Re: Stus-List Finally Won a Race now reaching strut

[RANDY via CnC-List]

Michael the person who posted about a hand held whisker pole sails on Lake 
Lanier, GA. He described using a hand-held boat hook to pole out his genoa. 
Nobody from the Rocky Mountain region posted about that. 

The RSA for the Rocky Mountain region (SAIL, http://rmsail.org ) follows the 
RRS and doesn't impose any rules of its own, and delegates to the SIs of its 
member clubs. Colorado Sail and Yacht Club's SIs 
(https://csyc.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/2016-CSYC-Spring-Summer-SIs.pdf) 
follow the RRS and don't modify anything to do with equipment (or navigation 
rules, or signal flags, or right of way rules, referring to an earlier post of 
yours). We keep clear of stationary or trolling fishermen with fishing lines 
out as a courtesy. So IMO your disparagement of this region is unfounded. 

In fact I remember one time during the summer of 2013 when High Cotton was RC. 
It was a completely dead-air, glassy-water night at the time of the J/22 start 
sequence. I was on Rick Fox's Merit 25 Gypsy Breeze, in the start sequence 
after the J/22s. We were trying to get out of the way of the J/22 start and had 
to fend off the committee boat, as we were making absolutely no headway and had 
absolutely no steerage. You disqualified us for "hitting the RC boat", which 
was completely inappropriate for several reasons: first, we weren't racing at 
that moment as defined by the RRS; second, if we had been racing the penalty 
for touching a mark (which the RC boat is) is taking a single turn, not a DSQ; 
and third, our boats didn't touch. Not to mention the general friendliness and 
sportsmanship aspects of the whole thing. Perhaps you should brush up on the 
rules and facts before making and communicating judgements. 

BTW you never answered my question in the earlier thread: do you own a C now? 

Regards, 
Randy Stafford 
S/V Grenadine 
C 30-1 #7 
Ken Caryl, CO 

- Original Message -

From: "Michael Cotton via CnC-List" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
To: "cnc-list" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
Cc: "Michael Cotton" <mpc51...@yahoo.com> 
Sent: Monday, August 8, 2016 1:10:22 AM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Finally Won a Race now reaching strut 

This is sailing in the Rocky Mountain region. Their sailing rules are quite 
different from anywhere else I've sailed. I sailed there for a few years. Prior 
to coming to Colorado I sailed under YRALIS (Long Island Sound) and NBYA 
(Narragansett Bay) rules for over 20 years. Not surprised a hand held whisker 
pole is legal under Rocky Mountain sailing. 

Sent from my iPhone 

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Stus-List Finally Won a Race now reaching strut

[Jean-Francois J Rivard via CnC-List]

For us, Whisker poles are not treated the same as the spinnaker pole which 
is true for many other regions. Again, no mention of it in the phrf docs 
and everybody's using whisker poles that are long enough to be effective. 

Truth is: A spin pole's length is woefully inadequate as a whisker pole (I 
have tried it), especially with a 150 % or above genoa. Sorry you guys 
can't use a "real" whisker pole with enough length to fully deploy a 150, 
you're missin' out. 

-Francois
1990 34+ "Take Five"
Lake Lanier, GA 



Message: 3
Date: Mon, 8 Aug 2016 12:44:03 +
From: "Hoyt, Mike" <mike.h...@impgroup.com>
To: "cnc-list@cnc-list.com" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
Subject: Re: Stus-List Finally Won a Race now reaching strut
Message-ID:
 <169e312f80b4c044be2dc1780a7de72f15c...@hfxexc11.impgroup.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

JF - check your PHRF certificate.  It specifies your spinnaker pole 
length.  A whisker pole is in fact treated the same as a spinnaker pole 
and unless your Sis state differently cannot exceed spin pole length 
without penalty.  If a pole longer than that declared is used or one that 
is unmeasurable (boat hook not attached) then you have violated your PHRF 
declaration and are subject to protest and DSQ

Mike
Halifax



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Re: Stus-List Finally Won a Race now reaching strut

[Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List]

JF - check your PHRF certificate.  It specifies your spinnaker pole length.  A 
whisker pole is in fact treated the same as a spinnaker pole and unless your 
Sis state differently cannot exceed spin pole length without penalty.  If a 
pole longer than that declared is used or one that is unmeasurable (boat hook 
not attached) then you have violated your PHRF declaration and are subject to 
protest and DSQ

Mike
Halifax

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of 
Jean-Francois J Rivard via CnC-List
Sent: Friday, August 05, 2016 9:03 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Jean-Francois J Rivard
Subject: Stus-List Finally Won a Race now reaching strut

The boat hook:  We only do it in really light winds 0-4 knots, were talking 
glassy water on the lake.  It's a cinch do undo and it's a cinch to hold.

We do sail under US Sailing rules and there are no stipulation whatsoever about 
the length of the pole, it's attachment to the mast, or position of the crew as 
long as we are inside the lifelines. I'm not trying to argue against local 
rules as I have seen rules for other areas on the web where there were mentions 
of attachment to the mast etc. On the lake, we don't use local interpretation 
of the rules, we go strictly by the US Sailing / ISAF document.

Here's the actual rule from the ISAF 2013- 2016 document:

Rule 50.3 Use of Outriggers

(a) No sail shall be sheeted over or through an outrigger, except as permitted 
in rule 50.3(b) or 50.3(c). An outrigger is any fitting or other device so 
placed that it could exert outward pressure on a sheet or sail at a point from 
which, with the boat upright, a vertical line would fall outside the hull or 
deck. For the purpose of this rule, bulwarks, rails and rubbing strakes are not 
part of the hull or deck and the following are not outriggers: a bowsprit used 
to secure the tack of a sail, a bumkin used to sheet the boom of a sail, or a 
boom of a boomed headsail that requires no adjustment when tacking.

(b) Any sail may be sheeted to or led above a boom that is regularly used for a 
sail and is permanently attached to the mast from which the head of the sail is 
set.

(c) A headsail may be sheeted or attached at its clew to a spinnaker pole or 
whisker pole, provided that a spinnaker is not set.

Important part being part "C" Spinnaker pole or whisker pole but no mention of 
it's description, attachment,  or position of the crew.  I guess someone could 
argue that a boat hook is not a proper whisker pole.  Quite a few of us do it 
on the lake and no one cares. As long a I don't get a protest:  In 0-3 knots I 
don't see any great danger, you can hold it one handed.. It's simply a matter 
of convenience and ease of use. Also it's much quicker / easier to change the 
depth / angle of  a portable pole instead of a heavy thing attached to the 
mast, especially in extremely light winds where any sudden move of the crew can 
upset the sailplan and kill your ever so slight apparent wind.


Just to be clear, here's the actual rule on the crew:

CREW POSITION; LIFELINES 49.1 Competitors shall use no device designed to 
position their bodies outboard, other than hiking straps and stiffeners worn 
under the thighs.

49.2 When lifelines are required by the class rules or the sailing instructions 
they shall be taut, and competitors shall not position any Part 4 OTHER 
REQUIREMENTS WHEN RACING 28 part of their torsos outside them, except briefly 
to perform a necessary task. On boats equipped with upper and lower lifelines, 
a competitor sitting on the deck facing outboard with his waist inside the 
lower lifeline may have the upper part of his body outside the upper lifeline. 
If the class rules do not specify the material or minimum diameter of 
lifelines, they shall comply with the corresponding specifications in the ISAF 
Offshore Special Regulations.

No mention of holding sails or anything else..


As I learned racing my Mustang.. Reading the rules very carefully and knowing 
how to interpret them in a fair is just another item on the long list of what 
makes the difference between the guy out front and the rest..

Here are the rules: 
http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/ISAFRRS20132016Final-[13376].pdf


-Francois Rivard
1990 34+ "Take Five"
Lake Lanier, GA




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Re: Stus-List Finally Won a Race now reaching strut

[Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List]

“Third, holding a sail out by hand may also be illegal under the crew position 
rules. “ This does violate sailing rules in most places since one end must be 
attached to the mast.  It is impossible to measure a pole that is not attached 
to a fixed point.  Some casual venues may let you get away with using this but 
you should not do it in any open regattas.

“First, poles to leeward may be illegal in some venues. “ This used to be the 
case over a decade ago but I believe changed in the RRS approx 2003. Prior to 
that was illegal to have two poles (boom and spin pole) same side of boat but 
seems now to be just fine

Mike
Persistence

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Dennis C. 
via CnC-List
Sent: Friday, August 05, 2016 6:27 PM
To: CnClist
Cc: Dennis C.
Subject: Re: Stus-List Finally Won a Race now reaching strut

Just a couple comments.  First, poles to leeward may be illegal in some venues. 
 Read the SI's (Sailing Instructions).
Second, a reaching strut holds the spinnaker guy outboard to increase the angle 
and take load off the guy and compressive load off the spin pole.
Third, holding a sail out by hand may also be illegal under the crew position 
rules.  In my area if you didn't get protested, you'd certainly hear about it 
at the bar.  You also can't use a boat hook in most races.  The pole must be 
attached to the mast.
Read your rules and sailing instructions carefully on these practices.
Dennis C.
Touche' 35-1 #83
Mandeville, LA

On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 4:18 PM, Jean-Francois J Rivard via CnC-List 
<cnc-list@cnc-list.com<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
Hi David,

Yeah we do it all the time, it's also called a reaching strut. On our boats, 
the whisker pole is overkill and kind of too big / heavy anyway.  Since we only 
do it in very light winds I just get Nicholas to grab the boat hook, push the 
clew out with it, hold it by hand  / prop it on the coach roof.

It does make a significant difference in 0-4 knot wind as your genny has some 
kind of shape as opposed to just hanging half folded up.  Last race (Nicholas 
my teenage son was the skipper) and the wind was so slight I was actually 
holding the clue by hand (We were on a close reach), this way I had finer 
control.. And we walked away from everybody by a good margin at the slightest 
puff.  It may not be the ideal angle / shape but it beats the heck out of 
hanging like a limp flag.. Our competition said: Man! at the slightest wheeze 
of wind you guys left us for dead...

Even better: Get a drifter headsail.. It's basically a genoa made out of .5 - 
1.0 oz spinnaker material.. They start pulling at the slightest puff and are 
relatively cheap. As long as it fits on your foil or is hanked on your forestay 
it counts as a genoa, not a spin. It's on my shopping list for sails hopefully 
sooner than later

Also, the boat does really well broad reaching at 148-160 degrees true angle 
wing on wing with the whisker pole forward towards the forestay kind of like 
reaching with a conventional spinnaker.  This way you're wing on wing but have 
a speed advantage compared to DD by being at very advantageous angle from a 
Polars standpoint.  As long as it does not take you too far of course to get to 
your mark that's a good way to go as well.  Good for very slight winds too.


Good luck,

-Francois Rivard
1990 34+ "Take Five"
Lake Lanier, GA





Message: 3
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 16:43:55 -0400
From: David Knecht <davidakne...@gmail.com<mailto:davidakne...@gmail.com>>
To: CnC CnC discussion list 
<cnc-list@cnc-list.com<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Subject: Re: Stus-List Finally Won a Race
Message-ID: 
<ae5ea07a-fe1d-4e6d-99d9-0cfb8eb94...@gmail.com<mailto:ae5ea07a-fe1d-4e6d-99d9-0cfb8eb94...@gmail.com>>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

We had a very light wind race on Wednesday and the downwind leg was a reach to 
broad reach   I could not get the genoa to sit well and then I noticed one of 
the other boats had the whisker pole to leeward holding the clew out.  I tried 
it and it seemed to help. Is this something others do?  Dave



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what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Finally Won a Race now reaching strut

[Michael Cotton via CnC-List]

This is sailing in the Rocky Mountain region. Their sailing rules are quite 
different from anywhere else I've sailed. I sailed there for a few years. Prior 
to coming to Colorado I sailed under YRALIS (Long Island Sound) and NBYA 
(Narragansett Bay) rules for over 20 years. Not surprised a hand held  whisker 
pole is legal under Rocky Mountain sailing. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 6, 2016, at 2:24 PM, Michael Brown via CnC-List 
> <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
> 
> The US Sailing rules reference the ISAF Equipment Rules of Sailing.
> ERS defines a spinnaker pole in F.1.4 (d) (i) as:
> 
> > A spar attached to the mast spar to set a spinnaker.
> 
> Similarly a whisker pole as:
> 
> > A spar attached to the mast spar and a headsail clew.
> 
> So while the US Sailing rules do not mention the mast attachment
> point it is covered by the ERS definition of a spinnaker ( or whisker ) pole.
> 
> 
> I take the interpretation ( which may differ by region ) that the broad
> meaning of an outrigger is anything projecting past the hull or deck
> used to push out a sheet or sail. That would include hands, feet,
> boat hooks, fishing rods or a pole not attached to the mast.
> 
> Michael Brown
> Windburn
> C 30-1
> 
> 
> Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2016 09:45:29 -0400 
> From: "Gary Nylander" <gnylan...@atlanticbb.net> 
> To: <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Finally Won a Race now reaching strut 
> Message-ID: <004f01d1efe8$cb7cf430$6276dc90$@atlanticbb.net> 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" 
> 
> Our (Chesapeake) PHRF rules do state - must be attached to the mast, must be 
> less than J length without penalty. No hand holding a stick... 
> 
> 
> 
> Gary 
> 
> 
> 
> From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of 
> Jean-Francois J Rivard via CnC-List 
> Sent: Friday, August 5, 2016 8:03 PM 
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
> Cc: Jean-Francois J Rivard <jfriv...@us.ibm.com> 
> Subject: Stus-List Finally Won a Race now reaching strut 
> 
> 
> 
> The boat hook:  We only do it in really light winds 0-4 knots, were talking 
> glassy water on the lake.  It's a cinch do undo and it's a cinch to hold.   
> 
> We do sail under US Sailing rules and there are no stipulation whatsoever 
> about the length of the pole, it's attachment to the mast, or position of 
> the crew as long as we are inside the lifelines. I'm not trying to argue 
> against local rules as I have seen rules for other areas on the web where 
> there were mentions of attachment to the mast etc. On the lake, we don't use 
> local interpretation of the rules, we go strictly by the US Sailing / ISAF 
> document. 
> 
> Here's the actual rule from the ISAF 2013- 2016 document: 
> 
> Rule 50.3 Use of Outriggers 
> 
> (a) No sail shall be sheeted over or through an outrigger, except as 
> permitted in rule 50.3(b) or 50.3(c). An outrigger is any fitting or other 
> device so placed that it could exert outward pressure on a sheet or sail at 
> a point from which, with the boat upright, a vertical line would fall 
> outside the hull or deck. For the purpose of this rule, bulwarks, rails and 
> rubbing strakes are not part of the hull or deck and the following are not 
> outriggers: a bowsprit used to secure the tack of a sail, a bumkin used to 
> sheet the boom of a sail, or a boom of a boomed headsail that requires no 
> adjustment when tacking. 
> 
> (b) Any sail may be sheeted to or led above a boom that is regularly used 
> for a sail and is permanently attached to the mast from which the head of 
> the sail is set. 
> 
> (c) A headsail may be sheeted or attached at its clew to a spinnaker pole or 
> whisker pole, provided that a spinnaker is not set. 
> 
> Important part being part "C" Spinnaker pole or whisker pole but no mention 
> of it's description, attachment,  or position of the crew.  I guess someone 
> could argue that a boat hook is not a proper whisker pole.  Quite a few of 
> us do it on the lake and no one cares. As long a I don't get a protest:  In 
> 0-3 knots I don't see any great danger, you can hold it one handed.. It's 
> simply a matter of convenience and ease of use. Also it's much quicker / 
> easier to change the depth / angle of  a portable pole instead of a heavy 
> thing attached to the mast, especially in extremely light winds where any 
> sudden move of the crew can upset the sailplan and kill your ever so slight 
> apparent wind. 
> 
> 
> Just to be clear, here's the actual rule on the crew: 
> 
> CREW POSITION; LIFELINES 49.1 Competitors shall use no device designed to 
> position their bodies outboard, other than hiking straps and

Re: Stus-List Finally Won a Race now reaching strut

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

The US Sailing rules reference the ISAF Equipment Rules of Sailing.
ERS defines a spinnaker pole in F.1.4 (d) (i) as:

> A spar attached to the mast spar to set a spinnaker.

Similarly a whisker pole as:

> A spar attached to the mast spar and a headsail clew.

So while the US Sailing rules do not mention the mast attachment
point it is covered by the ERS definition of a spinnaker ( or whisker ) pole.


I take the interpretation ( which may differ by region ) that the broad
meaning of an outrigger is anything projecting past the hull or deck
used to push out a sheet or sail. That would include hands, feet,
boat hooks, fishing rods or a pole not attached to the mast.

Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1



Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2016 09:45:29 -0400 
From: "Gary Nylander" <gnylan...@atlanticbb.net> 
To: <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Finally Won a Race now reaching strut 
Message-ID: <004f01d1efe8$cb7cf430$6276dc90$@atlanticbb.net> 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" 
 
Our (Chesapeake) PHRF rules do state - must be attached to the mast, must be 
less than J length without penalty. No hand holding a stick... 
 
  
 
Gary 
 
  
 
From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of 
Jean-Francois J Rivard via CnC-List 
Sent: Friday, August 5, 2016 8:03 PM 
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Cc: Jean-Francois J Rivard <jfriv...@us.ibm.com> 
Subject: Stus-List Finally Won a Race now reaching strut 
 
  
 
The boat hook:  We only do it in really light winds 0-4 knots, were talking 
glassy water on the lake.  It's a cinch do undo and it's a cinch to hold.   
 
We do sail under US Sailing rules and there are no stipulation whatsoever 
about the length of the pole, it's attachment to the mast, or position of 
the crew as long as we are inside the lifelines. I'm not trying to argue 
against local rules as I have seen rules for other areas on the web where 
there were mentions of attachment to the mast etc. On the lake, we don't use 
local interpretation of the rules, we go strictly by the US Sailing / ISAF 
document.  
 
Here's the actual rule from the ISAF 2013- 2016 document:  
 
Rule 50.3 Use of Outriggers  
 
(a) No sail shall be sheeted over or through an outrigger, except as 
permitted in rule 50.3(b) or 50.3(c). An outrigger is any fitting or other 
device so placed that it could exert outward pressure on a sheet or sail at 
a point from which, with the boat upright, a vertical line would fall 
outside the hull or deck. For the purpose of this rule, bulwarks, rails and 
rubbing strakes are not part of the hull or deck and the following are not 
outriggers: a bowsprit used to secure the tack of a sail, a bumkin used to 
sheet the boom of a sail, or a boom of a boomed headsail that requires no 
adjustment when tacking.  
 
(b) Any sail may be sheeted to or led above a boom that is regularly used 
for a sail and is permanently attached to the mast from which the head of 
the sail is set.  
 
(c) A headsail may be sheeted or attached at its clew to a spinnaker pole or 
whisker pole, provided that a spinnaker is not set.  
 
Important part being part "C" Spinnaker pole or whisker pole but no mention 
of it's description, attachment,  or position of the crew.  I guess someone 
could argue that a boat hook is not a proper whisker pole.  Quite a few of 
us do it on the lake and no one cares. As long a I don't get a protest:  In 
0-3 knots I don't see any great danger, you can hold it one handed.. It's 
simply a matter of convenience and ease of use. Also it's much quicker / 
easier to change the depth / angle of  a portable pole instead of a heavy 
thing attached to the mast, especially in extremely light winds where any 
sudden move of the crew can upset the sailplan and kill your ever so slight 
apparent wind.  
 
 
Just to be clear, here's the actual rule on the crew:  
 
CREW POSITION; LIFELINES 49.1 Competitors shall use no device designed to 
position their bodies outboard, other than hiking straps and stiffeners worn 
under the thighs.  
 
49.2 When lifelines are required by the class rules or the sailing 
instructions they shall be taut, and competitors shall not position any Part 
4 OTHER REQUIREMENTS WHEN RACING 28 part of their torsos outside them, 
except briefly to perform a necessary task. On boats equipped with upper and 
lower lifelines, a competitor sitting on the deck facing outboard with his 
waist inside the lower lifeline may have the upper part of his body outside 
the upper lifeline. If the class rules do not specify the material or 
minimum diameter of lifelines, they shall comply with the corresponding 
specifications in the ISAF Offshore Special Regulations.    
 
No mention of holding sails or anything else..  
 
 
As I learned racing my Mustang.. Reading the rules very carefully and 
knowing how to interpret them in a fair is just another item on the long 
list of what makes the difference between th

Re: Stus-List Finally Won a Race now reaching strut

[Gary Nylander via CnC-List]

Our (Chesapeake) PHRF rules do state - must be attached to the mast, must be
less than J length without penalty. No hand holding a stick...

 

Gary

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of
Jean-Francois J Rivard via CnC-List
Sent: Friday, August 5, 2016 8:03 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Jean-Francois J Rivard <jfriv...@us.ibm.com>
Subject: Stus-List Finally Won a Race now reaching strut

 

The boat hook:  We only do it in really light winds 0-4 knots, were talking
glassy water on the lake.  It's a cinch do undo and it's a cinch to hold.  

We do sail under US Sailing rules and there are no stipulation whatsoever
about the length of the pole, it's attachment to the mast, or position of
the crew as long as we are inside the lifelines. I'm not trying to argue
against local rules as I have seen rules for other areas on the web where
there were mentions of attachment to the mast etc. On the lake, we don't use
local interpretation of the rules, we go strictly by the US Sailing / ISAF
document. 

Here's the actual rule from the ISAF 2013- 2016 document: 

Rule 50.3 Use of Outriggers 

(a) No sail shall be sheeted over or through an outrigger, except as
permitted in rule 50.3(b) or 50.3(c). An outrigger is any fitting or other
device so placed that it could exert outward pressure on a sheet or sail at
a point from which, with the boat upright, a vertical line would fall
outside the hull or deck. For the purpose of this rule, bulwarks, rails and
rubbing strakes are not part of the hull or deck and the following are not
outriggers: a bowsprit used to secure the tack of a sail, a bumkin used to
sheet the boom of a sail, or a boom of a boomed headsail that requires no
adjustment when tacking. 

(b) Any sail may be sheeted to or led above a boom that is regularly used
for a sail and is permanently attached to the mast from which the head of
the sail is set. 

(c) A headsail may be sheeted or attached at its clew to a spinnaker pole or
whisker pole, provided that a spinnaker is not set. 

Important part being part "C" Spinnaker pole or whisker pole but no mention
of it's description, attachment,  or position of the crew.  I guess someone
could argue that a boat hook is not a proper whisker pole.  Quite a few of
us do it on the lake and no one cares. As long a I don't get a protest:  In
0-3 knots I don't see any great danger, you can hold it one handed.. It's
simply a matter of convenience and ease of use. Also it's much quicker /
easier to change the depth / angle of  a portable pole instead of a heavy
thing attached to the mast, especially in extremely light winds where any
sudden move of the crew can upset the sailplan and kill your ever so slight
apparent wind. 


Just to be clear, here's the actual rule on the crew: 

CREW POSITION; LIFELINES 49.1 Competitors shall use no device designed to
position their bodies outboard, other than hiking straps and stiffeners worn
under the thighs. 

49.2 When lifelines are required by the class rules or the sailing
instructions they shall be taut, and competitors shall not position any Part
4 OTHER REQUIREMENTS WHEN RACING 28 part of their torsos outside them,
except briefly to perform a necessary task. On boats equipped with upper and
lower lifelines, a competitor sitting on the deck facing outboard with his
waist inside the lower lifeline may have the upper part of his body outside
the upper lifeline. If the class rules do not specify the material or
minimum diameter of lifelines, they shall comply with the corresponding
specifications in the ISAF Offshore Special Regulations.   

No mention of holding sails or anything else.. 


As I learned racing my Mustang.. Reading the rules very carefully and
knowing how to interpret them in a fair is just another item on the long
list of what makes the difference between the guy out front and the rest.. 

Here are the rules:
http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/ISAFRRS20132016Final-[13376].pdf


-Francois Rivard
1990 34+ "Take Five" 
Lake Lanier, GA






___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Finally Won a Race now reaching strut

[Gary Nylander via CnC-List]

We,  often sailing in very light wind, just received a 'windseeker' sail.
Haven't tried it yet, because we had 8-10 on Wednesday (and won). The sail
is attached to the tack, hoisted on its own luff rope, and is high cut - out
of spinnaker cloth. It looks exciting. Our 155% genoa is just too heavy to
use in under 5 knots. I hope it results in the one knot of increased speed
mentioned previously, but it cannot be any worse than our heavy all-purpose
155.

 

Gary

30-1

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of schiller
via CnC-List
Sent: Friday, August 5, 2016 7:50 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: schiller <schil...@bloomingdalecom.net>
Subject: Re: Stus-List Finally Won a Race now reaching strut

 

I fully endorse the Drifter suggestion.  We have (as a part of the twenty
something sails that came with Corsair) a 1/2 oz Drifter that will get us a
knot of boat speed for a knot of breeze.  It has to be on the deck when the
true wind hits 8 knots.  We baby this 1971 built sail and it has proven its
worth numerous times.  I even took it with us on the Queen's Cup race and it
kept us going for a while until we were becalmed and had to retire due to
time constraints.

I still have Spankers, Bloopers and staysails hanging in the barn.

Neil Schiller
1970 Redwing 35, Hull #7
(C 35, Mark I)
White Lake, Michigan

On 8/5/2016 5:18 PM, Jean-Francois J Rivard via CnC-List wrote:

Hi David, 

Yeah we do it all the time, it's also called a reaching strut. On our boats,
the whisker pole is overkill and kind of too big / heavy anyway.  Since we
only do it in very light winds I just get Nicholas to grab the boat hook,
push the clew out with it, hold it by hand  / prop it on the coach roof. 

It does make a significant difference in 0-4 knot wind as your genny has
some kind of shape as opposed to just hanging half folded up.  Last race
(Nicholas my teenage son was the skipper) and the wind was so slight I was
actually holding the clue by hand (We were on a close reach), this way I had
finer control.. And we walked away from everybody by a good margin at the
slightest puff.  It may not be the ideal angle / shape but it beats the heck
out of hanging like a limp flag.. Our competition said: Man! at the
slightest wheeze of wind you guys left us for dead...

Even better: Get a drifter headsail.. It's basically a genoa made out of .5
- 1.0 oz spinnaker material.. They start pulling at the slightest puff and
are relatively cheap. As long as it fits on your foil or is hanked on your
forestay it counts as a genoa, not a spin. It's on my shopping list for
sails hopefully sooner than later

Also, the boat does really well broad reaching at 148-160 degrees true angle
wing on wing with the whisker pole forward towards the forestay kind of like
reaching with a conventional spinnaker.  This way you're wing on wing but
have a speed advantage compared to DD by being at very advantageous angle
from a Polars standpoint.  As long as it does not take you too far of course
to get to your mark that's a good way to go as well.  Good for very slight
winds too.


Good luck,

-Francois Rivard
1990 34+ "Take Five"
Lake Lanier, GA





Message: 3
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 16:43:55 -0400
From: David Knecht  <mailto:davidakne...@gmail.com> <davidakne...@gmail.com>
To: CnC CnC discussion list  <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
<cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
Subject: Re: Stus-List Finally Won a Race
Message-ID:  <mailto:ae5ea07a-fe1d-4e6d-99d9-0cfb8eb94...@gmail.com>
<ae5ea07a-fe1d-4e6d-99d9-0cfb8eb94...@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

We had a very light wind race on Wednesday and the downwind leg was a reach
to broad reach   I could not get the genoa to sit well and then I noticed
one of the other boats had the whisker pole to leeward holding the clew out.
I tried it and it seemed to help. Is this something others do?  Dave







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Re: Stus-List Finally Won a Race now reaching strut

[William Walker via CnC-List]

Francois,
  US SAILING Rule 50.2 clearly requires whisker or spinnaker pole to be 
attached to mast.  I think you will lose the argument at protest that you are 
using a boat hook not a whisker pole and therefore it doesn't have to be 
attached  but maybe not.  
  J length maximum pole restriction is a phrf restriction, not US SAILING, but 
it is a limitation in most phrf regions.  I see Lake Lanier has maximum 
spinnaker pole length of J unless original equipment boat came with is longer 
for that class. Maybe you don't have limitation on whisker pole length or maybe 
it would be interpreted as limitation on all pole lengths. Don't know.  
Bill Walker 
CnC 36
Pentwater, Mi.
 

Sent from AOL Mobile Mail

On Friday, August 5, 2016 Jean-Francois J Rivard via CnC-List 
 wrote:

The boat hook:  We only do it in really light winds 0-4 knots, were talking 
glassy water on the lake.  It's a cinch do undo and it's a cinch to hold.  

We do sail under US Sailing rules and there are no stipulation whatsoever about 
the length of the pole, it's attachment to the mast, or position of the crew as 
long as we are inside the lifelines. I'm not trying to argue against local 
rules as I have seen rules for other areas on the web where there were mentions 
of attachment to the mast etc. On the lake, we don't use local interpretation 
of the rules, we go strictly by the US Sailing / ISAF document. 

Here's the actual rule from the ISAF 2013- 2016 document: 

Rule 50.3 Use of Outriggers 

(a) No sail shall be sheeted over or through an outrigger, except as permitted 
in rule 50.3(b) or 50.3(c). An outrigger is any fitting or other device so 
placed that it could exert outward pressure on a sheet or sail at a point from 
which, with the boat upright, a vertical line would fall outside the hull or 
deck. For the purpose of this rule, bulwarks, rails and rubbing strakes are not 
part of the hull or deck and the following are not outriggers: a bowsprit used 
to secure the tack of a sail, a bumkin used to sheet the boom of a sail, or a 
boom of a boomed headsail that requires no adjustment when tacking. 

(b) Any sail may be sheeted to or led above a boom that is regularly used for a 
sail and is permanently attached to the mast from which the head of the sail is 
set. 

(c) A headsail may be sheeted or attached at its clew to a spinnaker pole or 
whisker pole, provided that a spinnaker is not set. 

Important part being part "C" Spinnaker pole or whisker pole but no mention of 
it's description, attachment,  or position of the crew.  I guess someone could 
argue that a boat hook is not a proper whisker pole.  Quite a few of us do it 
on the lake and no one cares. As long a I don't get a protest:  In 0-3 knots I 
don't see any great danger, you can hold it one handed.. It's simply a matter 
of convenience and ease of use. Also it's much quicker / easier to change the 
depth / angle of  a portable pole instead of a heavy thing attached to the 
mast, especially in extremely light winds where any sudden move of the crew can 
upset the sailplan and kill your ever so slight apparent wind. 


Just to be clear, here's the actual rule on the crew: 

CREW POSITION; LIFELINES 49.1 Competitors shall use no device designed to 
position their bodies outboard, other than hiking straps and stiffeners worn 
under the thighs. 

49.2 When lifelines are required by the class rules or the sailing instructions 
they shall be taut, and competitors shall not position any Part 4 OTHER 
REQUIREMENTS WHEN RACING 28 part of their torsos outside them, except briefly 
to perform a necessary task. On boats equipped with upper and lower lifelines, 
a competitor sitting on the deck facing outboard with his waist inside the 
lower lifeline may have the upper part of his body outside the upper lifeline. 
If the class rules do not specify the material or minimum diameter of 
lifelines, they shall comply with the corresponding specifications in the ISAF 
Offshore Special Regulations.   

No mention of holding sails or anything else.. 


As I learned racing my Mustang.. Reading the rules very carefully and knowing 
how to interpret them in a fair is just another item on the long list of what 
makes the difference between the guy out front and the rest.. 

Here are the rules: 
http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/ISAFRRS20132016Final-[13376].pdf


-Francois Rivard
1990 34+ "Take Five" 
Lake Lanier, GA





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Stus-List Finally Won a Race now reaching strut

[Jean-Francois J Rivard via CnC-List]

The boat hook:  We only do it in really light winds 0-4 knots, were 
talking glassy water on the lake.  It's a cinch do undo and it's a cinch 
to hold. 

We do sail under US Sailing rules and there are no stipulation whatsoever 
about the length of the pole, it's attachment to the mast, or position of 
the crew as long as we are inside the lifelines. I'm not trying to argue 
against local rules as I have seen rules for other areas on the web where 
there were mentions of attachment to the mast etc. On the lake, we don't 
use local interpretation of the rules, we go strictly by the US Sailing / 
ISAF document. 

Here's the actual rule from the ISAF 2013- 2016 document: 

Rule 50.3 Use of Outriggers 

(a) No sail shall be sheeted over or through an outrigger, except as 
permitted in rule 50.3(b) or 50.3(c). An outrigger is any fitting or other 
device so placed that it could exert outward pressure on a sheet or sail 
at a point from which, with the boat upright, a vertical line would fall 
outside the hull or deck. For the purpose of this rule, bulwarks, rails 
and rubbing strakes are not part of the hull or deck and the following are 
not outriggers: a bowsprit used to secure the tack of a sail, a bumkin 
used to sheet the boom of a sail, or a boom of a boomed headsail that 
requires no adjustment when tacking. 

(b) Any sail may be sheeted to or led above a boom that is regularly used 
for a sail and is permanently attached to the mast from which the head of 
the sail is set. 

(c) A headsail may be sheeted or attached at its clew to a spinnaker pole 
or whisker pole, provided that a spinnaker is not set. 

Important part being part "C" Spinnaker pole or whisker pole but no 
mention of it's description, attachment,  or position of the crew.  I 
guess someone could argue that a boat hook is not a proper whisker pole. 
Quite a few of us do it on the lake and no one cares. As long a I don't 
get a protest:  In 0-3 knots I don't see any great danger, you can hold it 
one handed.. It's simply a matter of convenience and ease of use. Also 
it's much quicker / easier to change the depth / angle of  a portable pole 
instead of a heavy thing attached to the mast, especially in extremely 
light winds where any sudden move of the crew can upset the sailplan and 
kill your ever so slight apparent wind. 


Just to be clear, here's the actual rule on the crew: 

CREW POSITION; LIFELINES 49.1 Competitors shall use no device designed to 
position their bodies outboard, other than hiking straps and stiffeners 
worn under the thighs. 

49.2 When lifelines are required by the class rules or the sailing 
instructions they shall be taut, and competitors shall not position any 
Part 4 OTHER REQUIREMENTS WHEN RACING 28 part of their torsos outside 
them, except briefly to perform a necessary task. On boats equipped with 
upper and lower lifelines, a competitor sitting on the deck facing 
outboard with his waist inside the lower lifeline may have the upper part 
of his body outside the upper lifeline. If the class rules do not specify 
the material or minimum diameter of lifelines, they shall comply with the 
corresponding specifications in the ISAF Offshore Special Regulations. 

No mention of holding sails or anything else.. 


As I learned racing my Mustang.. Reading the rules very carefully and 
knowing how to interpret them in a fair is just another item on the long 
list of what makes the difference between the guy out front and the rest.. 


Here are the rules: 
http://www.sailing.org/tools/documents/ISAFRRS20132016Final-[13376].pdf


-Francois Rivard
1990 34+ "Take Five" 
Lake Lanier, GA






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This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
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Re: Stus-List Finally Won a Race now reaching strut

[schiller via CnC-List]

I fully endorse the Drifter suggestion.  We have (as a part of the 
twenty something sails that came with Corsair) a 1/2 oz Drifter that 
will get us a knot of boat speed for a knot of breeze.  It has to be on 
the deck when the true wind hits 8 knots.  We baby this 1971 built sail 
and it has proven its worth numerous times.  I even took it with us on 
the Queen's Cup race and it kept us going for a while until we were 
becalmed and had to retire due to time constraints.


I still have Spankers, Bloopers and staysails hanging in the barn.

Neil Schiller
1970 Redwing 35, Hull #7
(C 35, Mark I)
White Lake, Michigan

On 8/5/2016 5:18 PM, Jean-Francois J Rivard via CnC-List wrote:

Hi David,

Yeah we do it all the time, it's also called a reaching strut. On our 
boats, the whisker pole is overkill and kind of too big / heavy 
anyway.  Since we only do it in very light winds I just get Nicholas 
to grab the boat hook, push the clew out with it, hold it by hand  / 
prop it on the coach roof.


It does make a significant difference in 0-4 knot wind as your genny 
has some kind of shape as opposed to just hanging half folded up. 
 Last race (Nicholas my teenage son was the skipper) and the wind was 
so slight I was actually holding the clue by hand (We were on a close 
reach), this way I had finer control.. And we walked away from 
everybody by a good margin at the slightest puff.  It may not be the 
ideal angle / shape but it beats the heck out of hanging like a limp 
flag.. Our competition said: Man! at the slightest wheeze of wind you 
guys left us for dead...


Even better: Get a drifter headsail.. It's basically a genoa made out 
of .5 - 1.0 oz spinnaker material.. They start pulling at the 
slightest puff and are relatively cheap. As long as it fits on your 
foil or is hanked on your forestay it counts as a genoa, not a spin. 
It's on my shopping list for sails hopefully sooner than later


Also, the boat does really well broad reaching at 148-160 degrees true 
angle wing on wing with the whisker pole forward towards the forestay 
kind of like reaching with a conventional spinnaker.  This way you're 
wing on wing but have a speed advantage compared to DD by being at 
very advantageous angle from a Polars standpoint.  As long as it does 
not take you too far of course to get to your mark that's a good way 
to go as well.  Good for very slight winds too.



Good luck,

-Francois Rivard
1990 34+ "Take Five"
Lake Lanier, GA





Message: 3
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 16:43:55 -0400
From: David Knecht 
To: CnC CnC discussion list 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Finally Won a Race
Message-ID: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

We had a very light wind race on Wednesday and the downwind leg was a 
reach to broad reach   I could not get the genoa to sit well and then 
I noticed one of the other boats had the whisker pole to leeward 
holding the clew out.  I tried it and it seemed to help. Is this 
something others do?  Dave





___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!


___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Finally Won a Race now reaching strut

[William Walker via CnC-List]

If you are sailing under US Sailing rules, 
the pole must be attached to mast, no longer than J measurement, and always 
opposite side from the boom.  You cannot hold any pole by hand.   
Bill Walker
CnC  36
Pentwater, Mi


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Re: Stus-List Finally Won a Race now reaching strut

[Dennis C. via CnC-List]

Just a couple comments.  First, poles to leeward may be illegal in some
venues.  Read the SI's (Sailing Instructions).

Second, a reaching strut holds the spinnaker guy outboard to increase the
angle and take load off the guy and compressive load off the spin pole.

Third, holding a sail out by hand may also be illegal under the crew
position rules.  In my area if you didn't get protested, you'd certainly
hear about it at the bar.  You also can't use a boat hook in most races.
The pole must be attached to the mast.

Read your rules and sailing instructions carefully on these practices.

Dennis C.
Touche' 35-1 #83
Mandeville, LA

On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 4:18 PM, Jean-Francois J Rivard via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> Hi David,
>
> Yeah we do it all the time, it's also called a reaching strut. On our
> boats, the whisker pole is overkill and kind of too big / heavy anyway.
> Since we only do it in very light winds I just get Nicholas to grab the
> boat hook, push the clew out with it, hold it by hand  / prop it on the
> coach roof.
>
> It does make a significant difference in 0-4 knot wind as your genny has
> some kind of shape as opposed to just hanging half folded up.  Last race
> (Nicholas my teenage son was the skipper) and the wind was so slight I was
> actually holding the clue by hand (We were on a close reach), this way I
> had finer control.. And we walked away from everybody by a good margin at
> the slightest puff.  It may not be the ideal angle / shape but it beats the
> heck out of hanging like a limp flag.. Our competition said: Man! at the
> slightest wheeze of wind you guys left us for dead...
>
> Even better: Get a drifter headsail.. It's basically a genoa made out of
> .5 - 1.0 oz spinnaker material.. They start pulling at the slightest puff
> and are relatively cheap. As long as it fits on your foil or is hanked on
> your forestay it counts as a genoa, not a spin. It's on my shopping list
> for sails hopefully sooner than later
>
> Also, the boat does really well broad reaching at 148-160 degrees true
> angle wing on wing with the whisker pole forward towards the forestay kind
> of like reaching with a conventional spinnaker.  This way you're wing on
> wing but have a speed advantage compared to DD by being at very
> advantageous angle from a Polars standpoint.  As long as it does not take
> you too far of course to get to your mark that's a good way to go as well.
> Good for very slight winds too.
>
>
> Good luck,
>
> -Francois Rivard
> 1990 34+ "Take Five"
> Lake Lanier, GA
>
>
>
>
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 16:43:55 -0400
> From: David Knecht 
> To: CnC CnC discussion list 
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Finally Won a Race
> Message-ID: 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> We had a very light wind race on Wednesday and the downwind leg was a
> reach to broad reach   I could not get the genoa to sit well and then I
> noticed one of the other boats had the whisker pole to leeward holding the
> clew out.  I tried it and it seemed to help. Is this something others do?
> Dave
>
>
>
> ___
>
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you
> like what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All
> Contributions are greatly appreciated!
>
>
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Stus-List Finally Won a Race now reaching strut

[Jean-Francois J Rivard via CnC-List]

Hi David, 

Yeah we do it all the time, it's also called a reaching strut. On our 
boats, the whisker pole is overkill and kind of too big / heavy anyway. 
Since we only do it in very light winds I just get Nicholas to grab the 
boat hook, push the clew out with it, hold it by hand  / prop it on the 
coach roof. 

It does make a significant difference in 0-4 knot wind as your genny has 
some kind of shape as opposed to just hanging half folded up.  Last race 
(Nicholas my teenage son was the skipper) and the wind was so slight I was 
actually holding the clue by hand (We were on a close reach), this way I 
had finer control.. And we walked away from everybody by a good margin at 
the slightest puff.  It may not be the ideal angle / shape but it beats 
the heck out of hanging like a limp flag.. Our competition said: Man! at 
the slightest wheeze of wind you guys left us for dead...

Even better: Get a drifter headsail.. It's basically a genoa made out of 
.5 - 1.0 oz spinnaker material.. They start pulling at the slightest puff 
and are relatively cheap. As long as it fits on your foil or is hanked on 
your forestay it counts as a genoa, not a spin. It's on my shopping list 
for sails hopefully sooner than later

Also, the boat does really well broad reaching at 148-160 degrees true 
angle wing on wing with the whisker pole forward towards the forestay kind 
of like reaching with a conventional spinnaker.  This way you're wing on 
wing but have a speed advantage compared to DD by being at very 
advantageous angle from a Polars standpoint.  As long as it does not take 
you too far of course to get to your mark that's a good way to go as well. 
 Good for very slight winds too. 


Good luck,

-Francois Rivard
1990 34+ "Take Five"
Lake Lanier, GA





Message: 3
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 16:43:55 -0400
From: David Knecht 
To: CnC CnC discussion list 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Finally Won a Race
Message-ID: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

We had a very light wind race on Wednesday and the downwind leg was a 
reach to broad reach   I could not get the genoa to sit well and then I 
noticed one of the other boats had the whisker pole to leeward holding the 
clew out.  I tried it and it seemed to help. Is this something others do? 
Dave



___

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what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!