Re: Stus-List Window Installation - 1985 41

[Rick Brass via CnC-List]

I have the aluminum frame windows on both my boats, which I consider to be less 
stylish but much more practical, so I'm basically just an interested onlooker 
to this discussion. But it seems to me a point made several years ago in a 
similar thread has been lost here.

The frameless windows were glued into the deck/cabin structure and helped to 
stiffen it, which also helps to stiffen the whole boat.

Plexus seems a right PITA to use, but it has lasted the better part of 30 years 
on our old boats. And the comments about damaging gel oat when removing old 
portlights speaks to its tenacity as an adhesive.

Sika 295uv, and the 3M equivalent, are great adhesives and sealers. (And also a 
PITA to use. Don't even THINK about not using the primer.)  I used Sika 295 on 
my rebuilt hatches, and it is great for car windshields (which are bedded in 
rubber so the window does not crack as the car body flexes) but it remains 
flexible. And from the previous discussions on the list I've gotten the 
impression that the hull and deck flexing leads to leaks in a few years, and 
polycarbonate portlights held in by screws tend to get cracks at the stress 
points.

As I said, I have no real experience with the glued in portlight solutions and 
I'm happy with my simple, cheap, durable, but not stylish aluminum frames. I 
just wanted to remind the group about why the frameless portlights were glued 
in by C&C in the first place.

Rick Brass

Sent from my iPad

> On Feb 8, 2015, at 20:38, Edd Schillay via CnC-List  
> wrote:
> 
> We have the frameless windows and did the replacement last Spring. We used 3M 
> fuselage tape - and although the prep was a lot of work, we are very pleased 
> with the end result. 
> 
> 
> All the best,
> 
> Edd
> 
> ---
> Edd M. Schillay
> Starship Enterprise
> NCC-1701-B
> C&C 37+ | City Island, NY
> www.StarshipSailing.com
> ---
> 914.332.4400  | Office
> 914.774.9767  | Mobile
> ---
> Sent via iPhone 6
> iPhone. iTypos. iApologize
> 
> On Feb 8, 2015, at 8:24 PM, Frederick G Street via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> That might work; but butyl’s NOT an adhesive, so you would definitely need 
> the screws/bolts.
> 
> Fred Street -- Minneapolis
> S/V Oceanis (1979 C&C Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI   :^(
> 
>> On Feb 8, 2015, at 7:22 PM, Gary Zuehlke via CnC-List 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Would the butyl tape work on frameless windows that were attached by screws? 
>>  What about bolts all the way through to some nice wood trim that would 
>> "clamp" the cabin top sides between the windows and interior trim?
> 
> ___
> 
> Email address:
> CnC-List@cnc-list.com
> To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom 
> of page at:
> http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
> 
> ___
> 
> Email address:
> CnC-List@cnc-list.com
> To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom 
> of page at:
> http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
> 
___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of 
page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com

Re: Stus-List Window Installation - 1985 41

[Charlie Nelson via CnC-List]

My windows were replaced by a local yard about 10-12 years ago before I was 
paying attention to this list. There appear to be screws
involved whose heads I can see from the outside--probably screwed thru the 
windows to the fiberglass in the 'frame'--but I am not sure.
 
Some of them are beginning to leak again and over the years I have seen some 
spitting of the fiberglass on the inside around the windows. 
I think this was a result of hull stresses while sailing.
 
I have solved this with thickened epoxy and a pressure clamp to squeeze the 
splits together while the epoxy cured.

My question for the list is if I decide the windows should be replaced again, 
should I bite the bullet and go with the Plexus/glue
route or return to a glued and screwed solution, which the first repair seems 
to have been.

Since the factory window installation began leaking early in the boats history 
(5-10 years), I am not sure the windows were installed with the
best solution originally so returning to a similar fix seems at least 
counter-intuitive.

Further, I am less interested in a 'pure, original solution' fix than a simple 
fix that works, which the original fix did for ~ 12 years. Since most
of the repair cost is likely to be in the labor involved (not the cost of the 
windows), any solution will likely cost about the same. 

Charlie Nelson
Water Phantom
1995 C&C 36 XL/kcb

 
 
cenel...@aol.com

 
 
-Original Message-
From: Rick Brass via CnC-List 
To: Edd Schillay ; cnc-list 
Sent: Thu, Feb 12, 2015 9:22 am
Subject: Re: Stus-List Window Installation - 1985 41


 
I have the aluminum frame windows on both my boats, which I consider to be less 
stylish but much more practical, so I'm basically just an interested onlooker 
to this discussion. But it seems to me a point made several years ago in a 
similar thread has been lost here. 
 
  
 
 
The frameless windows were glued into the deck/cabin structure and helped to 
stiffen it, which also helps to stiffen the whole boat. 
 
  
 
 
Plexus seems a right PITA to use, but it has lasted the better part of 30 years 
on our old boats. And the comments about damaging gel oat when removing old 
portlights speaks to its tenacity as an adhesive. 
 
  
 
 
Sika 295uv, and the 3M equivalent, are great adhesives and sealers. (And also a 
PITA to use. Don't even THINK about not using the primer.)  I used Sika 295 on 
my rebuilt hatches, and it is great for car windshields (which are bedded in 
rubber so the window does not crack as the car body flexes) but it remains 
flexible. And from the previous discussions on the list I've gotten the 
impression that the hull and deck flexing leads to leaks in a few years, and 
polycarbonate portlights held in by screws tend to get cracks at the stress 
points. 
 
  
 
 
As I said, I have no real experience with the glued in portlight solutions and 
I'm happy with my simple, cheap, durable, but not stylish aluminum frames. I 
just wanted to remind the group about why the frameless portlights were glued 
in by C&C in the first place. 
 
  
 
 
Rick Brass  
  
Sent from my iPad 
 
  
On Feb 8, 2015, at 20:38, Edd Schillay via CnC-List <  cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
wrote:  
  
 
 
  
   
We have the frameless windows and did the replacement last Spring. We used 3M 
fuselage tape - and although the prep was a lot of work, we are very pleased 
with the end result. 


 


All the best,

 


Edd

 


---

Edd M. Schillay

Starship Enterprise

NCC-1701-B

C&C 37+ | City Island, NY

 www.StarshipSailing.com

---

914.332.4400  | Office

914.774.9767  | Mobile

---

Sent via iPhone 6

iPhone. iTypos. iApologize
   
   

On Feb 8, 2015, at 8:24 PM, Frederick G Street via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

   
   
That might work; but butyl’s NOT an adhesive, so you would definitely need the 
screws/bolts.

 

Fred Street -- Minneapolis
S/V Oceanis (1979 C&C Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI   :^(   
 
 

 
On Feb 8, 2015, at 7:22 PM, Gary Zuehlke via CnC-List <  
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: 
 
 
  Would the butyl tape work on frameless windows that were attached by 
screws?  What about bolts all the way through to some nice wood trim that would 
"clamp" the cabin top sides between the windows and interior trim? 


   
   
___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the 
bottom of page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com

   
  
 
 
  
   ___   
  
   Email addr

Re: Stus-List Window Installation - 1985 41

[Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List]

Charlie

A simple solution for a boat that already has screws?

OK.  The J/27 we had has a very simple window setup.  Like many other systems 
on these boats it is simple design and easy to work with.  The windows are 
literally screwed in place and bedded with silicone.  If I detected a leak I 
would remove the window, clean up the old silicon and reinstall.  Was a 15 
minute procedure.

Why couldn’t his work on the frameless windows on the 80’s C&C models?  Get new 
lexan/plexi or whatever and install with screws and silicon and never worry 
about the glue and clamps.

I am serious with this question.  It will not look as clean as the windows did 
when new because of the screws but it is a very simple solution and one that is 
easily fixed over time.

My only concern would be in offshore situations where perhaps some strength is 
compromised

Mike
Persistence

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Charlie 
Nelson via CnC-List
Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2015 11:41 AM
To: rickbr...@earthlink.net; cnc-list@cnc-list.com; e...@schillay.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List Window Installation - 1985 41

My windows were replaced by a local yard about 10-12 years ago before I was 
paying attention to this list. There appear to be screws
involved whose heads I can see from the outside--probably screwed thru the 
windows to the fiberglass in the 'frame'--but I am not sure.

Some of them are beginning to leak again and over the years I have seen some 
spitting of the fiberglass on the inside around the windows.
I think this was a result of hull stresses while sailing.

I have solved this with thickened epoxy and a pressure clamp to squeeze the 
splits together while the epoxy cured.

My question for the list is if I decide the windows should be replaced again, 
should I bite the bullet and go with the Plexus/glue
route or return to a glued and screwed solution, which the first repair seems 
to have been.

Since the factory window installation began leaking early in the boats history 
(5-10 years), I am not sure the windows were installed with the
best solution originally so returning to a similar fix seems at least 
counter-intuitive.

Further, I am less interested in a 'pure, original solution' fix than a simple 
fix that works, which the original fix did for ~ 12 years. Since most
of the repair cost is likely to be in the labor involved (not the cost of the 
windows), any solution will likely cost about the same.

Charlie Nelson
Water Phantom
1995 C&C 36 XL/kcb



cenel...@aol.com


-Original Message-
From: Rick Brass via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
To: Edd Schillay mailto:e...@schillay.com>>; cnc-list 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Sent: Thu, Feb 12, 2015 9:22 am
Subject: Re: Stus-List Window Installation - 1985 41
I have the aluminum frame windows on both my boats, which I consider to be less 
stylish but much more practical, so I'm basically just an interested onlooker 
to this discussion. But it seems to me a point made several years ago in a 
similar thread has been lost here.

The frameless windows were glued into the deck/cabin structure and helped to 
stiffen it, which also helps to stiffen the whole boat.

Plexus seems a right PITA to use, but it has lasted the better part of 30 years 
on our old boats. And the comments about damaging gel oat when removing old 
portlights speaks to its tenacity as an adhesive.

Sika 295uv, and the 3M equivalent, are great adhesives and sealers. (And also a 
PITA to use. Don't even THINK about not using the primer.)  I used Sika 295 on 
my rebuilt hatches, and it is great for car windshields (which are bedded in 
rubber so the window does not crack as the car body flexes) but it remains 
flexible. And from the previous discussions on the list I've gotten the 
impression that the hull and deck flexing leads to leaks in a few years, and 
polycarbonate portlights held in by screws tend to get cracks at the stress 
points.

As I said, I have no real experience with the glued in portlight solutions and 
I'm happy with my simple, cheap, durable, but not stylish aluminum frames. I 
just wanted to remind the group about why the frameless portlights were glued 
in by C&C in the first place.

Rick Brass

Sent from my iPad

On Feb 8, 2015, at 20:38, Edd Schillay via CnC-List < 
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
We have the frameless windows and did the replacement last Spring. We used 3M 
fuselage tape - and although the prep was a lot of work, we are very pleased 
with the end result.

All the best,

Edd

---
Edd M. Schillay
Starship Enterprise
NCC-1701-B
C&C 37+ | City Island, NY
www.StarshipSailing.com
---
914.332.4400  | Office
914.774.9767  | Mobile
---
Sent via iPhone 6
iPhone. iTypos. iApologize

On Feb 8, 2015, at 8:24 PM, Frederick G Street via CnC-List < 
cnc-list@cn

Re: Stus-List Window Installation - 1985 41

[Frederick G Street via CnC-List]

For all the people on the list that have had some success with the Sika option, 
I’m with Rick: the original Plexus solution still seems to be the best option 
to me, so long as it’s done carefully and with the correct materials.  This 
means that you need to use cast, not extruded acrylic for the lights, and it 
needs to be the proper thickness (3/8” for pretty much all of our boats).  On 
my first C&C, a 1981 30mkI, the original installation lasted until about 1997 
before the windows started to leak; that’s sixteen years.  On my current 1979 
Landfall 38, the windows were incorrectly replaced by the former owner before I 
purchased her in 2005; he used 1/4” cheap acrylic, and it’s split in many 
places.  When I replace them this year, I will be using a Plexus product and 
high-quality 3/8” acrylic, along with LifeSeal for the final edging around the 
cabin sides.

Fred Street -- Minneapolis
S/V Oceanis (1979 C&C Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI   :^(

On Feb 12, 2015, at 9:40 AM, Charlie Nelson via CnC-List 
 wrote:

> My windows were replaced by a local yard about 10-12 years ago before I was 
> paying attention to this list. There appear to be screws
> involved whose heads I can see from the outside--probably screwed thru the 
> windows to the fiberglass in the 'frame'--but I am not sure.
>  
> Some of them are beginning to leak again and over the years I have seen some 
> spitting of the fiberglass on the inside around the windows.
> I think this was a result of hull stresses while sailing.
>  
> I have solved this with thickened epoxy and a pressure clamp to squeeze the 
> splits together while the epoxy cured.
>  
> My question for the list is if I decide the windows should be replaced again, 
> should I bite the bullet and go with the Plexus/glue
> route or return to a glued and screwed solution, which the first repair seems 
> to have been.
>  
> Since the factory window installation began leaking early in the boats 
> history (5-10 years), I am not sure the windows were installed with the
> best solution originally so returning to a similar fix seems at least 
> counter-intuitive.
>  
> Further, I am less interested in a 'pure, original solution' fix than a 
> simple fix that works, which the original fix did for ~ 12 years. Since most
> of the repair cost is likely to be in the labor involved (not the cost of the 
> windows), any solution will likely cost about the same. 
>  
> Charlie Nelson
> Water Phantom
> 1995 C&C 36 XL/kcb
>  
>  
>  
> cenel...@aol.com
>  
>  
> -Original Message-
> From: Rick Brass via CnC-List 
> To: Edd Schillay ; cnc-list 
> Sent: Thu, Feb 12, 2015 9:22 am
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Window Installation - 1985 41
> 
> I have the aluminum frame windows on both my boats, which I consider to be 
> less stylish but much more practical, so I'm basically just an interested 
> onlooker to this discussion. But it seems to me a point made several years 
> ago in a similar thread has been lost here.
> 
> The frameless windows were glued into the deck/cabin structure and helped to 
> stiffen it, which also helps to stiffen the whole boat.
> 
> Plexus seems a right PITA to use, but it has lasted the better part of 30 
> years on our old boats. And the comments about damaging gel oat when removing 
> old portlights speaks to its tenacity as an adhesive.
> 
> Sika 295uv, and the 3M equivalent, are great adhesives and sealers. (And also 
> a PITA to use. Don't even THINK about not using the primer.)  I used Sika 295 
> on my rebuilt hatches, and it is great for car windshields (which are bedded 
> in rubber so the window does not crack as the car body flexes) but it remains 
> flexible. And from the previous discussions on the list I've gotten the 
> impression that the hull and deck flexing leads to leaks in a few years, and 
> polycarbonate portlights held in by screws tend to get cracks at the stress 
> points.
> 
> As I said, I have no real experience with the glued in portlight solutions 
> and I'm happy with my simple, cheap, durable, but not stylish aluminum 
> frames. I just wanted to remind the group about why the frameless portlights 
> were glued in by C&C in the first place.
> 
> Rick Brass 
> 
> Sent from my iPad
> 
> On Feb 8, 2015, at 20:38, Edd Schillay via CnC-List < cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
> wrote: 
> 
> We have the frameless windows and did the replacement last Spring. We used 3M 
> fuselage tape - and although the prep was a lot of work, we are very pleased 
> with the end result.  
> 
> 
> All the best,
> 
> Edd
> 
> ---
> Edd M. Schillay
> Starship Enterprise
> NCC-1701-B
> C&C 37+ | City Island, NY
> www.StarshipSailing.com
> ---
> 914.332.4400  | Office
> 914.774.9767  | Mobile
> ---
> Sent via iPhone 6
> iPhone. iTypos. iApologize
> 
> On Feb 8, 2015, at 8:24 PM, Frederick G Street via CnC-List < 
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote: 
> 
> That might work; but but

Re: Stus-List Folding/feathering Props

[Wally Kowal via CnC-List]

Alan,
I have a two-blade Gori that I took off our 30 Mk 1 years ago that you can get 
at a good price.  We don't race and it folded once too often while my wife was 
docking.
It is sized for an Atomic 4.  I have no idea where it is but I can look for it 
if you are interested.
We had an interesting situation with it.  We were leaving NOTL Yacht Club, 
motoring over the Niagara River bar into a heavy north wind which created VERY 
tall waves, and every time the boat tipped over the top of a particularly large 
wave, the prop would leave the water and fold instantly.  We had to put the 
transmission in neutral then shift back into forward to re-open the prop.
It took a few minutes of panic to figure out what was happening.
Wally.Whistler IIC&C 30 '74 out of Penetanguishene, ON

  From: Alan Lombard via CnC-List 
 To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
 Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2015 4:10 PM
 Subject: Re: Stus-List Folding/feathering Props
   
Hello Gary,I too have a C&C 30 and am 
debating either a Gori or a FlexoFold. Do you remember what size Flexofold you 
have, and can you comment if it seems the right size. The recommendation 
Flexofold have made to me is  2-blade 15x11R. Thanks,Alan
___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of 
page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com



  ___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of 
page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com

Re: Stus-List Folding/feathering Props

[Rick Brass via CnC-List]

Let me guess: When you went over the wave and the prop broke the surface, the 
engine started to race and kept racing after the prop went back down?

That is exactly what happens with an outboard in waves (separate recent 
discussion on the list) and the situation is the result of cavitation. The 
engine races because the prop has no bite on the air, and the prop just makes 
bubbles and spins when it goes back into the water. When you throttle back, the 
water flow over the prop can reattach and stop the cavitation.

Your Gori prop is geared, so it will stay with blades extended out as long as 
the prop shaft is spinning. It didn't fold when it came out of the water. And 
the advantage of the geared prop is that the blade going over the top does not 
close due to the effect of gravity. 

When traveling at "higher" boat speed, for example when coasting down as you 
approach the dock, with the engine near idle, the prop may fold slightly due to 
the water flow over the prop having more force on the blades than the thrust 
being generated by the prop spinning. But when you are going forward at idle 
speed with the transmission engaged at idle, the thrust on the blade will keep 
the blades folded out. 

That said, any folding prop does take a bit of getting used to. They all have 
idiosyncrasies compared to a fixed prop setup.

Rick Brass

Sent from my iPad

> On Feb 12, 2015, at 10:59, Wally Kowal via CnC-List  
> wrote:
> 
> Alan,
> 
> I have a two-blade Gori that I took off our 30 Mk 1 years ago that you can 
> get at a good price.  We don't race and it folded once too often while my 
> wife was docking.
> 
> It is sized for an Atomic 4.  I have no idea where it is but I can look for 
> it if you are interested.
> 
> We had an interesting situation with it.  We were leaving NOTL Yacht Club, 
> motoring over the Niagara River bar into a heavy north wind which created 
> VERY tall waves, and every time the boat tipped over the top of a 
> particularly large wave, the prop would leave the water and fold instantly.  
> We had to put the transmission in neutral then shift back into forward to 
> re-open the prop.
> 
> It took a few minutes of panic to figure out what was happening.
> 
> Wally.
> Whistler II
> C&C 30 '74 out of Penetanguishene, ON
> 
> 
> From: Alan Lombard via CnC-List 
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
> Sent: Saturday, January 31, 2015 4:10 PM
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Folding/feathering Props
> 
> Hello Gary,
> I too have a C&C 30 and am debating either a Gori or a FlexoFold. Do you 
> remember what size Flexofold you have, and can you comment if it seems the 
> right size. The recommendation Flexofold have made to me is  2-blade 15x11R.
> Thanks,
> Alan
> 
> ___
> 
> Email address:
> CnC-List@cnc-list.com
> To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom 
> of page at:
> http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> 
> Email address:
> CnC-List@cnc-list.com
> To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom 
> of page at:
> http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
> 
___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of 
page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com

Re: Stus-List Folding/feathering Props

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

Hi Wally.

  I am interested. I have a C&C 30-1 with an Atomic 4. Currently I am using a 
Gori
2 blade 11.5 x 8 but would consider getting a second one as a spare.

  If you get the right wave direction at the mouth of the Niagara River it can 
produce
some huge standing waves. I am not sure what physics would cause the folding 
prop
to close in air if it was rotating, my thoughts up to now would have been that 
the
centrifugal force would open it or keep it open.

Michael Brown
Windburn
C&C 30-1

 
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2015 15:59:02 + (UTC) 
From: Wally Kowal  
To: Alan Lombard ,      "cnc-list@cnc-list.com" 
      
Subject: Re: Stus-List Folding/feathering Props 
Message-ID: 
     <734680612.3871840.1423756742424.javamail.ya...@mail.yahoo.com> 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" 
 
Alan, 
I have a two-blade Gori that I took off our 30 Mk 1 years ago that you can get 
at a good price.? We don't race and it folded once too often while my wife was 
docking. 
It is sized for an Atomic 4.? I have no idea where it is but I can look for it 
if you are interested. 
We had an interesting situation with it.? We were leaving NOTL Yacht Club, 
motoring over the Niagara River bar into a heavy north wind which created VERY 
tall waves, and every time the boat tipped over the top of a particularly large 
wave, the prop would leave the water and fold instantly.? We had to put the 
transmission in neutral then shift back into forward to re-open the prop. 
It took a few minutes of panic to figure out what was happening. 
Wally.Whistler IIC&C 30 '74 out of Penetanguishene, ON 
 
___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of 
page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com

Re: Stus-List Window Installation - 1985 41

[Brent Driedger via CnC-List]

I went the Plexus route and I was very pleased with the results. The gun was 
air powered making it easy to use and the newer products have a better working 
time than the original stuff. I'm on 4 years and happy. 
This is my second attempt however. In the original job I think I squeezed too 
much goo out and the seal Failed later that year. 
I was excited to try the 3m double sided structural aviation tape but the 
method was untried at the time and I was concerned about the resins attacking 
the acrylic like 5200 will. 
Don't fear the Plexus. 

Brent
27-5
Lake Winnipeg

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 12, 2015, at 9:49 AM, Frederick G Street via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> For all the people on the list that have had some success with the Sika 
> option, I’m with Rick: the original Plexus solution still seems to be the 
> best option to me, so long as it’s done carefully and with the correct 
> materials.  This means that you need to use cast, not extruded acrylic for 
> the lights, and it needs to be the proper thickness (3/8” for pretty much all 
> of our boats).  On my first C&C, a 1981 30mkI, the original installation 
> lasted until about 1997 before the windows started to leak; that’s sixteen 
> years.  On my current 1979 Landfall 38, the windows were incorrectly replaced 
> by the former owner before I purchased her in 2005; he used 1/4” cheap 
> acrylic, and it’s split in many places.  When I replace them this year, I 
> will be using a Plexus product and high-quality 3/8” acrylic, along with 
> LifeSeal for the final edging around the cabin sides.
> 
> Fred Street -- Minneapolis
> S/V Oceanis (1979 C&C Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI   :^(
> 
>> On Feb 12, 2015, at 9:40 AM, Charlie Nelson via CnC-List 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> My windows were replaced by a local yard about 10-12 years ago before I was 
>> paying attention to this list. There appear to be screws
>> involved whose heads I can see from the outside--probably screwed thru the 
>> windows to the fiberglass in the 'frame'--but I am not sure.
>>  
>> Some of them are beginning to leak again and over the years I have seen some 
>> spitting of the fiberglass on the inside around the windows.
>> I think this was a result of hull stresses while sailing.
>>  
>> I have solved this with thickened epoxy and a pressure clamp to squeeze the 
>> splits together while the epoxy cured.
>>  
>> My question for the list is if I decide the windows should be replaced 
>> again, should I bite the bullet and go with the Plexus/glue
>> route or return to a glued and screwed solution, which the first repair 
>> seems to have been.
>>  
>> Since the factory window installation began leaking early in the boats 
>> history (5-10 years), I am not sure the windows were installed with the
>> best solution originally so returning to a similar fix seems at least 
>> counter-intuitive.
>>  
>> Further, I am less interested in a 'pure, original solution' fix than a 
>> simple fix that works, which the original fix did for ~ 12 years. Since most
>> of the repair cost is likely to be in the labor involved (not the cost of 
>> the windows), any solution will likely cost about the same. 
>>  
>> Charlie Nelson
>> Water Phantom
>> 1995 C&C 36 XL/kcb
>>  
>>  
>>  
>> cenel...@aol.com
>>  
>>  
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Rick Brass via CnC-List 
>> To: Edd Schillay ; cnc-list 
>> Sent: Thu, Feb 12, 2015 9:22 am
>> Subject: Re: Stus-List Window Installation - 1985 41
>> 
>> I have the aluminum frame windows on both my boats, which I consider to be 
>> less stylish but much more practical, so I'm basically just an interested 
>> onlooker to this discussion. But it seems to me a point made several years 
>> ago in a similar thread has been lost here.
>> 
>> The frameless windows were glued into the deck/cabin structure and helped to 
>> stiffen it, which also helps to stiffen the whole boat.
>> 
>> Plexus seems a right PITA to use, but it has lasted the better part of 30 
>> years on our old boats. And the comments about damaging gel oat when 
>> removing old portlights speaks to its tenacity as an adhesive.
>> 
>> Sika 295uv, and the 3M equivalent, are great adhesives and sealers. (And 
>> also a PITA to use. Don't even THINK about not using the primer.)  I used 
>> Sika 295 on my rebuilt hatches, and it is great for car windshields (which 
>> are bedded in rubber so the window does not crack as the car body flexes) 
>> but it remains flexible. And from the previous discussions on the list I've 
>> gotten the impression that the hull and deck flexing leads to leaks in a few 
>> years, and polycarbonate portlights held in by screws tend to get cracks at 
>> the stress points.
>> 
>> As I said, I have no real experience with the glued in portlight solutions 
>> and I'm happy with my simple, cheap, durable, but not stylish aluminum 
>> frames. I just wanted to remind the group about why the frameless portlights 
>> were glued in by C&C in the first place.
>> 
>> Ri

Stus-List Old Rochester High sailng program.

[Burt Stratton via CnC-List]

Can't attach a pdf. 

 

Here is a link
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1jlbdmQzvxLUEI1dXd6bXNaLVU/view?usp=sharin
g

 

___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of 
page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com

Re: Stus-List Window Installation - 1985 41

[dwight veinot via CnC-List]

Rick

Is it really true that the designers at C&C expected glued on acryllic
ports to stiffen the whole boat

Dwight Veinot
C&C 35 MKII, *Alianna*
Head of St. Margaret's Bay, NS
d.ve...@bellaliant.net


On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 10:21 AM, Rick Brass via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> I have the aluminum frame windows on both my boats, which I consider to be
> less stylish but much more practical, so I'm basically just an interested
> onlooker to this discussion. But it seems to me a point made several years
> ago in a similar thread has been lost here.
>
> The frameless windows were glued into the deck/cabin structure and helped
> to stiffen it, which also helps to stiffen the whole boat.
>
> Plexus seems a right PITA to use, but it has lasted the better part of 30
> years on our old boats. And the comments about damaging gel oat when
> removing old portlights speaks to its tenacity as an adhesive.
>
> Sika 295uv, and the 3M equivalent, are great adhesives and sealers. (And
> also a PITA to use. Don't even THINK about not using the primer.)  I used
> Sika 295 on my rebuilt hatches, and it is great for car windshields (which
> are bedded in rubber so the window does not crack as the car body flexes)
> but it remains flexible. And from the previous discussions on the list I've
> gotten the impression that the hull and deck flexing leads to leaks in a
> few years, and polycarbonate portlights held in by screws tend to get
> cracks at the stress points.
>
> As I said, I have no real experience with the glued in portlight solutions
> and I'm happy with my simple, cheap, durable, but not stylish aluminum
> frames. I just wanted to remind the group about why the frameless
> portlights were glued in by C&C in the first place.
>
> Rick Brass
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Feb 8, 2015, at 20:38, Edd Schillay via CnC-List 
> wrote:
>
> We have the frameless windows and did the replacement last Spring. We used
> 3M fuselage tape - and although the prep was a lot of work, we are very
> pleased with the end result.
>
>
> All the best,
>
> Edd
>
> ---
> Edd M. Schillay
> Starship Enterprise
> NCC-1701-B
> C&C 37+ | City Island, NY
> www.StarshipSailing.com
> ---
> 914.332.4400  | Office
> 914.774.9767  | Mobile
> ---
> Sent via iPhone 6
> iPhone. iTypos. iApologize
>
> On Feb 8, 2015, at 8:24 PM, Frederick G Street via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
> That might work; but butyl’s NOT an adhesive, so you would definitely need
> the screws/bolts.
>
> Fred Street -- Minneapolis
> S/V Oceanis (1979 C&C Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI   :^(
>
> On Feb 8, 2015, at 7:22 PM, Gary Zuehlke via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
> Would the butyl tape work on frameless windows that were attached by
> screws?  What about bolts all the way through to some nice wood trim that
> would "clamp" the cabin top sides between the windows and interior trim?
>
>
> ___
>
> Email address:
> CnC-List@cnc-list.com
> To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the
> bottom of page at:
> http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
>
> ___
>
> Email address:
> CnC-List@cnc-list.com
> To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the
> bottom of page at:
> http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
>
>
> ___
>
> Email address:
> CnC-List@cnc-list.com
> To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the
> bottom of page at:
> http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
>
>
>
___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of 
page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com

Stus-List old Rochester High sailing program

[Burt Stratton via CnC-List]

Sorry, my earlier note never went out. That link in my previous note is a
document I got presumably by being part of this list. Was wondering if
anyone else or whom else got this. I have no issues with it, just wish I was
qualified. What a fun job that would be! I know one of our listers is in
Mattapoisett.  

___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of 
page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com

Re: Stus-List old Rochester High sailing program

[David via CnC-List]

Funny...I live in Marion and all three of my kids graduated from ORR.   

I will keep my eyes open for candidates.  Thanks for the heads up!

David F. Risch
1981 40
(401) 419-4650 (cell)


To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2015 14:15:08 -0500
Subject: Stus-List old Rochester High sailing program
From: cnc-list@cnc-list.com

Sorry, my earlier note never went out. That link in my previous note is a 
document I got presumably by being part of this list. Was wondering if anyone 
else or whom else got this. I have no issues with it, just wish I was 
qualified. What a fun job that would be! I know one of our listers is in 
Mattapoisett.  
___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of 
page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com  
  ___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of 
page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com

Re: Stus-List Window Installation - 1985 41

[Frederick G Street via CnC-List]

Dwight — if I might jump in here, my understanding is that the glued-in acrylic 
ports became a unified part of the cabintop structure, and stiffened the 
structure; NOT that they made the boat stiffer in terms of sailing 
characteristics.

Fred Street -- Minneapolis
S/V Oceanis (1979 C&C Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI   :^(

On Feb 12, 2015, at 1:15 PM, dwight veinot via CnC-List  
wrote:

> Rick
> 
> Is it really true that the designers at C&C expected glued on acryllic ports 
> to stiffen the whole boat
> 
> Dwight Veinot
> C&C 35 MKII, Alianna
> Head of St. Margaret's Bay, NS
> d.ve...@bellaliant.net
> 

___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of 
page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com

Stus-List Window Installation - 1985 41

[Robert Boyer via CnC-List]

Just to add to others' experience with frameless fixed port lights, my Landfall 
38 is a 1983 vintage and I have owned it since 1986.  Since 1986 I made two 
port light replacements using 3/8-inch thick cast acrylic and plexus before 
making my last and final fix without Plexus (about 13 years ago).  During the 
19 years using Plexus, it seemed like I always had a leak somewhere in one of 
the four port lights (the two aft port lights most frequently).  Sometimes, the 
Plexus' bond would break and other times the acrylic would crack and cause a 
leak. You could say that the Plexus-installed windows lasted 11.5 years each 
time on average but during most of that time there were leaks.

The Plexus is very hard (and brittle) after it cures.  It certainly sounds 
reasonable to me that flexing of the boat's structure causes these cracks to 
occur.  I really think the reason my current window design works so well 
(leakproof for the last 13 years) is that the flexibility is being accommodated 
rather than resisted.  My fix was not inexpensive and I did most of the work 
myself while living aboard.

So, when thinking about Plexus-installed windows, how much of your service life 
was really leak-free?  I think that is the important question to ask rather 
than the frequency of replacement.

Bob

Bob Boyer
S/V Rainy Days / Annapolis MD
1983 C&C Landfall 38 - Hull #230
email: dainyr...@icloud.com 
blog: dainyrays.blogspot.com

"There is nothing--absolutely nothing--half so much worth doing as simply 
messing about in boats."  --Kenneth Grahame___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of 
page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com

Re: Stus-List Window Installation - 1985 41

[David via CnC-List]

I used BoatLife 10 years ago on my frameless ports and nary a leak since then...

David F. Risch
181 40
(401) 419-4650 (cell)


Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2015 15:39:00 -0500
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Stus-List Window Installation - 1985 41
From: cnc-list@cnc-list.com

Just to add to others' experience with frameless fixed port lights, my Landfall 
38 is a 1983 vintage and I have owned it since 1986.  Since 1986 I made two 
port light replacements using 3/8-inch thick cast acrylic and plexus before 
making my last and final fix without Plexus (about 13 years ago).  During the 
19 years using Plexus, it seemed like I always had a leak somewhere in one of 
the four port lights (the two aft port lights most frequently).  Sometimes, the 
Plexus' bond would break and other times the acrylic would crack and cause a 
leak. You could say that the Plexus-installed windows lasted 11.5 years each 
time on average but during most of that time there were leaks.
The Plexus is very hard (and brittle) after it cures.  It certainly sounds 
reasonable to me that flexing of the boat's structure causes these cracks to 
occur.  I really think the reason my current window design works so well 
(leakproof for the last 13 years) is that the flexibility is being accommodated 
rather than resisted.  My fix was not inexpensive and I did most of the work 
myself while living aboard.
So, when thinking about Plexus-installed windows, how much of your service life 
was really leak-free?  I think that is the important question to ask rather 
than the frequency of replacement.
Bob

Bob BoyerS/V Rainy Days / Annapolis MD1983 C&C Landfall 38 - Hull #230email: 
dainyr...@icloud.com blog: dainyrays.blogspot.com
"There is nothing--absolutely nothing--half so much worth doing as simply 
messing about in boats."  --Kenneth Grahame
___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of 
page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com  
  ___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of 
page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com

Re: Stus-List Window Installation - 1985 41

[robert via CnC-List]

Interesting question Dwight.  The front windshield on my car is supposed 
to be an integral  part of the car's safety accessories and yet it is 
glued in place by a Sika product.  Sika is good enough for automobile 
insurance companies and the marine insurance companies probably don't 
care what we use to glue our windows in place.


In the case of our C&C 32, the Plexus harden like 'resin' and cracked as 
the boat flexed, thus causing the windows to leak.  I had very little 
problem cutting them out when we removed them.


Rob Abbott
AZURA
C&C 32 - 84
Halifax, N.S.


On 2015-02-12 3:15 PM, dwight veinot via CnC-List wrote:

Rick

Is it really true that the designers at C&C expected glued on acryllic 
ports to stiffen the whole boat


Dwight Veinot
C&C 35 MKII, */Alianna/*
Head of St. Margaret's Bay, NS
d.ve...@bellaliant.net 


On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 10:21 AM, Rick Brass via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:


I have the aluminum frame windows on both my boats, which I
consider to be less stylish but much more practical, so I'm
basically just an interested onlooker to this discussion. But it
seems to me a point made several years ago in a similar thread has
been lost here.

The frameless windows were glued into the deck/cabin structure and
helped to stiffen it, which also helps to stiffen the whole boat.

Plexus seems a right PITA to use, but it has lasted the better
part of 30 years on our old boats. And the comments about damaging
gel oat when removing old portlights speaks to its tenacity as an
adhesive.

Sika 295uv, and the 3M equivalent, are great adhesives and
sealers. (And also a PITA to use. Don't even THINK about not using
the primer.)  I used Sika 295 on my rebuilt hatches, and it is
great for car windshields (which are bedded in rubber so the
window does not crack as the car body flexes) but it remains
flexible. And from the previous discussions on the list I've
gotten the impression that the hull and deck flexing leads to
leaks in a few years, and polycarbonate portlights held in by
screws tend to get cracks at the stress points.

As I said, I have no real experience with the glued in portlight
solutions and I'm happy with my simple, cheap, durable, but not
stylish aluminum frames. I just wanted to remind the group about
why the frameless portlights were glued in by C&C in the first place.

Rick Brass

Sent from my iPad

On Feb 8, 2015, at 20:38, Edd Schillay via CnC-List
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:


We have the frameless windows and did the replacement last
Spring. We used 3M fuselage tape - and although the prep was a
lot of work, we are very pleased with the end result.


All the best,

Edd

---
Edd M. Schillay
Starship Enterprise
NCC-1701-B
C&C 37+ | City Island, NY
www.StarshipSailing.com 
---
914.332.4400   | Office
914.774.9767   | Mobile
---
Sent via iPhone 6
iPhone. iTypos. iApologize

On Feb 8, 2015, at 8:24 PM, Frederick G Street via CnC-List
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:

That might work; but butyl’s NOT an adhesive, so you would
definitely need the screws/bolts.

Fred Street -- Minneapolis
S/V Oceanis (1979 C&C Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield,
WI   :^(

On Feb 8, 2015, at 7:22 PM, Gary Zuehlke via CnC-List
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:


Would the butyl tape work on frameless windows that were
attached by screws?  What about bolts all the way through to
some nice wood trim that would "clamp" the cabin top sides
between the windows and interior trim?


___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com 
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to
the bottom of page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com

___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com 
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to
the bottom of page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com



___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com 
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to
the bottom of page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com





___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of 
page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com

Re: Stus-List Window Installation - 1985 41

[robert via CnC-List]

Bob:
For the sailing I do, if I have to choose from doing the window 
replacement job once with Sika or some other similar adhesive, and no 
more window leaks, versus any perceived extra structural integrity of my 
boat, I choose the 'no leak option'


Rob Abbott
AZURA
C&C 32 - 84
Halifax, N.S.


On 2015-02-12 4:39 PM, Robert Boyer via CnC-List wrote:
Just to add to others' experience with frameless fixed port lights, my 
Landfall 38 is a 1983 vintage and I have owned it since 1986.  Since 
1986 I made two port light replacements using 3/8-inch thick cast 
acrylic and plexus before making my last and final fix without Plexus 
(about 13 years ago).  During the 19 years using Plexus, it seemed 
like I always had a leak somewhere in one of the four port lights (the 
two aft port lights most frequently).  Sometimes, the Plexus' bond 
would break and other times the acrylic would crack and cause a leak. 
You could say that the Plexus-installed windows lasted 11.5 years each 
time on average but during most of that time there were leaks.


The Plexus is very hard (and brittle) after it cures.  It certainly 
sounds reasonable to me that flexing of the boat's structure causes 
these cracks to occur.  I really think the reason my current window 
design works so well (leakproof for the last 13 years) is that the 
flexibility is being accommodated rather than resisted.  My fix was 
not inexpensive and I did most of the work myself while living aboard.


So, when thinking about Plexus-installed windows, how much of your 
service life was really leak-free?  I think that is the important 
question to ask rather than the frequency of replacement.


Bob

Bob Boyer
S/V Rainy Days / Annapolis MD
1983 C&C Landfall 38 - Hull #230
email: dainyr...@icloud.com 
blog: dainyrays.blogspot.com 

"There is nothing--absolutely nothing--half so much worth doing as 
simply messing about in boats."  --Kenneth Grahame



___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of 
page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com



___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of 
page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com

Stus-List New forward looking sonar technology

[Jean-Francois J Rivard via CnC-List]

Hi Fred,

 B&G / Navico has it too:  http://www.bandg.com/en-US/Products/ForwardScan/

 It integrates with the Zeus 2 Chartplotter.

 -Francois
 1990 34+ "Take Five"
 Lake Lanier, GA

___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of 
page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com

Stus-List Window Installation - 1985 41

[Jean-Francois J Rivard via CnC-List]

 Hi Charlie,

My 34+  were replaced a few years back (Same design as yours) and they were
glued in place.  It was done by the "Guru" on the lake and they are tight /
waterproof after about 5 years..

I was told that it was a very difficult thing to do as there is a curve on
the portlights.  I was also told that he did it by using adhesive and using
weights to hold it in place while the adhesive was curing.  He did a really
nice job and even made a "Rain gutter" indentation in the top bead for the
water to be channelled down..

I can contact him to get the type of adhesive and more details on the
process if you want

Good Luck,

Best regards,

-Francois Rivard
1990 34+ "Take Five"
Lake Lanier, GA___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of 
page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com

Re: Stus-List Window Installation - 1985 41

[Sam Salter via CnC-List]

‎Engineers know stuff!   sam :-) From: dwight veinot via CnC-ListSent: Thursday, February 12, 2015 12:15 PMTo: Rick Brass; cnc-list@cnc-list.comReply To: dwight veinotSubject: Re: Stus-List Window Installation - 1985 41RickIs it really true that the designers at C&C expected glued on acryllic ports to stiffen the whole boatDwight VeinotC&C 35 MKII, AliannaHead of St. Margaret's Bay, NSd.ve...@bellaliant.net
On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 10:21 AM, Rick Brass via CnC-List  wrote:I have the aluminum frame windows on both my boats, which I consider to be less stylish but much more practical, so I'm basically just an interested onlooker to this discussion. But it seems to me a point made several years ago in a similar thread has been lost here.The frameless windows were glued into the deck/cabin structure and helped to stiffen it, which also helps to stiffen the whole boat.Plexus seems a right PITA to use, but it has lasted the better part of 30 years on our old boats. And the comments about damaging gel oat when removing old portlights speaks to its tenacity as an adhesive.Sika 295uv, and the 3M equivalent, are great adhesives and sealers. (And also a PITA to use. Don't even THINK about not using the primer.)  I used Sika 295 on my rebuilt hatches, and it is great for car windshields (which are bedded in rubber so the window does not crack as the car body flexes) but it remains flexible. And from the previous discussions on the list I've gotten the impression that the hull and deck flexing leads to leaks in a few years, and polycarbonate portlights held in by screws tend to get cracks at the stress points.As I said, I have no real experience with the glued in portlight solutions and I'm happy with my simple, cheap, durable, but not stylish aluminum frames. I just wanted to remind the group about why the frameless portlights were glued in by C&C in the first place.Rick BrassSent from my iPadOn Feb 8, 2015, at 20:38, Edd Schillay via CnC-List  wrote:We have the frameless windows and did the replacement last Spring. We used 3M fuselage tape - and although the prep was a lot of work, we are very pleased with the end result. All the best,Edd---Edd M. SchillayStarship EnterpriseNCC-1701-BC&C 37+ | City Island, NYwww.StarshipSailing.com---914.332.4400  | Office914.774.9767  | Mobile---Sent via iPhone 6iPhone. iTypos. iApologizeOn Feb 8, 2015, at 8:24 PM, Frederick G Street via CnC-List  wrote:That might work; but butyl’s NOT an adhesive, so you would definitely need the screws/bolts.
Fred Street -- MinneapolisS/V Oceanis (1979 C&C Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI   :^(

On Feb 8, 2015, at 7:22 PM, Gary Zuehlke via CnC-List  wrote:Would the butyl tape work on frameless windows that were attached by screws?  What about bolts all the way through to some nice wood trim that would "clamp" the cabin top sides between the windows and interior trim?___Email address:CnC-List@cnc-list.comTo change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at:http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com___Email address:CnC-List@cnc-list.comTo change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at:http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com


___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of 
page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com

___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of 
page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com

Re: Stus-List Window Installation - 1985 41

[Graham Collins via CnC-List]

Maybe, but the 80s was the infancy of finite element design - which one 
would want to use to properly evaluate the stiffening effects of rigid 
windows.  Given that using computers for hull layout was new I really 
doubt that this is an engineered in property.  Maybe Rob can comment on 
that?


As a mechanical engineer I can say I've replaced my windows using Sika, 
and am happy with that decision.


Graham Collins
Secret Plans
C&C 35-III #11

On 2015-02-12 5:17 PM, Sam Salter via CnC-List wrote:

‎Engineers know stuff!

sam :-)
*From: *dwight veinot via CnC-List
*Sent: *Thursday, February 12, 2015 12:15 PM
*To: *Rick Brass; cnc-list@cnc-list.com
*Reply To: *dwight veinot
*Subject: *Re: Stus-List Window Installation - 1985 41


Rick

Is it really true that the designers at C&C expected glued on acryllic 
ports to stiffen the whole boat


Dwight Veinot
C&C 35 MKII, */Alianna/*
Head of St. Margaret's Bay, NS
d.ve...@bellaliant.net 


On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 10:21 AM, Rick Brass via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:


I have the aluminum frame windows on both my boats, which I
consider to be less stylish but much more practical, so I'm
basically just an interested onlooker to this discussion. But it
seems to me a point made several years ago in a similar thread has
been lost here.

The frameless windows were glued into the deck/cabin structure and
helped to stiffen it, which also helps to stiffen the whole boat.

Plexus seems a right PITA to use, but it has lasted the better
part of 30 years on our old boats. And the comments about damaging
gel oat when removing old portlights speaks to its tenacity as an
adhesive.

Sika 295uv, and the 3M equivalent, are great adhesives and
sealers. (And also a PITA to use. Don't even THINK about not using
the primer.)  I used Sika 295 on my rebuilt hatches, and it is
great for car windshields (which are bedded in rubber so the
window does not crack as the car body flexes) but it remains
flexible. And from the previous discussions on the list I've
gotten the impression that the hull and deck flexing leads to
leaks in a few years, and polycarbonate portlights held in by
screws tend to get cracks at the stress points.

As I said, I have no real experience with the glued in portlight
solutions and I'm happy with my simple, cheap, durable, but not
stylish aluminum frames. I just wanted to remind the group about
why the frameless portlights were glued in by C&C in the first place.

Rick Brass

Sent from my iPad

On Feb 8, 2015, at 20:38, Edd Schillay via CnC-List
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:


We have the frameless windows and did the replacement last
Spring. We used 3M fuselage tape - and although the prep was a
lot of work, we are very pleased with the end result.


All the best,

Edd

---
Edd M. Schillay
Starship Enterprise
NCC-1701-B
C&C 37+ | City Island, NY
www.StarshipSailing.com 
---
914.332.4400   | Office
914.774.9767   | Mobile
---
Sent via iPhone 6
iPhone. iTypos. iApologize

On Feb 8, 2015, at 8:24 PM, Frederick G Street via CnC-List
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:

That might work; but butyl’s NOT an adhesive, so you would
definitely need the screws/bolts.

Fred Street -- Minneapolis
S/V Oceanis (1979 C&C Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield,
WI   :^(

On Feb 8, 2015, at 7:22 PM, Gary Zuehlke via CnC-List
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:


Would the butyl tape work on frameless windows that were
attached by screws?  What about bolts all the way through to
some nice wood trim that would "clamp" the cabin top sides
between the windows and interior trim?


___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com 
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to
the bottom of page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com

___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com 
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to
the bottom of page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com



___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com 
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to
the bottom of page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com






___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- g

Re: Stus-List Window Installation - 1985 41

[Sam Salter via CnC-List]

Well, I was using Finite Element Analysis in the early seventies; Cassion was 
an aeronautical engineer (I think) so he’d know how to do it.

But you’re right, I doubt they got into that much detail back then.

…but then again these are still pretty hot boats!!!






sam :-)






From: Graham Collins
Sent: ‎Thursday‎, ‎February‎ ‎12‎, ‎2015 ‎3‎:‎51‎ ‎PM
To: Sam Salter, CnC





Maybe, but the 80s was the infancy of finite element design - which one would 
want to use to properly evaluate the stiffening effects of rigid windows.  
Given that using computers for hull layout was new I really doubt that this is 
an engineered in property.  Maybe Rob can comment on that?

As a mechanical engineer I can say I've replaced my windows using Sika, and am 
happy with that decision.
Graham Collins
Secret Plans
C&C 35-III #11
On 2015-02-12 5:17 PM, Sam Salter via CnC-List wrote:


‎Engineers know stuff! 




sam :-)



From: dwight veinot via CnC-List

Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2015 12:15 PM

To: Rick Brass; cnc-list@cnc-list.com

Reply To: dwight veinot

Subject: Re: Stus-List Window Installation - 1985 41





Rick


Is it really true that the designers at C&C expected glued on acryllic ports to 
stiffen the whole boat







Dwight Veinot

C&C 35 MKII, Alianna
Head of St. Margaret's Bay, NS

d.ve...@bellaliant.net





On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 10:21 AM, Rick Brass via CnC-List 
 wrote:



I have the aluminum frame windows on both my boats, which I consider to be less 
stylish but much more practical, so I'm basically just an interested onlooker 
to this discussion. But it seems to me a point made several years ago in a 
similar thread has been lost here.




The frameless windows were glued into the deck/cabin structure and helped to 
stiffen it, which also helps to stiffen the whole boat.




Plexus seems a right PITA to use, but it has lasted the better part of 30 years 
on our old boats. And the comments about damaging gel oat when removing old 
portlights speaks to its tenacity as an adhesive.




Sika 295uv, and the 3M equivalent, are great adhesives and sealers. (And also a 
PITA to use. Don't even THINK about not using the primer.)  I used Sika 295 on 
my rebuilt hatches, and it is great for car windshields (which are bedded in 
rubber so the window does not crack as the car body flexes) but it remains 
flexible. And from the previous discussions on the list I've gotten the 
impression that the hull and deck flexing leads to leaks in a few years, and 
polycarbonate portlights held in by screws tend to get cracks at the stress 
points.




As I said, I have no real experience with the glued in portlight solutions and 
I'm happy with my simple, cheap, durable, but not stylish aluminum frames. I 
just wanted to remind the group about why the frameless portlights were glued 
in by C&C in the first place.




Rick Brass

Sent from my iPad




On Feb 8, 2015, at 20:38, Edd Schillay via CnC-List  
wrote:





We have the frameless windows and did the replacement last Spring. We used 3M 
fuselage tape - and although the prep was a lot of work, we are very pleased 
with the end result. 





All the best,




Edd




---

Edd M. Schillay

Starship Enterprise

NCC-1701-B

C&C 37+ | City Island, NY

www.StarshipSailing.com

---

914.332.4400  | Office

914.774.9767  | Mobile

---

Sent via iPhone 6

iPhone. iTypos. iApologize


On Feb 8, 2015, at 8:24 PM, Frederick G Street via CnC-List 
 wrote:



That might work; but butyl’s NOT an adhesive, so you would definitely need the 
screws/bolts.



Fred Street -- Minneapolis
S/V Oceanis (1979 C&C Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI   :^(
 


On Feb 8, 2015, at 7:22 PM, Gary Zuehlke via CnC-List  
wrote:


Would the butyl tape work on frameless windows that were attached by screws?  
What about bolts all the way through to some nice wood trim that would "clamp" 
the cabin top sides between the windows and interior trim?


___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of 
page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com




___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of 
page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com



___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of 
page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com







___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of 
page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com_

Re: Stus-List Landfall 38 lift muffler

[Rick Brass via CnC-List]

If anyone is interested, including you Paul, I actually have 3 mufflers out in 
my storage shed that are available. Two were purchased when I installed the 
current Universal M35 in my 38 mkII back in 2011, and the third is the muffler 
that was taken out of the boat.

 

The old muffler is a Westerbeke Hydrohush horizontal water lock muffler, 2” in 
2” out, that was part of the previous exhaust installation.

 

Second is a rectangular Vetus waterlift that has interchangable 1 ½ and 2” 
inlet and outlets , and the outlets can be turned to get anything from 
horizontal to vertical orientation. There just was not enough room on the port 
side of my engine for the rectangular footprint.

 

Then I bought a Vernalift with top in top out that was quite small – maybe 10” 
diameter by 8” tall. The footprint is OK, but the muffler had to be installed 
on the starboard side of the engine to make the hose routing work, so top in 
was not ideal.

 

Ended up with a small Vernalift, side in top out which was just the ticket.

 

Wish I had done a little more measuring and planning before I spent the money. 
One of these days I need to put the mufflers on EBay.

 

For now, if anyone is interested drop me a line and I’ll make you a heck of a 
deal. I can send dimensions and photos.

 

 

Rick Brass

Imzadi  C&C 38 mk 2

la Belle Aurore C&C 25 mk1

Washington, NC

 

 

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of PME via 
CnC-List
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2015 7:17 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Stus-List Landfall 38 lift muffler

 

Hi,

 

I just rebuilt the 3QM30 which I received when I purchased Johanna Rose.  The 
previous owner had the engine removed and dismantled, and I received the engine 
as a bare block with boxes of rusty parts.   It was a real basket case.This 
weekend I managed to shoehorn the engine back in, and now I am at the point 
where I need to install a lift muffler.   

 

It looks like there was one in a small space on the port side of the engine as 
there is a bulkhead hole the size of an exhaust hose.  But his space looks too 
small for a vernalift-like waterlock muffler(and a little high relative to the 
exhaust elbow).I don’t have the original muffler, so I need to purchase a 
new one.  Has any LF38 owners purchased a replacement muffler?  I would be 
interested in hearing what you choose and your configuration.  

 

I hope to be back afloat soon. It’s been slow working only on weekends...

 

 

Thanks for any insight,

 

 

-
Paul Eugenio
1981 C&C Landfall 38
S/V Johanna Rose
Carrabelle, FL





 

 

___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of 
page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com

Re: Stus-List Window Installation - 1985 41

[Rick Brass via CnC-List]

3M makes a product just for removing silicone residue. Acetone doesn't
really work very well. Even with the 3M product, getting all the residue off
is a fastidious process but essential if you are going to get anything else
to stick.

 

And as someone else said, don't even think of 5200. It won't stick to the
window material.

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Rex &
Jennifer Delay via CnC-List
Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2015 7:19 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Stus-List Window Installation - 1985 41

 

We have a relatively new to us 1985 41.  The windows and hatches had been
replaced by the previous owner.  Hatches were done right, the side windows
were bedded in silicone, not right.  I had to re-bed one of them already but
did not get all traces of the silicone off so it did not take.  Need to do
it again as soon as possible which will involve removing the window,
scraping clean and then wiping the cabin side with acetone and re-bedding
with 5200.  The question is - there are no mechanical fastenings?  Should I
add screws every 4" or so or create some sort of method to press the windows
in place while the 5200 sets?  Anyone come up with the perfect jig to do
this or is it better to add screws?  Large custom bar clamps?

 

Rex & Jennifer Delay

www. Ghostlake.com  

www.ghostlakesailing.com  

 

___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of 
page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com

Re: Stus-List Window Installation - 1985 41

[Chuck S via CnC-List]

Hi Francois, 
Please get that information? The rain gutter sounds interesting. did he use 
screws? 


Chuck 
Resolute 
1990 C&C 34R 
Broad Creek, Magothy River, Md 

- Original Message -

From: "Jean-Francois J Rivard via CnC-List"  
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com, "cenelson"  
Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2015 4:15:48 PM 
Subject: Stus-List Window Installation - 1985 41 



Hi Charlie, 
My 34+ were replaced a few years back (Same design as yours) and they were 
glued in place. It was done by the "Guru" on the lake and they are tight / 
waterproof after about 5 years.. 

I was told that it was a very difficult thing to do as there is a curve on the 
portlights. I was also told that he did it by using adhesive and using weights 
to hold it in place while the adhesive was curing. He did a really nice job and 
even made a "Rain gutter" indentation in the top bead for the water to be 
channelled down.. 

I can contact him to get the type of adhesive and more details on the process 
if you want 

Good Luck, 

Best regards, 

-Francois Rivard 
1990 34+ "Take Five" 
Lake Lanier, GA 
___ 

Email address: 
CnC-List@cnc-list.com 
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of 
page at: 
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com 


___

Email address:
CnC-List@cnc-list.com
To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of 
page at:
http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com