Re: Stus-List Batteries in the cabin. Was Re: Changing weight distribution in Landfall 38

[Frederick G Street via CnC-List]

Bob — I think you missed the boat reference underneath the C:  Irwin 43 
“Waterdancer”.  I imagine that’s where the batteries live…  and the dogs…   :^)


Fred Street -- Minneapolis
S/V Oceanis (1979 C Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI   :^(

> On Nov 20, 2015, at 7:54 AM, Robert Boyer via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> The symptoms are (1) an unexplainable urge to find warm weather, (2) an urge 
> to get off the boat when it snows, and (3) cold feet in the winter.  (Just 
> kidding)
> 
> Life is full of dangers--the biggest one on the highway.
> 
> How did you manage to fit 5 group 27s under your cabin sole in a C 27?  Are 
> you crazy living aboard avC 27 in the winter in Boston?  I can understand 
> the need for 2 dogs--hope they are big ones!
> 
> Bob
> 
> Bob Boyer
> S/V Rainy Days / Annapolis MD
> 1983 C Landfall 38 - Hull #230
> email: dainyr...@icloud.com  
> blog: dainyrays.blogspot.com 
> 
> "There is nothing--absolutely nothing--half so much worth doing as simply 
> messing about in boats."  --Kenneth Grahame
> 
> On Nov 19, 2015, at 11:30 PM, Sailnomad via CnC-List  > wrote:
> 
>> Ok, now I am worried
>> I have 5 group 27 wet cell batteries under my cabin sole. They are not 
>> wented. And I live aboard full time with wife and 2 dogs. Am I living 
>> dangerously ? I never smelled anything. What are the symptoms ?
>> Ahmet
>> C 25 "Tabasco"
>> Irwin 43 "Waterdancer"
>> Boston, MA
>> 

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Re: Stus-List Batteries in the cabin. Was Re: Changing weight distribution in Landfall 38

[Rick Brass via CnC-List]

And since the biggest batteries you could fit into the bilge of a 25 would be D 
cells, I think the Irwin 43 is the correct assumption.

 

Rick Brass

Imzadi  C 38 mk 2

la Belle Aurore C 25 mk1

Washington, NC

 

 

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Frederick G 
Street via CnC-List
Sent: Friday, November 20, 2015 9:47 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Frederick G Street 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Batteries in the cabin. Was Re: Changing weight 
distribution in Landfall 38

 

Bob — I think you missed the boat reference underneath the C:  Irwin 43 
“Waterdancer”.  I imagine that’s where the batteries live…  and the dogs…   :^)


Fred Street -- Minneapolis
S/V Oceanis (1979 C Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI   :^(

 

On Nov 20, 2015, at 7:54 AM, Robert Boyer via CnC-List  > wrote:

 

The symptoms are (1) an unexplainable urge to find warm weather, (2) an urge to 
get off the boat when it snows, and (3) cold feet in the winter.  (Just kidding)

 

Life is full of dangers--the biggest one on the highway.

 

How did you manage to fit 5 group 27s under your cabin sole in a C 27?  Are 
you crazy living aboard avC 27 in the winter in Boston?  I can understand the 
need for 2 dogs--hope they are big ones!

 

Bob

Bob Boyer

S/V Rainy Days / Annapolis MD

1983 C Landfall 38 - Hull #230

email: dainyr...@icloud.com   

blog: dainyrays.blogspot.com  

 

"There is nothing--absolutely nothing--half so much worth doing as simply 
messing about in boats."  --Kenneth Grahame


On Nov 19, 2015, at 11:30 PM, Sailnomad via CnC-List  > wrote:

Ok, now I am worried
I have 5 group 27 wet cell batteries under my cabin sole. They are not wented. 
And I live aboard full time with wife and 2 dogs. Am I living dangerously ? I 
never smelled anything. What are the symptoms ?
Ahmet
C 25 "Tabasco"
Irwin 43 "Waterdancer"
Boston, MA

 

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Re: Stus-List Batteries in the cabin. Was Re: Changing weight distribution in Landfall 38

[Robert Boyer via CnC-List]

The symptoms are (1) an unexplainable urge to find warm weather, (2) an urge to 
get off the boat when it snows, and (3) cold feet in the winter.  (Just kidding)

Life is full of dangers--the biggest one on the highway.

How did you manage to fit 5 group 27s under your cabin sole in a C 27?  Are 
you crazy living aboard avC 27 in the winter in Boston?  I can understand the 
need for 2 dogs--hope they are big ones!

Bob

Bob Boyer
S/V Rainy Days / Annapolis MD
1983 C Landfall 38 - Hull #230
email: dainyr...@icloud.com 
blog: dainyrays.blogspot.com

"There is nothing--absolutely nothing--half so much worth doing as simply 
messing about in boats."  --Kenneth Grahame

> On Nov 19, 2015, at 11:30 PM, Sailnomad via CnC-List  
> wrote:
> 
> Ok, now I am worried
> I have 5 group 27 wet cell batteries under my cabin sole. They are not 
> wented. And I live aboard full time with wife and 2 dogs. Am I living 
> dangerously ? I never smelled anything. What are the symptoms ?
> Ahmet
> C 25 "Tabasco"
> Irwin 43 "Waterdancer"
> Boston, MA
>> On Nov 19, 2015 12:50 PM, "Robert Boyer via CnC-List" 
>>  wrote:
>> I DO use AGMs--so, vapors are not an issue.  I have some space just forward 
>> of the mast under the settee but close to the boat's centerline that might 
>> work for battery storage--I have to check out the dimensions but this would 
>> remove weight aft and add it close to the center of gravity.
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>> Bob Boyer
>> S/V Rainy Days / Annapolis MD
>> 1983 C Landfall 38 - Hull #230
>> email: dainyr...@icloud.com 
>> blog: dainyrays.blogspot.com
>> 
>> "There is nothing--absolutely nothing--half so much worth doing as simply 
>> messing about in boats."  --Kenneth Grahame
>> 
>>> On Nov 19, 2015, at 11:54 AM, Marek Dziedzic via CnC-List 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Bob,
>>>  
>>> as you said, the current from the house batteries should never be high, so 
>>> the wires should not be an issue. However, if you calculate your load at 30 
>>> A and select appropriate gauge of the wire (for distance), make sure that 
>>> you install an appropriate fuse (probably not larger than 50 A) (I would do 
>>> it right on the terminal, but ABYC says, within 6 or 7 in from the 
>>> terminal) to protect that wire. Such fuse would probably allow for one 
>>> quick start of the motor (it would not allow for cranking a cranky motor). 
>>> But if you want to be able to use your house batteries for cranking, you 
>>> have to allow for at least 80 – 100 A in that cable (i.e. appropriate 
>>> gauge). Keep in mind that if you install bigger cable, your voltage loss 
>>> would be less, so you would have more energy available to you lights and 
>>> instruments (instead of heating the cabin).
>>>  
>>> One other thought. I am not sure if putting batteries under the V-berth is 
>>> the best idea. As much as you could, you should avoid placing heavy objects 
>>> far away from the centre of gravity. In heavy weather the heavy bow would 
>>> be your enemy, not a friend.
>>>  
>>> And finally, at least theoretically, you should not install the normal 
>>> lead-acid batteries in the cabin (where they are not vented directly 
>>> outside). If you want to install batteries below, you should use the gel or 
>>> AGM batteries. This, in turn, leads to a more complex charging system 
>>> (especially, if you are going to use AGMs).
>>>  
>>> just a few ideas to consider
>>>  
>>> Marek
>>> 1994 C270, “Legato”
>>> Ottawa, ON
>>>  
>>>  
>>> From: Robert Boyer via CnC-List
>>> Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2015 11:24 AM
>>> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
>>> Cc: Robert Boyer
>>> Subject: Stus-List Changing weight distribution in Landfall 38
>>>  
>>> I am equipping my boat for 8 months per year of cruising in the Bahamas.  I 
>>> have added a 19-gallon auxiliary diesel tank where my holding tank was 
>>> located (under the navigation seat) which adds weight aft.  I currently 
>>> have 4 group 27 batteries which will be eventually upgraded to Group 
>>> 31's--these also are located aft.
>>>  
>>> I have been considering moving 2 or 3 batteries from the aft cockpit locker 
>>> to some dead space under the v-berth.  This would take some weight from the 
>>> aft and add it forward.  (My boat currently sits about 2" high at the bow 
>>> and maybe 1 inch low at the stern with no one aboard but full fuel tanks.)
>>>  
>>> I could configure the batteries such that the new forward bank could be the 
>>> house bank and the starting bank (which I could probably reduce to 1 or 2 
>>> batteries) could remain aft.  My problem is sizing the cables that would 
>>> run from the forward batteries to the aft controls.  As I see it, these 
>>> cables would never carry more than 30 amps (maximum charging from my solar 
>>> panels) unless I needed them for starting (in the event of a dead starting 
>>> battery).
>>>  
>>> Does anyone have any comments or suggestions on this matter?
>>>  
>>> Bob
>>> 
>>> Bob Boyer

Re: Stus-List Batteries in the cabin. Was Re: Changing weight distribution in Landfall 38

[Josh Muckley via CnC-List]

Ahmet,

Symptoms? Kaboom!

During the charging process the same electrical current that is used to
charge the batteries also tears the chemical bonds in the water molecules
apart.  This is know as electrolysis.  The result is hydrogen and oxygen
gas.  All lead acid batteries are subject to this.  This is the reason that
water needs added periodically.  Overcharging and using excessive current
will increase the amount of electrolysis occurring.

My opinion is that the amount of explosive gas being generated is
relatively insignificant and our boats are not air tight enough to allow
gasses to accumulate.  Hydrogen is also different from propane and gasoline
fumes in that hydrogen is lighter than air and will not accumulate in the
low points of the bilge.

Josh Muckley
S/V Sea Hawk
1989 C 37+
Solomons, MD
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Re: Stus-List Batteries in the cabin. Was Re: Changing weight distribution in Landfall 38

[Robert Boyer via CnC-List]

Ah yes, I missed that...Ok, makes more sense!

Sent from my iPhone, Bob Boyer

> On Nov 20, 2015, at 9:46 AM, Frederick G Street via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> Bob — I think you missed the boat reference underneath the C:  Irwin 43 
> “Waterdancer”.  I imagine that’s where the batteries live…  and the dogs…   
> :^)
> 
> 
> Fred Street -- Minneapolis
> S/V Oceanis (1979 C Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI   :^(
> 
>> On Nov 20, 2015, at 7:54 AM, Robert Boyer via CnC-List 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> The symptoms are (1) an unexplainable urge to find warm weather, (2) an urge 
>> to get off the boat when it snows, and (3) cold feet in the winter.  (Just 
>> kidding)
>> 
>> Life is full of dangers--the biggest one on the highway.
>> 
>> How did you manage to fit 5 group 27s under your cabin sole in a C 27?  
>> Are you crazy living aboard avC 27 in the winter in Boston?  I can 
>> understand the need for 2 dogs--hope they are big ones!
>> 
>> Bob
>> 
>> Bob Boyer
>> S/V Rainy Days / Annapolis MD
>> 1983 C Landfall 38 - Hull #230
>> email: dainyr...@icloud.com 
>> blog: dainyrays.blogspot.com
>> 
>> "There is nothing--absolutely nothing--half so much worth doing as simply 
>> messing about in boats."  --Kenneth Grahame
>> 
>>> On Nov 19, 2015, at 11:30 PM, Sailnomad via CnC-List 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Ok, now I am worried
>>> I have 5 group 27 wet cell batteries under my cabin sole. They are not 
>>> wented. And I live aboard full time with wife and 2 dogs. Am I living 
>>> dangerously ? I never smelled anything. What are the symptoms ?
>>> Ahmet
>>> C 25 "Tabasco"
>>> Irwin 43 "Waterdancer"
>>> Boston, MA
>>> 
> 
> ___
> 
> Email address:
> CnC-List@cnc-list.com
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> of page at:
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> 
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Re: Stus-List Batteries in the cabin. Was Re: Changing weight distribution in Landfall 38

[Ahmet via CnC-List]

And the oxygen may actually help :)
I know that if you overcharge a battery, or it is a bad battery, you get a
sulfur smell.
99% of the time I am running on shore power. The battery voltage oscillates
between 12.7 and 14.1
I suspect that most of the charging current goes directly to my consumption
without going into the battery,
which is mostly cabin lights and the fridge. Not sure how much chemical
reaction happens then
I have a 40 amp charger, and on the average I use 10 amps.
It was mostly an economical decision to use lead acid batteries.
Next round I will switch to Gel-Cell batteries
Thanks
Ahmet

On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 4:58 AM, Josh Muckley via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> Ahmet,
>
> Symptoms? Kaboom!
>
> During the charging process the same electrical current that is used to
> charge the batteries also tears the chemical bonds in the water molecules
> apart.  This is know as electrolysis.  The result is hydrogen and oxygen
> gas.  All lead acid batteries are subject to this.  This is the reason that
> water needs added periodically.  Overcharging and using excessive current
> will increase the amount of electrolysis occurring.
>
> My opinion is that the amount of explosive gas being generated is
> relatively insignificant and our boats are not air tight enough to allow
> gasses to accumulate.  Hydrogen is also different from propane and gasoline
> fumes in that hydrogen is lighter than air and will not accumulate in the
> low points of the bilge.
>
> Josh Muckley
> S/V Sea Hawk
> 1989 C 37+
> Solomons, MD
>
> ___
>
> Email address:
> CnC-List@cnc-list.com
> To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the
> bottom of page at:
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>
>
>
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Re: Stus-List Batteries in the cabin. Was Re: Changing weight distribution in Landfall 38

[Ahmet via CnC-List]

Waterdancer, although an amazingly good sailor (for a Irwin Center Cockpit)
has a a wing keel and a great Yanmar Turbo engine, but functions as a
floating apartment.
Hence the C 25.
Since we are both working, my wife would not be happy to have her home not
to be there when she comes back home.

However, we have some over here at Constitution Marina in Boston who are
living in 26 - 30 footers.
Not me. I like my shower, hot water, nice big saloon and queen size bed.
However, in the 3 months I had the C 25, I probably almost  sailed her
more that I did the Irwin 43 in the past 7 years.
I am tempted to do some longer distance cruising with "Tabasco", like
Boston to Cape Cod etc.
Back to the basics. I am actually enjoying "Good Old Boat" magazine again.
Living aboard a 45 footer (and working full time) somewhat removed me from
the pure fun of sailing.

---
Ahmet
*"S/V Waterdancer"* 1990 Irwin 43 CC
"Tabasco" 1973 C 25
Winthrop Yacht Club, Winthrop, MA / USA
---



On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 11:40 AM, Robert Boyer via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> Ah yes, I missed that...Ok, makes more sense!
>
> Sent from my iPhone, Bob Boyer
>
> On Nov 20, 2015, at 9:46 AM, Frederick G Street via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
> Bob — I think you missed the boat reference underneath the C:  Irwin
> 43 “Waterdancer”.  I imagine that’s where the batteries live…  and the
> dogs…   :^)
>
>
> Fred Street -- Minneapolis
> S/V Oceanis (1979 C Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI   :^(
>
> On Nov 20, 2015, at 7:54 AM, Robert Boyer via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
> The symptoms are (1) an unexplainable urge to find warm weather, (2) an
> urge to get off the boat when it snows, and (3) cold feet in the winter.
>  (Just kidding)
>
> Life is full of dangers--the biggest one on the highway.
>
> How did you manage to fit 5 group 27s under your cabin sole in a C 27?
> Are you crazy living aboard avC 27 in the winter in Boston?  I can
> understand the need for 2 dogs--hope they are big ones!
>
> Bob
>
> Bob Boyer
> S/V Rainy Days / Annapolis MD
> 1983 C Landfall 38 - Hull #230
> email: dainyr...@icloud.com 
> blog: dainyrays.blogspot.com
>
> "There is nothing--absolutely nothing--half so much worth doing as simply
> messing about in boats."  --Kenneth Grahame
>
> On Nov 19, 2015, at 11:30 PM, Sailnomad via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
> Ok, now I am worried
> I have 5 group 27 wet cell batteries under my cabin sole. They are not
> wented. And I live aboard full time with wife and 2 dogs. Am I living
> dangerously ? I never smelled anything. What are the symptoms ?
> Ahmet
> C 25 "Tabasco"
> Irwin 43 "Waterdancer"
> Boston, MA
>
>
> ___
>
> Email address:
> CnC-List@cnc-list.com
> To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the
> bottom of page at:
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>
>
> ___
>
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> bottom of page at:
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>
>
>


-- 
---
Ahmet
*"S/V Waterdancer"* 1990 Irwin 43 CC
"Tabasco" 1973 C 25
Winthrop Yacht Club, Winthrop, MA / USA
---
___

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Stus-List Batteries in the cabin. Was Re: Changing weight distribution in Landfall 38

[Sailnomad via CnC-List]

Ok, now I am worried
I have 5 group 27 wet cell batteries under my cabin sole. They are not
wented. And I live aboard full time with wife and 2 dogs. Am I living
dangerously ? I never smelled anything. What are the symptoms ?
Ahmet
C 25 "Tabasco"
Irwin 43 "Waterdancer"
Boston, MA
On Nov 19, 2015 12:50 PM, "Robert Boyer via CnC-List" 
wrote:

> I DO use AGMs--so, vapors are not an issue.  I have some space just
> forward of the mast under the settee but close to the boat's centerline
> that might work for battery storage--I have to check out the dimensions but
> this would remove weight aft and add it close to the center of gravity.
>
> Bob
>
> Bob Boyer
> S/V Rainy Days / Annapolis MD
> 1983 C Landfall 38 - Hull #230
> email: dainyr...@icloud.com 
> blog: dainyrays.blogspot.com
>
> "There is nothing--absolutely nothing--half so much worth doing as simply
> messing about in boats."  --Kenneth Grahame
>
> On Nov 19, 2015, at 11:54 AM, Marek Dziedzic via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
> Bob,
>
> as you said, the current from the house batteries should never be high, so
> the wires should not be an issue. However, if you calculate your load at 30
> A and select appropriate gauge of the wire (for distance), make sure that
> you install an appropriate fuse (probably not larger than 50 A) (I would do
> it right on the terminal, but ABYC says, within 6 or 7 in from the
> terminal) to protect that wire. Such fuse would probably allow for one
> quick start of the motor (it would not allow for cranking a cranky motor).
> But if you want to be able to use your house batteries for cranking, you
> have to allow for at least 80 – 100 A in that cable (i.e. appropriate
> gauge). Keep in mind that if you install bigger cable, your voltage loss
> would be less, so you would have more energy available to you lights and
> instruments (instead of heating the cabin).
>
> One other thought. I am not sure if putting batteries under the V-berth is
> the best idea. As much as you could, you should avoid placing heavy objects
> far away from the centre of gravity. In heavy weather the heavy bow would
> be your enemy, not a friend.
>
> And finally, at least theoretically, you should not install the normal
> lead-acid batteries in the cabin (where they are not vented directly
> outside). If you want to install batteries below, you should use the gel or
> AGM batteries. This, in turn, leads to a more complex charging system
> (especially, if you are going to use AGMs).
>
> just a few ideas to consider
>
> Marek
> 1994 C270, “Legato”
> Ottawa, ON
>
>
> *From:* Robert Boyer via CnC-List 
> *Sent:* Thursday, November 19, 2015 11:24 AM
> *To:* cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> *Cc:* Robert Boyer 
> *Subject:* Stus-List Changing weight distribution in Landfall 38
>
> I am equipping my boat for 8 months per year of cruising in the Bahamas.
> I have added a 19-gallon auxiliary diesel tank where my holding tank was
> located (under the navigation seat) which adds weight aft.  I currently
> have 4 group 27 batteries which will be eventually upgraded to Group
> 31's--these also are located aft.
>
> I have been considering moving 2 or 3 batteries from the aft cockpit
> locker to some dead space under the v-berth.  This would take some weight
> from the aft and add it forward.  (My boat currently sits about 2" high at
> the bow and maybe 1 inch low at the stern with no one aboard but full fuel
> tanks.)
>
> I could configure the batteries such that the new forward bank could be
> the house bank and the starting bank (which I could probably reduce to 1 or
> 2 batteries) could remain aft.  My problem is sizing the cables that would
> run from the forward batteries to the aft controls.  As I see it, these
> cables would never carry more than 30 amps (maximum charging from my solar
> panels) unless I needed them for starting (in the event of a dead starting
> battery).
>
> Does anyone have any comments or suggestions on this matter?
>
> Bob
>
> Bob Boyer
> S/V Rainy Days / Annapolis MD
> 1983 C Landfall 38 - Hull #230
> email: dainyr...@icloud.com 
> blog: dainyrays.blogspot.com
>
> "There is nothing--absolutely nothing--half so much worth doing as simply
> messing about in boats."  --Kenneth Grahame
>
>
>
> ___
>
> Email address:
> CnC-List@cnc-list.com
> To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the
> bottom of page at:
> http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
>
>
> ___
>
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> bottom of page at:
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>
>
>
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