Re: Stus-List JAM vs Spinnaker Racing

[Rick Brass via CnC-List]

Could Be worse, Joe:

 

10 or 12 years ago I was in a 100 Statute Mile overnight race called the 
Albemarle 100. It was about 2 AM, I was steering and 1 crew on deck trimming 
the spin while we went downwind on a very broad reach with the ½ oz. spin up in 
5 or 6 knots apparent. 

 

Every once in a while there would be a puff and the apparent would come forward 
and get to 8-9 knots or so. Boat would start to round up and I’d push the wheel 
down to keep the boat on track through the puff. It happened several times. It 
was quite satisfying – even exhilarating.




Then came a bigger puff. The apparent got to 12 or 13 and the boat was rounding 
up hard. I pushed the wheel down as normal, but the boat kept rounding and the 
boat started to broach. Apparent kept climbing towards 15-16, and I pushed 
harder.

 

Then I felt the flow detach from the rudder and it swung to the stop. I had 
about enough time to think “OH, F**“ as the boat went to about 45 degrees 
of heel (I swear it felt like more!), the spin exploded, and the boat snapped 
back to having the mast vertical (there’s a big ass righting moment on a 38-2, 
especially after I added the keel bulb) on a course almost 90 degrees to 
starboard of our original one.

 

My SO at the time (I hate to call her the Admiral) came blasting up the 
companionway screaming like a banshee. Seems she’d been in the head… the 
extreme heel had caused the bolts on the toilet seat to snap so she fell back 
against the side of the compartment… then when the boat snapped upright she got 
sling-shoted right through the door on the head. Man, was she pi**ed!

 

But, at least, she didn’t give a rats patoot about the almost new racing 
spinnaker I’d just destroyed.

 

Rick Brass

Washington, NC

 

 

 

From: "Della Barba, Joe" mailto:joe.della.ba...@ssa.gov> > 
To: "cnc-list@cnc-list.com  " 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> > 
Sent: 12/19/2019 11:23 AM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List JAM vs Spinnaker Racing 

During an informal race up the Chester with a C 40 it was just my wife on 
board with me managing the chute. We had to harden up to a beam reach for a 
section of the S-turning river right when a big gust hit and launched 
red-white-and-blue nylon confetti all over the river :(

I had the unenviable task of informing my wife those bits of nylon were going 
to cost more than what her car was worth to replace.

On the plus side all the luff tapes held, we had an empty triangle still flying!

 

 

Joe Della Barba

Coquina

 

 

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Stus-List Racing

[Robert Abbott via CnC-List]

RacingI don't do it anymore.   But when I raced, I raced mostly with 
a core of 5 good friends, one my brother.


I learned a lot over many years, on different boats, doing different 
jobs, full crew and short crew days, in all kinds of conditions. Over 
the years racing, I have spent some time on the foredeck... no one else 
wanted do it.   Some days I thought that was a good thing, some days it 
was not so greata sail change down in a heavy building breeze 
bouncing around up front in the spray...yea, this is fun.


Now doing a spinnaker peel right felt really good.especially in the 
middle of the fleet where everyone gets to see it done, and done 
smoothly.  Head sails changes are done regularly but changing a 
spinnaker under sail could only be done smoothly if you had practiced 
it.  We had some good races and we had some bad races. And we spent time 
practicing.    We practiced to the point where, for example, where I 
could put my hand on a halyard and the pit man knew exactly what halyard 
and what to do with it without me shouting me back a command.


After a race, the beers were open for the passage home.  After the boat 
was docked. sails packed, etc. the first half hour was spent talking 
about the racewhat did we do wrong, what went right. After that we 
normally got juvenile.


In 1995, I wanted something different from racingbought a Kirby 25 
that we raced against as our main boat for boat competitor, the J24 
fleet with 4 of the 5 original amigosme and 3 of the amigos left my 
friend's C 34R to race the K25...racing is totally different when 
you are on the helm and not on the foredeck when you get to a mark and 
there are 15 other boats there compared to normal handicap racing where 
twenty minutes after the start the fleet spreads out.


No matter how you choose to race, it helps a lot if the crew can size up 
the competition, decide where they expect to place in their respective 
fleetbottom 3rd, middle 3rd, or top 3rd.  If you can get the crew to 
talk about this and agree, saves a lot of different expectations among crew.


Racing is 50% boat, 50% crew and 50% luck on any given day.  I have had 
the good fortune to have benefited from all three, and in a few races, 
all three!


Robert Abbott
AZURA
C 32 #277
Halifax, N.S.


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Re: Stus-List Tips for finding and keeping racing crew

[Rick Brass via CnC-List]

Agreed!

 

Although we do have a tendency to be overly analytical and dependent on 
technology. Must work to stay in touch with our intuitive side and “feel” the 
boat.

 

BTW, I had a high school buddy who went to Michigan Tech . Visited him in the 
winter of 68-69 and my most vivid memory is going tobogganing out of a second 
story dorm window, on the snow drifts that built against the windward side of 
the building.

 

Rick Brass

Imzadi  C 38 mk2 #47

la Belle Aurore  C 25 mk1 #225

BSME, General Motors Institute, 1973

 

 

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of schiller via 
CnC-List
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2019 7:12 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: schiller 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Tips for finding and keeping racing crew

 

Engineers Rule!

Neil Schiller
1983 C 35-3, #028, "Grace"
Whitehall, Michigan
BSME, Michigan Tech 1977

 

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Re: Stus-List JAM vs Spinnaker Racing

[David Risch via CnC-List]

"Man puts it up and God takes it down"... Ted Turner sometime in the 70s.

Sent from my Android. Please forgive typos. Thank you.


From: CnC-List  on behalf of Michael Brown via 
CnC-List 
Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2019 8:44:56 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Cc: Michael Brown 
Subject: Re: Stus-List JAM vs Spinnaker Racing

Let me guess, easiest take down ever.

Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1




From: "Della Barba, Joe" 
To: "cnc-list@cnc-list.com" 
Sent: 12/19/2019 11:23 AM
Subject: Re: Stus-List JAM vs Spinnaker Racing


During an informal race up the Chester with a C 40 it was just my wife on 
board with me managing the chute. We had to harden up to a beam reach for a 
section of the S-turning river right when a big gust hit and launched 
red-white-and-blue nylon confetti all over the river :(

I had the unenviable task of informing my wife those bits of nylon were going 
to cost more than what her car was worth to replace.

On the plus side all the luff tapes held, we had an empty triangle still flying!





Joe Della Barba

Coquina



From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of David Risch 
via CnC-List
Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2019 11:15 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: David Risch 
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Stus-List JAM vs Spinnaker Racing



Breakage…don’t forget the breakage - 



David F. Risch

(401) 419-4650



From: CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com>> On Behalf 
Of Dennis C. via CnC-List
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2019 10:48 PM
To: CnClist mailto:CnC-List@cnc-list.com>>
Cc: Dennis C. mailto:capt...@gmail.com>>
Subject: Re: Stus-List JAM vs Spinnaker Racing



Yes, spinnakers can nearly double your racing costs.  Years ago, at the height 
of Touche's racing program, we had 0.6, 0.75 and 1.5 oz chutes, two part high 
tech Dyneema/StaSet spin sheets, Harken carbo-ratchet tweakers (twings), custom 
chute launch bags, double pole downhaul(goes down each side of cabin and is 
trimmed in cockpit), a spinnaker halyard parking cleat, a "defraculator" (don't 
ask), light air spin sheets and probably a few more boat bucks of stuff I can't 
recall.  I'm guessing all that adds up to somewhere around 10 big boat bucks.



You don't need to dive in that deep.  A used chute, a few blocks and some old 
sheets will start you off just fine.



Yes, you can race spin on a budget and still have a lot of fun.  The best way 
to experiennce spin racing and learn is on someone else's boat.  That's what I 
did.  I spent several years crewing before I bought Touche' and started my own 
racing program.



Dennis C.

Touche' 35-1 #83

Mandeville, LA

On Wed, Dec 18, 2019, 7:37 PM Charlie Nelson via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:

You are correct regarding expense--spin racing just requires more of 
everything--crew, boat, gear, sails, food, drinks, etc.



I like to race in what my crew prefers and also in the most competitive arena. 
Locally at least, the JAM fleet is not competitive enough for us--except for 
those whose high ratings in light air make it impossible to race fairly against 
them.



Of course I like to win but more importantly I want race in a competitive 
fleet, even if I come in last but close to my competitors. Winning most of the 
time in our local JAM fleet is not as much fun as busting our collective 
as...es to come in last among the best local racers.



That's my story and I am sticking to it!!



Charlie Nelson

Water Phantom

C 36 XL/kcb




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every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

Stus-List Racing

[Robert Abbott via CnC-List]

RacingI don't do it anymoremaybe 3 times in the last 13 years on 
someone else's boat.   But when I raced, I raced mostly with a core of 5 
good friends, one my brother.


When I started racing I really didn't know very much about all that was 
involvedthought I didI still don't know all there is to know but 
I learned a lot over many years, on different boats, doing different 
jobs, full crew and short crew days, in all kinds of conditions.  Over 
the years, I have spent some time on the foredecknot that I wanted 
to but because no one else would or could do it.   Some days I thought 
that was a good thing, some days it was not so greata sail change 
down in a heavy building breeze bouncing around up front in the 
spray...yea, this is fun.


Now doing a spinnaker peel right felt really good.especially in the 
middle of the fleet where everyone gets to see it done, and done 
smoothly.  Head sails changes are done regularly but changing a 
spinnaker under sail could only be done smoothly if you had practiced 
it.  We had some good races and we had some bad races. And we spent time 
practicing.    We practiced to the point where, for example, where I 
could put my hand on a halyard and the pit man knew exactly what halyard 
and what to do with it without me shouting me back a command.


After a race, the beers were open for the passage home.  After the boat 
was docked. sails packed, etc. the first half hour was spent talking 
about the racewhat did we do wrong, what went right. After that we 
normally got juvenile.


In 1995, I wanted something different from racing, more boat to boat 
racing and I wanted to be in the cockpit and on the helmbought a 
Kirby 25 that we raced against as our main boat for boat competitor, the 
J24 fleet with the 4 of the 5 original amigosme and 3 of the amigos 
left my friend's C 34R to race the K25...racing is totally 
different when you get to a mark and there are 15 other boats there 
compared to normal handicap racing where tenty minutes after the start 
the fleet spreads out.


No matter how you choose to race, it helps a lot when the crew decides 
where they expect to place in their respective fleetbottom 3rd, 
middle 3rd, or top 3rd.  If you can get the crew to talk about this and 
agree, bid help.


Racing is 50% boat, 50% crew and 50% luck on any given day.  I have had 
the good fortune to have had all three, and in a few races, all three!


Robert Abbott
AZURA
C 32 #277
Halifax, N.S.




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every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
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Stus-List Removing shrouds

[Robert Abbott via CnC-List]

My 32 has Navtec rod riggingthe shrouds are connected with what I 
called a 'thru-bolt' a bolt that goes through the mast and is 
threaded on both endsthe tangs screw to the thru-bolt and the 
shrouds are kept in place by the tangs.


When I got the boat in 2006, the rig was completely disassembled when it 
arrived by truckputting it together, I noticed the thru-bolts were 
about a third worn through by the chaffing of the wire/rope 
halyards.the thru-bolt(s) were aluminum...the next season, I took 
them to a machine shop and had two SS trhu-bolts made.


With my rig, the shroud will rotate or move to the correct angle down if 
all is tightened properly not too tight and not too loose.


Robert Abbott
AZURA
C 32 #277
Halifax, N.S.


On 12/19/2019 9:47 PM, Matthew L. Wolford via CnC-List wrote:
I replaced the rod rigging shrouds on my 1978 34.  As I recall, for 
that vintage Navtec there is a piece of threaded pipe that goes 
through the mast and connects to the shrouds on each side.  There are 
stainless screw caps that screw onto the pipe on both sides to hold 
the shrouds in place. Once you unscrew the cap, the shroud can be 
removed. However, I also remember that the angle of the shroud to the 
mast had to be correct – like 90 degrees.  It is easy to do with the 
mast on the ground.  If the mast is stepped, this may pose a problem.
Of course, different vintages of hardware may have different methods 
of disassembly.




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Re: Stus-List Removing shrouds

[Matthew L. Wolford via CnC-List]

I replaced the rod rigging shrouds on my 1978 34.  As I recall, for that 
vintage Navtec there is a piece of threaded pipe that goes through the mast and 
connects to the shrouds on each side.  There are stainless screw caps that 
screw onto the pipe on both sides to hold the shrouds in place.  Once you 
unscrew the cap, the shroud can be removed.  However, I also remember that the 
angle of the shroud to the mast had to be correct – like 90 degrees.  It is 
easy to do with the mast on the ground.  If the mast is stepped, this may pose 
a problem.

Of course, different vintages of hardware may have different methods of 
disassembly.

From: Adam Hayden via CnC-List 
Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2019 8:26 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Cc: Adam Hayden 
Subject: Stus-List Removing shrouds

Hello fellow Listers,

I noticed after hurricane Doirion that the turnbuckle on the lower shroud had 
loosened substantially and now in heavier wind it comes loose almost as though 
the threads are worn or stripped.  I want to replace it but I don't know how to 
remove it from the rod rigging.  Am I able to replace it without or is there a 
trick to disconnecting the shroud at the mast?

Thanks
Adam Hayden.

Get Outlook for Android



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every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
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___

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every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

Re: Stus-List JAM vs Spinnaker Racing

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

Let me guess, easiest take down ever.

Michael Brown

Windburn
C 30-1





 From:   "Della Barba, Joe"  
 To:   "cnc-list@cnc-list.com"  
 Sent:   12/19/2019 11:23 AM 
 Subject:   Re: Stus-List JAM vs Spinnaker Racing 


 
 
During an informal race up the Chester with a C 40 it was just my wife on 
board with me managing the chute. We had to harden up to a beam reach for a 
section of the S-turning river right when a big gust hit  and launched 
red-white-and-blue nylon confetti all over the river L 
I had the unenviable task of informing my wife those bits of nylon were going 
to cost more than what her car was worth to replace. 
On the plus side all the luff tapes held, we had an empty triangle still 
flying! 
  
  
 
Joe Della Barba 
Coquina 
  
 
 
From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of David Risch 
via CnC-List
 Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2019 11:15 AM
 To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
 Cc: David Risch 
 Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Stus-List JAM vs Spinnaker Racing 
  
Breakage…don’t forget the breakage -  
  
David F. Risch 
(401) 419-4650 
  
From: CnC-List  On Behalf Of Dennis C. via 
CnC-List
 Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2019 10:48 PM
 To: CnClist 
 Cc: Dennis C. 
 Subject: Re: Stus-List JAM vs Spinnaker Racing 
  
 
Yes, spinnakers can nearly double your racing costs.  Years ago, at the height 
of Touche's racing program, we had 0.6, 0.75 and 1.5 oz chutes, two part high 
tech Dyneema/StaSet spin sheets, Harken carbo-ratchet tweakers (twings), custom 
 chute launch bags, double pole downhaul(goes down each side of cabin and is 
trimmed in cockpit), a spinnaker halyard parking cleat, a "defraculator" (don't 
ask), light air spin sheets and probably a few more boat bucks of stuff I can't 
recall.  I'm guessing  all that adds up to somewhere around 10 big boat bucks. 
 
  
 
You don't need to dive in that deep.  A used chute, a few blocks and some old 
sheets will start you off just fine.   
 
  
 
Yes, you can race spin on a budget and still have a lot of fun.  The best way 
to experiennce spin racing and learn is on someone else's boat.  That's what I 
did.  I spent several years crewing before I bought Touche' and started my own  
racing program.   
 
  
 
Dennis C. 
 
Touche' 35-1 #83 
 
Mandeville, LA 
 
 
On Wed, Dec 18, 2019, 7:37 PM Charlie Nelson via CnC-List 
 wrote: 
 
You are correct regarding expense--spin racing just requires more of 
everything--crew, boat, gear, sails, food, drinks, etc.  
 
  
 
I like to race in what my crew prefers and also in the most competitive arena. 
Locally at least, the JAM fleet is not competitive enough for us--except for 
those  whose high ratings in light air make it impossible to race fairly 
against them.  
 
  
 
Of course I like to win but more importantly I want race in a competitive 
fleet, even if I come in last but close to my competitors. Winning most of the 
time in our  local JAM fleet is not as much fun as busting our collective 
as...es to come in last among the best local racers.  
 
  
 
 
 
 
 
That's my story and I am sticking to it!! 
 
  
 
Charlie Nelson 
 
Water Phantom 
 
C 36 XL/kcb 
 
  
  ___

Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

Stus-List Racing

[Robert Abbott via CnC-List]

RacingI don't do it anymoremaybe 3 times in the last 13 years on 
someone else's boat.   But when I raced, I raced mostly with a core of 5 
good friends, one my brother.


When I started racing I really didn't know very much about all that was 
involvedthought I didI still don't know all there is to know but 
I learned a lot over many years, on different boats, doing different 
jobs, full crew and short crew days, in all kinds of conditions.  Over 
the years, I have spent some time on the foredecknot that I wanted 
to but because no one else would or could do it.   Some days I thought 
that was a good thing, some days it was not so greata sail change 
down in a heavy building breeze bouncing around up front in the 
spray...yea, this is fun.


Now doing a spinnaker peel right felt really good.especially in the 
middle of the fleet where everyone gets to see it done, and done 
smoothly.  Head sails changes are done regularly but changing a 
spinnaker under sail could only be done smoothly if you had practiced 
it.  We had some good races and we had some bad races. And we spent time 
practicing.    We practiced to the point where, for example, where I 
could put my hand on a halyard and the pit man knew exactly what halyard 
and what to do with it without me shouting me back a command.


After a race, the beers were open for the passage home.  After the boat 
was docked. sails packed, etc. the first half hour was spent talking 
about the racewhat did we do wrong, what went right. After that we 
normally got juvenile.


In 1995, I wanted something different from racing, more boat to boat 
racing and I wanted to be in the cockpit and on the helmbought a 
Kirby 25 that we raced against as our main boat for boat competitor, the 
J24 fleet with the 4 of the 5 original amigosme and 3 of the amigos 
left my friend's C 34R to race the K25...racing is totally 
different when you get to a mark and there are 15 other boats there 
compared to normal handicap racing where tenty minutes after the start 
the fleet spreads out.


No matter how you choose to race, it helps a lot when the crew decides 
where they expect to place in their respective fleetbottom 3rd, 
middle 3rd, or top 3rd.  If you can get the crew to talk about this and 
agree, bid help.


Racing is 50% boat, 50% crew and 50% luck on any given day.  I have had 
the good fortune to have had all three, and in a few races, all three!


Robert Abbott
AZURA
C 32 #277
Halifax, N.S.



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every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

Stus-List Removing shrouds

[Adam Hayden via CnC-List]

Hello fellow Listers,

I noticed after hurricane Doirion that the turnbuckle on the lower shroud had 
loosened substantially and now in heavier wind it comes loose almost as though 
the threads are worn or stripped.  I want to replace it but I don't know how to 
remove it from the rod rigging.  Am I able to replace it without or is there a 
trick to disconnecting the shroud at the mast?

Thanks
Adam Hayden.

Get Outlook for Android
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every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

Re: Stus-List SailTimer Experiences

[Randy Stafford via CnC-List]

I have to confess to a bit of sandbagging here - I have purchased SailTimer 
products in the past.  And I just had a rather shocking interaction with the 
company.  Before sharing it I wanted to survey other peoples’ experience.

Dave’s recounting below of his interaction with the company reminded me that we 
discussed this before: 
http://cnc-list.com/pipermail/cnc-list_cnc-list.com/2019-October/208921.html 
. 
 That was just two months ago, further demonstrating that I must have 
Alzheimer’s since I didn’t remember.

Also it appears that SailTimer, Inc. was a member of Stu’s List in July 2016: 
http://cnc-list.com/pipermail/cnc-list_cnc-list.com/2016-July/188206.html 
.  
Since only administrators of Stu’s List can see current membership, and I’m not 
an administrator, I don’t know whether SailTimer, Inc. is still a member of the 
list.  Stu can you please answer that?

Suffice it to say that Dave’s findings ("I found them to be condescending, 
obtuse, ignorant, confusing and many other adjectives that I won’t repeat”) are 
still applicable.

I also asked the same questions from my original post below in the C Owners’ 
group on Facebook.  There, one Morgan Ellis commented the following:

I was given one of his wind instruments as gift last winter. I have yet to 
receive a functional unit. Mr. Summers is the single worst businessman I have 
ever dealt with. His products do not stand up to even lowest possible standard 
as he is not even able to ship a unit without it being damaged. He has been 
promising an 'upgraded' replacement for a year now and still nothing. He claims 
to have a 'team' working for him yet all emails answered by his customer 
service are clearly written by only himself. And he gets very upset when you 
call him out on this point. DO NOT do business with this man.

It would seem that SailTimer, Inc. is earning a consistent reputation as 
observed by multiple people here, on the Facebook group, and elsewhere on the 
Internet.

Thank You,
Randy Stafford
S/V Grenadine
C 30 MK I #79
Ken Caryl, CO

> On Dec 19, 2019, at 10:03 AM, David Knecht via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> So you poked something I wasted too much time on so I am going to waste more 
> time venting about Sailtimer:
> 
> I have no experience with their hardware, but I was considering purchasing 
> the wind instrument.  It looks like an interesting piece of hardware, and I 
> was concerned about my TackTick wireless wind sensor being 7 years old.  I 
> sent the Tacktick to Raymarine and they checked it out and found it good as 
> new, so I don’t plan to “upgrade”.  In the process, I had many emails with 
> Sailtimer regarding how the app worked, because I am a very data driven 
> racer, and it looked like it might provide some interesting/useful data.  I 
> found them to be condescending, obtuse, ignorant, confusing and many other 
> adjectives that I won’t repeat.  I tried very hard to get them to explain how 
> their algorithm dealt with wind shifts (my primary concern for a wind sensor) 
> and while I think I finally got them to agree that wind shifts are important 
> in racing, I still have no idea what the software provides in terms of useful 
> data on upwind performance and shifts.  It seems like it might give you some 
> data on how to steer relative to polars, but I am not sure how useful the 
> implementation is in the real world.  I don’t think it provides anything 
> useful on wind shifts.  Here is a sample of the kind of gobbledygook I 
> received:
> 
>>> Headers and lifts are actually another antiquated racing method, that are 
>>> very clumsy in the age of GPS and computers.  They were great in the 1920s 
>>> when it was impossible to do trigonometry every second in a boat heeled 
>>> over and crashing through waves.  But they make you choose some arbitrary 
>>> length of time to get an average wind direction.  And they make an 
>>> assumption that the wind is going to go back to average later.  If a lift 
>>> happens for 2 minutes, why call that a lift and not say that it is the real 
>>> wind?  Too many assumptions.
> 
> I disagree.  The decision of whether a shift is 2 min or 10 min or 10 seconds 
> is a key decision a racer makes and calling them right is what wins races.  
> They seem to think it is unimportant.  I sent them a pdf that showed why you 
> sailed lifts and not headers to shorten the distance to the weather mark.  I 
> got this in response:
> 
> This again is an oversimplification.  All sailors know that you cannot simply 
> shorten the distance (otherwise you would try to go at 2 knots nearly 
> straight upwind). (DAK: in fact all racers know that what they say here is 
> wrong.  This is not about trying to pinch to go straight to the mark.  This 
> is about sailing lifts to shorten the distance while sailing optimal on each 
> tack.  This is 

Re: Stus-List SailTimer Experiences

[dwight veinot via CnC-List]

Racing a sailboat against other sail boats of similar speed potential is an
art as much as a science but good science used the right way can help.
Still like DC said “No Excuse to Lose”

On Thu, Dec 19, 2019 at 4:34 PM Francois Rivard via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> Hi John,
>
> I would definitely consider it / most likely get it.  I use a combination
> of Sail Racer app on my phone and the layline function / Tack "A" vs tack
> "B" on my (still killer) B Zeus2 Touch charplotter. Sail Racer is really
> cool to have for starting line tactics and the B does give you nice
> insights on one tack vs the other and how quick you're getting to the mark.
>
> Like anything else in racing any vehicle, short of outright cheating there
> are no silver bullets.  The VMG on mark and VMG on wind  / time to mark are
> just more data points that you include in the (complex) overall picture /
> pick your best course.  I'm a bit of a data nerd (I do the stuff for a
> living) but to me, having the extra data - info is really cool and useful.
>
> As David mentioned, there are limitations.  The wind shifts and current /
> tide effect should be issues if the system is sophisticated enough to
> understand drift which the B and most charplotters / racing computers
> do.  It's also very sophisticated in optimizing the course as it precisely
> knows your heading / your over the water  and SOG speed  / the true /
> apparent wind speed and wind direction. All that is gathered via GPS, the
> paddle wheel, and wind vane on the mast which are all networked together
> and very precise.   On the other hand sometimes my recommended layline is
> 300 yards in the woods :-)  It knows where I am but the layline function
> doesn't seem to know the terrain.  So you have to take it with a grain of
> salt.
>
> I'll never forget on one race I was about 10 boat lengths behind my group
> / everybody was doing a long tack to get to the windward mark. I checked
> the plotter and it recommended doing a couple short tacks.  I followed the
> advice / ended-up 10 boat lengths ahead of everyone on the other side of
> the marker / won the race by a good margin..
>
> Your actual mileage may vary.   As for me, I'm getting a wifi bridge for
> my NMEA 2000 network so I can get even more cool metrics via the phone /
> tablet app networked to all of the above over the wifi :-)
>
> Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!
>
> -Francois Rivard
> 1990 34+ "Take Five"
> Lake Lanier
> ___
>
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each
> and every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list -
> use PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>
> --
Sent from Gmail Mobile
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Re: Stus-List JAM vs Spinnaker Racing

[dwight veinot via CnC-List]

Why i said practice as a crew first. That kite is really powerful
sometimes. Pays to have your crew know how. OTOH i have used my tri radial
kite with only 1 inexperienced crew on the wheel. Great until the apparent
wind angle changed. We lived and Alianna survived too

On Thu, Dec 19, 2019 at 12:40 PM Luke Wolbrink via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> Making the plunge from JAM to Spin doesn't need to be terrifying or
> expensive (unless you want it to.) You can find a used chute for a couple
> hundred bucks online and as others mentioned a few blocks and line and
> you're going. Once you've learned to tame the pole and kite then go and
> spend the money on those fancy black sails and a new properly cut colorful
> one... or dont. Iv'e found that we loose more often not becasue we have
> older sails but because we blow a tack or spinnaker douse. All of the money
> in the world won't make up the 2 minutes you spend trying to get that
> hourglass out of the kite.
>
> That said, Chicago has a pretty robust racing scene on weekends with 5
> major clubs working together to provide lots of events and variety. In
> order to help develop those white sail JAM guys and get them out on
> weekends where things are more competitive we started what is referred to
> as our Casual series of races. The idea is to remove as many of the
> barriers as possible; it's like a drug once you've gotten a taste you're
> hooked. Basically the RC assigns a phrf rating to boats without a
> certificate and then the start is a 15 minute rolling start. That way folks
> that are intimidated by jockeying around can hang back and not be
> penalized. The course are usually around 8-10 miles long so plenty of time
> to make maneuvers etc. We've typically seen 10-20 boats out on a given
> saturday and after a few seasons we're starting to see some of them come
> out into the racing fleet.
>
> Cheers,
> Luke
> 1985 35-3 Zella
> ___
>
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each
> and every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list -
> use PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>
> --
Sent from Gmail Mobile
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Re: Stus-List JAM vs Spinnaker Racing

[dwight veinot via CnC-List]

Bet she liked that sail

On Thu, Dec 19, 2019 at 12:24 PM Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> During an informal race up the Chester with a C 40 it was just my wife
> on board with me managing the chute. We had to harden up to a beam reach
> for a section of the S-turning river right when a big gust hit and launched
> red-white-and-blue nylon confetti all over the river L
>
> I had the unenviable task of informing my wife those bits of nylon were
> going to cost more than what her car was worth to replace.
>
> On the plus side all the luff tapes held, we had an empty triangle still
> flying!
>
>
>
>
>
> *Joe Della Barba*
>
> *Coquina*
>
>
>
> *From:* CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] *On Behalf Of *David
> Risch via CnC-List
> *Sent:* Thursday, December 19, 2019 11:15 AM
> *To:* cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> *Cc:* David Risch 
> *Subject:* [EXTERNAL] Re: Stus-List JAM vs Spinnaker Racing
>
>
>
> Breakage…don’t forget the breakage - 
>
>
>
> *David F. Risch*
>
> *(401) 419-4650*
>
>
>
> *From:* CnC-List  *On Behalf Of *Dennis C.
> via CnC-List
> *Sent:* Wednesday, December 18, 2019 10:48 PM
> *To:* CnClist 
> *Cc:* Dennis C. 
> *Subject:* Re: Stus-List JAM vs Spinnaker Racing
>
>
>
> Yes, spinnakers can nearly double your racing costs.  Years ago, at the
> height of Touche's racing program, we had 0.6, 0.75 and 1.5 oz chutes, two
> part high tech Dyneema/StaSet spin sheets, Harken carbo-ratchet tweakers
> (twings), custom chute launch bags, double pole downhaul(goes down each
> side of cabin and is trimmed in cockpit), a spinnaker halyard parking
> cleat, a "defraculator" (don't ask), light air spin sheets and probably a
> few more boat bucks of stuff I can't recall.  I'm guessing all that adds up
> to somewhere around 10 big boat bucks.
>
>
>
> You don't need to dive in that deep.  A used chute, a few blocks and some
> old sheets will start you off just fine.
>
>
>
> Yes, you can race spin on a budget and still have a lot of fun.  The best
> way to experiennce spin racing and learn is on someone else's boat.  That's
> what I did.  I spent several years crewing before I bought Touche' and
> started my own racing program.
>
>
>
> Dennis C.
>
> Touche' 35-1 #83
>
> Mandeville, LA
>
> On Wed, Dec 18, 2019, 7:37 PM Charlie Nelson via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
> You are correct regarding expense--spin racing just requires more of
> everything--crew, boat, gear, sails, food, drinks, etc.
>
>
>
> I like to race in what my crew prefers and also in the most competitive
> arena. Locally at least, the JAM fleet is not competitive enough for
> us--except for those whose high ratings in light air make it impossible to
> race fairly against them.
>
>
>
> Of course I like to win but more importantly I want race in a competitive
> fleet, even if I come in last but close to my competitors. Winning most of
> the time in our local JAM fleet is not as much fun as busting our
> collective as...es to come in last among the best local racers.
>
>
>
> That's my story and I am sticking to it!!
>
>
>
> Charlie Nelson
>
> Water Phantom
>
> C 36 XL/kcb
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
>
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each
> and every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list -
> use PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>
> --
Sent from Gmail Mobile
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Re: Stus-List SailTimer Experiences-Tacktick

[Neil Gallagher via CnC-List]

Thanks for all the replies.  Edd, my intention with hoisting a display 
up the mast was to replicate the mast rotation transmitter. Guess I'll 
keep messing with it since some seem to have decent performance with it.


Neil Gallagher
Weatherly, 35-1
Glen Cove NY

On 12/19/2019 2:59 PM, Edd Schillay via CnC-List wrote:

Neil,

It’s true — Your mast is a little too tall for the Tacktick system. 
What you need, about half way up the mast is a Mast Rotation 
Transmitter (T221). See: 
https://www.mygreenoutdoors.com/raymarine-wireless-mast-rotation-transmitter/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIsLywjL_C5gIVEfDACh0XzQkJEAQYAiABEgKoXPD_BwE 



This will relay the signal from the top of your mast down to your 
unit. And yeah — It’s pricey.


Great for normal sailing, but no way should you use any wireless 
system for racing. The system is just too slow and readings can get 
glitchy.


Also, you’ll need to put some kind of protection around it so that 
your jib doesn’t whack it off your mast on a windy day while tacking.


All the best,

Edd


Edd M. Schillay
Captain of the Starship Enterprise
C 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B
Venice Yacht Club | Venice Island, FL

Starship Enterprise's Captain's Log 





On Dec 19, 2019, at 2:46 PM, Gerald Fennessey via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:


Neil,

I had a Tacktick system on my  Morgan 30/2 and now on my C 35 mk3  
no issues what so ever.



Gerry Fennessey
Fianna 33



I had one om my 35/3 without issue.




-Original Message-
From: Joel Aronson via CnC-List >

To: cnc-list mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Cc: Joel Aronson mailto:joel.aron...@gmail.com>>
Sent: Thu, Dec 19, 2019 2:23 pm
Subject: Re: Stus-List SailTimer Experiences-Tacktick

FWIW,
I had one om my 35/3 without issue.

Joel

On Thu, Dec 19, 2019 at 2:18 PM Neil Gallagher via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:


Not trying to redirect the thread, but since you raised the topic
of Tacktick, I've been meaning to see what the list's response to
this might be.

I've had Tacktick (Raymarine) wind system for about 5 years, and
I've added inputs from GPS, speed/depth, so have a fair bit
invested in the system.  However, I've never really had
satisfactory performance with the wind sensor, it drops out more
that half the time, and for racing that makes it almost useless. 
This summer I put a new battery and bearings in the sensor, got
marginally better performance, then I tried hoisting one of my
displays up to the spreaders (don't ask) to see if it acts as a
relay to the sensors in the cockpit, and that didn't help much.
Finally got through to someone in the UK (I think) in Raymarine's
tech support, who pretty much told me that a 50' mast is really
too far for the wind sensor.

So my question too: what have others found with regards the the
Tacktick wind and at what mast height are you using them?

Neil Gallagher
Weatherly, 35-1
Glen Cove, NY



On Dec 19, 2019, at 13:43, John Conklin via CnC-List
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:


Wowza ! Nice rant :) lol 
Crazy  !! You just can’t make that stuff  up!
On another note how do you like the TackTick considering this
for Christmas request from Mrs Claus as I can use on both  the
C and the Etchells ! :)

John Conklin
S/V Halcyon



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--
Joel

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 Each and every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support 
the list - use PayPal to send contribution -- 
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray





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Re: Stus-List SailTimer Experiences

[Bill Coleman via CnC-List]

 " We have no way of knowing if it has been in storms "

 

OK, This just made me laugh out loud!!

 

(I’m trying to imagine Raymarine or B techs making a comment like this . . ..)

 

Bill

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of TERRY 
DAUDRICH via CnC-List
Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2019 2:24 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: TERRY DAUDRICH
Subject: Re: Stus-List SailTimer Experiences

 

Hi all, 

 

Been a lurker here for years and don't post because I don't own a C Still 
learn a ton of sailing and maintenance stuff tho and we have lots of owners at 
our club. 

 

Don't waste your time or money on this set up. I did and agree completely with 
David's comments. The latest unit has a replacement battery. Why do you think 
that is.? It's because they are very poor at charging up, holding a charge, 
and communicating even when standing on the pier with a direct line of sight to 
it. 

 

My wind cup bearings didn't last 2 weeks. " We have no way of knowing if it has 
been in storms " was there response. Really So this unit can't take storm 
force winds now? They sent me a rebuild kit. Great, I just have to climb my 
mast mid season to unbolt and rebuild it. After listening to it growl away it 
came down for good. 

 

Check out there responses to problems. Almost always the owners fault. 

 

Cheers, 

Terry D

Gimli YC

Lake Winnipeg 

 

On Wed., Dec. 18, 2019, 8:56 p.m. Randy Stafford via CnC-List, 
 wrote:

Listers-

Have any of you used products from SailTimer, e.g. their SailTimer App and 
SailTimer Wind Instrument?  If so, I’d appreciate hearing about your 
experiences with the products and the company.

The company is based in Halifax, Nova Scotia, and headed by Craig Summers.  
Anybody on this list know him, or other employees of the company?

Thank You,
Randy Stafford
S/V Grenadine
C 30 MK I #79
Ken Caryl, CO
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Re: Stus-List JAM vs Spinnaker Racing

[nausetbeach--- via CnC-List]

The “frac” line still helps stabilize the tip of the mast even if the boat has 
a stiff mast section, as once around the weather mark the backstay adjuster 
should be eased, which in turn may allow the mast tip to bounce around.  
Especially important to eliminate that bounce in light air and chop as that 
movement reduces any attachment of air flow on the spin.  

 

And, as Dennis just described, it allows the bow to set up the genoa for a 
quick hoist at the leeward mark.  Seconds matter in any competitive fleet…  

 

Brian

 

From: CnC-List  On Behalf Of Dennis C. via 
CnC-List
Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2019 3:22 PM
To: CnClist 
Cc: Dennis C. 
Subject: Re: Stus-List JAM vs Spinnaker Racing

 

Yep.  Probably more for show than increased performance.

 

Mine is a 3-4 foot length of line with an eye on one end and a snap shackle on 
the other.  Once the chute is set, the headsail should be immediately pre-fed 
and fed ready for hoisting at the leeward mark.  The eye of the defraculator is 
attached to the stemplate or headsail tack hook and the snap shackle is clipped 
to the head of the headsail.  The headsail halyard is tensioned pulling the 
masthead forward.  At the leeward mark, the bow person blows the defraculator 
snap shackle and the headsail is hoisted.

 

Dennis C.

Touche' 35-1 #83

Mandeville, LA

 

On Thu, Dec 19, 2019 at 10:39 AM Jeff Helsdingen via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> > wrote:

Pulls the top of the mast forward when going downwind with the kite up. Bit 
surprised it does anything with a sturdy mast like the one on a 35-1. 

 

Jeff

 

On Thu., Dec. 19, 2019, 11:27 a.m. Randy Stafford via CnC-List, 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> > wrote:

Hey Dennis - what’s a defraculator?  :)

 

Cheers,

Randy

 

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Stus-List SailTimer Experiences

[Francois Rivard via CnC-List]

I meant to say Wind shifts / tide / currents should NOT be issues...

Merry Christmas!

-Francois
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Stus-List SailTimer Experiences

[Francois Rivard via CnC-List]

Hi John,

I would definitely consider it / most likely get it.  I use a combination
of Sail Racer app on my phone and the layline function / Tack "A" vs tack
"B" on my (still killer) B Zeus2 Touch charplotter. Sail Racer is really
cool to have for starting line tactics and the B does give you nice
insights on one tack vs the other and how quick you're getting to the mark.

Like anything else in racing any vehicle, short of outright cheating there
are no silver bullets.  The VMG on mark and VMG on wind  / time to mark are
just more data points that you include in the (complex) overall picture /
pick your best course.  I'm a bit of a data nerd (I do the stuff for a
living) but to me, having the extra data - info is really cool and useful.

As David mentioned, there are limitations.  The wind shifts and current /
tide effect should be issues if the system is sophisticated enough to
understand drift which the B and most charplotters / racing computers
do.  It's also very sophisticated in optimizing the course as it precisely
knows your heading / your over the water  and SOG speed  / the true /
apparent wind speed and wind direction. All that is gathered via GPS, the
paddle wheel, and wind vane on the mast which are all networked together
and very precise.   On the other hand sometimes my recommended layline is
300 yards in the woods :-)  It knows where I am but the layline function
doesn't seem to know the terrain.  So you have to take it with a grain of
salt.

I'll never forget on one race I was about 10 boat lengths behind my group /
everybody was doing a long tack to get to the windward mark. I checked the
plotter and it recommended doing a couple short tacks.  I followed the
advice / ended-up 10 boat lengths ahead of everyone on the other side of
the marker / won the race by a good margin..

Your actual mileage may vary.   As for me, I'm getting a wifi bridge for my
NMEA 2000 network so I can get even more cool metrics via the phone /
tablet app networked to all of the above over the wifi :-)

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!

-Francois Rivard
1990 34+ "Take Five"
Lake Lanier
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Re: Stus-List JAM vs Spinnaker Racing

[Dennis C. via CnC-List]

Yep.  Probably more for show than increased performance.

Mine is a 3-4 foot length of line with an eye on one end and a snap shackle
on the other.  Once the chute is set, the headsail should be immediately
pre-fed and fed ready for hoisting at the leeward mark.  The eye of the
defraculator is attached to the stemplate or headsail tack hook and the
snap shackle is clipped to the head of the headsail.  The headsail halyard
is tensioned pulling the masthead forward.  At the leeward mark, the bow
person blows the defraculator snap shackle and the headsail is hoisted.

Dennis C.
Touche' 35-1 #83
Mandeville, LA

On Thu, Dec 19, 2019 at 10:39 AM Jeff Helsdingen via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> Pulls the top of the mast forward when going downwind with the kite up.
> Bit surprised it does anything with a sturdy mast like the one on a 35-1.
>
> Jeff
>
> On Thu., Dec. 19, 2019, 11:27 a.m. Randy Stafford via CnC-List, <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
>> Hey Dennis - what’s a defraculator?  :)
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Randy
>>
>>
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Re: Stus-List SailTimer Experiences-Tacktick

[James Bibb via CnC-List]

I’ve had some good results from the newer B Wireless sensor.  It seems to be 
very active for my 54’ mast.  

Very happy not to have to re-feed a cable down a very small diameter mast 
section. 

James Bibb
SV Darwin’s Folly
34-36R 1991

> On Dec 19, 2019, at 10:59 AM, Edd Schillay via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> Neil,
> 
> It’s true — Your mast is a little too tall for the Tacktick system. What you 
> need, about half way up the mast is a Mast Rotation Transmitter (T221). See: 
> https://www.mygreenoutdoors.com/raymarine-wireless-mast-rotation-transmitter/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIsLywjL_C5gIVEfDACh0XzQkJEAQYAiABEgKoXPD_BwE
>  
> 
>  
> 
> This will relay the signal from the top of your mast down to your unit. And 
> yeah — It’s pricey. 
> 
> Great for normal sailing, but no way should you use any wireless system for 
> racing. The system is just too slow and readings can get glitchy. 
> 
> Also, you’ll need to put some kind of protection around it so that your jib 
> doesn’t whack it off your mast on a windy day while tacking. 
> 
> All the best,
> 
> Edd
> 
> 
> Edd M. Schillay
> Captain of the Starship Enterprise
> C 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B
> Venice Yacht Club | Venice Island, FL
> 
> Starship Enterprise's Captain's Log 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Dec 19, 2019, at 2:46 PM, Gerald Fennessey via CnC-List 
> mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
> 
> Neil,
> 
> I had a Tacktick system on my  Morgan 30/2 and now on my C 35 mk3  no 
> issues what so ever. 
> 
> 
> Gerry Fennessey
> Fianna 33
> 
> 
> 
> I had one om my 35/3 without issue.
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Joel Aronson via CnC-List  >
> To: cnc-list mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
> Cc: Joel Aronson mailto:joel.aron...@gmail.com>>
> Sent: Thu, Dec 19, 2019 2:23 pm
> Subject: Re: Stus-List SailTimer Experiences-Tacktick
> 
> FWIW,
> I had one om my 35/3 without issue.
> 
> Joel
> 
> On Thu, Dec 19, 2019 at 2:18 PM Neil Gallagher via CnC-List 
> mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
> Not trying to redirect the thread, but since you raised the topic of 
> Tacktick, I've been meaning to see what the list's response to this might be. 
> 
> I've had Tacktick (Raymarine) wind system for about 5 years, and I've added 
> inputs from GPS, speed/depth, so have a fair bit invested in the system.  
> However, I've never really had satisfactory performance with the wind sensor, 
> it drops out more that half the time, and for racing that makes it almost 
> useless.  This summer I put a new battery and bearings in the sensor, got 
> marginally better performance, then I tried hoisting one of my displays up to 
> the spreaders (don't ask) to see if it acts as a relay to the sensors in the 
> cockpit, and that didn't help much.  Finally got through to someone in the UK 
>  (I think) in Raymarine's tech support, who pretty much told me that a 50' 
> mast is really too far for the wind sensor.
> 
> So my question too: what have others found with regards the the Tacktick wind 
> and at what mast height are you using them?
> 
> Neil Gallagher
> Weatherly, 35-1
> Glen Cove, NY
> 
>> 
>> On Dec 19, 2019, at 13:43, John Conklin via CnC-List > > wrote:
>> 
>>> Wowza ! Nice rant :) lol  
>>> Crazy  !! You just can’t make that stuff  up!
>>> On another note how do you like the TackTick considering this for Christmas 
>>> request from Mrs Claus as I can use on both  the C and the Etchells ! :) 
>>> 
>>> John Conklin 
>>> S/V Halcyon 
>>> 
> 
> ___
> 
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
> every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use 
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Joel 
> 
> ___
> 
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
> every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use 
> PayPal to send contribution --  https://www.paypal.me/stumurray 
> 
> 
> ___
> 
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
> every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use 
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray 
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> 
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
> every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use 
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
> 

___

Re: Stus-List SailTimer Experiences-Tacktick

[Edd Schillay via CnC-List]

Neil,

It’s true — Your mast is a little too tall for the Tacktick system. What you 
need, about half way up the mast is a Mast Rotation Transmitter (T221). See: 
https://www.mygreenoutdoors.com/raymarine-wireless-mast-rotation-transmitter/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIsLywjL_C5gIVEfDACh0XzQkJEAQYAiABEgKoXPD_BwE
 

 

This will relay the signal from the top of your mast down to your unit. And 
yeah — It’s pricey. 

Great for normal sailing, but no way should you use any wireless system for 
racing. The system is just too slow and readings can get glitchy. 

Also, you’ll need to put some kind of protection around it so that your jib 
doesn’t whack it off your mast on a windy day while tacking. 

All the best,

Edd


Edd M. Schillay
Captain of the Starship Enterprise
C 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B
Venice Yacht Club | Venice Island, FL

Starship Enterprise's Captain's Log 











On Dec 19, 2019, at 2:46 PM, Gerald Fennessey via CnC-List 
 wrote:

Neil,

I had a Tacktick system on my  Morgan 30/2 and now on my C 35 mk3  no issues 
what so ever. 


Gerry Fennessey
Fianna 33



I had one om my 35/3 without issue.



-Original Message-
From: Joel Aronson via CnC-List 
To: cnc-list 
Cc: Joel Aronson 
Sent: Thu, Dec 19, 2019 2:23 pm
Subject: Re: Stus-List SailTimer Experiences-Tacktick

FWIW,
I had one om my 35/3 without issue.

Joel

On Thu, Dec 19, 2019 at 2:18 PM Neil Gallagher via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
Not trying to redirect the thread, but since you raised the topic of Tacktick, 
I've been meaning to see what the list's response to this might be. 

I've had Tacktick (Raymarine) wind system for about 5 years, and I've added 
inputs from GPS, speed/depth, so have a fair bit invested in the system.  
However, I've never really had satisfactory performance with the wind sensor, 
it drops out more that half the time, and for racing that makes it almost 
useless.  This summer I put a new battery and bearings in the sensor, got 
marginally better performance, then I tried hoisting one of my displays up to 
the spreaders (don't ask) to see if it acts as a relay to the sensors in the 
cockpit, and that didn't help much.  Finally got through to someone in the UK  
(I think) in Raymarine's tech support, who pretty much told me that a 50' mast 
is really too far for the wind sensor.

So my question too: what have others found with regards the the Tacktick wind 
and at what mast height are you using them?

Neil Gallagher
Weatherly, 35-1
Glen Cove, NY

> 
> On Dec 19, 2019, at 13:43, John Conklin via CnC-List  > wrote:
> 
>> Wowza ! Nice rant :) lol  
>> Crazy  !! You just can’t make that stuff  up!
>> On another note how do you like the TackTick considering this for Christmas 
>> request from Mrs Claus as I can use on both  the C and the Etchells ! :) 
>> 
>> John Conklin 
>> S/V Halcyon 
>> 

___

Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray 




-- 
Joel 

___

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every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
to send contribution --  https://www.paypal.me/stumurray 


___

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every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray


___

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Re: Stus-List SailTimer Experiences-Tacktick

[Gerald Fennessey via CnC-List]

Neil,
I had a Tacktick system on my  Morgan 30/2 and now on my C 35 mk3  no issues 
what so ever. 

Gerry FennesseyFianna 33



I had one om my 35/3 without issue.



-Original Message-
From: Joel Aronson via CnC-List 
To: cnc-list 
Cc: Joel Aronson 
Sent: Thu, Dec 19, 2019 2:23 pm
Subject: Re: Stus-List SailTimer Experiences-Tacktick

FWIW,I had one om my 35/3 without issue.
Joel
On Thu, Dec 19, 2019 at 2:18 PM Neil Gallagher via CnC-List 
 wrote:

  Not trying to redirect the thread, but since you raised the topic of 
Tacktick, I've been meaning to see what the list's response to this might be. 
 
 I've had Tacktick (Raymarine) wind system for about 5 years, and I've added 
inputs from GPS, speed/depth, so have a fair bit invested in the system.  
However, I've never really had satisfactory performance with the wind sensor, 
it drops out more that half the time, and for racing that makes it almost 
useless.  This summer I put a new battery and bearings in the sensor, got 
marginally better performance, then I tried hoisting one of my displays up to 
the spreaders (don't ask) to see if it acts as a relay to the sensors in the 
cockpit, and that didn't help much.  Finally got through to someone in the UK  
(I think) in Raymarine's tech support, who pretty much told me that a 50' mast 
is really too far for the wind sensor.
 
 So my question too: what have others found with regards the the Tacktick wind 
and at what mast height are you using them?
 
 Neil Gallagher
 Weatherly, 35-1
 Glen Cove, NY
 
 
  
 On Dec 19, 2019, at 13:43, John Conklin via CnC-List  
wrote:
 
  
  Wowza ! Nice rant :) lol   Crazy  !! You just can’t make that stuff  up! On 
another note how do you like the TackTick considering this for Christmas 
request from Mrs Claus as I can use on both  the C and the Etchells ! :) 
 
 John Conklin  S/V Halcyon   
   
  
 
 ___

Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray




-- 
Joel 

___

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every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
to send contribution --  https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

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Re: Stus-List SailTimer Experiences

[TERRY DAUDRICH via CnC-List]

Hi all,

Been a lurker here for years and don't post because I don't own a C
Still learn a ton of sailing and maintenance stuff tho and we have lots of
owners at our club.

Don't waste your time or money on this set up. I did and agree completely
with David's comments. The latest unit has a replacement battery. Why do
you think that is.? It's because they are very poor at charging up,
holding a charge, and communicating even when standing on the pier with a
direct line of sight to it.

My wind cup bearings didn't last 2 weeks. " We have no way of knowing if it
has been in storms " was there response. Really So this unit can't take
storm force winds now? They sent me a rebuild kit. Great, I just have to
climb my mast mid season to unbolt and rebuild it. After listening to it
growl away it came down for good.

Check out there responses to problems. Almost always the owners fault.

Cheers,
Terry D
Gimli YC
Lake Winnipeg


On Wed., Dec. 18, 2019, 8:56 p.m. Randy Stafford via CnC-List, <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> Listers-
>
> Have any of you used products from SailTimer, e.g. their SailTimer App and
> SailTimer Wind Instrument?  If so, I’d appreciate hearing about your
> experiences with the products and the company.
>
> The company is based in Halifax, Nova Scotia, and headed by Craig
> Summers.  Anybody on this list know him, or other employees of the company?
>
> Thank You,
> Randy Stafford
> S/V Grenadine
> C 30 MK I #79
> Ken Caryl, CO
> ___
>
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each
> and every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list -
> use PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>
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Re: Stus-List SailTimer Experiences-Tacktick

[Joel Aronson via CnC-List]

FWIW,
I had one om my 35/3 without issue.

Joel

On Thu, Dec 19, 2019 at 2:18 PM Neil Gallagher via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> Not trying to redirect the thread, but since you raised the topic of
> Tacktick, I've been meaning to see what the list's response to this might
> be.
>
> I've had Tacktick (Raymarine) wind system for about 5 years, and I've
> added inputs from GPS, speed/depth, so have a fair bit invested in the
> system.  However, I've never really had satisfactory performance with the
> wind sensor, it drops out more that half the time, and for racing that
> makes it almost useless.  This summer I put a new battery and bearings in
> the sensor, got marginally better performance, then I tried hoisting one of
> my displays up to the spreaders (don't ask) to see if it acts as a relay to
> the sensors in the cockpit, and that didn't help much.  Finally got through
> to someone in the UK  (I think) in Raymarine's tech support, who pretty
> much told me that a 50' mast is really too far for the wind sensor.
>
> So my question too: what have others found with regards the the Tacktick
> wind and at what mast height are you using them?
>
> Neil Gallagher
> Weatherly, 35-1
> Glen Cove, NY
>
>
> On Dec 19, 2019, at 13:43, John Conklin via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
> Wowza ! Nice rant :) lol 
> Crazy  !! You just can’t make that stuff  up!
> On another note how do you like the TackTick considering this for
> Christmas request from Mrs Claus as I can use on both  the C and the
> Etchells ! :)
>
> John Conklin
> S/V Halcyon
>
>
> ___
>
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each
> and every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list -
> use PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>
>

-- 
Joel
___

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every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

Re: Stus-List SailTimer Experiences-Tacktick

[Neil Gallagher via CnC-List]

Not trying to redirect the thread, but since you raised the topic of 
Tacktick, I've been meaning to see what the list's response to this 
might be.


I've had Tacktick (Raymarine) wind system for about 5 years, and I've 
added inputs from GPS, speed/depth, so have a fair bit invested in the 
system.  However, I've never really had satisfactory performance with 
the wind sensor, it drops out more that half the time, and for racing 
that makes it almost useless.  This summer I put a new battery and 
bearings in the sensor, got marginally better performance, then I tried 
hoisting one of my displays up to the spreaders (don't ask) to see if it 
acts as a relay to the sensors in the cockpit, and that didn't help 
much.  Finally got through to someone in the UK  (I think) in 
Raymarine's tech support, who pretty much told me that a 50' mast is 
really too far for the wind sensor.


So my question too: what have others found with regards the the Tacktick 
wind and at what mast height are you using them?


Neil Gallagher
Weatherly, 35-1
Glen Cove, NY



On Dec 19, 2019, at 13:43, John Conklin via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:



Wowza ! Nice rant :) lol 
Crazy  !! You just can’t make that stuff  up!
On another note how do you like the TackTick considering this for 
Christmas request from Mrs Claus as I can use on both  the C and 
the Etchells ! :)


John Conklin
S/V Halcyon



___

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every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
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Re: Stus-List SailTimer Experiences

[Andrew Burton via CnC-List]

I liked the Velocitech Prostart I got to use on my J/80.
Andy

Andrew Burton
139 Tuckerman Ave
Middletown, RI 
USA02842

www.burtonsailing.com
http://sites.google.com/site/andrewburtonyachtservices/
+401 965-5260

> On Dec 19, 2019, at 13:43, John Conklin via CnC-List  
> wrote:
> 
> Wowza ! Nice rant :) lol  
> Crazy  !! You just can’t make that stuff  up!
> On another note how do you like the TackTick considering this for Christmas 
> request from Mrs Claus as I can use on both  the C and the Etchells ! :) 
> 
> John Conklin 
> S/V Halcyon 
> 
>> On Dec 19, 2019, at 12:04 PM, David Knecht via CnC-List 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>>  So you poked something I wasted too much time on so I am going to waste 
>> more time venting about Sailtimer:
>> 
>> I have no experience with their hardware, but I was considering purchasing 
>> the wind instrument.  It looks like an interesting piece of hardware, and I 
>> was concerned about my TackTick wireless wind sensor being 7 years old.  I 
>> sent the Tacktick to Raymarine and they checked it out and found it good as 
>> new, so I don’t plan to “upgrade”.  In the process, I had many emails with 
>> Sailtimer regarding how the app worked, because I am a very data driven 
>> racer, and it looked like it might provide some interesting/useful data.  I 
>> found them to be condescending, obtuse, ignorant, confusing and many other 
>> adjectives that I won’t repeat.  I tried very hard to get them to explain 
>> how their algorithm dealt with wind shifts (my primary concern for a wind 
>> sensor) and while I think I finally got them to agree that wind shifts are 
>> important in racing, I still have no idea what the software provides in 
>> terms of useful data on upwind performance and shifts.  It seems like it 
>> might give you some data on how to steer relative to polars, but I am not 
>> sure how useful the implementation is in the real world.  I don’t think it 
>> provides anything useful on wind shifts.  Here is a sample of the kind of 
>> gobbledygook I received:
>> 
 Headers and lifts are actually another antiquated racing method, that are 
 very clumsy in the age of GPS and computers.  They were great in the 1920s 
 when it was impossible to do trigonometry every second in a boat heeled 
 over and crashing through waves.  But they make you choose some arbitrary 
 length of time to get an average wind direction.  And they make an 
 assumption that the wind is going to go back to average later.  If a lift 
 happens for 2 minutes, why call that a lift and not say that it is the 
 real wind?  Too many assumptions.
>> 
>> I disagree.  The decision of whether a shift is 2 min or 10 min or 10 
>> seconds is a key decision a racer makes and calling them right is what wins 
>> races.  They seem to think it is unimportant.  I sent them a pdf that showed 
>> why you sailed lifts and not headers to shorten the distance to the weather 
>> mark.  I got this in response:
>> 
>> This again is an oversimplification.  All sailors know that you cannot 
>> simply shorten the distance (otherwise you would try to go at 2 knots nearly 
>> straight upwind). (DAK: in fact all racers know that what they say here is 
>> wrong.  This is not about trying to pinch to go straight to the mark.  This 
>> is about sailing lifts to shorten the distance while sailing optimal on each 
>> tack.  This is ABSOLUTELY about shortening the distance to the mark!) To get 
>> to the mark fastest, the optimal tack is a balance of minimizing tacking 
>> distance (no idea what that means) and getting the fastest boat speed from 
>> the polar plots.  The SailTimer app recalculates all of this every second (I 
>> agree sailing fast to polars is important, but it cannot determine the 
>> shortest distance if it cannot decide what is a lift or header and what is 
>> not.  I would want a historical (for the race) perspective on the wind angle 
>> was 2 min ago or when I last was on that tack).
>> 
>> This is just geometry and vectors really;  there is no reason to use your 
>> grandfather’s old shortcuts and rules of thumb, when there is a powerful 
>> computer and live GPS and wind data on any smartphone now.  :-)  
>> 
>> Also, many of the rules in the PDF are for artificial race courses, but they 
>> do not work if the mark is not exactly upwind (DAK: untrue!  Sailing lifts 
>> and not headers works whether the mark is directly upwind or not!  It only 
>> changes the laylines and how far you are going to sail on each tack.).  But 
>> the SailTimer app calculates optimal tack headings on all points of sail.  
>> It is also the only product that uses tacking distances (undefined) to 
>> calculate the optimal course (no idea what that means).  
>> 
>> On another point: they claim that there is an optimal set of tacks to the 
>> weather mark which their app calculates in advance and then updates as you 
>> sail (you can see an example on their web site).  I contend that there are 
>> an 

Re: Stus-List JAM vs Spinnaker Racing

[John Conklin via CnC-List]

Same here in Oriental.
They call it a pursuit race with the varying start and no calamity 
as you reignited my spark from 29 + year ago and I was hooked immediately!
Well truth be told I knew I wanted to race and big part of why I bought the C 
and in amazing condition for the price ! With full spin gear, 2015 sails new 
canvas ... oh and used 2-3 times a year ! Lol

John Conklin 
S/V Halcyon 

> On Dec 19, 2019, at 11:40 AM, Luke Wolbrink via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> Making the plunge from JAM to Spin doesn't need to be terrifying or expensive 
> (unless you want it to.) You can find a used chute for a couple hundred bucks 
> online and as others mentioned a few blocks and line and you're going. Once 
> you've learned to tame the pole and kite then go and spend the money on those 
> fancy black sails and a new properly cut colorful one... or dont. Iv'e found 
> that we loose more often not becasue we have older sails but because we blow 
> a tack or spinnaker douse. All of the money in the world won't make up the 2 
> minutes you spend trying to get that hourglass out of the kite. 
> 
> That said, Chicago has a pretty robust racing scene on weekends with 5 major 
> clubs working together to provide lots of events and variety. In order to 
> help develop those white sail JAM guys and get them out on weekends where 
> things are more competitive we started what is referred to as our Casual 
> series of races. The idea is to remove as many of the barriers as possible; 
> it's like a drug once you've gotten a taste you're hooked. Basically the RC 
> assigns a phrf rating to boats without a certificate and then the start is a 
> 15 minute rolling start. That way folks that are intimidated by jockeying 
> around can hang back and not be penalized. The course are usually around 8-10 
> miles long so plenty of time to make maneuvers etc. We've typically seen 
> 10-20 boats out on a given saturday and after a few seasons we're starting to 
> see some of them come out into the racing fleet.
> 
> Cheers,
> Luke
> 1985 35-3 Zella
> ___
> 
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
> every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use 
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
> 

___

Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

Re: Stus-List Bilge pump switch

[John Conklin via CnC-List]

That’s the one I have.  No issues at all  to date 

John Conklin 
S/V Halcyon 

> On Dec 19, 2019, at 11:39 AM, Joel Aronson via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 

___

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every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
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Re: Stus-List SailTimer Experiences

[John Conklin via CnC-List]

Wowza ! Nice rant :) lol  
Crazy  !! You just can’t make that stuff  up!
On another note how do you like the TackTick considering this for Christmas 
request from Mrs Claus as I can use on both  the C and the Etchells ! :) 

John Conklin 
S/V Halcyon 

> On Dec 19, 2019, at 12:04 PM, David Knecht via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
>  So you poked something I wasted too much time on so I am going to waste 
> more time venting about Sailtimer:
> 
> I have no experience with their hardware, but I was considering purchasing 
> the wind instrument.  It looks like an interesting piece of hardware, and I 
> was concerned about my TackTick wireless wind sensor being 7 years old.  I 
> sent the Tacktick to Raymarine and they checked it out and found it good as 
> new, so I don’t plan to “upgrade”.  In the process, I had many emails with 
> Sailtimer regarding how the app worked, because I am a very data driven 
> racer, and it looked like it might provide some interesting/useful data.  I 
> found them to be condescending, obtuse, ignorant, confusing and many other 
> adjectives that I won’t repeat.  I tried very hard to get them to explain how 
> their algorithm dealt with wind shifts (my primary concern for a wind sensor) 
> and while I think I finally got them to agree that wind shifts are important 
> in racing, I still have no idea what the software provides in terms of useful 
> data on upwind performance and shifts.  It seems like it might give you some 
> data on how to steer relative to polars, but I am not sure how useful the 
> implementation is in the real world.  I don’t think it provides anything 
> useful on wind shifts.  Here is a sample of the kind of gobbledygook I 
> received:
> 
>>> Headers and lifts are actually another antiquated racing method, that are 
>>> very clumsy in the age of GPS and computers.  They were great in the 1920s 
>>> when it was impossible to do trigonometry every second in a boat heeled 
>>> over and crashing through waves.  But they make you choose some arbitrary 
>>> length of time to get an average wind direction.  And they make an 
>>> assumption that the wind is going to go back to average later.  If a lift 
>>> happens for 2 minutes, why call that a lift and not say that it is the real 
>>> wind?  Too many assumptions.
> 
> I disagree.  The decision of whether a shift is 2 min or 10 min or 10 seconds 
> is a key decision a racer makes and calling them right is what wins races.  
> They seem to think it is unimportant.  I sent them a pdf that showed why you 
> sailed lifts and not headers to shorten the distance to the weather mark.  I 
> got this in response:
> 
> This again is an oversimplification.  All sailors know that you cannot simply 
> shorten the distance (otherwise you would try to go at 2 knots nearly 
> straight upwind). (DAK: in fact all racers know that what they say here is 
> wrong.  This is not about trying to pinch to go straight to the mark.  This 
> is about sailing lifts to shorten the distance while sailing optimal on each 
> tack.  This is ABSOLUTELY about shortening the distance to the mark!) To get 
> to the mark fastest, the optimal tack is a balance of minimizing tacking 
> distance (no idea what that means) and getting the fastest boat speed from 
> the polar plots.  The SailTimer app recalculates all of this every second (I 
> agree sailing fast to polars is important, but it cannot determine the 
> shortest distance if it cannot decide what is a lift or header and what is 
> not.  I would want a historical (for the race) perspective on the wind angle 
> was 2 min ago or when I last was on that tack).
> 
> This is just geometry and vectors really;  there is no reason to use your 
> grandfather’s old shortcuts and rules of thumb, when there is a powerful 
> computer and live GPS and wind data on any smartphone now.  :-)  
> 
> Also, many of the rules in the PDF are for artificial race courses, but they 
> do not work if the mark is not exactly upwind (DAK: untrue!  Sailing lifts 
> and not headers works whether the mark is directly upwind or not!  It only 
> changes the laylines and how far you are going to sail on each tack.).  But 
> the SailTimer app calculates optimal tack headings on all points of sail.  It 
> is also the only product that uses tacking distances (undefined) to calculate 
> the optimal course (no idea what that means).  
> 
> On another point: they claim that there is an optimal set of tacks to the 
> weather mark which their app calculates in advance and then updates as you 
> sail (you can see an example on their web site).  I contend that there are an 
> infinite number of tack combinations that would get you to the mark at 
> exactly the same time if nothing changes during the leg.  The optimal set of 
> tacks in a race is actually a complex combination of current, shifts, 
> competitor positions, land masses, tides, obstacles etc. and the software 
> cannot/does not determine that.  They are also very confused about 

Re: Stus-List Bilge pump switch

[Joel Aronson via CnC-List]

Joe,

I'm sure it is the highest quality Chinesieum!

Joel

On Thu, Dec 19, 2019 at 12:03 PM Joe Della Barba via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> Until you take the back cover off you don't know what kind of connectors
> are back there out of sight ;)
>
> Joe
>
> Coquina
> On 12/19/2019 11:38 AM, Joel Aronson via CnC-List wrote:
>
> I found one that does not have spade connectors:
>
>
> https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B07P9WC6V1/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8=1
>
>
> Even the Blue Seas toggle switches have spades.
>
> --
> Joel
>
>
> ___
>
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
> every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use 
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>
> ___
>
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each
> and every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list -
> use PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>
>

-- 
Joel
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Re: Stus-List Shower drain won't and "loss" of toilet bowl water fill

[Robert Boyer via CnC-List]

I don't think these two systems are connected.  I think you have two unrelated 
problems.  Have fun with them!

Bob

Bob Boyer
S/V Rainy Days (1983 C Landfall 38 - Hull #230)
Blog: dainyrays.blogspot.com
Email: dainyr...@icloud.com
Annapolis, MD 
(Presently in Baltimore MD for the summer)

> On Dec 19, 2019, at 8:01 AM, Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> water


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Re: Stus-List SailTimer Experiences

[David Knecht via CnC-List]

So you poked something I wasted too much time on so I am going to waste more 
time venting about Sailtimer:

I have no experience with their hardware, but I was considering purchasing the 
wind instrument.  It looks like an interesting piece of hardware, and I was 
concerned about my TackTick wireless wind sensor being 7 years old.  I sent the 
Tacktick to Raymarine and they checked it out and found it good as new, so I 
don’t plan to “upgrade”.  In the process, I had many emails with Sailtimer 
regarding how the app worked, because I am a very data driven racer, and it 
looked like it might provide some interesting/useful data.  I found them to be 
condescending, obtuse, ignorant, confusing and many other adjectives that I 
won’t repeat.  I tried very hard to get them to explain how their algorithm 
dealt with wind shifts (my primary concern for a wind sensor) and while I think 
I finally got them to agree that wind shifts are important in racing, I still 
have no idea what the software provides in terms of useful data on upwind 
performance and shifts.  It seems like it might give you some data on how to 
steer relative to polars, but I am not sure how useful the implementation is in 
the real world.  I don’t think it provides anything useful on wind shifts.  
Here is a sample of the kind of gobbledygook I received:

>> Headers and lifts are actually another antiquated racing method, that are 
>> very clumsy in the age of GPS and computers.  They were great in the 1920s 
>> when it was impossible to do trigonometry every second in a boat heeled over 
>> and crashing through waves.  But they make you choose some arbitrary length 
>> of time to get an average wind direction.  And they make an assumption that 
>> the wind is going to go back to average later.  If a lift happens for 2 
>> minutes, why call that a lift and not say that it is the real wind?  Too 
>> many assumptions.

I disagree.  The decision of whether a shift is 2 min or 10 min or 10 seconds 
is a key decision a racer makes and calling them right is what wins races.  
They seem to think it is unimportant.  I sent them a pdf that showed why you 
sailed lifts and not headers to shorten the distance to the weather mark.  I 
got this in response:

This again is an oversimplification.  All sailors know that you cannot simply 
shorten the distance (otherwise you would try to go at 2 knots nearly straight 
upwind). (DAK: in fact all racers know that what they say here is wrong.  This 
is not about trying to pinch to go straight to the mark.  This is about sailing 
lifts to shorten the distance while sailing optimal on each tack.  This is 
ABSOLUTELY about shortening the distance to the mark!) To get to the mark 
fastest, the optimal tack is a balance of minimizing tacking distance (no idea 
what that means) and getting the fastest boat speed from the polar plots.  The 
SailTimer app recalculates all of this every second (I agree sailing fast to 
polars is important, but it cannot determine the shortest distance if it cannot 
decide what is a lift or header and what is not.  I would want a historical 
(for the race) perspective on the wind angle was 2 min ago or when I last was 
on that tack).

This is just geometry and vectors really;  there is no reason to use your 
grandfather’s old shortcuts and rules of thumb, when there is a powerful 
computer and live GPS and wind data on any smartphone now.  :-)  

Also, many of the rules in the PDF are for artificial race courses, but they do 
not work if the mark is not exactly upwind (DAK: untrue!  Sailing lifts and not 
headers works whether the mark is directly upwind or not!  It only changes the 
laylines and how far you are going to sail on each tack.).  But the SailTimer 
app calculates optimal tack headings on all points of sail.  It is also the 
only product that uses tacking distances (undefined) to calculate the optimal 
course (no idea what that means).  

On another point: they claim that there is an optimal set of tacks to the 
weather mark which their app calculates in advance and then updates as you sail 
(you can see an example on their web site).  I contend that there are an 
infinite number of tack combinations that would get you to the mark at exactly 
the same time if nothing changes during the leg.  The optimal set of tacks in a 
race is actually a complex combination of current, shifts, competitor 
positions, land masses, tides, obstacles etc. and the software cannot/does not 
determine that.  They are also very confused about optimal course on a tack 
(polar performance) and when you change to the other tack (port starboard).  
They use the same term for both making explanations incomprehensible.  

Bottom line: the hardware might be fine, but I would not expect much from the 
software.  I would be interested to hear from anyone who uses the software to 
know if it is better than their ability to explain it.  Dave

S/V Aries
1990 C 34+
New London, CT



> On Dec 18, 2019, at 9:55 

Re: Stus-List Bilge pump switch

[Joe Della Barba via CnC-List]

Until you take the back cover off you don't know what kind of connectors 
are back there out of sight ;)


Joe

Coquina

On 12/19/2019 11:38 AM, Joel Aronson via CnC-List wrote:

I found one that does not have spade connectors:

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B07P9WC6V1/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8=1 



Even the Blue Seas toggle switches have spades.

--
Joel


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Re: Stus-List JAM vs Spinnaker Racing

[Luke Wolbrink via CnC-List]

Making the plunge from JAM to Spin doesn't need to be terrifying or
expensive (unless you want it to.) You can find a used chute for a couple
hundred bucks online and as others mentioned a few blocks and line and
you're going. Once you've learned to tame the pole and kite then go and
spend the money on those fancy black sails and a new properly cut colorful
one... or dont. Iv'e found that we loose more often not becasue we have
older sails but because we blow a tack or spinnaker douse. All of the money
in the world won't make up the 2 minutes you spend trying to get that
hourglass out of the kite.

That said, Chicago has a pretty robust racing scene on weekends with 5
major clubs working together to provide lots of events and variety. In
order to help develop those white sail JAM guys and get them out on
weekends where things are more competitive we started what is referred to
as our Casual series of races. The idea is to remove as many of the
barriers as possible; it's like a drug once you've gotten a taste you're
hooked. Basically the RC assigns a phrf rating to boats without a
certificate and then the start is a 15 minute rolling start. That way folks
that are intimidated by jockeying around can hang back and not be
penalized. The course are usually around 8-10 miles long so plenty of time
to make maneuvers etc. We've typically seen 10-20 boats out on a given
saturday and after a few seasons we're starting to see some of them come
out into the racing fleet.

Cheers,
Luke
1985 35-3 Zella
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Stus-List Bilge pump switch

[Joel Aronson via CnC-List]

I found one that does not have spade connectors:

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B07P9WC6V1/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8=1


Even the Blue Seas toggle switches have spades.

-- 
Joel
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Re: Stus-List JAM vs Spinnaker Racing

[Jeff Helsdingen via CnC-List]

Pulls the top of the mast forward when going downwind with the kite up. Bit
surprised it does anything with a sturdy mast like the one on a 35-1.

Jeff

On Thu., Dec. 19, 2019, 11:27 a.m. Randy Stafford via CnC-List, <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> Hey Dennis - what’s a defraculator?  :)
>
> Cheers,
> Randy
>
> On Dec 18, 2019, at 8:48 PM, Dennis C. via CnC-List 
> wrote:
>
> Yes, spinnakers can nearly double your racing costs.  Years ago, at the
> height of Touche's racing program, we had 0.6, 0.75 and 1.5 oz chutes, two
> part high tech Dyneema/StaSet spin sheets, Harken carbo-ratchet tweakers
> (twings), custom chute launch bags, double pole downhaul(goes down each
> side of cabin and is trimmed in cockpit), a spinnaker halyard parking
> cleat, a "defraculator" (don't ask), light air spin sheets and probably a
> few more boat bucks of stuff I can't recall.  I'm guessing all that adds up
> to somewhere around 10 big boat bucks.
>
> You don't need to dive in that deep.  A used chute, a few blocks and some
> old sheets will start you off just fine.
>
> Yes, you can race spin on a budget and still have a lot of fun.  The best
> way to experiennce spin racing and learn is on someone else's boat.  That's
> what I did.  I spent several years crewing before I bought Touche' and
> started my own racing program.
>
> Dennis C.
> Touche' 35-1 #83
> Mandeville, LA
>
> On Wed, Dec 18, 2019, 7:37 PM Charlie Nelson via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
>> You are correct regarding expense--spin racing just requires more of
>> everything--crew, boat, gear, sails, food, drinks, etc.
>>
>> I like to race in what my crew prefers and also in the most competitive
>> arena. Locally at least, the JAM fleet is not competitive enough for
>> us--except for those whose high ratings in light air make it impossible to
>> race fairly against them.
>>
>> Of course I like to win but more importantly I want race in a competitive
>> fleet, even if I come in last but close to my competitors. Winning most of
>> the time in our local JAM fleet is not as much fun as busting our
>> collective as...es to come in last among the best local racers.
>>
>>
> That's my story and I am sticking to it!!
>>
>> Charlie Nelson
>> Water Phantom
>> C 36 XL/kcb
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each
> and every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list -
> use PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>
>
> ___
>
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each
> and every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list -
> use PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>
>
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Re: Stus-List JAM vs Spinnaker Racing

[Randy Stafford via CnC-List]

Hey Dennis - what’s a defraculator?  :)

Cheers,
Randy

> On Dec 18, 2019, at 8:48 PM, Dennis C. via CnC-List  
> wrote:
> 
> Yes, spinnakers can nearly double your racing costs.  Years ago, at the 
> height of Touche's racing program, we had 0.6, 0.75 and 1.5 oz chutes, two 
> part high tech Dyneema/StaSet spin sheets, Harken carbo-ratchet tweakers 
> (twings), custom chute launch bags, double pole downhaul(goes down each side 
> of cabin and is trimmed in cockpit), a spinnaker halyard parking cleat, a 
> "defraculator" (don't ask), light air spin sheets and probably a few more 
> boat bucks of stuff I can't recall.  I'm guessing all that adds up to 
> somewhere around 10 big boat bucks.
> 
> You don't need to dive in that deep.  A used chute, a few blocks and some old 
> sheets will start you off just fine.  
> 
> Yes, you can race spin on a budget and still have a lot of fun.  The best way 
> to experiennce spin racing and learn is on someone else's boat.  That's what 
> I did.  I spent several years crewing before I bought Touche' and started my 
> own racing program.  
> 
> Dennis C.
> Touche' 35-1 #83
> Mandeville, LA
> 
> On Wed, Dec 18, 2019, 7:37 PM Charlie Nelson via CnC-List 
> mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
> You are correct regarding expense--spin racing just requires more of 
> everything--crew, boat, gear, sails, food, drinks, etc. 
> 
> I like to race in what my crew prefers and also in the most competitive 
> arena. Locally at least, the JAM fleet is not competitive enough for 
> us--except for those whose high ratings in light air make it impossible to 
> race fairly against them. 
> 
> Of course I like to win but more importantly I want race in a competitive 
> fleet, even if I come in last but close to my competitors. Winning most of 
> the time in our local JAM fleet is not as much fun as busting our collective 
> as...es to come in last among the best local racers. 
>  
> That's my story and I am sticking to it!!
> 
> Charlie Nelson
> Water Phantom
> C 36 XL/kcb
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> 
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
> every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use 
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
> 

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Re: Stus-List JAM vs Spinnaker Racing

[Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List]

During an informal race up the Chester with a C 40 it was just my wife on 
board with me managing the chute. We had to harden up to a beam reach for a 
section of the S-turning river right when a big gust hit and launched 
red-white-and-blue nylon confetti all over the river ☹
I had the unenviable task of informing my wife those bits of nylon were going 
to cost more than what her car was worth to replace.
On the plus side all the luff tapes held, we had an empty triangle still flying!


Joe Della Barba
Coquina

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of David Risch 
via CnC-List
Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2019 11:15 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: David Risch 
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Stus-List JAM vs Spinnaker Racing

Breakage…don’t forget the breakage - 

David F. Risch
(401) 419-4650

From: CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com>> On Behalf 
Of Dennis C. via CnC-List
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2019 10:48 PM
To: CnClist mailto:CnC-List@cnc-list.com>>
Cc: Dennis C. mailto:capt...@gmail.com>>
Subject: Re: Stus-List JAM vs Spinnaker Racing

Yes, spinnakers can nearly double your racing costs.  Years ago, at the height 
of Touche's racing program, we had 0.6, 0.75 and 1.5 oz chutes, two part high 
tech Dyneema/StaSet spin sheets, Harken carbo-ratchet tweakers (twings), custom 
chute launch bags, double pole downhaul(goes down each side of cabin and is 
trimmed in cockpit), a spinnaker halyard parking cleat, a "defraculator" (don't 
ask), light air spin sheets and probably a few more boat bucks of stuff I can't 
recall.  I'm guessing all that adds up to somewhere around 10 big boat bucks.

You don't need to dive in that deep.  A used chute, a few blocks and some old 
sheets will start you off just fine.

Yes, you can race spin on a budget and still have a lot of fun.  The best way 
to experiennce spin racing and learn is on someone else's boat.  That's what I 
did.  I spent several years crewing before I bought Touche' and started my own 
racing program.

Dennis C.
Touche' 35-1 #83
Mandeville, LA
On Wed, Dec 18, 2019, 7:37 PM Charlie Nelson via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
You are correct regarding expense--spin racing just requires more of 
everything--crew, boat, gear, sails, food, drinks, etc.

I like to race in what my crew prefers and also in the most competitive arena. 
Locally at least, the JAM fleet is not competitive enough for us--except for 
those whose high ratings in light air make it impossible to race fairly against 
them.

Of course I like to win but more importantly I want race in a competitive 
fleet, even if I come in last but close to my competitors. Winning most of the 
time in our local JAM fleet is not as much fun as busting our collective 
as...es to come in last among the best local racers.

That's my story and I am sticking to it!!

Charlie Nelson
Water Phantom
C 36 XL/kcb


___

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every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
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Re: Stus-List JAM vs Spinnaker Racing

[David Risch via CnC-List]

Breakage…don’t forget the breakage - 

David F. Risch
(401) 419-4650

From: CnC-List  On Behalf Of Dennis C. via 
CnC-List
Sent: Wednesday, December 18, 2019 10:48 PM
To: CnClist 
Cc: Dennis C. 
Subject: Re: Stus-List JAM vs Spinnaker Racing

Yes, spinnakers can nearly double your racing costs.  Years ago, at the height 
of Touche's racing program, we had 0.6, 0.75 and 1.5 oz chutes, two part high 
tech Dyneema/StaSet spin sheets, Harken carbo-ratchet tweakers (twings), custom 
chute launch bags, double pole downhaul(goes down each side of cabin and is 
trimmed in cockpit), a spinnaker halyard parking cleat, a "defraculator" (don't 
ask), light air spin sheets and probably a few more boat bucks of stuff I can't 
recall.  I'm guessing all that adds up to somewhere around 10 big boat bucks.

You don't need to dive in that deep.  A used chute, a few blocks and some old 
sheets will start you off just fine.

Yes, you can race spin on a budget and still have a lot of fun.  The best way 
to experiennce spin racing and learn is on someone else's boat.  That's what I 
did.  I spent several years crewing before I bought Touche' and started my own 
racing program.

Dennis C.
Touche' 35-1 #83
Mandeville, LA
On Wed, Dec 18, 2019, 7:37 PM Charlie Nelson via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
You are correct regarding expense--spin racing just requires more of 
everything--crew, boat, gear, sails, food, drinks, etc.

I like to race in what my crew prefers and also in the most competitive arena. 
Locally at least, the JAM fleet is not competitive enough for us--except for 
those whose high ratings in light air make it impossible to race fairly against 
them.

Of course I like to win but more importantly I want race in a competitive 
fleet, even if I come in last but close to my competitors. Winning most of the 
time in our local JAM fleet is not as much fun as busting our collective 
as...es to come in last among the best local racers.

That's my story and I am sticking to it!!

Charlie Nelson
Water Phantom
C 36 XL/kcb



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Re: Stus-List Shower drain won't and "loss" of toilet bowl water fill

[ALAN BERGEN via CnC-List]

Shower: Check the filter at the end of the drain hose. Could be hair or
other stuff blocking the water flow. It doesn't take much to clog the hose.

Toilet: If you haven't serviced the toilet in awhile, it might just need an
overhaul. If it's an old Jabsco toilet, replace the pump with a twist and
lock pump. Otherwise, just get a service kit for your model toilet.

Alan Bergen
35 Mk III Thirsty
Rose City YC
Portland, OR

On Wed, Dec 18, 2019 at 11:54 PM detroito91 via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> My shower drain won't pump the water out. I have removed and cleaned the
> rule pump. Nothing there.  The switch will start the pump running. No
> change in water level.
> At approximately the same time,  the water does not come into the toilet
> bowl.  Turn the knob to fill the bowl, and pump handle. Nothing comes in.
> Empty bowl. I hear water "noise" for a few seconds when I finish pumping.
> It will remove water to holding tank if I manually add water. All thru
> hulls are open and confirmed by resident expert...rick brass.
> What have I done or not done. Where should i check. Happened all of a
> sudden.
> 81 38 landfall and in water
> Thanks for your help
> Jim Schwartz
> SEA YA !
> Washington nc
>
>
>
> Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
>
> ___
>
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each
> and every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list -
> use PayPal to send contribution --
> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.paypal.me_stumurray=DwICAg=clK7kQUTWtAVEOVIgvi0NU5BOUHhpN0H8p7CSfnc_gI=9w3G7Cf8YfQnrjmtuNxwDJYr3JMv9f1pAfgAJ9xXYQQ=IH6Q47K4kosHI1_iew-Aqa39U6kl-xuAv9If0xQjXJE=1ETLDJ7WjBHN2udAOnYerL55jPhIlfLNFFVCWtCXZH4=
>
>
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Re: Stus-List Shower drain won't and "loss" of toilet bowl water fill

[Bill Coleman via CnC-List]

Work your way back.

Disconnect the pump hose and see if it is actually pumping, or just humming.

Disconnect the hose to the head, and see if it is plugged – put a shop vac on, 
blow or suck and see if there is water flow.

It’s a mystery to be solved – Knives Out!

 

Bill Coleman

Erie PA

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of detroito91 
via CnC-List
Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2019 2:54 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: detroito91
Subject: Stus-List Shower drain won't and "loss" of toilet bowl water fill

 

My shower drain won't pump the water out. I have removed and cleaned the rule 
pump. Nothing there.  The switch will start the pump running. No change in 
water level. 

At approximately the same time,  the water does not come into the toilet bowl.  
Turn the knob to fill the bowl, and pump handle. Nothing comes in. Empty bowl. 
I hear water "noise" for a few seconds when I finish pumping. 

It will remove water to holding tank if I manually add water. All thru hulls 
are open and confirmed by resident expert...rick brass.

What have I done or not done. Where should i check. Happened all of a sudden.

81 38 landfall and in water

Thanks for your help

Jim Schwartz 

SEA YA !

Washington nc 

 

 

 

Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

 

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Stus-List Shower drain won't and "loss" of toilet bowl water fill

[Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List]

Do these two systems share any common parts at all? Trying to see the 
connection here.
Where does the shower sump water go?

Joe Della Barba
Coquina

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of detroito91 
via CnC-List
Sent: Thursday, December 19, 2019 2:54 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: detroito91 
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Stus-List Shower drain won't and "loss" of toilet bowl 
water fill

My shower drain won't pump the water out. I have removed and cleaned the rule 
pump. Nothing there.  The switch will start the pump running. No change in 
water level.
At approximately the same time,  the water does not come into the toilet bowl.  
Turn the knob to fill the bowl, and pump handle. Nothing comes in. Empty bowl. 
I hear water "noise" for a few seconds when I finish pumping.
It will remove water to holding tank if I manually add water. All thru hulls 
are open and confirmed by resident expert...rick brass.
What have I done or not done. Where should i check. Happened all of a sudden.
81 38 landfall and in water
Thanks for your help
Jim Schwartz
SEA YA !
Washington nc



Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

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