck. I am hard pressed to believe that small weight difference is significant for non-Americas cup sailors. Dave David KnechtAries1990 CC 34+New London, CT ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List halyards again
David Have your ruled out slippage of the halyards in the clutches? We have this problem on a number of boats on which I sail. Mike From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of David Knecht Sent: Monday, December 02, 2013 11:58 AM To: CnC CnC discussion list Subject: Stus-List halyards again I was thinking about the recent discussions of new high tech halyards and have a question. The PO replaced my halyards with all rope, but I don't know what kind it is. I have noticed significant changes in sail shape over a day of sailing which I am presuming is stretch. Given the length of a rope halyard for a CC, the stretch factor seems like a serious issue. If you have 60' of line after uphaul, then 2-4% stretch becomes a significant amount of change in mainsail shape. Those are the kinds of stretch numbers I am seeing for lower tech line. I don't want to have to adjust the halyard during a race when shorthanded. One solution seem to be to use a low stretch line (spectra core, etc.) and the other is wire/rope. It looks like wire-rope is actually less expensive, so what is the down side? Are they less durable? If someone says weight, then I am going to ask for a calculation of the relative weight difference of wire vs rope given the huge mass of aluminum and dacron we all have sticking 40' off the deck. I am hard pressed to believe that small weight difference is significant for non-Americas cup sailors. Dave David Knecht Aries 1990 CC 34+ New London, CT pastedGraphic.tiff___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List halyards again
David I agree with you on that rational for using wire to rope halyards...I use all wire to rope except for the spinn halyards Dwight Veinot Alianna CC 35 MKII Head of St. Margaret's Bay, NS On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 11:58 AM, David Knecht davidakne...@gmail.comwrote: I was thinking about the recent discussions of new high tech halyards and have a question. The PO replaced my halyards with all rope, but I don’t know what kind it is. I have noticed significant changes in sail shape over a day of sailing which I am presuming is stretch. Given the length of a rope halyard for a CC, the stretch factor seems like a serious issue. If you have 60’ of line after uphaul, then 2-4% stretch becomes a significant amount of change in mainsail shape. Those are the kinds of stretch numbers I am seeing for lower tech line. I don’t want to have to adjust the halyard during a race when shorthanded. One solution seem to be to use a low stretch line (spectra core, etc.) and the other is wire/rope. It looks like wire-rope is actually less expensive, so what is the down side? Are they less durable? If someone says weight, then I am going to ask for a calculation of the relative weight difference of wire vs rope given the huge mass of aluminum and dacron we all have sticking 40’ off the deck. I am hard pressed to believe that small weight difference is significant for non-Americas cup sailors. Dave David Knecht Aries 1990 CC 34+ New London, CT ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com pastedGraphic.tiff___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List CC 29 rig tuning
In addition to photo album's rig tuning guide, I found the following document from Selden very useful: http://www.riggingandsails.com/pdf/selden-tuning.pdf Cheers,Aaron R.Admiral Maggie,1979 CC 30 MK1 #540Annapolis, MD From: mikebc...@gmail.com Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2013 16:58:58 -0800 To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Stus-List CC 29 rig tuning Sailors, Can anyone advise a rig tuning rookie on tuning his rig? A very experienced racing skipper came aboard and and gave me a few tips. All I did was loosen the baby stay a few turnsand that seemed to make a big improvement. So it got me thinking about the rest of the rig. Any ideas would be great help. Mike Cainmikebcain@gmail.com1983 CC 29SD Antsea soon to be named something else ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List CC 29 rig tuning
Go here: http://www.cncphotoalbum.com/doityourself/rod_rig_tuning.htm It's on the home page of the photoalbum if you ever want to find it again. Dennis C. Touche' 35-1 #83 Mandeville, LA From: Mike Cain mikebc...@gmail.com To: CC cnc-list@cnc-list.com Sent: Sunday, December 1, 2013 6:58 PM Subject: Stus-List CC 29 rig tuning Sailors, Can anyone advise a rig tuning rookie on tuning his rig? A very experienced racing skipper came aboard and and gave me a few tips. All I did was loosen the baby stay a few turnsand that seemed to make a big improvement. So it got me thinking about the rest of the rig. Any ideas would be great help. Mike Cain mikebc...@gmail.com 1983 CC 29SD Antsea soon to be named something else ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List halyards again
David, The rope is stretching over the entire 100 foot -plus length. Halyard tension should be adjusted during a race - less downwind, more upwind. You would need to check the sheaves to see if they were changed. Rope compatible sheaves are more V shaped. Rope is more of a DIY project unless you have the tools. You still the need the rope tail. Dyneema is lighter than wire, but I doubt you would notice the difference on a 12,000 boat. Joel 35/3 Annapolis On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 11:01 AM, Hoyt, Mike mike.h...@impgroup.com wrote: David Have your ruled out slippage of the halyards in the clutches? We have this problem on a number of boats on which I sail. Mike -- *From:* CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] *On Behalf Of *David Knecht *Sent:* Monday, December 02, 2013 11:58 AM *To:* CnC CnC discussion list *Subject:* Stus-List halyards again I was thinking about the recent discussions of new high tech halyards and have a question. The PO replaced my halyards with all rope, but I don’t know what kind it is. I have noticed significant changes in sail shape over a day of sailing which I am presuming is stretch. Given the length of a rope halyard for a CC, the stretch factor seems like a serious issue. If you have 60’ of line after uphaul, then 2-4% stretch becomes a significant amount of change in mainsail shape. Those are the kinds of stretch numbers I am seeing for lower tech line. I don’t want to have to adjust the halyard during a race when shorthanded. One solution seem to be to use a low stretch line (spectra core, etc.) and the other is wire/rope. It looks like wire-rope is actually less expensive, so what is the down side? Are they less durable? If someone says weight, then I am going to ask for a calculation of the relative weight difference of wire vs rope given the huge mass of aluminum and dacron we all have sticking 40’ off the deck. I am hard pressed to believe that small weight difference is significant for non-Americas cup sailors. Dave David Knecht Aries 1990 CC 34+ New London, CT ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com -- Joel 301 541 8551 pastedGraphic.tiff___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List installing shaft zincs
I generally put two identical zincs on our prop shaft. When I hauled this year one was 3/4 gone and the other fully intact. I was wondering what on earth might have caused that until I saw this thread... Tim Mojito CC 35-3 Branford, CT On Sun, Dec 1, 2013 at 9:50 PM, Chuck S cscheaf...@comcast.net wrote: Wow. Installed the bullet shaped zinc last Spring but launched late, early July. Haulout in mid November revealed it was fully intact while the MaxProp cone was half gone. I intend to try the Tefgel next season. Chuck Resolute 1990 CC 34R Atlantic City, NJ -- *From: *TOM VINCENT tvince...@msn.com *To: *CC Forum cnc-list@cnc-list.com *Sent: *Thursday, November 28, 2013 10:09:45 AM *Subject: *Stus-List installing shaft zincs I have a martec folding prop and install their bullet shaped zinc each spring, they recommend the zinc be installed next to the strut within 1/4 to 3/8. The zinc lasts me the entire year, I sail on the Upper Chesapeake Bay which is fresh water. Tom Frolic II 36' cb Chesapeake City, MD ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List installing shaft zincs
Path of least resistance for current flow is the shortest path, closest one to the prop should go first Dwight Veinot Alianna CC 35 MKII Head of St. Margaret's Bay, NS On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 12:34 PM, Tim Goodyear timg...@gmail.com wrote: I generally put two identical zincs on our prop shaft. When I hauled this year one was 3/4 gone and the other fully intact. I was wondering what on earth might have caused that until I saw this thread... Tim Mojito CC 35-3 Branford, CT On Sun, Dec 1, 2013 at 9:50 PM, Chuck S cscheaf...@comcast.net wrote: Wow. Installed the bullet shaped zinc last Spring but launched late, early July. Haulout in mid November revealed it was fully intact while the MaxProp cone was half gone. I intend to try the Tefgel next season. Chuck Resolute 1990 CC 34R Atlantic City, NJ -- *From: *TOM VINCENT tvince...@msn.com *To: *CC Forum cnc-list@cnc-list.com *Sent: *Thursday, November 28, 2013 10:09:45 AM *Subject: *Stus-List installing shaft zincs I have a martec folding prop and install their bullet shaped zinc each spring, they recommend the zinc be installed next to the strut within 1/4 to 3/8. The zinc lasts me the entire year, I sail on the Upper Chesapeake Bay which is fresh water. Tom Frolic II 36' cb Chesapeake City, MD ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List halyards again
Joel, not exactly. I don’t know what kind of masts you guys have, but probably not in the 100 ft range. The halyard stretches only on the length of the mast plus the line from the mast to the clutch (if you run it to the cockpit). Most of the boats we talk about here have masts in the 40-45 ft range (P dimension). Add 10 ft for mast to clutch distance. So we are talking 50-60 ft max. Additionally, the problem is not with the stretch itself. Once you hoist the sail and tighten the halyard, you induced most of that stretch already (it is a good 1+ ft!). The issue is with how that stretch varies with time and load (creep). In most applications, that creep is substantially less (single inches vs. 1-2 ft). One of the funniest parts is that Dyneema has substantial creep under a static load (more than many other less exotic lines). Marek (in Ottawa) __ Message: 1 Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2013 11:32:05 -0500 From: Joel Aronson joel.aron...@gmail.com To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List halyards again Message-ID: CAEL16P9Qpho8Pte4PZH90t_Y8i-L9bTC+v-U7KN5=nttzc0...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 David, The rope is stretching over the entire 100 foot -plus length. Halyard tension should be adjusted during a race - less downwind, more upwind. You would need to check the sheaves to see if they were changed. Rope compatible sheaves are more V shaped. Rope is more of a DIY project unless you have the tools. You still the need the rope tail. Dyneema is lighter than wire, but I doubt you would notice the difference on a 12,000 boat. Joel 35/3 Annapolis ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List halyards again
Rope is lighter, DIY, easier on the hand, easier on the sheaves, rope doesn't get fish hooks and won't chew on the other lines as bad. Often times the rope will float depending on the material and may be hydrophobic. You can also flip rope end for end when it starts to get worn or simply freshen up the end. Just my 2 cents, Josh Muckley On Dec 2, 2013 11:32 AM, Joel Aronson joel.aron...@gmail.com wrote: David, The rope is stretching over the entire 100 foot -plus length. Halyard tension should be adjusted during a race - less downwind, more upwind. You would need to check the sheaves to see if they were changed. Rope compatible sheaves are more V shaped. Rope is more of a DIY project unless you have the tools. You still the need the rope tail. Dyneema is lighter than wire, but I doubt you would notice the difference on a 12,000 boat. Joel 35/3 Annapolis On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 11:01 AM, Hoyt, Mike mike.h...@impgroup.comwrote: David Have your ruled out slippage of the halyards in the clutches? We have this problem on a number of boats on which I sail. Mike -- *From:* CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] *On Behalf Of *David Knecht *Sent:* Monday, December 02, 2013 11:58 AM *To:* CnC CnC discussion list *Subject:* Stus-List halyards again I was thinking about the recent discussions of new high tech halyards and have a question. The PO replaced my halyards with all rope, but I don’t know what kind it is. I have noticed significant changes in sail shape over a day of sailing which I am presuming is stretch. Given the length of a rope halyard for a CC, the stretch factor seems like a serious issue. If you have 60’ of line after uphaul, then 2-4% stretch becomes a significant amount of change in mainsail shape. Those are the kinds of stretch numbers I am seeing for lower tech line. I don’t want to have to adjust the halyard during a race when shorthanded. One solution seem to be to use a low stretch line (spectra core, etc.) and the other is wire/rope. It looks like wire-rope is actually less expensive, so what is the down side? Are they less durable? If someone says weight, then I am going to ask for a calculation of the relative weight difference of wire vs rope given the huge mass of aluminum and dacron we all have sticking 40’ off the deck. I am hard pressed to believe that small weight difference is significant for non-Americas cup sailors. Dave David Knecht Aries 1990 CC 34+ New London, CT ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com -- Joel 301 541 8551 ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com pastedGraphic.tiff___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List halyards again
Marek, You are correct about the length! I was thinking of the overall length, not the hoisted length. Its Monday. My 35/3 has about a 45 foot mast, so with the run to the clutch we are talking about 55 feet. My VPC probably stretches no more than 4 inches as I load it. Dyneema does not actually stretch - the braids bury and compact when loaded, lengthening the line. Once it is loaded, it isn't going anywhere. I was told to make my Dyneema lifelines 6 inches shorter than the wire, and it is a good thing I listened. 1/4 in Amsteel is rated at 8600 pounds and is $1.40 a foot at Defender. Add 6 feet of cover and you are good to go. Joel On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 12:43 PM, Marek Dziedzic dziedzi...@hotmail.comwrote: Joel, not exactly. I don’t know what kind of masts you guys have, but probably not in the 100 ft range. The halyard stretches only on the length of the mast plus the line from the mast to the clutch (if you run it to the cockpit). Most of the boats we talk about here have masts in the 40-45 ft range (P dimension). Add 10 ft for mast to clutch distance. So we are talking 50-60 ft max. Additionally, the problem is not with the stretch itself. Once you hoist the sail and tighten the halyard, you induced most of that stretch already (it is a good 1+ ft!). The issue is with how that stretch varies with time and load (creep). In most applications, that creep is substantially less (single inches vs. 1-2 ft). One of the funniest parts is that Dyneema has substantial creep under a static load (more than many other less exotic lines). Marek (in Ottawa) __ Message: 1 Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2013 11:32:05 -0500 From: Joel Aronson joel.aron...@gmail.com To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List halyards again Message-ID: CAEL16P9Qpho8Pte4PZH90t_Y8i-L9bTC+v-U7KN5=nttzc0...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 David, The rope is stretching over the entire 100 foot -plus length. Halyard tension should be adjusted during a race - less downwind, more upwind. You would need to check the sheaves to see if they were changed. Rope compatible sheaves are more V shaped. Rope is more of a DIY project unless you have the tools. You still the need the rope tail. Dyneema is lighter than wire, but I doubt you would notice the difference on a 12,000 boat. Joel 35/3 Annapolis ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com -- Joel 301 541 8551 ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List halyards again
Many years ago, when I wasn't winning races with my first boat, I spoke with my sailmaker about getting a new sail. Instead of selling me a new sail, he suggested I work on my crew work, and only consider getting a new sail when I'm losing races by seconds. Dave, are you losing races by seconds? If it's more like minutes, new halyards won't help you. I replaced my wire/rope halyards with all rope when I started to get my hands chewed up by meat hooks. I didn't go with the most expensive high tech halyard material, and I'm still competitive. I replaced the spinnaker sheaves with new ones from Zepherwerks because the old ones were chewing up the halyards. I also found that there is less slippage if I hoist sails with the rope clutch open, and close the clutch when hoisting is finished. Alan Bergen 35 Mk III Thirsty Rose City YC Portland, OR ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List halyards again
Good sailmaker, Alan! Bet you wouldn't go anywhere else for a sail, now. Andy CC 40 Peregrine Andrew Burton 61 W Narragansett Newport, RI USA02840 http://sites.google.com/site/andrewburtonyachtservices/ +401 965-5260 On Dec 2, 2013, at 15:34, Alan Bergen alan-at-h...@comcast.net wrote: Many years ago, when I wasn't winning races with my first boat, I spoke with my sailmaker about getting a new sail. Instead of selling me a new sail, he suggested I work on my crew work, and only consider getting a new sail when I'm losing races by seconds. Dave, are you losing races by seconds? If it's more like minutes, new halyards won't help you. I replaced my wire/rope halyards with all rope when I started to get my hands chewed up by meat hooks. I didn't go with the most expensive high tech halyard material, and I'm still competitive. I replaced the spinnaker sheaves with new ones from Zepherwerks because the old ones were chewing up the halyards. I also found that there is less slippage if I hoist sails with the rope clutch open, and close the clutch when hoisting is finished. Alan Bergen 35 Mk III Thirsty Rose City YC Portland, OR ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List halyards again
Hi David, I switched to spectra for both genoa halyards and the main halyard. They are expensive, they are much nicer on the hands and there is no noticeable stretch. The weight aloft does make a differenceI don't remember the numbers but 10 lbs aloft equals one man on the rail.or something like that !! Now, bear in mind that I am a recovering racer and have carbon main and headsails. Makes a difference and, after all, isn't your boat as special to you as any AC vessel. Niall Buckley. CC41 Ardea 2 On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 11:58 AM, David Knecht davidakne...@gmail.comwrote: I was thinking about the recent discussions of new high tech halyards and have a question. The PO replaced my halyards with all rope, but I don’t know what kind it is. I have noticed significant changes in sail shape over a day of sailing which I am presuming is stretch. Given the length of a rope halyard for a CC, the stretch factor seems like a serious issue. If you have 60’ of line after uphaul, then 2-4% stretch becomes a significant amount of change in mainsail shape. Those are the kinds of stretch numbers I am seeing for lower tech line. I don’t want to have to adjust the halyard during a race when shorthanded. One solution seem to be to use a low stretch line (spectra core, etc.) and the other is wire/rope. It looks like wire-rope is actually less expensive, so what is the down side? Are they less durable? If someone says weight, then I am going to ask for a calculation of the relative weight difference of wire vs rope given the huge mass of aluminum and dacron we all have sticking 40’ off the deck. I am hard pressed to believe that small weight difference is significant for non-Americas cup sailors. Dave David Knecht Aries 1990 CC 34+ New London, CT ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com pastedGraphic.tiff___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List halyards again
Most often, halyard damage occurs at or near the eye splice at the working end. When buying halyards, particularly hi-tech halyards, I buy them 10-15 feet extra long so I can end for end them. If the byte end hasn't been loaded, you can usually splice an eye in it. Over the years, I truly believe I've saved money by doing this.Dennis C.Touche' 35-1 #83Mandeville, LA From: niall buckley niall.j.buck...@gmail.com To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Sent: Monday, December 2, 2013 3:01 PM Subject: Re: Stus-List halyards again Hi David,I switched to spectra for both genoa halyards and the main halyard.They are expensive, they are much nicer on the hands and there isno noticeable stretch. The weight aloft does make a differenceI don't remember the numbers but 10 lbs aloft equals one man on therail.or something like that !!Now, bear in mind that I am a recovering racer and have carbon mainand headsails. Makes a difference and, after all, isn't your boat as special to you asany AC vessel.Niall Buckley.CC41 Ardea 2 On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 11:58 AM, David Knecht davidakne...@gmail.com wrote: I was thinking about the recent discussions of new high tech halyards and have a question. The PO replaced my halyards with all rope, but I don’t know what kind it is. I have noticed significant changes in sail shape over a day of sailing which I am presuming is stretch. Given the length of a rope halyard for a CC, the stretch factor seems like a serious issue. If you have 60’ of line after uphaul, then 2-4% stretch becomes a significant amount of change in mainsail shape. Those are the kinds of stretch numbers I am seeing for lower tech line. I don’t want to have to adjust the halyard during a race when shorthanded. One solution seem to be to use a low stretch line (spectra core, etc.) and the other is wire/rope. It looks like wire-rope is actually less expensive, so what is the down side? Are they less durable? If someone says weight, then I am going to ask for a calculation of the relative weight difference of wire vs rope given the huge mass of aluminum and dacron we all have sticking 40’ off the deck. I am hard pressed to believe that small weight difference is significant for non-Americas cup sailors. Dave David KnechtAries1990 CC 34+New London, CT ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___This List is provided by the CC Photo Albumhttp://www.cncphotoalbum.comCnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List halyards again
Dwight, you obviously don't work on the pointy end of the boat! Whoever does that on your boat is handling wire, and fish hooks suck James S/V Delaney 1976 CC 38 Oriental, NC - Original Message - From: dwight To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Sent: Monday, December 02, 2013 4:41 PM Subject: Re: Stus-List halyards again I never get the wire on my hands, so I don't worry about fish hooks.you need to adjust length at the wire end to make that right.my boat was delivered with rope to wire about 40 years ago.the sheaves don't mind some new wire.my lines don't chew on each other.if they did I would change something.if my halyards get that close to the water that floating matters I am in big trouble.hydrophobic, I think steel wire is too Flipping end for end, really how many of us do that, if it's that bad on one end I just get a new one and with wire to rope that is about every 10-15 years for me.I can handle that -- From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Josh Muckley Sent: December 2, 2013 1:44 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List halyards again Rope is lighter, DIY, easier on the hand, easier on the sheaves, rope doesn't get fish hooks and won't chew on the other lines as bad. Often times the rope will float depending on the material and may be hydrophobic. You can also flip rope end for end when it starts to get worn or simply freshen up the end. Just my 2 cents, Josh Muckley On Dec 2, 2013 11:32 AM, Joel Aronson joel.aron...@gmail.com wrote: David, The rope is stretching over the entire 100 foot -plus length. Halyard tension should be adjusted during a race - less downwind, more upwind. You would need to check the sheaves to see if they were changed. Rope compatible sheaves are more V shaped. Rope is more of a DIY project unless you have the tools. You still the need the rope tail. Dyneema is lighter than wire, but I doubt you would notice the difference on a 12,000 boat. Joel 35/3 Annapolis On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 11:01 AM, Hoyt, Mike mike.h...@impgroup.com wrote: David Have your ruled out slippage of the halyards in the clutches? We have this problem on a number of boats on which I sail. Mike -- From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of David Knecht Sent: Monday, December 02, 2013 11:58 AM To: CnC CnC discussion list Subject: Stus-List halyards again I was thinking about the recent discussions of new high tech halyards and have a question. The PO replaced my halyards with all rope, but I don't know what kind it is. I have noticed significant changes in sail shape over a day of sailing which I am presuming is stretch. Given the length of a rope halyard for a CC, the stretch factor seems like a serious issue. If you have 60' of line after uphaul, then 2-4% stretch becomes a significant amount of change in mainsail shape. Those are the kinds of stretch numbers I am seeing for lower tech line. I don't want to have to adjust the halyard during a race when shorthanded. One solution seem to be to use a low stretch line (spectra core, etc.) and the other is wire/rope. It looks like wire-rope is actually less expensive, so what is the down side? Are they less durable? If someone says weight, then I am going to ask for a calculation of the relative weight difference of wire vs rope given the huge mass of aluminum and dacron we all have sticking 40' off the deck. I am hard pressed to believe that small weight difference is significant for non-Americas cup sailors. Dave David Knecht Aries 1990 CC 34+ New London, CT ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com -- Joel 301 541 8551 ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com -- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2247 / Virus Database: 3629/6384 - Release Date: 12/02/13 -- ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com image001.jpg___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List 30 MKI weather helm - mast rake
The manual for my 30 indicates the rake should be 9in measured at the gooseneck. I have a 1973 vintage. I've sailed in 15kt with gusts and the 160 up and a bubble in half the main, traveler down, with no problems with weather helm until the puffs hit. Granted the rail was almost kissing the water. Something sounds wrong if you're suffering weather helm and I don't believe it's the mast rake. Ron Wild Cheri On Wednesday, November 27, 2013 6:32 PM, Dennis C. capt...@yahoo.com wrote: Aaron, It's not a 10 rake, it's a 1 degree rake. Conventional wisdom for CC's seems to be that a 1 inch rake is optimum. However, that's dependent on lots of factors, namely the condition of the sails. Flat sails result in less weather helm. Note that it's not just the main but can include the genoa as well. A larger genoa, 150-170% overlap, with a deep draft aft or a cupped leech can increase the propensity for weather helm. Yes, it's a balance between center of effort (CE) and center of resistance (CR). The draft of the sails affects CE. The further aft the draft is, the more CE moves aft. The deeper the draft, the more effect it has. So, 1 degree of rake is probably about 7 inches for your boat. I run about 11 inches on Touche' and am contemplating another inch or two more. Multiply your boat's P dimension by the sine of 1 degree or 0.01745. Your P is 34 feet. That gives you 0.5933 feet or 7 inches aft. Drop a plumb from the masthead to the gooseneck. Increasing the length of your forestay will move the masthead aft and increase rake. I seem to believe 1 inch of forestay will move the masthead about 3-4 inches. You can approximate it closely it with the Pythagorean theorem. Go here: http://www.basic-mathematics.com/pythagorean-theorem-calculator.html Assuming the technical info on the CC website is a plumb mast, we do a bit of math. C = your I dimension or 39 feet. A will be your J dimension, 13.5 feet. This yields a B of 36.6. This will be the new B in our next calculation. Let's add the desired rake, 7 inches to the old J to yield a new A of 14.08. Plug that in with the calculated B of 36.6 and you get a new C of 39.2. So, you need to increase your I dimension by .2 feet or about 2.5 inches to move the masthead 7 inches. Of course, your mast may not be plumb but you can use the tool above to see where you need to be. Good luck, Dennis C. Touche' 35-1 #83 Mandeville, LA From: Aaron Rouhi admiralmag...@outlook.com To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com cnc-list@cnc-list.com Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2013 2:14 PM Subject: Re: Stus-List 30 MKI weather helm I never tried a 10 rake. I'll give it shot. I think I have enough tread in my forestay turnbuckle... Thanks guys! Cheers, Aaron R. Admiral Maggie, 1979 CC 30 MK1 #540 Annapolis, MD From: dwight...@gmail.com To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 16:08:37 -0400 Subject: Re: Stus-List 30 MKI weather helm Your thinking seems fine: I just have no experience with forward rake that I can share. I have never tried that but I don’t think it would work good upwind…6-10 inches should be good, something else might be the problem From:CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Aaron Rouhi Sent: November 27, 2013 3:55 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List 30 MKI weather helm Hmmm I always thought with more mast rake the Center Of Effort moves further aft which means wind pushing the boat from behind the CLR and as a result weather helm increases so using that logic I raked it forward to move COE forward. Am I wrong? Cheers, Aaron R. Admiral Maggie, 1979 CC 30 MK1 #540 Annapolis, MD From: f...@postaudio.net Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 13:43:13 -0600 To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List 30 MKI weather helm Aaron — Dwight’s right, you’re going the wrong way! Rake aft about six to eight inches and see what happens. Fred Street-- Minneapolis S/V Oceanis (1979 CC Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI :^( On Nov 27, 2013, at 12:52 PM, dwight dwight...@gmail.com wrote: What is she like after that change? I am not sure how that would work on a beat…seems unconventional to me…I would try 6 to 10 inches aft Are you talking 10 kts true or apparent wind…is it usual for you have a reef in when most other boats around you don’t From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Aaron Rouhi Sent: November 27, 2013 2:20 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List 30 MKI weather helm It's raked about an inch forward... It's a recent change I made in an attempt to reduce the weather helm... ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List halyards again
Right.I never go up there except when on the hook and neither does anyone else.we carry a furling 135 and a main sail, both of them pretty good performance sails but we don't race and we don't need to do headsail changes on the fly to have fun and the rest of my numerous sails stay in the basement.we sail in a very civilized way and it is great.if you like to race good for you, I know exactly what that is like, it's different than just sailing for fun with your wife and if you like to work the bow on a racing boat even better, hard work.but having done that for many years (not the bow but racing I mean) I finally know where the fun really is _ From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of jtsails Sent: December 2, 2013 7:02 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List halyards again Dwight, you obviously don't work on the pointy end of the boat! Whoever does that on your boat is handling wire, and fish hooks suck James S/V Delaney 1976 CC 38 Oriental, NC - Original Message - From: dwight mailto:dwight...@gmail.com To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Sent: Monday, December 02, 2013 4:41 PM Subject: Re: Stus-List halyards again I never get the wire on my hands, so I don't worry about fish hooks.you need to adjust length at the wire end to make that right.my boat was delivered with rope to wire about 40 years ago.the sheaves don't mind some new wire.my lines don't chew on each other.if they did I would change something.if my halyards get that close to the water that floating matters I am in big trouble.hydrophobic, I think steel wire is too Flipping end for end, really how many of us do that, if it's that bad on one end I just get a new one and with wire to rope that is about every 10-15 years for me.I can handle that _ From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Josh Muckley Sent: December 2, 2013 1:44 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List halyards again Rope is lighter, DIY, easier on the hand, easier on the sheaves, rope doesn't get fish hooks and won't chew on the other lines as bad. Often times the rope will float depending on the material and may be hydrophobic. You can also flip rope end for end when it starts to get worn or simply freshen up the end. Just my 2 cents, Josh Muckley On Dec 2, 2013 11:32 AM, Joel Aronson joel.aron...@gmail.com wrote: David, The rope is stretching over the entire 100 foot -plus length. Halyard tension should be adjusted during a race - less downwind, more upwind. You would need to check the sheaves to see if they were changed. Rope compatible sheaves are more V shaped. Rope is more of a DIY project unless you have the tools. You still the need the rope tail. Dyneema is lighter than wire, but I doubt you would notice the difference on a 12,000 boat. Joel 35/3 Annapolis On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 11:01 AM, Hoyt, Mike mike.h...@impgroup.com wrote: David Have your ruled out slippage of the halyards in the clutches? We have this problem on a number of boats on which I sail. Mike _ From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of David Knecht Sent: Monday, December 02, 2013 11:58 AM To: CnC CnC discussion list Subject: Stus-List halyards again I was thinking about the recent discussions of new high tech halyards and have a question. The PO replaced my halyards with all rope, but I don't know what kind it is. I have noticed significant changes in sail shape over a day of sailing which I am presuming is stretch. Given the length of a rope halyard for a CC, the stretch factor seems like a serious issue. If you have 60' of line after uphaul, then 2-4% stretch becomes a significant amount of change in mainsail shape. Those are the kinds of stretch numbers I am seeing for lower tech line. I don't want to have to adjust the halyard during a race when shorthanded. One solution seem to be to use a low stretch line (spectra core, etc.) and the other is wire/rope. It looks like wire-rope is actually less expensive, so what is the down side? Are they less durable? If someone says weight, then I am going to ask for a calculation of the relative weight difference of wire vs rope given the huge mass of aluminum and dacron we all have sticking 40' off the deck. I am hard pressed to believe that small weight difference is significant for non-Americas cup sailors. Dave David Knecht Aries 1990 CC 34+ New London, CT ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com -- Joel 301 541 tel:301%20541%208551 8551 ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com _ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2247 / Virus Database: 3629/6384
Re: Stus-List 30 MKI weather helm - mast rake
Ron That sounds about right from my experience, but I like the way the boat works with a slightly smaller headsail _ From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Ronald B. Frerker Sent: December 2, 2013 7:16 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List 30 MKI weather helm - mast rake The manual for my 30 indicates the rake should be 9in measured at the gooseneck. I have a 1973 vintage. I've sailed in 15kt with gusts and the 160 up and a bubble in half the main, traveler down, with no problems with weather helm until the puffs hit. Granted the rail was almost kissing the water. Something sounds wrong if you're suffering weather helm and I don't believe it's the mast rake. Ron Wild Cheri On Wednesday, November 27, 2013 6:32 PM, Dennis C. capt...@yahoo.com wrote: Aaron, It's not a 10 rake, it's a 1 degree rake. Conventional wisdom for CC's seems to be that a 1 inch rake is optimum. However, that's dependent on lots of factors, namely the condition of the sails. Flat sails result in less weather helm. Note that it's not just the main but can include the genoa as well. A larger genoa, 150-170% overlap, with a deep draft aft or a cupped leech can increase the propensity for weather helm. Yes, it's a balance between center of effort (CE) and center of resistance (CR). The draft of the sails affects CE. The further aft the draft is, the more CE moves aft. The deeper the draft, the more effect it has. So, 1 degree of rake is probably about 7 inches for your boat. I run about 11 inches on Touche' and am contemplating another inch or two more. Multiply your boat's P dimension by the sine of 1 degree or 0.01745. Your P is 34 feet. That gives you 0.5933 feet or 7 inches aft. Drop a plumb from the masthead to the gooseneck. Increasing the length of your forestay will move the masthead aft and increase rake. I seem to believe 1 inch of forestay will move the masthead about 3-4 inches. You can approximate it closely it with the Pythagorean theorem. Go here: http://www.basic-mathematics.com/pythagorean-theorem-calculator.html Assuming the technical info on the CC website is a plumb mast, we do a bit of math. C = your I dimension or 39 feet. A will be your J dimension, 13.5 feet. This yields a B of 36.6. This will be the new B in our next calculation. Let's add the desired rake, 7 inches to the old J to yield a new A of 14.08. Plug that in with the calculated B of 36.6 and you get a new C of 39.2. So, you need to increase your I dimension by .2 feet or about 2.5 inches to move the masthead 7 inches. Of course, your mast may not be plumb but you can use the tool above to see where you need to be. Good luck, Dennis C. Touche' 35-1 #83 Mandeville, LA _ From: Aaron Rouhi admiralmag...@outlook.com To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com cnc-list@cnc-list.com Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2013 2:14 PM Subject: Re: Stus-List 30 MKI weather helm I never tried a 10 rake. I'll give it shot. I think I have enough tread in my forestay turnbuckle... Thanks guys! Cheers, Aaron R. Admiral Maggie, 1979 CC 30 MK1 #540 Annapolis, MD _ From: dwight...@gmail.com To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 16:08:37 -0400 Subject: Re: Stus-List 30 MKI weather helm Your thinking seems fine: I just have no experience with forward rake that I can share. I have never tried that but I don't think it would work good upwind.6-10 inches should be good, something else might be the problem _ From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Aaron Rouhi Sent: November 27, 2013 3:55 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List 30 MKI weather helm Hmmm I always thought with more mast rake the Center Of Effort moves further aft which means wind pushing the boat from behind the CLR and as a result weather helm increases so using that logic I raked it forward to move COE forward. Am I wrong? Cheers, Aaron R. Admiral Maggie, 1979 CC 30 MK1 #540 Annapolis, MD _ From: f...@postaudio.net Date: Wed, 27 Nov 2013 13:43:13 -0600 To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List 30 MKI weather helm Aaron - Dwight's right, you're going the wrong way! Rake aft about six to eight inches and see what happens. Fred Street -- Minneapolis S/V Oceanis (1979 CC Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI :^( On Nov 27, 2013, at 12:52 PM, dwight dwight...@gmail.com wrote: What is she like after that change? I am not sure how that would work on a beat.seems unconventional to me.I would try 6 to 10 inches aft Are you talking 10 kts true or apparent wind.is it usual for you have a reef in when most other boats around you don't _ From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Aaron Rouhi Sent: November 27, 2013 2:20 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List 30 MKI weather helm It's raked about an inch forward...
Re: Stus-List Winterizing
Rick, Fogging oil is also useful for fogging tools and equipment for storage. In the military we used a product called PLS in the machine shop and the armory. It lubricates and protects. Jake Jake Brodersen Midnight Mistress CC 35 Mk-III Hampton Va cid:D1BF9853-22F7-47FB-86F2-4115CE0BAF2F From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Rick Brass Sent: Monday, December 02, 2013 9:03 AM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Winterizing Dwight; Fogging oil is pretty much what you surmise: a light machine oil (think 3-in-1 Oil or sewing machine oil) in an aerosol can with a nozzle designed to produce a very fine mist (like fog). The fog of oil gets drawn into the cylinders with the airflow and coats any surface it touches. I really don't think I've ever run across any other application than preserving automotive, diesel, and outboard engines for storage. Rick image001.png___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Winterizing
Most oils do that, lubricate and protect _ From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Jake Brodersen Sent: December 2, 2013 7:21 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Winterizing Rick, Fogging oil is also useful for fogging tools and equipment for storage. In the military we used a product called PLS in the machine shop and the armory. It lubricates and protects. Jake Jake Brodersen Midnight Mistress CC 35 Mk-III Hampton Va cid:D1BF9853-22F7-47FB-86F2-4115CE0BAF2F From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Rick Brass Sent: Monday, December 02, 2013 9:03 AM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Winterizing Dwight; Fogging oil is pretty much what you surmise: a light machine oil (think 3-in-1 Oil or sewing machine oil) in an aerosol can with a nozzle designed to produce a very fine mist (like fog). The fog of oil gets drawn into the cylinders with the airflow and coats any surface it touches. I really don't think I've ever run across any other application than preserving automotive, diesel, and outboard engines for storage. Rick _ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2247 / Virus Database: 3629/6384 - Release Date: 12/02/13 image002.jpg___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List halyards again wire-to-rope
Let me reiterate the point Dwight is making about getting the length at the wire end right. You don't want the wire-to-rope splice going around the sheave at the top of the mast and you don't want it going around a mast-mounted winch. The splice is stiff and doesn't seem to have the same bend radius as wire or rope. Also, the splice can be larger in diameter than the rope itself and is not very compressible which can cause problems with existing sheaves, etc. Adding a furler and a halyard restrainer was enough to throw off the length of wire on my existing genoa halyard. With the main halyard you've got to consider reefing, etc. I've seen some old jibs with pendants at the head. I'm pretty sure one of the purposes of a pendant was to adjust the hoist to suit the wire-to-rope halyard. It goes without saying that you can always shorten the length of wire. Mark '73 CC 25 - Original Message -From: dwight dwight...@gmail.comTo: cnc-list@cnc-list.comSent: Mon, 02 Dec 2013 21:41:12 - (UTC)Subject: Re: Stus-List halyards again I never get the wire on my hands, so Idonrsquo;t worry about fish hookshellip;you need to adjust length at the wireend to make that righthellip;my boat was delivered with rope to wire about 40years agohellip;the sheaves donrsquo;t mind some new wirehellip;my lines donrsquo;tchew on each otherhellip;if they did I would change somethinghellip;if myhalyards get that close to the water that floating matters I am in big troublehellip;hydrophobic,I think steel wire is too Flipping end for end, really how many ofus do that, if itrsquo;s that bad on one end I just get a new one and withwire to rope that is about every 10-15 years for mehellip;I can handle that ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List halyards again
There are a lot of properties to look at when selecting the best material for our halyards. The most obvious are stretch and strength. Creep, abrasion resistance, ease of splicing, weight, and UV resistance are all important to. We should also consider how we use the halyard. A halyard for a roller furler jib is subject to a moderate load for a long period of time, so creep is a very important property. Since the halyard doesn't move very often, UV resistance is also very important. Stretch doesn't matter too much at all. A racer who changes sails for each leg shouldn't worry too much about creep, weight, stretch and strength will be his priority. Where it really gets interesting is the blended ropes. For my purposes, I want low stretch, durability and easy handling. I sail mostly with a roller furling jib and have lots of other things to spend my boat bucks on. I decided to change my halyards to VIC because it has a great blend of properties with the Vectran core and dacron braid cover along with a reasonable cost. James S/V Delaney 1976 CC 38 Oriental, NC - Original Message - From: dwight To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Sent: Monday, December 02, 2013 4:41 PM Subject: Re: Stus-List halyards again I never get the wire on my hands, so I don't worry about fish hooks.you need to adjust length at the wire end to make that right.my boat was delivered with rope to wire about 40 years ago.the sheaves don't mind some new wire.my lines don't chew on each other.if they did I would change something.if my halyards get that close to the water that floating matters I am in big trouble.hydrophobic, I think steel wire is too Flipping end for end, really how many of us do that, if it's that bad on one end I just get a new one and with wire to rope that is about every 10-15 years for me.I can handle that -- From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Josh Muckley Sent: December 2, 2013 1:44 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List halyards again Rope is lighter, DIY, easier on the hand, easier on the sheaves, rope doesn't get fish hooks and won't chew on the other lines as bad. Often times the rope will float depending on the material and may be hydrophobic. You can also flip rope end for end when it starts to get worn or simply freshen up the end. Just my 2 cents, Josh Muckley On Dec 2, 2013 11:32 AM, Joel Aronson joel.aron...@gmail.com wrote: David, The rope is stretching over the entire 100 foot -plus length. Halyard tension should be adjusted during a race - less downwind, more upwind. You would need to check the sheaves to see if they were changed. Rope compatible sheaves are more V shaped. Rope is more of a DIY project unless you have the tools. You still the need the rope tail. Dyneema is lighter than wire, but I doubt you would notice the difference on a 12,000 boat. Joel 35/3 Annapolis On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 11:01 AM, Hoyt, Mike mike.h...@impgroup.com wrote: David Have your ruled out slippage of the halyards in the clutches? We have this problem on a number of boats on which I sail. Mike -- From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of David Knecht Sent: Monday, December 02, 2013 11:58 AM To: CnC CnC discussion list Subject: Stus-List halyards again I was thinking about the recent discussions of new high tech halyards and have a question. The PO replaced my halyards with all rope, but I don't know what kind it is. I have noticed significant changes in sail shape over a day of sailing which I am presuming is stretch. Given the length of a rope halyard for a CC, the stretch factor seems like a serious issue. If you have 60' of line after uphaul, then 2-4% stretch becomes a significant amount of change in mainsail shape. Those are the kinds of stretch numbers I am seeing for lower tech line. I don't want to have to adjust the halyard during a race when shorthanded. One solution seem to be to use a low stretch line (spectra core, etc.) and the other is wire/rope. It looks like wire-rope is actually less expensive, so what is the down side? Are they less durable? If someone says weight, then I am going to ask for a calculation of the relative weight difference of wire vs rope given the huge mass of aluminum and dacron we all have sticking 40' off the deck. I am hard pressed to believe that small weight difference is significant for non-Americas cup sailors. Dave David Knecht Aries 1990 CC 34+ New London, CT ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com --
Re: Stus-List installing shaft zincs
Hi David, Someone suggested using TefGel to ensure a better electrical bond between the zinc and the prop shaft. If it is bonded well, the zincs might all wear evenly? Never tried that. Chuck Resolute 1990 CC 34R Atlantic City, NJ - Original Message - From: David Knecht davidakne...@gmail.com To: CnC CnC discussion list cnc-list@cnc-list.com Sent: Monday, December 2, 2013 9:49:04 AM Subject: Re: Stus-List installing shaft zincs Hi Chuck- I had exactly the same experience after a May launch. The shaft zincs looked fine at that time, so I left them and put a new bullet on the prop. They still look pretty good and the bullet was nearly gone when I hauled. It seems like we are getting differential erosion. What are you thinking the Tefgel would do? Dave On Dec 1, 2013, at 9:50 PM, Chuck S cscheaf...@comcast.net wrote: Wow. Installed the bullet shaped zinc last Spring but launched late, early July. Haulout in mid November revealed it was fully intact while the MaxProp cone was half gone. I intend to try the Tefgel next season. Chuck Resolute 1990 CC 34R Atlantic City, NJ - Original Message - From: TOM VINCENT tvince...@msn.com To: CC Forum cnc-list@cnc-list.com Sent: Thursday, November 28, 2013 10:09:45 AM Subject: Stus-List installing shaft zincs I have a martec folding prop and install their bullet shaped zinc each spring, they recommend the zinc be installed next to the strut within 1/4 to 3/8. The zinc lasts me the entire year, I sail on the Upper Chesapeake Bay which is fresh water. Tom Frolic II 36' cb Chesapeake City, MD ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com David Knecht, Ph.D. Professor and Head of Microscopy Facility Department of Molecular and Cell Biology U-3125 91 N. Eagleville Rd. University of Connecticut Storrs, CT 06269 860-486-2200 860-486-4331 (fax) ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List installing shaft zincs
Once you sand the shaft bright and apply the zinc, TefGel will protect the contact area from corrosion thus maintaining conductance between the shaft and zinc contact. If you don't have good conductance between the zinc and shaft at the onset, TefGel won't help. As in most boat work, preparation is 80% of the success of a job. The source/location of the current may cause one zinc to erode quicker than another but I can't convince myself it would be substantially different. BTW, for those with 1 inch and larger propeller shafts, you might consider Godfrey zincs. I like the design. They have a copper collar that stays on after the sacrificial zinc portion is gone. Unfortunately, Touche' has a 7/8 inch shaft and Godfrey doesn't make zincs that small. Dennis C. Touche' 35-1 #83 Mandeville, LA From: Chuck S cscheaf...@comcast.net To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Sent: Monday, December 2, 2013 6:48 PM Subject: Re: Stus-List installing shaft zincs Hi David, Someone suggested using TefGel to ensure a better electrical bond between the zinc and the prop shaft. If it is bonded well, the zincs might all wear evenly? Never tried that. Chuck Resolute 1990 CC 34R Atlantic City, NJ From: David Knecht davidakne...@gmail.com To: CnC CnC discussion list cnc-list@cnc-list.com Sent: Monday, December 2, 2013 9:49:04 AM Subject: Re: Stus-List installing shaft zincs Hi Chuck- I had exactly the same experience after a May launch. The shaft zincs looked fine at that time, so I left them and put a new bullet on the prop. They still look pretty good and the bullet was nearly gone when I hauled. It seems like we are getting differential erosion. What are you thinking the Tefgel would do? Dave On Dec 1, 2013, at 9:50 PM, Chuck S cscheaf...@comcast.net wrote: Wow. Installed the bullet shaped zinc last Spring but launched late, early July. Haulout in mid November revealed it was fully intact while the MaxProp cone was half gone. I intend to try the Tefgel next season. Chuck Resolute 1990 CC 34R Atlantic City, NJ From: TOM VINCENT tvince...@msn.com To: CC Forum cnc-list@cnc-list.com Sent: Thursday, November 28, 2013 10:09:45 AM Subject: Stus-List installing shaft zincs I have a martec folding prop and install their bullet shaped zinc each spring, they recommend the zinc be installed next to the strut within 1/4 to 3/8. The zinc lasts me the entire year, I sail on the Upper Chesapeake Bay which is fresh water. Tom Frolic II 36' cb Chesapeake City, MD ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com David Knecht, Ph.D. Professor and Head of Microscopy Facility Department of Molecular and Cell Biology U-3125 91 N. Eagleville Rd. University of Connecticut Storrs, CT 06269 860-486-2200 860-486-4331 (fax) ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Barient# 10 winch
Paul, Thanks for the response. The16 is a bit too big for the job and the space available but I will keep it in mind for any future applications. I will soon have a couple of Barient 22's on my hands that I am replacing with Lewmar ST 40 EVO winches. John From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Paul Baker Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2013 10:57 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Barient# 10 winch I have a pair of stainless Barient 16 I want to sell, bigger is always better :) On 13-11-30 05:31 PM, John Russo wrote: I am looking for a vintage 1984 or later Barient #10 winch to match the mainsheet winch on my 1984 CC 32 located on my cabin top port side. I intend to use the 2nd winch on the starboard cabin top aft of the traveler. I had a 2nd or 3rd hand Barient #10P there which did not do the job. It is for multipurpose use to be positioned aft of a Lewmar triple clutch for my main halyard , outhaul, and Vang. The #10 that I have on the Port cabin top measures 43/8 at the base and is 33/4 tall. It is greyish-Maroon in color and I assume Aluminum as the 1984 -32 spec calls that out. I have checked out Ebay and there are some #10's listed but none with the above dimensions or AL. Any suggestions as to where I can find one? Thanks John Arpeggio Norwalk CT ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List halyards again( 10 aloft = 1 on the rail )
I guess don't follow the adage of 10 aloft equals a man on the rail. While the mast to rail distance is a factor of 10, there is a sin(heel) factor for the aloft weight whereas it is a cos(heel) for the rail. That is, at zero heel any weight aloft is equal to zero on the rail. At 20 degrees heel, 10 lbs aloft is approximately 36 lbs on the rail. The heel would need to be 63 degrees before the 10 lbs aloft is equivalent to 200 lbs on the rail. Also, since all of the weight aloft is not at the head of the mast, it would seem that it is even less of an effect. Am I missing something? -- Paul Eugenio 1979 CC 29 mk1 S/V Johanna Rose Carrabelle, FL -•— Subject: Re: Stus-List halyards again Message-ID: CAD+F8b+evHRag9d=l2my2lfsvo_whsqwbvsja-wuvbszubb...@mail.gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Hi David, ... The weight aloft does make a differenceI don't remember the numbers but 10 lbs aloft equals one man on the rail.or something like that !! Now, bear in mind that I am a recovering racer and have carbon main and headsails. Makes a difference and, after all, isn't your boat as special to you as any AC vessel. Niall Buckley. CC41 Ardea ---___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List installing shaft zincs
Hey Dennis, Godfrey Zincs look interesting. Good idea and nice quality product, though the price is scary. A zinc for my 1 1/8 shaft costs $43 before shipping. http://store-bbba2.mybigcommerce.com/godfrey-premium-streamlined-zincs/ I'll stick w my $7 zincs from below, and try the TefGel trick: http://www.boatzincs.com/shaft1-sizes.html Chuck Resolute 1990 CC 34R Atlantic City, NJ - Original Message - From: Dennis C. capt...@yahoo.com To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Sent: Monday, December 2, 2013 8:08:07 PM Subject: Re: Stus-List installing shaft zincs Once you sand the shaft bright and apply the zinc, TefGel will protect the contact area from corrosion thus maintaining conductance between the shaft and zinc contact. If you don't have good conductance between the zinc and shaft at the onset, TefGel won't help. As in most boat work, preparation is 80% of the success of a job. The source/location of the current may cause one zinc to erode quicker than another but I can't convince myself it would be substantially different. BTW, for those with 1 inch and larger propeller shafts, you might consider Godfrey zincs. I like the design. They have a copper collar that stays on after the sacrificial zinc portion is gone. Unfortunately, Touche' has a 7/8 inch shaft and Godfrey doesn't make zincs that small. Dennis C. Touche' 35-1 #83 Mandeville, LA From: Chuck S cscheaf...@comcast.net To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Sent: Monday, December 2, 2013 6:48 PM Subject: Re: Stus-List installing shaft zincs Hi David, Someone suggested using TefGel to ensure a better electrical bond between the zinc and the prop shaft. If it is bonded well, the zincs might all wear evenly? Never tried that. Chuck Resolute 1990 CC 34R Atlantic City, NJ From: David Knecht davidakne...@gmail.com To: CnC CnC discussion list cnc-list@cnc-list.com Sent: Monday, December 2, 2013 9:49:04 AM Subject: Re: Stus-List installing shaft zincs Hi Chuck- I had exactly the same experience after a May launch. The shaft zincs looked fine at that time, so I left them and put a new bullet on the prop. They still look pretty good and the bullet was nearly gone when I hauled. It seems like we are getting differential erosion. What are you thinking the Tefgel would do? Dave On Dec 1, 2013, at 9:50 PM, Chuck S cscheaf...@comcast.net wrote: blockquote Wow. Installed the bullet shaped zinc last Spring but launched late, early July. Haulout in mid November revealed it was fully intact while the MaxProp cone was half gone. I intend to try the Tefgel next season. Chuck Resolute 1990 CC 34R Atlantic City, NJ From: TOM VINCENT tvince...@msn.com To: CC Forum cnc-list@cnc-list.com Sent: Thursday, November 28, 2013 10:09:45 AM Subject: Stus-List installing shaft zincs I have a martec folding prop and install their bullet shaped zinc each spring, they recommend the zinc be installed next to the strut within 1/4 to 3/8. The zinc lasts me the entire year, I sail on the Upper Chesapeake Bay which is fresh water. Tom Frolic II 36' cb Chesapeake City, MD ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com David Knecht, Ph.D. Professor and Head of Microscopy Facility Department of Molecular and Cell Biology U-3125 91 N. Eagleville Rd. University of Connecticut Storrs, CT 06269 860-486-2200 860-486-4331 (fax) ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com /blockquote ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Winterizing Touche'
Winterizing Ox: 1) Discharge lightning capacitors into battery bank. 2) Clean headliner while wondering what lurks between it and the deck. 3) Consider projects that I might get around to starting now that it's not so damned hot. 4) Top the tank with ethanol-free gas (Ox has an A4). 5) Go sailing Bob M Ox 33-1 Jax, FL On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 10:18 PM, Dennis C. capt...@yahoo.com wrote: Although I don't have a set procedure for winterizing Touche', here are some of the things I do: Check the expiration date on the sunscreen. If it will expire before spring, I remove it from the boat Switch the air conditioner from Cool to Heat Check expiration dates on mixers. If close to expiration, mix them with the appropriate liquor and drink Stow the blender. No frozen drinks until April Take the swim trunks used for cleaning the bottom home for the laundry Remove the Admiral's wide brimmed straw hat from the boat Remove my Panama Jack straw hat from the boat Stow flip flops and sandals Finally, go for a sail. As always, listers are welcome to go for a sail anytime they are in the New Orleans area. Next week looks nice, 70's to near 80. As the Cajuns say bring yourself on down and pass a good time. Dennis C. Touche' 35-1 #83 Mandeville, LA ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Barient# 10 winch
If you want to wait until spring, I will have 2 1975 Barient #10, they look ok although the chrome is a bit tired. I think the bearing on 1 of them is shot( noisy ) but pawl/springs are ok. I bought 2 Lewmar #8 to replace them. Sylvain CC27MkIII From: John Russo johnrussob...@optonline.net To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Sent: Monday, December 2, 2013 8:19 PM Subject: Re: Stus-List Barient# 10 winch Paul, Thanks for the response. The16 is a bit too big for the job and the space available but I will keep it in mind for any future applications. I will soon have a couple of Barient 22’s on my hands that I am replacing with Lewmar ST 40 EVO winches. John From:CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Paul Baker Sent: Saturday, November 30, 2013 10:57 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Barient# 10 winch I have a pair of stainless Barient 16 I want to sell, bigger is always better :) On 13-11-30 05:31 PM, John Russo wrote: I am looking for a vintage 1984 or later Barient #10 winch to match the mainsheet winch on my 1984 CC 32 located on my cabin top port side. I intend to use the 2nd winch on the starboard cabin top aft of the traveler. I had a 2nd or 3rd hand Barient #10P there which did not do the job. It is for multipurpose use to be positioned aft of a Lewmar triple clutch for my main halyard , outhaul, and Vang. The #10 that I have on the Port cabin top measures 43/8 at the base and is 33/4 tall. It is greyish-Maroon in color and I assume Aluminum as the 1984 -32 spec calls that out. I have checked out Ebay and there are some #10’s listed but none with the above dimensions or AL. Any suggestions as to where I can find one? Thanks John Arpeggio Norwalk CT ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Winterizing Touche'
Winterizing Gabriela 1) Try to figure out if it is going to snow or be 60 degrees - no forecast, map, radar, or local weather is ever correct in our part of the world. 2) Get tired of trying to figure out the weather and turn on the heater in the cabin and watch a football game 3) Check outside to see if it is still sunny 4) Curse the sleet that has now started to fall and open a mojito bottle - go back to game 5) Check the weather again and turn the heater off because its too warm, the sun is now shining. 6) Go out on the dock and scrape goose poop from the migrating geese that have settled in the marina because they believe they have flown far enough south. 7) Go sailing in 40 degree foggy weather, expecting it to snow, sleet, rain, or be 60 degrees and sunny with 20kt winds S.V. Gabriela Clarkston Wa. From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of bobmor99 . Sent: Monday, December 2, 2013 7:34 PM To: Dennis C.; cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Winterizing Touche' Winterizing Ox: 1) Discharge lightning capacitors into battery bank. 2) Clean headliner while wondering what lurks between it and the deck. 3) Consider projects that I might get around to starting now that it's not so damned hot. 4) Top the tank with ethanol-free gas (Ox has an A4). 5) Go sailing Bob M Ox 33-1 Jax, FL On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 10:18 PM, Dennis C. capt...@yahoo.com mailto:capt...@yahoo.com wrote: Although I don't have a set procedure for winterizing Touche', here are some of the things I do: Check the expiration date on the sunscreen. If it will expire before spring, I remove it from the boat Switch the air conditioner from Cool to Heat Check expiration dates on mixers. If close to expiration, mix them with the appropriate liquor and drink Stow the blender. No frozen drinks until April Take the swim trunks used for cleaning the bottom home for the laundry Remove the Admiral's wide brimmed straw hat from the boat Remove my Panama Jack straw hat from the boat Stow flip flops and sandals Finally, go for a sail. As always, listers are welcome to go for a sail anytime they are in the New Orleans area. Next week looks nice, 70's to near 80. As the Cajuns say bring yourself on down and pass a good time. Dennis C. Touche' 35-1 #83 Mandeville, LA ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com mailto:CnC-List@cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Stus-List Halyard Tension
Reading the tread about halyards, and an earlier post about furlers reminded me to ask a question of you racers out there: - I don’t race - only because there’s no-one racing on our lake. Although I have done a couple of Swiftsures. But I like passing boats and hate it when boats pass me! My boat has been pretty well upgraded with all rope halyards; new adjustable genoa cars; self tailers; new traveller; barbour haulers; and new Dacron sails 5 seasons ago. I sail with a 135% genoa on a furler. While sailing I adjust the genoa halyard regularly to move draft in the sail as the wind changes. (I do the same with the main too!) Now the question: Late this season I bought a new high tech, Kevlar, carbon, kryptonite, 135% genoa. I’m assuming I don’t adjust halyard tension with this new sail as I don’t think the sail will distort like a Dacron sail. Similarly, when I buy a matching main, main halyard and Cunningham adjustment will become redundant. Am I correct with this assumption? If this is correct, are there any trimming adjustments with these new high tech sails that I should become familiar with? Do you trim these newer sails any different than the old Dacron sails? What new techniques do I need to absorb? Thanks, sam :-) CC 26 Liquorice Ghost Lake Alberta.___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
Stus-List Stiff throttle and belt recommendations for Yamar 2GM20 on cnc 30 mkII
Our new to us 30-2 started sounding a bit hollow and throwing some stream out of exist the other night so I opened the water pump Sunday and found this: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BwhcX19YaPJ8N3E0cmJrYWwyTlE/edit?usp=docslist_api Only one of the fins appeared to be completely in tact So my questions are: (1) - What is the best toothed belt easily obtained as a replacement? (I read the Yanmar belts were less than stellar) (2) - How would you clean pullies before reassembly? (3) - 30 mk-2 ownersHow the h€ll does one tighten an alternator belt on the 2GM20 with the nut facing the back of the nut facing the stern and almost completely inaccessible. (4) - The throttle is painfully stiff to the point I almost need two hands to move it. Is there an easy lubrication point to get it moving again till I can replace the cable? Thanks everybody. Kevin s/v Osprey CC 30 mkII Pic from Thanksgiving: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BwhcX19YaPJ8QWtlbGE2NzhYRzQ/edit?usp=docslist_api Sent from my Tablet ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album http://www.cncphotoalbum.com CnC-List@cnc-list.com
