Stus-List Cracks in spreaders
We had the same problem with our J27 a few years ago. Since was on a trailer we would take mast down every year and then would store in my backyard on saw horses. Learned the hard way that water can find its way into the spreaders and freeze over winter. This resulted in cracks on the tapered edge of upper and lower port side spreaders. Hall spars will still manufacture te J27 spreaders but is over $200 each and a bit of wait time. In the end we found a machine shop that does aluminum welding. The seams were welded and the slight bulging removed. Then we sanded all four spreaders and painted with Interlux Brightsides. Have not had a problem since The takeaway from that experience is that spreaders are now always removed and stored inside and that forestay foils always stored with the groove facing downward when possible. In the previous two off seasons I went further and wrapped the entire mast in plastic although this year the mast on our current boat is stored indoors which is even better So a warning to those with masts stored horizontally outdoors over winter months. Remove spreaders! Mike Persistence Frers 33 Halifax From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Jim Watts via CnC-List Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2014 11:14 PM To: Bill Coleman; 1 CnC List Subject: Re: Stus-List CC 33-I Spreaders? Why are so many former owners idiots? What is it with these people? I assume the folks who have bought my boats have exactly the same questions. Jim Watts Paradigm Shift CC 35 Mk III Victoria, BC On 9 December 2014 at 15:20, Bill Coleman via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.commailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: I would just weld the cracks, I had a few little ones on mine, welded them up 10 years ago and no problems since . . . Bill Coleman CC 39 From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.commailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of David Paine via CnC-List Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2014 6:26 PM To: cnc-list@cnc-list.commailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Stus-List CC 33-I Spreaders? Hi All, I just took my mast down (original mast on a 1975 CC 33) for some work and was horrified to find that one of my spreaders is cracked in a not-good way. Ideally, I'd like to replace it -- does anyone know where such a part could be found? It's an airfoil shaped section that tapers toward the shrouds. Thanks, David ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.commailto:CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Stus-List Spreaders? now PO as idiots
I believe we were likely all former owner idiots at one time. My first boat was a 23 footer and I installed cabin lamps on bulkhead in vee berth. I used old appliance electric lamp cord (off an old household lamp) because I had no idea what should be used. I am certain the buyer of that boat likely cursed at the PO when his cabin lights ceased functioning and he had to rewire. If we were all born with 20 years of boat ownership experience I am certain there would be less boneheaded updates performed on these venerable old antiques we sail in … Mike From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Jim Watts via CnC-List Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2014 11:14 PM To: Bill Coleman; 1 CnC List Subject: Re: Stus-List CC 33-I Spreaders? Why are so many former owners idiots? What is it with these people? I assume the folks who have bought my boats have exactly the same questions. Jim Watts Paradigm Shift CC 35 Mk III Victoria, BC ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Spreaders? now PO as idiots
When you have had the same boat since 1977, the PO idiot ends up being YOU. Joe Della Barba Coquina CC 35 MK I From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2014 8:35 AM To: Jim Watts; cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Stus-List Spreaders? now PO as idiots I believe we were likely all former owner idiots at one time. My first boat was a 23 footer and I installed cabin lamps on bulkhead in vee berth. I used old appliance electric lamp cord (off an old household lamp) because I had no idea what should be used. I am certain the buyer of that boat likely cursed at the PO when his cabin lights ceased functioning and he had to rewire. If we were all born with 20 years of boat ownership experience I am certain there would be less boneheaded updates performed on these venerable old antiques we sail in … Mike From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Jim Watts via CnC-List Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2014 11:14 PM To: Bill Coleman; 1 CnC List Subject: Re: Stus-List CC 33-I Spreaders? Why are so many former owners idiots? What is it with these people? I assume the folks who have bought my boats have exactly the same questions. Jim Watts Paradigm Shift CC 35 Mk III Victoria, BC ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Spreaders? now PO as idiots
When I got my first boat in 1966 I noticed that all the boat bottoms were painted green or blue. So I painted my boat bottom green using green house paint. As the season wore on I noticed the boat getting slower and slower. When I pulled it out at the end of the season the bottom looked like a nest of seaweed, barnacles and mussels. Boat must have gained 100 pounds. It was a beautiful Lyman Lapstrake. Jerry JJ, CC 27 V. -Original Message- From: Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com To: cnc-list cnc-list@cnc-list.com Sent: Wed, Dec 10, 2014 8:47 am Subject: Re: Stus-List Spreaders? now PO as idiots When you have had the same boat since 1977, the PO idiot ends up being YOU. Joe Della Barba Coquina CC 35 MK I From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com]On Behalf Of Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2014 8:35 AM To: Jim Watts; cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Stus-List Spreaders? now PO as idiots I believe we were likely all former owner idiots at one time. My first boat was a 23 footer and I installed cabin lamps on bulkhead in vee berth. I used old appliance electric lamp cord (off an old household lamp) because I had no idea what should be used. I am certain the buyer of that boat likely cursed at the PO when his cabin lights ceased functioning and he had to rewire. If we were all born with 20 years of boat ownership experience I am certain there would be less boneheaded updates performed on these venerable old antiques we sail in … Mike From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com]On Behalf Of Jim Watts via CnC-List Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2014 11:14 PM To: Bill Coleman; 1 CnC List Subject: Re: Stus-List CC 33-I Spreaders? Why are so many former owners idiots? What is it with these people? I assume the folks who have bought my boats have exactly the same questions. Jim Watts Paradigm Shift CC 35 Mk III Victoria, BC ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Spreaders? now PO as idiots
Same applies to me but since 1975. Jack Fitzgerald CC 39 TM HONEY - US12788 Savannah, GA On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 8:47 AM, Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: When you have had the same boat since 1977, the PO idiot ends up being YOU. *Joe Della Barba* Coquina CC 35 MK I *From:* CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] *On Behalf Of *Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List *Sent:* Wednesday, December 10, 2014 8:35 AM *To:* Jim Watts; cnc-list@cnc-list.com *Subject:* Stus-List Spreaders? now PO as idiots I believe we were likely all former owner idiots at one time. My first boat was a 23 footer and I installed cabin lamps on bulkhead in vee berth. I used old appliance electric lamp cord (off an old household lamp) because I had no idea what should be used. I am certain the buyer of that boat likely cursed at the PO when his cabin lights ceased functioning and he had to rewire. If we were all born with 20 years of boat ownership experience I am certain there would be less boneheaded updates performed on these venerable old antiques we sail in … Mike *From:* CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] *On Behalf Of *Jim Watts via CnC-List *Sent:* Tuesday, December 09, 2014 11:14 PM *To:* Bill Coleman; 1 CnC List *Subject:* Re: Stus-List CC 33-I Spreaders? Why are so many former owners idiots? What is it with these people? I assume the folks who have bought my boats have exactly the same questions. Jim Watts Paradigm Shift CC 35 Mk III Victoria, BC ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Stus-List Quality Construction
At the club last week and noticed a fellow member tolling away on the work bench behind our spar shed...there is a big vice on it that makes it convenient to do some jobs. I walked over to say hello and discovered he was cutting out 'backing plates'.asked him where he was installing them. He said his deck cleats on the bow of his recently purchased Beneteau 49 (30,000 lbs.) did not have backing platesand he keeps his boat on a mooring. And he sold a CC 41 for a Bene 49.he said he is beginning to discover the difference in the overall quality of construction between the two boats. Thought I would pass that little piece of information along to anyone thinking of buying a quality built Bene! Rob Abbott AZURA CC 32 - 84 Halifax, N.S. ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Quality Construction
Rob, That's ridiculous! Are his thru-hulls gate valves without backing plates? I would not buy a new boat without a survey, and if I want a waterfront condo I'll buy one on land. Joel On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 9:10 AM, Robert Abbott via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: At the club last week and noticed a fellow member tolling away on the work bench behind our spar shed...there is a big vice on it that makes it convenient to do some jobs. I walked over to say hello and discovered he was cutting out 'backing plates'.asked him where he was installing them. He said his deck cleats on the bow of his recently purchased Beneteau 49 (30,000 lbs.) did not have backing platesand he keeps his boat on a mooring. And he sold a CC 41 for a Bene 49.he said he is beginning to discover the difference in the overall quality of construction between the two boats. Thought I would pass that little piece of information along to anyone thinking of buying a quality built Bene! Rob Abbott AZURA CC 32 - 84 Halifax, N.S. ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com -- Joel 301 541 8551 ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Quality Construction
yea, this is exactly what I am up against. we sold Lolita and the admiral would like a jeanneau. I can't bring myself to accommodate her. The more I learned about the Jeanneau the more I realized I don't think I would not be happy with the construction/build quality. We looked at a privately owed trade in. A 2006 Jeanneau 40 and many cabinet knobs were missing, some hatch shades were pulled right out of the headliner where they were wood screwed in. There was a locker in between 2 port side seats down below where the hing was ripped right out. Most of the joinery was just screwed together with wood screws. It appeared like it was done more by a homeowner as a weekend project than by a highly skilled craftsman... I just couldn't imagine that type of failure, so obvious, on a privately owned, 8 year old boat and feel comfortable with the rest of the construction. I do think older jeanneaus were better built before Bene got hold of them. (bene was better built vessel years ago as well) Then you look at the hardware, I had more substantial winches on our 33 Viking. My wife absolutely LOVES the layout of these things. They are voluminous, bright, they sit very high and have lots of port lights. These are all very nice for hanging at the dock but I I can't help but think how these attributes would effect safety and comfort if we got caught in a blow with some decent sized waves. How do you brace yourself? I can just imagine the shuttering all those face screwed panels would do pounding into a good sea. All this is based on gut reaction to what I have seen. which is really just boat show boarding and a couple of showings as well as some reading up on construction techniques. So we end up in a dilemma, Make the admiral happy and me uncomfortable about the boat or, make me happy and the admirals feels she is in a tight, dark wooden box. There really does not seem to be any middle ground in our price range... How do you guys feel about the tartan built CC 121 or 115. I've read they really like 15knot winds and above. I do think this is the one exception if the CC quality is there. They do have a nice bright interior and I think that would make the admiral happy. I really don't have a great deal of knowledge of them. They never really showed up at boat shows and there aren't too many available on the market. They may also be a bit out of our price range. Danny -- Original Message -- From: Robert Abbott via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Stus-List Quality Construction Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 10:10:46 -0400 At the club last week and noticed a fellow member tolling away on the work bench behind our spar shed...there is a big vice on it that makes it convenient to do some jobs. I walked over to say hello and discovered he was cutting out 'backing plates'.asked him where he was installing them. He said his deck cleats on the bow of his recently purchased Beneteau 49 (30,000 lbs.) did not have backing platesand he keeps his boat on a mooring. And he sold a CC 41 for a Bene 49.he said he is beginning to discover the difference in the overall quality of construction between the two boats. Thought I would pass that little piece of information along to anyone thinking of buying a quality built Bene! Rob Abbott AZURA CC 32 - 84 Halifax, N.S. ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Fuel
Using additives did improve my engine performance. When I bought the boat the engine was reluctant to start / smoked on the initial start of the weekend then always fired immediately for the reminder of the cruise. I was told that it was likely related to sticking injectors and adding fresh fuel + a good additive should help. After a recommendation I tried Seafoam which did not make any difference, I then tried Power Service Diesel Kleen http://powerservice.com/psp_product/diesel-kleen-cetane-boost/ and it's been continuously improving ever since. Now it fires right-up in the summer and usually starts on the 1st (Somewhat extended) cranking attempt in the winter. I used to have to fight 5 - 10 minutes with it to start in the winter. Since my tank holds 40 gallons and I only burn 15-20 gallons a year I don't fill much more than about 1/2 full and also use Biobor to keep fuel somewhat fresh / prevent the bugs from growing in the tank. I also buy my fuel at a busy gas station for freshness. Marine fuel is not available on our lake, none of the marinas sell diesel. Regards Francois Rivard 1990 34+ Take Five Lake Lanier, Ga___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Fuel
So Jake, your Suburban will smell like turkey with all the trimmings? Nice bonus! :^) Fred Street -- Minneapolis S/V Oceanis (1979 CC Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI :^( On Dec 9, 2014, at 7:04 PM, Jake Brodersen via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: After Thanksgiving I have four gallons of peanut oil which will be slowly run through the Suburban as well. ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Quality Construction
Danny, At least the Jenneau sails better than a Bene. Maybe try a Catalina 38 or 40, Bavaria,or Dehler. (Some of the Cat 36s were not put together well. I can't give you years, but bulkheads were not fully tabbed, cabinets were screwed, not bolted) IMHO, all are a set up in quality. Joel On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 9:51 AM, Danny Haughey via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: yea, this is exactly what I am up against. we sold Lolita and the admiral would like a jeanneau. I can't bring myself to accommodate her. The more I learned about the Jeanneau the more I realized I don't think I would not be happy with the construction/build quality. We looked at a privately owed trade in. A 2006 Jeanneau 40 and many cabinet knobs were missing, some hatch shades were pulled right out of the headliner where they were wood screwed in. There was a locker in between 2 port side seats down below where the hing was ripped right out. Most of the joinery was just screwed together with wood screws. It appeared like it was done more by a homeowner as a weekend project than by a highly skilled craftsman... I just couldn't imagine that type of failure, so obvious, on a privately owned, 8 year old boat and feel comfortable with the rest of the construction. I do think older jeanneaus were better built before Bene got hold of them. (bene was better built vessel years ago as well) Then you look at the hardware, I had more substantial winches on our 33 Viking. My wife absolutely LOVES the layout of these things. They are voluminous, bright, they sit very high and have lots of port lights. These are all very nice for hanging at the dock but I I can't help but think how these attributes would effect safety and comfort if we got caught in a blow with some decent sized waves. How do you brace yourself? I can just imagine the shuttering all those face screwed panels would do pounding into a good sea. All this is based on gut reaction to what I have seen. which is really just boat show boarding and a couple of showings as well as some reading up on construction techniques. So we end up in a dilemma, Make the admiral happy and me uncomfortable about the boat or, make me happy and the admirals feels she is in a tight, dark wooden box. There really does not seem to be any middle ground in our price range... How do you guys feel about the tartan built CC 121 or 115. I've read they really like 15knot winds and above. I do think this is the one exception if the CC quality is there. They do have a nice bright interior and I think that would make the admiral happy. I really don't have a great deal of knowledge of them. They never really showed up at boat shows and there aren't too many available on the market. They may also be a bit out of our price range. Danny -- Original Message -- From: Robert Abbott via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Stus-List Quality Construction Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 10:10:46 -0400 At the club last week and noticed a fellow member tolling away on the work bench behind our spar shed...there is a big vice on it that makes it convenient to do some jobs. I walked over to say hello and discovered he was cutting out 'backing plates'.asked him where he was installing them. He said his deck cleats on the bow of his recently purchased Beneteau 49 (30,000 lbs.) did not have backing platesand he keeps his boat on a mooring. And he sold a CC 41 for a Bene 49.he said he is beginning to discover the difference in the overall quality of construction between the two boats. Thought I would pass that little piece of information along to anyone thinking of buying a quality built Bene! Rob Abbott AZURA CC 32 - 84 Halifax, N.S. ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com -- Joel 301 541 8551 ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Stus-List Quality Construction
Danny: One more Bene story and then I will quit. A few years back, a club member had his 2 year old Bene 32 or 33 (not sure now the exact model) out for an afternoon sail. He said he had his main and a roller furler 135% working in about 10 knts true. As is often the case here, the breeze picks up later in the afternoon (3 pm ish) ...he said it hit about 16 knts true and he was feeling a bit overpowered going to weather. He was beginning to prepare to tack and broad reach home when he heard an unusual loud noise..he didn't know where it came from.he thought maybe something fell in the main cabinhis wife checked down below, nothing out of the usual. When he was tying up at his slip, he found the source of the noise. His bow stem plate was pulled approx. 1 inch up from the deck. Shortly after the repair, his Bene was put up for sale. Rob On 2014/12/10 10:51 AM, Danny Haughey wrote: yea, this is exactly what I am up against. we sold Lolita and the admiral would like a jeanneau. I can't bring myself to accommodate her. The more I learned about the Jeanneau the more I realized I don't think I would not be happy with the construction/build quality. We looked at a privately owed trade in. A 2006 Jeanneau 40 and many cabinet knobs were missing, some hatch shades were pulled right out of the headliner where they were wood screwed in. There was a locker in between 2 port side seats down below where the hing was ripped right out. Most of the joinery was just screwed together with wood screws. It appeared like it was done more by a homeowner as a weekend project than by a highly skilled craftsman... I just couldn't imagine that type of failure, so obvious, on a privately owned, 8 year old boat and feel comfortable with the rest of the construction. I do think older jeanneaus were better built before Bene got hold of them. (bene was better built vessel years ago as well) Then you look at the hardware, I had more substantial winches on our 33 Viking. My wife absolutely LOVES the layout of these things. They are voluminous, bright, they sit very high and have lots of port lights. These are all very nice for hanging at the dock but I I can't help but think how these attributes would effect safety and comfort if we got caught in a blow with some decent sized waves. How do you brace yourself? I can just imagine the shuttering all those face screwed panels would do pounding into a good sea. All this is based on gut reaction to what I have seen. which is really just boat show boarding and a couple of showings as well as some reading up on construction techniques. So we end up in a dilemma, Make the admiral happy and me uncomfortable about the boat or, make me happy and the admirals feels she is in a tight, dark wooden box. There really does not seem to be any middle ground in our price range... How do you guys feel about the tartan built CC 121 or 115. I've read they really like 15knot winds and above. I do think this is the one exception if the CC quality is there. They do have a nice bright interior and I think that would make the admiral happy. I really don't have a great deal of knowledge of them. They never really showed up at boat shows and there aren't too many available on the market. They may also be a bit out of our price range. Danny -- Original Message -- From: Robert Abbott via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Stus-List Quality Construction Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 10:10:46 -0400 At the club last week and noticed a fellow member tolling away on the work bench behind our spar shed...there is a big vice on it that makes it convenient to do some jobs. I walked over to say hello and discovered he was cutting out 'backing plates'.asked him where he was installing them. He said his deck cleats on the bow of his recently purchased Beneteau 49 (30,000 lbs.) did not have backing platesand he keeps his boat on a mooring. And he sold a CC 41 for a Bene 49.he said he is beginning to discover the difference in the overall quality of construction between the two boats. Thought I would pass that little piece of information along to anyone thinking of buying a quality built Bene! Rob Abbott AZURA CC 32 - 84 Halifax, N.S. ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Quality Construction
You should see what other people say about the new boats! Generally, the consensus is that nothing is built to the level of quality that you would expect in a boat for $150-$250 k (or higher). But this might make you feel better that you own a tried and true old boat. If nothing lese, all the problems that might have crept up have been already fixed. The flip side of it is that obviously manufacturers are building these boats the way they do, because these are the boats that sell. There is nothing wrong with the spacious interior, even at the cost of seaworthiness, if the boat never leaves the moorings. We are on a smallish body of water (you can sail up the river for about 30 nm), most of the boats in our Club are under 34 ft. But we had a 36 ft. Beneteau - the biggest boat in the Club (nothing against the company) for several years, whose owners never sailed her; rather, you could see them quite often cleaning it up. If this is your way of using a boat, suddenly your priorities on how it is built change dramatically. just a thought Marek -Original Message- From: Danny Haughey via CnC-List Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2014 9:51 AM To: robertabb...@eastlink.ca ; cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Quality Construction yea, this is exactly what I am up against. we sold Lolita and the admiral would like a jeanneau. I can't bring myself to accommodate her. The more I learned about the Jeanneau the more I realized I don't think I would not be happy with the construction/build quality. We looked at a privately owed trade in. A 2006 Jeanneau 40 and many cabinet knobs were missing, some hatch shades were pulled right out of the headliner where they were wood screwed in. There was a locker in between 2 port side seats down below where the hing was ripped right out. Most of the joinery was just screwed together with wood screws. It appeared like it was done more by a homeowner as a weekend project than by a highly skilled craftsman... I just couldn't imagine that type of failure, so obvious, on a privately owned, 8 year old boat and feel comfortable with the rest of the construction. I do think older jeanneaus were better built before Bene got hold of them. (bene was better built vessel years ago as well) Then you look at the hardware, I had more substantial winches on our 33 Viking. My wife absolutely LOVES the layout of these things. They are voluminous, bright, they sit very high and have lots of port lights. These are all very nice for hanging at the dock but I I can't help but think how these attributes would effect safety and comfort if we got caught in a blow with some decent sized waves. How do you brace yourself? I can just imagine the shuttering all those face screwed panels would do pounding into a good sea. All this is based on gut reaction to what I have seen. which is really just boat show boarding and a couple of showings as well as some reading up on construction techniques. So we end up in a dilemma, Make the admiral happy and me uncomfortable about the boat or, make me happy and the admirals feels she is in a tight, dark wooden box. There really does not seem to be any middle ground in our price range... How do you guys feel about the tartan built CC 121 or 115. I've read they really like 15knot winds and above. I do think this is the one exception if the CC quality is there. They do have a nice bright interior and I think that would make the admiral happy. I really don't have a great deal of knowledge of them. They never really showed up at boat shows and there aren't too many available on the market. They may also be a bit out of our price range. Danny -- Original Message -- From: Robert Abbott via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Stus-List Quality Construction Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 10:10:46 -0400 At the club last week and noticed a fellow member tolling away on the work bench behind our spar shed...there is a big vice on it that makes it convenient to do some jobs. I walked over to say hello and discovered he was cutting out 'backing plates'.asked him where he was installing them. He said his deck cleats on the bow of his recently purchased Beneteau 49 (30,000 lbs.) did not have backing platesand he keeps his boat on a mooring. And he sold a CC 41 for a Bene 49.he said he is beginning to discover the difference in the overall quality of construction between the two boats. Thought I would pass that little piece of information along to anyone thinking of buying a quality built Bene! Rob Abbott AZURA CC 32 - 84 Halifax, N.S. ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Quality Construction
Marek, There are dock queens everywhere, power and sail, all sorts of quality. Steve, the forces on your 27 are probably 1/10th of the forces on a 49. My 35/3 has backing plates on anything that is subject to a high load. I'm fortunate that if I ever want to upgrade the Admiral will consider how a boat sails and how well it is built before we get to cabin space. However, she wants a step-thru transom and aft centerline queen berth, (no longer than 44 feet due to my slip). My options will be limited (maybe a 37+?)! Someday! Joel On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 10:59 AM, Marek Dziedzic via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: You should see what other people say about the new boats! Generally, the consensus is that nothing is built to the level of quality that you would expect in a boat for $150-$250 k (or higher). But this might make you feel better that you own a tried and true old boat. If nothing lese, all the problems that might have crept up have been already fixed. The flip side of it is that obviously manufacturers are building these boats the way they do, because these are the boats that sell. There is nothing wrong with the spacious interior, even at the cost of seaworthiness, if the boat never leaves the moorings. We are on a smallish body of water (you can sail up the river for about 30 nm), most of the boats in our Club are under 34 ft. But we had a 36 ft. Beneteau - the biggest boat in the Club (nothing against the company) for several years, whose owners never sailed her; rather, you could see them quite often cleaning it up. If this is your way of using a boat, suddenly your priorities on how it is built change dramatically. just a thought Marek -Original Message- From: Danny Haughey via CnC-List Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2014 9:51 AM To: robertabb...@eastlink.ca ; cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Quality Construction yea, this is exactly what I am up against. we sold Lolita and the admiral would like a jeanneau. I can't bring myself to accommodate her. The more I learned about the Jeanneau the more I realized I don't think I would not be happy with the construction/build quality. We looked at a privately owed trade in. A 2006 Jeanneau 40 and many cabinet knobs were missing, some hatch shades were pulled right out of the headliner where they were wood screwed in. There was a locker in between 2 port side seats down below where the hing was ripped right out. Most of the joinery was just screwed together with wood screws. It appeared like it was done more by a homeowner as a weekend project than by a highly skilled craftsman... I just couldn't imagine that type of failure, so obvious, on a privately owned, 8 year old boat and feel comfortable with the rest of the construction. I do think older jeanneaus were better built before Bene got hold of them. (bene was better built vessel years ago as well) Then you look at the hardware, I had more substantial winches on our 33 Viking. My wife absolutely LOVES the layout of these things. They are voluminous, bright, they sit very high and have lots of port lights. These are all very nice for hanging at the dock but I I can't help but think how these attributes would effect safety and comfort if we got caught in a blow with some decent sized waves. How do you brace yourself? I can just imagine the shuttering all those face screwed panels would do pounding into a good sea. All this is based on gut reaction to what I have seen. which is really just boat show boarding and a couple of showings as well as some reading up on construction techniques. So we end up in a dilemma, Make the admiral happy and me uncomfortable about the boat or, make me happy and the admirals feels she is in a tight, dark wooden box. There really does not seem to be any middle ground in our price range... How do you guys feel about the tartan built CC 121 or 115. I've read they really like 15knot winds and above. I do think this is the one exception if the CC quality is there. They do have a nice bright interior and I think that would make the admiral happy. I really don't have a great deal of knowledge of them. They never really showed up at boat shows and there aren't too many available on the market. They may also be a bit out of our price range. Danny -- Original Message -- From: Robert Abbott via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Stus-List Quality Construction Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 10:10:46 -0400 At the club last week and noticed a fellow member tolling away on the work bench behind our spar shed...there is a big vice on it that makes it convenient to do some jobs. I walked over to say hello and discovered he was cutting out 'backing plates'.asked him where he was installing them. He said his deck cleats on the bow of his recently purchased Beneteau 49 (30,000 lbs.) did not have backing
Stus-List Quality Construction
Ok, so I'm biased but at the risk of stating the obvious.. How about a 34 +, 34/36, 37+, 37/40 ? French boats like large aft Stateroom / Lounge on the U settee in the salon - Large port lights / CC Quality As another bonus they smoke the compartively sized French boats on the racecourse pretty much regardless of the vintage. . -Francois Rivard 1990 34+ Take Five lake Lanier GA___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Quality Construction
My personal displeasure with Beneteaus begins with my personal beam. Chartered a 32 and had tight squeezes into the aft cabin and head. Same into the forward head on a chartered 43. No problem with my current CC 34. But as much as we love the CC brand, they are/were subject to cost generated construction shortcuts. Evidence the CC 30 mast step failures. Would $100 more in construction material have eliminated the failure problem? Similarly, my CC 27 Mk I had only the balsa sandwich core in the deck below the mast step and between the compression post. There were factory penetrations into the deck/balsa to secure the mast step. Solid glass under the mast would have eliminated the possibility of core rot in that critical location. Ed CC 34 Briar Patch New Orleans, La. On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 10:36 AM, Jean-Francois J Rivard via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: Ok, so I'm biased but at the risk of stating the obvious.. How about a 34+, 34/36, 37+, 37/40 ? French boats like large aft Stateroom / Lounge on the U settee in the salon - Large port lights / CC Quality As another bonus they smoke the compartively sized French boats on the racecourse pretty much regardless of the vintage. . -Francois Rivard 1990 34+ Take Five lake Lanier GA ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Quality Construction
On the 121, etc - The fiberglass build quality, sans some initial problems on the epoxy hulls, is first rate. Hardware is first rate. Design is excellent. Woodwork does not compare to the original CC. They sail like a bat out of hell. Not sure where the comment about 15 knots and above comes from. My 121 loves light air. John Sent from my iPad On Dec 10, 2014, at 9:51 AM, Danny Haughey via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: yea, this is exactly what I am up against. we sold Lolita and the admiral would like a jeanneau. I can't bring myself to accommodate her. The more I learned about the Jeanneau the more I realized I don't think I would not be happy with the construction/build quality. We looked at a privately owed trade in. A 2006 Jeanneau 40 and many cabinet knobs were missing, some hatch shades were pulled right out of the headliner where they were wood screwed in. There was a locker in between 2 port side seats down below where the hing was ripped right out. Most of the joinery was just screwed together with wood screws. It appeared like it was done more by a homeowner as a weekend project than by a highly skilled craftsman... I just couldn't imagine that type of failure, so obvious, on a privately owned, 8 year old boat and feel comfortable with the rest of the construction. I do think older jeanneaus were better built before Bene got hold of them. (bene was better built vessel years ago as well) Then you look at the hardware, I had more substantial winches on our 33 Viking. My wife absolutely LOVES the layout of these things. They are voluminous, bright, they sit very high and have lots of port lights. These are all very nice for hanging at the dock but I I can't help but think how these attributes would effect safety and comfort if we got caught in a blow with some decent sized waves. How do you brace yourself? I can just imagine the shuttering all those face screwed panels would do pounding into a good sea. All this is based on gut reaction to what I have seen. which is really just boat show boarding and a couple of showings as well as some reading up on construction techniques. So we end up in a dilemma, Make the admiral happy and me uncomfortable about the boat or, make me happy and the admirals feels she is in a tight, dark wooden box. There really does not seem to be any middle ground in our price range... How do you guys feel about the tartan built CC 121 or 115. I've read they really like 15knot winds and above. I do think this is the one exception if the CC quality is there. They do have a nice bright interior and I think that would make the admiral happy. I really don't have a great deal of knowledge of them. They never really showed up at boat shows and there aren't too many available on the market. They may also be a bit out of our price range. Danny -- Original Message -- From: Robert Abbott via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Stus-List Quality Construction Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 10:10:46 -0400 At the club last week and noticed a fellow member tolling away on the work bench behind our spar shed...there is a big vice on it that makes it convenient to do some jobs. I walked over to say hello and discovered he was cutting out 'backing plates'.asked him where he was installing them. He said his deck cleats on the bow of his recently purchased Beneteau 49 (30,000 lbs.) did not have backing platesand he keeps his boat on a mooring. And he sold a CC 41 for a Bene 49.he said he is beginning to discover the difference in the overall quality of construction between the two boats. Thought I would pass that little piece of information along to anyone thinking of buying a quality built Bene! Rob Abbott AZURA CC 32 - 84 Halifax, N.S. ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Quality Construction
Friends boats; 1) BendyToe 423...multiple successful trips to Bermuda. 2) Bendy Toe 373. Broke a boom going round the bouys. I think construction quality is model dependent David F. Risch. Please excuse brevity and possible typos...sent from my mobile device. div Original message /divdivFrom: John Pennie via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com /divdivDate:12/10/2014 12:37 PM (GMT-05:00) /divdivTo: Danny Haughey djhaug...@juno.com, cnc-list@cnc-list.com /divdivSubject: Re: Stus-List Quality Construction /divdiv /div On the 121, etc - The fiberglass build quality, sans some initial problems on the epoxy hulls, is first rate. Hardware is first rate. Design is excellent. Woodwork does not compare to the original CC. They sail like a bat out of hell. Not sure where the comment about 15 knots and above comes from. My 121 loves light air. John Sent from my iPad On Dec 10, 2014, at 9:51 AM, Danny Haughey via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: yea, this is exactly what I am up against. we sold Lolita and the admiral would like a jeanneau. I can't bring myself to accommodate her. The more I learned about the Jeanneau the more I realized I don't think I would not be happy with the construction/build quality. We looked at a privately owed trade in. A 2006 Jeanneau 40 and many cabinet knobs were missing, some hatch shades were pulled right out of the headliner where they were wood screwed in. There was a locker in between 2 port side seats down below where the hing was ripped right out. Most of the joinery was just screwed together with wood screws. It appeared like it was done more by a homeowner as a weekend project than by a highly skilled craftsman... I just couldn't imagine that type of failure, so obvious, on a privately owned, 8 year old boat and feel comfortable with the rest of the construction. I do think older jeanneaus were better built before Bene got hold of them. (bene was better built vessel years ago as well) Then you look at the hardware, I had more substantial winches on our 33 Viking. My wife absolutely LOVES the layout of these things. They are voluminous, bright, they sit very high and have lots of port lights. These are all very nice for hanging at the dock but I I can't help but think how these attributes would effect safety and comfort if we got caught in a blow with some decent sized waves. How do you brace yourself? I can just imagine the shuttering all those face screwed panels would do pounding into a good sea. All this is based on gut reaction to what I have seen. which is really just boat show boarding and a couple of showings as well as some reading up on construction techniques. So we end up in a dilemma, Make the admiral happy and me uncomfortable about the boat or, make me happy and the admirals feels she is in a tight, dark wooden box. There really does not seem to be any middle ground in our price range... How do you guys feel about the tartan built CC 121 or 115. I've read they really like 15knot winds and above. I do think this is the one exception if the CC quality is there. They do have a nice bright interior and I think that would make the admiral happy. I really don't have a great deal of knowledge of them. They never really showed up at boat shows and there aren't too many available on the market. They may also be a bit out of our price range. Danny -- Original Message -- From: Robert Abbott via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Stus-List Quality Construction Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 10:10:46 -0400 At the club last week and noticed a fellow member tolling away on the work bench behind our spar shed...there is a big vice on it that makes it convenient to do some jobs. I walked over to say hello and discovered he was cutting out 'backing plates'.asked him where he was installing them. He said his deck cleats on the bow of his recently purchased Beneteau 49 (30,000 lbs.) did not have backing platesand he keeps his boat on a mooring. And he sold a CC 41 for a Bene 49.he said he is beginning to discover the difference in the overall quality of construction between the two boats. Thought I would pass that little piece of information along to anyone thinking of buying a quality built Bene! Rob Abbott AZURA CC 32 - 84 Halifax, N.S. ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of page at:
Re: Stus-List Quality Construction
David, I agree, but the lows are low and the highs are not that high. At least on the First series boats the hardware is beefed up over the comparably sized cruisers. Of course, they are still in business while Sabre is now a powerboat company. Price matters! There is an active thread on Sailnet about a guy buying a new Bene 38. He is not happy! Joel On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 1:09 PM, davidrisch75 via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: Friends boats; 1) BendyToe 423...multiple successful trips to Bermuda. 2) Bendy Toe 373. Broke a boom going round the bouys. I think construction quality is model dependent David F. Risch. Please excuse brevity and possible typos...sent from my mobile device. Original message From: John Pennie via CnC-List Date:12/10/2014 12:37 PM (GMT-05:00) To: Danny Haughey , cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Quality Construction On the 121, etc - The fiberglass build quality, sans some initial problems on the epoxy hulls, is first rate. Hardware is first rate. Design is excellent. Woodwork does not compare to the original CC. They sail like a bat out of hell. Not sure where the comment about 15 knots and above comes from. My 121 loves light air. John Sent from my iPad On Dec 10, 2014, at 9:51 AM, Danny Haughey via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: yea, this is exactly what I am up against. we sold Lolita and the admiral would like a jeanneau. I can't bring myself to accommodate her. The more I learned about the Jeanneau the more I realized I don't think I would not be happy with the construction/build quality. We looked at a privately owed trade in. A 2006 Jeanneau 40 and many cabinet knobs were missing, some hatch shades were pulled right out of the headliner where they were wood screwed in. There was a locker in between 2 port side seats down below where the hing was ripped right out. Most of the joinery was just screwed together with wood screws. It appeared like it was done more by a homeowner as a weekend project than by a highly skilled craftsman... I just couldn't imagine that type of failure, so obvious, on a privately owned, 8 year old boat and feel comfortable with the rest of the construction. I do think older jeanneaus were better built before Bene got hold of them. (bene was better built vessel years ago as well) Then you look at the hardware, I had more substantial winches on our 33 Viking. My wife absolutely LOVES the layout of these things. They are voluminous, bright, they sit very high and have lots of port lights. These are all very nice for hanging at the dock but I I can't help but think how these attributes would effect safety and comfort if we got caught in a blow with some decent sized waves. How do you brace yourself? I can just imagine the shuttering all those face screwed panels would do pounding into a good sea. All this is based on gut reaction to what I have seen. which is really just boat show boarding and a couple of showings as well as some reading up on construction techniques. So we end up in a dilemma, Make the admiral happy and me uncomfortable about the boat or, make me happy and the admirals feels she is in a tight, dark wooden box. There really does not seem to be any middle ground in our price range... How do you guys feel about the tartan built CC 121 or 115. I've read they really like 15knot winds and above. I do think this is the one exception if the CC quality is there. They do have a nice bright interior and I think that would make the admiral happy. I really don't have a great deal of knowledge of them. They never really showed up at boat shows and there aren't too many available on the market. They may also be a bit out of our price range. Danny -- Original Message -- From: Robert Abbott via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Stus-List Quality Construction Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 10:10:46 -0400 At the club last week and noticed a fellow member tolling away on the work bench behind our spar shed...there is a big vice on it that makes it convenient to do some jobs. I walked over to say hello and discovered he was cutting out 'backing plates'.asked him where he was installing them. He said his deck cleats on the bow of his recently purchased Beneteau 49 (30,000 lbs.) did not have backing platesand he keeps his boat on a mooring. And he sold a CC 41 for a Bene 49.he said he is beginning to discover the difference in the overall quality of construction between the two boats. Thought I would pass that little piece of information along to anyone thinking of buying a quality built Bene! Rob Abbott AZURA CC 32 - 84 Halifax, N.S. ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album Email address:
Re: Stus-List Quality Construction
I chatted with a guy who owns a Bene 393. He has circumnavigated twice with it. for whatever can be taken from that... Danny -- Original Message -- From: Joel Aronson via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com To: davidrisch75 davidrisc...@msn.com, cnc-list@cnc-list.com cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Quality Construction Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 13:17:03 -0500 David, I agree, but the lows are low and the highs are not that high. At least on the First series boats the hardware is beefed up over the comparably sized cruisers. Of course, they are still in business while Sabre is now a powerboat company. Price matters! There is an active thread on Sailnet about a guy buying a new Bene 38. He is not happy! Joel On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 1:09 PM, davidrisch75 via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: Friends boats; 1) BendyToe 423...multiple successful trips to Bermuda. 2) Bendy Toe 373. Broke a boom going round the bouys. I think construction quality is model dependentDavid F. Risch. Please excuse brevity and possible typos...sent from my mobile device. Original message From: John Pennie via CnC-ListDate:12/10/2014 12:37 PM (GMT-05:00)To: Danny Haughey , cnc-list@cnc-list.comSubject: Re: Stus-List Quality Construction On the 121, etc - The fiberglass build quality, sans some initial problems on the epoxy hulls, is first rate. Hardware is first rate. Design is excellent. Woodwork does not compare to the original CC. They sail like a bat out of hell. Not sure where the comment about 15 knots and above comes from. My 121 loves light air. John Sent from my iPad On Dec 10, 2014, at 9:51 AM, Danny Haughey via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: yea, this is exactly what I am up against. we sold Lolita and the admiral would like a jeanneau. I can't bring myself to accommodate her. The more I learned about the Jeanneau the more I realized I don't think I would not be happy with the construction/build quality. We looked at a privately owed trade in. A 2006 Jeanneau 40 and many cabinet knobs were missing, some hatch shades were pulled right out of the headliner where they were wood screwed in. There was a locker in between 2 port side seats down below where the hing was ripped right out. Most of the joinery was just screwed together with wood screws. It appeared like it was done more by a homeowner as a weekend project than by a highly skilled craftsman... I just couldn't imagine that type of failure, so obvious, on a privately owned, 8 year old boat and feel comfortable with the rest of the construction. I do think older jeanneaus were better built before Bene got hold of them. (bene was better built vessel years ago as well) Then you look at the hardware, I had more substantial winches on our 33 Viking. My wife absolutely LOVES the layout of these things. They are voluminous, bright, they sit very high and have lots of port lights. These are all very nice for hanging at the dock but I I can't help but think how these attributes would effect safety and comfort if we got caught in a blow with some decent sized waves. How do you brace yourself? I can just imagine the shuttering all those face screwed panels would do pounding into a good sea. All this is based on gut reaction to what I have seen. which is really just boat show boarding and a couple of showings as well as some reading up on construction techniques. So we end up in a dilemma, Make the admiral happy and me uncomfortable about the boat or, make me happy and the admirals feels she is in a tight, dark wooden box. There really does not seem to be any middle ground in our price range... How do you guys feel about the tartan built CC 121 or 115. I've read they really like 15knot winds and above. I do think this is the one exception if the CC quality is there. They do have a nice bright interior and I think that would make the admiral happy. I really don't have a great deal of knowledge of them. They never really showed up at boat shows and there aren't too many available on the market. They may also be a bit out of our price range. Danny -- Original Message -- From: Robert Abbott via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Stus-List Quality Construction Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 10:10:46 -0400 At the club last week and noticed a fellow member tolling away on the work bench behind our spar shed...there is a big vice on it that makes it convenient to do some jobs. I walked over to say hello and discovered he was cutting out 'backing plates'.asked him where he was installing them. He said his deck cleats on the bow of his recently purchased Beneteau 49 (30,000 lbs.) did not have backing platesand he keeps his boat on a mooring.
Re: Stus-List Quality Construction
I sail (race) a lot on a CC 115 for the past five years. They are not awful in light air and do sail well in all conditions. However at 15-18 knots they win races. These boats are upwind monsters in 18 knots with weight on the rail. Mike Crew on Koobalibra CC 115 59115 -Original Message- From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of John Pennie via CnC-List Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2014 1:37 PM To: Danny Haughey; cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List Quality Construction On the 121, etc - The fiberglass build quality, sans some initial problems on the epoxy hulls, is first rate. Hardware is first rate. Design is excellent. Woodwork does not compare to the original CC. They sail like a bat out of hell. Not sure where the comment about 15 knots and above comes from. My 121 loves light air. John Sent from my iPad On Dec 10, 2014, at 9:51 AM, Danny Haughey via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: yea, this is exactly what I am up against. we sold Lolita and the admiral would like a jeanneau. I can't bring myself to accommodate her. The more I learned about the Jeanneau the more I realized I don't think I would not be happy with the construction/build quality. We looked at a privately owed trade in. A 2006 Jeanneau 40 and many cabinet knobs were missing, some hatch shades were pulled right out of the headliner where they were wood screwed in. There was a locker in between 2 port side seats down below where the hing was ripped right out. Most of the joinery was just screwed together with wood screws. It appeared like it was done more by a homeowner as a weekend project than by a highly skilled craftsman... I just couldn't imagine that type of failure, so obvious, on a privately owned, 8 year old boat and feel comfortable with the rest of the construction. I do think older jeanneaus were better built before Bene got hold of them. (bene was better built vessel years ago as well) Then you look at the hardware, I had more substantial winches on our 33 Viking. My wife absolutely LOVES the layout of these things. They are voluminous, bright, they sit very high and have lots of port lights. These are all very nice for hanging at the dock but I I can't help but think how these attributes would effect safety and comfort if we got caught in a blow with some decent sized waves. How do you brace yourself? I can just imagine the shuttering all those face screwed panels would do pounding into a good sea. All this is based on gut reaction to what I have seen. which is really just boat show boarding and a couple of showings as well as some reading up on construction techniques. So we end up in a dilemma, Make the admiral happy and me uncomfortable about the boat or, make me happy and the admirals feels she is in a tight, dark wooden box. There really does not seem to be any middle ground in our price range... How do you guys feel about the tartan built CC 121 or 115. I've read they really like 15knot winds and above. I do think this is the one exception if the CC quality is there. They do have a nice bright interior and I think that would make the admiral happy. I really don't have a great deal of knowledge of them. They never really showed up at boat shows and there aren't too many available on the market. They may also be a bit out of our price range. Danny -- Original Message -- From: Robert Abbott via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Stus-List Quality Construction Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2014 10:10:46 -0400 At the club last week and noticed a fellow member tolling away on the work bench behind our spar shed...there is a big vice on it that makes it convenient to do some jobs. I walked over to say hello and discovered he was cutting out 'backing plates'.asked him where he was installing them. He said his deck cleats on the bow of his recently purchased Beneteau 49 (30,000 lbs.) did not have backing platesand he keeps his boat on a mooring. And he sold a CC 41 for a Bene 49.he said he is beginning to discover the difference in the overall quality of construction between the two boats. Thought I would pass that little piece of information along to anyone thinking of buying a quality built Bene! Rob Abbott AZURA CC 32 - 84 Halifax, N.S. ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of page at:
Re: Stus-List Spreaders? now PO as idiots
Joe wrote: When you have had the same boat since 1977, the PO idiot ends up being YOU. Tell me about it! The other thing is cruising repairs when proper materials aren't available, or when it's 105F and one isn't thinking very well and one has to get the job done right now. There are quite a few things on this boat that I know a new owner would just think 'Why the heck did that idiot do that' and the answer is 'Because I had to...' And there are those installations for which I did a 20 year job, thinking that by the time it breaks I'll be dead. Hmmm. I suppose I should be thankful... Wal ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Quality Construction
You have to know your boat. When I first considered buying Stella Blue I asked this list (on Sailnet at the time) whether it could cross an ocean. No one knew me then, and the reply I remember was It's the sailor, not the boat. Wal Danny wrote: I chatted with a guy who owns a Bene 393. He has circumnavigated twice with it. for whatever can be taken from that... Danny ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Quality Construction
Wal, True, but if they used a Bene for All is Lost, it would have been a short, not a feature length film! Joel On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 3:55 PM, Wally Bryant via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: You have to know your boat. When I first considered buying Stella Blue I asked this list (on Sailnet at the time) whether it could cross an ocean. No one knew me then, and the reply I remember was It's the sailor, not the boat. Wal Danny wrote: I chatted with a guy who owns a Bene 393. He has circumnavigated twice with it. for whatever can be taken from that... Danny ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com -- Joel 301 541 8551 ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Quality Construction
Now that we know you the answer is NO!. :) Dennis C. Touche' 35-1 #83 Mandeville, LA Wally Bryant via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: You have to know your boat. *When I first considered buying Stella Blue I asked this list (on Sailnet at the time) whether it could cross an ocean. * No one knew me then, and the reply I remember was It's the sailor, not the boat. Wal ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List water leaks.
Several people have given me useful feed-back in dealing with my leaks, this is a bit of an up-date that might be helpful to someone else, and a question or two. I used a hand-screwdriver and tightened all the toe-rail bolts, hand-tight. At a guess something like 80% tightened up in a quarter turn, the rest did not. Since most of the nuts on the bolts are inaccessible, except in the vee berth, I think there isn't much I can do about that. And since some grey play-dough type material has been coming out in the vee berth area for several years, I'm assuming that that is the butyl compound that has been mentioned and I don’t want to squeeze out any more. I want to try the Captain Tolley Creeping Crack liquid but since the toe rail seems to be an inverted “T” i.e. vertical piece containing the slots teeing into a horizontal piece that meets the deck, the only gap is horizontal on the in-board and out-board parts of the toe-rail. I wonder if the Tolley stuff will work its way into a horizontal crack? Secondly I assume that everything should be dry for it to work. I don’t think applying heat from e.g. a hair-dryer will dry it out properly in rainy weather? If this were an expensive boat, and made later than 1983, and if I were younger than 75, and could afford it, I suppose that a yard might take off the toe-rail and re-bed it, but since none of those conditions apply, this won’t be happening! Interestingly the water in the bilge has always been fresh until I took her out recently in 20 knots gusting 25 and maybe 30, so we were heeling a lot, and when we came back in there was new water in the bilge and it tasted slightly salty. This suggests that a primary source of the leaks is the toe-rail. Patrick Wesley S/V The Boat C C 24 MK II Sidney BC Canada___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List water leaks.
Patrick, The Captains Tolley's will definitely work in the horizontal joint between toe rail and deck. That's exactly where I apply it on Touche'. Because it is a thin, low viscosity liquid, it will penetrate through capillary action into that joint. The liquid carrier will then evaporate leaving the rubber like sealant. Coats can be applied every half hour to hour depending on temperature. You made need to apply it over a couple days then give it a maintenance application each spring but it will reduce or eliminate leakage at the toe rail. You said you tightened the toe rail fasteners with a screwdriver. A better practice is to hold the fasteners immobile with a screwdriver or square drive from the top and tighten the nuts from beneath. Rotating the fasteners increases the potential of breaking the seal. If I want to tighten the nuts from beneath, I use a 1/4 inch drive handle with a flexible drive extension and the appropriate size socket. Dennis C. Touche' 35-1 #83 Mandeville, LA On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 5:55 PM, Patrick Wesley via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: Several people have given me useful feed-back in dealing with my leaks, this is a bit of an up-date that might be helpful to someone else, and a question or two. I used a hand-screwdriver and tightened all the toe-rail bolts, hand-tight. At a guess something like 80% tightened up in a quarter turn, the rest did not. Since most of the nuts on the bolts are inaccessible, except in the vee berth, I think there isn't much I can do about that. And since some grey play-dough type material has been coming out in the vee berth area for several years, I'm assuming that that is the butyl compound that has been mentioned and I don’t want to squeeze out any more. I want to try the Captain Tolley Creeping Crack liquid but since the toe rail seems to be an inverted “T” i.e. vertical piece containing the slots teeing into a horizontal piece that meets the deck, the only gap is horizontal on the in-board and out-board parts of the toe-rail. I wonder if the Tolley stuff will work its way into a horizontal crack? Secondly I assume that everything should be dry for it to work. I don’t think applying heat from e.g. a hair-dryer will dry it out properly in rainy weather? If this were an expensive boat, and made later than 1983, and if I were younger than 75, and could afford it, I suppose that a yard might take off the toe-rail and re-bed it, but since none of those conditions apply, this won’t be happening! Interestingly the water in the bilge has always been fresh until I took her out recently in 20 knots gusting 25 and maybe 30, so we were heeling a lot, and when we came back in there was new water in the bilge and it tasted slightly salty. This suggests that a primary source of the leaks is the toe-rail. *Patrick Wesley* *S/V The Boat C C 24 MK II* *Sidney BC Canada* ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List water leaks.
Thanks, Dennis, I hadn't appreciated the question of breaking the seal, but I can only see maybe 10% of the bolts (in the vee berth) and I wouldn't fit in the area under the cockpit; all other bolts i.e maybe 50% of them are not visible. Any comment on wetness/dryness when applying the Tolley? Good to know that it works horizontally. Patrick On Dec 10, 2014, at 04:45 PM, Dennis C. capt...@gmail.com wrote: Patrick, The Captains Tolley's will definitely work in the horizontal joint between toe rail and deck. That's exactly where I apply it on Touche'. Because it is a thin, low viscosity liquid, it will penetrate through capillary action into that joint. The liquid carrier will then evaporate leaving the rubber like sealant. Coats can be applied every half hour to hour depending on temperature. You made need to apply it over a couple days then give it a maintenance application each spring but it will reduce or eliminate leakage at the toe rail. You said you tightened the toe rail fasteners with a screwdriver. A better practice is to hold the fasteners immobile with a screwdriver or square drive from the top and tighten the nuts from beneath. Rotating the fasteners increases the potential of breaking the seal. If I want to tighten the nuts from beneath, I use a 1/4 inch drive handle with a flexible drive extension and the appropriate size socket. Dennis C. Touche' 35-1 #83 Mandeville, LA On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 5:55 PM, Patrick Wesley via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: Several people have given me useful feed-back in dealing with my leaks, this is a bit of an up-date that might be helpful to someone else, and a question or two. I used a hand-screwdriver and tightened all the toe-rail bolts, hand-tight. At a guess something like 80% tightened up in a quarter turn, the rest did not. Since most of the nuts on the bolts are inaccessible, except in the vee berth, I think there isn't much I can do about that. And since some grey play-dough type material has been coming out in the vee berth area for several years, I'm assuming that that is the butyl compound that has been mentioned and I don’t want to squeeze out any more. I want to try the Captain Tolley Creeping Crack liquid but since the toe rail seems to be an inverted “T” i.e. vertical piece containing the slots teeing into a horizontal piece that meets the deck, the only gap is horizontal on the in-board and out-board parts of the toe-rail. I wonder if the Tolley stuff will work its way into a horizontal crack? Secondly I assume that everything should be dry for it to work. I don’t think applying heat from e.g. a hair-dryer will dry it out properly in rainy weather? If this were an expensive boat, and made later than 1983, and if I were younger than 75, and could afford it, I suppose that a yard might take off the toe-rail and re-bed it, but since none of those conditions apply, this won’t be happening! Interestingly the water in the bilge has always been fresh until I took her out recently in 20 knots gusting 25 and maybe 30, so we were heeling a lot, and when we came back in there was new water in the bilge and it tasted slightly salty. This suggests that a primary source of the leaks is the toe-rail. Patrick Wesley S/V The Boat C C 24 MK II Sidney BC Canada ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Stus-List CC 32 Genoa Track Specs
I am planning to install Garhauer block system for line adjustable genoa trim track. I have 1985 CC 32 with original track, but it is a little hard to get to at this time of year to measure. Does anyone have the specs for this track so I can order the new Garhauer cars for this existing track? i.e. width, thickness, Merriman H-track? Thanks, Steve ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List CC 32 Genoa Track Specs
Better to sent the old track. Built right to spec. On Dec 10, 2014 3:29 PM, Steve Mallett via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: I am planning to install Garhauer block system for line adjustable genoa trim track. I have 1985 CC 32 with original track, but it is a little hard to get to at this time of year to measure. Does anyone have the specs for this track so I can order the new Garhauer cars for this existing track? i.e. width, thickness, Merriman H-track? Thanks, Steve ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Stus-List Diesel Fuel
I know this topic was discussed to great lengths, but to anyone who is interested, here is the article I read that led to my question of marine diesel fuel versus regular diesel fuel. Not being a chemist or material scientist, and to any of those in these professions that might read this, to me, it seems to be a matter of sulfur content. http://www.epa.gov/otaq/regs/nonroad/marine/ci/fr/dfuelrpt.pdf Rob Abbott AZURA CC 32 -84 Halifax, N.S. ___ This List is provided by the CC Photo Album Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List Diesel Fuel
I did not read the entire pdf, but I think it is out of date. That document is from 1999, and subsequently, the government redefined the quality of diesel fuel. So from reading the sites below, it looks to me like the marine (small engine) fuel and road fuel are the same (at least have the same sulfur content). Dave https://www.dieselnet.com/standards/us/fuel.php http://www.epa.gov/OTAQ/fuels/dieselfuels/index.htm The cleaner diesel fuel program significantly reduces sulfur content, creating immediate health benefits, and allowing engine manufacturers to begin using advanced emissions control systems that further reduce harmful emissions. The diesel program regulations are located in 40 CFR Part 80 subpart I. A 15 parts per million (ppm) sulfur specification, known as Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel (ULSD), was phased in for highway diesel fuel from 2006-2010. Diesel engines equipped with advanced emission control devices (generally, 2007 and later model year engines and vehicles) must use highway ULSD fuel. Exhaust emissions from these engines will decrease by more than 90%. Regulatory Program: Highway Diesel Fuel Fact Sheet: Heavy-Duty Engine and Vehicle Standards and Highway Diesel Fuel Sulfur Control Requirements (PDF) (4 pp, 124K, EPA420-F-00-057, December 2000) Low sulfur (500 ppm) and Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel (ULSD) fuel will be phased in for nonroad, locomotive, and marine (NRLM) engines from 2007-2014. These fuel requirements, coupled with advanced emission control technologies, will decrease emissions from these engines by more than 90%. Regulatory Program: Nonroad, Locomotive, and Marine Diesel Fuel Fact Sheets: Regulatory Announcement: Clean Air Nonroad Diesel Rule (PDF) (5 pp, 122K, EPA420-F-04-032, May 2004) EPA adopted changes to the diesel fuel program to allow for the production and sale of diesel fuel with up to 1,000 ppm sulfur for use in Category 3 marine vessels. The regulations generally forbid production and sale of fuels with more than 1,000 ppm sulfur for use in most U.S. waters, unless operators achieve equivalent emission reductions in other ways. Regulatory Program: Category 3 Marine Rule (PDF) (1 pp, 125K, EPA420-F-09-075, December 2009) Fact Sheet: Regulatory Announcement: EPA Finalizes More stringent Standards for Control of Emissions from New marine Compression-Ignition Engines at or Above 30 Liters per Cylinder (PDF) (6 pp, 144K, EPA420-F-09-068, December 2009) Sulfur Content Since the 1990’s, fuel quality has been increasingly more regulated by the US EPA under the authority of the Clean Air Act. In the context of the increasingly more stringent diesel emission standards, the most important fuel property regulated by the EPA became the sulfur content. Historically, the sulfur content in diesel fuels for highway and nonroad vehicles was limited to 0.5% (wt.) by ASTM specifications. The milestones in US environmental regulations limiting sulfur levels in diesel fuels can be summarized as follows: Highway Diesel Fuel 500 ppm: Sulfur limit of 500 ppm = 0.05% (wt.) became effective in October 1993. This fuel, commonly referred to as low sulfur diesel fuel, was introduced to facilitate sulfate particulate emission reductions, which were necessary for meeting the 1994 emission standards for heavy-duty highway engines. 15 ppm: Diesel fuel of maximum sulfur level of 15 ppm was available for highway use beginning in June 2006. This fuel, referred to as ultra low sulfur diesel (ULSD), was legislated by the EPA to enable catalyst-based emission control devices, such as diesel particulate filters and NOx adsorbers necessary for meeting the 2007-2010 emission standards for heavy-duty engines and the Tier 2 light-duty standards. Nonroad Diesel Fuel The following sulfur requirements are applicable to Nonroad, Locomotive and Marine (NRLM) fuels, with the exception of heavy fuel oils (HFO) used in Category 2 and Category 3 marine diesel engines. 500 ppm: Sulfur limit of 500 ppm became effective in June 2007 for nonroad, locomotive and marine fuels. 15 ppm: Sulfur limit of 15 ppm (ULSD) becomes effective in June 2010 for nonroad fuel, and in June 2012 for locomotive and marine fuels. ULSD has been legislated for nonroad engines to enable advanced emission control systems for meeting the Tier 4 nonroad emission standards. s On Dec 10, 2014, at 9:13 PM, Robert Abbott via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: I know this topic was discussed to great lengths, but to anyone who is interested, here is the article I read that led to my question of marine diesel fuel versus regular diesel fuel. Not being a chemist or material scientist, and to any of those in these professions that might read this, to me, it seems to be a matter of sulfur content. http://www.epa.gov/otaq/regs/nonroad/marine/ci/fr/dfuelrpt.pdf Rob Abbott AZURA CC 32 -84 Halifax, N.S. ___ This List is provided by
Re: Stus-List Diesel Fuel
Thanks David, For checking that source. We need more peer review. One problem with the internet is the old info is kept forever. This also applies to opinions based on old data. Another problem happens when different websites link to a bad opinion and the opinion from a single individual gets multiplied as if it's a common viewpoint. Thanks, Chuck Resolute 1990 CC 34R Broad Creek, Magothy River, Md - Original Message - From: David Knecht via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com To: Robert Abbott robertabb...@eastlink.ca, CnC CnC discussion list cnc-list@cnc-list.com Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2014 9:58:13 PM Subject: Re: Stus-List Diesel Fuel I did not read the entire pdf, but I think it is out of date. That document is from 1999, and subsequently, the government redefined the quality of diesel fuel. So from reading the sites below, it looks to me like the marine (small engine) fuel and road fuel are the same (at least have the same sulfur content). Dave https://www.dieselnet.com/standards/us/fuel.php http://www.epa.gov/OTAQ/fuels/dieselfuels/index.htm The cleaner diesel fuel program significantly reduces sulfur content, creating immediate health benefits, and allowing engine manufacturers to begin using advanced emissions control systems that further reduce harmful emissions. The diesel program regulations are located in 40 CFR Part 80 subpart I. * A 15 parts per million (ppm) sulfur specification, known as Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel (ULSD), was phased in for highway diesel fuel from 2006-2010. Diesel engines equipped with advanced emission control devices (generally, 2007 and later model year engines and vehicles) must use highway ULSD fuel. Exhaust emissions from these engines will decrease by more than 90%. * Regulatory Program : Highway Diesel Fuel * Fact Sheet: Heavy-Duty Engine and Vehicle Standards and Highway Diesel Fuel Sulfur Control Requirements (PDF) (4 pp, 124K, EPA420-F-00-057, December 2000) * Low sulfur (500 ppm) and Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel (ULSD) fuel will be phased in for nonroad, locomotive, and marine (NRLM) engines from 2007-2014. These fuel requirements, coupled with advanced emission control technologies, will decrease emissions from these engines by more than 90%. * Regulatory Program : Nonroad, Locomotive, and Marine Diesel Fuel * Fact Sheets: Regulatory Announcement: Clean Air Nonroad Diesel Rule (PDF) (5 pp, 122K, EPA420-F-04-032, May 2004) * EPA adopted changes to the diesel fuel program to allow for the production and sale of diesel fuel with up to 1,000 ppm sulfur for use in Category 3 marine vessels. The regulations generally forbid production and sale of fuels with more than 1,000 ppm sulfur for use in most U.S. waters, unless operators achieve equivalent emission reductions in other ways. * Regulatory Program: Category 3 Marine Rule (PDF) (1 pp, 125K, EPA420-F-09-075, December 2009) * Fact Sheet: Regulatory Announcement: EPA Finalizes More stringent Standards for Control of Emissions from New marine Compression-Ignition Engines at or Above 30 Liters per Cylinder (PDF) (6 pp, 144K, EPA420-F-09-068, December 2009) Sulfur Content Since the 1990’s, fuel quality has been increasingly more regulated by the US EPA under the authority of the Clean Air Act. In the context of the increasingly more stringent diesel emission standards, the most important fuel property regulated by the EPA became the sulfur content. Historically, the sulfur content in diesel fuels for highway and nonroad vehicles was limited to 0.5% (wt.) by ASTM specifications. The milestones in US environmental regulations limiting sulfur levels in diesel fuels can be summarized as follows: * Highway Diesel Fuel * 500 ppm: Sulfur limit of 500 ppm = 0.05% (wt.) became effective in October 1993. This fuel, commonly referred to as low sulfur diesel fuel, was introduced to facilitate sulfate particulate emission reductions, which were necessary for meeting the 1994 emission standards for heavy-duty highway engines. * 15 ppm: Diesel fuel of maximum sulfur level of 15 ppm was available for highway use beginning in June 2006. This fuel, referred to as ultra low sulfur diesel (ULSD), was legislated by the EPA to enable catalyst-based emission control devices, such as diesel particulate filters and NO x adsorbers necessary for meeting the 2007-2010 emission standards for heavy-duty engines and the Tier 2 light-duty standards. * Nonroad Diesel Fuel The following sulfur requirements are applicable to Nonroad, Locomotive and Marine (NRLM) fuels, with the exception of heavy fuel oils (HFO) used in Category 2 and Category 3 marine diesel engines. * 500 ppm: Sulfur limit of 500 ppm became effective in June 2007 for nonroad, locomotive and marine fuels. * 15 ppm: Sulfur limit of 15 ppm (ULSD) becomes effective in June 2010 for nonroad
