Re: Stus-List Looking at a C 33-2.... known issues?

[Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List]

Bruce

A couple comments about the 33-2 and issues you have raised.

First.  Just about everybody I have known who has or has had a C refers 
to it fondly and as just about the best boat they ever have owned.  Have a 
friend who currently has a Sabre 34 and previously had a C since his 33-2. 
 He has often said that they all should have kept their 33-2s since they were 
great boats and relatively easy and cheap to maintain and race.  Same thing for 
the owner of the C 115 that we race on regularly.  While neither of these two 
ever said they wish they still had their 33 in place of the Sabre of 115 they 
both speak fondly of the boat and talk of all the winning they did while racing 
them.  Compared to the 115 and 34R the 33-2 was very easy to win with and very 
inexpensive to run.

As for the 36 I grew up with a C 36 that our family purchased new in 1981.  I 
always found it a powerful and nice boat to sail on.  However at that time I 
had not comparative experience racing on many other boats in the C line so 
could not comment on the 36 vs the 33-2 from personal experience.  However from 
many years being on the sailing scene since then I do know that I have heard a 
lot of very favourable comments about the 33-2 and not nearly so many about the 
36.  May have something to do with numbers built which I will leave up to you 
to decide.  (my apologies to 36 owners for this)

“cabin sole are screwed down”

I believe this shows only that at some point it was removed and either replaced 
or refinished.  This is pretty common practice.  Likely only the bilge access 
panels are not screwed down.  One note about screwed down varnished wood.  The 
screw heads are likely gummed up with old varnish and particularly difficult to 
remove

“isn't great access to the engine”

Our Frers 33 has a very similar internal layout to the 33-2.  As mentioned by 
others access to dipstick etc is usually from galley side inside a cupboard 
etc.  The other side has a quarterberth.  We installed a large round inspection 
panel to give some access from this side.  Get used to climbing in the cockpit 
lazarette though as it seems that is the only way to get at steering and 
several other items of maintenance in that area.  If boat has the standard 
2GM20 engine you should be able to get at everything more or less reasonably.  
A 33-2 in this area that had issues around stern tube had to remove the engine 
to fully access that area.  That was a pretty unusual thing though and due to a 
misaligned shaft

Mast Step/sump

As mentioned by others this is the one common area of concern on a 33-2.  It 
does not appear to be a major repair item but one that should be addressed and 
just one more good reason to take the mast down in the fall on your first year 
of ownership

Both the 33-2 and 36 are great boats.  The 33-2 in particular gets a lot of 
great reviews from owners past and present.  36 had headroom for my father who 
was 6’3” which is why they bought that rather than a 34 or 32.

Mike
Persistence
1987 Frers 33
Halifax

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Bruce via 
CnC-List
Sent: Friday, September 18, 2015 9:21 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: b...@bgary.com
Subject: Stus-List Looking at a C 33-2 known issues?

I'm looking at a mid-80s C 33-2. Overall, boat looks great, but would love to 
know if there are known issues with these boats that I should pay attention to. 
I know about the potential for wet core, and will be getting a full survey if I 
go forward, I'm more wondering about items peculiar to this model

I'd be especially interested, for example, in knowing if there are patterns of 
things that need attention: things like sealing or rebedding hatches, replacing 
leaky windows, wobbly stanchion bases, hard-to-get-to thru-hulls, etc.

Things that caught my attention in the first inspection:

-- I noticed that there isn't great access to the engine - removing the 
stairs/forward cover provides access to the front, but it looks like it would 
be tough to get to the sides if needed. It looks like the only way to get to 
the shaft coupling and packing gland, for example, is through the cockpit 
lazarette. Has this proven to be an issue, or is it okay?

-- it looks like there has been repair to [at least] the gelcoat at the forward 
end of the fixed plexi windows, both port and starboard. I've read several 
threads about having to replace leaking windows, is this a common problem? And 
would it have required gelcoat repair, or is it possible there was some other 
kind of issue?

-- there are some stress cracks in the gelcoat at either end of the teak trim 
at the top of the transom. Is this normal (eg, just an artifact of a "hard 
corner" in the mold), or does it indicate something potentially more serious?

-- the top of the door to the forward v-berth looks like it has been shaved. In 
other boats, that can be a sign that the interior structure has "racked". but 

Re: Stus-List Looking at a C 33-2.... known issues?

[Paul Fountain via CnC-List]

We have had Perception since 2000, and replaced just about everything in the 15 
years – Love the boat. We looked at upsizing, but realized that not many boats 
sailed as well and were as easy to handle with just 2 of us (well 1 sailing 1 
reading). Perception spent 20 years in salt/brackish water and the last 10 in 
fresh -

We have had the windows done twice – by ‘professionals’ the first did a hack 
job – yes he came recommended - , and it lasted maybe 4 years – too thin plexi, 
did not finish the edges, and messed up the gel coat around the windows. After 
3 years they cracked – had an excellent fiberglass repair craftsman do the 
second (he remembered the first as he was called by the fellow who did the work 
and asked what to do!) Got the plexi made by South Shore from the original 
templates and had the fiberglass and gelcoat around the openings repaired – 
excellent gelcoat match 4 years later you would not know, and they still look 
new.

We have replaced all the hatches with Lewmar Ocean series, as the sun had taken 
a toll on the Bomars that were on her. You may find some cracking where the 
liner and deck meet around the hatch openings if you remove them, which can 
cause leaking – West G2 epoxy fixes the cracks and has a bit of flex needed, 
butyl tape the leaks ☺

We have the K/CB version, so the mast step is not an issue – but on the keel 
version it is something to look at ….

Engine access is a bit awkward, but not too bad, stairs come out, the top of 
the engine box lifts and in the cabinet under the sink there is a panel that 
removes for access to that side of the engine (where the oil dip stick is. If 
you need more access, the entire top of the engine box can be removed easily. 
We have repowered with a Beta when we had to replace a broken motor mount, and 
were going to get the Yanmar rebuilt – in Canada the parts to replace the 
mounts and rebuild the engine were well over ½ the price of the new engine – 
and we saved on labour!

On thru hulls – the engine intake is a long way down, but I can open and close 
it with a boat hook, others are fairly easy to get at.

Not sure on the full keel version, but we have 1 keel bolt under the mast. The 
rest are accessible.

Our floor boards are screwed down on the sides, the ones directly over the 
keel, where the sump is, are not and remove easily. I take the others up 
annually to check on the rest of the bilge and clean it.

Too much back stay and some of the doors bind, not an issue most of the time.

Overall a GREAT boat – any questions let me know

Paul Fountain
Perception II – 1985 C 33-ll K/CB

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Bruce via 
CnC-List
Sent: Friday, September 18, 2015 8:21 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: b...@bgary.com
Subject: Stus-List Looking at a C 33-2 known issues?

I'm looking at a mid-80s C 33-2. Overall, boat looks great, but would love to 
know if there are known issues with these boats that I should pay attention to. 
I know about the potential for wet core, and will be getting a full survey if I 
go forward, I'm more wondering about items peculiar to this model

I'd be especially interested, for example, in knowing if there are patterns of 
things that need attention: things like sealing or rebedding hatches, replacing 
leaky windows, wobbly stanchion bases, hard-to-get-to thru-hulls, etc.

Things that caught my attention in the first inspection:

-- I noticed that there isn't great access to the engine - removing the 
stairs/forward cover provides access to the front, but it looks like it would 
be tough to get to the sides if needed. It looks like the only way to get to 
the shaft coupling and packing gland, for example, is through the cockpit 
lazarette. Has this proven to be an issue, or is it okay?

-- it looks like there has been repair to [at least] the gelcoat at the forward 
end of the fixed plexi windows, both port and starboard. I've read several 
threads about having to replace leaking windows, is this a common problem? And 
would it have required gelcoat repair, or is it possible there was some other 
kind of issue?

-- there are some stress cracks in the gelcoat at either end of the teak trim 
at the top of the transom. Is this normal (eg, just an artifact of a "hard 
corner" in the mold), or does it indicate something potentially more serious?

-- the top of the door to the forward v-berth looks like it has been shaved. In 
other boats, that can be a sign that the interior structure has "racked". but 
all the other doors and drawers seem to be fine. Might be nothing, or... not. 
Anyone ever heard of structural issues in these boats? Is there access to 
inspect the tabbing where the bulkheads are joined to the hull?

-- the various sections of the cabin sole are screwed down. Is this normal, or 
an owner-add? I'm generally a big fan of being able to easily check the bilge 
(and inspect the keelbolts) without tools, unless there's a good rea

Re: Stus-List Looking at a C 33-2.... known issues?

[Bruce via CnC-List]

Thanks for all the great info!
 
I've looked under the settees and v-berth; it all looks clean and dry, no signs of rot, hoses and fittings all look "recent" (actually, throughout the boat, plumbing looks to be in very good shape)
 
All the tabbing that I can get to without tools looks great.  If I go forward with this boat, it'll get a full survey and the tabbing, keel-hull joint and through-hulls are high on the list of things I'll want the surveyor to inspect.  
 
It sounds like the only core in the hull is above the waterline.  If so, that's good news.  I had read (somewhere? maybe an owner's manual?) that C recommends removing the core for an inch around the hole and filling with epoxy putty when installing a thru-hull, so I presumed that the core was in place throughout the hull.  Which wouldn't be uncommon in a late-70s/early-80s build.  I'll find out for-sure when out of the water.
 
I think my two "big" concerns are the mast base and mast step, and some of the deck fittings.  There's corrosion at the bottom of the mast, and if it is simply surface corrosion that's no big deal.   If it can be remediated by pulling the rig and cutting off the bottom 1/4" of the extrusion, that's probably OK.  If it extends farther up and/or has the potential to compromise the rig, that's a deal-breaker.
 
And... previous owner sorta got "creative" with some deck hardware.  Installed a solent-stay that dead-ends in a pad-eye just behind the aft edge of the anchor locker.  It does not appear to have a backing plate, and I don't have a diagram that shows where the solid/reinforced areas of the deck are, so I'm very curious about how strong/well-installed that pad-eye is.  Similarly, there's a windlass mounted on deck just aft of the anchor-locker, and reinforced on the underside with simple flat-washers rather than a backing plate.  Again, curious about whether it is a reinforced area of the deck, or potentially doing damage to the core.
 
Engine has ~3200 hours on it, maintenance records seem to indicate it has been thoughtfully maintained, and the [original] engine mounts seem to be okay - didn't note any vibration or hopping while at idle.
 
Much to think about - thanks for all the great insights!
Bruce
 

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Re: Stus-List Looking at a C 33-2.... known issues?

[Bruce via CnC-List]

Thanks for all the great info!
 
I've looked under the settees and v-berth; it all looks clean and dry,
no signs of rot, hoses and fittings all look "recent" (actually,
throughout the boat, plumbing looks to be in very good shape)
 
All the tabbing that I can get to without tools looks great.  If I go
forward with this boat, it'll get a full survey and the tabbing,
keel-hull joint and through-hulls are high on the list of things I'll
want the surveyor to inspect.  
 
It sounds like the only core in the hull is above the waterline.  If so,
that's good news.  I had read (somewhere? maybe an owner's manual?) that
C recommends removing the core for an inch around the hole and filling
with epoxy putty when installing a thru-hull, so I presumed that the
core was in place throughout the hull.  Which wouldn't be uncommon in a
late-70s/early-80s build.  I'll find out for-sure when out of the water.
 
I think my two "big" concerns are the mast base and mast step, and some
of the deck fittings.  There's corrosion at the bottom of the mast, and
if it is simply surface corrosion that's no big deal.   If it can be
remediated by pulling the rig and cutting off the bottom 1/4" of the
extrusion, that's probably OK.  If it extends farther up and/or has the
potential to compromise the rig, that's a deal-breaker.
 
And... previous owner sorta got "creative" with some deck hardware. 
Installed a solent-stay that dead-ends in a pad-eye just behind the aft
edge of the anchor locker.  It does not appear to have a backing plate,
and I don't have a diagram that shows where the solid/reinforced areas
of the deck are, so I'm very curious about how strong/well-installed
that pad-eye is.  Similarly, there's a windlass mounted on deck just aft
of the anchor-locker, and reinforced on the underside with simple
flat-washers rather than a backing plate.  Again, curious about whether
it is a reinforced area of the deck, or potentially doing damage to the
core.
 
Engine has ~3200 hours on it, maintenance records seem to indicate it
has been thoughtfully maintained, and the [original] engine mounts seem
to be okay - didn't note any vibration or hopping while at idle.
 
Much to think about - thanks for all the great insights!
Bruce

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Re: Stus-List Looking at a C 33-2.... known issues?

[Michael Crombie via CnC-List]

I bought a 33 mkii 3 years ago (my first boat!)

The main issue was the mast step...it needs to be re-inforced. One of the POs 
had a hard grounding and the weak mast step was a problem. I had part of the 
keel stub re-built and the mast step done at Bristol Marine last winter.

The engine access is a pain, but is fine for routine maintenance.

I can guess why the V-berth door has been shaved...I bang my head on it EVERY 
time!

I've had no issues with window leaks or soft deck.

I love the boat. It handles well and is well balanced. I can sail along for 
5-10 min on a near reach without touching the wheel.  And the size is perfect 
for single handing.

Mike
Atacama 33 mkii
Toronto 
Sent wirelessly from my BlackBerry device on the Bell network.
Envoyé sans fil par mon terminal mobile BlackBerry sur le réseau de Bell.
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Re: Stus-List Looking at a C 33-2.... known issues

[Dave via CnC-List]

33-2 - second season with one, was purchased in excellent original condition, 
have had the whole thing apart and am upgrading most systems.

I agree with Jim's  points below and would add as few:

Check the lead keel for hairline cracks and bulges at the lower end of the 
keelboats.   It seems that water seeps into voids around the bolt, settles 
around the cast-in head of the bolt, freezes and expands.   I notice one in our 
yard (whitby ON) last winter with a section of lead broken clear of the keel.  
I could have stuck a screwdriver in and levered it off.   I then toured the 
yard looking for C of a similar vintage, and noticed this problem in 6 of 8. 
  The other 2 had more recent shoal keels installed.  Mine is showing early 
onset.  This is a 5-7k repair.  *. My Single biggest caveat and not well 
understood by surveyors, probably a recent thing.  

Check the holding tank for cracks, and stink.  It may need to be replaced, 
about 600. You can remove the plywood atop the v-berth easily.  If original 
rubber hoses you will want to change.  Not fun

Look under the settee, port side, where the shower drain pump is.   Check the 
base of the bulkhead there for Rot or water damage.

With the boat out of the water, check the flat run of the keel where the keel 
stub begins.   This can be a flex point and may require some repair.   

Bring a power screwdriver and lift the floorboards and look for fractured 
tabbing where the hull and liner are bonded.  Especially forward of the 
maststep.  Not a huge deal but a handy negotiating point.   

Make sure the transmission works properly.  Older transmissions of this type 
have a problem with the bronze cone and its mating surface becoming glazed and 
slipping, in forward, and only when hot.Repair is easy for a shade tree 
mechanic but is often misdiagnosed by professionals and missed by surveyors.

Checks engine mounts.  If they have not been replaced, they will probably be 
tired.  Look at the engine at low idle.  How much is it hopping around?

The ventilation sucks on these boats.   Check for mold/mildew even in a well 
kept boat.

Check the engine insulation.  Probably crumbling and messy.   Hard to replace 
and as noted, engine access is a challenge unless you are built like Gollum.  
Basic service access is fine.

Check the stanchion bases for cracks.  $70CDN ea.

The gel coat cracks at the stern are not an issue.  It's a 30 year old boat.  

The only coring in the hull is in the flat, forward top sides, and the 
through-deck fittings are generally very well done.   If the boat has not been 
neglected, or butchered, chances are the deck will be dry.

It is well worth the cost of a lift to inspect the keel and hull as noted above.

While you are at it, check that the rudder is parallel to the keel.  I have 
seen this in other C, bent, missed by surveyors.  In reverse, the big, 
unsupported rudder  is quite vulnerable.

Look down the top sides, in the area of the chain plates,  (Or equivalent) 
especially if the boat has a hydraulic back stay adjuster.  In several earlier 
C I looked at, the top sides were buckled, as if the bow and stern had been 
raised.  Many were like this, never saw it on a survey.

Ok, that's a ton, but looked very closely at a LOT of boats

All that said I really like the 33-2, though I have 8-footitis already.   I 
think it stands up well, and avoids many of the problems common to older 
generations.   The 33-2 is great if you want a day sailer/weekender that is 
comfortable for two, and sails like a demon.   Rarely do I not outrun other 
boats, and never yet by any thing smaller or the same size.  When I take other 
boat owners out, especially in light air, they are amazed, and I am not a 
particularly skilled sailor.   RACER/cruiser for sure.   Crack the sheets a bit 
in heavy air for the first time and be prepared...  Wow.  Maybe that's the 
"death-trap" part.  Lol

You will want a spinnaker...  Yeee haw! ;-)

I hope that helps, good luck.

Dave.













Sent from my iPad

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Stus-List Looking at a C 33-2.... known issues?

[Bruce via CnC-List]

I'm looking at a mid-80s C 33-2. Overall, boat looks great, but would love to know if there are known issues with these boats that I should pay attention to. I know about the potential for wet core, and will be getting a full survey if I go forward, I'm more wondering about items peculiar to this modelI'd be especially interested, for example, in knowing if there are patterns of things that need attention: things like sealing or rebedding hatches, replacing leaky windows, wobbly stanchion bases, hard-to-get-to thru-hulls, etc.Things that caught my attention in the first inspection:-- I noticed that there isn't great access to the engine - removing the stairs/forward cover provides access to the front, but it looks like it would be tough to get to the sides if needed. It looks like the only way to get to the shaft coupling and packing gland, for example, is through the cockpit lazarette. Has this proven to be an issue, or is it okay?-- it looks like there has been repair to [at least] the gelcoat at the forward end of the fixed plexi windows, both port and starboard. I've read several threads about having to replace leaking windows, is this a common problem? And would it have required gelcoat repair, or is it possible there was some other kind of issue?-- there are some stress cracks in the gelcoat at either end of the teak trim at the top of the transom. Is this normal (eg, just an artifact of a "hard corner" in the mold), or does it indicate something potentially more serious?-- the top of the door to the forward v-berth looks like it has been shaved. In other boats, that can be a sign that the interior structure has "racked". but all the other doors and drawers seem to be fine. Might be nothing, or... not. Anyone ever heard of structural issues in these boats? Is there access to inspect the tabbing where the bulkheads are joined to the hull?-- the various sections of the cabin sole are screwed down. Is this normal, or an owner-add? I'm generally a big fan of being able to easily check the bilge (and inspect the keelbolts) without tools, unless there's a good reason to secure those sections.Thx,bruce

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Re: Stus-List Looking at a C 33-2.... known issues?

[Jim Watts via CnC-List]

It's a deathtrap, run away.

Seriously, all that sounds normal. It was designed as a RACER/cruiser, some
systems are hard to reach.
Maybe the rig has been cranked down for a while. The old adage was to grind
in the backstay until the head door doesn't work, then back it off a turn.
The windows sound normal, there are a million threads on fixing them. Check
the mast step. That is really the only weak spot on those boats. They
tended to decompose over time.

Jim Watts
Paradigm Shift
C 35 Mk III
Victoria, BC

On 18 September 2015 at 17:20, Bruce via CnC-List 
wrote:

> I'm looking at a mid-80s C 33-2. Overall, boat looks great, but would
> love to know if there are known issues with these boats that I should pay
> attention to. I know about the potential for wet core, and will be getting
> a full survey if I go forward, I'm more wondering about items peculiar to
> this model
>
> I'd be especially interested, for example, in knowing if there are
> patterns of things that need attention: things like sealing or rebedding
> hatches, replacing leaky windows, wobbly stanchion bases, hard-to-get-to
> thru-hulls, etc.
>
> Things that caught my attention in the first inspection:
>
> -- I noticed that there isn't great access to the engine - removing the
> stairs/forward cover provides access to the front, but it looks like it
> would be tough to get to the sides if needed. It looks like the only way to
> get to the shaft coupling and packing gland, for example, is through the
> cockpit lazarette. Has this proven to be an issue, or is it okay?
>
> -- it looks like there has been repair to [at least] the gelcoat at the
> forward end of the fixed plexi windows, both port and starboard. I've read
> several threads about having to replace leaking windows, is this a common
> problem? And would it have required gelcoat repair, or is it possible there
> was some other kind of issue?
>
> -- there are some stress cracks in the gelcoat at either end of the teak
> trim at the top of the transom. Is this normal (eg, just an artifact of a
> "hard corner" in the mold), or does it indicate something potentially more
> serious?
>
> -- the top of the door to the forward v-berth looks like it has been
> shaved. In other boats, that can be a sign that the interior structure has
> "racked". but all the other doors and drawers seem to be fine. Might be
> nothing, or... not. Anyone ever heard of structural issues in these boats?
> Is there access to inspect the tabbing where the bulkheads are joined to
> the hull?
>
> -- the various sections of the cabin sole are screwed down. Is this
> normal, or an owner-add? I'm generally a big fan of being able to easily
> check the bilge (and inspect the keelbolts) without tools, unless there's a
> good reason to secure those sections.
>
> Thx,
> bruce
>
> ___
>
> Email address:
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> bottom of page at:
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>
>
>
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