Stus-List Re: anyone gone lithium?

[Dave S via CnC-List]

Riley - 
Thanks for taking the time to write the post.   

Will comment only on the following:

“ Also, in order to take full advantage of the perks of lithium you need to be 
able to efficiently charge the system. This means a substantial solar array or 
very high output alternator (often requiring serpentine belts and larger 
pulleys). For the weekend sailor or anyone tied to a dock most of their season, 
these costs cannot be justified over conventional lead-acid or AGM technology.”

For most of us, there is absolutely no need to upsize three charge sources to 
take ‘full advantage’ of the maximum charge current (shortest possible charge 
time) of a LiFePo bank.  Same as there is no need to drive your car so as to 
take full advantage of its top speed.  In both cases the  ‘perk’ is merely 
incidental, unless you happen to need it.  As you point out those charging 
system upgrades are very expensive, So, don’t do it if you don’t need it.  
Many listers meet their needs with a usable 200ah, and 200w of solar charging, 
and this meets their requirement perfectly, (lithium or otherwise) at 
significantly lower cost than the $5kUS + solar than you suggest.   
As always YMMV and I have no doubt you are happy with the impressive setup you 
describe, and that it meets your particular needs.  

Dave 


Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 15, 2021, at 5:55 PM, Dreuge via CnC-List  
> wrote:
> 
> Riley,
> 
> While I’m not an advocate for drop-in replacements, but your statements about 
> them cutting off ones VHF, depth, chartplotter, bilge pumps, radar, etc. is 
> plainly false.   The BMS in these drop-ins use separate charging and 
> discharging power MOSFET, so yes the built in BMS can stop an over charge but 
> they are still able discharge as normal.   This is in essence a dual buss 
> system, but at the board level.   There are plenty of cruisers using these 
> drop-ins and many of them are sponsored companies you mentioned, SV Delos 
> being the most notable was sponsored by Battleborn.  I do know some people 
> who prefer a relayed controlled BMS.  For relays BMS systems,  you do want or 
> should have separate charging  and discharging buses, but that is due to the 
> nature of the two way flow of relays.
> 
> The Lithium fires that we all hear about are not the same battery chemistry.  
> The Lithium batteries in laptops, phones, Teslas and some power hand tools 
> are the lithium-ions: LiCoO2, LiMgO2, …These have higher energy density 
> which is why the are used, but they are not as safe as LiFePO4.  While the 
> Li-Ions are know to produce excessive heat, which leads to thermal runaway 
> (ie. fire/explosions), the LiFePO4 does not.   
> 
> 
> -
> Paul E.
> 1981 C Landfall 38 
> S/V Johanna Rose
> Fort Walton Beach, FL
> 
> http://svjohannarose.blogspot.com/
> 
> 
> 
>>  
>> From: Riley Anderson via CnC-List  
>> Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2021 11:39 AM
>> To: Stus-List 
>> Cc: Della Barba, Joe ; Riley Anderson 
>> 
>> Subject: Stus-List Re: anyone gone lithium?
>>  
>> Hi Joe and any others interested in this topic.
>>  
>> I install lithium batteries as my side job and after installing lithium on 
>> our 38-ii and other large boats and consulting on another half dozen boats, 
>> I can speak with some authority on this topic.
>>  
>> The risk of serious electrical or fire damage can be entirely mitigated by 
>> properly installing the right equipment and following a strict circuit 
>> topology. Most people who have installed lithium do not do this and this is 
>> precisely why we hear about "lithium fires" so commonly.
>>  
>> Before diving into the details, you should be aware that in order to safely 
>> install lithium batteries on a boat, you need to buy top-quality gear that 
>> is compatible with the exact lithium chemistry of your batteries. Can you 
>> use an AGM charge profile from the old charger you have lying around? Sure, 
>> you may be willing to take more risks than others but this is not acceptable 
>> in a professional install and it also reduces the efficiency of your 
>> expensive batteries that you bought for their high efficiency in the first 
>> place! It is these "indirect" costs of making the lithium safe aboard that 
>> will dramatically increase the investment cost. Also, in order to take full 
>> advantage of the perks of lithium you need to be able to efficiently charge 
>> the system. This means a substantial solar array or very high output 
>> alternator (often requiring serpentine belts and larger pulleys). For the 
>> weekend sailor or anyone tied to a dock most of their season, these costs 
>> cannot be justified over conventional lead-acid or AGM technology.
>>  
>> My wife and I live aboard and spend our entire season on anchor or mooring. 
>> This is where lithium shines. We have 720 watts of solar and 320 Ah of 
>> lithium. We run a fridge, separate freezer, fans, computers, microwave, 
>> electric kettle, with enough excess power each day to either make 6 

Stus-List Re: anyone gone lithium?

[Riley Anderson via CnC-List]

Yes, thanks Paul for adding these nuances. One can only include so much of
the details and my disdain for "drop-in replacement" lithiums stems more
from my concern that many end-users will take this completely at face value
and make no other modification to their boat's electrical system to
accommodate the lithium. Moreover, board-level dual bus systems may be
incorporated on some of the bigger names but that is most certainly not
guaranteed on the cheap imitators sold at Alibaba and Amazon.



On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 5:55 PM Dreuge  wrote:

> Riley,
>
> While I’m not an advocate for drop-in replacements, but your statements
> about them cutting off ones VHF, depth, chartplotter, bilge pumps, radar,
> etc. is plainly false.   The BMS in these drop-ins use separate charging
> and discharging power MOSFET, so yes the built in BMS can stop an over
> charge but they are still able discharge as normal.   This is in essence a
> dual buss system, but at the board level.   There are plenty of cruisers
> using these drop-ins and many of them are sponsored companies you
> mentioned, SV Delos being the most notable was sponsored by Battleborn.  I
> do know some people who prefer a relayed controlled BMS.  For relays BMS
> systems,  you do want or should have separate charging  and discharging
> buses, but that is due to the nature of the two way flow of relays.
>
> The Lithium fires that we all hear about are not the same battery
> chemistry.  The Lithium batteries in laptops, phones, Teslas and some power
> hand tools are the lithium-ions: LiCoO2, LiMgO2, …These have higher
> energy density which is why the are used, but they are not as safe as
> LiFePO4.  While the Li-Ions are know to produce excessive heat, which leads
> to thermal runaway (ie. fire/explosions), the LiFePO4 does not.
>
>
> -
> Paul E.
> 1981 C Landfall 38
> S/V Johanna Rose
> Fort Walton Beach, FL
>
> http://svjohannarose.blogspot.com/
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Riley Anderson via CnC-List 
> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 15, 2021 11:39 AM
> *To:* Stus-List 
> *Cc:* Della Barba, Joe ; Riley Anderson <
> svfreighttr...@gmail.com>
> *Subject:* Stus-List Re: anyone gone lithium?
>
> Hi Joe and any others interested in this topic.
>
> I install lithium batteries as my side job and after installing lithium on
> our 38-ii and other large boats and consulting on another half dozen boats,
> I can speak with some authority on this topic.
>
> *The risk of serious electrical or fire damage can be entirely mitigated
> by properly installing the right equipment and following a strict circuit
> topology. Most people who have installed lithium do not do this and this is
> precisely why we hear about "lithium fires" so commonly.*
>
> Before diving into the details, you should be aware that in order to
> safely install lithium batteries on a boat, you need to buy top-quality
> gear that is compatible with the exact lithium chemistry of your batteries.
> Can you use an AGM charge profile from the old charger you have lying
> around? Sure, you may be willing to take more risks than others but this is
> not acceptable in a professional install and it also reduces the efficiency
> of your expensive batteries that you bought for their high efficiency in
> the first place! It is these "indirect" costs of making the lithium safe
> aboard that will dramatically increase the investment cost. Also, in order
> to take full advantage of the perks of lithium you need to be able to
> efficiently charge the system. This means a substantial solar array or very
> high output alternator (often requiring serpentine belts and larger
> pulleys). *For the weekend sailor or anyone tied to a dock most of their
> season, these costs cannot be justified over conventional lead-acid or AGM
> technology.*
>
> My wife and I live aboard and spend our entire season on anchor or
> mooring. This is where lithium shines. We have 720 watts of solar and 320
> Ah of lithium. *We run a fridge, separate freezer, fans, computers,
> microwave, electric kettle, with enough excess power each day to either
> make 6 gallons of hot water through the inverter or run a 5000 BTU air
> conditioner on high for 5 hours through the night.* We have all the
> luxuries of home and are never concerned about running out of power.
>
> *The details:*
>
> The Battleborn, Dakota, and Renogy batteries that advertise *a "drop-in"
> replacement for lead-acid should never be used on a boat*. These were
> designed for van-lifers who can pull over and escape if something goes
> horribly wrong.
>
> The key with lithium is that you need to protect both your boat and
> its electronics and your substantial investment in batteries. Lithium
> batteries will not tolerate overcharging, this is where the fire risk comes
> in. On the other hand, over-discharging will not cause a fire risk but will
> destroy your battery. The "drop-in" replacement batteries "solve" this by
> disconnecting their terminals in the case of either overcharge or
> 

Stus-List Re: anyone gone lithium?

[Dreuge via CnC-List]

Riley,

While I’m not an advocate for drop-in replacements, but your statements about 
them cutting off ones VHF, depth, chartplotter, bilge pumps, radar, etc. is 
plainly false.   The BMS in these drop-ins use separate charging and 
discharging power MOSFET, so yes the built in BMS can stop an over charge but 
they are still able discharge as normal.   This is in essence a dual buss 
system, but at the board level.   There are plenty of cruisers using these 
drop-ins and many of them are sponsored companies you mentioned, SV Delos being 
the most notable was sponsored by Battleborn.  I do know some people who prefer 
a relayed controlled BMS.  For relays BMS systems,  you do want or should have 
separate charging  and discharging buses, but that is due to the nature of the 
two way flow of relays.

The Lithium fires that we all hear about are not the same battery chemistry.  
The Lithium batteries in laptops, phones, Teslas and some power hand tools are 
the lithium-ions: LiCoO2, LiMgO2, …These have higher energy density which 
is why the are used, but they are not as safe as LiFePO4.  While the Li-Ions 
are know to produce excessive heat, which leads to thermal runaway (ie. 
fire/explosions), the LiFePO4 does not.   


-
Paul E.
1981 C Landfall 38 
S/V Johanna Rose
Fort Walton Beach, FL

http://svjohannarose.blogspot.com/



>  
> From: Riley Anderson via CnC-List  > 
> Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2021 11:39 AM
> To: Stus-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
> Cc: Della Barba, Joe  >; Riley Anderson  >
> Subject: Stus-List Re: anyone gone lithium?
>  
> Hi Joe and any others interested in this topic.
>  
> I install lithium batteries as my side job and after installing lithium on 
> our 38-ii and other large boats and consulting on another half dozen boats, I 
> can speak with some authority on this topic.
>  
> The risk of serious electrical or fire damage can be entirely mitigated by 
> properly installing the right equipment and following a strict circuit 
> topology. Most people who have installed lithium do not do this and this is 
> precisely why we hear about "lithium fires" so commonly.
>  
> Before diving into the details, you should be aware that in order to safely 
> install lithium batteries on a boat, you need to buy top-quality gear that is 
> compatible with the exact lithium chemistry of your batteries. Can you use an 
> AGM charge profile from the old charger you have lying around? Sure, you may 
> be willing to take more risks than others but this is not acceptable in a 
> professional install and it also reduces the efficiency of your expensive 
> batteries that you bought for their high efficiency in the first place! It is 
> these "indirect" costs of making the lithium safe aboard that will 
> dramatically increase the investment cost. Also, in order to take full 
> advantage of the perks of lithium you need to be able to efficiently charge 
> the system. This means a substantial solar array or very high output 
> alternator (often requiring serpentine belts and larger pulleys). For the 
> weekend sailor or anyone tied to a dock most of their season, these costs 
> cannot be justified over conventional lead-acid or AGM technology.
>  
> My wife and I live aboard and spend our entire season on anchor or mooring. 
> This is where lithium shines. We have 720 watts of solar and 320 Ah of 
> lithium. We run a fridge, separate freezer, fans, computers, microwave, 
> electric kettle, with enough excess power each day to either make 6 gallons 
> of hot water through the inverter or run a 5000 BTU air conditioner on high 
> for 5 hours through the night. We have all the luxuries of home and are never 
> concerned about running out of power. 
>  
> The details:
>  
> The Battleborn, Dakota, and Renogy batteries that advertise a "drop-in" 
> replacement for lead-acid should never be used on a boat. These were designed 
> for van-lifers who can pull over and escape if something goes horribly wrong. 
>  
> The key with lithium is that you need to protect both your boat and its 
> electronics and your substantial investment in batteries. Lithium batteries 
> will not tolerate overcharging, this is where the fire risk comes in. On the 
> other hand, over-discharging will not cause a fire risk but will destroy your 
> battery. The "drop-in" replacement batteries "solve" this by disconnecting 
> their terminals in the case of either overcharge or over-discharge. This is 
> unacceptable on a boat for two reasons: 1) most obviously, if you lose all DC 
> power underway, you no longer have VHF, depth, chartplotter, bilge pumps, 
> radar, etc. 2) if the alternator is spinning but there is no battery to 
> accept the charge, it will send unregulated voltage through the entire 
> electrical system.
>  
> The proper way to install lithium involves implementing a dual-DC bus 
> topology where all of the 

Stus-List Re: anyone gone lithium?

[Joe Della Barba via CnC-List]

Wow – this post is one example of why this list is the best!

 

What I have come down to is this:

New 4D gel - $650

200 AH Lithium – About the same for just the cells.

What will add up is all the extra stuff and rewiring I would need to do the job 
correctly.

It will probably come down to my love of science experiments vs. just driving 
to the battery store and being done with this in an afternoon.

 

 

Joe Della Barba

Coquina C 35 MK I

Kent Island MD USA

 

 

 

 

From: Riley Anderson via CnC-List  
Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2021 11:39 AM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Della Barba, Joe ; Riley Anderson 

Subject: Stus-List Re: anyone gone lithium?

 

Hi Joe and any others interested in this topic.

 

I install lithium batteries as my side job and after installing lithium on our 
38-ii and other large boats and consulting on another half dozen boats, I can 
speak with some authority on this topic.

 

The risk of serious electrical or fire damage can be entirely mitigated by 
properly installing the right equipment and following a strict circuit 
topology. Most people who have installed lithium do not do this and this is 
precisely why we hear about "lithium fires" so commonly.

 

Before diving into the details, you should be aware that in order to safely 
install lithium batteries on a boat, you need to buy top-quality gear that is 
compatible with the exact lithium chemistry of your batteries. Can you use an 
AGM charge profile from the old charger you have lying around? Sure, you may be 
willing to take more risks than others but this is not acceptable in a 
professional install and it also reduces the efficiency of your expensive 
batteries that you bought for their high efficiency in the first place! It is 
these "indirect" costs of making the lithium safe aboard that will dramatically 
increase the investment cost. Also, in order to take full advantage of the 
perks of lithium you need to be able to efficiently charge the system. This 
means a substantial solar array or very high output alternator (often requiring 
serpentine belts and larger pulleys). For the weekend sailor or anyone tied to 
a dock most of their season, these costs cannot be justified over conventional 
lead-acid or AGM technology.

 

My wife and I live aboard and spend our entire season on anchor or mooring. 
This is where lithium shines. We have 720 watts of solar and 320 Ah of lithium. 
We run a fridge, separate freezer, fans, computers, microwave, electric kettle, 
with enough excess power each day to either make 6 gallons of hot water through 
the inverter or run a 5000 BTU air conditioner on high for 5 hours through the 
night. We have all the luxuries of home and are never concerned about running 
out of power. 

 

The details:

 

The Battleborn, Dakota, and Renogy batteries that advertise a "drop-in" 
replacement for lead-acid should never be used on a boat. These were designed 
for van-lifers who can pull over and escape if something goes horribly wrong. 

 

The key with lithium is that you need to protect both your boat and its 
electronics and your substantial investment in batteries. Lithium batteries 
will not tolerate overcharging, this is where the fire risk comes in. On the 
other hand, over-discharging will not cause a fire risk but will destroy your 
battery. The "drop-in" replacement batteries "solve" this by disconnecting 
their terminals in the case of either overcharge or over-discharge. This is 
unacceptable on a boat for two reasons: 1) most obviously, if you lose all DC 
power underway, you no longer have VHF, depth, chartplotter, bilge pumps, 
radar, etc. 2) if the alternator is spinning but there is no battery to accept 
the charge, it will send unregulated voltage through the entire electrical 
system.

 

The proper way to install lithium involves implementing a dual-DC bus topology 
where all of the charge sources come into a single "charge bus" and all of the 
loads run on a separate "load bus". Victron Energy is the only company with 
off-the-shelf batteries and related components to implement such a system. Of 
course, the savy DIYer can build their own lithium banks and program a 
compatible battery management system to achieve a similar end result but this 
involves a serious appreciation for the nuances of lithium and circuitry 
design. Essentially, a battery management system (BMS) will both balance the 
individual cells in a battery and measure the voltage of each cell. If any 
single cell reaches its upper voltage threshold value, the BMS triggers a relay 
to disconnect the charge bus and prevent overcharging (keep in mind, there are 
other steps necessary to protect alternators, I'll come back to this later). If 
any cell reaches its lower voltage threshold, the BMS similarly triggers a 
relay disconnecting the load bus to prevent over-discharge. The separation of 
charge and load busses is critical as it allows the system to recover on its 
own. In the event of a low-voltage 

Stus-List Re: anyone gone lithium?

[Bill Coleman via CnC-List]

I have saved this info as well  - till the prices come down! – I can see I’m 
not ready for this yet!

8D replacement, $3900. 

 

Bill Coleman

Entrada, Erie, PA

 

 

 

From: Richard Bush via CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2021 3:12 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Richard Bush
Subject: Stus-List Re: anyone gone lithium?

 

Riley, Ditto what David Risch said; Thank you; your explanation is the first 
thing I have read about lithium batteries that I understand and that makes 
sense! thanks again!

 

Richard

s/v Bushmark4: 1985 C 37 CB; Ohio River, Mile 584;

 

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: anyone gone lithium?

[Richard Bush via CnC-List]

 Riley, Ditto what David Risch said; Thank you; your explanation is the first 
thing I have read about lithium batteries that I understand and that makes 
sense! thanks again!
 
Richard
 s/v Bushmark4: 1985 C 37 CB; Ohio River, Mile 584;

Richard N. Bush Law Offices 
2950 Breckenridge Lane, Suite Nine 
Louisville, Kentucky 40220-1462 
502-584-7255 
 
-Original Message-
From: David Risch via CnC-List 
To: Stus-List 
Cc: David Risch 
Sent: Wed, Sep 15, 2021 1:52 pm
Subject: Stus-List Re: anyone gone lithium?

 Riley,    This was great worthy of printing 
and saving.  Thank you!    From: Riley Anderson via CnC-List 

Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2021 11:39 AM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Della Barba, Joe ; Riley Anderson 

Subject: Stus-List Re: anyone gone lithium?    Hi Joe and any others interested 
in this topic.    I install lithium batteries as my side job and after 
installing lithium on our 38-ii and other large boats and consulting on another 
half dozen boats, I can speak with some authority on this topic.    The risk of 
serious electrical or fire damage can be entirely mitigated by properly 
installing the right equipment and following a strict circuit topology. Most 
people who have installed lithium do not do this and this is precisely why we 
hear about "lithium fires" so commonly.    Before diving into the details, you 
should be aware that in order to safely install lithium batteries on a boat, 
you need to buy top-quality gear that is compatible with the exact lithium 
chemistry of your batteries. Can you use an AGM charge profile from the old 
charger you have lying around? Sure, you may be willing to take more risks than 
others but this is not acceptable in a professional install and it also reduces 
the efficiency of your expensive batteries that you bought for their high 
efficiency in the first place! It is these "indirect" costs of making the 
lithium safe aboard that will dramatically increase the investment cost. Also, 
in order to take full advantage of the perks of lithium you need to be able to 
efficiently charge the system. This means a substantial solar array or very 
high output alternator (often requiring serpentine belts and larger 
pulleys).For the weekend sailor or anyone tied to a dock most of their season, 
these costs cannot be justified over conventional lead-acid or AGM technology.  
  My wife and I live aboard and spend our entire season on anchor or mooring. 
This is where lithium shines. We have 720 watts of solar and 320 Ah of 
lithium.We run a fridge, separate freezer, fans, computers, microwave, electric 
kettle, with enough excess power each day to either make 6 gallons of hot water 
through the inverter or run a 5000 BTU air conditioner on high for 5 hours 
through the night. We have all the luxuries of home and are never concerned 
about running out of power.     The details:    The Battleborn, Dakota, and 
Renogy batteries that advertise a "drop-in" replacement for lead-acid should 
never be used on a boat. These were designed for van-lifers who can pull over 
and escape if something goes horribly wrong.     The key with lithium is that 
you need to protect both your boat and its electronics and your substantial 
investment in batteries. Lithium batteries will not tolerate overcharging, this 
is where the fire risk comes in. On the other hand, over-discharging will not 
cause a fire risk but will destroy your battery. The "drop-in" replacement 
batteries "solve" this by disconnecting their terminals in the case of either 
overcharge or over-discharge. This is unacceptable on a boat for two reasons: 
1) most obviously, if you lose all DC power underway, you no longer have VHF, 
depth, chartplotter, bilge pumps, radar, etc. 2) if the alternator is spinning 
but there is no battery to accept the charge, it will send unregulated voltage 
through the entire electrical system.    The proper way to install lithium 
involves implementing a dual-DC bus topology where all of the charge sources 
come into a single "charge bus" and all of the loads run on a separate "load 
bus". Victron Energy is the only company with off-the-shelf batteries and 
related components to implement such a system. Of course, the savy DIYer can 
build their own lithium banks and program a compatible battery management 
system to achieve a similar end result but this involves a serious appreciation 
for the nuances of lithium and circuitry design. Essentially, a battery 
management system (BMS) will both balance the individual cells in a battery and 
measure the voltage of each cell. If any single cell reaches its upper voltage 
threshold value, the BMS triggers a relay to disconnect the charge bus and 
prevent overcharging (keep in mind, there are other steps necessary to protect 
alternators, I'll come back to this later). If any cell reaches its lower 
voltage threshold, the BMS similarly triggers a relay disconnecting the load 
bus to prevent over-discharge. The separation of charge and 

Stus-List Re: anyone gone lithium?

[David Risch via CnC-List]

Riley,

This was great worthy of printing and saving.  Thank you!

From: Riley Anderson via CnC-List 
Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2021 11:39 AM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Della Barba, Joe ; Riley Anderson 

Subject: Stus-List Re: anyone gone lithium?

Hi Joe and any others interested in this topic.

I install lithium batteries as my side job and after installing lithium on our 
38-ii and other large boats and consulting on another half dozen boats, I can 
speak with some authority on this topic.

The risk of serious electrical or fire damage can be entirely mitigated by 
properly installing the right equipment and following a strict circuit 
topology. Most people who have installed lithium do not do this and this is 
precisely why we hear about "lithium fires" so commonly.

Before diving into the details, you should be aware that in order to safely 
install lithium batteries on a boat, you need to buy top-quality gear that is 
compatible with the exact lithium chemistry of your batteries. Can you use an 
AGM charge profile from the old charger you have lying around? Sure, you may be 
willing to take more risks than others but this is not acceptable in a 
professional install and it also reduces the efficiency of your expensive 
batteries that you bought for their high efficiency in the first place! It is 
these "indirect" costs of making the lithium safe aboard that will dramatically 
increase the investment cost. Also, in order to take full advantage of the 
perks of lithium you need to be able to efficiently charge the system. This 
means a substantial solar array or very high output alternator (often requiring 
serpentine belts and larger pulleys). For the weekend sailor or anyone tied to 
a dock most of their season, these costs cannot be justified over conventional 
lead-acid or AGM technology.

My wife and I live aboard and spend our entire season on anchor or mooring. 
This is where lithium shines. We have 720 watts of solar and 320 Ah of lithium. 
We run a fridge, separate freezer, fans, computers, microwave, electric kettle, 
with enough excess power each day to either make 6 gallons of hot water through 
the inverter or run a 5000 BTU air conditioner on high for 5 hours through the 
night. We have all the luxuries of home and are never concerned about running 
out of power.

The details:

The Battleborn, Dakota, and Renogy batteries that advertise a "drop-in" 
replacement for lead-acid should never be used on a boat. These were designed 
for van-lifers who can pull over and escape if something goes horribly wrong.

The key with lithium is that you need to protect both your boat and its 
electronics and your substantial investment in batteries. Lithium batteries 
will not tolerate overcharging, this is where the fire risk comes in. On the 
other hand, over-discharging will not cause a fire risk but will destroy your 
battery. The "drop-in" replacement batteries "solve" this by disconnecting 
their terminals in the case of either overcharge or over-discharge. This is 
unacceptable on a boat for two reasons: 1) most obviously, if you lose all DC 
power underway, you no longer have VHF, depth, chartplotter, bilge pumps, 
radar, etc. 2) if the alternator is spinning but there is no battery to accept 
the charge, it will send unregulated voltage through the entire electrical 
system.

The proper way to install lithium involves implementing a dual-DC bus topology 
where all of the charge sources come into a single "charge bus" and all of the 
loads run on a separate "load bus". Victron Energy is the only company with 
off-the-shelf batteries and related components to implement such a system. Of 
course, the savy DIYer can build their own lithium banks and program a 
compatible battery management system to achieve a similar end result but this 
involves a serious appreciation for the nuances of lithium and circuitry 
design. Essentially, a battery management system (BMS) will both balance the 
individual cells in a battery and measure the voltage of each cell. If any 
single cell reaches its upper voltage threshold value, the BMS triggers a relay 
to disconnect the charge bus and prevent overcharging (keep in mind, there are 
other steps necessary to protect alternators, I'll come back to this later). If 
any cell reaches its lower voltage threshold, the BMS similarly triggers a 
relay disconnecting the load bus to prevent over-discharge. The separation of 
charge and load busses is critical as it allows the system to recover on its 
own. In the event of a low-voltage disconnect, the charge bus remains connected 
and the battery can recharge. In a high-voltage disconnect, the loads are still 
connected and can bring the battery back down to a safer voltage.

To charge lithium from an alternator, you need a lead-acid or AGM in between to 
act as a buffer (most commonly, this can be your starter battery). The 
alternator charges the lead battery. Connected to the lead battery is a DC-DC 
charger that is 

Stus-List Re: [EXTERNAL] Now Gel Batteries

[Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List]

Forgot to mention – the Deka gel in the same size costs a lot more. The TCO is 
probably about the same.

From: Joe Della Barba via CnC-List 
Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2021 1:00 PM
To: 'Stus-List' 
Cc: j...@dellabarba.com
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Stus-List Now Gel Batteries

Those, like about 98% of what you find searching for gel batteries, are really 
AGMs of a sort. The charge voltages are WAY off from what a gel uses.
There are 1001 different versions of Chinese batteries to be found for much 
less than Deka gels and I really have no idea how good any of them are. Those 
would probably start an engine just fine.
YMMV on how long they last.
If you want to go AGM, Sams Club sells private label versions of the very same 
Deka AGM batteries as West Marine for half the price.
https://www.samsclub.com/p/duracell-agm-deep-cycle-marine-and-rv-battery-group-size-31dtmagm/prod3590232?xid=plp_product_7
They are also about 100 AH, start engines just fine, and cost $10 less.

Joe
Coquina

From: Matthew via CnC-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2021 12:41 PM
To: 'Stus-List' mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Cc: Matthew mailto:wolf...@erie.net>>
Subject: Stus-List Re: Fwd: Re: anyone gone lithium?

Thanks, Joe.  I was looking at something like this for my two house batteries.

Amazon.com: Mighty Max Battery 12V 100AH Gel Battery Replaces Solar Wind Deep 
Cycle VRLA 12V 24V 48V Brand Product : Health & 
Household

What do you think?  Also, do you use the same batteries for both house and 
engine starting?  I know the starting battery will also need to be gel for 
charging purposes, but all the gels I’ve seen appear to be deep cycle, and not 
designed for engine starting.

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: Fwd: Re: anyone gone lithium?

[Richard Servance via CnC-List]

Following this thread with popcorn.  I have a battery purchase in my near
future.  Took my first cruise beyond a weekend and discovered while
troubleshooting why the engine wouldn't start that all my batteries are
start batteries.  They were installed last year prior to my purchase.
Optima 34M AGMs, which the OEM confirms will not do.  The frustrating thing
is that the correct batteries cost essentially the same price as the wrong
ones (D34M in this case).  This oopsie will set me back a few boat bucks no
matter which path I take (aside from only day sailing).  I was thinking
lithium would be the way to go, but staying with AGM seems to have
advantages too.  Gel sounds promising too.  Lithium may be overkill for my
mix of day sailing, sometimes club racing, and occasional cruising.  I
don't need to push any envelopes, just have enough power to spend a night
on the hook and have confidence the engine will crank in the morning.

Keep the learning coming.


*Richard L. Servance*

C 34+ Blue Heaven


On Wed, Sep 15, 2021 at 9:41 AM Matthew via CnC-List 
wrote:

> Thanks, Joe.  I was looking at something like this for my two house
> batteries.
>
>
>
> Amazon.com: Mighty Max Battery 12V 100AH Gel Battery Replaces Solar Wind
> Deep Cycle VRLA 12V 24V 48V Brand Product : Health & Household
> 
>
>
>
> What do you think?  Also, do you use the same batteries for both house and
> engine starting?  I know the starting battery will also need to be gel for
> charging purposes, but all the gels I’ve seen appear to be deep cycle, and
> not designed for engine starting.
>
>
>
> *From:* Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List 
> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 15, 2021 12:21 PM
> *To:* Stus-List 
> *Cc:* Della Barba, Joe 
> *Subject:* Stus-List Re: Fwd: Re: anyone gone lithium?
>
>
>
> Yes – that is what I have now.
>
> Gels are good batteries, but VERY hard to find. If you ask for them, most
> battery shops will give you an AGM battery. Gels have close to twice the
> lifespan of most AGMs.
>
> They never need water and can be mounted without a case. They do require a
> unique charge profile and will be rapidly damaged by flooded battery
> settings.
>
> Also keep in mind for a given size, flooded batteries, AGMs, and gels all
> have about the same capacity. A 4D wet cell, AGM, or gel all come in around
> 180-190 AH or so. To contrast, a 4D lithium battery that is 200 AH has air
> space in the case, you can also get 300 AH lithium batteries in a 4D case.
>
>
>
>
>
> *Joe Della Barba*
>
> Coquina
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Matthew via CnC-List 
> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 15, 2021 11:52 AM
> *To:* 'Stus-List' 
> *Cc:* Matthew 
> *Subject:* [EXTERNAL] Stus-List Re: Fwd: Re: anyone gone lithium?
>
>
>
> While on the battery discussion, I have lead acid batteries, which have
> served me fairly well in light of how I use my boat.  However, I was
> thinking about going to gel batteries, primarily because deep cycle gels
> can provide a lot of a/h for the house.  Does anyone have experience with
> gel deep cycle batteries?
>
>
>
> Matt
>
> C 42 Custom
>
>
> Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with
> the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks
> - Stu
Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Now Gel Batteries

[Joe Della Barba via CnC-List]

Those, like about 98% of what you find searching for gel batteries, are really 
AGMs of a sort. The charge voltages are WAY off from what a gel uses.

There are 1001 different versions of Chinese batteries to be found for much 
less than Deka gels and I really have no idea how good any of them are. Those 
would probably start an engine just fine.

YMMV on how long they last.

If you want to go AGM, Sams Club sells private label versions of the very same 
Deka AGM batteries as West Marine for half the price.

https://www.samsclub.com/p/duracell-agm-deep-cycle-marine-and-rv-battery-group-size-31dtmagm/prod3590232?xid=plp_product_7

They are also about 100 AH, start engines just fine, and cost $10 less. 

 

Joe

Coquina

 

From: Matthew via CnC-List  
Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2021 12:41 PM
To: 'Stus-List' 
Cc: Matthew 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Fwd: Re: anyone gone lithium?

 

Thanks, Joe.  I was looking at something like this for my two house batteries.

 

Amazon.com: Mighty Max Battery 12V 100AH Gel Battery Replaces Solar Wind Deep 
Cycle VRLA 12V 24V 48V Brand Product : Health  

 & Household

 

What do you think?  Also, do you use the same batteries for both house and 
engine starting?  I know the starting battery will also need to be gel for 
charging purposes, but all the gels I’ve seen appear to be deep cycle, and not 
designed for engine starting.

 

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: Fwd: Re: anyone gone lithium?

[Matthew via CnC-List]

Thanks, Joe.  I was looking at something like this for my two house batteries.

 

Amazon.com: Mighty Max Battery 12V 100AH Gel Battery Replaces Solar Wind Deep 
Cycle VRLA 12V 24V 48V Brand Product : Health  

 & Household

 

What do you think?  Also, do you use the same batteries for both house and 
engine starting?  I know the starting battery will also need to be gel for 
charging purposes, but all the gels I’ve seen appear to be deep cycle, and not 
designed for engine starting.

 

From: Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List  
Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2021 12:21 PM
To: Stus-List 
Cc: Della Barba, Joe 
Subject: Stus-List Re: Fwd: Re: anyone gone lithium?

 

Yes – that is what I have now.

Gels are good batteries, but VERY hard to find. If you ask for them, most 
battery shops will give you an AGM battery. Gels have close to twice the 
lifespan of most AGMs.

They never need water and can be mounted without a case. They do require a 
unique charge profile and will be rapidly damaged by flooded battery settings.

Also keep in mind for a given size, flooded batteries, AGMs, and gels all have 
about the same capacity. A 4D wet cell, AGM, or gel all come in around 180-190 
AH or so. To contrast, a 4D lithium battery that is 200 AH has air space in the 
case, you can also get 300 AH lithium batteries in a 4D case.

 

 

Joe Della Barba

Coquina

 

 

From: Matthew via CnC-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> > 
Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2021 11:52 AM
To: 'Stus-List' mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> >
Cc: Matthew mailto:wolf...@erie.net> >
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Stus-List Re: Fwd: Re: anyone gone lithium?

 

While on the battery discussion, I have lead acid batteries, which have served 
me fairly well in light of how I use my boat.  However, I was thinking about 
going to gel batteries, primarily because deep cycle gels can provide a lot of 
a/h for the house.  Does anyone have experience with gel deep cycle batteries?

 

Matt

C 42 Custom 

 

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: Fwd: Re: anyone gone lithium?

[Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List]

Yes – that is what I have now.
Gels are good batteries, but VERY hard to find. If you ask for them, most 
battery shops will give you an AGM battery. Gels have close to twice the 
lifespan of most AGMs.
They never need water and can be mounted without a case. They do require a 
unique charge profile and will be rapidly damaged by flooded battery settings.
Also keep in mind for a given size, flooded batteries, AGMs, and gels all have 
about the same capacity. A 4D wet cell, AGM, or gel all come in around 180-190 
AH or so. To contrast, a 4D lithium battery that is 200 AH has air space in the 
case, you can also get 300 AH lithium batteries in a 4D case.


Joe Della Barba
Coquina


From: Matthew via CnC-List 
Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2021 11:52 AM
To: 'Stus-List' 
Cc: Matthew 
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Stus-List Re: Fwd: Re: anyone gone lithium?

While on the battery discussion, I have lead acid batteries, which have served 
me fairly well in light of how I use my boat.  However, I was thinking about 
going to gel batteries, primarily because deep cycle gels can provide a lot of 
a/h for the house.  Does anyone have experience with gel deep cycle batteries?

Matt
C 42 Custom

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: Fwd: Re: anyone gone lithium?

[Matthew via CnC-List]

While on the battery discussion, I have lead acid batteries, which have served 
me fairly well in light of how I use my boat.  However, I was thinking about 
going to gel batteries, primarily because deep cycle gels can provide a lot of 
a/h for the house.  Does anyone have experience with gel deep cycle batteries?

 

Matt

C 42 Custom 

 

From: Dreuge via CnC-List  
Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2021 3:11 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Dreuge 
Subject: Stus-List Fwd: Re: anyone gone lithium?

 

Hi,

 

The message below bounced back to me as I tried to include a pdf file.  I 
replaced the attachment with a google doc link andI’m  resending the message.  
Sorry if you get the message twice.

 

Paul

...

 

Hi,

 


This was my argument last year, but the costs for LFP is now less than Walmart 
batteries!   It depends on one needs.  I agree that there are little to no 
benefits for day sailing.  

I went a little overboard and replaced 2 group 31s with 560AH which cost me 
under $1k USD.  I could have cut that in half for 280AH.

What’s the upside? 
* occupies the same space & location used by the 2 group 31s 
* weighs less (95 lbs vs 125 lbs)
* over 5 TIMES the original capacity
* no more watering batteries
* no more replacing batteries
* equivalent in capacity to over TEN (10) Walmart Deep Cycle 
batteries  
  
I have attached a link to slides from a talk I gave last week at a local HAM 
radio club which basically covers the LifePO4, solar, and power upgrade 
process. 

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-6GIrXPr5SEE5HWvAzs6yEt3K4x7y-lF/view?usp=sharing

 

 

 

-
Paul E.
1981 C Landfall 38 
S/V Johanna Rose
Fort Walton Beach, FL

http://svjohannarose.blogspot.com/

 

 

 

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: anyone gone lithium?

[Riley Anderson via CnC-List]

Hi Joe and any others interested in this topic.

I install lithium batteries as my side job and after installing lithium on
our 38-ii and other large boats and consulting on another half dozen boats,
I can speak with some authority on this topic.

*The risk of serious electrical or fire damage can be entirely mitigated by
properly installing the right equipment and following a strict circuit
topology. Most people who have installed lithium do not do this and this is
precisely why we hear about "lithium fires" so commonly.*

Before diving into the details, you should be aware that in order to safely
install lithium batteries on a boat, you need to buy top-quality gear that
is compatible with the exact lithium chemistry of your batteries. Can you
use an AGM charge profile from the old charger you have lying around? Sure,
you may be willing to take more risks than others but this is not
acceptable in a professional install and it also reduces the efficiency of
your expensive batteries that you bought for their high efficiency in the
first place! It is these "indirect" costs of making the lithium safe aboard
that will dramatically increase the investment cost. Also, in order to take
full advantage of the perks of lithium you need to be able to efficiently
charge the system. This means a substantial solar array or very high output
alternator (often requiring serpentine belts and larger pulleys). *For the
weekend sailor or anyone tied to a dock most of their season, these costs
cannot be justified over conventional lead-acid or AGM technology.*

My wife and I live aboard and spend our entire season on anchor or mooring.
This is where lithium shines. We have 720 watts of solar and 320 Ah of
lithium. *We run a fridge, separate freezer, fans, computers, microwave,
electric kettle, with enough excess power each day to either make 6 gallons
of hot water through the inverter or run a 5000 BTU air conditioner on high
for 5 hours through the night.* We have all the luxuries of home and are
never concerned about running out of power.

*The details:*

The Battleborn, Dakota, and Renogy batteries that advertise *a "drop-in"
replacement for lead-acid should never be used on a boat*. These were
designed for van-lifers who can pull over and escape if something goes
horribly wrong.

The key with lithium is that you need to protect both your boat and
its electronics and your substantial investment in batteries. Lithium
batteries will not tolerate overcharging, this is where the fire risk comes
in. On the other hand, over-discharging will not cause a fire risk but will
destroy your battery. The "drop-in" replacement batteries "solve" this by
disconnecting their terminals in the case of either overcharge or
over-discharge. This is unacceptable on a boat for two reasons: 1) most
obviously, if you lose all DC power underway, you no longer have VHF,
depth, chartplotter, bilge pumps, radar, etc. 2) if the alternator is
spinning but there is no battery to accept the charge, it will send
unregulated voltage through the entire electrical system.

The proper way to install lithium involves implementing a dual-DC bus
topology where all of the charge sources come into a single "charge bus"
and all of the loads run on a separate "load bus". Victron Energy is the
only company with off-the-shelf batteries and related components to
implement such a system. Of course, the savy DIYer can build their own
lithium banks and program a compatible battery management system to achieve
a similar end result but this involves a serious appreciation for the
nuances of lithium and circuitry design. Essentially, a battery management
system (BMS) will both balance the individual cells in a battery and
measure the voltage of each cell. If any single cell reaches its upper
voltage threshold value, the BMS triggers a relay to disconnect the charge
bus and prevent overcharging (keep in mind, there are other steps necessary
to protect alternators, I'll come back to this later). If any cell reaches
its lower voltage threshold, the BMS similarly triggers a relay
disconnecting the load bus to prevent over-discharge. The separation of
charge and load busses is critical as it allows the system to recover on
its own. In the event of a low-voltage disconnect, the charge bus remains
connected and the battery can recharge. In a high-voltage disconnect, the
loads are still connected and can bring the battery back down to a safer
voltage.

To charge lithium from an alternator, you need a lead-acid or AGM in
between to act as a buffer (most commonly, this can be your starter
battery). The alternator charges the lead battery. Connected to the lead
battery is a DC-DC charger that is capable of three-stage charging with
LiFePO4 charge profiles. This charger then runs into the charge bus
mentioned above. The Victron Energy Orion Smart charger
 is a great choice here (Bluetooth programmable
and automatically detects when the engine is running so that you 

Stus-List Re: A4 Alternator

[Joe Della Barba via CnC-List]

My 50 amp Motorola that came with my engine has probably been back to the
shop for diode replacement at least twice and still works, I keep it as a
spare.

Since you are sticking with flooded lead-acid, you can get by with various
10si clones or another Motorola. There are usually a few A4 alternators on
FleaBay for cheap. Try and find a 50 instead of a 35.

Also there are tons of cheap 10si clones at various amp rating from 50 to
over 100. You need a MARINE alternator, they are ignition protected. "10si
Marine Alternator" will bring up a ton of them. Moyer also sells a couple
alternators a cut above the cheap Chinese knockoffs.

 

 

Joe Della Barba

Coquina C 35 MK I

Kent Island MD USA

 

 

 

From: Neil Gallagher via CnC-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> >
Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2021 7:02:35 AM
To: j...@dellabarba.com   mailto:j...@dellabarba.com> >; 'Stus-List' mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> >
Cc: Neil Gallagher mailto:njgallag...@optonline.net> >
Subject: Stus-List Re: A4 Alternator 

 

I'm staying with lead-acid batteries.  As Dave points out, it may not be
worth the cost to upgrade, I may just have my existing alternator rebuilt.

Thanks for the info.

Neil Gallagher
Weatherly, 35-1
Glen Cove, NY

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: A4 Alternator

[Korbey Hunt via CnC-List]

I replaced my batteries with no maintenance Optima deep cycle 100 ah batteries. 
 You can mount them upside down if needed. About $300 each. I keep my boat in 
MX on the hard in the summer.  The lead acid GC 6v batts would fail after one 
season from loss of liquid and heat.  No worries with Optima.

Get Outlook for Android

From: Neil Gallagher via CnC-List 
Sent: Wednesday, September 15, 2021 7:02:35 AM
To: j...@dellabarba.com ; 'Stus-List' 

Cc: Neil Gallagher 
Subject: Stus-List Re: A4 Alternator

I'm staying with lead-acid batteries.  As Dave points out, it may not be worth 
the cost to upgrade, I may just have my existing alternator rebuilt.

Thanks for the info.

Neil Gallagher
Weatherly, 35-1
Glen Cove, NY

On 9/15/2021 6:29 AM, j...@dellabarba.com wrote:

Note you will need one of these to fit a Balmar, 10si clone, or other 
alternator that isn’t a stock Motorola onto an A4:

https://moyermarine.com/product/alternator-support-arm-late-model-ovel_03_222/



Balmar does make alternators that fit, but be prepared to spend $ if you 
buy one new. Moyer sells a couple of them too. What kind of batteries are you 
charging?





Joe Della Barba

Coquina C 35 MK I

Kent Island MD USA





From: Neil Gallagher via CnC-List 

Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2021 8:24 PM
To: Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List 

Cc: Neil Gallagher 
Subject: Stus-List Re: A4 Alternator



Joe,

Thanks, that's good info.

Neil Gallagher
Weatherly 35-1
Glen Cove, NY

On 9/14/2021 6:48 PM, Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List wrote:

The 60 amp Balmar I have fit the mounts just fine.

Here is a thread about installing it.

Balmar Alternator Installation and Test - Moyer Marine Atomic 4 Community - 
Home of the Afourians 
(moyermarineforum.com)



I only paid around $60 for it if I recall correctly. A new Balmar is very 
expensive and probably not worth putting on an A4. Due to the pulley ratios you 
are not likely to get more than 50-60 amps out of any alternator you put on 
there.





Joe Della Barba

Coquina

C 35 MK I



From: Neil Gallagher via CnC-List 

Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2021 6:31 PM
To: Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List 

Cc: Neil Gallagher 
Subject: Stus-List Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: anyone gone lithium?



Joe,

Also a bit of thread creep, but I'm in the process of rebuilding or replacing 
my alternator on the A4.  Does the Balmar fit on the engine without significant 
modifications?

Neil Gallagher
Weatherly 35-1
Glen Cove NY




Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
  Thanks - Stu



Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: A4 Alternator

[Neil Gallagher via CnC-List]

I'm staying with lead-acid batteries.  As Dave points out, it may not be 
worth the cost to upgrade, I may just have my existing alternator rebuilt.


Thanks for the info.

Neil Gallagher
Weatherly, 35-1
Glen Cove, NY

On 9/15/2021 6:29 AM, j...@dellabarba.com wrote:


Note you will need one of these to fit a Balmar, 10si clone, or other 
alternator that isn’t a stock Motorola onto an A4:


https://moyermarine.com/product/alternator-support-arm-late-model-ovel_03_222/

Balmar does make alternators that fit, but be prepared to spend $ 
if you buy one new. Moyer sells a couple of them too. What kind of 
batteries are you charging?


Joe Della Barba

Coquina C 35 MK I

Kent Island MD USA

*From:*Neil Gallagher via CnC-List 
*Sent:* Tuesday, September 14, 2021 8:24 PM
*To:* Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List 
*Cc:* Neil Gallagher 
*Subject:* Stus-List Re: A4 Alternator

Joe,

Thanks, that's good info.

Neil Gallagher
Weatherly 35-1
Glen Cove, NY

On 9/14/2021 6:48 PM, Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List wrote:

The 60 amp Balmar I have fit the mounts just fine.

Here is a thread about installing it.

Balmar Alternator Installation and Test - Moyer Marine Atomic 4
Community - Home of the Afourians (moyermarineforum.com)



I only paid around $60 for it if I recall correctly. A new Balmar
is very expensive and probably not worth putting on an A4. Due to
the pulley ratios you are not likely to get more than 50-60 amps
out of any alternator you put on there.

*/Joe Della Barba/*

Coquina

C 35 MK I

*From:*Neil Gallagher via CnC-List 

*Sent:* Tuesday, September 14, 2021 6:31 PM
*To:* Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List 

*Cc:* Neil Gallagher 

*Subject:* Stus-List Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: anyone gone lithium?

Joe,

Also a bit of thread creep, but I'm in the process of rebuilding
or replacing my alternator on the A4.  Does the Balmar fit on the
engine without significant modifications?

Neil Gallagher
Weatherly 35-1
Glen Cove NY




Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with 
the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal 
to send contribution --https://www.paypal.me/stumurray   Thanks - Stu



Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: anyone gone lithium?

[Dreuge via CnC-List]

Joe,

I already suggested this to another lister, purchase 4 small 6AH LiFePO4 cells 
and a decent BMS.  Connect the cells in a 4S configuration along with the BMS 
wires.  It is a great way understand the BMS operations and run through many 
charge/discharge tests. 

I did this recently with 4 cells (type  32700 6AH LiFePO4) purchased from Ebay 
($24).  I clamped the cells together between 2 scrap pieces of starboard, and I 
used some 1” wide copper braid for making the 4S battery cell connections, but 
other material should work fine.  I did this to test a second BMS, identical to 
my first except the new one has a RS485 com port.  Both have bluetooth and the 
iOS app is great, but I wanted to connect the BMS to a raspberry pi for 
graphing long term performance and remote monitoring.  

Here are a few link:

eBay LiFePO4 cells: 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/283963906954

BMS: 

https://www.lithiumbatterypcb.com/product/4s-or-3s-12v-li-ion-or-lifepo4-battery-smart-bms-with-bluetooth-function-uart-and-rs485-communication-with-60a-to-120a-constant-current/
 


I choose the BMS options: 4S 120A Lifepo4 With UART and RS485 and I also 
purchased the $7 RS485 communication module for USB connection.  

You may or may not want to hack around with the RS485 and keep it simple with 
just the Bluetooth interface, only a $2-3 difference.  This BMS is highly 
recommended from the solar DIY community, and I am very happy with its 
operations. 

I just threw some photos of this set up on my blog (no text).  See link below.  
The last photo shows the out from a simple python program which read the BMS 
data via USB cable and plots the values for the past 2 hrs and 48hrs.

https://www.blogger.com/blog/post/edit/5300937164934526048/7297536651823236179?hl=en

Paul

-
Paul E.
1981 C Landfall 38 
S/V Johanna Rose
Fort Walton Beach, FL

http://svjohannarose.blogspot.com/

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List HowToMarine's Rod Collins AKA Mainesail

[Danny Haughey via CnC-List]

Listers, I just heard Rod Collins, aka Maine Sail, aka Compass Marine, aka 
HowToMarine, had a hemorrhagic stroke last week. He has survived the stroke, is 
out of ICU and headed to Rehab.  Apparently he is already on the mend and 
joking around with nurses but, he's got quite a battle in his recovery ahead. 
Rodd has been an inspiration to many of us and has provided untold hours of 
support to the boating community through his website www.MarineHowTo.com and on 
the Musings with Maine Sail forum on Sailboatowners.com. Rodd has also worked 
with ABYC and Practical Sailor on issues relating to marine electrical systems. 
Personally, Rodd has been a guru. I am a frequent visitor to his site as well 
as a customer. The bulk of what I have learned about marine electrical systems 
has come from Rodd. I hope that his recovery is quick and that he is able to 
return to what he loved, helping others enjoy their boats and learn about 
marine systems.  When I have a new project to accomplish on my boats, 
MarineHowTo is always one of my first research tools.  He seems to have covered 
at least something on just about everything we could come upon in our boat 
maintenance and upgrades. Phil Herring has posted more information on 
SailboatOwners.com. Heres a link to his post: 
https://forums.sailboatowners.com/threads/maine-sail-update.1249931174/ 
Ill be sending a contribution to his recovery and hope others might be 
able to follow suit. Danny  Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: anyone gone lithium?

[Joe Della Barba via CnC-List]

I was not originally going to try and build a battery from individual cells, 
but now I think I might. I can get a better BMS than most of the assembled 
batteries seem to come with and if the BMS dies, I can replace it for $50 vs. 
throwing out a $700 battery.

 

Joe Della Barba

Coquina C 35 MK I

Kent Island MD USA

 

 

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: A4 Alternator

[Dave via CnC-List]

Neil, I went down this rabbit hole awhile back. There’s some useful info on the marinehowto site, a couple of alternator-specific articles and a section in the article below covering “do I really need a high performance alternator”.    Rod, who runs the site is knowledgeable and thorough.    https://marinehowto.com/automotive-alternators-vs-deep-cycle-batteries/ Now the opinion part:   For my use-case, with a 2gm20 yanmar, the balmar alternator/smart reg didn’t really hit the mark.   As pointed out by joe, these setups are not cheap vs a stock-type unit.     My takeaway was that with sufficient engine power, a larger house bank supporting heavy electricity use,  (likely involving air conditioning or 120v ac appliances and an inverter) and a situation where charging was more critical (like long distance cruising) these big alternators/smart regulators come into their own. Dave – 33-2  Sent from Mail for Windows From: Joe Della Barba via CnC-ListSent: September 15, 2021 6:30 AMTo: Stus-ListCc: Neil Gallagher; j...@dellabarba.comSubject: Stus-List Re: A4 Alternator Note you will need one of these to fit a Balmar, 10si clone, or other alternator that isn’t a stock Motorola onto an A4:https://moyermarine.com/product/alternator-support-arm-late-model-ovel_03_222/ Balmar does make alternators that fit, but be prepared to spend $ if you buy one new. Moyer sells a couple of them too. What kind of batteries are you charging?  Joe Della BarbaCoquina C 35 MK IKent Island MD USA   From: Neil Gallagher via CnC-List  Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2021 8:24 PMTo: Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List Cc: Neil Gallagher Subject: Stus-List Re: A4 Alternator Joe,Thanks, that's good info.Neil GallagherWeatherly 35-1Glen Cove, NYOn 9/14/2021 6:48 PM, Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List wrote:The 60 amp Balmar I have fit the mounts just fine.Here is a thread about installing it.Balmar Alternator Installation and Test - Moyer Marine Atomic 4 Community - Home of the Afourians (moyermarineforum.com) I only paid around $60 for it if I recall correctly. A new Balmar is very expensive and probably not worth putting on an A4. Due to the pulley ratios you are not likely to get more than 50-60 amps out of any alternator you put on there.  Joe Della BarbaCoquinaC 35 MK I From: Neil Gallagher via CnC-List  Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2021 6:31 PMTo: Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List Cc: Neil Gallagher Subject: Stus-List Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: anyone gone lithium? Joe,Also a bit of thread creep, but I'm in the process of rebuilding or replacing my alternator on the A4.  Does the Balmar fit on the engine without significant modifications?Neil GallagherWeatherly 35-1Glen Cove NYThanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu  Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Re: A4 Alternator

[Joe Della Barba via CnC-List]

Note you will need one of these to fit a Balmar, 10si clone, or other 
alternator that isn’t a stock Motorola onto an A4:

https://moyermarine.com/product/alternator-support-arm-late-model-ovel_03_222/

 

Balmar does make alternators that fit, but be prepared to spend $ if you 
buy one new. Moyer sells a couple of them too. What kind of batteries are you 
charging?

 

 

Joe Della Barba

Coquina C 35 MK I

Kent Island MD USA

 

 

From: Neil Gallagher via CnC-List  
Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2021 8:24 PM
To: Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List 
Cc: Neil Gallagher 
Subject: Stus-List Re: A4 Alternator

 

Joe,

Thanks, that's good info.

Neil Gallagher
Weatherly 35-1
Glen Cove, NY

On 9/14/2021 6:48 PM, Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List wrote:

The 60 amp Balmar I have fit the mounts just fine.

Here is a thread about installing it.

Balmar Alternator Installation and Test - Moyer Marine Atomic 4 Community - 
Home of the Afourians (moyermarineforum.com) 

 

 

I only paid around $60 for it if I recall correctly. A new Balmar is very 
expensive and probably not worth putting on an A4. Due to the pulley ratios you 
are not likely to get more than 50-60 amps out of any alternator you put on 
there.

 

 

Joe Della Barba

Coquina

C 35 MK I

 

From: Neil Gallagher via CnC-List   
 
Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2021 6:31 PM
To: Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List   

Cc: Neil Gallagher   

Subject: Stus-List Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: anyone gone lithium?

 

Joe,

Also a bit of thread creep, but I'm in the process of rebuilding or replacing 
my alternator on the A4.  Does the Balmar fit on the engine without significant 
modifications?

Neil Gallagher
Weatherly 35-1
Glen Cove NY






Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

 

Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu