Re: Stus-List LF38 Mast Placement in the Step
I'm not sure that it really matters. That telephone pole mast is still pretty flexible, and once it's set in the collar the rake is entirely controlled by the rig. Wal ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List LF38 Mast Placement in the Step
Lots of choices. If we start with - a non-racing application - fairly stiff mast - no desire for forcing a pre-bend - a small amount of rake - a minimal gap between the mast and partners at the cabin top then 1 - pick a starting point and block the mast heel. 2- on a windy day, say towards the higher end of the TWS you would carry your largest headsail, go upwind and trim for best speed and point. 3 - most people want a bit of weather helm, and there is some guidance that the rudder should be turned 3 or 4 degrees to counteract the weather helm. If you have lee helm add length to the forestay, too much weather helm shorten the forestay. In my opinion the blocks and mast heel position on a typical cruiser or racer cruiser is then used to adjust the mast position at the partners. With the backstay off going downwind the mast should be able to reduce rack and maybe touch the front of the partners. Upwind under full backstay the mast will move back and touch the back of the partners. Doesn't the luff moves forward when you move the foot forward? To answer the question, moving the mast heel forward although it increases the rake it does move the whole sail forward and the center of effort goes forward. Moving the mast heel backwards decreases the rake but moves the whole sail backwards. This is exactly opposite to the effect of adding rake by lengthening the forestay ( or tightening the backstay ), which also increases rake but moves the whole sail backwards. The result is if a boat has too much weather helm and the rake is reduced by moving the mast heel backwards it will likely make the weather helm worse. If a boat has too much weather helm and the rake is reduced by shortening the forestay it will likely reduce the weather helm. So why the likely? It is also possible that with a bendy mast and an older main that moving the mast heel back could induce pre-bend in the mast which will flatten the main, and cause the backstay to flatten it more. That can help weather helm also. Michael Brown Windburn CC 30-1 Launched at National Yacht Club on Saturday! Date: Sun, 3 May 2015 10:35:53 -0700 From: Knowles Rich r...@sailpower.ca To: Josh Muckley muckl...@gmail.com, cnc-list Cnc-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com Subject: Re: Stus-List LF38 Mast Placement in the Step Message-ID: 51c183d8-51a4-44cd-8530-92f0fc3d8...@sailpower.ca Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Hi All. I?ve been having an offline conversation with Josh, see below. Perhaps someone else might like to answer Josh?s questions as I can?t? Rich Knowles Nanaimo, BC INDIGO LF38 Almost sold in Halifax, NS. On May 2, 2015, at 17:41, Josh Muckley muckl...@gmail.com wrote: Doesn't the luff moves forward when you move the foot forward? The original poster was asking about placement of wood blocks. He had all 4 blocks forward of the mast and the mask back all the way aft. I assumed that in moving the blocks to move the mast forward that this would move the foot forward as well. No mention of changing headstay length so I assumed it to be the fixed point in all of this. Based on these assumptions the trailing edge of the mast and the luff edge of the sail would also move forward but the mast as a whole would have more rake. Right? Josh On May 2, 2015 6:53 PM, Rich Knowles r...@sailpower.ca mailto:r...@sailpower.ca wrote: I'm confused. Since the luff is attached to the trailing edge of the mast, if the mast rake increases the luff must move along with it. Perhaps someone else can make more sense if this than I can for you. I'm at work but will post our conversation to the masses when I get home. RK On May 2, 2015, at 15:16, Josh Muckley muckl...@gmail.com mailto:muckl...@gmail.com wrote: What you said was that moving the mast aft moves the center of effort aft. Since the original question was about placement of the mast foot being all the way aft and the consequences of moving it forward I assumed you were referring to the foot. I had originally stated that moving the foot forward would increase rake and then mis-stated that increased rake would reduce weather helm. I was quickly corrected and I conceeded that more rake equals more weather helm. So what is the combined effect of moving the luff edge forward but increasing rake? The two actions have opposite effects correct? Josh On May 2, 2015 2:28 AM, Rich Knowles r...@sailpower.ca mailto:r...@sailpower.ca wrote: Moving the mast aft moves the centre of sail effort aft and increases weather helm. Simple geometry. Rich Knowles Nanaimo, BC INDIGO LF38 Almost sold in Halifax, NS. On Apr 30, 2015, at 11:15, Josh Muckley via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: Moving the base forward should give more aft rake and reduce weather-helm. Josh Muckley S/V Sea Hawk 1989 CC 37+ Solomons, MD
Re: Stus-List LF38 Mast Placement in the Step
Rich, Less rake = less weather helm. If you go far enough, you end up with lee helm, which can be dangerous. I doubt you have enough adjustment to get that far though. Jake Jake Brodersen Midnight Mistress CC 35 Mk-III Hampton VA From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Knowles Rich via CnC-List Sent: Sunday, May 03, 2015 1:36 PM To: Josh Muckley; cnc-list Cnc-List Subject: Re: Stus-List LF38 Mast Placement in the Step Hi All. I've been having an offline conversation with Josh, see below. Perhaps someone else might like to answer Josh's questions as I can't. Rich Knowles Nanaimo, BC INDIGO LF38 Almost sold in Halifax, NS. On May 2, 2015, at 17:41, Josh Muckley muckl...@gmail.com wrote: Doesn't the luff moves forward when you move the foot forward? The original poster was asking about placement of wood blocks. He had all 4 blocks forward of the mast and the mask back all the way aft. I assumed that in moving the blocks to move the mast forward that this would move the foot forward as well. No mention of changing headstay length so I assumed it to be the fixed point in all of this. Based on these assumptions the trailing edge of the mast and the luff edge of the sail would also move forward but the mast as a whole would have more rake. Right? Josh On May 2, 2015 6:53 PM, Rich Knowles r...@sailpower.ca wrote: I'm confused. Since the luff is attached to the trailing edge of the mast, if the mast rake increases the luff must move along with it. Perhaps someone else can make more sense if this than I can for you. I'm at work but will post our conversation to the masses when I get home. RK On May 2, 2015, at 15:16, Josh Muckley muckl...@gmail.com wrote: What you said was that moving the mast aft moves the center of effort aft. Since the original question was about placement of the mast foot being all the way aft and the consequences of moving it forward I assumed you were referring to the foot. I had originally stated that moving the foot forward would increase rake and then mis-stated that increased rake would reduce weather helm. I was quickly corrected and I conceeded that more rake equals more weather helm. So what is the combined effect of moving the luff edge forward but increasing rake? The two actions have opposite effects correct? Josh On May 2, 2015 2:28 AM, Rich Knowles r...@sailpower.ca wrote: Moving the mast aft moves the centre of sail effort aft and increases weather helm. Simple geometry. Rich Knowles Nanaimo, BC INDIGO LF38 Almost sold in Halifax, NS. On Apr 30, 2015, at 11:15, Josh Muckley via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: Moving the base forward should give more aft rake and reduce weather-helm. Josh Muckley S/V Sea Hawk 1989 CC 37+ Solomons, MD On Apr 30, 2015 2:13 PM, N7FN--- via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: Hi, I need to know, from you 38LF owners, where in the mast step your mast is positioned. Right now my mast is all the way aft in the step but I can see that the mast was positioned in the step farther forward at one time. The only reason that it is all the way aft is because that is where the workers in the yard put it. Any ideas about how the boat would sail if the mast was positioned all the way forward as opposed to all the way aft? I have seen adjustments for moving the mast in it's step on some sports boats. Frank Noragon CC 38LF, s/n 001 Rose City Yacht Club Portland, Oregon ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List LF38 Mast Placement in the Step
The wooden wedges in the partners lock the mast into position inside the partners (ditto for Spartite if you have urethane in the partners). Moving the base of the mast forward will tilt the mast and increase rake, moving it aft will decrease rake. But the fore and aft position of the mast at deck level does not change. When Imzadi was rerigged, we set the mast vertical in the middle of the partners and inserted the wedges. Then adjusted shrouds to hold the mast straight and vertical, took most of the slack out of the forestay and backstay, and then removed the sling used to stand the mast in position. Then the base of the mast was moved forward until the desired angle of rake was achieved (10 measured at the gooseneck, IRRC, but I could be wrong) and the stays were then tightened up. Finally the shrouds were adjusted to the desired base tension. Final adjustment of the shrouds was done with the boat beating to weather in about 10 knots of wind. I have about 2 of oak blocks in the mast step aft of the mast, and about 3 or 4 forward. With the base of the mast locked and the partners acting as a fulcrum, adding tension to the backstay bends the masthead back and adds tension to the forestay. The middle of the mast is held in place by the baby stay, so added tension to the backstay causes the bend in the mast to be nearer the top of the mast which tends to flatten the mainsail. What you say would be true, Josh: moving the mast forward would move the luff of the main forward (and BTW reduce J), but only if the mast remained straight and the movement would be limited by the partners to only an inch or two. Once the mast is wedged in the partners, moving the base forward increases rake and moves the luff aft. Rick Brass Imzadi CC 38 mk 2 la Belle Aurore CC 25 mk1 Washington, NC From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Knowles Rich via CnC-List Sent: Sunday, May 03, 2015 1:36 PM To: Josh Muckley; cnc-list Cnc-List Subject: Re: Stus-List LF38 Mast Placement in the Step Hi All. I've been having an offline conversation with Josh, see below. Perhaps someone else might like to answer Josh's questions as I can't. Rich Knowles Nanaimo, BC INDIGO LF38 Almost sold in Halifax, NS. On May 2, 2015, at 17:41, Josh Muckley muckl...@gmail.com mailto:muckl...@gmail.com wrote: Doesn't the luff moves forward when you move the foot forward? The original poster was asking about placement of wood blocks. He had all 4 blocks forward of the mast and the mask back all the way aft. I assumed that in moving the blocks to move the mast forward that this would move the foot forward as well. No mention of changing headstay length so I assumed it to be the fixed point in all of this. Based on these assumptions the trailing edge of the mast and the luff edge of the sail would also move forward but the mast as a whole would have more rake. Right? Josh On May 2, 2015 6:53 PM, Rich Knowles r...@sailpower.ca mailto:r...@sailpower.ca wrote: I'm confused. Since the luff is attached to the trailing edge of the mast, if the mast rake increases the luff must move along with it. Perhaps someone else can make more sense if this than I can for you. I'm at work but will post our conversation to the masses when I get home. RK On May 2, 2015, at 15:16, Josh Muckley muckl...@gmail.com mailto:muckl...@gmail.com wrote: What you said was that moving the mast aft moves the center of effort aft. Since the original question was about placement of the mast foot being all the way aft and the consequences of moving it forward I assumed you were referring to the foot. I had originally stated that moving the foot forward would increase rake and then mis-stated that increased rake would reduce weather helm. I was quickly corrected and I conceeded that more rake equals more weather helm. So what is the combined effect of moving the luff edge forward but increasing rake? The two actions have opposite effects correct? Josh On May 2, 2015 2:28 AM, Rich Knowles r...@sailpower.ca mailto:r...@sailpower.ca wrote: Moving the mast aft moves the centre of sail effort aft and increases weather helm. Simple geometry. Rich Knowles Nanaimo, BC INDIGO LF38 Almost sold in Halifax, NS. On Apr 30, 2015, at 11:15, Josh Muckley via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: Moving the base forward should give more aft rake and reduce weather-helm. Josh Muckley S/V Sea Hawk 1989 CC 37+ Solomons, MD On Apr 30, 2015 2:13 PM, N7FN--- via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: Hi, I need to know, from you 38LF owners, where in the mast step your mast is positioned. Right now my mast is all the way aft in the step but I can see that the mast was positioned in the step farther forward at one time. The only reason that it is all the way aft is because that is where the workers in the yard put it. Any ideas
Stus-List LF38 Mast Placement in the Step
Just looked - Pegathy's mast is in the middle of the step, spacers on both sides. She's got a bit of lee helm in very light air. Goes away quickly as the wind comes up. Seems to me that more rake increases weather helm when the forestay is slacked, backstay tightened, and the mast step doesn't move - the normal way to add rake. Seems to me that if you keep the masthead in the same place and move the step forward, the sail area and center of effort would have to move forward. Euclidean geometry. That should decrease weather helm. 'Course if you move the step forward and the head aft, anything can happen. I usually fall down when that happens. Dan SheerPegathy LF38Rock Creek off the Patapsco ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List LF38 Mast Placement in the Step
From: CnC-List [ mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Knowles Rich via CnC-List Sent: Sunday, May 03, 2015 1:36 PM To: Josh Muckley; cnc-list Cnc-List Subject: Re: Stus-List LF38 Mast Placement in the Step Hi All. Ive been having an offline conversation with Josh, see below. Perhaps someone else might like to answer Joshs questions as I cant Rich Knowles Nanaimo, BC INDIGO LF38 Almost sold in Halifax, NS. On May 2, 2015, at 17:41, Josh Muckley muckl...@gmail.com mailto:muckl...@gmail.com wrote: Doesn't the luff moves forward when you move the foot forward? The original poster was asking about placement of wood blocks. He had all 4 blocks forward of the mast and the mask back all the way aft. I assumed that in moving the blocks to move the mast forward that this would move the foot forward as well. No mention of changing headstay length so I assumed it to be the fixed point in all of this. Based on these assumptions the trailing edge of the mast and the luff edge of the sail would also move forward but the mast as a whole would have more rake. Right? Josh On May 2, 2015 6:53 PM, Rich Knowles r...@sailpower.ca mailto:r...@sailpower.ca wrote: I'm confused. Since the luff is attached to the trailing edge of the mast, if the mast rake increases the luff must move along with it. Perhaps someone else can make more sense if this than I can for you. I'm at work but will post our conversation to the masses when I get home. RK On May 2, 2015, at 15:16, Josh Muckley muckl...@gmail.com mailto:muckl...@gmail.com wrote: What you said was that moving the mast aft moves the center of effort aft. Since the original question was about placement of the mast foot being all the way aft and the consequences of moving it forward I assumed you were referring to the foot. I had originally stated that moving the foot forward would increase rake and then mis-stated that increased rake would reduce weather helm. I was quickly corrected and I conceeded that more rake equals more weather helm. So what is the combined effect of moving the luff edge forward but increasing rake? The two actions have opposite effects correct? Josh On May 2, 2015 2:28 AM, Rich Knowles r...@sailpower.ca mailto:r...@sailpower.ca wrote: Moving the mast aft moves the centre of sail effort aft and increases weather helm. Simple geometry. Rich Knowles Nanaimo, BC INDIGO LF38 Almost sold in Halifax, NS. On Apr 30, 2015, at 11:15, Josh Muckley via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: Moving the base forward should give more aft rake and reduce weather-helm. Josh Muckley S/V Sea Hawk 1989 CC 37+ Solomons, MD On Apr 30, 2015 2:13 PM, N7FN--- via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: Hi, I need to know, from you 38LF owners, where in the mast step your mast is positioned. Right now my mast is all the way aft in the step but I can see that the mast was positioned in the step farther forward at one time. The only reason that it is all the way aft is because that is where the workers in the yard put it. Any ideas about how the boat would sail if the mast was positioned all the way forward as opposed to all the way aft? I have seen adjustments for moving the mast in it's step on some sports boats. Frank Noragon CC 38LF, s/n 001 Rose City Yacht Club Portland, Oregon ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com mailto:CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com mailto:CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com mailto:CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com___ Email address: CnC-List
Re: Stus-List LF38 Mast Placement in the Step
Right, we have all agreed (conceeded in my case) that more rake usually equals more weather helm. However, while discussing rake we are only taking into consideration the movement of the mast head. The act of moving the head back actually does two things. One, it tilts or rotates the sail on approximately on it's tack. Two, it pulls the entire sail aft since the mast is moving aft. Which action is changing the weather helm or are they both responsible? The original question by Mr. Frank Noragon was, What would happen if he moved the blocks at the mast step so as the move the foot forward? I answered that it would increase the rake and then incorrectly stated that increased rake would decrease weather helm. Fellow listers quickly corrected my error...repeatedly. After being corrected for the third or forth time I decided to reeducate myself. During this review it occured to me that all I was previously considering was the rake. Rich's comments made me consider the placement of the sail in relation to the boat. As such I possed the question to Rich that moving the foot forward does increase rake but actually moves the bulk of the sail forward. What is the net effect? There it is, fire at will. Josh Rich, Less rake = less weather helm. If you go far enough, you end up with lee helm, which can be dangerous. I doubt you have enough adjustment to get that far though. Jake *Jake Brodersen* *Midnight Mistress* *CC 35 Mk-III* *Hampton VA* *From:* CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] *On Behalf Of *Knowles Rich via CnC-List *Sent:* Sunday, May 03, 2015 1:36 PM *To:* Josh Muckley; cnc-list Cnc-List *Subject:* Re: Stus-List LF38 Mast Placement in the Step Hi All. I've been having an offline conversation with Josh, see below. Perhaps someone else might like to answer Josh's questions as I can't... Rich Knowles Nanaimo, BC INDIGO LF38 Almost sold in Halifax, NS. On May 2, 2015, at 17:41, Josh Muckley muckl...@gmail.com wrote: Doesn't the luff moves forward when you move the foot forward? The original poster was asking about placement of wood blocks. He had all 4 blocks forward of the mast and the mask back all the way aft. I assumed that in moving the blocks to move the mast forward that this would move the foot forward as well. No mention of changing headstay length so I assumed it to be the fixed point in all of this. Based on these assumptions the trailing edge of the mast and the luff edge of the sail would also move forward but the mast as a whole would have more rake. Right? Josh On May 2, 2015 6:53 PM, Rich Knowles r...@sailpower.ca wrote: I'm confused. Since the luff is attached to the trailing edge of the mast, if the mast rake increases the luff must move along with it. Perhaps someone else can make more sense if this than I can for you. I'm at work but will post our conversation to the masses when I get home. RK On May 2, 2015, at 15:16, Josh Muckley muckl...@gmail.com wrote: What you said was that moving the mast aft moves the center of effort aft. Since the original question was about placement of the mast foot being all the way aft and the consequences of moving it forward I assumed you were referring to the foot. I had originally stated that moving the foot forward would increase rake and then mis-stated that increased rake would reduce weather helm. I was quickly corrected and I conceeded that more rake equals more weather helm. So what is the combined effect of moving the luff edge forward but increasing rake? The two actions have opposite effects correct? Josh On May 2, 2015 2:28 AM, Rich Knowles r...@sailpower.ca wrote: Moving the mast aft moves the centre of sail effort aft and increases weather helm. Simple geometry. Rich Knowles Nanaimo, BC INDIGO LF38 Almost sold in Halifax, NS. On Apr 30, 2015, at 11:15, Josh Muckley via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: Moving the base forward should give more aft rake and reduce weather-helm. Josh Muckley S/V Sea Hawk 1989 CC 37+ Solomons, MD On Apr 30, 2015 2:13 PM, N7FN--- via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: Hi, I need to know, from you 38LF owners, where in the mast step your mast is positioned. Right now my mast is all the way aft in the step but I can see that the mast was positioned in the step farther forward at one time. The only reason that it is all the way aft is because that is where the workers in the yard put it. Any ideas about how the boat would sail if the mast was positioned all the way forward as opposed to all the way aft? I have seen adjustments for moving the mast in it's step on some sports boats. Frank Noragon CC 38LF, s/n 001 Rose City Yacht Club Portland, Oregon ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List LF38 Mast Placement in the Step
Josh, we've come to really appreciate your comments, especially of late, it seems you've taken it upon yourself to step up when many times questions aren't being answered. One of those mysteries of the internet, sometimes replies don't always come thru in a timely manner. I have been fighting weather helm in the winds of the gorge since getting my 29, so have tried to adjust accordingly. Don't take it as anyone beating up on ya! This is a great group of knowledgeable folks. With that said, and I'm no expert, but one must look at the total package, both jib and main, and the sum total of effort moves aft. Look at any good sail plan drawing. And now off to do my part on national scurvy day another rum, please, yes w/ lime! I know, that was yesterday, but one must help when one can! Cheers! randy Tamanawas 29-II Hood River, OR From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Josh Muckley via CnC-List Sent: Sunday, May 03, 2015 6:00 PM To: CC List; captain_jake@cox net Subject: Re: Stus-List LF38 Mast Placement in the Step Right, we have all agreed (conceeded in my case) that more rake usually equals more weather helm. However, while discussing rake we are only taking into consideration the movement of the mast head. The act of moving the head back actually does two things. One, it tilts or rotates the sail on approximately on it's tack. Two, it pulls the entire sail aft since the mast is moving aft. Which action is changing the weather helm or are they both responsible? The original question by Mr. Frank Noragon was, What would happen if he moved the blocks at the mast step so as the move the foot forward? I answered that it would increase the rake and then incorrectly stated that increased rake would decrease weather helm. Fellow listers quickly corrected my error...repeatedly. After being corrected for the third or forth time I decided to reeducate myself. During this review it occured to me that all I was previously considering was the rake. Rich's comments made me consider the placement of the sail in relation to the boat. As such I possed the question to Rich that moving the foot forward does increase rake but actually moves the bulk of the sail forward. What is the net effect? There it is, fire at will. Josh Rich, Less rake = less weather helm. If you go far enough, you end up with lee helm, which can be dangerous. I doubt you have enough adjustment to get that far though. Jake Jake Brodersen Midnight Mistress CC 35 Mk-III Hampton VA From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com ] On Behalf Of Knowles Rich via CnC-List Sent: Sunday, May 03, 2015 1:36 PM To: Josh Muckley; cnc-list Cnc-List Subject: Re: Stus-List LF38 Mast Placement in the Step Hi All. I've been having an offline conversation with Josh, see below. Perhaps someone else might like to answer Josh's questions as I can't. Rich Knowles Nanaimo, BC INDIGO LF38 Almost sold in Halifax, NS. On May 2, 2015, at 17:41, Josh Muckley muckl...@gmail.com mailto:muckl...@gmail.com wrote: Doesn't the luff moves forward when you move the foot forward? The original poster was asking about placement of wood blocks. He had all 4 blocks forward of the mast and the mask back all the way aft. I assumed that in moving the blocks to move the mast forward that this would move the foot forward as well. No mention of changing headstay length so I assumed it to be the fixed point in all of this. Based on these assumptions the trailing edge of the mast and the luff edge of the sail would also move forward but the mast as a whole would have more rake. Right? Josh On May 2, 2015 6:53 PM, Rich Knowles r...@sailpower.ca mailto:r...@sailpower.ca wrote: I'm confused. Since the luff is attached to the trailing edge of the mast, if the mast rake increases the luff must move along with it. Perhaps someone else can make more sense if this than I can for you. I'm at work but will post our conversation to the masses when I get home. RK On May 2, 2015, at 15:16, Josh Muckley muckl...@gmail.com mailto:muckl...@gmail.com wrote: What you said was that moving the mast aft moves the center of effort aft. Since the original question was about placement of the mast foot being all the way aft and the consequences of moving it forward I assumed you were referring to the foot. I had originally stated that moving the foot forward would increase rake and then mis-stated that increased rake would reduce weather helm. I was quickly corrected and I conceeded that more rake equals more weather helm. So what is the combined effect of moving the luff edge forward but increasing rake? The two actions have opposite effects correct? Josh On May 2, 2015 2:28 AM, Rich Knowles r...@sailpower.ca mailto:r...@sailpower.ca wrote: Moving the mast aft moves the centre of sail effort aft and increases weather helm
Re: Stus-List LF38 Mast Placement in the Step
Hi Josh, This reply is really for Mr. Noragon. You and everybody else agree on the concept that Sail CE vs. Yacht CLR is going to influence weather helm. Any objection to moving the discussion on ways to arrive and influence that relationship to a new thread? (it might become huge :) In the interest of stepping a mast on a Landfill 38* I recommend the following simple steps: mast placement, shroud static tune, shroud dynamic tune. Mast placement: Since we don't have history, I would start with the mast centred in step and adjust forestay length* to arrive at desired rake. If you come against the aft partners (deck elevation) then bang the mast base forward (similar if aft adjustment is necessary). Static Shroud Tune:* Centre mast athwartship using this technique, second paragraph At The Dock http://www.cncphotoalbum.com/doityourself/masttuning/tuning.htm Next, I tighten the lower shrouds alternately and bang on 'em occasionally until the low thud becomes a low bing. I keep the tighten sequence until they all have the same nice bing. (low G for my wire, if I remember correctly) Similiar for the upper shrouds. (but a higher note when finished) Block the mast at the partners and have a beer. You have just tuned a rig, by ear. Dynamic Shroud Tune. The sailing adjustments finish rig tuning and are as important as above. I usually do a couple of dynamic tunes simply because of weather opportunities aren't always there the first sail out. For this I do a small leeward adjustment, tack, adjust leeward, tack, etc. instead of luffing as recommended by the above link. * - if you are racing and need repeatable pre-race rig settings then a Loos gauge is a handy kit for Static Shroud Tune. - not once was forestay tension mentioned :) - the other thing I couldn't resist was the landfill comment. this is an unkind and unwarranted remark oft made in the racing community, jealous, I think, they don't appreciate comfort. I would love to upgrade to a Landfall 38 and cruise the Caribbean for bit. Oops, gotta go. Looks like a call from Rich, inviting me over for a beer (in case the sale falls through). Hah ha. Cheers, Russ Sweet 35 mk-1 Nanaimo At 05:59 PM 03/05/2015, you wrote: Right, we have all agreed (conceeded in my case) that more rake usually equals more weather helm. However, while discussing rake we are only taking into consideration the movement of the mast head. The act of moving the head back actually does two things. One, it tilts or rotates the sail on approximately on it's tack. Two, it pulls the entire sail aft since the mast is moving aft. Which action is changing the weather helm or are they both responsible? The original question by Mr. Frank Noragon was, What would happen if he moved the blocks at the mast step so as the move the foot forward? I answered that it would increase the rake and then incorrectly stated that increased rake would decrease weather helm. Fellow listers quickly corrected my error...repeatedly. After being corrected for the third or forth time I decided to reeducate myself. During this review it occured to me that all I was previously considering was the rake. Rich's comments made me consider the placement of the sail in relation to the boat. As such I possed the question to Rich that moving the foot forward does increase rake but actually moves the bulk of the sail forward. What is the net effect? There it is, fire at will. Josh Rich, Less rake = less weather helm. If you go far enough, you end up with lee helm, which can be dangerous. I doubt you have enough adjustment to get that far though. Jake Jake Brodersen Midnight Mistress CC 35 Mk-III Hampton VA From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Knowles Rich via CnC-List Sent: Sunday, May 03, 2015 1:36 PM To: Josh Muckley; cnc-list Cnc-List Subject: Re: Stus-List LF38 Mast Placement in the Step Hi All. Ive been having an offline conversation with Josh, see below. Perhaps someone else might like to answer Joshs questions as I cant Rich Knowles Nanaimo, BC INDIGO LF38 Almost sold in Halifax, NS. On May 2, 2015, at 17:41, Josh Muckley mailto:muckl...@gmail.commuckl...@gmail.com wrote: Doesn't the luff moves forward when you move the foot forward? The original poster was asking about placement of wood blocks. He had all 4 blocks forward of the mast and the mask back all the way aft. I assumed that in moving the blocks to move the mast forward that this would move the foot forward as well. No mention of changing headstay length so I assumed it to be the fixed point in all of this. Based on these assumptions the trailing edge of the mast and the luff edge of the sail would also move forward but the mast as a whole would have more rake. Right? Josh On May 2, 2015 6:53 PM, Rich Knowles mailto:r...@sailpower.car...@sailpower.ca
Re: Stus-List LF38 Mast Placement in the Step
Hi All. I’ve been having an offline conversation with Josh, see below. Perhaps someone else might like to answer Josh’s questions as I can’t… Rich Knowles Nanaimo, BC INDIGO LF38 Almost sold in Halifax, NS. On May 2, 2015, at 17:41, Josh Muckley muckl...@gmail.com wrote: Doesn't the luff moves forward when you move the foot forward? The original poster was asking about placement of wood blocks. He had all 4 blocks forward of the mast and the mask back all the way aft. I assumed that in moving the blocks to move the mast forward that this would move the foot forward as well. No mention of changing headstay length so I assumed it to be the fixed point in all of this. Based on these assumptions the trailing edge of the mast and the luff edge of the sail would also move forward but the mast as a whole would have more rake. Right? Josh On May 2, 2015 6:53 PM, Rich Knowles r...@sailpower.ca mailto:r...@sailpower.ca wrote: I'm confused. Since the luff is attached to the trailing edge of the mast, if the mast rake increases the luff must move along with it. Perhaps someone else can make more sense if this than I can for you. I'm at work but will post our conversation to the masses when I get home. RK On May 2, 2015, at 15:16, Josh Muckley muckl...@gmail.com mailto:muckl...@gmail.com wrote: What you said was that moving the mast aft moves the center of effort aft. Since the original question was about placement of the mast foot being all the way aft and the consequences of moving it forward I assumed you were referring to the foot. I had originally stated that moving the foot forward would increase rake and then mis-stated that increased rake would reduce weather helm. I was quickly corrected and I conceeded that more rake equals more weather helm. So what is the combined effect of moving the luff edge forward but increasing rake? The two actions have opposite effects correct? Josh On May 2, 2015 2:28 AM, Rich Knowles r...@sailpower.ca mailto:r...@sailpower.ca wrote: Moving the mast aft moves the centre of sail effort aft and increases weather helm. Simple geometry. Rich Knowles Nanaimo, BC INDIGO LF38 Almost sold in Halifax, NS. On Apr 30, 2015, at 11:15, Josh Muckley via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: Moving the base forward should give more aft rake and reduce weather-helm. Josh Muckley S/V Sea Hawk 1989 CC 37+ Solomons, MD On Apr 30, 2015 2:13 PM, N7FN--- via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: Hi, I need to know, from you 38LF owners, where in the mast step your mast is positioned. Right now my mast is all the way aft in the step but I can see that the mast was positioned in the step farther forward at one time. The only reason that it is all the way aft is because that is where the workers in the yard put it. Any ideas about how the boat would sail if the mast was positioned all the way forward as opposed to all the way aft? I have seen adjustments for moving the mast in it's step on some sports boats. Frank Noragon CC 38LF, s/n 001 Rose City Yacht Club Portland, Oregon ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com mailto:CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com mailto:CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Stus-List LF38 Mast Placement in the Step
Hi, I need to know, from you 38LF owners, where in the mast step your mast is positioned. Right now my mast is all the way aft in the step but I can see that the mast was positioned in the step farther forward at one time. The only reason that it is all the way aft is because that is where the workers in the yard put it. Any ideas about how the boat would sail if the mast was positioned all the way forward as opposed to all the way aft? I have seen adjustments for moving the mast in it's step on some sports boats. Frank Noragon CC 38LF, s/n 001 Rose City Yacht Club Portland, Oregon ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List LF38 Mast Placement in the Step
Moving the base forward should give more aft rake and reduce weather-helm. Josh Muckley S/V Sea Hawk 1989 CC 37+ Solomons, MD On Apr 30, 2015 2:13 PM, N7FN--- via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: Hi, I need to know, from you 38LF owners, where in the mast step your mast is positioned. Right now my mast is all the way aft in the step but I can see that the mast was positioned in the step farther forward at one time. The only reason that it is all the way aft is because that is where the workers in the yard put it. Any ideas about how the boat would sail if the mast was positioned all the way forward as opposed to all the way aft? I have seen adjustments for moving the mast in it's step on some sports boats. Frank Noragon CC 38LF, s/n 001 Rose City Yacht Club Portland, Oregon ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List LF38 Mast Placement in the Step
Hi, Frank — mine is all the way aft, as well. Fred Street -- Minneapolis S/V Oceanis (1979 CC Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI :^( On Apr 30, 2015, at 1:13 PM, N7FN--- via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: Hi, I need to know, from you 38LF owners, where in the mast step your mast is positioned. Right now my mast is all the way aft in the step but I can see that the mast was positioned in the step farther forward at one time. The only reason that it is all the way aft is because that is where the workers in the yard put it. Any ideas about how the boat would sail if the mast was positioned all the way forward as opposed to all the way aft? I have seen adjustments for moving the mast in it's step on some sports boats. Frank Noragon CC 38LF, s/n 001 Rose City Yacht Club Portland, Oregon ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List LF38 Mast Placement in the Step
Yep, I was bass ackwards...already been told On Apr 30, 2015 3:26 PM, randy via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: Hey Josh, with all due respect, but moving the butt forward on a keel stepped rig will pivot about the partners, and should move the sail area, and therefore the center of effort aft, which I believe will increase weather helm. randy Tamanawas 29-II Hood River, OR *From:* CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] *On Behalf Of *Josh Muckley via CnC-List *Sent:* Thursday, April 30, 2015 11:16 AM *To:* CC List; n...@comcast.net *Subject:* Re: Stus-List LF38 Mast Placement in the Step Moving the base forward should give more aft rake and reduce weather-helm. Josh Muckley S/V Sea Hawk 1989 CC 37+ Solomons, MD On Apr 30, 2015 2:13 PM, N7FN--- via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: Hi, I need to know, from you 38LF owners, where in the mast step your mast is positioned. Right now my mast is all the way aft in the step but I can see that the mast was positioned in the step farther forward at one time. The only reason that it is all the way aft is because that is where the workers in the yard put it. Any ideas about how the boat would sail if the mast was positioned all the way forward as opposed to all the way aft? I have seen adjustments for moving the mast in it's step on some sports boats. Frank Noragon CC 38LF, s/n 001 Rose City Yacht Club Portland, Oregon ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List LF38 Mast Placement in the Step
Hey Josh, with all due respect, but moving the butt forward on a keel stepped rig will pivot about the partners, and should move the sail area, and therefore the center of effort aft, which I believe will increase weather helm. randy Tamanawas 29-II Hood River, OR From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Josh Muckley via CnC-List Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2015 11:16 AM To: CC List; n...@comcast.net Subject: Re: Stus-List LF38 Mast Placement in the Step Moving the base forward should give more aft rake and reduce weather-helm. Josh Muckley S/V Sea Hawk 1989 CC 37+ Solomons, MD On Apr 30, 2015 2:13 PM, N7FN--- via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: Hi, I need to know, from you 38LF owners, where in the mast step your mast is positioned. Right now my mast is all the way aft in the step but I can see that the mast was positioned in the step farther forward at one time. The only reason that it is all the way aft is because that is where the workers in the yard put it. Any ideas about how the boat would sail if the mast was positioned all the way forward as opposed to all the way aft? I have seen adjustments for moving the mast in it's step on some sports boats. Frank Noragon CC 38LF, s/n 001 Rose City Yacht Club Portland, Oregon ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com mailto:CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List LF38 Mast Placement in the Step
I have 4 spacer blocks that position the mast in the step. So I take it that most folks have all the spacers forward of the mast? I didn't recall how the PO had it so have split it 2 and 2 for years. Ed 1982 Landfall 38 Prime Interest Toronto On Apr 30, 2015 2:40 PM, Joel Aronson via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: More rake increases weather helm by moving the center of effort aft. Joel On Thu, Apr 30, 2015 at 2:15 PM, Josh Muckley via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: Moving the base forward should give more aft rake and reduce weather-helm. Josh Muckley S/V Sea Hawk 1989 CC 37+ Solomons, MD On Apr 30, 2015 2:13 PM, N7FN--- via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: Hi, I need to know, from you 38LF owners, where in the mast step your mast is positioned. Right now my mast is all the way aft in the step but I can see that the mast was positioned in the step farther forward at one time. The only reason that it is all the way aft is because that is where the workers in the yard put it. Any ideas about how the boat would sail if the mast was positioned all the way forward as opposed to all the way aft? I have seen adjustments for moving the mast in it's step on some sports boats. Frank Noragon CC 38LF, s/n 001 Rose City Yacht Club Portland, Oregon ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com -- Joel 301 541 8551 ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List LF38 Mast Placement in the Step
Ed — all four of my spacer blocks are forward of the mast heel. Fred Street -- Minneapolis S/V Oceanis (1979 CC Landfall 38) -- on the hard in Bayfield, WI :^( On Apr 30, 2015, at 2:26 PM, ed vanderkruk via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: I have 4 spacer blocks that position the mast in the step. So I take it that most folks have all the spacers forward of the mast? I didn't recall how the PO had it so have split it 2 and 2 for years. Ed 1982 Landfall 38 Prime Interest Toronto ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List LF38 Mast Placement in the Step
My spacers are all aft of the mast. Bob Boyer S/V Rainy Days / Annapolis MD 1983 CC Landfall 38 - Hull #230 email: dainyr...@icloud.com blog: dainyrays.blogspot.com There is nothing--absolutely nothing--half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats. --Kenneth Grahame On Apr 30, 2015, at 3:26 PM, ed vanderkruk via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: I have 4 spacer blocks that position the mast in the step. So I take it that most folks have all the spacers forward of the mast? I didn't recall how the PO had it so have split it 2 and 2 for years. Ed 1982 Landfall 38 Prime Interest Toronto On Apr 30, 2015 2:40 PM, Joel Aronson via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: More rake increases weather helm by moving the center of effort aft. Joel On Thu, Apr 30, 2015 at 2:15 PM, Josh Muckley via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: Moving the base forward should give more aft rake and reduce weather-helm. Josh Muckley S/V Sea Hawk 1989 CC 37+ Solomons, MD On Apr 30, 2015 2:13 PM, N7FN--- via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote: Hi, I need to know, from you 38LF owners, where in the mast step your mast is positioned. Right now my mast is all the way aft in the step but I can see that the mast was positioned in the step farther forward at one time. The only reason that it is all the way aft is because that is where the workers in the yard put it. Any ideas about how the boat would sail if the mast was positioned all the way forward as opposed to all the way aft? I have seen adjustments for moving the mast in it's step on some sports boats. Frank Noragon CC 38LF, s/n 001 Rose City Yacht Club Portland, Oregon ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com -- Joel 301 541 8551 ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com ___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
Re: Stus-List LF38 Mast Placement in the Step
I think Pegasus`s mast is all the way aft. Doug MountjoysvPegasusLF38 hull #4just west of Ballard, WA. -- Original message--From: N7FN--- via CnC-List Date: Thu, Apr 30, 2015 11:13To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com;Subject:Stus-List LF38 Mast Placement in the StepHi,I need to know, from you 38LF owners, where in the mast step your mast is positioned.Right now my mast is all the way aft in the step but I can see that the mast was positioned in the step farther forward at one time.The only reason that it is all the way aft is because that is where the workers in the yard put it.Any ideas about how the boat would sail if the mast was positioned all the way forward as opposed to all the way aft? I have seen adjustments for moving the mast in it's step on some sports boats.Frank NoragonCC 38LF, s/n 001Rose City Yacht ClubPortland, Oregon ___Email address:CnC-List@cnc-list.comTo change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at:http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com___ Email address: CnC-List@cnc-list.com To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go to the bottom of page at: http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
